Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu>
Subject: Machinepistols
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 21:23:22 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "TS" == Tim Serpas <wretch@**.com> writes:

TS> ObSR: Does anyone see a good use for Machine pistols?

Depends on the weapon in question. Anything based off the Beretta 93R
concept is moderately useful, depending on the situation.

The problem is that machinepistols have a much higher rate of fire than
submachineguns due to the mechanics involved, and smaller magazines by
necessity. Thus if there is no limiter they burn through a 15-round
magazine in no time.

This is where the 93R comes in. The Beretta 93R is based on the very
reliable and popular 93/93S frame. There are two notable differences,
the action and the barrel. The semiautomatic action of the 93/93S is
replaced with a fully automatic action with a 3-round burst limiter.
The barrel is roughly 3cm longer than the 93/93S and has several grooves
cut in the top near the muzzle (gas venting recoil compensation). It
also adds a folding grip in front, hinged just in front of the trigger
guard, and it can attach a collpsable shoulder stock. What you end up
with is a poor-man's SMG that you can carry in a conventional handgun
holster. It's slightly less powerful than most 9mm SMGs because of the
shorter barrel, and it doesn't carry as much ammunition (there is a
30-round magazine but using it kills any concealability the weapon has).
The tradeoff is that it's a slightly larger than common 9mm handgun.

The 93R is currently in service with Italian special forces units. It
has also made a number of theatrical appearances, notably in "La Femme
Nikita" and "Robocop".

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface

iQCVAwUBMK/mfJ6VRH7BJMxHAQGlpwQAwHVexSxQ4zrU8FFmIXIRFYEZqlk+l1+p
R+SXkjsuFtHA+63WKFMV0BrFV652geMrc111bsnWu9isiDDKiVvUDRDQn4CHwNeP
pv+nhwZIB72/iqbaqzW+3/YzafyAhsyJn3mGUH3FO7YLUdn2Vus+2KVhRhX7B0pb
wFLCtXNLLoc=
CdF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Message no. 2
From: Tim Serpas <wretch@**.com>
Subject: Re: Machinepistols
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 02:46:25 -0600 (CST)
On Sun, 19 Nov 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "TS" == Tim Serpas <wretch@**.com> writes:
> TS> ObSR: Does anyone see a good use for Machine pistols?
>
> The problem is that machinepistols have a much higher rate of fire than
> submachineguns due to the mechanics involved, and smaller magazines by

...but not really reflected in the rules...

> guard, and it can attach a collpsable shoulder stock. What you end up
> with is a poor-man's SMG that you can carry in a conventional handgun
> holster. It's slightly less powerful than most 9mm SMGs because of the
> shorter barrel, and it doesn't carry as much ammunition (there is a
> 30-round magazine but using it kills any concealability the weapon has).
> The tradeoff is that it's a slightly larger than common 9mm handgun.

All this seems in keeping with my vision of these guns, but FASA doesn't
seem to share it. Anyone have revisions they often use?

See, here's my break down:
Gun Conc Ammo Dmg
Crusader 6 40/13 6L or 9M
Scorpion 5 35/11 6L or 9M
Light pistol 5-7 <% 6L
Heavy pistol 4-6 < 9M
SMG 4-5 <2/10 7M or 10S

This says to me that you could use an MP as an LP with more ammo, or as
an HP with less ammo and lots of recoil. Looks like flat out less dmg
than an SMG and comparable ammo. I'd say concealablility is comparable
in all cases. SMGs provide the FA option (I've generalized bunches here).

I would, at least, give them an FA mode, maybe limited to 6 rounds.


Blah blah
Tim
Message no. 3
From: StaintonC@***.com
Subject: Re: Machinepistols
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 10:21:30 -0500
In a message dated 95-11-19 21:34:50 EST, you write:

>The 93R is currently in service with Italian special forces units. It
>has also made a number of theatrical appearances, notably in "La Femme
>Nikita" and "Robocop".
>
>

not to mention the Mac Bolan series of adventure paperbacks
Chris
Message no. 4
From: KASPAR BRYCE PETRUS <Bryce.Kaspar@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 11:34:30 -0700 (MST)
> > ObSR: Does anyone see a good use for Machine pistols?
>
> Reasonably concealability, for those uptown meetings when heavy armour &
> a Panther AssCan just don't cut it (ie. visit by Lone Star Tactical
> Response Team supported by Mr Yellowjacket). Adequate range, in most
> firefights (urban/jungle situations) ranges (from shooter to target) are
> usually below 20 metres. Shock value, PCs/NPCs get a nasty suprise (and
> usually decide to bug out) when that guy's/gal's funny looking heavy pistol
> starts hosing them on full auto.

