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Message no. 1
From: laughingman%cityweb.de laughingman@*******.de
Subject: Long Rant regarding Samies after Man&Machine(Sorry Gridsec)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 02:55:22 +0100
First, appologies to everyone for the longiness of this post.

Alright, Now I am back, and germany has the new sourcebook Man and Machine.
After some quick skims through I must say that I am pleased with the final
volume of it. IMO FASA did a great job, though a bit late ;o). I realy am
satisfied and for me it is alright that the flavor text and the Shadowtalk
has been kicked out or reduced. The Volume is exactly that what it states, a
Compendium everything regarding metahumanity and it's advances in Bio-Cyber
and related.
Now that I gotten the Yabbadabba's out of me, back into my DuDu-mode.
I have seen the new or better, adjusted Combatsystem. It took away the
advantage for the Cyberenhanced to shoot or outrun the opposition before
they could have reacted. That was fine to me as the new system was to my
liking and gave and gives a new thrill to the game.
They gave the Riggers and the Deckers something to toy with, and those toys
were fine indeed, adding new possibilities to the game.
They have made the Physad an opponent to be reckoned with, they made the
Physads stronger than ever before. That was fine to me as these were in the
old system a bit underpowered to say the least.
The Magicians were more or less been left as they were, discussion about
this point is more than granted but under the bottomline magicians were
nearly as powerfull as they were under SR2nd. with some cosmetic changes
IMO.
Granted, the Riggers and Deckers there already enhanced during the SR2nd.
overhaul, but we will leave this out of this rant.
But now to my point. Do the gals and guys at FASA want to extinguish the
pure Sam? Do they want to elevate the Magician or the Adept to be the Runner
of the Future?
Why this you ask? One simple point: Money.
Cyberware, Bioware, all the toys for the decker and the rigger cost money,
and not very small credsticks they need to operate at a level that is
satisfiing. And I do not mean the obvisious MBW-boys coming with Cybered
Skulls and Tactical Computers, augmented by cultured enhanced Artikulation
with the omnipresent suprhydroid gland. Even a simple Wired Reflexes II cost
basically 165 K Nuyen, add those Smartlink accesories to it throw in a
simple datajack plus eyereplacement and there you are. Got a basic
Shadowrunner, or to look at FASA, a normal Streetganger. The Magician, if he
is hermetic, the shaman is even more priceless, needs something around XXX
to get his library for Sorcery and another XXX for the conjuring library.
That is it. After that he is ready to rock and roll on a basis that is
acceptable for quite some time without cutting into cashreserves too
quickly. As said, if you have a shaman it is more satisfing to see the other
teammates horde money for the next upgrade, repair, library etc.
A Sam need money to work. As he is most of the time the one that gets hit
when the drek hits the fan he needs it desperatly to keep operating
strength. If a system gets crashed he has to pay for the repair, ranging
from 490 if the doc knows were to look up and not have to make some
diagnostics and up to 1140+ without the costs for laying in a hospital . All
calculations are based on a Biotech (6) doc. And this is just for one
system, more costs can be assumed for evil GM's (tm) and for more damaged,
or better, "stressed" Cyberwaresystems. Also the maintanence costs for the
Cyberware, meaning one stresspoint after some months are an anoiance, as
that damn stresspoint brings the good Cyberwarepart into a used thing, as
the first stresspoint can not be repaired. It all comes even harder if you
use the, of course optional, rules from the SRComp3rd. for SOTA. Then you
have to be afraid of paing hefty nuyen once a year. And with those rules a
Rigger is the one that is most shot into the head, he needs to pay real
nuyen. Annyway, my point is, other than roleplaying, why should I take the
risk of playing a cybered dude while the Physad has all the boni on his
side? Or the Wizzkid, if he is shaman he only needs to pay for the formulas
and if he wants to for a teacher. All things that are equally usable for
every Skill. Heck, even regarding roleplaying.
Why should I play a Sam, someone who allways lacks social graces, or at
least it is more difficult for him to talk his way out of something without
letting the guns/spurs-you-name-it speak? Why should I play a Sam that
almost always gets a look from every damn magician with some mumblings about
selling his soul? And why should I play a Sam when the very core out of what
he exists, the Cyber/Bioware costs him mucho Nuyen on a regular basis while
the Mojoslingers don't? Why should I play when going even into a simple Mall
can be a whole adventure with Cyberscanners readily availabe to the
Security?
Mages and Physads do not have those problems, to see that someone is a
Wizzer or Physad you got to have a Wizzer or similar at your disposal, and
those, as everyone reading this far (;o)) must admit are not likely standard
equipment "installed" at most malls.
So to come to a conclusion, Sams, are nice to play, and the rules reflect
real nice (no pun, I mean it) the troubles regarding such invasive actions
like cyberware or bioware and the outcome of it. I realy like them but to be
honest I think they are on the long haul underpowered, as there sole
existence costs more money than that of a mage. Yes I know, if you don't
like it, change it, but I would have wished, that the Magical Characters
would need some money to even these essential maintanencecosts out, some
costly materials, regular studies costing money, maybe even some needed
drugs to keep going to those astral quests. But as I see it, most of the new
players, and that is my original concern, will go for a magician or physad
with some slight modifications, like a Smartlink II and Bioware to the
extend.
My intention is that the gamesystem is not well balanced in the end,
sams/decker/rigger are too expansive. I know that I leave those powerfoci
costs out of this, but than if you need your focus to do your work, than you
are not that good a mojoslinger anymore.
Maybe I see that as a problem because I see on a regular basis new players
generate every possible thing to get the superhuman character. That is
because I work in a fantasyshop and I have to listen to those players who
tell me how great the Char is they have. How cool he rocks and so on, and so
on. Maybe it is tough luck, maybe Berlin has all the munchkins, but many of
the players want to actually use the toys that they are given, and the real
tough Cyberware costs mucho, while the real tough magic costs not that
mucho, not the least. And lastly, Magicians might need Karma for becoming
better, but one can get Karma even if the Run is a total hose, while money
only comes with success.
Pfuh, having said this I really know that I might offend Gridsec to some
extent, and my appologies to everyone again that have a slow connection. But
I realy must've said this. But I still will go on playing Sams, simply
because they are one of those things that make the Genre alive, and of
course, because I am good enough not to get hit too often.
;o)

