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Message no. 1
From: Bona na Croin <MHILLIARD@****.ALBION.EDU>
Subject: Mage bias and nobody-likes-me-I'm-a-sammie...
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 23:57:24 -0500
I hadn't noticed any bias, but maybe it's not as obvious from the inside.
I've nothing against street pizza when they're played well, but usually
they're played as meat appendages to a BFG (that's Big you-know-what Gun
BTW). When I play one, I try to bring some originality to the role. My
last one was a drug addict, but that one was in Cyberpunk 2020 where they
have some really boffo drugs. And one of my current SR characters is a
sammie-she's a clone created and controlled by a powerful megacorp, but
she doesn't know it. The other (in a different campaign) is a go-ganger
whop doesn't know she's an adept.

Hey, ya'know, this is the first time I've posted since I unveiled the
Sturgeon(tm). Hi folks! Miss me?

"Yes, but our aim's improving."

=}
Ffelann the Undisciplined
list.member.ticklish
Message no. 2
From: THEY ONLY WIN IF WE LET THEM <MKNABUSCH@****.ALBION.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mage bias and nobody-likes-me-I'm-a-sammie...
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 00:11:00 -0500
Come, now. Admittedly most people limit their abilities for role-playing
when they choose the Samurai, this is not always the case.
For example, I'm currently gaming with someone using the straight Sammie
archtype (first time in shadowrun system). He's playing the smart but
reserved tactiurn sammie. Which makes for great contrast to my I-think-
I-know-everything mage/elf. Moreso today when we went to see a LoneStar
Operative. I asked him if he had a permit for the heat he carried, and
got the expected answer...nope. So I trot up to the door and ring the bell.
I forgot two small but important things. First, that my character lives in
his van...ie..I'm dirty and am not exactly fragrant to the nose. Second,
I didn't have the call sign/password. After realising this, I make motions
to the Sammie to come quickly. He strolls over and proceeds to look at the
sky when the Operative comes to the door.
*ugh* Its great to role-play, even when I'm digging my own grave.

Of course the worse joke is that the mage has more guns than the sammie.
(He's got a Sandler TMP and a Mossberg CMBT-Shotgun...the sammie has an
Uzi III). *sigh* Life _is_ strange.

Michael
aka Harlequin
aka Firefly (the embarresed Elven Combat Mage/Sniper...don't ask)
Message no. 3
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Mage bias and nobody-likes-me-I'm-a-sammie...
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 00:19:48 -0500
>Come, now. Admittedly most people limit their abilities for role-playing
>when they choose the Samurai, this is not always the case.

Of course it's not the case! True roleplayers >can< play anything. Is it
harder to roleplay a samurai than a mage? Hell, no! I can't see any way
that roleplaying a samurai would be any harder than roleplaying a mage or
even be more limited than roleplaying a mage. The group I run with now is
chock full o' mages. Can they roleplay? Some, yes. But roleplaying is a
player, not a character trait. In game mechanics it's a lot harder to PLAY
a mage, simply because of the karma allocating and spell work and initiation
procedures. When you run a samurai, you've got 'ware bills to take your
mind off of roleplaying, but that's it. OK, there's ammo costs and other
things, but overall you can spend more time creating a character and not an
archetype when you run a samurai. So if anything, it's EASIER to roleplay a
samurai. The best _character_ I have is a samurai (check out a story I
wrote on him on Paolo's page if you haven't already). And so far I haven't
heard so much as one reply saying ">I< have and do play a samurai as a main
character." Looks like the bias is showing itself. All I've heard since I
started playing S-run is how weak SS's were compared to phys ads. "Why" I
asked? "Because with like 600 karma... a phys ad'll kill a samurai!"
Uh-huh. Yep he sure would. Now give that samurai 600 karma. Neat little
picture huh? (a vision of a human samurai with all 9 stats (pre-cyber) and
enough gunnery skill to kill Juggernauts with a hold out pistol, enough
stealth to hide in shadows in a desert at high noon, and enough athletics to
outrun a Dynamit...ok, it's impossible to kill a Juggernaut with a hold out
because they are treated as having hardened armor, but you get my point,
right?) Samurai's just aren't as weak as people seem to think they are.
Try one...you'll like 'em. <G>

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
"The last of the Mohi...errr...Street Samurai"
Message no. 4
From: THEY ONLY WIN IF WE LET THEM <MKNABUSCH@****.ALBION.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mage bias and nobody-likes-me-I'm-a-sammie...
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:17:20 -0500
>Samurai's just aren't as weak as people seem to think they are.
>Try one...you'll like 'em. <G>

