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Message no. 1
From: agibso11@***.edu.au (Abram Gibson-Dolby)
Subject: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:34:30 +1000 (EST)
My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
be appreciated.
Message no. 2
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:33:39 PST
>My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
>without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
>be appreciated.

Uhhh... No. But I suggest that you do something like subtrat 1/2 the
body index from Magic, and not just take off essence like the rules
given say. I think that is kinda stupid.

Oh, try having magic come back if Bioware is removed, but take awhile.
say, A month a magic point?


--
Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)
benjamin@*****.com (NOT whatever happenes to be in the From: line today)

Probably the world's only 14-year-old Weretiger PhysAd

no website

This message brought to you by That Looks Good, Inc.
Message no. 3
From: 96sp080 <96sp080@***.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 18:15:12 -0800 (PST)
On Wed, 20 Mar 1996, Benjamin wrote:

> >My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
> >without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
> >be appreciated.
>
> Uhhh... No. But I suggest that you do something like subtrat 1/2 the
> body index from Magic, and not just take off essence like the rules
> given say. I think that is kinda stupid.
>
> Oh, try having magic come back if Bioware is removed, but take awhile.
> say, A month a magic point?
>


Umm... I am very certain that it says bioware reduces the magic rating
just like essence does. I think it says that in shadowtech. In fact if it
doesn't say it is there (right in the front where it talks about bioware)
I'll eat my copy (and yes my copy is getting VERY dirty...)


just a question but if your not getting the bioware from shadowtech then
where are you getting it from? shadowtech is the only scourcebk that I
know of w/ bioware in it. anyway hope this helps...


Mike
Sig? who needs one? wait I do!!! help!!!!
Message no. 4
From: 96sp080 <96sp080@***.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 18:27:21 -0800 (PST)
On Wed, 20 Mar 1996, Benjamin wrote:

> >My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
> >without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
> >be appreciated.
>
> Uhhh... No. But I suggest that you do something like subtrat 1/2 the
> body index from Magic, and not just take off essence like the rules
> given say. I think that is kinda stupid.
>
> Oh, try having magic come back if Bioware is removed, but take awhile.
> say, A month a magic point?
>
>


um... ok having acually read what is going on here now I shall try again
<ahem>

the reason bioware and cyberware both affect the mages body in the same
way is because they are both replacing parts of the human body(if not
replacing then altering). The mages and phyads (as I see them) use there
bodies to chanel magic through in order to get effects they desire.
However once you start adding things that aren't "of your body" into your
system then you start messing up the flow of magic that goes through. I'm
trying to come up with a good compareison, and the only on I can think
of is that a mages body is a pipe that magic flows through much like
water can flow trough a pipe, however the more stuff you put in the pipe
the less room there is for the water.

however it seems that every time someone comes up with something like
that people seem to love tearing it apart rather than look at it and just
go on *sigh* some of you people on here scare me.... <grin>


Mike
"good and evil are way to messy, I prefer them or us."
Message no. 5
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:33:09 -0500 (EST)
At 12:34 PM 3/21/96 +1000, you wrote:
>My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
>without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
>be appreciated.

I don't understand, the same book with bioware [shadowtech] says that the
magically active lose essence and therefore suffer magic loss. My copy has
it on page 5 right after the introduction. Terry
Terry L. Amburgey
Associate Professor of Management
College of Business and Economics
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Phone: 606-257-7726
Fax: 606-257-3577
Message no. 6
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:34:29 -0500 (EST)
At 05:33 PM 3/20/96 PST, you wrote:
>>My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
>>without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
>>be appreciated.
>
>Uhhh... No. But I suggest that you do something like subtrat 1/2 the
>body index from Magic, and not just take off essence like the rules
>given say. I think that is kinda stupid.
>
>Oh, try having magic come back if Bioware is removed, but take awhile.
>say, A month a magic point?
>
>
>--
>Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)
>benjamin@*****.com (NOT whatever happenes to be in the From: line today)