---> Steadfast: Breaking a lance for the
Sammies of the world.
Message no. 2
From: Brent Smith Lucius@****.com
Subject: Long Rant regarding Samies after Man&Machine(Sorry Gridsec)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:11:25 -0600
>As said, if you have a shaman it is more satisfing to see the other
>teammates horde money for the next upgrade, repair, library etc.
>A Sam need money to work. As he is most of the time the one that gets hit
>when the drek hits the fan he needs it desperatly to keep operating
>strength. If a system gets crashed he has to pay for the repair, ranging
>from 490 if the doc knows were to look up and not have to make some
>diagnostics and up to 1140+ without the costs for laying in a hospital .
All
>calculations are based on a Biotech (6) doc. And this is just for one
>system, more costs can be assumed for evil GM's (tm) and for more damaged,
>or better, "stressed" Cyberwaresystems.

IMHO I would recomend compensation for all basic medical expenses at the
very least from the Johnson. Guess that Negoation skill will come in
handy....

>Also the maintanence costs for the
>Cyberware, meaning one stresspoint after some months are an anoiance, as
>that damn stresspoint brings the good Cyberwarepart into a used thing, as
>the first stresspoint can not be repaired. It all comes even harder if you
>use the, of course optional, rules from the SRComp3rd. for SOTA. Then you
>have to be afraid of paing hefty nuyen once a year. And with those rules a
>Rigger is the one that is most shot into the head, he needs to pay real
>nuyen.

