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Message no. 1
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: RE: MAge discussion (WAS :Metamagic)
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 17:38:36 -0700 (PDT)
On Mon, 13 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

>>> Make a cyberzombie, with the cash that this mage has probably hauled in, you
>>> could do it easily. What's that? You want to actually try and cast a spell
>>> at me? *chuckle-snort* Have your advil handy ;)

> >((This mage has 'hauled in' very little cash... most of it went to helping
> >the rest of the team buy THEIR equipment...))

> So he still made a lot of cash, he just spent it in a poor manner. That was
> his choice. I'd call it a dumb one. No realistic shadowrunner would give
> away his hard earned cash unless it was coming back to him with interest or
> he was completely mad.

No, he "hauled in very little cash". Part of the ROLE-PLAYING of this
character was that he was not completely money-oriented like most chars
(that I've seen)... he was more oriented toward various goals, which were
part of the ROLE-PLAYING of that particular character. And no, he didn't
spend his cash in a poor fashion... he spent it very well... he spent it,
investing the TEAM, the payoffs of which would be an easier time of
things, and the occasional ass-saving.


---Tom---
Message no. 2
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: RE: MAge discussion (WAS :Metamagic)
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 20:40:23 -0500
>> So he still made a lot of cash, he just spent it in a poor manner. That was
>> his choice. I'd call it a dumb one. No realistic shadowrunner would give
>> away his hard earned cash unless it was coming back to him with interest or
>> he was completely mad.

>No, he "hauled in very little cash". Part of the ROLE-PLAYING of this
>character was that he was not completely money-oriented like most chars
>(that I've seen)... he was more oriented toward various goals, which were
>part of the ROLE-PLAYING of that particular character. And no, he didn't
>spend his cash in a poor fashion... he spent it very well... he spent it,
>investing the TEAM, the payoffs of which would be an easier time of
>things, and the occasional ass-saving.

There's a team I'd kill to be a part of. Not only do you get paid for what
you do, but the mage pays you again! Why don't the runners that I know do
that? Hmm, could be that sanity thing, or maybe that they appreciate
everything they get as reward for a job well done.

The key word in my statement above was "realistic". There's dozens of
unrealistic runners out there. I just dump the runners that don't need to
do shadowruns, but still risks his life and livelihood for little or no
reward into that category. Go figure.

He could sit around in his group's mansion, teaching fellow initiates the
ways of the metaplanes, making far more money than he does shadowrunning
(like he needs it anyway, permanent high lifestyle), without risk to
himself, gaining valuable knowledge and pursuing his art in ways that
shadowrunning doesn't allow him to do, but he doesn't. There's a touch
madness in that one.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 3
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: RE: MAge discussion (WAS :Metamagic)
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 22:06:56 -0700 (PDT)
> >spend his cash in a poor fashion... he spent it very well... he spent it,
> >investing the TEAM, the payoffs of which would be an easier time of
> >things, and the occasional ass-saving.
>
> There's a team I'd kill to be a part of. Not only do you get paid for what
> you do, but the mage pays you again! Why don't the runners that I know do
> that? Hmm, could be that sanity thing, or maybe that they appreciate
> everything they get as reward for a job well done.

((YOU aren't getting paid so much as the TEAM is getting paid. The mage
didn't need the cash so much as the cybers did, so the cash went into
them...))

> The key word in my statement above was "realistic". There's dozens of
> unrealistic runners out there. I just dump the runners that don't need to
> do shadowruns, but still risks his life and livelihood for little or no
> reward into that category. Go figure.

((Maybe YOU can't play a char like that, but most of the players in my
group have at one time or another. My (somewhat) cybered char in that
group doesn't have much money anymore-- he's pretty much retired (from
shadowrunning, not from me playing him in the SRII world), and he
doesn't have as much money as he used to, but he still
would have no problem about sinking some money into helping someone else
out... covering a hospital stay, or flying his entire team to another
country to save someone from whatever... he's just that kind of person.
Same with Garth (the mage)... (now) he does what he does because he can
do things he WANTS to do... his greater power allows him to accomplish
things he never would have before... he doesn't HAVE to... but (cheese
alert) if its a good thing to do, he'll do it.)

> He could sit around in his group's mansion, teaching fellow initiates the
> ways of the metaplanes, making far more money than he does shadowrunning
> (like he needs it anyway, permanent high lifestyle), without risk to
> himself, gaining valuable knowledge and pursuing his art in ways that
> shadowrunning doesn't allow him to do, but he doesn't. There's a touch
> madness in that one.

((Because of what he does <explained above> he doesn't have time for
sitting around teaching, besides that's not his style... and he usually
ends up sleeping in a small hotel, or in the forests of the NAN, when
he'se on the job... he doesn't hang out in his high lifestyle that often...))



