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From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Long Range Game Designs
Date:	Thu, 17 Jul 1997 22:07:22 -0400

Message no. 1 In a message dated 97-07-17 19:25:45 EDT, topcat@***.NET (TopCat) writes:

>
> If you make the characters before teh setting, you can have continuity and
> association problems (why would an ex-Wildcat hang out with an ex-SEAL and
a
> mage from Tir Tairngire). You can also run into power-level problems
(Troll
> Tank and GBD join a group of gangers...ugh).
>
>
Ya know TC, that whole attitude is a bit strange, but then again we are
talking about the differences in GM approach I think. Sometimes, especially
when the group is really flexible, the ex-Wildcat, the ex-Seal and mage from
Tir getting together can be a really shit-kicking game in and unto itself.
Oh, and by the way, I don't know what kind of stats your examples would
have, but they are -MOST- definitely not the average shadowrunner according
to the examples you've given.

-Keith (who just had to get a quick jibe in somewhere ;)

From:	TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Long Range Game Designs
Date:	Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:38:56 -0500

Message no. 2 At 10:07 PM 7/17/97 -0400, Keith wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-17 19:25:45 EDT, topcat@***.NET (TopCat) writes:
>>If you make the characters before teh setting, you can have continuity and
>>association problems (why would an ex-Wildcat hang out with an ex-SEAL and
>>a mage from Tir Tairngire). You can also run into power-level problems
>>(Troll Tank and GBD join a group of gangers...ugh).

>Ya know TC, that whole attitude is a bit strange, but then again we are
>talking about the differences in GM approach I think. Sometimes, especially
>when the group is really flexible, the ex-Wildcat, the ex-Seal and mage from
>Tir getting together can be a really shit-kicking game in and unto itself.

Okay, here's how this would look... ex-Wildcat finds an ex-SEAL and they
want to work together. Couldn't find two groups perhaps more opposed to
each other (NAN and CAS). Throw in a Tir mage (everyone hates the elves)
and it's a party! There's no real reason for them to be together (and yes,
anyone can come up with some BS story that'll link 'em, but BS by any other
name still stinks).

> Oh, and by the way, I don't know what kind of stats your examples would
>have, but they are -MOST- definitely not the average shadowrunner according
>to the examples you've given.

Ahh, but Shadowrun isn't just for Shadowrunners anymore (kinda like beer and
breakfast that way)... I think we all know that much by now. Also, in
comparison to some of the things I've seen posted here, GBD and Troll Tank
might well mesh right into a lot of campaigns out there.
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Long Range Game Designs
Date:	Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:35:25 GMT

Message no. 3 J. Keith Henry writes

> Okay, with this paragraph a very distinct question has arisen to me.
I snipped it but Topcat does have some reasonable things to say,
unfortunately i don't have the time to wade through the volume when
someone sets him off (usually because he misinterpreted what they
meant) getting 750 emails at once after a long weekend does not help
my reply rate any !

> How
> many people out there have a game scenario/series that is "neverending"?
By
> that I mean that they don't just "get an idea" and design the idea then
have
> everyone make the characters. After the idea is over, the characters are put
> aside.
>
> I mean the games with no end-game in sight.
I generally always aim to have campains run on open ended. Mind the
campain world i'm presently using is more than 1 campain old now and
managing! i haven't had to clone planet Earth (or even just Seattle)
yet (though i might have too see how things go).

> I have a campaign line that has
> been in existence, in one form or another, for over 6 years now. It's seen
> nearly 34 players (yeah, I sat down and counted all of these) and I don't
> know how many different characters (that may be 50% again the above number).
> There are 4 players that are still here (talk about -CORE-) and they can
> handle nearly fragging anything, and even with a hint of style from time to
> time (wondering what definition of style they use however).
>
Yeah, i had one group run for 22 months before after quite a few
player changeabouts i pulled the plug as the knowledge of the players
drifting into the game could no longer cope with the very climbing
Karma totals. So i started the campain again from 0 karma which they
were in a better position to cope with, then started another campain
in the same campain world as well, the last is still running.

