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From:	Hidesy <hidesy@********.NET>
Subject:	Mage Character
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:10:56 +1000

Message no. 1 Well, here's a question for all you mage types. I've never played a mage
before (street sams and PA's are my usual) but I figure it's probably time
to learn, what with the advent of SR3. Anyway, what I want to do is get a
very perceptive mage, that never misses anything. Of course she will have a
Intelligence of 6, the perceptive merit, perception skill(?), but I'd like
input on other ideas for this character. Can mages (unlike PAs) increase
their mental stats? Do you need spell locks for this? Are spell locks as
annoying as I think they are?

Quantum

+==================================================================+
|If you never go off on a tangent, you are doomed to go in circles.|
+==================================================================+
| -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- |
| GGIT d- s++: a18 C+++ U L !E W+1/2 N- o? K w+ O--- M-- |
| V- PS+ !PE Y+ PGP t- 5? X+ R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D++ G e>e++ h- r% x? |
| ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ |
+==================================================================+
| e-mail -- hidesy@********.net |
| ICQ UIN -- 2718472 |
+==================================================================+

From:	"Jason I. Gonding" <templar@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:16:41 -0400

Message no. 2 Hidesy wrote:

> Well, here's a question for all you mage types. I've never played a mage
> before (street sams and PA's are my usual) but I figure it's probably time
> to learn, what with the advent of SR3. Anyway, what I want to do is get a
> very perceptive mage, that never misses anything. Of course she will have a
> Intelligence of 6, the perceptive merit, perception skill(?), but I'd like
> input on other ideas for this character. Can mages (unlike PAs) increase
> their mental stats?

Yes. the Increase Attribute spell can increase your intelligence up to the
force of the spell, with your INT being the TN.

> Do you need spell locks for this?

Yes, unless you want to deal with the penalties for sustaining the spell(s).
Also, there are no more Spelllocks, now there are Sustaining Foci. You first
have to cast the spell & then use the focus to sustain it for you, which is an
exclusive action.

> Are spell locks as annoying as I think they are?

See above & make your own judgements.

You may also want to look into Detection Spells. Clairvoyance, Clairaudience,
Detect Enemies/Magic/Life/Individual/etc., Combat Sense. Would all play into
the "misses nothing" schtick. Keep in mind that you'll be lit up like a
christmas tree with all those foci going. OTOH, that'll just be more incentive
to Initiate sooner, which will allow you to mask your foci (up to your initiate
grade IIRC).

hope this helps,

Jason

PS - a healthy dose of looking over your shoulder always helps.
**************************Sic Semper Tyranids!************************
Jason I. Gonding <templar@****.net>
White Dwarf / The Citadel Journal Index
<http://www.cs.odu.edu/~gonding/index.html>;
Home Page <http://www.cs.odu.edu/~gonding/home.html>;
*******************************************************************

From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 00:43:20 -0500

Message no. 3 On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:10:56 +1000 Hidesy <hidesy@********.NET> writes:
>Well, here's a question for all you mage types. I've never played a
mage
>before (street sams and PA's are my usual) but I figure it's probably
time
>to learn, what with the advent of SR3. Anyway, what I want to do is get
a
>very perceptive mage, that never misses anything. Of course she will
have a
>Intelligence of 6, the perceptive merit, perception skill(?), but I'd
like
>input on other ideas for this character.

There is no Perception skill. For skill ideas look at the Investigator
Archetype. (It's not an archetype anymore.-Ed) [Oh bite me.-Ned)

>Can mages (unlike PAs) increase
>their mental stats?

uhmm... through karma like anyone else ... (Ie, there are no Mage powers
like there are PhysAd Powers ...)

>Do you need spell locks for this? Are spell locks as
>annoying as I think they are?
>
>Quantum
<SNIP Sig>

Spell Locks don't exist anymore ... Sustaining Foci are what you'd use :)

my reccomendation? Get lots of detection spells ... possibly even burn a
point of magic for some cyberware senory enhancements (but not more than
1 point)

Two top picks for spells: Catalogue and Animal Spy (both in Awakenings)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:57:12 +0200

Message no. 4 Hidesy said on 13:10/7 Sep 98,...