---Tom---
Message no. 4
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: RE: MAge discussion (WAS :Metamagic)
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 09:41:00 +0200
At 3:40 Uhr 14.05.96, TopCat wrote:
>The key word in my statement above was "realistic". There's dozens of
>unrealistic runners out there. I just dump the runners that don't need to
>do shadowruns, but still risks his life and livelihood for little or no
>reward into that category. Go figure.
>
>He could sit around in his group's mansion, teaching fellow initiates the
>ways of the metaplanes, making far more money than he does shadowrunning
>(like he needs it anyway, permanent high lifestyle), without risk to
>himself, gaining valuable knowledge and pursuing his art in ways that
>shadowrunning doesn't allow him to do, but he doesn't. There's a touch
>madness in that one.

Maybe you -even you- can understand that sometimes -just sometimes- there
are other motivations then just pure cash? The shaman of mine would have had
'nough money so far, but part of it went into a teammate, to save his ***
after he managed to 'get it shot off', and with the rest he buys things.
Things to help his pack, err, sorry, team, and things that will enable him
to be prepared for EVERYTHING once he settles down. With his team.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 5
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: RE: MAge discussion (WAS :Metamagic)
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 11:16:48 -0700 (PDT)
<lots of snipping>

> Maybe you -even you- can understand that sometimes -just sometimes- there
> are other motivations then just pure cash? The shaman of mine would have had
> 'nough money so far, but part of it went into a teammate, to save his ***
> after he managed to 'get it shot off', and with the rest he buys things.
> Things to help his pack, err, sorry, team, and things that will enable him
> to be prepared for EVERYTHING once he settles down. With his team.
>
> Sascha

((Yay. I'm glad I'm not the only one... :) ))


--Tom---
Message no. 6
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: RE: MAge discussion (WAS :Metamagic)
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 15:27:26 -0500
>Maybe you -even you- can understand that sometimes -just sometimes- there
>are other motivations then just pure cash? The shaman of mine would have had
>'nough money so far, but part of it went into a teammate, to save his ***
>after he managed to 'get it shot off', and with the rest he buys things.
>Things to help his pack, err, sorry, team, and things that will enable him
>to be prepared for EVERYTHING once he settles down. With his team.

I don't have that team mentality as much as many other people do. If my
characters make bridges, they have to be able to burn them. Why? Because
every little detail can end up on someone's report and it may say "TopCat is
known to associate with...etc". Teams are useful inasmuch as they allow for
greater overall skills and manpower. Which is fine, but there're teams all
over the shadows that need new members. As a floating character you don't
have the problems that a locked character will have. The benefits gained
through a consistent team (our most consistent team lasted 3 months
realtime) don't come close to outweighing the ability to join those teams as
help or to go to other teams when needed.

Eventually, our shadowrunning campaigns (I don't really feel like I could
call the detective campaign shadowrunning) consisted of a "guild" of runners
who would accept runs based on their capabilities. The talent pool always
delivered the best mix for the job (well, not always, but much more often
than the set team).

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 7
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: RE: MAge discussion (WAS :Metamagic)
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 15:27:22 -0500
>> There's a team I'd kill to be a part of. Not only do you get paid for what
>> you do, but the mage pays you again! Why don't the runners that I know do
>> that? Hmm, could be that sanity thing, or maybe that they appreciate
>> everything they get as reward for a job well done.

>((YOU aren't getting paid so much as the TEAM is getting paid.

Says who?

>The mage
>didn't need the cash so much as the cybers did, so the cash went into
>them...))

Which was nice, but silly. For a rare change of pace, I think I'll ask to
agree to disagree here...

>> The key word in my statement above was "realistic". There's dozens of
>> unrealistic runners out there. I just dump the runners that don't need to
>> do shadowruns, but still risks his life and livelihood for little or no
>> reward into that category. Go figure.

>((Maybe YOU can't play a char like that, but most of the players in my
>group have at one time or another. My (somewhat) cybered char in that
>group doesn't have much money anymore-- he's pretty much retired (from
>shadowrunning, not from me playing him in the SRII world), and he
>doesn't have as much money as he used to, but he still
>would have no problem about sinking some money into helping someone else
>out... covering a hospital stay, or flying his entire team to another
>country to save someone from whatever... he's just that kind of person.

Which I've done before too, but I always got my money back or the equivalent
in trade. I probably couldn't play a character like that because it
wouldn't feel realistic to me. I, personally, would never throw money at my
friends without any hope of return. Why would my characters?

>> He could sit around in his group's mansion, teaching fellow initiates the
>> ways of the metaplanes, making far more money than he does shadowrunning
>> (like he needs it anyway, permanent high lifestyle), without risk to
>> himself, gaining valuable knowledge and pursuing his art in ways that
>> shadowrunning doesn't allow him to do, but he doesn't. There's a touch
>> madness in that one.

>((Because of what he does <explained above> he doesn't have time for
>sitting around teaching, besides that's not his style... and he usually
>ends up sleeping in a small hotel, or in the forests of the NAN, when
>he'se on the job... he doesn't hang out in his high lifestyle that often...))

He wants to do good things, so educate people on what those good things are
and better train them to do those things. One man (no matter his power
level) can't do as much as 100,000 people can. Let alone millions. Buy
stock in corporations and demand changes. Publicize information that they
don't want people knowing and those changes'll get made FAST. He may not be
the most liked character (by the corp) but he'll be a public figure (too
important to kill/martyr) and he'll be doing a lot of good.

