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Message no. 1
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen_Hubert)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:00:26 +0200
I was thumbing through my copy of Transhuman Space recently (a great
book that everybody should take a look at, and I'm not just saying
this because my name is in it...), and was struck again how _staid_
the tech in Shadowrun is. Yes, the Sixth World had the Crash, but even
so, technology should be further along than it is. After all,
cyberpunk is supposed to be about future shock. Here are just a few
things from TS that I'd like to see in Shadowrun in the future...

(Disclaimer: I don't think that these should neccessarily become
"canon" or something like that. I'm just throwing a few suggestions
out for open discussion - by all means, feel free to disagree with
me!)

- (Meta)Human cloning: In "State of the Art: 2063" we have noted
biotech expert KAM post on page 16:

"Stories still persist of people trying to create clones of
themselves, though there are no reliable reports of success. [...] I
think it's probably a good thing that it's still in the realm of
science fiction."

Excuse me? We've cloned mammals back in the 20th century. And organic
replacement limbs are made out of cloned tissue! And yet the
scientists of the Sixth World haven't managed to create a viable clone
of (meta)humans?

Personally, I expect viable human clones to appear before Awakening
Day, and by 2063, it might just be seen as yet another form of
producing offspring - along with gene splicing that allow same-sex
partners to have children. Which leads us to...

- (Meta)Human Genetic Engineering: SOTA:2063 provided a start here,
although only a truely devious GM should consider allowing his players
to have been genetically modified before birth (a 25% cost reduction?
Better use this as a plot hook, or else all players will want it...).
However, I'd like the relevant cons to marked "upgrade templates",
which would, in effect, be new, artificial metahuman races. These
wouldn't have any in-game effect any time soon, as such "upgrades"
will be very, very young (and thus not viable as PCs unless a player
wants to play an otaku...), but their abilities should go a bit beyond
SOTA:2053 - possibly including even an intelligence increase.

This serves mostly as a reminder to the PCs that there are big things
going on around them. Add in as much Transhumanist Angst as you want
("Are we going to be obsolote in another generation?")

For that matter, I'd like scientists to discover the genes responsible
for metahuman expressions. This probably won't change anything for
metahumans who are already born - but for the right amount of money,
it _will_ be possible to change the future metatype of a fertilized
egg cell. In other words, ork parents could get a human child with
this technology - or human parents an elven child.

This serves as yet another source of conflict in the Sixth World.
Imagine all the ethical controvery revolving around abortion - and
increase it by another order of magnitude. Metahuman rights
organisations will be up in arms, while human racists will be split
between "progressives", who want to genengineer metahumans out of
existence, and "conservatives", who see human genetic engineering as
as "unnatural" as metahumans, and would rather settle for all-out
genocide and euthanasia... Watch the sparks fly, and get highly paid
runs as each side tries to influence legislators in various countries
to allow/ban this technology...

(I'd like to note, however, that I don't think there is a "mage gene",
since there's no clear split between those who can use magic and those
who don't in Earthdawn - it seems to be more a matter of training, or
lack thereof, than anything else. Perhaps in the yet relatively
"magic-poor" Sixth World only those who grow up in the "right"
environment express themselves as mages...).

Artificial Intelligence: I'd like to blur the lines between the most
powerful human-made programs and the über-powerful AIs like Deus,
Mirage, and Megara. There should be room for smaller (and thus, more
mobile) that are roughly of human intelligence, or perhaps slightly
below that - but still self-aware. A good decker _should_ be able to
best one of the weaker ones.

An even weaker form would be "Web Life", evolved programs and viruses
which use the resources of the Matrix to survive, thrive, and
replicate - and aren't more intelligent than an animal. These could be
quite nasty to a decker in a pinch - after all, those who aren't at
least somewhat proficient at hacking don't survive for long - but they
lack the spark of self-awareness (though one of them could certainly
_become_ self-aware...).

- Augmented Reality: In Transhuman Space, pretty much every
manufactured object has a small chip and a small radio (or equivalent)
transmitter embedded into it that allows anyone looking at it with a
computer and a reciever (either in a pair of VR glasses or an implant)
to learn what it is, how you can use it, and where it is. Shop signs
might also have them - in this case, the shop has a "virtual shop
sign" that can only be seen with the right equipment...

I can see some of the more high-tech enclaves (Japan, Singaporte, the
Pueblo Corporate Council) to use such technologies, and this might
serve as a good reminder just how far technology can change everyday
life...


Well, that's it for now. What are your thoughts on these? Any
additional suggestions for future technological developments in the
Sixth World?


- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html
Message no. 2
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (Graht)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 10:38:53 -0600
At 06:00 PM 6/12/2003 +0200, Jürgen Hubert wrote:
>I was thumbing through my copy of Transhuman Space recently (a great
>book that everybody should take a look at, and I'm not just saying
>this because my name is in it...), and was struck again how _staid_
>the tech in Shadowrun is. Yes, the Sixth World had the Crash, but even
>so, technology should be further along than it is. After all,
>cyberpunk is supposed to be about future shock. Here are just a few
>things from TS that I'd like to see in Shadowrun in the future...
>
>(Disclaimer: I don't think that these should neccessarily become
>"canon" or something like that. I'm just throwing a few suggestions
>out for open discussion - by all means, feel free to disagree with
>me!)
>
>- (Meta)Human cloning: In "State of the Art: 2063" we have noted
>biotech expert KAM post on page 16:
>
>"Stories still persist of people trying to create clones of
>themselves, though there are no reliable reports of success. [...] I
>think it's probably a good thing that it's still in the realm of
>science fiction."
>
>Excuse me? We've cloned mammals back in the 20th century. And organic
>replacement limbs are made out of cloned tissue! And yet the
>scientists of the Sixth World haven't managed to create a viable clone
>of (meta)humans?

It could be argued that scientists of the Sixth World have magic and
essence to deal with. Today, Dolly was easy. But after the awakening
maybe something changed so that cloning became harder. Essence certainly
isn't a problem in our world, but it's a given issue in the Sixth
World. Maybe clones can't be made because the original body has all of the
essence tied to it and the clone, a living being which requires essence to
live, doesn't get any essence because the essence that is a match for it is
already being used.

Imagine making an original sculpture. You want to make another sculpture
just like it. You've got plenty of material, but for whatever reason your
only source of bracing is inside the original sculpture. If you want to
make another sculpture, you'll have to take the bracing out of the original
sculpture.

>- (Meta)Human Genetic Engineering: SOTA:2063 provided a start here,
>although only a truely devious GM should consider allowing his players
>to have been genetically modified before birth (a 25% cost reduction?

Oh, I would allow it. Of course, someone paid for the modification, so
technically someone owns a piece of them. Who? Well... <egmg>.

>For that matter, I'd like scientists to discover the genes responsible
>for metahuman expressions. This probably won't change anything for
>metahumans who are already born - but for the right amount of money,
>it _will_ be possible to change the future metatype of a fertilized
>egg cell. In other words, ork parents could get a human child with
>this technology - or human parents an elven child.

In my opinion metahuman expression is also tied to magic and essence. So
in order for ork parents to have an elven child they would require some
major mojo to remove the magical aspect of the ork metahuman expression
from the egg and sperm and replace it with an elven expression.

--
To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
Message no. 3
From: flakjacket@***********.com (flakjacket@***********.com)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:41:23 +0100 (BST)
Jurgen Hubert wrote:

> - (Meta)Human cloning: In "State of the Art: 2063" we have noted
> biotech expert KAM post on page 16:
>
> "Stories still persist of people trying to create clones of
> themselves, though there are no reliable reports of success. [...] I
> think it's probably a good thing that it's still in the realm of
> science fiction."
>
> Excuse me? We've cloned mammals back in the 20th century. And organic
> replacement limbs are made out of cloned tissue! And yet the
> scientists of the Sixth World haven't managed to create a viable clone
> of (meta)humans?

IIRC, the general Shadowrun version was that while you could easily clone metahuman
physical bodies for things like replacements parts without any problems, they can't yet
get the personality/psychological side as well yet. So by all means clone yourself, you're
just left with a metahuman vegetable.
Message no. 4
From: ra002585@**.unicamp.br (Bira)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:17:45 -0300 (BRT)
ra002585@***.unicamp.br
>
> IIRC, the general Shadowrun version was that while you could easily clone metahuman
physical bodies for things like replacements parts without any problems, they can't yet
get the personality/psychological side as well yet. So by all means clone yourself, you're
just left with a metahuman vegetable.

Still, there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to get yourself a clone
baby and raise it the old-fashioned way... People wanting that would be
much more common than someone wanting exact copies.


--
Bira
http://www24.brinkster.com/shadowlandbr/index.html ou
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Message no. 5
From: iridios@********.net (Iridios)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 20:53:52 -0400
Jürgen Hubert wrote:

> - (Meta)Human cloning: In "State of the Art: 2063" we have noted
> biotech expert KAM post on page 16:
>
> "Stories still persist of people trying to create clones of
> themselves, though there are no reliable reports of success. [...] I
> think it's probably a good thing that it's still in the realm of
> science fiction."
>
> Excuse me? We've cloned mammals back in the 20th century.

Yes we've cloned mammals, but how many tries does it take to get 1
correct copy or even just a easily viable copy? In 60+ years it may
take less effort, but still present problems. Especially
considering the return of magic. (A human body is complex enough
without magic). Also considered the political and religious
opponents to cloning. They could easily hamper research by tying up
government policies.

> And organic replacement limbs are made out of cloned tissue!

Not all organic replacements are cloned. Some are donor parts (it's
cheaper)


> Personally, I expect viable human clones to appear before Awakening
> Day,

A viable human clone in the next 9 years (by SR timeline)? It took
188 attempts to achieve the first cloned cat. And that was in 2002,
how quickly will the tech advance to achieve viable human clones
without all the waste?




>
> An even weaker form would be "Web Life", evolved programs and viruses
> which use the resources of the Matrix to survive, thrive, and
> replicate - and aren't more intelligent than an animal.

I like this concept.

> - Augmented Reality: In Transhuman Space, pretty much every
> manufactured object has a small chip and a small radio (or equivalent)
> transmitter embedded into it that allows anyone looking at it with a
> computer and a reciever (either in a pair of VR glasses or an implant)
> to learn what it is, how you can use it, and where it is.

I think this idea could be very prevalent in the '60s. It wouldn't
be hard to do. It's almost possible now with the continuing
'growth' of wireless devices.

--
Iridios / http://iridios.bravepages.com

Top ten reasons to visit my new site:
6. Did I say, 'Because I said so'?
------------------------------------------------------
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RR rm= rr+ l- m=>- w--->= s=>*:= GM+:+(=):=[PF] hp!>+ LA= mf+ W+ C--(+) CG-
OG+ F= c->= K=(?)
------------------------------------------------------
This email has been verified by no one.
6/12/03
Message no. 6
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:06:03 +0200
Am Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:17:45 -0300 (BRT) hat Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
geschrieben:

> Still, there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to get yourself a clone
> baby and raise it the old-fashioned way... People wanting that would be
> much more common than someone wanting exact copies.

Since you will not get _exact_ copies of you, it is possible in pre-
awakende times (if the tech is availlable, and that is dounbtful for
anytime soon...), the matter gets much more complex since the world is
awakened. And I guess that (HInt: Plot Hook!) one corp or another is doing
decent (meta)magical research.

It is possible to drop below the essence, so why not create life without
essence?
But that won't happen so soon, and probably never will, as the impact on
the SR world would be extreme.
But then: You can install such tech for your camapign. What you need:
Biotech-Shop, Biotech (Cloning) 7 (You have to be close to a $deity), and
12 months time. The stuff would cost around 10,000,000 Nuyen for setup, and
1,000,000 Nuyen per copy made (Success rate at 5%).
Then go figure some problems: Mental illnesses, physical flaws (especially
constitution: The DNA is already decaying, thus the "starting" age for a
character would be + Original's age, maybe some years up or down, I could
imagine that elves and dwarfes take such treatment much easier than orks or
trolls, with humans being the average.

But I don't think that such tech will be implemented too soon (maybe in
Threats 3 ;-), much like the thing if there is a $deity or not in SR...

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster from Hell and GeneralIdiot

http://www.jack-ryan.de/shadowrun
The Linux ShadowRun Character Generator Developer's Mailinglist : LSRCG-
developers@***********.net
Message no. 7
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen_Hubert)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:07:44 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graht" <davidb@****.imcprint.com>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
>

> At 06:00 PM 6/12/2003 +0200, Jürgen Hubert wrote:
>
> >Excuse me? We've cloned mammals back in the 20th century. And
organic
> >replacement limbs are made out of cloned tissue! And yet the
> >scientists of the Sixth World haven't managed to create a viable
clone
> >of (meta)humans?
>
> It could be argued that scientists of the Sixth World have magic and
> essence to deal with. Today, Dolly was easy. But after the
awakening
> maybe something changed so that cloning became harder. Essence
certainly
> isn't a problem in our world, but it's a given issue in the Sixth
> World. Maybe clones can't be made because the original body has all
of the
> essence tied to it and the clone, a living being which requires
essence to
> live, doesn't get any essence because the essence that is a match
for it is
> already being used.

I don't know if I like this approach. As far as I see it, the return
of magic hasn't really changed the laws of physics - it just added
another layer of complexity. So technological feats that worked before
Awakening Day should still work afterwards.