> Well, here's a question for all you mage types. I've never played a mage
> before (street sams and PA's are my usual) but I figure it's probably time
> to learn, what with the advent of SR3. Anyway, what I want to do is get a
> very perceptive mage, that never misses anything. Of course she will have a
> Intelligence of 6, the perceptive merit, perception skill(?)

There's no such thing, although now the complementary skill rules exist,
perhaps it should be allowed -- with Perception skill being a
complimentary skill to Perception tests, and perhaps to other things
involving paying close attention as well...?

> but I'd like
> input on other ideas for this character. Can mages (unlike PAs) increase
> their mental stats?

By spending Karma, sure. Or by getting bio- or cyberware, like an
encephalon.

> Do you need spell locks for this? Are spell locks as
> annoying as I think they are?

Spell locks don't exist in SR3 anymore, you now need a sustaining focus.
Oncve you have one of these, cast an Increase Intelligence spell onto it.

However, I think an Intelligence of 6 will make you quite perceptive
already...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	schog <jester@**********.NL>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:41:14 +0200

Message no. 5 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDDA4C.492568C0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Hidesy [SMTP:hidesy@********.NET]
Verzonden: maandag 7 september 1998 5:11
Aan: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Onderwerp: Mage Character

First of all, I'm new in this sort of sh*t. So don't mind any screw ups =
from my side. I've been playing SR for almost a year now and I grew up =
with SR2. The longest living caracter I've had was an eagle shaman named =
Mighty Eagle. He was (un)lucky enough to survive Harley's Back, and then =
got killed by one of his teammates. But that's another long story.

Well, here's a question for all you mage types. I've never played a =
mage
before (street sams and PA's are my usual) but I figure it's probably =
time
to learn, what with the advent of SR3. Anyway, what I want to do is get =
a
very perceptive mage, that never misses anything. Of course she will =
have a
Intelligence of 6, the perceptive merit, perception skill(?), but I'd =
like
input on other ideas for this character.

I don't think its the intelligence of the caracter that creates a very =
perceptive mage, but it's up to the player to notice the clues he gains =
from his/her GM during play. For example, it's the players yob to =
suspect an army of insect spirits behind that closed door and not some =
lucky intelligence roll from the caracter.
An intelligence of six does help during caracter creation, but only =
because it boosts the astral, combat and spell pools.

Can mages (unlike PAs) increase
their mental stats?
The only way for this is to burn karma.

Do you need spell locks for this? Are spell locks as
annoying as I think they are?

Spell lock's weren't annoying. Their power was in balance with the risk =
for being destroyed by a spell grounded through the blasted thing. With =
the SR3 rules we don't have to worry for being killed by a grounded =
spell anymore, but also, spell locks are replaced by sustaining-foci =
(Wich I think really S*CKS, hey I for one liked the grounding rules for =
foci, Am I the only one?)

One last note from a beginning mailer: Try playing a shaman (preferably =
an Eagle) for the first time. It isn't as hard as it looks, and you'll =
have some background info of how the caracter is supposed to behave in =
life, too.

Quantum

+=========================
==========================
=================+
|If you never go off on a tangent, you are doomed to go in circles.|
+=========================
==========================
=================+
| -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- |
| GGIT d- s++: a18 C+++ U L !E W+1/2 N- o? K w+ O--- M-- |
| V- PS+ !PE Y+ PGP t- 5? X+ R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D++ G e>e++ h- r% x? |
| ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ |
+=========================
==========================
=================+
| e-mail -- hidesy@********.net |
| ICQ UIN -- 2718472 |
+=========================
==========================
=================+

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------ =_NextPart_000_01BDDA4C.492568C0--

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:03:56 +0100

Message no. 6 And verily, did Hidesy hastily scribble thusly...

|Can mages (unlike PAs) increase their mental stats?

Yes. Increase Willpower, Increase Charisma and Increase Intelligence.

|Do you need spell locks for this?

