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Message no. 1
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:54:12 -0700
While reading over the LOS discussion, I find myself agreeing with
the side that says you can't have anything blocking LOS. That's just
me. However, (knew it was coming, didn't you) has anyone ever dealt
with the following situation: a mage casts a spell, let's say improved
invisibility, on a sammie in the group. The mage then goes into astral
space and proceeds to follow the sammie, conversing while manifest, and
taking care of the astral AO (Area of Operations). The whole time that
the mage is in the astral, he is still within LOS. The only difference
here is that the spell was cast prior to going astral, otherwise it
couldn't have been cast on the sammie.

The question I put forth for discussion is this: can a mage sustain a
spell after going astral, with or without regards to LOS?

--
Mike Loseke | Eagles may soar, but weasels
mike@*******.com | aren't sucked into jet engines.
Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:13:22 EST
.>
> The question I put forth for discussion is this: can a mage sustain
> a
> spell after going astral, with or without regards to LOS?

THIS is an easy one. The rules clearly state that you cannot sustain
a spell and project. LOS never enters into the argument.

(Sustaining AFTER casting while projecting is a different debate,
however)

-=SwiftOne=-
(Has no one asked how a mage maintains LOS with a target he just made
invisible? Lends credence to MC23's "sublime astral"
argument...although I'll still fight him with regards to decking. :)
Message no. 3
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:37:46 -0500
>>> Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM> 11/04/97 12:54pm
>>>
> The question I put forth for discussion is this: can a mage sustain a
>spell after going astral, with or without regards to LOS?

I recalled a rule that the act of going astral was Exclusive, and therefore
couldn't be done without dropping sustained spells, but I can't find the
ruling. Does anyone else remember this?

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 4
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:28:12 -0500
Brett Borger once dared to write,

>(Has no one asked how a mage maintains LOS with a target he just made
>invisible? Lends credence to MC23's "sublime astral"
>argument...although I'll still fight him with regards to decking. :)

Yeah, that's right. Besides I like the option of the mage close by
keeping the sammie invisible while he's hiding from a hail of bullets.
Earshot from a normal speeking tone I think is a good guideline for
maintaining a link with a target that's out of sight.
Fight eh? Rock'Em Sock'Em Robots, I'm blue let's go!

Compromise? An Edge or Flaw that negates or creates the reaction
from astrally aware magicians decking. You can have it both ways. B>]#
Now we can fight on whether it is an Edge or Flaw

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:17:19 +0100
Mike Loseke said on 10:54/ 4 Nov 97...

> The question I put forth for discussion is this: can a mage sustain a
> spell after going astral, with or without regards to LOS?

AFAIK, it's not possible to sustain a spell while you astrally project.
However, I can't find a rule that says so right now, looking through SRII
and the Grimoire. The closest rule I could find is that non-permanent
magics (including sustained spells) don't affect the magician's attributes
when in astral space (Grimoire page 86), but I'm pretty sure I've read
somewhere that sustaining spells while entering astral space isn't
possible.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Self-inflicted doom.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 6
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:27:33 +1000
Mike wrote:
>
> The question I put forth for discussion is this: can a mage sustain a
>spell after going astral, with or without regards to LOS?

Definitely not, as spells cannot be sustained in astral space. I believe
that projecting is an exclusive activity. Even if it is not, I believe the
rules say that you can't sustain a spell in astral space.

NightRain.

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: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
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Message no. 7
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:38:31 GMT
Gurth writes
>
> AFAIK, it's not possible to sustain a spell while you astrally project.
> However, I can't find a rule that says so right now, looking through SRII
> and the Grimoire. The closest rule I could find is that non-permanent
> magics (including sustained spells) don't affect the magician's attributes
> when in astral space (Grimoire page 86), but I'm pretty sure I've read
> somewhere that sustaining spells while entering astral space isn't
> possible.
>
Ok, its under spell duration, bottom right of last page page (128 i
think) before the set of colour plates in the magic section of SR2.