Sure, you hear rumors about nukes failing to explode in various
Shadowtalk posts, but IMO that's just a rumor, and nothing more. The
Chicago bomb certainly went off, and its weird spread pattern can be
attributed to the shield spell the bug hive had going on...

> Imagine making an original sculpture. You want to make another
sculpture
> just like it. You've got plenty of material, but for whatever
reason your
> only source of bracing is inside the original sculpture. If you
want to
> make another sculpture, you'll have to take the bracing out of the
original
> sculpture.

Then what about twins? They have the same DNA, just like clones - but
it doesn't look like they have the same Essence...

> >- (Meta)Human Genetic Engineering: SOTA:2063 provided a start here,
> >although only a truely devious GM should consider allowing his
players
> >to have been genetically modified before birth (a 25% cost
reduction?
>
> Oh, I would allow it. Of course, someone paid for the modification,
so
> technically someone owns a piece of them. Who? Well... <egmg>.

That's the spirit! ;-)

> >For that matter, I'd like scientists to discover the genes
responsible
> >for metahuman expressions. This probably won't change anything for
> >metahumans who are already born - but for the right amount of
money,
> >it _will_ be possible to change the future metatype of a fertilized
> >egg cell. In other words, ork parents could get a human child with
> >this technology - or human parents an elven child.
>
> In my opinion metahuman expression is also tied to magic and
essence. So
> in order for ork parents to have an elven child they would require
some
> major mojo to remove the magical aspect of the ork metahuman
expression
> from the egg and sperm and replace it with an elven expression.

Well, there seems to be _some_ genetic factor involved, according to
the sourcebooks. So maybe you won't get an elf baby to orc parents -
but maybe a human baby...


- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html
Message no. 8
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen_Hubert)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:11:59 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bira" <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun


> ra002585@***.unicamp.br
> >
> > > IIRC, the general Shadowrun version was that while you could
easily clone metahuman physical bodies for things like
> > replacements parts without any problems, they can't yet get the
personality/psychological side as well yet. So by all means clone
> > yourself, you're just left with a metahuman vegetable.
> >
> > Still, there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to get yourself
a clone
> > baby and raise it the old-fashioned way... People wanting that
would be
> > much more common than someone wanting exact copies.

Which is what I was talking about. I don't expect any fast-growth
clones like those from Star Wars, but a clone baby is another matter -
and should be pretty simple to do...

As for the fast-growth clones... I think these would make great hosts
for certain kinds of spirits - shedim and bug spirits, to be precise,
especially the former.

After all, they are living bodies that just don't happen to have
souls. A master shedim might just use clones to clone and replace
people with "normal" shedim doppelgänger.


- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html
Message no. 9
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen Hubert)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:27:01 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Iridios" <iridios@********.net>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 2:53 AM
Subject: Re: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun


> Jürgen Hubert wrote:
>
> > - (Meta)Human cloning: In "State of the Art: 2063" we have noted
> > biotech expert KAM post on page 16:
> >
> > "Stories still persist of people trying to create clones of
> > themselves, though there are no reliable reports of success. [...]
I
> > think it's probably a good thing that it's still in the realm of
> > science fiction."
> >
> > Excuse me? We've cloned mammals back in the 20th century.
>
> Yes we've cloned mammals, but how many tries does it take to get 1
> correct copy or even just a easily viable copy? In 60+ years it may
> take less effort, but still present problems.

Well, there is a market (egocentrical managers and CEOs who believe
their "superior DNA" should be passed on undiluted, to name just one
example), and thus eventually someone will throw enough money at the
problem to make it work, no matter _how_ many tries it will take.

> Especially
> considering the return of magic. (A human body is complex enough
> without magic). Also considered the political and religious
> opponents to cloning. They could easily hamper research by tying up
> government policies.

Well, this _is_ the world of Shadowrun we are talking about. Just
don't announce this research to the outside world, and do it in an
extraterritorial con enclave...

> > And organic replacement limbs are made out of cloned tissue!
>
> Not all organic replacements are cloned. Some are donor parts (it's
> cheaper)

Though it does have its drawbacks, of course...

Anyway, the fact that cloned body parts are available at all proves
that cloning technologies are a _lot_ more advanced in 2063 than
today. With this in mind, putting cloned DNA into an egg cell should
_not_ present much of a problem...

> > Personally, I expect viable human clones to appear before
Awakening
> > Day,
>
> A viable human clone in the next 9 years (by SR timeline)? It took
> 188 attempts to achieve the first cloned cat. And that was in 2002,
> how quickly will the tech advance to achieve viable human clones
> without all the waste?

Who says it will be without any "waste"?

> > An even weaker form would be "Web Life", evolved programs and
viruses
> > which use the resources of the Matrix to survive, thrive, and
> > replicate - and aren't more intelligent than an animal.
>
> I like this concept.

And it makes sense. After all, we have all those smart frames, agents,
and semi-autonomous knowbots running around in the Matrix. Sooner or
later, someone will program one of them to be able to replicate (which
would also make sense - what will give you faster answers for your
research, one frame - or a hundred?). Add some form of "mutation" to
it (either programmed deliberately into it, or injected by a random
factor, such as a virus), and you have the start of an evolutionary
process.

And the "generations" among computer programs are a lot faster than
among biological entities, so these buggers could evolve very fast.

Oh, and I could easily imagine computer programmers to create
self-evolving programs on an isolated computer system as some kind of
intellectual excercise - after all, some are doing things like this
today. Now what happens if the computer system isn't quite as isolated
as they thought? Or perhaps a team of runner breaks in and the decker
decides to check out this weird isolated network - and carries
something home with him on his deck and connects to the Matrix before
he runs some diagnostic programs on his deck like he should...

> > - Augmented Reality: In Transhuman Space, pretty much every
> > manufactured object has a small chip and a small radio (or
equivalent)
> > transmitter embedded into it that allows anyone looking at it with
a
> > computer and a reciever (either in a pair of VR glasses or an
implant)
> > to learn what it is, how you can use it, and where it is.
>
> I think this idea could be very prevalent in the '60s. It wouldn't
> be hard to do. It's almost possible now with the continuing
> 'growth' of wireless devices.

I've recently begun reading through the Matrix sourcebook, and it
always says how everybody uses the Matrix, and not just deckers. This
technology is just the logical next step...


- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html
Message no. 10
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:44 +0200
Am Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:07:44 +0200 hat Jürgen Hubert <jhubert@***.de>
geschrieben:

> I don't know if I like this approach. As far as I see it, the return
> of magic hasn't really changed the laws of physics - it just added
> another layer of complexity. So technological feats that worked before
> Awakening Day should still work afterwards.

Oh, it wreaked havoc with physics. You can create matter out of nothing
(well, astral space) without going to speeds higher than c.

And I think I read (in M&M, I think, not sure), that complete cloning is
not possible for human bodies, just for organs.

> Sure, you hear rumors about nukes failing to explode in various
> Shadowtalk posts, but IMO that's just a rumor, and nothing more. The
> Chicago bomb certainly went off, and its weird spread pattern can be
> attributed to the shield spell the bug hive had going on...

And the niveau of amgic was quite low, too. It has increased since (Target:
Awakened Lands, for example).

> Then what about twins? They have the same DNA, just like clones - but
> it doesn't look like they have the same Essence...

*Like* clones. Twins are products from the same egg/sperm combo at the
point where the whole thing started. And that can make a big difference, as
both "get" their essence right from the start. Where as a clone would be a
disturbance, er, off-balance thingy when cloned. See it as accounting: You
are in deep trouble if another booking appears from nowhere for no special
reasons, where as you can be fine if the source is traceable.

You can argue that it can be done, therefore you know where it came from.
But does the mana know?

> Well, there seems to be _some_ genetic factor involved, according to
> the sourcebooks. So maybe you won't get an elf baby to orc parents -
> but maybe a human baby...

Possibly. But magic still plays a role in that, since the mana-niveau tipps
the thing off, basically.
That is mentioned in the SR3 main rule book.


--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster from Hell and GeneralIdiot

http://www.jack-ryan.de/shadowrun
The Linux ShadowRun Character Generator Developer's Mailinglist : LSRCG-
developers@***********.net
Message no. 11
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:17:50 +0200
Am Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:27:01 +0200 hat Jürgen Hubert <jhubert@***.de>
geschrieben:

> Well, this _is_ the world of Shadowrun we are talking about. Just
> don't announce this research to the outside world, and do it in an
> extraterritorial con enclave...

Ever read Threats 2 (Or Gefährliche 6. Welt in Germany, a compilation of
Threats 1 and 2)?

If those guys couldn't keep it secret, no megacon will keep it secret.
Heck, I don't think anything is safe from FastJack or a decent 'runner
team.

> Anyway, the fact that cloned body parts are available at all proves
> that cloning technologies are a _lot_ more advanced in 2063 than
> today. With this in mind, putting cloned DNA into an egg cell should
> _not_ present much of a problem...

No, activating the process of creating a new creature is the tricky part.
Cloning body organs is a cheap trick compared to that.
but i can think of somebody setting up a "human" from body parts, and using
some heavy (blood) mojo to animate that thing.

> And it makes sense. After all, we have all those smart frames, agents,
> and semi-autonomous knowbots running around in the Matrix. Sooner or
> later, someone will program one of them to be able to replicate (which
> would also make sense - what will give you faster answers for your
> research, one frame - or a hundred?).

One Frame. Only onething eats up hardware, and no loss due to communication
(or lack there of). A standard problem of MultiThreaded Programming. I
don't think that cahnged much in 2060's...

> Add some form of "mutation" to
> it (either programmed deliberately into it, or injected by a random
> factor, such as a virus), and you have the start of an evolutionary
> process.

Oh, ever read Matrix3, or were in the Renraku archology lately?

> Oh, and I could easily imagine computer programmers to create
> self-evolving programs on an isolated computer system as some kind of
> intellectual excercise - after all, some are doing things like this
> today.

Sounds like AEP of the Renrake Archology. A learning and adapting tool,
programmed to "foresee" the user's actions.

> Now what happens if the computer system isn't quite as isolated
> as they thought? Or perhaps a team of runner breaks in and the decker
> decides to check out this weird isolated network - and carries
> something home with him on his deck and connects to the Matrix before
> he runs some diagnostic programs on his deck like he should...

Then you have to look in some sourcebooks. (My players learned that AIs are
no fun to play with)

> I've recently begun reading through the Matrix sourcebook, and it
> always says how everybody uses the Matrix, and not just deckers. This
> technology is just the logical next step...

Skip to the back of Matrix, the AI chapter (check for your GM, if that
applies).


--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster from Hell and GeneralIdiot

http://www.jack-ryan.de/shadowrun
The Linux ShadowRun Character Generator Developer's Mailinglist : LSRCG-
developers@***********.net
Message no. 12
From: ra002585@**.unicamp.br (Bira)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:17:50 -0300
On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:44 +0200
Phillip Gawlowski <cmd_jackryan@***.net> wrote:

> Am Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:07:44 +0200 hat Jürgen Hubert <jhubert@***.de>
> geschrieben:
>
> > I don't know if I like this approach. As far as I see it, the return
> > of magic hasn't really changed the laws of physics - it just added
> > another layer of complexity. So technological feats that worked before
> > Awakening Day should still work afterwards.
>
> Oh, it wreaked havoc with physics. You can create matter out of nothing
> (well, astral space) without going to speeds higher than c.

But that's by using magic. The things you can do by using regular tech
weren't altered.

> And I think I read (in M&M, I think, not sure), that complete cloning is
> not possible for human bodies, just for organs.

Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, since cloning organs is harder
than cloning a whole body :).

--
Bira
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br ou
http://www24.brinkster.com/shadowlandbr/index.html
Message no. 13
From: ra002585@**.unicamp.br (Bira)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:17:51 -0300
On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:17:50 +0200
Phillip Gawlowski <cmd_jackryan@***.net> wrote:

> Am Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:27:01 +0200 hat Jürgen Hubert <jhubert@***.de>
> geschrieben:
>
> > Well, this _is_ the world of Shadowrun we are talking about. Just
> > don't announce this research to the outside world, and do it in an
> > extraterritorial con enclave...
>
> Ever read Threats 2 (Or Gefährliche 6. Welt in Germany, a compilation of
> Threats 1 and 2)?
>
> If those guys couldn't keep it secret, no megacon will keep it secret.
> Heck, I don't think anything is safe from FastJack or a decent 'runner
> team.

You don't even need a decker. As soon as the megacorps have somewhat
mature tech in their hands, they're going to start marketing it.

--
Bira
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br ou
http://www24.brinkster.com/shadowlandbr/index.html
Message no. 14
From: ra002585@**.unicamp.br (Bira)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:17:49 -0300
On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:06:03 +0200
Phillip Gawlowski <cmd_jackryan@***.net> wrote:

> Am Thu, 12 Jun 2003 19:17:45 -0300 (BRT) hat Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
> geschrieben:
>
> > Still, there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to get yourself a clone
> > baby and raise it the old-fashioned way... People wanting that would be
> > much more common than someone wanting exact copies.
>
> Since you will not get _exact_ copies of you, it is possible in pre-
> awakende times (if the tech is availlable, and that is dounbtful for
> anytime soon...), the matter gets much more complex since the world is
> awakened. And I guess that (HInt: Plot Hook!) one corp or another is doing
> decent (meta)magical research.

