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Message no. 1
From: hAPPY gUY <FSAJB3@******.BITNET>
Subject: Lordy do I hate that Astral crap!
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 00:16:49 -0900
Here is a question: Does anybody else feel that the easy access to the
astral plane detracts from the techno side of shadowrun? With access as it
is now, a mage has "Been there, done that" before the Samurai character has
picked up the phone to call his favorite street contact. And watchers are,
aside from being really annoying, can decimate the joy-joy value of a
scenario involving a search for people. Of course the GM can jump through
the obligatory hoops of active summoning circles, wards etc. but players
have this rather upsetting habit of bombing the blue sky with spirits until
eventually you might have to concede that the NPC of interest has moved from
one warded location to another. Whoa, check that grammer in the first part of
this message. English isn't a requirement for this board is it? Any way,
whats the prevailing opinion on this ever so compelling subject? I gots me
some thunk thoughts about it, but I just want to hear the opinions of
others. Mind you I think the astral has an important part in the mystical
part of the game, but it is so damn easy......

Happy to be hAPPY gUY and hoping that one day I can aspire to a geek code
of such magnifcent proportions as to dwarf all others with its radiance
Message no. 2
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@********.CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: Lordy do I hate that Astral crap!
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 12:37:02 -0500
On Mon, 31 Jan 1994, hAPPY gUY wrote:

> Here is a question: Does anybody else feel that the easy access to the
> astral plane detracts from the techno side of shadowrun? With access as it
>......others. Mind you I think the astral has an important part in the
> mystical part of the game, but it is so damn easy......

I think that the dangers of astral travel balance the ease of
entry..Afterall even a decker can jack out if he/she notices that
something is going wrong around his/her meat..Not so with a Mage/Shaman
the magic user simply has to tough it out..And don't forget those
exploding spell locks and foci..My opinion: A fair balance in the
rules..Now if a GM doesn't put out some challenges then that is his/her
fault. Personnally I hate taking my Mages and shaman astral, There is
simply no telling what will happen.....
----------------------GRANITE
Message no. 3
From: steven mancini <mancinis@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Lordy do I hate that Astral crap!
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 11:40:05 EST
To quote hAPPY gUY:
]
] Here is a question: Does anybody else feel that the easy access to the
] astral plane detracts from the techno side of shadowrun?
]
Ya know that's kinda funny. I use to thikn the same way
about astral. I hated a few aspects of it, namely the
way they could project and scout ahead while the rest of
the party sat with their thumbs up their asses. I also
hated the way they could perceive and reveal the truth
behind a being. This made the lives of weres, vamps,
free spirits really suck. When I first posed a statement
similar to yours I was barraged with replies telling
me to give things Masking, add lots of spirit guards,
and ward everything. Great, I thought, the solution was
an escalation of the magic system....

I, on the other hand, have altered astral and it has worked
out *EXTREMELY* well. For those who find magic to be too
powerful, I highly recommend they do the same in their games.
What might that be you may be wondering? Simple:

Minotaur's new rules for the astral plane?

1. Astral Projection no longer exists. If you do decide to
project, Murray, the force 20 Free Watcher/Real Estate
agent leases your body to a roaming spirit and you never
go back to it, thus dying a slow agonizing death as your
essence fades or the course of a few hours.

a. Yes astral quests still exist and there is no additional
danger in projecting in this manner.

2. Astral Perception only works via TOUCH. You want to assense
that were? Get up in his face and touch him. This can also
be used to "assense" the general "feel" of an environment.

I fully admit some may whine that this limits the magicians in
some ways but I will point out two things in their favour:

1. Grounding? Now the mage has to assense you up close to do
it... but don't feel too safe, full astral creatures,
like spirits/elementals, can still get ya.

2. Illusions now work! No more of this "assense" to see the
spell hiding the magician. Illusions are real handy now
that people cannot use perception to see through them at
a distance.

These rules have been incorporated in my game for over 8
months and the players have not complained at all. In fact,
many of them like it better this way, both mundane and magi
alike. They have been play-tested and work out extremely well.
I know a few of 'em even read this list and they can add what
they like to this opinion freely (as in I am encouraging them).

-Da Minotaur
Message no. 4
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Lordy do I hate that Astral crap!
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 12:39:39 -0600
A very Unhappy Guy queried:
UG>Here is a question: Does anybody else feel that the easy access to the
UG>astral plane detracts from the techno side of shadowrun?

Shade's reply answers most of the questions: Only Elementals and Watchers
can search, only Watchers and Greater Form Spirits can cross domain lines,
etc.

I would like to add that astral thingies (Spirits and Watchers) can only
search for someone whose aura they know, either from seeing it while on patrol
or if the summoning mage knows the target's aura. I think descriptions will
work (I tell someone else's spirit what the bad guy looks like) but I'm not
sure.

>is now, a mage has "Been there, done that" before the Samurai character has
>picked up the phone to call his favorite street contact.

Spirits do have their limitations, most notably being that they can only do
what they're told. Spirits are not all knowing, and other PC contacts may
very well have information overlooked or not searched for at all by the
spirit. Finally, Sometimes contacts are need to provide more material
resources or information that spirits simply cannot provide.

Furthermore, Smaurai, Riggers, Deckers and others have their place in the
game. Shadowrun is based on teamwork, without which no adventure will be
sccessfully completed.