Ok i knew where yours was, can you reach over and find that
'permanent elementals with karma' rule page reference in GR2 for me :)

Mark
Message no. 8
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:23:30 +0000
> >(Has no one asked how a mage maintains LOS with a target he just made
> >invisible? Lends credence to MC23's "sublime astral"
> >argument...although I'll still fight him with regards to decking. :)

> Yeah, that's right. Besides I like the option of the mage close by
> keeping the sammie invisible while he's hiding from a hail of bullets.
> Earshot from a normal speeking tone I think is a good guideline for
> maintaining a link with a target that's out of sight.
> Fight eh? Rock'Em Sock'Em Robots, I'm blue let's go!

Is this where I bop you and your head pops up? (interesting image
that)

> Compromise? An Edge or Flaw that negates or creates the reaction
> from astrally aware magicians decking. You can have it both ways. B>]#
> Now we can fight on whether it is an Edge or Flaw

As long as it is less than 4 points either way, I'm flexible. Things
above that tend to be unbalnaced (Cortex bomb, higher levels of
hunted, flashbacks, etc)

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 9
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:28:14 +0000
> Ok i knew where yours was, can you reach over and find that
> 'permanent elementals with karma' rule page reference in GR2 for me :)

There are three ways to have an elemental out of LOS (whatever LOS
may be)

1) Physical service. The elemental must be summoned for this express
purpose, and it uses all of its services.

2) Bound to location (person? I don't recall) Spend Karma equal to
Force. Details about what you can order the bound elemental to do
are fuzzy.

3) Astral Patrol. This is the most vague of them all, and as it was
only confirmed as a service by FASAMike, is not concrete. However
the Grimmy2 implies it. For each service expended the elemental
will astrally patrol an area for 24 hours. See Grimmy2 and
Awakenings for more detail.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 10
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:05:05 -0700
Quoth Gurth:
>
> Mike Loseke said on 10:54/ 4 Nov 97...
>
> > The question I put forth for discussion is this: can a mage sustain a
> > spell after going astral, with or without regards to LOS?
>
> AFAIK, it's not possible to sustain a spell while you astrally project.
> However, I can't find a rule that says so right now, looking through SRII
> and the Grimoire. The closest rule I could find is that non-permanent
> magics (including sustained spells) don't affect the magician's attributes
> when in astral space (Grimoire page 86), but I'm pretty sure I've read
> somewhere that sustaining spells while entering astral space isn't
> possible.

Doh. Thanks everyone, I had forgotten that astral projection was an
exclusive action. I was just sitting here reading the list when the idea
struck and since I didn't have my books with me...

--
Mike Loseke | Eagles may soar, but weasels
mike@*******.com | aren't sucked into jet engines.
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:58:52 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 11:38/ 5 Nov 97...

> Ok, its under spell duration, bottom right of last page page (128 i
> think) before the set of colour plates in the magic section of SR2.

Yep, even the page number is right. "Magicians may maintain spells while
astrally perceiving (p. 145), but not while astrally projecting (p. 146)."
That answer's Mike's question, I think.

> Ok i knew where yours was, can you reach over and find that
> 'permanent elementals with karma' rule page reference in GR2 for me :)

Page 91, under Astral Security: "A bound elemental, for instance, can be
assigned to astrally guard a given site for 24 hours. This counts as a
service. If the master pays Karma equal to the spirit's Force Rating, the
elemental is bound to watch the site forever, or until it is banished or
killed in astral combat. Once the magician has paid Karma to set the
elemental on astral guard duty, the elemental no longer counts as bound to
its summoner."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Would it make you feel much better, if it was you against the world?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 12
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:51:05 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-05 06:39:35 EST, M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK writes:

>
> Ok i knew where yours was, can you reach over and find that
> 'permanent elementals with karma' rule page reference in GR2 for me :)
>
> Mark
>
Found it, page 91 of the Grimoire II, lower right corner under Astral
Security....4th and final paragraph of that page.