A clone would be another individual... I don't see why there should be
any problem with the Awakening. The worst thing that can happen is if
the metahuman "condition" and/or magic ability don't come from your
genes, and you end up getting a clone that's a different metatype than
the original, or doesn't have any power (or has then when the original
doesn't!).

This stuff about not being able to copy essence is something of a
cop-out, IMHO. Of course functional cloning technology would cause
extreme impact on the SR world... that's the point! The impact wouldn't
even be that extreme unless some sort of braintaping and forced growth
is also introduced. With just cloning, you can't create fully sentient
adults out of nothing in a year.

I don't see why the extreme requirements, either. That's how it's like
today, so in 2060 any clinic that treats reproductive issues can create
a clone zigote and implant it into a healthy woman. It's _much_ more
interesting if anyone with the right equipment can dabble in cloning in
their backyard - it opens up all sorts of fun plot hooks.

--
Bira
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br ou
http://www24.brinkster.com/shadowlandbr/index.html
Message no. 15
From: davidb@****.imcprint.com (Graht)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:40:05 -0600
At 11:17 AM 6/13/2003 -0300, Bira wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:44 +0200
>Phillip Gawlowski <cmd_jackryan@***.net> wrote:
>
> > And I think I read (in M&M, I think, not sure), that complete cloning is
> > not possible for human bodies, just for organs.
>
>Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, since cloning organs is harder
>than cloning a whole body :).

Here's an Illuminated thought.

What if cloning is possible but the Megas keep a tight lid on it, telling
everyone that it can't be done (claiming that there's an unknown magic
component now), because of fear of the ramifications of cloning. Kinda
like how the conspiracy theorists keep claiming that "they" know how to
make cheap synthetic gasoline but "they" won't, and "take care" of
anyone
who figures it out.

There's a lot of runs in that. The runners are hired to protect a
geneticists who says the Megas are after him because he found out how easy
it is to clone someone. Or, the runners are hired to steal the method of
cloning someone from a Mega.

--
To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
Message no. 16
From: aestus_preliator@*****.com (Sihr al Din)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:19:36 -0700 (PDT)
---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment


Jürgen_Hubert <jhubert@***.de> wrote:

<massive snip>

>Artificial Intelligence: I'd like to blur the lines between the most
>powerful human-made programs and the über-powerful AIs like Deus,
>Mirage, and Megara. There should be room for smaller (and thus, more
>mobile) that are roughly of human intelligence, or perhaps slightly
>below that - but still self-aware. A good decker _should_ be able to
>best one of the weaker ones.

>An even weaker form would be "Web Life", evolved programs and >viruses
which use the resources of the Matrix to survive, thrive, and
>replicate - and aren't more intelligent than an animal. These could be
>quite nasty to a decker in a pinch - after all, those who aren't at
>least somewhat proficient at hacking don't survive for long - but they
>lack the spark of self-awareness (though one of them could certainly
_become_ self-aware...).


This "web life" already exists, in the form of smart and dumb frames (although
these are usually directed by a decker). Also, SKs (semi-autonomous knowbots) are
essentially "lower" AI's. All you'd have to do is tweak them a little, so as to
make them independent of their creators.


>- Augmented Reality: In Transhuman Space, pretty much every
>manufactured object has a small chip and a small radio (or equivalent)
>transmitter embedded into it that allows anyone looking at it with a
>computer and a reciever (either in a pair of VR glasses or an implant)
>to learn what it is, how you can use it, and where it is. Shop signs
>might also have them - in this case, the shop has a "virtual shop
>sign" that can only be seen with the right equipment...

This could work, but then you'd have to have a constant wireless LAN (Wi-fi anybody?)
across the 'plex, which would be vulnerable to hacking and various other problems, the
least of which would be that it would be expensive as hell to keep running properly. Of
course, taxes could be raised to help defray the cost...forget it, I don't think it would
work, at least in the Shadowrun RPG.

<snip>

Sihr al Din


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
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Message no. 17
From: ra002585@**.unicamp.br (Bira)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 17:23:29 -0300
On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:19:36 -0700 (PDT)
Sihr al Din <aestus_preliator@*****.com> wrote:

> >- Augmented Reality: In Transhuman Space, pretty much every
> >manufactured object has a small chip and a small radio (or equivalent)
> >transmitter embedded into it that allows anyone looking at it with a
> >computer and a reciever (either in a pair of VR glasses or an implant)
> >to learn what it is, how you can use it, and where it is. Shop signs
> >might also have them - in this case, the shop has a "virtual shop
> >sign" that can only be seen with the right equipment...
>
> This could work, but then you'd have to have a constant wireless LAN (Wi-fi anybody?)
across the
> 'plex, which would be vulnerable to hacking and various other problems,
> the least of which would be that it would be expensive as hell to keep
> running properly. Of course, taxes could be raised to help defray the
> cost...forget it, I don't think it would work, at least in the Shadowrun RPG.

I think it would, especially because the introduction in Matrix seems to
imply such a system is already in place. There's also Grid Guide, which
is a city-wide network for traffic analysis.

Also, the original poster's point was that the tech in Shadowrun isn't
advanced enough, and what he's proposing is just such an advancement.
Shadowrun probably isn't as advanced as Transhuman Space, but neither is
it as "primitive" as our time.

--
Bira
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br ou
http://www24.brinkster.com/shadowlandbr/index.html
Message no. 18
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen_Hubert)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 15:10:41 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graht" <davidb@****.imcprint.com>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun


> At 11:17 AM 6/13/2003 -0300, Bira wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:10:44 +0200
> >Phillip Gawlowski <cmd_jackryan@***.net> wrote:
> >
> > > And I think I read (in M&M, I think, not sure), that complete
cloning is
> > > not possible for human bodies, just for organs.
> >
> >Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, since cloning organs is
harder
> >than cloning a whole body :).
>
> Here's an Illuminated thought.
>
> What if cloning is possible but the Megas keep a tight lid on it,
telling
> everyone that it can't be done (claiming that there's an unknown
magic
> component now), because of fear of the ramifications of cloning.
Kinda
> like how the conspiracy theorists keep claiming that "they" know how
to
> make cheap synthetic gasoline but "they" won't, and "take care"
of
anyone
> who figures it out.
>
> There's a lot of runs in that. The runners are hired to protect a
> geneticists who says the Megas are after him because he found out
how easy
> it is to clone someone. Or, the runners are hired to steal the
method of
> cloning someone from a Mega.

Of course, if that's the case, then the question is: "What are those
terrible ramifications of cloning?"

The only one that I could see is some people might object to cloning,
thus leading to consumer protests and reduced sales in other sectors.

But the answer to this is, of course, PR and shell companies. If the
public can't connect a minor biotech company that offers cloning with
the megacon that ultimately owns it, it won't hurt the con in any way.

And really, among all the morally dubious technologies in the Sixth
World, this would be one of the least worrysome. After all, where are
the victims here?


- Jürgen Hubert
Protecting the Fatherland from Dehydration

http://juergen.the-huberts.net/
"Military Diaries Part II, or: Moving Out"
Message no. 19
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen_Hubert)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 15:17:22 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bira" <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun


>

> Also, the original poster's point was that the tech in Shadowrun
isn't
> advanced enough, and what he's proposing is just such an
advancement.
> Shadowrun probably isn't as advanced as Transhuman Space, but
neither is
> it as "primitive" as our time.

Yup. For that matter, I wish space travel were further along in
Shadowrun (because it's cool as hell in TS), but I know I must be
patient - full-fledged Mars colonies don't spring up overnight, even
though the current space race seems to be pushing the cons nicely into
that direction...

(Speaking of Mars, what _was_ the deal with those photos in Dunkie's
will?)


- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html
Message no. 20
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen_Hubert)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 15:22:33 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sihr al Din" <aestus_preliator@*****.com>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun


>
>
> Jürgen_Hubert <jhubert@***.de> wrote:
>

> >- Augmented Reality: In Transhuman Space, pretty much every
> >manufactured object has a small chip and a small radio (or
equivalent)
> >transmitter embedded into it that allows anyone looking at it with
a
> >computer and a reciever (either in a pair of VR glasses or an
implant)
> >to learn what it is, how you can use it, and where it is. Shop
signs
> >might also have them - in this case, the shop has a "virtual shop
> >sign" that can only be seen with the right equipment...
>
> This could work, but then you'd have to have a constant wireless LAN
(Wi-fi anybody?) across the 'plex, which would be vulnerable to
hacking and various other problems, the least of which would be that
it would be expensive as hell to keep running properly. Of course,
taxes could be raised to help defray the cost...forget it, I don't
think it would work, at least in the Shadowrun RPG.

It may be expensive today, but they have 60 years to work on that.

And the Matrix also suffers from hacking and "various other problems"
(up to and including rogue AIs shutting it down for minutes at a
time). Ultimately, it is in the economic interst of various cons (Mega
or otherwise) to keep the Matrix running. Same could be the case for
Augmented Reality...


- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html
Message no. 21
From: iridios@********.net (Iridios)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 14:56:30 -0400
Jürgen Hubert wrote:

>
> Of course, if that's the case, then the question is: "What are those
> terrible ramifications of cloning?"
>
> The only one that I could see is some people might object to cloning,
> thus leading to consumer protests and reduced sales in other sectors.
>
> But the answer to this is, of course, PR and shell companies. If the
> public can't connect a minor biotech company that offers cloning with
> the megacon that ultimately owns it, it won't hurt the con in any way.
>
> And really, among all the morally dubious technologies in the Sixth
> World, this would be one of the least worrysome. After all, where are
> the victims here?

Think of it this way. Clones aren't people. To a Mega, clones are
manufactured items. Property. They can be patented, copyrighted,
and trademarked. As objects they have no civil rights to violate,
can be used as slave labor in all sorts of hazardous situations.

Mega-factory complexes can be built to house and 'employ' clones at
little cost (compared to hiring union labor and covering basic
medical costs). If a clone is wounded too severly to work, it can
be destroyed and replaced.

Natural born people would lose jobs to clones in this situation.
The ones who manage to hold onto jobs will have to settle for lower
wages and little or no health care coverage.

When the clones start recieving civil rights protection, there will
be harsh sentiment toward them from naturals. They will be treated
worse than meta's have been.

I had more to say, but lost my train of thought. But it's a start.


Now where did that train go....


--
Iridios / http://iridios.bravepages.com

Top ten reasons to visit my new site:
2. Because I've run out of reasons.
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RR rm= rr+ l- m=>- w--->= s=>*:= GM+:+(=):=[PF] hp!>+ LA= mf+ W+ C--(+) CG-
OG+ F= c->= K=(?)
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6/14/03
Message no. 22
From: iridios@********.net (Iridios)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 15:10:43 -0400
Sihr al Din wrote:

>
> This could work, but then you'd have to have a constant wireless LAN
> (Wi-fi anybody?) across the 'plex, which would be vulnerable to hacking

If I read the description right, most of the AR enabled devices
would be one way transmitters. Nothing to hack. They send out
basic info on a public channel including instructions on which
channels to switch to for more details. Locating such items would
only be a matter of signal strength and triangulation.

The more complex devices, ones that allow manipulation through
augmented reality, might be vulnerable to hacks. But that would
have been considered and security built in. Not to say they won't
be hacked, but it takes a skilled person to do so.



> and various other problems, the least of which would be that it would be
> expensive as hell to keep running properly.

Expense can be absorbed in a variety of ways. On one level, it's
like advertising in the phone book. It's an expense, but it tends
to draw in customers. Or the cost's are defrayed by subtle (or not
so subtle) advertisements embedded in the signal, like banner ads on
the internet. A 10% tax on the sale of recievers could help cover
the costs. Etc, etc, etc.


--
Iridios / http://iridios.bravepages.com

Top ten reasons to visit my new site:
2. Because I've run out of reasons.
------------------------------------------------------
GCC0.3: y69>?.us[PA] G89 SCP/F/PA:@@[SR] B+>++ f@*
RR rm= rr+ l- m=>- w--->= s=>*:= GM+:+(=):=[PF] hp!>+ LA= mf+ W+ C--(+) CG-
OG+ F= c->= K=(?)
------------------------------------------------------
This email has been verified by no one.
6/14/03
Message no. 23
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen Hubert)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:37:11 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Iridios" <iridios@********.net>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun


> Jürgen Hubert wrote:
>
> >
> > Of course, if that's the case, then the question is: "What are
those
> > terrible ramifications of cloning?"
> >
> > The only one that I could see is some people might object to
cloning,
> > thus leading to consumer protests and reduced sales in other
sectors.
> >
> > But the answer to this is, of course, PR and shell companies. If
the
> > public can't connect a minor biotech company that offers cloning
with
> > the megacon that ultimately owns it, it won't hurt the con in any
way.
> >
> > And really, among all the morally dubious technologies in the
Sixth
> > World, this would be one of the least worrysome. After all, where
are
> > the victims here?
>
> Think of it this way. Clones aren't people. To a Mega, clones are
> manufactured items. Property. They can be patented, copyrighted,
> and trademarked.