No such thing anymore. Spell locks have been deleted, replaced by something
called a spell sustaining focus which basically does the same thing, only
for a limited period of time.

|Are spell locks as annoying as I think they are?

I think a little bit more play testing on the part of the list members with
the book is required for them to report on the new sustaining focus....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:14:50 +0100

Message no. 7 And verily, did Jason I. Gonding hastily scribble thusly...
|Yes, unless you want to deal with the penalties for sustaining the spell(s).
|Also, there are no more Spelllocks, now there are Sustaining Foci. You first
|have to cast the spell & then use the focus to sustain it for you, which is an
|exclusive action.

Hang on.... An exclusive action? As in, once the mage has activated the
focus, he can't cast or do anything else magical until the focus is switched
off? Or do you mean that he can only sustain the spell that he's about to
hand over to the focus, and nothing else?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:32:48 +0100

Message no. 8 And verily, did schog hastily scribble thusly...
|First of all, I'm new in this sort of sh*t. So don't mind any screw ups =
|from my side.

I can tell.
You're sending a binary attachment.

Stop it.
|+=========================
|==========================
|=================+

And you might want to fix that as well....
|Content-Type: application/ms-tnef

What a suprise. A Microsoft mailer.
(Why is it always the Microsoft crap (or web browsers) that send these
crappy binaries?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:46:21 -0500

Message no. 9 ----------
> From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
>
> |Also, there are no more Spelllocks, now there are Sustaining Foci. You
first
> |have to cast the spell & then use the focus to sustain it for you,
which is an
> |exclusive action.
>
> Hang on.... An exclusive action? As in, once the mage has activated the
> focus, he can't cast or do anything else magical until the focus is
switched
> off? Or do you mean that he can only sustain the spell that he's about
to
> hand over to the focus, and nothing else?

Once its been locked into the SusFoc, its no longer an exclusive action.
You can now do whatever you want.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
The place to improve the world is in one's own heart and head and hands,
and then work outward from there. Other people talk about how to expand
the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a
motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value.
-Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:49:19 +0200

Message no. 10 Spike said on 14:32/7 Sep 98,...

> And verily, did schog hastily scribble thusly...
> |First of all, I'm new in this sort of sh*t. So don't mind any screw ups =
> |from my side.
>
> I can tell.
> You're sending a binary attachment.

Spike, how many times do we have to tell you that GridSec will handle
these things? I've already written him to explain these things (and if he
doesn't fix it, I know where he lives :)

> (Why is it always the Microsoft crap (or web browsers) that send these
> crappy binaries?

You might as well wonder about the meaning of life while you're asking
questions... ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:47:54 -0700

Message no. 11 :Well, here's a question for all you mage types. I've never played a mage
:before (street sams and PA's are my usual) but I figure it's probably
time
:to learn, what with the advent of SR3. Anyway, what I want to do is get
a
:very perceptive mage, that never misses anything. Of course she will
have a
:Intelligence of 6, the perceptive merit, perception skill(?), but I'd
like
:input on other ideas for this character. Can mages (unlike PAs) increase
:their mental stats? Do you need spell locks for this? Are spell locks
as
:annoying as I think they are?

Mages don't have any inherent way to increase attributes that mundanes
don't; they could use an increase attribute spells (an possibly sustaining
foci) on themselves (or others, for that matter). Detection spells would
also work very well. Getting good results from a "increase attribute"
spell, even cast for a focus, could be hard, also.
My impression is that sustaining foci are not terribly annoying to
use, and are failure durable if of high force, but will either gobble up a
fair chunk of force points and cash, or be easy to take out.

Mongoose

From:	Razor Girl <sprawlg@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 11:53:06 PDT

Message no. 12 >|Can mages (unlike PAs) increase their mental stats?
>
>Yes. Increase Willpower, Increase Charisma and Increase Intelligence.

Well, they can increase their stats via spells. They can't increase
their mental stats like an adept can. Spending "power points" to improve
atributes. They only gain spell increases for long periods of time if
they use sustaining foci, elemental sustaining, or whatever new version
of quickening comes out in MitS. That can be a bitch for long term
increases. Minor distiction, but an important one.