Especially when the person holding the gun is a Physical adept with
Bioware enhancements and a Firearms skill of 10 (LOTS of little holes in
things downrange)
. .
// Bryce Kaspar \\
// CU Boulder Aerospace \\
// kaspar@***.colorado.edu \\
// _._ \\
.---. .//|\\. .---.
________ / .-. \_________..-~ _.-._ ~-..________ / .-. \_________
\ ~-~ / `-=.___.=-' \ ~-~ /
~~~ ~~~

______________________________________________________________________________

The sun was shining on the sea,Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make the billows smooth and bright --
And this was very odd, because it was the middle of the night.
-- Lewis Carroll
Message no. 5
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 21:10:03 -0500 (EST)
On Sun, 19 Nov 1995, Tim Serpas wrote:

> ObSR: Does anyone see a good use for Machine pistols?

High concealability and lots of ammo. What more do you need?
(besides belt-feed, that is...)

Marc
Message no. 6
From: Cyan Smoker <levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Machine Pistols
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:13:44 -0400
Machine Pistols: (why?)

Why would anyone in their logical minds use a machine pistol? They do the
same basic damage as a Heavy pistol, with 5 times as much recoil, and
comprable concealability. Anyone have any situation where a Scorpion is
superior to a Predator-II?

Cyan
Message no. 7
From: Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:28:34 -0400
It's a sick way to trick a poor gutter punk into spending way more money
on a bad gun. Nonetheless it is a flashier weapon, if that will help.
(perhaps dress duty?)

Dust


On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Cyan Smoker wrote:

> Machine Pistols: (why?)
>
> Why would anyone in their logical minds use a machine pistol? They do the
> same basic damage as a Heavy pistol, with 5 times as much recoil, and
> comprable concealability. Anyone have any situation where a Scorpion is
> superior to a Predator-II?
>
> Cyan
>
Message no. 8
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:46:00 EDT
On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:13:44 -0400 Cyan Smoker
<levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG> writes:

>Machine Pistols: (why?)
>
>Why would anyone in their logical minds use a machine pistol? They do
>the
>same basic damage as a Heavy pistol, with 5 times as much recoil, and
>comprable concealability. Anyone have any situation where a Scorpion
>is
>superior to a Predator-II?


That depends on whether you mean IRL or in SR. IRL, they'd use the guns
because you can get a slightly wider spread out of them (granted, there's
not much you can get out of a three-round burst, but...). In SR, there's
no reason I can think of off the top of my head. They do the same damage,
but with three times the recoil, not quite as many equivalent shots
(unless you regularly use a Max-Power), they're heavier, they cost more,
and they're way more illegal, the street index is higher and they're
harder to get a hold of, and just as big.


Canthros (who needs guns?)
Message no. 9
From: Metal Phoenix <levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:47:02 -0400
What if you load the thing with tracer and explosive rounds? That of
course might ease some of the recoil, but who the hell would bother buying
explosive and tracer light pistol rounds? Not to mention loading the clip?


On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, John E Pederson wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:13:44 -0400 Cyan Smoker
> <levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG> writes:
>
> >Machine Pistols: (why?)
> >
> >Why would anyone in their logical minds use a machine pistol? They do
> >the
> >same basic damage as a Heavy pistol, with 5 times as much recoil, and
> >comprable concealability. Anyone have any situation where a Scorpion
> >is
> >superior to a Predator-II?
>
>
> That depends on whether you mean IRL or in SR. IRL, they'd use the guns
> because you can get a slightly wider spread out of them (granted, there's
> not much you can get out of a three-round burst, but...). In SR, there's
> no reason I can think of off the top of my head. They do the same damage,
> but with three times the recoil, not quite as many equivalent shots
> (unless you regularly use a Max-Power), they're heavier, they cost more,
> and they're way more illegal, the street index is higher and they're
> harder to get a hold of, and just as big.
>
>
> Canthros (who needs guns?)
>
Message no. 10
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:12:23 EDT
On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:28:34 -0400 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
writes:
>It's a sick way to trick a poor gutter punk into spending way more
>money
>on a bad gun. Nonetheless it is a flashier weapon, if that will help.
>(perhaps dress duty?)

The biggest advantage I can see is for the rent-a-cops in the malls: it's
a big gun (intimidation factor), it can put lots of bullets into you
(ditto here), but it won't do (as much) collateral damage (a good thing
in an area with lots of things to catch cross-fire), and you can can get
a lot more precision shots than you can with a heavy pistol (better
controllability on the single shot, IRL).


Canthros (still babbling on something he doesn't know jack about:)
Message no. 11
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:18:19 EDT
On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:47:02 -0400 Metal Phoenix
<levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG> writes:
>What if you load the thing with tracer and explosive rounds? That of
>course might ease some of the recoil, but who the hell would bother
>buying
>explosive and tracer light pistol rounds? Not to mention loading the
>clip?


Why not just buy an SMG? They're about as (il)legal, do more damage, have
more fire modes, weight, cost, and concealability are about the same.


Canthros
Message no. 12
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:48:48 -0600
Metal Phoenix wrote:
|
| What if you load the thing with tracer and explosive rounds? That of
|
[snip]
|
| On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, John E Pederson wrote:
|
| > On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 10:13:44 -0400 Cyan Smoker
| > <levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG> writes:
| >
| > >Machine Pistols: (why?)
| >
[snip]
| >
| > That depends on whether you mean IRL or in SR. IRL, they'd use the guns
|
[snip]

Metal,

Please place your replies *after/below* the quoted post you're
replying to (as I've done here).

Thanks,
-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 13
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:55:39 -0600
Cyan Smoker wrote:
|
| Machine Pistols: (why?)
|
| Why would anyone in their logical minds use a machine pistol? They do the
| same basic damage as a Heavy pistol, with 5 times as much recoil, and
| comprable concealability. Anyone have any situation where a Scorpion is
| superior to a Predator-II?

In terms of number crunching you are correct. However, a Scorpian is
more useful than a Predator if you're providing suppression fire
(putting a lot of bullets into a doorway to keep anybody from coming
through).

In roleplaying terms the Scorpian can do a few things the Predator
can't. If you walk into a crowded room and fire a couple of shots in
the air from a Predator to get peoples attention it'll do the job.
Do the same with a burst from a Scorpian and you'll have their full
attention.

Also, I'd rule that a Scorpian would be more effective at blowing out
a storefront window than a Predator.

It's also a matter of style. When you start comparing weapons don't
just go by the numbers. Also take into account your character's
personality and what his goals are. Hell, your character may just
think that the name "Scorpian" is way cooler than "Predator".

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 14
From: niteGlo Messiah <levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:58:07 -0400
On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, David Buehrer wrote:

> Cyan Smoker wrote:
> |
> | Machine Pistols: (why?)
> |
> | Why would anyone in their logical minds use a machine pistol? They do the
> | same basic damage as a Heavy pistol, with 5 times as much recoil, and
> | comprable concealability. Anyone have any situation where a Scorpion is
> | superior to a Predator-II?
>
> In terms of number crunching you are correct. However, a Scorpian is
> more useful than a Predator if you're providing suppression fire
> (putting a lot of bullets into a doorway to keep anybody from coming
> through).
>
> In roleplaying terms the Scorpian can do a few things the Predator
> can't. If you walk into a crowded room and fire a couple of shots in
> the air from a Predator to get peoples attention it'll do the job.
> Do the same with a burst from a Scorpian and you'll have their full
> attention.
>
> Also, I'd rule that a Scorpian would be more effective at blowing out
> a storefront window than a Predator.
>
> It's also a matter of style. When you start comparing weapons don't
> just go by the numbers. Also take into account your character's
> personality and what his goals are. Hell, your character may just
> think that the name "Scorpian" is way cooler than "Predator".

If you're going for style, I think a Savlette guardian is much more tres
chic. You won't fire as many rounds, but you'll pretty much get the same
effect. Also, if you run into a room firing a machine pistol into the air
you'll look more like a trigger-happy Middle-Eastern terrorist. Not very
professional. But I understand some people are going for that image.
Message no. 15
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:48:08 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-26 12:12:55 EDT, you write:

<< Why would anyone in their logical minds use a machine pistol? They do the
same basic damage as a Heavy pistol, with 5 times as much recoil, and
comprable concealability. Anyone have any situation where a Scorpion is
superior to a Predator-II?
>>

Well, in my campaign since I lowered Heavy Pistols Damage Code down to a
realstic 6M, some players are now using them.

-Bandit
Message no. 16
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:59:38 -0400
On Tuesday, August 26, 1997 10:13, Cyan
Smoker[SMTP:levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG] wrote:
> Machine Pistols: (why?)
>
> Why would anyone in their logical minds use a machine pistol? They do the
> same basic damage as a Heavy pistol, with 5 times as much recoil, and