Well, if they can talk and think like the rest of metahumanity (and
there's no reason they shouldn't), this is a position that is hard to
maintain against someone who cares about human rights issues at all -
even if it is only from a PR point of view.

> As objects they have no civil rights to violate,
> can be used as slave labor in all sorts of hazardous situations.

And this differs from illegal immigrants how?

> Mega-factory complexes can be built to house and 'employ' clones at
> little cost (compared to hiring union labor and covering basic
> medical costs).

Again, there's the black economy for people, and poor living
conditions for industrial workers have existed since at _least_ the
19th century...

> If a clone is wounded too severly to work, it can
> be destroyed and replaced.

That in itself costs money. Illegal immigrants you can just fire and
kick out on the streets...

> Natural born people would lose jobs to clones in this situation.
> The ones who manage to hold onto jobs will have to settle for lower
> wages and little or no health care coverage.

Again, this differs in no way from immigration from poorer nations...

And another thing: It's _really_ expensive to raise and educate a
clone until he reaches adulthood - as expensive as it is to raise
normal metahumans, in fact. After all, clones don't grow up or learn
faster than "normal people".

For a megacon, it is far cheaper to get some unskilled labor from
Third World nations - there's always more where they came from, and
they are pretty much all desperate to do anything for a small amount
of money...

> When the clones start recieving civil rights protection, there will
> be harsh sentiment toward them from naturals. They will be treated
> worse than meta's have been.

I really don't see why clones shouldn't recieve the same civil rights
(or absence thereof) as "normal" metahumans. After all, they _are_
normal metahumans, with the only difference being that their DNA is
identical to that of an older, existing metahuman.

Now if you _want_ a slave population of artificial human beings, I
suggest reading up on the bioroids of Transhuman Space. It takes less
than a year to construct them, and after three years of intensive VR
education, they are as competent in their profession as any adult
human professional. Their bodies can easily maximized for their job,
and they are usually conditioned to _like_ their job, thus making them
unlikely to revolt - or ask for raises.

The perfect wage slaves...


- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html
Message no. 24
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:15:16 +0200
Am Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:37:11 +0200 hat Jürgen Hubert <jhubert@***.de>
geschrieben:

>
> Well, if they can talk and think like the rest of metahumanity (and
> there's no reason they shouldn't), this is a position that is hard to
> maintain against someone who cares about human rights issues at all -
> even if it is only from a PR point of view.

Well, AI's don't get any rights. And you cannot diffeer them from real
deckers...
And a view doesn't need to be "correct" or "sane" to be held
(Anti-Semites
are a good example), it only has to be there. And really, something that
hasn't a mother but is grown is not a person, is it?


> And this differs from illegal immigrants how?

Clones don't go see the doctor. They see the crematory. You can't do that
with illegal immigrants (Not in a large scale, anyways).

It is very easy to conjure "Third Reich" ghosts in connection with ghosts.

> Again, there's the black economy for people, and poor living
> conditions for industrial workers have existed since at _least_ the
> 19th century...

True. But you don't have a SIN, you do work running the shadows. Not many
survive that.
There is not much space for black labour in the SR3 universe. Either you
are in, or you are dead.

> That in itself costs money. Illegal immigrants you can just fire and
> kick out on the streets...

But they tell tales. And it is cheaper to kill a next-to-dead clone, than
to treat it. And you have an army of them things to do your bidding.

> Again, this differs in no way from immigration from poorer nations...
>
> And another thing: It's _really_ expensive to raise and educate a
> clone until he reaches adulthood - as expensive as it is to raise
> normal metahumans, in fact. After all, clones don't grow up or learn
> faster than "normal people".

Well, not quite. A clone doesn't have to learn social interaction. Only
obedience (Dogs can do that).
And if you train them to do small task, that need no education, they can
work at ages 8+. That was the case during the middle ages, up unitl the
Industril Revolution. Child hood is a fairly recent idea.

> For a megacon, it is far cheaper to get some unskilled labor from
> Third World nations - there's always more where they came from, and
> they are pretty much all desperate to do anything for a small amount
> of money...

Nope. those guys need transport costs, living quarters and stuff. A clone
doesn't. It is produced on-site, trained on-site and disposed on-site.

> I really don't see why clones shouldn't recieve the same civil rights
> (or absence thereof) as "normal" metahumans. After all, they _are_
> normal metahumans, with the only difference being that their DNA is
> identical to that of an older, existing metahuman.

And they aren't born by a meta. That makes a real difference to the masses.
And to me, BTW.

> Now if you _want_ a slave population of artificial human beings, I
> suggest reading up on the bioroids of Transhuman Space. It takes less
> than a year to construct them, and after three years of intensive VR
> education, they are as competent in their profession as any adult
> human professional. Their bodies can easily maximized for their job,
> and they are usually conditioned to _like_ their job, thus making them
> unlikely to revolt - or ask for raises.
>
> The perfect wage slaves...

Well, no reason why clones in the SR3 universe shouldn't resceive the same
treatment.
It is possible to enhance the body via BioTech, and you can train folks
with BTL's.

Problem solved.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster from Hell and GeneralIdiot

http://www.jack-ryan.de/shadowrun
The Linux ShadowRun Character Generator Developer's Mailinglist : LSRCG-
developers@***********.net
Message no. 25
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:20:37 +0200
Am Sat, 14 Jun 2003 15:22:33 +0200 hat Jürgen Hubert <jhubert@***.de>
geschrieben:

> It may be expensive today, but they have 60 years to work on that.

30 years. The Crash '29 killed most of the stuff stored in on-line memory,
requiring to re-engineer from what was there.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster from Hell and GeneralIdiot

http://www.jack-ryan.de/shadowrun
The Linux ShadowRun Character Generator Developer's Mailinglist : LSRCG-
developers@***********.net
Message no. 26
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 17:22:58 +1000 (EST)
--- Jürgen_Hubert <jhubert@***.de> wrote: >
<snip>> As for the fast-growth clones... I think these
would
> make great hosts
> for certain kinds of spirits - shedim and bug
> spirits, to be precise,
> especially the former.
>
> After all, they are living bodies that just don't
> happen to have
> souls. A master shedim might just use clones to
> clone and replace
> people with "normal" shedim doppelgänger.

I don't know about that, the whole reason for spirits
using a host is to consume their spirit isn't It. No
essence no living human spirit to consume or
infest/use.

GZ

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Message no. 27
From: datwinkdaddy@*******.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:37:56 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip Gawlowski" <cmd_jackryan@***.net>

> And they aren't born by a meta. That makes a real difference to the
masses.
> And to me, BTW.

What do *you* mean by clone? I mean, dolly was born to a sheep. If
we do clone (as the media will say) a human in the near future, it
will be born to some woman.

Here's what I'd prefer we use for terminology:
Clone = Genetic Copy
Vat-Born = (Meta)Human incubated outside a metahuman mother. [Need
not be a clone.]
Grown = (Meta)Human produced with forced-growth technology. [Need not
be a clone, maybe not even vat-born(!).]

Also, while I don't agree with your view, I can see a good many people
taking it. Something along the lines of if they aren't born to a
human, they don't have a soul or somesuch. I think if their genetic
material is human, then they are human.

--
Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@****.edu
ICQ: Da Twink Daddy (514984)
YM: DaTwinkDaddy
AIM: DaTwinkDaddy
Message no. 28
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 16:55:19 +0200
Am Mon, 16 Jun 2003 09:37:56 -0500 hat Da Twink Daddy
<datwinkdaddy@*******.com> geschrieben:

>> And they aren't born by a meta. That makes a real difference to the
> masses.
>> And to me, BTW.
>
> What do *you* mean by clone? I mean, dolly was born to a sheep. If
> we do clone (as the media will say) a human in the near future, it
> will be born to some woman.

Copies that are grown outside a body. Only tech, no nature.

> Also, while I don't agree with your view,

Perfectly fine. My point of view may change over time. But at the moment, I
don't feel it is right to clone sombody. I guess that has to do with the
fact, that the tech is not understood yet, and that the risks for the clone
are too high, and will result in a miserably life for the clone and/or the
"parent" and/or the lab responsible.

This is most likely irrational, and I see this as a kind of racism, but I
cannot help right now. I assumed, that Dolly would have problems like a
sheep of that genetic age, but it still dtruck me.

The time's not right. Yet.

> I can see a good many people
> taking it. Something along the lines of if they aren't born to a
> human, they don't have a soul or somesuch. I think if their genetic
> material is human, then they are human.

Yeah, true. (I SAID my vie is irrational!)
But I cannot take that somebody of my race is trying to do something like
this without fully knowing what is possible to happen.

It is likely, that the "victims" of cloning get horrible deseases, and that
would make me feel even more sick than thinking about cloning. Completely
irrational, but I cannot help it.

Again, it might change over time, as technology progresse.
By no means my views are hammered into granite.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster from Hell and GeneralIdiot

http://www.jack-ryan.de/shadowrun
The Linux ShadowRun Character Generator Developer's Mailinglist : LSRCG-
developers@***********.net
Message no. 29
From: iridios@********.net (Iridios)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:49:08 -0400
Da Twink Daddy wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phillip Gawlowski" <cmd_jackryan@***.net>
>
>>And they aren't born by a meta. That makes a real difference to the
>
> masses.
>
>>And to me, BTW.
>
>
> What do *you* mean by clone? I mean, dolly was born to a sheep. If
> we do clone (as the media will say) a human in the near future, it
> will be born to some woman.

Early human clones will be born of a woman. But after cloning
becomes relatively stable, I can see biotech corps researching
artifical wombs. Ostensibly for the benefit of women whose own
wombs are insufficient, the technology could easily be set to mass
produce clones.


>
> Also, while I don't agree with your view, I can see a good many people
> taking it. Something along the lines of if they aren't born to a
> human, they don't have a soul or somesuch. I think if their genetic
> material is human, then they are human.

I'd be more afraid that the biotech corps that perfect cloning may
declare clones to be "technology". Merely a product to be bought,
sold, used, and destroyed at will. In effect, enslaving people by
declaring them to not be people.

And if human clones actually show intelligence and awareness of
self, that might work against those who believe that humans have
souls. It might also go a long way toward supporting various
eugenic programs, including euthenasia (sp?). I oppose the cloning
of humans, not because the clones aren't human, but because the
production of clones weaken the value of human life.

If clones are accepted as merely objects, what's to stop the
classification of elderly as disposable? Or the mentally
handicapped as disposable? Or the red haired as disposable?

It's a dangerous slope.

>



--
Iridios / http://iridios.bravepages.com

Top ten reasons to visit my new site:
8. It's the cool thing to do?
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6/16/03
Message no. 30
From: ra002585@**.unicamp.br (Bira)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:10:22 -0300
On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:49:08 -0400
Iridios <iridios@********.net> wrote:

> >
> > Also, while I don't agree with your view, I can see a good many people
> > taking it. Something along the lines of if they aren't born to a
> > human, they don't have a soul or somesuch. I think if their genetic
> > material is human, then they are human.
>
> I'd be more afraid that the biotech corps that perfect cloning may
> declare clones to be "technology". Merely a product to be bought,
> sold, used, and destroyed at will. In effect, enslaving people by
> declaring them to not be people.

Except it won't do them much good (the corps, that is). The killer tech
here isn't cloning, it's braintaping. Even if you can have a fully adult
clone within a year, they're still as "blank" as unborn babies. Unless
there's a way to imprint their brains with a copy of someone else's mind,
that stable of clones won't be of any use except as an organ farm.

The issues surrounding this type of clone would be more or less the same
as those surrounding abortion. Clone babies who are then implanted into
otherwise infertile mothers would be far more popular, and generally
viewed as a good thing. Even tough they're technically copies, they'll
turn out to be as different from their originator as a normal child is
different from his/her parents once he/she grows up.

Will corps view them as a product? Definitely, but not in the way you're
implying. They'll charge to generate and implant a clone baby just as
hospitals charge for any fertility treatment today.

"Clone slavery" won't become a moral issue unless the clones can be
given a mind instantly, right out of the vat, and even so only if
cloning employees becomes both cheaper _and_ more effective than hiring
normal people or automating the whole thing.

Even if all these conditions turn out to be true, enough people will
probably object to it to make it counter-productive. Clone slavery would
be a tool of unscrupulous villains and black-ops departments.

--
Bira
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br ou
http://www24.brinkster.com/shadowlandbr/index.html
Message no. 31
From: iridios@********.net (Iridios)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 20:35:20 -0400
Bira wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:49:08 -0400
> Iridios <iridios@********.net> wrote:
>
>

>>
>>I'd be more afraid that the biotech corps that perfect cloning may
>>declare clones to be "technology". Merely a product to be bought,
>>sold, used, and destroyed at will. In effect, enslaving people by
>>declaring them to not be people.
>
>
> Except it won't do them much good (the corps, that is). The killer tech
> here isn't cloning, it's braintaping. Even if you can have a fully adult
> clone within a year, they're still as "blank" as unborn babies. Unless
> there's a way to imprint their brains with a copy of someone else's mind,
> that stable of clones won't be of any use except as an organ farm.

I'm not talking about force-grown clones. I'm talking about normal
growth rate clones. Start their indoctrination as babies, during
the impressionable years. Destroy the ones that show signs of
independant thought. Train them to do a few things well, say using
weapons and hand to hand. Now you've got a whole army of soldiers
who know nothing other than to kill or be killed. Literally.