I forget how many players and characters have been involved but not
close to your 34! though total campain up time is approaching 3 years
and i am using stuff developed up to and including over a year before
that as background :)

Some of the bad guys are still about, the corporation behind the
first run the first lot did is still busy annoying PC's, they might
get around to visiting them yet, i think villans with beta move-by-
wire 4 annoyed some characters :), Jurazez after he showed up is
still surviving though he's been unconcious due to well placed fists
more than a few times, not a popular chap but when he shows up with a
dozen FBI limos and a company of national guard in tow sometimes (and
it was PC property PC's had just trashed) you can imaging they daren't
use bullets.
There are even good guys that have lasted that long, The NPC mage i
mention sometimes started as a reasonable sub 200 karma NPC at the
beginning, last time he was supposedly seen (with a pack of
Aztechnology hired Mercs moving in for a 10Millon yen bounty, PC's
should be careful what they hand folks without checking the
fusion-ability of the contents) he was on over 900 and very hard.

> Talking about "Detective Games" or "Combat Games" or
"Artifact Games" has
> just made me realize that the characters I've had around me, both my own and
> others, might be really close to damn unique.
Yeah i've had all sorts of runs. Including saving the govenor, then
the next party got hired to find out what the military grade shootout
at her place was all about :), ie what where the last lot of PC's
doing firing ATGM's at Shultz's and getting patted on the back by her
for it.
Pc's have been hired to swap 'the crate in the lorry with the one in
the Ares spaceplane' ['Johnson' neglecting to mention crate 1
contained a dead Horror the campain worlds first campain had blown up
and the second lot had given him after they got the remains off the
FBI, and crate 2 contained a Thor Satellite, Ares were not impressed
though they never ID'ed most of them and some of those PC's now have
fractions of Dunk's 1% in Ares]

> The character of my own (there
> have been 4 GM's to the line btw) I mentioned a while back with 3000+ game
> hours is a case in point.
Yikes!

> -Keith (who is really wondering if the definition of -Power- is well and
> truly understood)
>
Yeah.
I have seen characters that were legal (yes actually rules legal) by
the starting rules that were more 'munchkinous' that the guy with
delta move by wire 3! [which he paid for having earnt the money by
being clever]

Mark

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Long Range Game Designs
Date:	Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:34:47 +0100

Message no. 4 In message <199707180438.XAA05898@*******.fgi.net>, TopCat
<topcat@***.NET> writes
>Okay, here's how this would look... ex-Wildcat finds an ex-SEAL and they
>want to work together. Couldn't find two groups perhaps more opposed to
>each other (NAN and CAS). Throw in a Tir mage (everyone hates the elves)
>and it's a party! There's no real reason for them to be together (and yes,
>anyone can come up with some BS story that'll link 'em, but BS by any other
>name still stinks).

No need for a story... They've been hired individually and only meet up
when the job starts.

GM sits back and watches the fur fly :)

Fun for a one-off, but it wouldn't work as a campaign. They might get
the mission completed, but here I agree with Bob: I don't see a trio
like that volunteering to work together, nor staying as a team for a
moment longer than absolutely necessary.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Long Range Game Designs
Date:	Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:05:24 -0400

Message no. 5 In a message dated 97-07-18 00:39:12 EDT, topcat@***.NET writes:

>
> Okay, here's how this would look... ex-Wildcat finds an ex-SEAL and they
> want to work together. Couldn't find two groups perhaps more opposed to
> each other (NAN and CAS). Throw in a Tir mage (everyone hates the elves)
> and it's a party! There's no real reason for them to be together (and
yes,
> anyone can come up with some BS story that'll link 'em, but BS by any
other
> name still stinks).

I'm not really certain I would have used something so quick, but I realize
that you are just example giving "on the fly". I would have wondered
"why"
the Wildcat and Seal are "ex", and what's with the Tir mage joining up. Look
at the potential linkups between Damien Knight and that one Sioux Mage (damn,
the one time I forget something).

> Ahh, but Shadowrun isn't just for Shadowrunners anymore (kinda like beer
and
> breakfast that way)... I think we all know that much by now. Also, in
> comparison to some of the things I've seen posted here, GBD and Troll Tank
> might well mesh right into a lot of campaigns out there.

On that note, true...but where do you set the Beer? Oh yeah, I remember now,
the "Cybermug", able to contain internally in your favorite cyberlimb for a
fraction of the space necessary (Volume???). Keep it cold for an indefinite
time just by adding in the "Netcooler", using the latest in pressured
Nitrogen (and it makes a really -cool- weapon to boot).
-Keith

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