> comprable concealability. Anyone have any situation where a Scorpion is
> superior to a Predator-II?
>

Shooting clusters of lightly armed targets. A three-round burst can be
spread across three targets, and then the second burst can get another
three. Against unarmored civilians, that can be quite lethal.
(let's see: 6L damage vs a 3 body. Assume MP-gunner has a firearms-4 and a
smartgun link. If the MP has a gas vent system, the gunner has a 5 or
higher strength (not that unlikely) and the MP in question has one of those
folding stock doohickeys, there is essentially no recoil. Multiple target
penalties start to get atrocious, but if the firer saves combat pool, he's
OK.)

Why do you think terrorists like MPs?

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 17
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:01:49 -0400
On Tuesday, August 26, 1997 12:48, M. Sean Martinez[SMTP:ElBandit@***.COM] wrote:
> In a message dated 97-08-26 12:12:55 EDT, you write:
>
> << Why would anyone in their logical minds use a machine pistol? They do the
> same basic damage as a Heavy pistol, with 5 times as much recoil, and
> comprable concealability. Anyone have any situation where a Scorpion is
> superior to a Predator-II?
> >>
>
> Well, in my campaign since I lowered Heavy Pistols Damage Code down to a
> realstic 6M, some players are now using them.

Well, yeah. That applies for my game too. (Actually, I put HPs at 5S, and LPs at 6-7M, but
the principle is the same.)


--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 18
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:22:01 -0500
You wrote:
> It's a sick way to trick a poor gutter punk into spending way more money
> on a bad gun. Nonetheless it is a flashier weapon, if that will help.
> (perhaps dress duty?)

IRL, what's the attraction of a machine pistol?
Well, really, full auto to keep the other side's head down, and the fact that
*most* people really don't wear armor all the time (in which case two or three
bullets in the gut are a lot nastier than even that one .44 Magnum. In game
terms, it doesn't make sense, no, but by the same token: it's not real, it just
tries to be playably real. Say the gangers do like the MPs because they do
more damage (to unarmored targets) even if, in game terms, they actually don't.


Me, I just like the Concealability, and the massive clip size. *shrug*

losthalo
Message no. 19
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:28:11 -0500
You wrote:
> If you're going for style, I think a Savlette guardian is much more tres
> chic. You won't fire as many rounds, but you'll pretty much get the same
> effect. Also, if you run into a room firing a machine pistol into the air
> you'll look more like a trigger-happy Middle-Eastern terrorist. Not very
> professional. But I understand some people are going for that image.

Yeah, but the Savalette... Well, lemme put it this way: burst-fire from a .44
magnum pistol should rip up the wrist of anyone but an Ork or Troll. Some
small humans can't really control that size of round, let alone three at once.
People can handle the recoil from three .32s (the Skorpion's original calibre,
anyway). Personally I just think the Savalette was a bad idea, unless you're
thinking (once again) characters with unnatural strength to use it.

losthalo
Message no. 20
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:46:44 -0700
---Cyan Smoker wrote:
>
> Machine Pistols: (why?)
>
> Why would anyone in their logical minds use a machine pistol? They
do the
> same basic damage as a Heavy pistol, with 5 times as much recoil, and
> comprable concealability. Anyone have any situation where a Scorpion
is
> superior to a Predator-II?

My group had been wondering the same thing for years.

This is one of the reasons we lowered Heavy Pistol damage to 6M in our
games. At least now Machine Pistols doing a 9M with a burst gives you
a reason to choose one.

No, I'm not trying to open the can of worms on lowering HP damage all
over again. I'm just answering the question of what we did to resolve
this in our game. :o)

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
Web Page: Poisoned Elves at www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament

_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 21
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 02:27:00 +0000
On 26 Aug 97 at 10:13, Cyan Smoker wrote:

> Machine Pistols: (why?)
>
> Why would anyone in their logical minds use a machine pistol? They
> do the same basic damage as a Heavy pistol, with 5 times as much
> recoil, and comprable concealability. Anyone have any situation
> where a Scorpion is superior to a Predator-II?
>
> Cyan
>
IRL machine pistols are popular with terrorists and similar because
they are more intimidating than a pistiol and easer to conseal then a
assault rifle or SMG. Further because the fire low powered amuntion
they are easer to control then a SMG. Automatic fire is more macho
is some circles. And lastly since for the most part they can't shoot
(i.e. hit what they aim at) they feel that filling the air with
bullets is just as good.

In SR terms I can not figure any good reason, save its the only gun
available, that an experenced runner would want to carry one.
Gangers, gutter scum and the like on the other hand would prefer
them. As Automatic fire is macho in there circles.

As to changing the damage codes, I do not see the point, present day
MP all fire low power cartidges, the scorpian is chambered for .32
and .380. Please note that the WW II German MP-38 and MP-40 (AKA
Schmisser Machine Pistol) were SMGs, chambered for the 9mm Parabellum
cartidge. This cartridge by SR standards is Heavy Pistol round.
Remember just because it is called something doesn't mean it is it.
For example automatic pistols aren't.

Hope this helps.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 22
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:33:09 -0600
David Hinkley wrote:
|
| In SR terms I can not figure any good reason, save its the only gun
| available, that an experenced runner would want to carry one.

Actually there is a good reason: if you're a lousy shot (low skill
level). Per the rules on suppresive fire in FoF a person with a
skill of 1 would have a better chance of hitting with a Scorpian by
spraying a target with bullets then he would if he fired one shot
from a Predator. (At least I think he would, I haven't worked out an
example.)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 23
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:11:52 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-26 10:46:33 EDT, you write:

> That depends on whether you mean IRL or in SR. IRL, they'd use the guns
> because you can get a slightly wider spread out of them (granted, there's
> not much you can get out of a three-round burst, but...). In SR, there's
> no reason I can think of off the top of my head. They do the same damage,
> but with three times the recoil, not quite as many equivalent shots
> (unless you regularly use a Max-Power), they're heavier, they cost more,
> and they're way more illegal, the street index is higher and they're
> harder to get a hold of, and just as big.

One of my characters, an Elven Hitwoman, uses a Browning Ultra-Power and a
Black Scorpion as weapons of choice, along with a Narcoject pistol. Most
people look at her strange(and most players look at ME strange) for her
choice of weapons. They argue with her that she should choose better weapons,
etc. She probably should. Wanna know why she doesn't? Character quirk. That's
the best reason I can think of to carry an illogical weapons loadout.

> Canthros (who needs guns?)

Those of us who can't turn into a big, furry beast, silly! =)

Wolfstar
Message no. 24
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:19:48 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-26 12:13:05 EDT, you write:

> Machine Pistols: (why?)
>
> Why would anyone in their logical minds use a machine pistol? They do the
> same basic damage as a Heavy pistol, with 5 times as much recoil, and
> comprable concealability. Anyone have any situation where a Scorpion is
> superior to a Predator-II?

When you want to provide cover fire, when you want to hit 2(3 with a
smartgun) targets at the same time, when you want a light pistol with a LOT
of ammo in it, and as I said to Canthros, character quirk.

Wolfstar
Message no. 25
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:42:07 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-26 13:48:51 EDT, you write:

> Well, in my campaign since I lowered Heavy Pistols Damage Code down to a
> realstic 6M, some players are now using them.

Ummm, WHY is a damage code of 6M more realistic instead of more cheese? You
are aware of high-calibre round statistics? Well, in case you're not:
.45 ACP, probably on the low end of the heavy calibre rounds, has a one shot
stop percentage of 94-96%. This means whoever you shoot at has that
percentage chance of sitting down and shutting up because of the bullet
wound. The .45 ACP also has approximately an 88% one shot kill ratio. Same as
one shot stop, except they lay down in a pine box instead of sitting down and
shutting up.
Now, assume that the Ares Predator II is at least a .45 ACP handgun, if not
more powerful, and re-work the damage stats to printed levels.

Wolfstar
Message no. 26
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:07:29 EDT
On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:11:52 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:

<<One of my characters, an Elven Hitwoman, uses a Browning Ultra-Power
and a Black Scorpion as weapons of choice, along with a Narcoject pistol.
Most people look at her strange(and most players look at ME strange) for
her choice of weapons. They argue with her that she should choose better
weapons, etc. She probably should. Wanna know why she doesn't? Character
quirk.
That's the best reason I can think of to carry an illogical weapons
loadout.>>


That would seem to be the problem: aside from suppressive fire, that's
the _only_ reason to bother with it. Pretty much the same thing with the
Browning Ultra-Power (or the Max-Power, for that matter). <shrug> It
doesn't bother me too much, but there aren't too many things that seem
to.



>> Canthros (who needs guns?)
>
> Those of us who can't turn into a big, furry beast, silly! =)


Actually, I was referring to magic:) The right spell's as good as a gun,
doesn't run out of ammo, and can tons more subtle:) But I don't want to
start a magic vs. guns debate, both have their place, after all (the
gun's usually faster, for instance:).


/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /
Message no. 27
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:19:14 EDT
On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:42:07 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 97-08-26 13:48:51 EDT, you write:
>
>> Well, in my campaign since I lowered Heavy Pistols Damage Code down
>to a
>> realstic 6M, some players are now using them.
>
> Ummm, WHY is a damage code of 6M more realistic instead of more
>cheese?
> Now, assume that the Ares Predator II is at least a .45 ACP handgun,
>if not
>more powerful, and re-work the damage stats to printed levels.


Depends on how exactly you do it. There has been some discussion on a
Medium Pistol to bridge the gap between light and heavy. At this point, I
could easily consider the Predator (and Predator II) as 9mm or equivalent
semi-autos, and I'd lump them in with the Medium guns. .45 ACP would
probably still wind up as heavies, but I doubt the Predator fires that
big a round. So, I'd line things up like this:

Hold-out
.22 LR

Light
.32, .22

Medium
.38, .40, 9mm, 10mm, etc

Heavy
.45, almost any Magnum round, .50 ae

But, I won't claim to be an expert on ballistics, and I don't remember
what the firearm experts said the last time this came up.


/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /
Message no. 28
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:52:18 +0100
In article <19970827.160643.20055.5.lobo1@****.com>, John E Pederson
<lobo1@****.COM> writes
>That would seem to be the problem: aside from suppressive fire, that's
>the _only_ reason to bother with it. Pretty much the same thing with the
>Browning Ultra-Power (or the Max-Power, for that matter). <shrug> It
>doesn't bother me too much, but there aren't too many things that seem
>to.

I've owned a Smith and Wesson 4506 and a Glock 21.

I'd prefer the Glock, in an actual firefight (13 rounds in the clip,
instead of the Smith's eight), but in real life any firefight that needs
more than six shots is shading into serious warfare: either weapon is a
good choice for a fight.

Some of my characters use Brownings. Why? That extra point of
concealability. If you empty the clip, change the clip. Others like
Manhunters (More ammo than any other heavy pistol on the market!) and
some swear by a basic Predator. Why the Predator? "It belonged to my
father."

There's something to be said for not letting characters see too many
statistics for firearms :) The lengths Twilight:2000 players went to in
identifying "the best gun" were almost comical, spreadsheets appearing
for one player before he decided what his character would carry...



--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 29
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:21:51 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-27 02:18:47 EDT, you write:

> Why not just buy an SMG? They're about as (il)legal, do more damage, have
> more fire modes, weight, cost, and concealability are about the same.

Because with a machine pistol, I can get away with telling the Star that
it's for personal protection - light caliber rounds, multiple shots to deal
with a multiple attacker situation, and it IS a pistol. If I've got a permit,
the Star's sucking wind. Try pulling that off with an SMG, most of which are
capable of burst-fire and/or Full-Auto modes only.

Wolfstar
Message no. 30
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:54:51 +0100
In article <970827154134_-1268583945@*******.mail.aol.com>, George Metz
<W0lfstar@***.COM> writes
>
> Ummm, WHY is a damage code of 6M more realistic instead of more cheese? You
>are aware of high-calibre round statistics? Well, in case you're not:
>.45 ACP, probably on the low end of the heavy calibre rounds, has a one shot
>stop percentage of 94-96%. This means whoever you shoot at has that
>percentage chance of sitting down and shutting up because of the bullet
>wound. The .45 ACP also has approximately an 88% one shot kill ratio. Same as
>one shot stop, except they lay down in a pine box instead of sitting down and
>shutting up.
> Now, assume that the Ares Predator II is at least a .45 ACP handgun, if not
>more powerful, and re-work the damage stats to printed levels.

Problem is that, doing this, SMGs go to 9M base damage too, and assault
rifles to something like 12S, and everything else scales accordingly...

The Shadowrun system does make heavy pistols too effective, but then in
SR2 they were all but useless. In SR2 they can hurt people.

It comes down to, do you want realism (where automatic weapons and
assault rifles are massively lethal) or playability and character
survival?

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 31
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:40:55 GMT
On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:19:14 EDT, John E Pederson wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:42:07 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:
>
> >In a message dated 97-08-26 13:48:51 EDT, you write:
> >
> >> Well, in my campaign since I lowered Heavy Pistols Damage Code down
> >> to a realstic 6M, some players are now using them.
> >
> > Ummm, WHY is a damage code of 6M more realistic instead of more
> > cheese?
> > Now, assume that the Ares Predator II is at least a .45 ACP handgun,
> > if not more powerful, and re-work the damage stats to printed levels.

SR has screwed up a few facts by using different Power Levels for
different weapon types. Example: why do most SMGs have a power of 6
or 7 when-- by definition-- SMGs use the same calibre ammunition (with
possibly a hotter powder charge) as Medium or Heavy Pistols? Because
of this, we end up with SMG cartridges, Combat Rifle cartridges, and
even Hunting Rifle cartridges that cannot penetrate armor as well as a
Super Ruger Warhawk. But anyone that has played SR already knows this
so I'll end now.

Adjusting damage codes to make them more realistic would be difficult
at this point so you just have to learn to live with it or come up
with your own house rules. You could drop heavy pistols down to 6M or
7M but then your current armour ratings would need to be changed as
well (to prevent everyone from resorting to more lethal weapons). But
you probably already know this, too :)

> Depends on how exactly you do it. There has been some discussion on a
> Medium Pistol to bridge the gap between light and heavy. At this point, I
> could easily consider the Predator (and Predator II) as 9mm or equivalent
> semi-autos, and I'd lump them in with the Medium guns. .45 ACP would
> probably still wind up as heavies, but I doubt the Predator fires that
> big a round. So, I'd line things up like this:
>
> Hold-out
> .22 LR
> Light
> .32, .22

Holdouts are sometimes armed with magnum or .410 shotgun cartridges
due to their generally limited capacity. FWIW, the .22 LR is a more
powerful cartridge than the .22, but not quite as powerful as the .32
ACP.

> Medium
> .38, .40, 9mm, 10mm, etc
> Heavy
> .45, almost any Magnum round, .50 ae

Put the 10mm in with the Heavies and put the .45 in the Medium
category. The 9mm round possesses higher KE than the .45, as does the
.40 S&W. Because of this, they both penetrate armour better too (due
to their smaller cross-sectional area).

Does anyone know if the .50 AE beats out the .454 Casull? I know it
puts the .44 Magnum to shame...



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."
Message no. 32
From: Kim Christiansen <kimc@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 18:10:13 +0100
> From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117"
> Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
...cut some stuff...
> Yeah, but the Savalette... Well, lemme put it this way: burst-fire from a
.44
> magnum pistol should rip up the wrist of anyone but an Ork or Troll. Some
> small humans can't really control that size of round, let alone three at
once.
> People can handle the recoil from three .32s (the Skorpion's original
calibre,
> anyway). Personally I just think the Savalette was a bad idea, unless
you're
> thinking (once again) characters with unnatural strength to use it.
>
> losthalo

But the Salvette does a burst as a COMPLEX action. Allows only 1 burst per
turn. And I agree with earlier sentiments that the force would probably rip
an arm out it's socket.

MPs?... I Love Em! Listen, certain security forces need the lighter round
for the practical use of the weapon. I always encourage my players to
justify their weapons and equipment choices. So sometimes an MP makes ense.
BTW- I like the lower HP damages, seems better balanced.

kimc

"How am I supposed to know, I'm making this up as I go along!"
-famous archeologist and pre-shadow runner from the 1930's
Message no. 33
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:56:08 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-27 21:00:10 EDT, you write:

<< Adjusting damage codes to make them more realistic would be difficult
at this point so you just have to learn to live with it or come up
with your own house rules. You could drop heavy pistols down to 6M or
7M but then your current armour ratings would need to be changed as
well (to prevent everyone from resorting to more lethal weapons). But
you probably already know this, too :)
>>

Funny you should mention armor, as I have been working on a system to make
the armor in shadowrun more realistic.

From the research I have done, and mind you it is limited at this point, the
impression that I get is that most armored vests today will block most of the
pistol rounds, effectively only causing a syinging wound-unless the target is
unfortunete enough to be hit in a soft spot or at close range.

Thoughts?

-Bandit
Message no. 34
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:35:04 EDT
On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:52:18 +0100 "Paul J. Adam"
<shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK> writes:

>I've owned a Smith and Wesson 4506 and a Glock 21.
>
>I'd prefer the Glock, in an actual firefight (13 rounds in the clip,
>instead of the Smith's eight), but in real life any firefight that


I thought Glocks were numbered according to how many rounds were in a
clip?


>needs
>more than six shots is shading into serious warfare: either weapon is
>a
>good choice for a fight.
>
>Some of my characters use Brownings. Why? That extra point of
>concealability. If you empty the clip, change the clip. Others like
>Manhunters (More ammo than any other heavy pistol on the market!) and
>some swear by a basic Predator. Why the Predator? "It belonged to my
>father."


Had forgotten about the concealability. As for the Predator: it's _cheap_
and easily available.