Negoatiate for more money before you say yes to the run... The money/
medical side of things can be compensated for by the GM. I remember in the
first edition of SR there was a very disturbing fact. There was no way to
really syphon money from players, as a result after 6 or 7 runs there was no
real monetary need go on runs. I like having the tool to use up that
resource pool, and encourage the players to keep running. As a GM I can
adjust the money, or the medical depending on the threat.

>Annyway, my point is, other than roleplaying, why should I take the
>risk of playing a cybered dude while the Physad has all the boni on his
>side? Or the Wizzkid, if he is shaman he only needs to pay for the formulas
>and if he wants to for a teacher. All things that are equally usable for
>every Skill.

Well to begin with you have MBW level 3 and 4... Do you realize with a SL2
and a laser sight targets for a called head shot become 2's? The sheer power
a Cybered individual is what makes the Sammi a staple in runner groups.
Mages as good as they are can't usually take the brunt of an opposing
cybered force. They tend to loose if not to numbers to sheer firepower. I
supercybered individual can hold off a small contengent, untill the mages
show up. Its a balance you will fail as a team if you don't have both

> Heck, even regarding roleplaying.Why should I play a Sam, someone who
allways lacks social graces, or >at least it is more difficult for him to
talk his way out of something without
>letting the guns/spurs-you-name-it speak?

The image of the grunting Sam is a architypical one. Its inspired by the
"trideos". I have seen Very intelligent Sams who are social and fun, I've
seen the quiet ones who you don't know what cards he's got up his sleeve,
the type of mentalitys are as various as real life. Its the Newbys with the
munchkinism complex that lick their blades while negotiating with the
Johnson, one which in my games can cause the group to loos the job. In short
a Sam can be a professional, and not a freak with a bad case of penis envy.

>Why should I play a Sam that
>almost always gets a look from every damn magician with some mumblings
about
>selling his soul? And why should I play a Sam when the very core out of
what
>he exists, the Cyber/Bioware costs him mucho Nuyen on a regular basis while
>the Mojoslingers don't? Why should I play when going even into a simple
Mall
>can be a whole adventure with Cyberscanners readily availabe to the
Security?

With the right masking these things can be overcome. Ever hide your wired
with a trigger and have a decker forage a permit for Wired reflexes L1? Be
creative instead of taking what society throws at you character. Your a runn
er you tend to violate laws anyway.

>Mages and Physads do not have those problems, to see that someone is a
>Wizzer or Physad you got to have a Wizzer or similar at your disposal, and
>those, as everyone reading this far (;o)) must admit are not likely
standard
>equipment "installed" at most malls.


Think of all the Really Nasty Crap a good gm can inflict on his Magically
active players, and as a bonus with magic you get to violate the rules of
reality. Magic is the one thing in the SR universe that doesent have to
govern itself by the rules of "near realism". The mages can have it yucky
too. Ever seen a mage being hunted because he summoned a fire elementals
brother, and th the brother was killed so now this elemental has gone free
and is looking for blood....Thats just a though off the top of my head,
immagine a GM who is even more creative.

>Maybe I see that as a problem because I see on a regular basis new players
>generate every possible thing to get the superhuman character. That is
>because I work in a fantasyshop and I have to listen to those players who
>tell me how great the Char is they have. How cool he rocks and so on, and
so
>on. Maybe it is tough luck, maybe Berlin has all the munchkins, but many of
>the players want to actually use the toys that they are given, and the real
>tough Cyberware costs mucho, while the real tough magic costs not that
>mucho, not the least. And lastly, Magicians might need Karma for becoming
>better, but one can get Karma even if the Run is a total hose, while money
>only comes with success.
Last shot, Get half up front...lol Other than that remind them that
reguardless of dice you can never have more successes than the force of the
spell. That means by and large a guy in Light sec Armor and a helmit is
going to bounce most force 6 or less spells.
Live well, Die better...
Brent
Message no. 3
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Long Rant regarding Samies after Man&Machine(Sorry Gridsec)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:36:01 -0500
From: "Brent Smith" <Lucius@****.com>
> >As said, if you have a shaman it is more satisfing to see the other
> >teammates horde money for the next upgrade, repair, library etc.
> >A Sam need money to work. As he is most of the time the one that gets hit
> >when the drek hits the fan he needs it desperatly to keep operating
> >strength. If a system gets crashed he has to pay for the repair, ranging
> >from 490 if the doc knows were to look up and not have to make some
> >diagnostics and up to 1140+ without the costs for laying in a hospital .
> All
> >calculations are based on a Biotech (6) doc. And this is just for one
> >system, more costs can be assumed for evil GM's (tm) and for more
damaged,
> >or better, "stressed" Cyberwaresystems.
>
> IMHO I would recomend compensation for all basic medical expenses at the
> very least from the Johnson. Guess that Negoation skill will come in
> handy....