J Roberson
Message no. 5
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@***.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Lordy do I hate that Astral crap!
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 14:49:09 -0500
Well, that all depends on how the GM balances the game. I've been
a Shadowrun player for a while now, and know the game pretty well, but
since my G.M. is more of a technophile (as am I), such strangenesses as
Astral Space and Totemic Magic really haven't affected the game.
It looks as if Astral Space will soon, as we have a mage character
and some mage enemies. Having a mage is a very good thing, it just
changes the balance from the combat and technodetective work I'm used to.
Message no. 6
From: Shockwave <r3evw@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Lordy do I hate that Astral crap!
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 10:31:11 EDT
>
> To quote hAPPY gUY:
> ]
> ] Here is a question: Does anybody else feel that the easy access to the
> ] astral plane detracts from the techno side of shadowrun?
> ]
>

I'm starting to come into the mind of "Use it too much, and it just might burn
you" Having the party mage jump astral every five minutes? Have a Waith,
Nomad, or Free Spirit decide to start following him, waiting for him to jump
into their world. One good smack by one of these, and I'm sure the mages might
start to think twice about going astral all the time.

Catch Ya on the Shadows,
ShockWave
(Now since my Moniker of
CyberKnight is taken...:-)

+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Eric V. Wessel Internet: r3evw@***.cc.uakron.edu |
| BS Purdue University '93 BITnet: r3evw@******* |
| Other Internet: dh731@*********.Freenet.edu |
| " What did you expect, Shakespeare? " - Me |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 7
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@********.CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: Lordy do I hate that Astral crap!
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 22:58:07 -0500
On Wed, 2 Feb 1994, Shockwave wrote:

> >
> > To quote hAPPY gUY:
> > ]
> > ] Here is a question: Does anybody else feel that the easy access to the
> > ] astral plane detracts from the techno side of shadowrun?

Of course if all you want is the Tech stuff there is always that other
game...Cyberpunk - I have a problem in a game that makes you want to say
your a punk?!?

> ....too much, and it just
might burn
> you" ...., or Free Spirit decide to start following him, waiting for him
to jump
> into their world. One good smack by one of these,

Now, I do agree - there are hazards in astral space and any good GM would
make sure that they crop up from time to time..However If you don't like
dealing with magic 1] Rule NO MAGES [This will make you real popular with
those of your group that like to run a magic character] 2] Switch to
another game system if all you want is tech stuff try cyberpunk and if
you want monsters too try gamma world [Of course you may need to find new
people to play with] 2] If you are the GM do your part and make astral
space a place that is a good place to visit but a challenge NOT
punishment for spoiling your nicely laid plans....
Afterall a magic user is simply using those things available to him when
he/she uses astral space..Penalizing the mage for using Astral Space is
like saying "ok nobody in the party is allowed to use any comm gear and
those lowlight goggles are out too..I mean come on..
----------------------GRANITE
Message no. 8
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@********.CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: Lordy do I hate that Astral crap!
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 23:21:32 -0500
On Wed, 2 Feb 1994, Shockwave wrote:

> >
> > To quote hAPPY gUY:
> > ]
> > ] Here is a question: Does anybody else feel that the easy access to the
> > ] astral plane detracts from the techno side of shadowrun?
> > ]



> >
>
> I'm starting to come into the mind of "Use it too much, and it just might burn
> you" Having the party mage jump astral every five minutes? Have a Waith,
> Nomad, or Free Spirit decide to start following him, waiting for him to jump
> into their world. One good smack by one of these, and I'm sure the mages might
> start to think twice about going astral all the time.
>
> Catch Ya on the Shadows,
> ShockWave
> (Now since my Moniker of
> CyberKnight is taken...:-)
>
> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Eric V. Wessel Internet: r3evw@***.cc.uakron.edu |
> | BS Purdue University '93 BITnet: r3evw@******* |
> | Other Internet: dh731@*********.Freenet.edu |
> | " What did you expect, Shakespeare? " - Me |
> +-----------------------------------------------------------------+
>
Message no. 9
From: The Reverend <mdb0213@******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Lordy do I hate that Astral crap!
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 11:33:21 -0600
I'll make this simple... I know it's talking about the easy access to the
astral, but a lot of these comments also cross over to the "mages suck; they
make me sit on my hands for half the game" thread.


]> > ] Here is a question: Does anybody else feel that the easy access to the
]> > ] astral plane detracts from the techno side of shadowrun?

Not necessarily. If done right, the two can accentuate each other. However,
it usually winds up being a competition b/n mages and techies.


]1] Rule NO MAGES

Or use the D&D Psion chart. Remember that mages are ~1% of the population.
What are the odds of 2-3 mages being in the same party? Mages are a lot more
frequent with PCs than Black says.

]2] Switch to another game system if all you want is tech stuff try cyberpunk

I'd rather not, thank you. I happen to LIKE the SR feel. It has a sense of
levity that Cyberpunk doesn't.


]he/she uses astral space..Penalizing the mage for using Astral Space is
]like saying "ok nobody in the party is allowed to use any comm gear and
]those lowlight goggles are out too..I mean come on..
This may be true; however, I have sat and watched mages do assorted mage shit
for many years. The mages DO tend to get the better part of game time, unless
(a) you can do shit that they can, and better than they do.
(b) you can do stuff that they cannot. Mages spend massive amounts of karma on
skills, foci, initiation, etc. Get some skills.
(c) you insist on equal time.

Also, when was the last time _you_ waited half an hour for rigger combat to
end? It may not just be the "I can't do any of this", but the "I get sick
of
watching the mages get the lion's share".
(and yeah, I know. "bitch bitch bitch, moan moan moan".)


Rev
Flame War II: In space, no one can hear you read.

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Thwap!