/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /
Message no. 35
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:35:04 EDT
On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:21:51 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 97-08-27 02:18:47 EDT, you write:
>
>> Why not just buy an SMG? They're about as (il)legal, do more damage,
>have
>> more fire modes, weight, cost, and concealability are about the
>same.
>
> Because with a machine pistol, I can get away with telling the Star
>that
>it's for personal protection - light caliber rounds, multiple shots to
>deal
>with a multiple attacker situation, and it IS a pistol. If I've got a
>permit,
>the Star's sucking wind. Try pulling that off with an SMG, most of
>which are
>capable of burst-fire and/or Full-Auto modes only.


Actually, the Star can still take you in with that MP, unless you happen
to be a member of security organisation and can show a special permit
allowing you to carry it (this permit would only be available to
specially registered and licensed security organisations). I'd give you
quotes and page numbers, but my copy of Shadowtech (and all my SR books,
atm) is packed up for when I move into my dorm at college this weekend.


/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /
Message no. 36
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:35:04 EDT
On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:40:55 GMT James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.ca>
writes:

>SR has screwed up a few facts by using different Power Levels for
>different weapon types. Example: why do most SMGs have a power of 6
>or 7 when-- by definition-- SMGs use the same calibre ammunition (with
>possibly a hotter powder charge) as Medium or Heavy Pistols? Because
>of this, we end up with SMG cartridges, Combat Rifle cartridges, and
>even Hunting Rifle cartridges that cannot penetrate armor as well as a
>Super Ruger Warhawk. But anyone that has played SR already knows this
>so I'll end now.


SR's based on a cinematic reality, rather than a _real_ reality. SMG's do
less damage per bullet (despite equivalent or heavier rounds and longer
barrels) than an HP, because you're _expected_ to fire multiple rounds.
Ditto for Assault rifles.



>> Hold-out
>> .22 LR
>> Light
>> .32, .22
>
>Holdouts are sometimes armed with magnum or .410 shotgun cartridges


Yeah, but I thought I'd leave them out as they'd have seriously different
damage ratings from the standard holdouts listed.


>due to their generally limited capacity. FWIW, the .22 LR is a more
>powerful cartridge than the .22, but not quite as powerful as the .32
>ACP.


I thought so originally, but a friend of mine (supposedly has more
experience with guns than I do, but we won't discuss that:) told me the
opposite. Information duly noted.


>> Medium
>> .38, .40, 9mm, 10mm, etc
>> Heavy
>> .45, almost any Magnum round, .50 ae
>
>Put the 10mm in with the Heavies and put the .45 in the Medium
>category. The 9mm round possesses higher KE than the .45, as does the
>.40 S&W. Because of this, they both penetrate armour better too (due
>to their smaller cross-sectional area).


Duly noted. I figured the 10 was a heavy, but the slug wasn't any bigger
than a .40. In reference to .45 ammo, where would .45 ACP fit?


>Does anyone know if the .50 AE beats out the .454 Casull? I know it
>puts the .44 Magnum to shame...


<g> I certainly haven't a clue (and I don't want to hear the ensuing
'agreements' :)



/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /
Message no. 37
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:06:02 GMT
On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:35:04 EDT, John E Pederson wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:52:18 +0100 "Paul J. Adam"
> <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK> writes:
>
> >I've owned a Smith and Wesson 4506 and a Glock 21.
> >
> >I'd prefer the Glock, in an actual firefight (13 rounds in the clip,
> >instead of the Smith's eight), but in real life any firefight that
>
> I thought Glocks were numbered according to how many rounds were in a
> clip?

I'd thwap you for that one but I'm new to the list and I don't wanna
ruffle any feathers :)

This is a simple myth, based on the coincidence that Mr. Gaston
Glock's first successful pistol design just happened to be his 17th
creation (it held 17 rounds in the magazine). The Glock 17L is a
hybrid-- a target shooter's weapon with a longer barrel and a few
other features as well.

To clarify, the Glock 18 is a *fully* automatic (_not_ 3-round burst)
version of the Glock 17 that uses a slightly different frame and slide
assembly (to prevent somebody from converting a Glock 17 to full
autofire). It looks identical to a Glock 17 in all respects except
for a small selector switch at the rear of the slide for autofire (and
the 33 round magazine!). Contrary to the recoil rules in SR, I have
seen pictures of the Glock 18 in action with *six* ejected shell
casings suspended in mid-air while the gun remained straight and level
using a two-handed grip. And there is no gawd awful massive gas
venting barrel modification hanging off the front allowing it to do so
either. Of course, it is being fired by a guy with a gut as big as me
:)

The Glock 19 was a downsized Glock 17, with a capacity of only 15 9mm
rounds. The Glock 20 is a 10mm pistol with a capacity of 15 rounds
while the Glock 21 is chambered for the .45 ACP round (capacity: 13
rounds). The Glock 22 and 23 fires the highly successful S&W .40
round (magazine capacities are 15 and 13 rounds, respectively).

Glock trivia fact: the Glock was the first handgun that was able to
mount an "integral" lasersight. The only thing mounted externally was
the thin pressure pad that activated the beam.

Another Glock trivia fact (well, 99% fact, anyway): the FBI building
in Quantico, Virginia has a cafeteria called the "Hard Glock Cafe".



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."
Message no. 38
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:06:10 GMT
On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:56:08 -0400, M. Sean Martinez wrote:

> In a message dated 97-08-27 21:00:10 EDT, you write:
>
> << Adjusting damage codes to make them more realistic would be difficult
> at this point so you just have to learn to live with it or come up
> with your own house rules. You could drop heavy pistols down to 6M or
> 7M but then your current armour ratings would need to be changed as
> well (to prevent everyone from resorting to more lethal weapons). But
> you probably already know this, too :)
> >>
>
> Funny you should mention armor, as I have been working on a system to make
> the armor in shadowrun more realistic.
>
> >From the research I have done, and mind you it is limited at this point, the
> impression that I get is that most armored vests today will block most of the
> pistol rounds, effectively only causing a syinging wound-unless the target is
> unfortunete enough to be hit in a soft spot or at close range.
>
> Thoughts?

This is true. Body armour was originally designed to defend against
grenade and bomb fragments, as well as aerial artillery-- hence the
term "flak jacket". With the proper titanium trauma plates inserted
in key areas, more powerful cartridges can be stopped.

Making the armour rules more realistic won't have much effect on the
game, however, unless you make changes to the weapon damage codes to
make them more realistic as well. But if you can get armour to work
more realistically (without changing the actual figures), a little RPG
supplement called "Guns!Guns!Guns!" will allow you to make realistic
weapons as well (rules to convert 3G3 stats to Shadowrun are available
on Gurth's page).

Body armour is always one "tech level" behind what it is designed to
defend against. When body armour catches up, somebody develops a new
way of breaching it. Civilian DS ammo already exists for a few
calibres (12G shotgun and 7.62mm NATO). C'est la vie...

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."
Message no. 39
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:06:05 GMT
On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:42:07 -0400, George Metz wrote:

> In a message dated 97-08-26 13:48:51 EDT, you write:
>
> > Well, in my campaign since I lowered Heavy Pistols Damage Code down to a
> > realstic 6M, some players are now using them.
>
> Ummm, WHY is a damage code of 6M more realistic instead of more cheese? You
> are aware of high-calibre round statistics? Well, in case you're not:
> .45 ACP, probably on the low end of the heavy calibre rounds, has a one shot
> stop percentage of 94-96%. This means whoever you shoot at has that
> percentage chance of sitting down and shutting up because of the bullet
> wound.

Actually, the .45 one-shot stop percentage is closer to 64-75%,
according to the US Dept. of Justice. Earlier "tests" that gave the
90+% figure were proven to be flawed in that they failed to take
certain things into account.

It is still the best US handgun cartridge in service when limited to
military "hardball" ammunition, however, just because it has more than
enough penetration and can make the biggest hole.

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."
Message no. 40
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:06:03 GMT
On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:35:04 EDT, John E Pederson wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:40:55 GMT James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.ca>
> writes:
>
> >SR has screwed up a few facts by using different Power Levels for
> >different weapon types. Example: why do most SMGs have a power of 6
> >or 7 when-- by definition-- SMGs use the same calibre ammunition (with
> >possibly a hotter powder charge) as Medium or Heavy Pistols? Because
> >of this, we end up with SMG cartridges, Combat Rifle cartridges, and
> >even Hunting Rifle cartridges that cannot penetrate armor as well as a
> >Super Ruger Warhawk. But anyone that has played SR already knows this
> >so I'll end now.
>
> SR's based on a cinematic reality, rather than a _real_ reality. SMG's do
> less damage per bullet (despite equivalent or heavier rounds and longer
> barrels) than an HP, because you're _expected_ to fire multiple rounds.
> Ditto for Assault rifles.

I was aware of that :) If I'm in the mood for cinematic combat, I
play Shadowrun or slap a John Woo flick into the VCR. If I want to
play an RPG and learn about the intricacies of orbital characteristics
of gas giants, I play Traveller. If I want to play something truly