Stupid Johnson to take that offer; not only is it in his vested interest for
you to be careful, but when you're a criminal for a living, there's
something called assuption of risk. It's why freelancers exist.

> >Also the maintanence costs for the
> >Cyberware, meaning one stresspoint after some months are an anoiance, as
> >that damn stresspoint brings the good Cyberwarepart into a used thing, as
> >the first stresspoint can not be repaired. It all comes even harder if
you
> >use the, of course optional, rules from the SRComp3rd. for SOTA. Then you
> >have to be afraid of paing hefty nuyen once a year. And with those rules
a
> >Rigger is the one that is most shot into the head, he needs to pay real
> >nuyen.
>
> Negoatiate for more money before you say yes to the run... The money/
> medical side of things can be compensated for by the GM. I remember in the
> first edition of SR there was a very disturbing fact. There was no way to
> really syphon money from players, as a result after 6 or 7 runs there was
no
> real monetary need go on runs. I like having the tool to use up that
> resource pool, and encourage the players to keep running. As a GM I can
> adjust the money, or the medical depending on the threat.

Huh? I certainly never had that problem, and I was playing the mage, who
seldom needed money for much of anything. How much were you paying these
people?

> >Annyway, my point is, other than roleplaying, why should I take the
> >risk of playing a cybered dude while the Physad has all the boni on his
> >side? Or the Wizzkid, if he is shaman he only needs to pay for the
formulas
> >and if he wants to for a teacher. All things that are equally usable for
> >every Skill.
>
> Well to begin with you have MBW level 3 and 4... Do you realize with a SL2
> and a laser sight targets for a called head shot become 2's? The sheer
power
> a Cybered individual is what makes the Sammi a staple in runner groups.
> Mages as good as they are can't usually take the brunt of an opposing
> cybered force. They tend to loose if not to numbers to sheer firepower. I
> supercybered individual can hold off a small contengent, untill the mages
> show up. Its a balance you will fail as a team if you don't have both

Er, has something changed? Something stupid? I was under the impression that
Smartlink and laser sights were incompatible. After all, they do the same
thing, essentially.

It also depends on the range, obviously. Let's face it, with Smartlink 2, at
point-blank range, it shouldn't be very hard to hit someone in the head.

> <snip>
> Last shot, Get half up front...lol Other than that remind them that
> reguardless of dice you can never have more successes than the force of
the
> spell. That means by and large a guy in Light sec Armor and a helmit is
> going to bounce most force 6 or less spells.

Unless they're combat spells, in which case, recall, armor doesn't count.
Message no. 4
From: 00DNA mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: Long Rant regarding Samies after Man&Machine(Sorry Gridsec)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 12:40:20 -0500
At 11:11 AM 12/2/99 -0600, Brent Smith wrote:

Agreed with everything you said Brent except for a couple of nitpicking
things...

>Well to begin with you have MBW level 3 and 4... Do you realize with a SL2
>and a laser sight targets for a called head shot become 2's? The sheer power
>a Cybered individual is what makes the Sammi a staple in runner groups.