Shadowtech, page 5. Terry
Terry L. Amburgey
Associate Professor of Management
College of Business and Economics
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Phone: 606-257-7726
Fax: 606-257-3577
Message no. 7
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 18:22:53 PST
>um... ok having acually read what is going on here now I shall try again
><ahem>
>
>the reason bioware and cyberware both affect the mages body in the same
>way is because they are both replacing parts of the human body(if not
>replacing then altering). The mages and phyads (as I see them) use there
>bodies to chanel magic through in order to get effects they desire.
>However once you start adding things that aren't "of your body" into your
>system then you start messing up the flow of magic that goes through. I'm
>trying to come up with a good compareison, and the only on I can think
>of is that a mages body is a pipe that magic flows through much like
>water can flow trough a pipe, however the more stuff you put in the pipe
>the less room there is for the water.
>

Yeah, but think of cyber as replacing the pipe w/a smaller one, and
bio as some hair getting stuck in. Even if the pipe is crammed with
hair, SOME water is goint to get through. And you can TAKE BIO OUT! It
goes away! Your body index does not stzy. Unlike Cyber.

>however it seems that every time someone comes up with something like
>that people seem to love tearing it apart rather than look at it and just
>go on *sigh* some of you people on here scare me.... <grin>



--
Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)
benjamin@*****.com (NOT whatever happenes to be in the From: line today)

Probably the world's only 14-year-old Weretiger PhysAd

no website

This message brought to you by "I don't have Shadowtech, but I've got
a pretty good idea of the way this stuff works" Productions.
Message no. 8
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:59:05 +0000 (GMT)
|
|>My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
|>without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
|>be appreciated.
|
|Uhhh... No. But I suggest that you do something like subtrat 1/2 the
|body index from Magic, and not just take off essence like the rules
|given say. I think that is kinda stupid.
|
|Oh, try having magic come back if Bioware is removed, but take awhile.
|say, A month a magic point?

It *does* say in Shadowtech that in the case of people with a Magic rating,
**BIOWARE COSTS ESSENCE**. Check it out, it's there, so yes, bioware does
reduce your magic rating.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:57:18 +0200 (EET)
On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Abram Gibson-Dolby wrote:

> My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
> without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
> be appreciated.
>
I guess you need to go out and spend your hard-earned dough on
Shadowtech... :-)

---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
---------------------------------------------
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GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t---
X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 10
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:28:54 -0600
>My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
>without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
>be appreciated.
>
Shadowtech sez that bioware causes essence loss in magically active people.
Essence loss=magic loos.
Message no. 11
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 13:43:27 +0000 (GMT)
|
|>My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
|>without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
|>be appreciated.
|>
|Shadowtech sez that bioware causes essence loss in magically active people.
|Essence loss=magic loos.
|

Essence loss=Magic loos?
Hmmmm.... Magic toilets. I wonder what they'd do.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:42:33 -0600
>>um... ok having acually read what is going on here now I shall try again
>><ahem>
>>
>>the reason bioware and cyberware both affect the mages body in the same
>>way is because they are both replacing parts of the human body(if not
>>replacing then altering). The mages and phyads (as I see them) use there
>>bodies to chanel magic through in order to get effects they desire.
>>However once you start adding things that aren't "of your body" into
your
>>system then you start messing up the flow of magic that goes through. I'm
>>trying to come up with a good compareison, and the only on I can think
>>of is that a mages body is a pipe that magic flows through much like
>>water can flow trough a pipe, however the more stuff you put in the pipe
>>the less room there is for the water.
>>
>
>Yeah, but think of cyber as replacing the pipe w/a smaller one, and
>bio as some hair getting stuck in. Even if the pipe is crammed with
>hair, SOME water is goint to get through. And you can TAKE BIO OUT! It
>goes away! Your body index does not stzy. Unlike Cyber.
Sometime's analogys aren't perfect. So look at it this way:

Everyone has an "astral template" This is what magically active people see
when they are in astral space. Changes or losses to it can be seen (there's
even a skill for reading the auras) and essence removes chunks of it,
replacing it with things that aren't part of the original whole. For most
people, this astral template isn't a big deal, they have some cyberware,
they deal with it. However, some people get a lot of cyberware, and since
their body gets so unaligned with their "true" self, the astral template,
that it eventually isn't anything like the current body, and dissipates,
disappears, whatever. This is why you die with a lot of cyberware.
Cybermancy ties this template to the body so that no matter who screwed up
the body is, that astral template is still there. Well, with the magically
active, things get a bit tougher. They are very attuned to their astral
self, since they draw all of their power from astral space, and focus it
into the real world throught their physical self. Well, cyberware causes
the astral template to get a little out of whack, so the magic isn't as
strong anymore. Thats pretty much agreed on. But then there's bioware.
While still flesh, and it can be mostly cloned, it's not part of the
original, "true", body. The bioware is installed, and the astral template,
which is highly attuned to the physical body, notices that the body has
changed, and this causes the same effect as cyberware, and thus, a loss of
magic. That's a rather hermetic view of it, but a totem might say that the
person "smelled wrong" or something. (can you imagine what Dog would say if
one of his shamans had lost an arm, got a new one from a
not-quite-AMA-approved street doc, and that arm had once belonged to someone
else?) That, IMO, is why boiware causes essence loss, and in my game,
always will.
Message no. 13
From: "'Spaceman' WD Lee" <galahad@*.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:13:15 -0800 (PST)
On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Abram Gibson-Dolby wrote:

> My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
> without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
> be appreciated.

Shadowtech, p. 5
"As physical integrity is even more crucial for the
magically active, these characters must spend Essence _and_ add to their
Body Index when selecting Bioware......The Essence cost for bioware is
equal to the Body Index"

Hope that helps

The Spaceman |Remember, Abraham Lincoln didn't die
spaced@*.washington.edu |in vain, he died in Washington, D.C.
galahad@*.washington.edu | -Firesign Theatre
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced
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PS+ PE Y+ PGP t 5+ X+ R+ tv b+++ DI+ D+ G++ e h r z+
MPA/SH/TA S G Q+ 666 y W C++ N+ PEC+++ D1
Message no. 14
From: "Sedah Drol" <CCRODRIG@****.indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:32:25 EST
> My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
> without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
> be appreciated.
No, bioware causes magic loss just like essence. Some people on the
list say that it also uses up essence. Check out Shadowtech around
page 5 (i believe) for further info.
---Sedah Drol
Message no. 15
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 96 07:25:12 +1030
>Essence loss=Magic loos?
>Hmmmm.... Magic toilets. I wonder what they'd do.....

It's a new breakthrough for burnt-out mages... they've determined that
the actual reason why they can't cast spells right IS NOT this mystical
"Essence loss", but a bad case of magical constipation.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realizedthat a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent infinding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 16
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 17:02:17 -0600
>My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
>without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
>be appreciated.

Heheheheh, the topic-grenade has gone off once again ;)

As is probably obvious by now, bioware does (by rules in Shadowtech pg. 5)
cost magically active characters essence. Many people choose to ignore or
modify this rule (usually those who declare things like "Munch or Die!") so
that they can cram more toys into themselves without paying the price. In
our campaigns, we've always run that part strictly by the rules.


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 17
From: Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 96 11:36:21 EST
Abram Gibson-Dolby writes:
>
> My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
> without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
> be appreciated.

I beleive the Shadowbook states that bioware subtracts from a mages
Essence. If this is true, then the mages (and adepts) would lose points
from their magic rating.

Pete
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 96 11:44:11 EST
TopCat writes:
>
> >My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
> >without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
> >be appreciated.
>
> Heheheheh, the topic-grenade has gone off once again ;)
>
> As is probably obvious by now, bioware does (by rules in Shadowtech pg. 5)
> cost magically active characters essence. Many people choose to ignore or
> modify this rule (usually those who declare things like "Munch or Die!") so
> that they can cram more toys into themselves without paying the price. In
> our campaigns, we've always run that part strictly by the rules.
A small modification to the rule that my group uses, is that bioware will
take away from a magic rating, but won't affect your essence points. You
just figure out how much essence you would lose, and that indicates how
much magic rating you lose.