dark and depressing (you think SR is bad) I play WW's Wraith :)

> >due to their generally limited capacity. FWIW, the .22 LR is a more
> >powerful cartridge than the .22, but not quite as powerful as the .32
> >ACP.
>
> I thought so originally, but a friend of mine (supposedly has more
> experience with guns than I do, but we won't discuss that:) told me the
> opposite. Information duly noted.

The .22LR's bullet mass is slightly larger that the .22 but the powder
charge propelling it is almost double. Perhaps you are thinking about
the .223 (aka: 5.56 NATO used in the M-16) or the .221 Fireball (used
in God-knows-what). No matter :)

> >> Medium
> >> .38, .40, 9mm, 10mm, etc
> >> Heavy
> >> .45, almost any Magnum round, .50 ae
> >
> >Put the 10mm in with the Heavies and put the .45 in the Medium
> >category. The 9mm round possesses higher KE than the .45, as does the
> >.40 S&W. Because of this, they both penetrate armour better too (due
> >to their smaller cross-sectional area).
>
> Duly noted. I figured the 10 was a heavy, but the slug wasn't any bigger
> than a .40.

The FBI originally brought the 10mm into existence because they wanted
something more powerful than the popular 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge
(not to be confused with the much weaker 9x17mm round used in far
fewer weapons). It turned out to be too hot (half way between a .357
and .41 magnum) so they reduced the propellent charge to reduce the
muzzle energy. The .40 uses a *nearly* identical calibre but in a
shorter brass casing, allowing it to be used in current 9mm handguns
with only slight modification (magazine, barrel, and recoil spring).
This is why the .40 S&W is so popular today.

> In reference to .45 ammo, where would .45 ACP fit?

The .45 *is* the .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol), unless you are
thinking about the Wild West (.45 Colt, circa 1873 :)

> >Does anyone know if the .50 AE beats out the .454 Casull? I know it
> >puts the .44 Magnum to shame...
>
> <g> I certainly haven't a clue (and I don't want to hear the ensuing
> 'agreements' :)

Just so you know what I'm talking about, the .454 Casull was the
5-round mega revolver that Detective Matthew Psykes (sp?) used to
bring down a drugged out alien "Newcomer" in the original theatrical
release of "Alien Nation".

Homer go sleepy now...

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."
Message no. 41
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:52:38 +0000
On 27 Aug 97 at 16:19, John E Pederson wrote:


> Depends on how exactly you do it. There has been some discussion on
> a Medium Pistol to bridge the gap between light and heavy. At this
> point, I could easily consider the Predator (and Predator II) as 9mm
> or equivalent semi-autos, and I'd lump them in with the Medium guns.
> .45 ACP would probably still wind up as heavies, but I doubt the
> Predator fires that big a round. So, I'd line things up like this:
>
> Hold-out
> .22 LR
>
> Light
> .32, .22
>
> Medium
> .38, .40, 9mm, 10mm, etc
>
> Heavy
> .45, almost any Magnum round, .50 ae

I break out current cartridges slightly differently, most notably by
the creation of an additional class of Super Heavy Pistol and the
belive that Hold Out is more a size and range discription. I say this
because there are a number of small deringers chambered for major
caliber cartiridges (.38, 9mm, .45 ACP, 45-70) currently sold in the
USA. Granted they are all "hand full " to shoot but they exist.

Light: .22 Rimfire, .22WM, .25 ACP

Medium: .380, .38, 7.65

Heavy: .357, .41, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .45 ACP

Super Heavy:.44 Magnum, .454 Casull, .45-70, .50AE and .500 Maximum

9mm, .10mm .40SW and .41AE IMHO straddle the line between Medium and
Heavy. A case can be made for either classification depending how the
cartridge is loaded.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 42
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:08:26 +1000
Canthros wrote:

> <<One of my characters, an Elven Hitwoman, uses a Browning
Ultra-Power
> and a Black Scorpion as weapons of choice, along with a Narcoject
pistol.
> Most people look at her strange(and most players look at ME
strange) for
> her choice of weapons. They argue with her that she should choose
better
> weapons, etc. She probably should. Wanna know why she doesn't?
Character
> quirk.
> That's the best reason I can think of to carry an illogical weapons
> loadout.>>
>
>
> That would seem to be the problem: aside from suppressive fire,
that's
> the _only_ reason to bother with it. Pretty much the same thing
with the
> Browning Ultra-Power (or the Max-Power, for that matter). <shrug>
It
> doesn't bother me too much, but there aren't too many things that
seem
> to.

I use some house rules I found on the web somewhere (I think). The
TN to avoid being shot is just a base TN, irrelevant of the power
level of the weapon (for combat pool anyway). The advantage of
machine pistols (and all automatic weapons) with these rules is that
they are harder to dodge because they throw more bullets into the
air.

NightRain.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
Message no. 43
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:43:03 EDT
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:06:02 GMT James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.ca>
writes:

>> I thought Glocks were numbered according to how many rounds were in a
>> clip?
>
>I'd thwap you for that one but I'm new to the list and I don't wanna
>ruffle any feathers :)


Because I asked a (legitimate, if a bit stupid) question? I thought they
were numbered that way.



/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /
Message no. 44
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:43:03 EDT
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:06:03 GMT James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.ca>
writes:

>> I thought so originally, but a friend of mine (supposedly has more
>> experience with guns than I do, but we won't discuss that:) told me
>the
>> opposite. Information duly noted.
>
>The .22LR's bullet mass is slightly larger that the .22 but the powder
>charge propelling it is almost double. Perhaps you are thinking about
>the .223 (aka: 5.56 NATO used in the M-16) or the .221 Fireball (used
>in God-knows-what). No matter :)


I thought the 5.56 was an assault rifle round (or is that what you're
saying?) BTW, now you've got me confused: first you say that .22 LR is a
more powerful round than a standard .22. Now, you seem to be repeating
that, even though I agreed with you:) and you're wording this time around
isn't as ... clear.



>> In reference to .45 ammo, where would .45 ACP fit?
>
>The .45 *is* the .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol), unless you are
>thinking about the Wild West (.45 Colt, circa 1873 :)


I did not know that. I guess you learn something new every day, huh?


>> >Does anyone know if the .50 AE beats out the .454 Casull? I know
>it
>> >puts the .44 Magnum to shame...
>>
>> <g> I certainly haven't a clue (and I don't want to hear the ensuing
>> 'agreements' :)
>
>Just so you know what I'm talking about, the .454 Casull was the
>5-round mega revolver that Detective Matthew Psykes (sp?) used to
>bring down a drugged out alien "Newcomer" in the original theatrical
>release of "Alien Nation".


Didn't see the movie, there was some discussion on the .454 Casull a
while back (earlier this month, I think), I was referring to the fact
that I really have no idea how .50 ae compares to .454 Casull.


/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /
Message no. 45
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:12:37 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-28 00:51:33 EDT, you write:

<< Ummm, WHY is a damage code of 6M more realistic instead of more cheese?
You
are aware of high-calibre round statistics? Well, in case you're not:
.45 ACP, probably on the low end of the heavy calibre rounds, has a one shot
stop percentage of 94-96%. This means whoever you shoot at has that
percentage chance of sitting down and shutting up because of the bullet
wound. The .45 ACP also has approximately an 88% one shot kill ratio. Same
as
one shot stop, except they lay down in a pine box instead of sitting down
and
shutting up.
Now, assume that the Ares Predator II is at least a .45 ACP handgun, if not
more powerful, and re-work the damage stats to printed levels.
>>

Simply because in my game I consider most heavy pistols to be 9mm. It works
for me. That and the idea of Firepower ammo idea is so much poop that it is
not funny, which was the orginal reason I lowered the damage code.

Also are you aware that class IIIA body armor will stop pistol rounds
including the .45 ACP? To me an armored jacket would be class IIIA., since
besides ceramic armour it has the highest rating. Lowering the Damage code to
6M is more realistic in the repect that it has a small chance of doing damage
to the person wearing an armored jacket.

-Bandit
Message no. 46
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:36:15 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-28 09:14:58 EDT, you write:

<< Making the armour rules more realistic won't have much effect on the
game, however, unless you make changes to the weapon damage codes to
make them more realistic as well. But if you can get armour to work
more realistically (without changing the actual figures), a little RPG
supplement called "Guns!Guns!Guns!" will allow you to make realistic
weapons as well (rules to convert 3G3 stats to Shadowrun are available
on Gurth's page).
>>

I am quickly begining to realize that in an attempt to make shadowrun combat
more realistic, I would have to rewriite most of the system. A task which I
just do not want to do.

As it stands I have already changed the burst fire system to a more of a Hit
and Miss system as opposed to a Hit or Miss. (I got the idea form someone's
else's rules) Seems to work out nicely at times but there are some bugs in it
for now.

-Bandit
Message no. 47
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:46:12 -0600
Quoth M. Sean Martinez:
>
> In a message dated 97-08-28 09:14:58 EDT, you write:
>
> << Making the armour rules more realistic won't have much effect on the
> game, however, unless you make changes to the weapon damage codes to
> make them more realistic as well. But if you can get armour to work
> more realistically (without changing the actual figures), a little RPG
> supplement called "Guns!Guns!Guns!" will allow you to make realistic
> weapons as well (rules to convert 3G3 stats to Shadowrun are available
> on Gurth's page).
> >>
>