Agreed. This is only my third magical character. My second character
in the game is an Elven Samurai (female..natch.). She's proved you
don't have to fit the stereotype (even though she is the Archtype).
I've had more fun with her, than any other character...exempting
Hard-to-Catch and Harlequin. She happens to be a fun loving, wise ass
that holds her ideals above most of the party. The only times she
really gets seriously mean is when someone shows their anti-metahuman bias.
*grin* Funniest thing that I ever saw was one samurai make a comment about
her ancestry when he thought she was out of hearing. He wondered why he had
a grenade dropped down his pants (no, it wasn't live...the pin was still in it,
but he doesn't make those remarks anymore...*GRIN*...then again, neither run
with eachother anymore either). But I agree, sam's aren't as bad as people make
them out to be. There are ways to enjoy each character, each has its merits
and flaws.

Michael
aka Harlequin

"No sir, I had no idea that those gas grenades were filled with nitrosoxide."
Message no. 5
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Mage bias and nobody-likes-me-I'm-a-sammie...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 00:39:02 -0500
>Agreed. This is only my third magical character. My second character
>in the game is an Elven Samurai (female..natch.). She's proved you
>don't have to fit the stereotype (even though she is the Archtype).
>I've had more fun with her, than any other character...exempting
>Hard-to-Catch and Harlequin. She happens to be a fun loving, wise ass
>that holds her ideals above most of the party. The only times she
>really gets seriously mean is when someone shows their anti-metahuman bias.
>*grin* Funniest thing that I ever saw was one samurai make a comment about
>her ancestry when he thought she was out of hearing. He wondered why he had
>a grenade dropped down his pants (no, it wasn't live...the pin was still in it,
>but he doesn't make those remarks anymore...*GRIN*...then again, neither run
>with eachother anymore either). But I agree, sam's aren't as bad as people
make
>them out to be. There are ways to enjoy each character, each has its merits
>and flaws.


(Has now found a third Mohican...err...Street Samurai. Is pretty impressed
at the turnout so far)

The key seems to be people SAYING that Street Samurai can't be roleplayed.
(I know you're with me on this Michael...I just want to make another point)
While mages are the pinnacle of roleplaying "because they are effectively
limitless in power and advancement." Roleplaying = power??? Ya know...I
always thought that power = munchkin. And munchkins don't have a clue about
roleplaying, right? Archetype = roleplaying??? Nope...don't see that one
either. PLAYer = rolePLAYing?? Now there's a concept...face it, it's not
the archetype you play it's how you play it.

(decides to illustrate a bit farther using the precipice that SS's are
always Wolverine types...god I hate Marvel comics...and applying the same
outlook to mages) Let's talk about mages... Mages are very powerful, fairly
unlimited people in the Shadowrun game. Of course, the name of the game is
still Shadowrun, right? About Shadowrunning, correct? Now, I really can't
see any mage of initiate rank level 3 or better wanting to risk his learning
so Renraku can know what Mitsuhama has been working on. He'd be more than
happy to sit in his medicine lodge/library/wherever and study more about his
art. Were it called Sit-in-my-room-and-study-Run, now there'd be a game for
mages. Unlimited power and the pursuit of nothing less than just that.

How's the magical majority out there feel about that? Sucks to see it the
way it WOULD be, huh? Ah well, just wanted you to see what the "Sammies are
this way" argument looks like when it's applied to the beloved mage. What
is the flaw here? No roleplaying. How to solve it? ROLEPLAY!!!!!!

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
(wondering if he made a point yet...)
Message no. 6
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Mage bias and nobody-likes-me-I'm-a-sammie...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:39:45 +1000
I've been vaguely following this thread, since I couldn't work out what
Bob was getting at with his first question - I'd seen no bias.

Bob Ooton wrote:

> The key seems to be people SAYING that Street Samurai can't be roleplayed.
> (I know you're with me on this Michael...I just want to make another point)
> While mages are the pinnacle of roleplaying "because they are effectively
> limitless in power and advancement." Roleplaying = power???

I can't imagine how you got this impression. I didn't see anyone say
anything remotely like this. As far as I saw, the closest it came was
people saying that mages were more deadly than samurai.

I think what's happened is that the thread has swerved aside; so where
someone said `mages are better than samurai', the person meant `more
powerful', but Bob interpreted it as `better for roleplaying'.

That's my theory.

> Ya know...I
> always thought that power = munchkin. And munchkins don't have a clue about
> roleplaying, right? Archetype = roleplaying??? Nope...don't see that one
> either. PLAYer = rolePLAYing?? Now there's a concept...face it, it's not
> the archetype you play it's how you play it.