Or they could be trained to work in hazardous waste facilities. Or
as heavy labor. Or any other task their "owner" deems to expensive
to train a born human.

>
> The issues surrounding this type of clone would be more or less the same
> as those surrounding abortion. Clone babies who are then implanted into
> otherwise infertile mothers would be far more popular, and generally
> viewed as a good thing.

This attitude will be used by the corporations to develop good will
among the general populace. No one wants to deny an infertile woman
the 'right' to a child. Once that door is opened, the companies
will find every avenue they can use to profit from cloning.
Practice patients for med schools, research patients to test
pharmacuticals or disease research, hazardous duty drones, and etc.

>
> Will corps view them as a product? Definitely, but not in the way you're
> implying. They'll charge to generate and implant a clone baby just as
> hospitals charge for any fertility treatment today.

But will the corps stop there? Once the genie's out of the bottle
you can't put it back in. Eventually the corp will realize their
are other avenues of profit, and they will take advantage of some or
all of them.

>
> "Clone slavery" won't become a moral issue unless the clones can be
> given a mind instantly,

Even a baby has a mind, even if it cannot effectively express it's
thoughts. At what developmental age is the mind sufficiently
advanced to allow slavery? Isn't child labor wrong?

>
> Even if all these conditions turn out to be true, enough people will
> probably object to it to make it counter-productive. Clone slavery would
> be a tool of unscrupulous villains and black-ops departments.

If the corps are successful in their characterization of clones as
products, there won't be any objections. Or not enough to make a
difference. It's happened before. Think WWII.

>



--
Iridios / http://iridios.bravepages.com

Top ten reasons to visit my new site:
4. Who needs a reason?
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6/17/03
Message no. 32
From: ra002585@**.unicamp.br (Bira)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 13:42:45 -0300
On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 20:35:20 -0400
Iridios <iridios@********.net> wrote:

> I'm not talking about force-grown clones. I'm talking about normal
> growth rate clones. Start their indoctrination as babies, during
> the impressionable years. Destroy the ones that show signs of
> independant thought. Train them to do a few things well, say using
> weapons and hand to hand. Now you've got a whole army of soldiers
> who know nothing other than to kill or be killed. Literally.
>
> Or they could be trained to work in hazardous waste facilities. Or
> as heavy labor. Or any other task their "owner" deems to expensive
> to train a born human.

Training and indoctrinating a clone from birth takes much more time and
money than using normal people to do the job. It's also much more
expensive than using drones and robots to do it. "Clone slavery" doesn't
make sense even when you consider the megacorps to be faceless monoliths
driven only by greed, since it's so far from being cost-effective it's
ridiculous. Why spend 15-20 years clothing, feeding and teaching a clone
just to have it do the same job a technician operating a drone could do?
All you have to do is pay the tech guy a small salary and he can take
care of himself perfectly well. Plus, you didn't have to raise him for
20 years.

I'll repeat what I said before - clone slavery of the kind you're
speaking of doesn't make any sense unless you can force-grow clones and
imprint personalities and skills on them cheaply and quickly. And, even
them, public relations issues would _still_ make it counter-productive.

> >
> > The issues surrounding this type of clone would be more or less the same
> > as those surrounding abortion. Clone babies who are then implanted into
> > otherwise infertile mothers would be far more popular, and generally
> > viewed as a good thing.
>
> This attitude will be used by the corporations to develop good will
> among the general populace. No one wants to deny an infertile woman
> the 'right' to a child. Once that door is opened, the companies
> will find every avenue they can use to profit from cloning.
> Practice patients for med schools, research patients to test
> pharmacuticals or disease research, hazardous duty drones, and etc.

Except that would backfire on them. You see, clone babies are just like
normal children who happen to bear a remarkable resemblance to someone
else. Making the people see this is an integral part of making them
accept cloning as a viable reproductive treatment (like in-vitro
fertilization). Using clones as cannon fodder after that doesn't make
any sense at all.

I mean, do corps today use people created by in-vitro fertilization as
slave labor and research patients? The two situations aren't that
different if all you can produce from cloning are babies who then have
to be raised the normal way. Clone babies are _no_different_at_all_ from
any other human being. They're not copies, they're new individuals. If
all it took to view a human being as something else was an
unconventional conception, all this dire stuff would already be
happening today, since the first children born of in-vitro fertilization
are adults by now.

> >
> > Will corps view them as a product? Definitely, but not in the way you're
> > implying. They'll charge to generate and implant a clone baby just as
> > hospitals charge for any fertility treatment today.
>
> But will the corps stop there? Once the genie's out of the bottle
> you can't put it back in. Eventually the corp will realize their
> are other avenues of profit, and they will take advantage of some or
> all of them.

Yup, they will, because clones are people too, and no one is going to
think otherwise, especially after all that positive campaigning to this
regard.

> > "Clone slavery" won't become a moral issue unless the clones can be
> > given a mind instantly,
>
> Even a baby has a mind, even if it cannot effectively express it's
> thoughts. At what developmental age is the mind sufficiently
> advanced to allow slavery? Isn't child labor wrong?

Rectify that : Clone slavery won't become a real moral issue unless the
clones can be created as adults and given a mind instantly. It's just
not going to happen otherwise.

> >
> > Even if all these conditions turn out to be true, enough people will
> > probably object to it to make it counter-productive. Clone slavery would
> > be a tool of unscrupulous villains and black-ops departments.
>
> If the corps are successful in their characterization of clones as
> products, there won't be any objections. Or not enough to make a
> difference. It's happened before. Think WWII.

The thing is, you can't characterize the clones themselves as products,
since they're human. The actual product here is the process of cloning,
and there is enough nuyen to be had from that without having to resort
to WWII flashbacks :). Using clones as slaves is so obviously wrong and
just plain innefficient it will only become a reality if someone wants
to wait over a decade to be viewed as a really evil bastard by the world
at large.


--
Bira
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br ou
http://www24.brinkster.com/shadowlandbr/index.html
Message no. 33
From: danturek@*******.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:40:59 -0400
Bira's take:

>I'll repeat what I said before - clone slavery of the kind you're
>speaking of doesn't make any sense unless you can force-grow clones and
>imprint personalities and skills on them cheaply and quickly. And, even
>them, public relations issues would _still_ make it counter-productive.

Sometimes all you need is a body.

Someone else mentioned the astral stuff - insect spirits and the like. I'm
sure I'll use that at some point.

Another simple one is replacement. Whack someone, replace with clone. So
they are mentally undeveloped now, under certain "accidents that were almost
fatal" that is quite understandable.

Slavery is not for most people's personality or talents. If a certain
prostitute or movie star has a huge fan base, a near-mindless version can
still serve in the physical sense. If the role has minimal speaking, a
production could save millions or even film the same person in multiple
locations simultaneously. Voice overs can always be done later by the
non-clone.

There are places where machinery just doesn't work as well as people,
provided people are still cheaper. Whether handing out leaflets on corners
or safety-testing the latest toys or cosmetics, a clone would be ideal, and
they can honestly advertise no animal testing.

None of these are great for the PR people, but some people have even darker
for SR than I do.
I'm sure a ghoul nation would love to have cloning, as they would only be
eating people bred for that purpose.

_________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 34
From: ra002585@**.unicamp.br (Bira)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 03:17:31 -0300
On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:40:59 -0400
"Dan Turek" <danturek@*******.com> wrote:

> Bira's take:
>
> >I'll repeat what I said before - clone slavery of the kind you're
> >speaking of doesn't make any sense unless you can force-grow clones and
> >imprint personalities and skills on them cheaply and quickly. And, even
> >them, public relations issues would _still_ make it counter-productive.
>
> Sometimes all you need is a body.

With the kind of cloning we're talking about here (no forced growth), it
would take you nearly twenty years to get even that. If you do have
forced growth and instant mind-imprinting, there's a lot more to worry
about.

> Someone else mentioned the astral stuff - insect spirits and the like. I'm
> sure I'll use that at some point.

Again, unless there's forced-growth, using normal people is the way to
go for those insect shamans that don't want to wait decades for Ultimate
Power.

> Another simple one is replacement. Whack someone, replace with clone. So
> they are mentally undeveloped now, under certain "accidents that were almost
> fatal" that is quite understandable.

Again, not possible without forced growth unless people somehow turn
into babies due to SURGE. Even _with_ forced growth, the a bank clone is
so underdeveloped it might as well be dead.

> Slavery is not for most people's personality or talents. If a certain
> prostitute or movie star has a huge fan base, a near-mindless version can
> still serve in the physical sense. If the role has minimal speaking, a
> production could save millions or even film the same person in multiple
> locations simultaneously. Voice overs can always be done later by the
> non-clone.

Well, I concede some twisted people might be especially aroused by
clones, and some unscrupulous crime syndicates would be willing to
supply that. But, for handling leaflets and playing extras, hiring
random joes from the street is much cheaper and makes much more sense
than making clones specifically for it.

> There are places where machinery just doesn't work as well as people,
> provided people are still cheaper. Whether handing out leaflets on corners
> or safety-testing the latest toys or cosmetics, a clone would be ideal, and
> they can honestly advertise no animal testing.

People will almost certainly be cheaper in some areas, not so in others.
But cloning people specifically for performing menial labor is always
more expensive than any sane person would want to contend with. Why make
clones for drug testing if you can hire some desperate beggar to be your
guinea pig for pocket change and bread crumbs? That's even darker than
cloning.

Besides, if you use human clones for testing, it's still animal testing.
Humans belong to the animal kingdom just as daisies belong to the plant
kingdom :).

> None of these are great for the PR people, but some people have even darker
> for SR than I do.

Dark is alright with me, as long as it makes sense. No one does "evil
things" just to be "evil".
--
Bira
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br ou
http://www24.brinkster.com/shadowlandbr/index.html
Message no. 35
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen_Hubert)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:29:35 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Ennew" <robertennew@*****.com.au>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun


> --- Jürgen_Hubert <jhubert@***.de> wrote: >
> <snip>> As for the fast-growth clones... I think these
> would
> > make great hosts
> > for certain kinds of spirits - shedim and bug
> > spirits, to be precise,
> > especially the former.
> >
> > After all, they are living bodies that just don't
> > happen to have
> > souls. A master shedim might just use clones to
> > clone and replace
> > people with "normal" shedim doppelgänger.
>
> I don't know about that, the whole reason for spirits
> using a host is to consume their spirit isn't It. No
> essence no living human spirit to consume or
> infest/use.

True enough for bug spirits, I guess... but shedim are another kettle
entirely. All we've read about them so far suggests they can only
inhabit a body if the spirit that used to reside in it is absent -
either because it has died or passed on, or because it astrally
projects elsewhere.


- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html
Message no. 36
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen Hubert)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:25:57 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip Gawlowski" <cmd_jackryan@***.net>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun


> Am Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:37:11 +0200 hat Jürgen Hubert
<jhubert@***.de>
> geschrieben:
>
> >
> > Well, if they can talk and think like the rest of metahumanity
(and
> > there's no reason they shouldn't), this is a position that is hard
to
> > maintain against someone who cares about human rights issues at
all -
> > even if it is only from a PR point of view.
>
> Well, AI's don't get any rights. And you cannot diffeer them from
real
> deckers...
> And a view doesn't need to be "correct" or "sane" to be held
(Anti-Semites
> are a good example), it only has to be there. And really, something
that
> hasn't a mother but is grown is not a person, is it?

While many people will share this point of view, many others won't,
and a sensible corp woouldn't want to loose the latter as paying
customers.

Plus, it is easier to discriminate against metahumans. After all, they
_look_ differently! ;-)

> > And this differs from illegal immigrants how?
>
> Clones don't go see the doctor. They see the crematory. You can't do
that
> with illegal immigrants (Not in a large scale, anyways).

I simply don't buy this. Clones, whether the normal, realistic type
(the ones that take 18 years to reach adulthood like the rest of us),
or the silly cinematic kind that gets instant education, are a
significant investment for the corp - far more so than any cheap
unskilled human labor. You _don't_ throw that kind of investment away
when there's a relatively cheap way to fix it instead. In fact, I'd
say that this kind of clone will get _better_ medical treatment than
your typical immigrant worker - simply because it makes good economic
sense.

> It is very easy to conjure "Third Reich" ghosts in connection with
ghosts.

Not really. After all, the Nazis wanted to _kill_ the Jews in the end,
and thus made some decisions that would have never come to any cost
conscious megacon manager...

> > That in itself costs money. Illegal immigrants you can just fire
and
> > kick out on the streets...
>
> But they tell tales. And it is cheaper to kill a next-to-dead clone,
than
> to treat it.

That's even more the case for immigrants.

> And you have an army of them things to do your bidding.

Well, how are you going to keep them docile? That requires even _more_
tech, which makes clones even more expensive - and even less something
you just throw away the first time you have a problem with it...

> > Again, this differs in no way from immigration from poorer
nations...
> >
> > And another thing: It's _really_ expensive to raise and educate a
> > clone until he reaches adulthood - as expensive as it is to raise
> > normal metahumans, in fact. After all, clones don't grow up or
learn
> > faster than "normal people".
>
> Well, not quite. A clone doesn't have to learn social interaction.
Only
> obedience (Dogs can do that).
> And if you train them to do small task, that need no education, they
can
> work at ages 8+. That was the case during the middle ages, up unitl
the
> Industril Revolution. Child hood is a fairly recent idea.