Also this means that anyone can increase their mental stats via spells,
if they can find someone with the right spells that is. And a foci to
sustain it.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 15:31:22 -0700

Message no. 13 :And verily, did Jason I. Gonding hastily scribble thusly...
:|Yes, unless you want to deal with the penalties for sustaining the
spell(s).
:|Also, there are no more Spelllocks, now there are Sustaining Foci. You
first
:|have to cast the spell & then use the focus to sustain it for you, which
is an
:|exclusive action.
:
:Hang on.... An exclusive action? As in, once the mage has activated the
:focus, he can't cast or do anything else magical until the focus is
switched
:off? Or do you mean that he can only sustain the spell that he's about to
:hand over to the focus, and nothing else?
:

His summary is poor; casting the spell for the focus is an exclusive
magical which also activates the focus. It then sustains the spell, and
the mage can act as normal. So starting up a sustaining focus in a
magical combat is unwise; otherwise, its not such a big deal, except you
risk drain and might not do as well as you'd like.

Mongoose

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:36:00 +0100

Message no. 14 And verily, did Razor Girl hastily scribble thusly...
|
|>|Can mages (unlike PAs) increase their mental stats?
|>
|>Yes. Increase Willpower, Increase Charisma and Increase Intelligence.
|
|Well, they can increase their stats via spells. They can't increase
|their mental stats like an adept can.

That's what I meant. (Hence the mention of the spell-locks^H^H^H^Hsustaining
foci....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	"Jason I. Gonding" <templar@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:38:27 -0400

Message no. 15 > And verily, did Jason I. Gonding hastily scribble thusly...
> |Yes, unless you want to deal with the penalties for sustaining the spell(s).
> |Also, there are no more Spelllocks, now there are Sustaining Foci. You first
> |have to cast the spell & then use the focus to sustain it for you, which is an
> |exclusive action.
>
> Hang on.... An exclusive action? As in, once the mage has activated the
> focus, he can't cast or do anything else magical until the focus is switched
> off? Or do you mean that he can only sustain the spell that he's about to
> hand over to the focus, and nothing else?

The latter. As I read it in SR3, when you cast a spell to be sustained by a
Sustaining Focus it is an exclusive action. Here's the quote:

"...The owner casts the spell, activating the focus,. which then automatically
sustains the spell. Casting a spell for a sustaining focus to sustain is an
Exclusive Action; this means that Exclusive spells cannot be maintained by a
sustaining focus."(SR3, p 190-1).

This tripped me out the first time I read thru it, but successive readings have
cleared things up a bit.

hope this helps,

Jason

*************************Sic Semper Tyranids!************************
Jason I. Gonding <templar@****.net>
White Dwarf / The Citadel Journal Index <http://www.cs.odu.edu/~gonding/index.html>;

Home Page <http://www.cs.odu.edu/~gonding/home.html>;
******************************************************************

From:	NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:56:13 +1000

Message no. 16 > -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of Gurth
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 1998 5:57 PM
>
>
> > Intelligence of 6, the perceptive merit, perception skill(?)
>
> There's no such thing, although now the complementary skill
> rules exist,
> perhaps it should be allowed -- with Perception skill being a
> complimentary skill to Perception tests, and perhaps to other things
> involving paying close attention as well...?

It's a skill that I have allowed in my campaign (of which Quantum is a
part). I basically figured there was an Astral Perception skill (read
aura reading) so why the hell not have a straight perception skill for
those trained investigator types and the like. Now, as you say, 3rd
ed has a nice system written into the rules in the form of
complementary skills, and all of my old house rules have been cleared
out for this much simpler system.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 09:19:03 -0400

Message no. 17 On Mon, 7 Sep 1998, Gurth wrote:

->Hidesy said on 13:10/7 Sep 98,...
->
->> Well, here's a question for all you mage types. I've never played a mage
->> before (street sams and PA's are my usual) but I figure it's probably time
->> to learn, what with the advent of SR3. Anyway, what I want to do is get a
->> very perceptive mage, that never misses anything. Of course she will have a
->> Intelligence of 6, the perceptive merit, perception skill(?)
->
->There's no such thing, although now the complementary skill rules exist,
->perhaps it should be allowed -- with Perception skill being a
->complimentary skill to Perception tests, and perhaps to other things
->involving paying close attention as well...?