How do you get 2's for TNs on a called shot? First, a laser sight can't be
used with Smartlink.
If the TN is normally 4, SL lowers that to TN 2, then the SL2 is only +2
(instead of the normal +4), so the TN = 4, not 2. Still that's excellent
for a called shot, just wondering how you figure it's TN =2


Last shot, Get half up front...lol Other than that remind them that
>reguardless of dice you can never have more successes than the force of the
>spell. That means by and large a guy in Light sec Armor and a helmit is
>going to bounce most force 6 or less spells.

How do you figure that Armor bounces back spells? For combat spells Armor
is ignored all together, and for Elemental Manipulation spells the Armor is
half value...(I believe it's half value, I could be wrong on that).
But even if someone is wearing a lot of armor, armor never makes the spell
sizzle. If it's a combat spell, the person resists with Body or Willpower
and if they roll more successes than the spellcaster, then the spell
doesn't work, Armor's no factor there. If it's a manipulation spell, as
long as the spellcaster gets a success the spell goes off and then it's
treated like Range Combat, so you roll to resist where Armor can help
somewhat but it doesn't guarantee you protection. And of course as I said
Powerbolt or Manabolt ignores armor anyway.


--00DNA
"...user connection terminated."
Message no. 5
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Long Rant regarding Samies after Man&Machine(Sorry Gridsec)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:47:09 +0100
According to 00DNA, at 12:40 on 2 Dec 99, the word on
the street was...

> How do you get 2's for TNs on a called shot? First, a laser sight can't be
> used with Smartlink.
> If the TN is normally 4, SL lowers that to TN 2, then the SL2 is only +2
> (instead of the normal +4), so the TN = 4, not 2. Still that's excellent
> for a called shot, just wondering how you figure it's TN =2

Easy enough to do by aiming for two Simple Actions before pulling the
trigger.

> How do you figure that Armor bounces back spells? For combat spells Armor
> is ignored all together, and for Elemental Manipulation spells the Armor is
> half value...(I believe it's half value, I could be wrong on that).

It uses half its Impact rating to resist such spells, yes.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
When you've seen how big the world is, how can you make do with this?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: Brent Smith Lucius@****.com
Subject: Long Rant regarding Samies after Man&Machine(Sorry Gridsec)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:21:48 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: Long Rant regarding Samies after Man&Machine(Sorry Gridsec)

>Stupid Johnson to take that offer; not only is it in his vested interest
for
>you to be careful, but when you're a criminal for a living, there's
>something called assuption of risk. It's why freelancers exist.
>

>Huh? I certainly never had that problem, and I was playing the mage, who
>seldom needed money for much of anything. How much were you paying these
>people?


Keep in mind I said first ed. I'm talking like when the only thing that
existed was 1 book and a gms screen. There weren't any benchmarks for money,
so some of the runs were pretty payable, of course that was for a 6 man
team. And the risks were in some cases worse than they are now.

>Er, has something changed? Something stupid? I was under the impression
that
>Smartlink and laser sights were incompatible. After all, they do the same
>thing, essentially.

Sorry meant range finder...

>Unless they're combat spells, in which case, recall, armor doesn't count.
True, I will consceed that point...
Message no. 7
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Long Rant regarding Samies after Man&Machine(Sorry Gridsec)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:47:42 -0500
From: "Brent Smith" <Lucius@****.com>
>
> From: abortion_engine >
> >Huh? I certainly never had that problem, and I was playing the mage, who
> >seldom needed money for much of anything. How much were you paying these
> >people?
>
> Keep in mind I said first ed. I'm talking like when the only thing that
> existed was 1 book and a gms screen. There weren't any benchmarks for
money,
> so some of the runs were pretty payable, of course that was for a 6 man
> team. And the risks were in some cases worse than they are now.

Well, that's what I was talking about, too. When we started, we had just the
BBB1, and the GM just set the payment to basically what would keep me barely
alive; otherwise, I'd be making too much, and would have no real reason to
get shot at for a living. We certainly didn't stockpile money; I could
barely afford my lifestyle and ammo.

Of course, my GM actually thought this all through first, which may have a
lot to do with it. He's a little crazy about stuff like that.

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