"If the master pays Karma equal to the spirit's Force Rating, the elemental
is bound to watch the site forever, or until it is banished or killed in
astral combat. Once the magician has paid Karma to set the elemental on
astral guard duty, the elemental no longer counts as bound to its summoner."

I know in the old rules (first ed.), there was stuff concerning doing similar
stuff to gain an elemental's assistance forever. I don't know if that is
still retained.

-K
Message no. 13
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:45:28 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-04 13:17:48 EST, mike@******.VERINET.COM writes:

>
> The question I put forth for discussion is this: can a mage sustain a
> spell after going astral, with or without regards to LOS?
>
Ya know, as I was reading, I flashbacked to a memory of a game where a bunch
of players were doing something obnoxious (aren't they always???) when the
rigger/street sam guy looked at the mage, got him to cast improved
invisibility and then had the mage follow him into the area in the astral
(yes, this happened 6 years ago). I argued it wouldn't happen at the time
because the spell was a physical variation and the magician was in Astral,
but that later came back at bit me hard (though the scars have healed).

The more I think about this, the more I honestly get a headache. It is part
of the biggest argument, even beyond grounding IMHO, because essentially it
-IS- where Grounding gets lost as well, the astral to the physical.

-K
Message no. 14
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:48:54 +1000
J. Keith Henry wrote:

>rigger/street sam guy looked at the mage, got him to cast improved
>invisibility and then had the mage follow him into the area in the astral

>The more I think about this, the more I honestly get a headache. It is
part
>of the biggest argument, even beyond grounding IMHO, because essentially
it
>-IS- where Grounding gets lost as well, the astral to the physical.

This one is simple though. Astrally Projecting is an exclusive action, so
you can't sustain your spell when you jump to the astral.

NightRain.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 15
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:58:38 +0000
On 8 Nov 97, NightRain disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> This one is simple though. Astrally Projecting is an exclusive
> action, so you can't sustain your spell when you jump to the astral.

Hmmm... You could interpret this this way: You can't when performing
the action of astral projection. That means, while performing the
Complex Action of going into astral. But what if you gave the spell
to your elemental to sustain, and then took it back after getting
into Astral? Elementals can sustain spells while they're in the
astral, so it's possible...


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Personal feelings don't make for good politics, legal decisions, or business deals. -
Corwin
Message no. 16
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:57:36 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-07 19:54:26 EST, nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU
writes:

> This one is simple though. Astrally Projecting is an exclusive action, so
> you can't sustain your spell when you jump to the astral.
>
> NightRain.
>
Boy if it were so simple. Let me explain player deviance a bit to ya.
Player looks at the rules, says, "I've GOT IT!!!" Promptly turns to his Ally
(he did this with an Elemental Also) and says.."Hold onto this for me"...the
Ally does so, after viewing the spell force first....then once the magician
is astrally projecting....he hands the spells controls over to the mage
again. Sorcery Tests were made for each swap, and the mage wandered off
holding the reigns to his friends invisibility spell.

-K
Message no. 17
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: LOS and spell sustaining
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 08:44:59 +1000
>> This one is simple though. Astrally Projecting is an exclusive action,
so
>> you can't sustain your spell when you jump to the astral.
>>
>> NightRain.
>>
>Boy if it were so simple. Let me explain player deviance a bit to ya.
> Player looks at the rules, says, "I've GOT IT!!!" Promptly turns to his
Ally
>(he did this with an Elemental Also) and says.."Hold onto this for
me"...the
>Ally does so, after viewing the spell force first....then once the
magician
>is astrally projecting....he hands the spells controls over to the mage
>again. Sorcery Tests were made for each swap, and the mage wandered off
>holding the reigns to his friends invisibility spell.


In such a case, I'd be forced to say 'Good on you' and let them get away
with it.

NightRain.

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EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
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