You can use Stealth (Awareness) as a Complimentary Skill to aid in
perceiving (BBB3, pg 231, 6th paragraph under PERCEPTION). Makes Physads
with Stealth 6+4(magical) and increased perception (2) REALLY good at
noticing folks.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	00DNA <mcmanus@******.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:37:00 -0400

Message no. 18 >There is no Perception skill. For skill ideas look at the Investigator
>Archetype. (It's not an archetype anymore.-Ed) [Oh bite me.-Ned)

Stealth (Awarness)
--00DNA
"The Matrix patterns itself on Nature" <<Replication Terminated>>

From:	Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 10:24:43 -0500

Message no. 19 ----------
> From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
>
> You can use Stealth (Awareness) as a Complimentary Skill to aid
in
> perceiving (BBB3, pg 231, 6th paragraph under PERCEPTION). Makes
Physads
> with Stealth 6+4(magical) and increased perception (2) REALLY good at
> noticing folks.

::runs up and kisses David:: thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou

I have a PAD character who is almost entirely grounded in his senses...
aside from that hefty stealth skill! Hey, Mike... looks like I now roll
17 dice for those perception tests!

::dances with glee::

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
The place to improve the world is in one's own heart and head and hands,
and then work outward from there. Other people talk about how to expand
the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a
motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value.
-Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:36:02 -0700

Message no. 20 :> From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
:>
:> You can use Stealth (Awareness) as a Complimentary Skill to aid
:in
:> perceiving (BBB3, pg 231, 6th paragraph under PERCEPTION). Makes
:Physads
:> with Stealth 6+4(magical) and increased perception (2) REALLY good at
:> noticing folks.
:
:::runs up and kisses David:: thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou
:
:I have a PAD character who is almost entirely grounded in his senses...
:aside from that hefty stealth skill! Hey, Mike... looks like I now roll
:17 dice for those perception tests!
:

That would seem to make sneaking up on people really hard; if two
characters have the same stealth (and intelligence)- they are more likely
to see each other than sneak up, regardless of skill.
And anyhow, how do you sue a complimentary skill in an OPEN TEST?

Mongoose

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:48:44 -0400

Message no. 21 On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Mongoose wrote:

->:> From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
->:>
-> That would seem to make sneaking up on people really hard; if two
->characters have the same stealth (and intelligence)- they are more likely
->to see each other than sneak up, regardless of skill.
-> And anyhow, how do you sue a complimentary skill in an OPEN TEST?

Lessee... Characters have Stealth 5 & Intelligence 5. No
specializations.
Character 1 is trying to sneak up on character 2 (who's just
minding his own business). Rolls an Open-ended test score of 5 (Not too
shabby).
Character 2 (who's sure the run he just pulled off is gonna tick
somebody off) rolls 5 dice for Stealth first against a target number of 5.
He manages to get two successes. He divides this by two and gets one
success which he adds to the results of his perception test (which only
scores one success), giving him two successes against his opponent.
Character 2 whips a rocket launcher out of his pocket and blows
Character 1 to Hell and back. Character 1 curses the lousy die roll.
This is how you use a complimentary skill. Nowhere does it state
that Stealth checks are ALWAYS open tests.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:42:23 +0200

Message no. 22 David Foster said on 9:19/8 Sep 98,...

> You can use Stealth (Awareness) as a Complimentary Skill to aid in
> perceiving (BBB3, pg 231, 6th paragraph under PERCEPTION). Makes Physads
> with Stealth 6+4(magical) and increased perception (2) REALLY good at
> noticing folks.

Yes, but I see this more as an awareness of the way people sneak around
and hide things, rather than general awareness. A Perception skill would
still be a nice thing to add, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:53:15 -0400

Message no. 23 Mongoose wrote:
>
> And anyhow, how do you sue a complimentary skill in an OPEN TEST?