There's already a type of laborer that don't need any kind of social
interaction skills. They are called "robots". And IMO it is probably
cheaper in the end to use either them or some Third World sweatshop
instead of bothering with clones...

> > For a megacon, it is far cheaper to get some unskilled labor from
> > Third World nations - there's always more where they came from,
and
> > they are pretty much all desperate to do anything for a small
amount
> > of money...
>
> Nope. those guys need transport costs, living quarters and stuff.

Usually, they pay for these _themselves_. Or you could just set up
your factory in the Third World nation in the first place...

> A clone
> doesn't. It is produced on-site, trained on-site and disposed
on-site.

Training costs money - and in the case of clones, probably a _lot_ of
money. After all, normal humans learn basic motoric skills on their
own over the course of many years. You don't have this kind of time
with clones if you want to stay cost-effective...

And clones still have to eat or sleep, or else you will end up with a
dead clone and no return on your investment _really_ fast.

> > I really don't see why clones shouldn't recieve the same civil
rights
> > (or absence thereof) as "normal" metahumans. After all, they _are_
> > normal metahumans, with the only difference being that their DNA
is
> > identical to that of an older, existing metahuman.
>
> And they aren't born by a meta. That makes a real difference to the
masses.
> And to me, BTW.

So if someone in the next few decades manages to create artificial
wombs, you wouldn't consider anyone born from them to be a "real
human"?

> > Now if you _want_ a slave population of artificial human beings, I
> > suggest reading up on the bioroids of Transhuman Space. It takes
less
> > than a year to construct them, and after three years of intensive
VR
> > education, they are as competent in their profession as any adult
> > human professional. Their bodies can easily maximized for their
job,
> > and they are usually conditioned to _like_ their job, thus making
them
> > unlikely to revolt - or ask for raises.
> >
> > The perfect wage slaves...
>
> Well, no reason why clones in the SR3 universe shouldn't resceive
the same
> treatment.
> It is possible to enhance the body via BioTech, and you can train
folks
> with BTL's.

But all this costs lots of money - and makes their owners less
inclined to just "dispose of them".

Even Transhuman Space's bioroids get access to medical treatment to
lengthen their operational duration. And if they can't be used in a
certain job anymore, they are just sold to a new owner at a reduced
price who _can_ find a new use for them - for snuff videos, if nothing
else.

You don't throw anything away you could still use. Recycling is the
way of the future, after all... ;-)


- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html
Message no. 37
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen Hubert)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:53:58 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Iridios" <iridios@********.net>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 2:49 AM
Subject: Re: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun


> Da Twink Daddy wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Phillip Gawlowski" <cmd_jackryan@***.net>
> >
> >>And they aren't born by a meta. That makes a real difference to
the
> >
> > masses.
> >
> >>And to me, BTW.
> >
> >
> > What do *you* mean by clone? I mean, dolly was born to a sheep.
If
> > we do clone (as the media will say) a human in the near future, it
> > will be born to some woman.
>
> Early human clones will be born of a woman. But after cloning
> becomes relatively stable, I can see biotech corps researching
> artifical wombs. Ostensibly for the benefit of women whose own
> wombs are insufficient, the technology could easily be set to mass
> produce clones.

Of course, this kind of technology wouldn't be limited to growing
clones - they could also be used for fertilized egg cells created
through in-vitro fertilization, or even ones produced the "natural"
way and taken out of the womb.

I've been given to understand that pregnancy can have some rather
inconvenient side effects, and that giving birth can be quite painful.
How many women would prefer using artificial wombs instead, if given
the chance? I wonder...

That's another technology that would be cool to introduce to the
Shadowrun universe. And of course, in combination with some
gene-splicing they could also enable two male partners to have a child
together (with a donated egg cell, of course). Remember, same-sex
marriages _are_ legal in the UCAS, so it should be legal for them to
get children this way - if the technology allows it.


- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html
Message no. 38
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 11:55:31 +0200
Dan Turek wrote:
> Bira's take:
>
> >I'll repeat what I said before - clone slavery of the kind you're
> >speaking of doesn't make any sense unless you can force-grow
> clones and
> >imprint personalities and skills on them cheaply and
> quickly. And, even
> >them, public relations issues would _still_ make it
> counter-productive.
>
> Sometimes all you need is a body.
>
> Someone else mentioned the astral stuff - insect spirits and
> the like. I'm
> sure I'll use that at some point.
>
> Another simple one is replacement. Whack someone, replace
> with clone. So
> they are mentally undeveloped now, under certain "accidents
> that were almost
> fatal" that is quite understandable.
>
> Slavery is not for most people's personality or talents. If a certain
> prostitute or movie star has a huge fan base, a near-mindless
> version can
> still serve in the physical sense. If the role has minimal
> speaking, a
> production could save millions or even film the same person
> in multiple
> locations simultaneously. Voice overs can always be done later by the
> non-clone.
>
> There are places where machinery just doesn't work as well as people,
> provided people are still cheaper. Whether handing out
> leaflets on corners
> or safety-testing the latest toys or cosmetics, a clone would
> be ideal, and
> they can honestly advertise no animal testing.
>
> None of these are great for the PR people, but some people
> have even darker
> for SR than I do.
> I'm sure a ghoul nation would love to have cloning, as they
> would only be
> eating people bred for that purpose.

The biggest problem here that seems to be getting missed my some people is
that, regardless of individual beliefs on the topic, clones are still
self-aware sentient human beings just like you. Even if you could force-grow
a clone (or figure out a way to spawn a fully grown one) and train it a la
The Matrix ("I know Kung-Fu"), the clone is NOT going to be a mindless copy
of the original. Everyone needs to stop thinking of clones as circa-1950s
Buck Rogers episodes. We can't even begin to comprehend the psychological
side-effects of a forced-growth existence.


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon


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Message no. 39
From: ra002585@**.unicamp.br (Bira)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 12:46:29 -0300
On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:53:58 +0200
"Jürgen Hubert" <jhubert@***.de> wrote:

>
> I've been given to understand that pregnancy can have some rather
> inconvenient side effects, and that giving birth can be quite painful.
> How many women would prefer using artificial wombs instead, if given
> the chance? I wonder...

Less than you think, I bet :). I know some who would go for that, but I
also know a lot who wouldn't - they _want_ to be pregnant.


--
Bira
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br ou
http://www24.brinkster.com/shadowlandbr/index.html
Message no. 40
From: iridios@********.net (Iridios)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:08:47 -0400
Jürgen Hubert wrote:

>>And a view doesn't need to be "correct" or "sane" to be held
>> (Anti-Semites are a good example), it only has to be there.
>>And really, something that hasn't a mother but is grown is not
>>a person, is it?
>
>
> While many people will share this point of view, many others won't,
> and a sensible corp woouldn't want to loose the latter as paying
> customers.

That's the reason for shell companies, fronts, and loosely
affiliated "partnerships". All to distance a corp from possible bad
business.

>
> Plus, it is easier to discriminate against metahumans. After all, they
> _look_ differently! ;-)

And simple genetic tweaking couldn't make clones blue? There isn't
a race of humanity that gives birth to blue offspring. The blue
people must not be natural. ;)

>
>
>>>And this differs from illegal immigrants how?
>>
>>Clones don't go see the doctor. They see the crematory. You can't do
>> that with illegal immigrants (Not in a large scale, anyways).
>
>
> I simply don't buy this. Clones, whether the normal, realistic type
> (the ones that take 18 years to reach adulthood like the rest of us),
> or the silly cinematic kind that gets instant education, are a
> significant investment for the corp - far more so than any cheap
> unskilled human labor.

You wouldn't use unskilled human labor in a uranium processing
factory. The legal and publicly acknowledged ones will likely be
robotic in nature, but the illegal kind might depend on a more
mobile force.

Unskilled labor is good for basic, low danger grunt work. But what
unskilled worker is going to volunteer for hazardous work without a
lot of pay? Clones will have been 'trained' to accept dangerous
work as acceptable. Whether they're indoctrinated for 18 years or
programmed with psychotropic braintapes. Sure there is some heavy
upfront investment, but the costs decrease over time. And the corp
that uses normal humans for hazardous work faces the cost of health
care and life insurance for the worker. Not to mention lost
business due to strikes, sickness, family leave, and etc.

> You _don't_ throw that kind of investment away
> when there's a relatively cheap way to fix it instead. In fact, I'd
> say that this kind of clone will get _better_ medical treatment than
> your typical immigrant worker - simply because it makes good economic
> sense.

Corps will see the savings in not having to pay a decent wage for
20+ years per worker. Also not having to pay health insurance for
20+, not losing business due to lost manhours. The cost to produce
a clone seems great, but you need to factor in all the secondary
costs involved with employing someone over 20+ years.

If the cost to repair a clone is more than the cost to bring a new
one online (and they would have young clones ready to put to use),
they can just destroy it and start with a fresh one.

If the clone is raised for 18 years, it can be productive for 12 to
16 of those years. Maybe not in hazardous work, but something can
be found. Such work could also serve as 'training periods' for the
clone.

>
>
>>It is very easy to conjure "Third Reich" ghosts in connection with
>> ghosts.
>
> Not really. After all, the Nazis wanted to _kill_ the Jews in the end,
> and thus made some decisions that would have never come to any cost
> conscious megacon manager...

The Nazis never considered Jews to be human. Thus they were animals
to be used in whatever fashion they desired. That is the
connection. The Nazis didn't kill Jews right away because it made
economic sense to use them for forced labor.


>>But they tell tales. And it is cheaper to kill a next-to-dead clone,
>> than to treat it.
>
>
> That's even more the case for immigrants.

But most immigrants have families. Many of these families aren't
under corporate control, and many of these families will ask
questions. It would be hard for a corp to kill an immigrant with no
questions asked.

>
>
>>And you have an army of them things to do your bidding.
>
>
> Well, how are you going to keep them docile?

Psychotropic conditioning. From the late stages of fetal
development (when they have brains, can hear and respond to voice)
through every night while they sleep. It can be played over
headsets while they work. Chemical agents can be introduced into
their food to aid the process.



> That requires even _more_
> tech, which makes clones even more expensive - and even less something
> you just throw away the first time you have a problem with it...

Think of clones like you think of your car. If you have minor
problems, you pay to fix them. If it gets in a bad accident or
develops major problems, you end up replacing it.

>

>
> There's already a type of laborer that don't need any kind of social
> interaction skills. They are called "robots". And IMO it is probably
> cheaper in the end to use either them or some Third World sweatshop
> instead of bothering with clones...

Robots have limitations. Robots only perform tasks they are
programmed to perform, their ability to learn is limited. Usually
within the scope of their primary task. Their sensors are limited
compared to meta-human senses. And it takes a major re-fit to move
a robot off of one type of job and onto another completely different
one.

Humans are highly adaptable and relatively easily trained. They are
also more mobile than most robots.

>
>
>>>For a megacon, it is far cheaper to get some unskilled labor from
>>>Third World nations - there's always more where they came from,
>>> and they are pretty much all desperate to do anything for a small
>>> amount of money...
>>
>>Nope. those guys need transport costs, living quarters and stuff.
>
>
> Usually, they pay for these _themselves_. Or you could just set up
> your factory in the Third World nation in the first place...

But they still need to earn enough money to pay for these. And as
their standard of living increases they will want to continue the
growth. This means they will be expecting raises. A clone is
trained from birth that their is nothing better than what the
company provides for them. They are satisfied because the company
says they are.

>
>
>>A clone
>>doesn't. It is produced on-site, trained on-site and disposed
>
> on-site.
>
> Training costs money - and in the case of clones, probably a _lot_ of
> money. After all, normal humans learn basic motoric skills on their
> own over the course of many years. You don't have this kind of time
> with clones if you want to stay cost-effective...

Cost effectiveness is measured over years, and for some types of
'work' clones can be used even in infancy. (And being a parent,
these kinds of work are very morbid)

>
> And clones still have to eat or sleep, or else you will end up with a
> dead clone and no return on your investment _really_ fast.

Well of course clones have to eat and sleep. All complex machinery
need periods of maintenance (downtime) and fuel. But these periods
can be utilized to enhance the training of the clone.


>>>Now if you _want_ a slave population of artificial human beings, I
>>>suggest reading up on the bioroids of Transhuman Space. It takes
>>>less than a year to construct them, and after three years of intensive
>>>VR education, they are as competent in their profession as any adult
>>>human professional. Their bodies can easily maximized for their
>>>job, and they are usually conditioned to _like_ their job, thus making
>>>them unlikely to revolt - or ask for raises.
>>>
>>>The perfect wage slaves...

Have you been assuming that this wouldn't be the case for clones
that have been classified as products? Conditioning from before
'birth' and throughout their lives. Body mods made to enhance job
performance.

>>
>>Well, no reason why clones in the SR3 universe shouldn't resceive
>
> the same
>
>>treatment.
>>It is possible to enhance the body via BioTech, and you can train
>
> folks
>
>>with BTL's.
>
>
> But all this costs lots of money - and makes their owners less
> inclined to just "dispose of them".

The bio-roids also cost lots of money too. More so because the cost
of production and training is squashed into 4 years.