> I am quickly begining to realize that in an attempt to make shadowrun combat
> more realistic, I would have to rewriite most of the system. A task which I
> just do not want to do.

This is so true. We've tried several things in the past to try to make
the combat system match more closely with our style of play and concept
of lethality in the game. Some have been successful, but making it work
in a way that we thought would work would require a *lot* of rewriting
of not only the combat system but of the skills, damage, weapons, armor,
you name it. We've settled on just a couple house rules and now quite
enjoy the system for it's simplicity.

--
| Any resemblance between the above and my own
Mike Loseke | views is non-deterministic. The question of
mike@*******.com | the existence of views in the absence of anyone
| to hold them is left as an exercise to the reader.
Message no. 48
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:21:00 GMT
on 26.08.97 levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG wrote:

l> Machine Pistols: (why?)
l>
l> Why would anyone in their logical minds use a machine pistol? They do the
l> same basic damage as a Heavy pistol, with 5 times as much recoil, and
l> comprable concealability. Anyone have any situation where a Scorpion is
l> superior to a Predator-II?

Try 'style'. The other is the shock-factor. A semi-auto pistol is scary,
but something firing BF/FA sound a lot more dangerous.

Tobias
Message no. 49
From: MIMI NINAPENDA BUNDUKI SANA <downsa@******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:11:03 EST
on 26.08.97 levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG wrote:

l> Machine Pistols: (why?)
l>
l> Why would anyone in their logical minds use a machine pistol? They do the
l> same basic damage as a Heavy pistol, with 5 times as much recoil, and
l> comprable concealability. Anyone have any situation where a Scorpion is
l> superior to a Predator-II?

well in a game sense, it's not a bright move. but realistically, if i had to
arm someone who hasn't fired a gun before, i'd rather arm them with a
something like a Tek-9, or machine pistol, than say a desert eagle .50
caliber. why? because the recoil and experience with a gun like a desert
eagle or any heavy pistol will almost insure that they won't hit a thing.
however, i have a 22 rifle in a bull-pup stock. a simple modification can make
it full auto, very little recoil and fairly light. sure they might not be a
sharp shooter, but all they would have to do is hold down the trigger and point
it in my general direction. with a 50 round clip, i would definetly be afraid
of that person!! sure its not a machine pistol, but the idea of quick firing
gun in the hands of an inexperienced person is VERY SCARY to me :)

silver leaf
Message no. 50
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:25:10 +0100
In article <19970827.223315.8327.2.lobo1@****.com>, John E Pederson
<lobo1@****.COM> writes
>On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:52:18 +0100 "Paul J. Adam"
><shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK> writes:
>
>>I've owned a Smith and Wesson 4506 and a Glock 21.
>>
>>I'd prefer the Glock, in an actual firefight (13 rounds in the clip,
>>instead of the Smith's eight), but in real life any firefight that
>
>
>I thought Glocks were numbered according to how many rounds were in a
>clip?

Nope. Coincidence that the Glock 17 (9mm) has a 17-round magazine as
standard.

The Glock 18 is a full-auto variant.

Glock 19 - compact 9mm, 15-shot magazine.

Glock 20 - 10mm Auto, 15-round magazine.

Glock 21 - .45ACP, 13-round mag.

Glock 22 - .40S&W, 15-round magazine.

Glock 23 - Small-frame .40S&W, 12-round mag.

Glock 24 - long-slide long-barreled .40S&W, 15-round mag.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 51
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:51:00 GMT
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:43:03 EDT, John E Pederson wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:06:03 GMT James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.ca>
> writes:
>
> >> I thought so originally, but a friend of mine (supposedly has more
> >> experience with guns than I do, but we won't discuss that:) told me
> >the
> >> opposite. Information duly noted.
> >
> >The .22LR's bullet mass is slightly larger that the .22 but the powder
> >charge propelling it is almost double. Perhaps you are thinking about
> >the .223 (aka: 5.56 NATO used in the M-16) or the .221 Fireball (used
> >in God-knows-what). No matter :)
>
> I thought the 5.56 was an assault rifle round (or is that what you're
> saying?) BTW, now you've got me confused: first you say that .22 LR is a
> more powerful round than a standard .22. Now, you seem to be repeating
> that, even though I agreed with you:) and you're wording this time around
> isn't as ... clear.

Sorry. Forget all that stuff about the 5.56 and .221 Fireball (some
people think that a 9mm pistol round packs more of a wallop than a
5.56mm assault rifle round just because the 9mm has a larger calibre.
Further confusion sometimes results between certain pistol and rifle
calibres (eg: .44 Magnum has much less energy than the .44 Remington
Magnum).

To clarify, the .22LR is a more powerful cartridge than the .22. It
is not quite as powerful as the .32 (calibres based on your original
post).

I appologize again for any confusion. After all, Shadowrun doesn't
even need this kind of detail because the combat system isn't refined
enough to handle all of the tiny details.

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."
Message no. 52
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:50:58 GMT
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:43:03 EDT, John E Pederson wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:06:02 GMT James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.ca>
> writes:
>
> >> I thought Glocks were numbered according to how many rounds were in a
> >> clip?
> >
> >I'd thwap you for that one but I'm new to the list and I don't wanna
> >ruffle any feathers :)
>
> Because I asked a (legitimate, if a bit stupid) question? I thought they
> were numbered that way.

Sorry... didn't mean to offend. Next time I'll use more smilies :)

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."
Message no. 53
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:50:59 GMT
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:52:38 +0000, David Hinkley wrote:

> Medium: .380, .38, 7.65
>
> Heavy: .357, .41, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .45 ACP
>
> 9mm, .10mm .40SW and .41AE IMHO straddle the line between Medium and
> Heavy. A case can be made for either classification depending how the
> cartridge is loaded.

There are plenty of arguments between which is the better cartridge--
the 9mmP or the .45 ACP-- so I won't start another one. As for the
10m, it definitely belongs in the Heavy Pistol category, with the
lightest 10mm loads hovering just below the more powerful .357 loads.

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."
Message no. 54
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:55:31 +0000
> > I am quickly begining to realize that in an attempt to make shadowrun combat
> > more realistic, I would have to rewriite most of the system. A task which I
> > just do not want to do.
>
> This is so true. We've tried several things in the past to try to make
> the combat system match more closely with our style of play and concept
> of lethality in the game. Some have been successful, but making it work
> in a way that we thought would work would require a *lot* of rewriting
> of not only the combat system but of the skills, damage, weapons, armor,
> you name it. We've settled on just a couple house rules and now quite
> enjoy the system for it's simplicity.

A simple change I thought of just now:

When firing bursts one bullet hits per success, when firing full
auto, two, counting towards damage. (The difference between FA and BF
is because you roll 2* skill dice with BF. (Balancing it out)).

(So firing FA, six rounds, at player A with two successes results in
4 bullets counting towards damage, giving him (base 8+4/M+1) damage
to resist with two successes to dodge. ).

Advantage: Takes into account that firing lots of bullets makes it
very unlikely to hit with many of them. Extremely simple
modification.

Disadvantage: Should be obvious, besides that it's too much of a
penatly with some recoil.
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 55
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 03:37:50 +0100
In article <19970828.094244.16823.3.lobo1@****.com>, John E Pederson
<lobo1@****.COM> rambled on endlessly about Machine Pistols
>Didn't see the movie, there was some discussion on the .454 Casull a
>while back (earlier this month, I think), I was referring to the fact
>that I really have no idea how .50 ae compares to .454 Casull.

Quick comparison

.50AE 325gram slug Velocity/Energy
Muz: 1400/1414 50yds: 1209/1055 100yds: 1075/832

.454 290gram slug Velocity/Energy
Muz: 1720/1700 50yds: 1560/1475 100yds: 1480/1225

Comparison on Factory load ammunition by Lt.Col Jack Lewis (editor - Gun
World) & Ray Ordorica (Editor Handguns)

Hope that helps a little in showing the differences between the two
weapons. The 454 is a damn sight more dangerous, but a lot less
manageable (recoil is v.heavy) It's throwing a lighter round in general
from factory ammo, but the consequent FPE (energy/foot pounds)is much
higher.


--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk - Shadowtk Newbies Guide & Edgerunners Datastore
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims - Alternative UK Sourcebook (U/C)
Message no. 56
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:28:33 +0000
On 28 Aug 97 at 9:43, John E Pederson wrote:


> I thought the 5.56 was an assault rifle round (or is that what
> you're saying?) BTW, now you've got me confused: first you say that
> .22 LR is a more powerful round than a standard .22. Now, you seem
> to be repeating that, even though I agreed with you:) and you're
> wording this time around isn't as ... clear.

You are correct, 5.56mm NATO ( AKA .223 Remington) is an assault
rifle round. Futher it is a much more powerful then any of the .22
rimfire rounds. There are a number of different .22 rimfire cartidges
that are commonly avalible. From weakest to strongest they are .22 BB
(AKA .22 BB Cap)[19 grain bullet at about 750 fps], .22 Short [29
grain bullet at about 925 fps], .22 Long [29 grain bullet at about
1125 fps], .22 Long Rifle (AKA .22LR) [40 grain bullet at about 1160