My opinion: Add half the dice to the Open Test roll.

Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net

From:	The Great Cornholio <ChemPhD2Be@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:40:32 EDT

Message no. 24 In a message dated 98-09-07 00:08:27 EDT, you write:

<< Can mages (unlike PAs) increase
their mental stats? Do you need spell locks for this? Are spell locks as
annoying as I think they are? >>

Yes. Yes and no. Yes.

In more detail, a spell lock is an astral beacon saying "Ground a fireball
thru me!" I dunno if quickenings are still around, and I assume they are (SR3
hasn't arrived in Laramie Wyoming just yet) they're safer than locks. And you
can always quicken that nifty Incr Attribute +4 spell to you. Just expect it
to be broken a lot.

TGC

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:23:05 -0400

Message no. 25 At 07:40 PM 9/8/98 EDT, you wrote:

>In more detail, a spell lock is an astral beacon saying "Ground a fireball
>thru me!" I dunno if quickenings are still around, and I assume they are
(SR3
>hasn't arrived in Laramie Wyoming just yet) they're safer than locks. And
you
>can always quicken that nifty Incr Attribute +4 spell to you. Just expect it
>to be broken a lot.

Ya'll better hurry up and get yerself a copy of SR3 up there in BFE,
Wyoming! ;-)

No more grounding. No more spell locks (replaced in SR3 by Spell
Sustaining Foci; it sustains the spell for you, but once you drop it, you
have to recast the spell to turn it back on, essentially). Quickenings
will be handled in "Magic in the Shadows" due out sometime in the next six
months (I'm hearing conflicting rumors about exactly when)

I told you things changed in SR3... ;-)

I noticed you changed your addy too...so what the hell are you planning to
do with a Chem Doctorate?

Erik J.

http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Tue, 8 Sep 1998 20:09:48 -0600

Message no. 26 The Great Cornholio wrote:
/
/ In more detail, a spell lock is an astral beacon saying "Ground a fireball
/ thru me!" I dunno if quickenings are still around, and I assume they are (SR3
/ hasn't arrived in Laramie Wyoming just yet) they're safer than locks. And you
/ can always quicken that nifty Incr Attribute +4 spell to you. Just expect it
/ to be broken a lot.

One of the significant changes in SR3 is that grounding is no longer
possible (unless MITS adds a wrinkle).

TGC is in Laramie, Granite is in JG, Wordman in Pueblo, Me in
Denver... We're gonna have to get together sometime :)

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:54:05 EDT

Message no. 27 In a message dated 9/8/98 1:30:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
evamarie@**********.net writes:

> And anyhow, how do you sue a complimentary skill in an OPEN TEST?

First of all, you don't "sue" complimentary skills. It would be thrown out of
a court of law.

But, getting back to the question, I would have the pc player roll their dice,
and then choosing one of the die rolls as the target number for the
complimentary skill test. Any additional successes on the complimentary skill
increases the detail of the information gained from that target number to
begin with.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:40:40 +0200

Message no. 28 According to Steve Eley, at 15:53 on 8 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Mongoose wrote:
> >
> > And anyhow, how do you sue a complimentary skill in an OPEN TEST?
>
> My opinion: Add half the dice to the Open Test roll.

Alternatively, roll the complimentary dice and halve their result. If it
beats that of the normal dice, use the complimentary dice result.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:30:52 +0100

Message no. 29 And verily, did The Great Cornholio hastily scribble thusly...
|
|In a message dated 98-09-07 00:08:27 EDT, you write:
|
|<< Can mages (unlike PAs) increase
| their mental stats? Do you need spell locks for this? Are spell locks as
| annoying as I think they are? >>
|
|Yes. Yes and no. Yes.
|
|In more detail, a spell lock is an astral beacon saying "Ground a fireball
|thru me!" I dunno if quickenings are still around, and I assume they are (SR3
|hasn't arrived in Laramie Wyoming just yet) they're safer than locks.