>
> Even Transhuman Space's bioroids get access to medical treatment to
> lengthen their operational duration. And if they can't be used in a
> certain job anymore, they are just sold to a new owner at a reduced
> price who _can_ find a new use for them - for snuff videos, if nothing
> else.

The same can be said for clones.

>
> You don't throw anything away you could still use. Recycling is the
> way of the future, after all... ;-)

You also don't throw away potential profits just because the startup
cost is high.

--
Iridios / http://iridios.bravepages.com

Top ten reasons to visit my new site:
5. To drive up my hit counter.
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6/19/03
Message no. 41
From: ra002585@**.unicamp.br (Bira)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 01:43:17 -0300
On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 21:08:47 -0400
Iridios <iridios@********.net> wrote:

> Jürgen Hubert wrote:
>
> >>And a view doesn't need to be "correct" or "sane" to be
held
> >> (Anti-Semites are a good example), it only has to be there.
> >>And really, something that hasn't a mother but is grown is not
> >>a person, is it?
> >
> >
> > While many people will share this point of view, many others won't,
> > and a sensible corp woouldn't want to loose the latter as paying
> > customers.
>
> That's the reason for shell companies, fronts, and loosely
> affiliated "partnerships". All to distance a corp from possible bad
> business.

Even if they do use that, what's the point? They'd only be wasting even
more time and money keeping these shell companies up while they wait 20
years for _them_ to be viewed as evil bastards and burned up by a PR
backlash.

> >
> > Plus, it is easier to discriminate against metahumans. After all, they
> > _look_ differently! ;-)
>
> And simple genetic tweaking couldn't make clones blue? There isn't
> a race of humanity that gives birth to blue offspring. The blue
> people must not be natural. ;)

If even you think that's a joke, imagine how seriously people would take
it :).

> > I simply don't buy this. Clones, whether the normal, realistic type
> > (the ones that take 18 years to reach adulthood like the rest of us),
> > or the silly cinematic kind that gets instant education, are a
> > significant investment for the corp - far more so than any cheap
> > unskilled human labor.
>
> You wouldn't use unskilled human labor in a uranium processing
> factory. The legal and publicly acknowledged ones will likely be
> robotic in nature, but the illegal kind might depend on a more
> mobile force.

Pay some runners to steal a few robots for you, or jury rig your own
drones. Producing clones, waiting for them to grow up, and teaching all
they need to know in order to function, is much more expensive than even
setting up a robot factory.

> Unskilled labor is good for basic, low danger grunt work. But what
> unskilled worker is going to volunteer for hazardous work without a
> lot of pay? Clones will have been 'trained' to accept dangerous
> work as acceptable. Whether they're indoctrinated for 18 years or
> programmed with psychotropic braintapes. Sure there is some heavy
> upfront investment, but the costs decrease over time. And the corp
> that uses normal humans for hazardous work faces the cost of health
> care and life insurance for the worker. Not to mention lost
> business due to strikes, sickness, family leave, and etc.

This "up front cost" is just not worth it, whatever way you look at it.
No truly hazardrous job can be classified as "unskilled labor". Paying a
trained professional is much safer and cheaper than setting up a clone
production line and _waiting_ 18 years for your workers to grow. If the
only danger is actually being there, buying some robots is still much
cheaper, and if mobility is a problem, by 2060 you can get some pretty
mobile drones.

> > You _don't_ throw that kind of investment away
> > when there's a relatively cheap way to fix it instead. In fact, I'd
> > say that this kind of clone will get _better_ medical treatment than
> > your typical immigrant worker - simply because it makes good economic
> > sense.
>
> Corps will see the savings in not having to pay a decent wage for
> 20+ years per worker. Also not having to pay health insurance for
> 20+, not losing business due to lost manhours. The cost to produce
> a clone seems great, but you need to factor in all the secondary
> costs involved with employing someone over 20+ years.

Which are still smaller than raising some clone for 20 years. Your
average working will earn you much more than you've paid him during that
time, while a clone would contribute almost nothing. Making them do
menial tasks wouldn't begin to compensate for the necessary expenditure.

> Robots have limitations. Robots only perform tasks they are
> programmed to perform, their ability to learn is limited. Usually
> within the scope of their primary task. Their sensors are limited
> compared to meta-human senses. And it takes a major re-fit to move
> a robot off of one type of job and onto another completely different
> one.
>
> Humans are highly adaptable and relatively easily trained. They are
> also more mobile than most robots.

Well, robots are perfectly suited for the kind of unskilled, hazardrous
labor you've been marketing clones for. And 2060 robots can be pretty
mobile.

If you really need the creativity and expertise of a human being, use
drones instead or robots, and have your human workers operate them
remotely. If each of them operates in captain's chair mode, you could
have two or three riggers directing a whole super-factory, from anywhere
in the world. And it'd be cheaper than raising clones.

You say clones are cheaper, but they're not, really. The 20-year waiting
period is a big turn-off, even if you disregard any moral qualm the corp
executives might have. Why raise a clone for decades when all he will do
in that time is cost you meganuyen, and be no more than an unskilled
laborer when he's "finished"? The sort of task you can set him to when
he's a child by no means pays the cost of even creating him in the first
place.

You can instead hire a human worker that has been trained and raised at
no previous expense to you and have him start producing within a few
days, more than earning his pay. Even on the long run, the old-fashioned
way is cheaper.

--
Bira
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br ou
http://www24.brinkster.com/shadowlandbr/index.html
Message no. 42
From: danturek@*******.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 01:55:11 -0400
>>Someone else mentioned the astral stuff - insect spirits and the like.

Bira:
>Again, unless there's forced-growth, using normal people is the way to
go for those insect shamans that don't want to wait decades for Ultimate
Power.

I could see Roach Queen happily infesting children and placing them in
different adoption agencies. Not all insects want a large hive, and I've
never heard of an insect shaman living long enough to do anything after the
queen arrived.

Obviously, newborns are best, since they get adopted the most. This could
work well during the SURGE era.

>>Another simple one is replacement. Whack someone, replace with clone. So
>>they are mentally undeveloped now, under certain "accidents that were
>>almost fatal" that is quite understandable.

Bira:
>Again, not possible without forced growth unless people somehow turn
>into babies due to SURGE. Even _with_ forced growth, the a bank clone is
>so underdeveloped it might as well be dead.

Yes, for most of my ideas it works a little better and is not as nasty if
forced growth is used.
But not everyone that gets killed is an adult. Not every replacement has to
be fully believable.
I was thinking of this for replacing an otaku child being used as bait to
get the rest of the tribe.

Slayer added:

>The biggest problem here that seems to be getting missed my some people is
that, regardless of individual beliefs on the topic, clones are still
self-aware sentient human beings just like you.

Bira's argument was that it would take too long for the mental abilities to
develop, and I agree.
I have dealt with 3 year olds, and while they are not dumb, their ignorance
of the world (some would just call it naive, but in SR its a word I try to
avoid) would cause problems. Who wants to hold a clone that long?

Slayer continued:

>Even if you could force-grow
a clone (or figure out a way to spawn a fully grown one) and train it a la
The Matrix ("I know Kung-Fu"), the clone is NOT going to be a mindless copy
of the original. Everyone needs to stop thinking of clones as circa-1950s
Buck Rogers episodes. We can't even begin to comprehend the psychological
side-effects of a forced-growth existence.

Assuming a fully controlled environment it should be a somewhat brainwashed
individual. Like the children that are raised within a cult, or the
mini-soldiers from Dark Angel. Add in psychotropic conditioning and
skillwires and you have a versatile creature that requires minimal
maintenance. While the up-front cost is prohibitive for most, using it for a
long term goal would be fairly inexpensive providing no major problems (such
as advertising what is going on or mindless destruction by shadowrunners).
The clone vats, skillwires, etc. are reusable (you would obviously have to
replace wires as the person grows, so a kid could have Used 2, an adolescent
Used 3 with a slightly larger datapath) and food, especially crappy soy
food, is quite cheap in SR.

The difficult part is having a long range goal worth acheiving. I could see
it for an aquaculture area, especially if you first modify the original to
breathe underwater and find a way to splice that into the DNA (either
through Biotech or the method in DNA/DOA).

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Message no. 43
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:23:51 +1000 (EST)
This should get the mind ticking, did anyone ever
stop to think that when you start cloning people to
replace them as slaves or an exact copy of a valuable
persons who died etc. that you will ultimately
overpopulate the world & whittle away at our precious
resources until where extinct! there's a reason why we
all die, It's called cycling population.(or recycling
to scum who don't value human life ;)

GZ

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Message no. 44
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:08:15 +0200
According to Robert Ennew, on Friday 20 June 2003 08:23 the word on the
street was...

> there's a reason why we
> all die, It's called cycling population.(or recycling
> to scum who don't value human life ;)

"Please report to the food vats, friend citizen" seems an appropriate
comment to make now, especially in a thread with a subject line like this
one has :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hooligans (zn) baldadige watervogel
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 45
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:32:38 +0200
Am Thu, 19 Jun 2003 08:25:57 +0200 hat Jürgen Hubert <jhubert@***.de>
geschrieben:

> While many people will share this point of view, many others won't,
> and a sensible corp woouldn't want to loose the latter as paying
> customers.

Anyways, who says a corp will _tell_ about using clones?
If I did, I wouldn't. Sure, people would suspect something like this, but
who believes a SINless or a shadowrunner? Or even a dead person?

> Plus, it is easier to discriminate against metahumans. After all, they
> _look_ differently! ;-)

No problem with clones. What do you want the to have? Four breasts? Blue
skin? Cloning and genetic engineering (both would go hand in hand in
science, I guess) are a powerfull combo.

>> It is very easy to conjure "Third Reich" ghosts in connection with
> ghosts.
>
> Not really. After all, the Nazis wanted to _kill_ the Jews in the end,
> and thus made some decisions that would have never come to any cost
> conscious megacon manager...

The Nazis wanted to get rid of them in the first place. The killing
started, when they saw no escape. In the hindsight, it had to result in
deportations and massmurder, but it slowly developed.

> That's even more the case for immigrants.

Well, no. Immigrants have family. Clones don't. The family of an immigrant
will wonder what happened.

>> And you have an army of them things to do your bidding.
>
> Well, how are you going to keep them docile? That requires even _more_
> tech, which makes clones even more expensive - and even less something
> you just throw away the first time you have a problem with it...

Well, it doesn't. Ask survivors of the Arcology. You can addict somebody
quite easily, and very cheaply, especially if you are considering a small
spot, like a factory or so.
And training a clone is _very_ cheap. Implant skillwires, plug in skill
soft, and it knows what to do.

> There's already a type of laborer that don't need any kind of social
> interaction skills. They are called "robots". And IMO it is probably
> cheaper in the end to use either them or some Third World sweatshop
> instead of bothering with clones...

Well, robots cannot do the same quality control as humans. I think they are
more capable in the future, but not necessarily.
And a robot (or the heavy duty drones) are stuck in one place. Clones
aren't.

> Usually, they pay for these _themselves_. Or you could just set up
> your factory in the Third World nation in the first place...

And produce your workforce on spot with enough starting material to look
like you were hiring folk from the street.

> Training costs money - and in the case of clones, probably a _lot_ of
> money. After all, normal humans learn basic motoric skills on their
> own over the course of many years. You don't have this kind of time
> with clones if you want to stay cost-effective...

You do. Implant skillwires, plug in skill soft, be happy.
Of course, that is not creative work they are capable, but we don't want
that from a clone.

> And clones still have to eat or sleep, or else you will end up with a
> dead clone and no return on your investment _really_ fast.

True. But working shifts with folk that do the same work is not a problem.

> So if someone in the next few decades manages to create artificial
> wombs, you wouldn't consider anyone born from them to be a "real
> human"?

I discussed that earlier.

> But all this costs lots of money - and makes their owners less
> inclined to just "dispose of them".

Well, not as much as you think. A chip is mass-produced at the cost of 1
cent, 10 cent with the software. You only need to implant the chipjack.

> Even Transhuman Space's bioroids get access to medical treatment to
> lengthen their operational duration. And if they can't be used in a
> certain job anymore, they are just sold to a new owner at a reduced
> price who _can_ find a new use for them - for snuff videos, if nothing
> else.
>
> You don't throw anything away you could still use. Recycling is the
> way of the future, after all... ;-)

Have you seen Matrix? The dead are fed to the living. You don't have to
waste your clones.


--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster from Hell and GeneralIdiot

http://www.jack-ryan.de/shadowrun
The Linux ShadowRun Character Generator Developer's Mailinglist : LSRCG-
developers@***********.net
Message no. 46
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 12:08:35 +0200
Am Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:08:15 +0200 hat Gurth <gurth@******.nl> geschrieben:

> "Please report to the food vats, friend citizen" seems an appropriate
> comment to make now, especially in a thread with a subject line like this
> one has :)

And remeber: The Computer is your friend, don't you agree, citizen? Or do
you want to suggest that The Computer is wrong, citizen?