Perhaps the largest problem I face in this part of the thread is that I
always have a solid, defined goal for my characters and strive toward it
(usually some sort of retirement outside of the shadows). Once I get there,
I retire the character. Why? Because he got what he wanted. He may end up
with a presence in the shadows still (keeping in touch with contacts) but
he'll no longer be a runner. I just couldn't see playing a character
forever as a runner.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 8
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: RE: MAge discussion (WAS :Metamagic)
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 14:41:08 -0700 (PDT)
> Which I've done before too, but I always got my money back or the equivalent
> in trade. I probably couldn't play a character like that because it
> wouldn't feel realistic to me. I, personally, would never throw money at my
> friends without any hope of return. Why would my characters?

((I guess he's to the point now where he has what he needs, so to him it
doesn't matter... if someone needs something, and he can help (and they
aren't "bad" or "evil") he will help... <CHEESE ALERT!> I guess
he's just
compassionate shadowrunner... who usually wishes to remain anonymous.))

<God I hope that made sense and I didn't contradict myself>

> >> He could sit around in his group's mansion, teaching fellow initiates the
> >> ways of the metaplanes, making far more money than he does shadowrunning

<snip>

> >((Because of what he does <explained above> he doesn't have time for
<snip>
> >he'se on the job... he doesn't hang out in his high lifestyle that often...))

> He wants to do good things, so educate people on what those good things are
> and better train them to do those things. One man (no matter his power
> level) can't do as much as 100,000 people can. Let alone millions.

((That's just no his style. He's a do-it-yourslelf man. Part of the
character, I guess...))

> Perhaps the largest problem I face in this part of the thread is that I
> always have a solid, defined goal for my characters and strive toward it
> (usually some sort of retirement outside of the shadows). Once I get there,
> I retire the character. Why? Because he got what he wanted. He may end up
> with a presence in the shadows still (keeping in touch with contacts) but
> he'll no longer be a runner. I just couldn't see playing a character
> forever as a runner.

((My char in this group originally started out money-oriented... as time
went by, that drifted off (as he got some money), and he became more of a
goal char (get out of the shadows)... early on, he met his long-time
girlfriend... one of his goals then became to one day start a family.
As the years went by, he began to realize that time, er- his life was
passing him by. (He's 35 in 2057). He's finally managed to eke his way
OUT of the shadows, and he's now 'retired'... from shadowrunning, NOT
being played. His goals have changed now. He's engaged now. He's still
just an absolute BLAST to play... its a very different feel now too... I
guess I'm the kind of person that will keep playing a really good (that
is well played and fun, not necessarily powerful) character...))

<I hope that made sense and I didn't drift off the question too much :) >

---Tom---
Message no. 9
From: PDL@****.dacom.co.kr
Subject: RE: MAge discussion (WAS :Metamagic)
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 09:05:04 PDT
---------------Original Message---------------
There's a team I'd kill to be a part of. Not only do you get paid for what
you do, but the mage pays you again! Why don't the runners that I know do
that? Hmm, could be that sanity thing, or maybe that they appreciate
everything they get as reward for a job well done.

The key word in my statement above was "realistic". There's dozens of
unrealistic runners out there. I just dump the runners that don't need to
do shadowruns, but still risks his life and livelihood for little or no
reward into that category. Go figure.

TopCat at the bottom...


----------End of Original Message----------
I agree with you to a point. If the character does not have an reason to run the shadows
he wouldn't. However, I see nothing wrong with the mage investing in the team. Without
the proper
equipment and training, the team is dead. I see this
investment as part of the teamwork. Does anyone else see the value of investing in a
team. Do you believe in team karma,
Topcat?

Patrick
Message no. 10
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: RE: MAge discussion (WAS :Metamagic)
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 00:22:29 -0500
>Do you believe in team karma, Topcat?
>
>Patrick

I believe in team karma pool only because GMs make me put my one point into
'em (which I still think is wrong). Karma awards are handed out in
different amounts to each player, between 1 and 8 depending on the
situations, and it's done that way because people deserve different amounts
of karma based on what they do. The team gets no karma aside from that
which it's members dump into the karma pool. The nastiest thing that ever
happened to a group was when TopCat retired along with two other characters.
What team karma pool?

TopCat didn't need team karma pool once in his days of me running him.
Vagabond needed it a few times, but the team gave it to me willingly because
I was the only one willing (and able) to work point. Brutal still hasn't
needed his own karma pool yet. Everyone in the team put in their one point
and that was it. Why? Because we didn't want to lose a ton of points
everytime a character left the group (by death or retirement) and we all had
decent pools anyway.

So I guess here's my answer, I believe in team karma pool because it's a
convention of the game and keeps the weak characters alive in times of need.
I do not believe in team karma, because awards should be on a per character
basis. If I pretty much single-handedly own a session through roleplaying
and dice rolling, then I should get teh lion-share of the karma. If I do
nothing but sit there the whole time, then I shouldn't get more than the
requisite point, no matter how well the run went for everyone else.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...

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