Ahhhh. But locks (or sustaining foci) are as safe as quickenings now.
Grounding no longer exists in SR3.
It's just the the sustaining foci now have a duration, whereas
quickenings???
Who can say. We'll find out when MITS comes out.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Brian Moore <mooreb@****.FAC.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:15:47 -0400

Message no. 30 Hidesy <hidesy@********.NET> said:
>
> Well, here's a question for all you mage types. I've never played a mage
> before (street sams and PA's are my usual) but I figure it's probably time
> to learn, what with the advent of SR3. Anyway, what I want to do is get a
> very perceptive mage, that never misses anything. Of course she will have a
> Intelligence of 6, the perceptive merit, perception skill(?), but I'd like
> input on other ideas for this character. Can mages (unlike PAs) increase
> their mental stats? Do you need spell locks for this? Are spell locks as
> annoying as I think they are?

I tried to respond to this yesterday, but my machine crashed. Here I go
again...

I'm a min-maxer. I look for the most efficient way to do things. SR3
fixes most of the attribute increase problems (from karma and magic), but
introduces one small flaw.

In SR3, if you have an initiated mage with a decent centering skill, it
is more efficient to have an INT of 4, and use the Increase Int spell to
raise it. With an INT of 6, you can get +2 from the Increase Int spell
(for a total INT of 8) with a little luck and a single Karma reroll.
With an INT of 4, you can usually get +5 (for a total of 9). This assumes
a Sorcery of 6, an extra 6 dice from Magic Pool, and a Centering skill of
4. Note that if you have a low INT, you may not have a Magic Pool of 6,
but you can increase it using foci. As Sorcery and Centering skills go
up, you can often get +6 or so. Just something to think about if you
want a REALLY high INT. It will cost karma to quicken the spell or to
bond a Sustaining Focus, plus force points to start with a Force 6
Increase Int spell, but it ends up costing far less karma than it would
to raise your Int the standard way.

If you're using the Companion and Edges/Flaws, consider Increased Attribute
Maximum Int. You can start with an INT of 7.

People have mentioned some detection spells, I recommend them. My mage
has a quickened (Extended range) Detect Enemies spell up all the time.
It REALLY helps point out the bad guys. Detect Life will point out
ambushes in supposedly empty areas. Clairvoyance and X-Ray Vision are
great for safe scouting.

Don't overlook the standard Enhanced Senses like Thermal Vision, Night
Vision, Mag Vision, Enhanced Hearing, etc. You may get some as racial
bonuses, depending on your race. You can get a little cyberware (1 point
goes a LONG way when it comes to enhanced senses). If your GM will let
you play a Physical Magician, take 1 or 2 points of Adept enhanced senses.
Or just make sure you always have mirrorshades with built-in enhancements.
They cost a bit more than obvious goggles, but they're worth it.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-

From:	NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:58:50 +1000

Message no. 31 > -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of 00DNA
> Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 1998 12:37 AM
>
>
> >There is no Perception skill. For skill ideas look at the
> Investigator
> >Archetype. (It's not an archetype anymore.-Ed) [Oh bite me.-Ned)
>
> Stealth (Awarness)

The problem is though that Stealth(Awareness) can only be used to when
noticing people that are using stealth to hide. It's of absolutely no
use when looking around a room for that vital clue, which a Perception
skill would cover.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947

From:	Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:34:13 -0400

Message no. 32 NightRain wrote:
>
> The problem is though that Stealth(Awareness) can only be used to when
> noticing people that are using stealth to hide. It's of absolutely no
> use when looking around a room for that vital clue, which a Perception
> skill would cover.

Actually, for a "vital clue" sort of test I might add an active skill
called "Investigation." This'd be rolled by itself when doing research,
and complementary to the Perception test when looking for clues as you
describe. After all, you have to be able to *recognize* that it's a
clue. >8->

Have Fun,
- Steve Eley (who now has an insane urge to write up Darryl Zero as a
Shadowrun character)
sfeley@***.net

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:21:31 -0400

Message no. 33 On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, NightRain wrote:

->> >There is no Perception skill. For skill ideas look at the
->> Investigator
->> >Archetype. (It's not an archetype anymore.-Ed) [Oh bite me.-Ned)
->>
->> Stealth (Awarness)
->
->The problem is though that Stealth(Awareness) can only be used to when
->noticing people that are using stealth to hide. It's of absolutely no
->use when looking around a room for that vital clue, which a Perception
->skill would cover.