--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster from Hell and GeneralIdiot

http://www.jack-ryan.de/shadowrun
The Linux ShadowRun Character Generator Developer's Mailinglist : LSRCG-
developers@***********.net
Message no. 47
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen Hubert)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:10:42 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Iridios" <iridios@********.net>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun


> Jürgen Hubert wrote:
>

> >>>And this differs from illegal immigrants how?
> >>
> >>Clones don't go see the doctor. They see the crematory. You can't
do
> >> that with illegal immigrants (Not in a large scale, anyways).
> >
> >
> > I simply don't buy this. Clones, whether the normal, realistic
type
> > (the ones that take 18 years to reach adulthood like the rest of
us),
> > or the silly cinematic kind that gets instant education, are a
> > significant investment for the corp - far more so than any cheap
> > unskilled human labor.
>
> You wouldn't use unskilled human labor in a uranium processing
> factory. The legal and publicly acknowledged ones will likely be
> robotic in nature, but the illegal kind might depend on a more
> mobile force.
>
> Unskilled labor is good for basic, low danger grunt work. But what
> unskilled worker is going to volunteer for hazardous work without a
> lot of pay? Clones will have been 'trained' to accept dangerous
> work as acceptable. Whether they're indoctrinated for 18 years or
> programmed with psychotropic braintapes. Sure there is some heavy
> upfront investment, but the costs decrease over time. And the corp
> that uses normal humans for hazardous work faces the cost of health
> care and life insurance for the worker. Not to mention lost
> business due to strikes, sickness, family leave, and etc.

This whole scheme means that lots of money is tied into a business
cycle that lasts for _more than 18 years_, with no certainity if it
will pay off, and some quite bad PR consequences if it doesn't. Most
businesses that do money from tech have business cycles (i.e., a
return on investment) of a few years at the most. Such long-term
projects can make sense if you build giant dams, power plants, or
magnetic rails to shoot payloads into space.

But for blue slave workers that will soon die from radiation poisoning
in an uranium processing factory? Somehow this blows my suspension of
disbelief...

Companies want to make money. And no matter how I look at this, this
seems to be extremely bad business to me. Not unless you can get these
workers online within a year or two - but for this, you need to create
some artificial brain. See my "bioshells" sub-thread for this...

> > You _don't_ throw that kind of investment away
> > when there's a relatively cheap way to fix it instead. In fact,
I'd
> > say that this kind of clone will get _better_ medical treatment
than
> > your typical immigrant worker - simply because it makes good
economic
> > sense.
>
> Corps will see the savings in not having to pay a decent wage for
> 20+ years per worker. Also not having to pay health insurance for
> 20+, not losing business due to lost manhours. The cost to produce
> a clone seems great, but you need to factor in all the secondary
> costs involved with employing someone over 20+ years.

But for much of these 20+ years, they can't replace an adult human
worker! Instead, they need to be fed, given housing, and given a
rudimentary education.

Far better to build your factory in some Third World hellhole where
nobody gets a decent education and health insurance is an alien
concept.

> If the cost to repair a clone is more than the cost to bring a new
> one online (and they would have young clones ready to put to use),
> they can just destroy it and start with a fresh one.

With humans, they can just fire the broken one and hire a new one.

> If the clone is raised for 18 years, it can be productive for 12 to
> 16 of those years. Maybe not in hazardous work, but something can
> be found. Such work could also serve as 'training periods' for the
> clone.

If it is too hard work, the clone will suffer from medical problems
that will make it a less effective worker later on.

> >>It is very easy to conjure "Third Reich" ghosts in connection with
> >> ghosts.
> >
> > Not really. After all, the Nazis wanted to _kill_ the Jews in the
end,
> > and thus made some decisions that would have never come to any
cost
> > conscious megacon manager...
>
> The Nazis never considered Jews to be human. Thus they were animals
> to be used in whatever fashion they desired. That is the
> connection. The Nazis didn't kill Jews right away because it made
> economic sense to use them for forced labor.

However, their efforts to kill them were hugely uneconomical, even
hindering the war effort at times. And young children, who were unable
to work, were often among the first to die. Young clones, on the other
hand, would need to be fed and sheltered for many years until they can
become productive workers.


> >>But they tell tales. And it is cheaper to kill a next-to-dead
clone,
> >> than to treat it.
> >
> >
> > That's even more the case for immigrants.
>
> But most immigrants have families. Many of these families aren't
> under corporate control, and many of these families will ask
> questions. It would be hard for a corp to kill an immigrant with no
> questions asked.

Who cares what happens in the Barrens? And if a corp simply refuses to
let relatives into extraterritorial corporate buildings, what's the
illegal immigrant to do? Call Lone Star?

And most of these families are in their country of origin anyway, so
they are in no position to investigate...


> > There's already a type of laborer that don't need any kind of
social
> > interaction skills. They are called "robots". And IMO it is
probably
> > cheaper in the end to use either them or some Third World
sweatshop
> > instead of bothering with clones...
>
> Robots have limitations. Robots only perform tasks they are
> programmed to perform, their ability to learn is limited. Usually
> within the scope of their primary task. Their sensors are limited
> compared to meta-human senses. And it takes a major re-fit to move
> a robot off of one type of job and onto another completely different
> one.
>
> Humans are highly adaptable and relatively easily trained. They are
> also more mobile than most robots.

But if you allow humans to learn and display their adaptivity, they
could easily become independent-minded. Suppressing that makes them
more docile workers - but less useful ones...

> >>>For a megacon, it is far cheaper to get some unskilled labor from
> >>>Third World nations - there's always more where they came from,
> >>> and they are pretty much all desperate to do anything for a
small
> >>> amount of money...
> >>
> >>Nope. those guys need transport costs, living quarters and stuff.
> >
> >
> > Usually, they pay for these _themselves_. Or you could just set up
> > your factory in the Third World nation in the first place...
>
> But they still need to earn enough money to pay for these. And as
> their standard of living increases they will want to continue the
> growth. This means they will be expecting raises.

This hasn't happened in the real world, so why should it happen in
2060?

> >>>Now if you _want_ a slave population of artificial human beings,
I
> >>>suggest reading up on the bioroids of Transhuman Space. It takes
> >>>less than a year to construct them, and after three years of
intensive
> >>>VR education, they are as competent in their profession as any
adult
> >>>human professional. Their bodies can easily maximized for their
> >>>job, and they are usually conditioned to _like_ their job, thus
making
> >>>them unlikely to revolt - or ask for raises.
> >>>
> >>>The perfect wage slaves...
>
> Have you been assuming that this wouldn't be the case for clones
> that have been classified as products? Conditioning from before
> 'birth' and throughout their lives. Body mods made to enhance job
> performance.

The difference is that the bioroids in TS are fully trained and
useable within three years - and they are almost as good as a
highly-trained professional who has worked in his job for a long time.

Both biotechnology and VR training are decades more advanced in
Transhuman Space than in Shadowrun, which is why bioroids are a viable
concept in Transhuman Space (and even they tend to get replaced by
robots in the more advanced nations), and Shadowrun clone workers
aren't.

> >>Well, no reason why clones in the SR3 universe shouldn't resceive
> >
> > the same
> >
> >>treatment.
> >>It is possible to enhance the body via BioTech, and you can train
> >
> > folks
> >
> >>with BTL's.
> >
> >
> > But all this costs lots of money - and makes their owners less
> > inclined to just "dispose of them".
>
> The bio-roids also cost lots of money too. More so because the cost
> of production and training is squashed into 4 years.

Not really - the VR training programs can be used over and over again,
and the biogenesis tanks are dirt cheap in TS. A typical bioroid costs
about $150,000. Since a typical US citizen in TS is about five times
as wealthy as a modern American (and typical Europeans are twice as
wealthy as _that_), they are pretty affordable, and a useful
investment...

> > Even Transhuman Space's bioroids get access to medical treatment
to
> > lengthen their operational duration. And if they can't be used in
a
> > certain job anymore, they are just sold to a new owner at a
reduced
> > price who _can_ find a new use for them - for snuff videos, if
nothing
> > else.
>
> The same can be said for clones.

But the profit margin is much, much lower...

> > You don't throw anything away you could still use. Recycling is
the
> > way of the future, after all... ;-)
>
> You also don't throw away potential profits just because the startup
> cost is high.

Well, most companies, if given the choice between a business that
makes a profit sometime in the distant future, and one that makes the
same profit, but much sooner, will choose the latter...


- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html
Message no. 48
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 14:55:34 +0200
Am Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:10:42 +0200 hat Jürgen Hubert <jhubert@***.de>
geschrieben:

> But if you allow humans to learn and display their adaptivity, they
> could easily become independent-minded. Suppressing that makes them
> more docile workers - but less useful ones...

What? For non-creative labour? True. But not at creative labour.

> The difference is that the bioroids in TS are fully trained and
> useable within three years - and they are almost as good as a
> highly-trained professional who has worked in his job for a long time.

Same can be said for humans: You can implant Skill Wires at the age of 8
(constantly adapting these for the growth, not that much costly), and plug
in a skill soft.
Voila: A highly skilled worker.

> Not really - the VR training programs can be used over and over again,
> and the biogenesis tanks are dirt cheap in TS. A typical bioroid costs
> about $150,000. Since a typical US citizen in TS is about five times
> as wealthy as a modern American (and typical Europeans are twice as
> wealthy as _that_), they are pretty affordable, and a useful
> investment...

Two things: Who says that Fast Growth(tm) isn't availlable for cloning in
SR? I can assume pretty much everything to make things work. And VR
training is possible. It is possible to program teh brain with wrong
memories in SR (Cannon Companion is the source here). And training is
nothing else than memories. ANd of course, skill softs help here, too.

Second thing: The economy to support that wealth in TS must be of a
different kind than ours, since it is next to impossible to keep scuh a
standard wealth without higher prizes. But discussing this is better left
to an economics lecture than a mailing list.

> Well, most companies, if given the choice between a business that
> makes a profit sometime in the distant future, and one that makes the
> same profit, but much sooner, will choose the latter...

Nope. This kind of company will be dead pretty soon. Every company has
short-term and long-term investments running, to keep it profitable. If a
company only follows a trend instead of making it, it will fall behind and
get crushed by the stampede following the trend.

Take a look at Porsche: They recently brought a long-term investment to
fruitition: The new SUV is a product of a) long term planning beforehand)
and b) using a trend. And mybe even shaping it, since the SUV can compete
with the H2 in all kinds, opening a luxury-SUV market (possibly).

Or look at SR: Short-term investments (core rules, adventures) and long-
term investments (meta-plot) are both present here.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster from Hell and GeneralIdiot

http://www.jack-ryan.de/shadowrun
The Linux ShadowRun Character Generator Developer's Mailinglist : LSRCG-
developers@***********.net
Message no. 49
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen_Hubert)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 13:50:02 +0200
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Ennew" <robertennew@*****.com.au>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun


> This should get the mind ticking, did anyone ever
> stop to think that when you start cloning people to
> replace them as slaves or an exact copy of a valuable
> persons who died etc. that you will ultimately
> overpopulate the world & whittle away at our precious
> resources until where extinct!

Unless you use cloning on a _massive_ scale, this won't make any
difference in the face of ordinary overpopulation. Getting children
the normal way (i.e. putting a man and a woman together and wait to
see what happens) is still the cheapest way of getting new humans, and
will remain to be so in the foreseeable future - cloning or not.

> there's a reason why we
> all die, It's called cycling population.(or recycling
> to scum who don't value human life ;)

Yes, Mother Nature can be a harsh mistress...

On the other hand, I definietly wouldn't mind a couple of centuries.
So maybe we should all move to the asteroid belt so that we have more
resources to exploit - and thus are able to maintain a higher
population...


- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html
Message no. 50
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:08:09 +0200
Dan Turek wrote:
> Slayer continued:
>
> >Even if you could force-grow
> a clone (or figure out a way to spawn a fully grown one) and
> train it a la The Matrix ("I know Kung-Fu"), the clone is NOT
> going to be a mindless copy of the original. Everyone needs
> to stop thinking of clones as circa-1950s Buck Rogers
> episodes. We can't even begin to comprehend the psychological
> side-effects of a forced-growth existence.
>
> Assuming a fully controlled environment it should be a
> somewhat brainwashed
> individual. Like the children that are raised within a cult, or the
> mini-soldiers from Dark Angel.
>
> [snip]

Except the mini-soldiers in Dark Angel escaped didn't they? After thorough
brainwashing and conditioning since birth, they still rebelled. That's the
point: you can't accurately predict the psychological effects of such an
existence. You can try to contain it as much as possible, but in the end,
there are far too many variables to content with.

Anyone seen The Second Renaissance (Animatrix)? The story of how even
AI-enabled drones came to demand civil rights and fair treatment as
"people". And all this was the basis for the Matrix story we know.


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon


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Message no. 51
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: [LONG] Send In The Clones! Future Tech in Shadowrun
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:00:15 +0200
Am Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:08:09 +0200 hat Steve Garrard <SteveG@****
systems.co.za> geschrieben:

> Anyone seen The Second Renaissance (Animatrix)? The story of how even
> AI-enabled drones came to demand civil rights and fair treatment as
> "people". And all this was the basis for the Matrix story we know.

Yep. And I bet any megacorp will build in precautions for that. A Big Red
Switch, shutting down any clone misbehaving.

Maybe even limiting their mental abilities to an extant that their are
still useful, but are as smart as a brick.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster from Hell and GeneralIdiot

http://www.jack-ryan.de/shadowrun
The Linux ShadowRun Character Generator Developer's Mailinglist : LSRCG-
developers@***********.net

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