Certainly.

I'd be surprised if anyone was prepared to disagree with you there. Well ...
you could argue that you could have power and still roleplay, and not be
munchinkinous. but you know what I mean. (I hope.)

luke
Message no. 7
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Mage bias and nobody-likes-me-I'm-a-sammie...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:10:46 +0200
> The key seems to be people SAYING that Street Samurai can't be roleplayed.

No this is wrong sammies can actually be roleplayed *much* better than
mages because they are much closer to our current day outlook (I dont
know many people who can actually relate to magic :) That is why roleplaying
a sammie is easier more feasible and thusly easier to enjoy.
OTOH mages have more options in their hands, a player playing a magician
can be more creative (in a rulsy kinda sence) that is why they tend to be more
interesting to play and to discuss - its got nothing to do with roleplaying.
It goes without saying that their complexity makes them harder to roleplay
as they have a definitely alien outlook compared to our worldview....

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 8
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Mage bias and nobody-likes-me-I'm-a-sammie...
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 19:35:06 GMT
Bob Ooton writes:-
> And so far I haven't heard so much as one reply saying ">I< have and do
play
> a samurai as a main character." Looks like the bias is showing itself.

I and my wife both do (well, Lynch is a mercenary, but you get the point...)

Mages are inherently far more powerful than samurai. If they aren't, the guy
playing them is role-playing rather than munchkinizing: but the munchkins
all seem to settle on magicians.

A lot of the problems improved in the Second Edition, when it became possible
to kill opponents with pistols instead of assault cannon. But the fact remains
that a magician can only be disarmed by gouging his or her eyes out: while
for a mercenary like Lynch, taking his weapon, cuffing him and putting him
in leg-irons does pretty much eliminate his options unless the NPCs are
careless.

Why do I play a merc rather than a magician? Because he has to work harder to
succeed and that makes him more interesting to play. And while his
combat skills are gross, he's learned to deck (after running into several
other deckers who were either useless, stupid or working for the enemy he
decided he was the only person he trusted doing his matrix work) and has a
lot of skills which really aren't relevant to him being a flat-out combat
machine, but do help define him as a rounded character.

And how did Lynch enter the game age 25, wired-2, with a slew of combat skills?
In our game that's rare. Where did he come from? The answer...a detailed
background that several GMs have pulled major runs from. More fun than a
magician's "about sixteen, lived on the streets, do spells".

Less powerful maybe. I play a shaman too, but he's less interesting because he
usually wins without trouble: intelligent use of magic (_not_ just relying on
stomping faces, but fighting smart) makes a firefight much shorter. Illusion
spells of a gun turning into a poisonous snake - throw it away! Several
enemies stalking you? Mask one to look like you and turn on the lights :-)
Custom-written spells and some thought...but it's too easy :-( Lynch has
more fun.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 9
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Mage bias and nobody-likes-me-I'm-a-sammie...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:30:24 -0500
>I've been vaguely following this thread, since I couldn't work out what
>Bob was getting at with his first question - I'd seen no bias.
>
>Bob Ooton wrote:
>
>> The key seems to be people SAYING that Street Samurai can't be roleplayed.
>> (I know you're with me on this Michael...I just want to make another point)
>> While mages are the pinnacle of roleplaying "because they are effectively
>> limitless in power and advancement." Roleplaying = power???

>I can't imagine how you got this impression. I didn't see anyone say
>anything remotely like this. As far as I saw, the closest it came was
>people saying that mages were more deadly than samurai.

As regards "The key seems..." it's because a fair percentage of the audience
here thinks ALL samurai are just like Wolverine, except with guns thrown in.
As ar as "...mages are the pinnacle..." read some of the messages this post
is receiving and you'll get the picture.

>I think what's happened is that the thread has swerved aside; so where
>someone said `mages are better than samurai', the person meant `more
>powerful', but Bob interpreted it as `better for roleplaying'.

No, it's that people stereotype samurai's and expect them to fit that role,
if they don't, then they must be doing something wrong (or they're William
Gibson). While mages are somehow never stereotyped. Those GM's out there
who have mages in the party...look over the chars spell lists for a sec. Do
they look REALLY similar? The only time I see that not to be the case is
when it's a shaman (although usually they do it too..) or elementalists
(because the rules won't let them take a lot of the "prime spells"). Mages
start to look a whole lot alike once you've seen a couple.

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
(Looking for support from fellow Mohi...err..samurai, but probably doesn't
need it)

Further Reading

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