Please give me the page number of that clarification. It's
something of a debate point between my players and I. I was under the
understanding that anything hidden would be able to use Stealth
(Awareness) as a complimentary skill. Things like: noticing a pattern,
realizing the amount of blood on the floor could only have come from more
than one body or one troll, etc would not be able to use Stealth
(Awareness), but noticing anything hidden should.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	Matthew Waddilove <matthew@*********.U-NET.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:02:55 +0100

Message no. 34 >On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, NightRain wrote:
>
>->> >There is no Perception skill. For skill ideas look at the
>->> Investigator
>->> >Archetype. (It's not an archetype anymore.-Ed) [Oh bite me.-Ned)
>->>
>->> Stealth (Awarness)
>->
>->The problem is though that Stealth(Awareness) can only be used to when
>->noticing people that are using stealth to hide. It's of absolutely no
>->use when looking around a room for that vital clue, which a Perception
>->skill would cover.
>
> Please give me the page number of that clarification. It's
>something of a debate point between my players and I. I was under the
>understanding that anything hidden would be able to use Stealth
>(Awareness) as a complimentary skill. Things like: noticing a pattern,
>realizing the amount of blood on the floor could only have come from more
>than one body or one troll, etc would not be able to use Stealth
>(Awareness), but noticing anything hidden should.
>

Page 96 SR3 softbacksecond paragraph
"The Alertness specialization is best treated as a Complementary Skill
(see p. 97) for Perception Test. Characters can use this Complementary Skill
only when applicable to stealth in some way: spotting a tail, keeping
someone they are tailing in sight, spotting a camouflaged person or item,
recognizing that the waiter is really a disguised assasin, and so on."

I think that that about covers it.

I havn't got SR2 here so can't tell you about that one.

-Matthew Waddilove

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:23:28 -0400

Message no. 35 On Fri, 11 Sep 1998, Matthew Waddilove wrote:

<snip earlier bit>
->> Please give me the page number of that clarification. It's
->>something of a debate point between my players and I. I was under the
->>understanding that anything hidden would be able to use Stealth
->>(Awareness) as a complimentary skill. Things like: noticing a pattern,
->>realizing the amount of blood on the floor could only have come from more
->>than one body or one troll, etc would not be able to use Stealth
->>(Awareness), but noticing anything hidden should.
->
->Page 96 SR3 softbacksecond paragraph
-> "The Alertness specialization is best treated as a Complementary Skill
->(see p. 97) for Perception Test. Characters can use this Complementary Skill
->only when applicable to stealth in some way: spotting a tail, keeping
->someone they are tailing in sight, spotting a camouflaged person or item,
->recognizing that the waiter is really a disguised assasin, and so on."

So, in effect, it is saying it can be used to assist in the
detection of things hidden (as all the examples are items or persons
hiding or hidden). It would not assist if an object is in plain sight
(like a bunch of papers on a desk, but looking for only one sheet).

->I think that that about covers it.

I think so. We're almost agreeing, and I have only used it for
noticing hidden objects anyways.

->I havn't got SR2 here so can't tell you about that one.

I don't believe Stealth (Awareness) was in SRII, so it's kinda
moot anyway. ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Mage Character
Date:	Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:29:34 EDT

Message no. 36 In a message dated 9/11/1998 9:15:08 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

<snipped stuff on Stealth (Awareness) from SR3>

> ->I havn't got SR2 here so can't tell you about that one.
>
> I don't believe Stealth (Awareness) was in SRII, so it's kinda
> moot anyway. ]:-)

Juts for the record, there is a "Sentry" skill that is listed with one of the
security/guard types in the Sprawl sites contact groupings. IIRC.

-K

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