fps] and the .22 Winchester Magnum (AKA .22 Winchester Rim Fire) [45
grain bullet at 1170 fps]. The Short and BB Cap ar most commonly used
in shootin galleries. It is most rifles and pistols chambered for
.22LR can fire the weaker cartridges with redused performance.

If this is not confussing enough there is the 5.5mm Velo Dog (AKA .22
Center Fire) [ 45 grain bullet at about 750 fps] that a large quanity
of cheap pocket pistols were chambered for prior to WW II.

Other then the Velo Dog the rest of the common centerfire cartridges
utilizing bullets with a nominal .22 diamiter are much more powerfull
then the .22 rimfires. Some of the most common: .22 Hornet [45 grain
bullet at 2650 fps], .222 Remington Magnum [55 grain bullet at 3275
fps] and .223 Remington (AKA 5.56 NATO) [55 grain bullet at 3250
fps]. Thes are all Rifle cartridges. Of course, even this is not a
difinate statment as there are several large single shot pistols,
the Thompson Center Contender is one, that are chambered for it.

I hope this was more helpful then confusing.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 57
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:29:00 GMT
on 27.08.97 shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK wrote:

[SMGs need more punch]
s>
s> Problem is that, doing this, SMGs go to 9M base damage too, and assault
s> rifles to something like 12S, and everything else scales accordingly...
s>
s> The Shadowrun system does make heavy pistols too effective, but then in
s> SR2 they were all but useless. In SR2 they can hurt people.
s>
s> It comes down to, do you want realism (where automatic weapons and
s> assault rifles are massively lethal) or playability and character
s> survival?

There is this nice horror-system called Cult, im which certain revolvers
have killings at 9+, which means that you roll a D20 and with 9 or more,
your target is dead. A normal .45ACP has something like 12+. If the
shooter is pretty good (and has a laser sight), he'll pretty soon get +10
to most of his shots, meaning a kill nomatter what. Well, what can I say?
If your normal (i.e. non-military) Cult char gets into a firefight with
people who know what they're doing, he's dead. Period. Try that in SR and
everyone is only concerned about their initative, as to shoot first is
what keeps you alive. Not that funny in a pretty weapon-based system.


Tobias
Message no. 58
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:52:00 GMT
on 27.08.97 lobo1@****.COM wrote:

l> I thought Glocks were numbered according to how many rounds were in a
l> clip?

Nope.


l> >Some of my characters use Brownings. Why? That extra point of
l> >concealability. If you empty the clip, change the clip. Others like
l> >Manhunters (More ammo than any other heavy pistol on the market!) and
l> >some swear by a basic Predator. Why the Predator? "It belonged to my
l> >father."
l>
l>
l> Had forgotten about the concealability. As for the Predator: it's _cheap_
l> and easily available.

And is so damn wide spread, nobody will ever be able to track one down
(Take a H&K MP7z Urban Combat to Seattle and use it. It won't take that
long until the Star figures out that there are only three of this in their
database.)

Tobias
Message no. 59
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:10:40 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-27 21:08:51 EDT, you write:

> Hold-out
> .22 LR
> Light
> .32, .22

Don't forget .25 guns...

> Medium
> .38, .40, 9mm, 10mm, etc

Ummm, err, 10mm passes the phonebook test(put 5 Manhattan phonebooks back to
back and see if the round will go through). I'd classify 10mm as heavy, since
it's basically a .40 S&W with more powder - you know, so the round does
something. =)

> Heavy
> .45, almost any Magnum round, .50 ae
>
> But, I won't claim to be an expert on ballistics, and I don't remember
> what the firearm experts said the last time this came up.

Sound's good, but switch 10mm over to Heavy. (Personally, I gave it a weapons
code of 8M, but that's because it's slightly weaker than a .45 ACP.)

Wolfstar
Message no. 60
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:11:06 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-28 10:37:01 EDT, you write:

> I am quickly begining to realize that in an attempt to make shadowrun
combat
> more realistic, I would have to rewriite most of the system. A task which
I
> just do not want to do.

One quick question. Why would you want to? Seriously, look at the majority
of other games out there at the moment and point one out that is as realistic
as Shadowrun in the combat department, yet doesn't bog down from overly
complicated rules. It pretty much doesn't exist. SR combat is, simply put,
one of the best systems out there. I offer up that very rarely do you
encounter a system where an unarmored PC can die from a single gunshot wound
as a major point.

> As it stands I have already changed the burst fire system to a more of a
Hit
> and Miss system as opposed to a Hit or Miss. (I got the idea form
someone's
> else's rules) Seems to work out nicely at times but there are some bugs in
it
> for now.

Sounds reasonable, it's one of the few things that does seem to be lacking.

Wolfstar
Message no. 61
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:10:47 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-28 00:55:29 EDT, you write:

> That would seem to be the problem: aside from suppressive fire, that's
> the _only_ reason to bother with it. Pretty much the same thing with the
> Browning Ultra-Power (or the Max-Power, for that matter). <shrug> It
> doesn't bother me too much, but there aren't too many things that seem
> to.

Actually, it's got a decent conceal, not bad ammo, and with Smartlink II
installed and weapon customization, it's a pretty decent gun.

> >> Canthros (who needs guns?)
> >
> > Those of us who can't turn into a big, furry beast, silly! =)
>
>
> Actually, I was referring to magic:) The right spell's as good as a gun,
> doesn't run out of ammo, and can tons more subtle:) But I don't want to
> start a magic vs. guns debate, both have their place, after all (the
> gun's usually faster, for instance:).

I can't see there being that much of a debate over guns vs. magic. Sure,
magic's more subtle, has a wider range of effects, can effect more at once,
and doesn't (usually =) ) require a silencer. And guns are a wee bit quicker,
less karma intensive, and don't cause drain. Everything balances out in the
wash, in the end.

Wolfstar
Message no. 62
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:10:28 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-27 13:45:02 EDT, you write:

> If you're going for style, I think a Savlette guardian is much more tres
> chic. You won't fire as many rounds, but you'll pretty much get the same
> effect. Also, if you run into a room firing a machine pistol into the air
> you'll look more like a trigger-happy Middle-Eastern terrorist. Not very
> professional. But I understand some people are going for that image.

Okay, look at it from this angle. You see schmuck numbers 1 and 2 run in
through the door. Number 1 is holding a Black Scorpion. Number 2 is holding
an Ares Predator. Neither looks like they know how to use a gun well at all.
Which are you going to worry more about? Me, I'd worry about Number 1. He's
got more ammo and a better fire spread, so he's more likely to hit
me.(Theoretically, he'd have less recoil from the lighter rounds, too.) Now,
extrapolate that to someone who DOES know what they're doing with a gun,
packing specialized ammunition. Peace through the threat of force.

Wolfstar
Message no. 63
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Machine Pistols
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 20:16:07 GMT
On Mon, 1 Sep 1997 06:11:06 -0400, George Metz wrote:

> One quick question. Why would you want to? Seriously, look at the majority
> of other games out there at the moment and point one out that is as realistic
> as Shadowrun in the combat department, yet doesn't bog down from overly
> complicated rules. It pretty much doesn't exist. SR combat is, simply put,
> one of the best systems out there. I offer up that very rarely do you
> encounter a system where an unarmored PC can die from a single gunshot wound
> as a major point.

I can think of a few. "Aliens" and "Living Steel" use a simplified
version of Leading Edge Games' "Phoenix Command" while "The Babylon
Project" uses a simplified version of Chameleon Eclectic's own
"Millennium's End". All of these games tend to use relatively simple
rules /during/ combat to determine wound level and consciousness
level, while more advanced injury & recovery rules are used only after
the combat is over (thereby not bogging down the flow of combat).

Shadowrun's combat system isn't terribly fast, either. Most of our
combats involving five PCs, a couple of friendly NPCs, and a dozen
hostiles frequently takes at least an hour to complete (and often
takes more than that).

As for realism, I have difficulty getting past the fact that a Super
Ruger Warhawk can out penetrate a Remington 950 (the most powerful
sporting rifle included in the game). This is simply a joke. Some
people say it is for play balance. Play balance belongs in the
character generation system, not in the combat system. I could
nitpick other Shadowrun "non-realisms" but I am not interested in
belittling a game that I still enjoy playing, despite all of the flaws
that I perceive in it.

There are a number of issues involving Shadowrun combat that I would
like to see rules included but the design of the current system in the
main rulebook makes it very difficult to change without needing to
rewrite every module and supplement that came after it.

The argument between realism and fast playability is an old one with
no winner. It is a personal decision between players and referees and
both have their agueable advantages. A realistic system better models
Real Life(tm) so that the players can perform tasks confident that the
physics of the game system will follow suit with Real World physics
(one can also "learn" from such a game if it accurately depicts Real
Life(tm). Playable games, OTOH, stress role-playing over roll-playing
(note the spelling). These games also stress problem solving over
going in guns-a-blazing. The biggest screw up is a game that is
combat intensive that *doesn't* make an effort to use realistic combat
rules.

James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
the grace to accept the things I cannot,
and a great big bag of money."

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Machine Pistols, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!