Pete
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 19
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:20:50 +0100
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 16:20:45 +0100 (MET)

>>My players want to have adepts and mages with bioware. Can they do so
>>without magic loss. No rules I have mention this. Any comments would
>>be appreciated.
>
>Heheheheh, the topic-grenade has gone off once again ;)

*grin* Yep. This is a very nice topic. Nearly as good as the
"Grounding through Quickenings" discussion... ;-)

>As is probably obvious by now, bioware does (by rules in Shadowtech pg. 5)
>cost magically active characters essence. Many people choose to ignore or
>modify this rule (usually those who declare things like "Munch or Die!") so
>that they can cram more toys into themselves without paying the price. In
>our campaigns, we've always run that part strictly by the rules.

My experience was that there are some different lines of thought:

1.) It says it costs essence and thats it (mainly used by people who
don't want to think about whether something makes sense or not - they
just go by the book)

2.) It means it costs magic AS IF it costs essence

3.) It doesn't cost anything (this is the munchkinous approach, but if
it works for them it's fine with me)

4.) It says 1 or 2 but I don't care for it that much. It HAS to cost
Magic not to make Mages overpowered but losing essence would be
ridiculous and making absolutely no sense... this is the point of view
I prefer, but I think we shouldn't discuss this again. ;-)

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 20
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:08:04 -0700 (MST)
Georg Greve wrote:
|
|>Heheheheh, the topic-grenade has gone off once again ;)
|
|*grin* Yep. This is a very nice topic. Nearly as good as the
|"Grounding through Quickenings" discussion... ;-)

Mrf Imph Bkgilr Monfthprr <he mumbles his opinion of Grounding from
within his flame retardent suit> ;)

|My experience was that there are some different lines of thought:
|
|1.) It says it costs essence and thats it (mainly used by people who
|don't want to think about whether something makes sense or not - they
|just go by the book)
|
|2.) It means it costs magic AS IF it costs essence
|
|3.) It doesn't cost anything (this is the munchkinous approach, but if
|it works for them it's fine with me)
|
|4.) It says 1 or 2 but I don't care for it that much. It HAS to cost
|Magic not to make Mages overpowered but losing essence would be
|ridiculous and making absolutely no sense... this is the point of view
|I prefer, but I think we shouldn't discuss this again. ;-)

I go with number 2, if for no other reason than that it works best
for my campaign.

With this one, as well as Grounding, I suggest that you pick the
option that works best for your game. And if in the future you find
that the decision you made isn't working, please feel free to change
your decision. There, thats it, I had my say and I am outa here :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"Wanted: All Kathey Lee Gifford albums. Including her "Greatest
Hits" album and her Christmas album. Contact the Possum Lodge Skeet
Shooting Club."
~~~~~~~~~~www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~~~~
Message no. 21
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:45:14 -0500 (EST)
Georg wrote:
>
>*grin* Yep. This is a very nice topic. Nearly as good as the
>"Grounding through Quickenings" discussion... ;-)

Since it's died down let me re-kindle it :) Corporate Security Handbook,
page 36. The matrix annotation by Lady Sally notes that quickened light
spells used for magical security have a downside: "The disadvantage is, an
intruder can ground through the spells". Heh Heh.

[snip]
>My experience was that there are some different lines of thought:
>
>1.) It says it costs essence and thats it (mainly used by people who
>don't want to think about whether something makes sense or not - they
>just go by the book)
[snip]

As a 'by-the-book' type I gotta respond to this :) A certain degree of
internal consistency makes a difference between a mediocre game system and a
good one; no argument there. On the other hand, we're talking about a
FANTASY/science fiction rpg here; There are elves/trolls/orks/dwarves
running around, a great dragon is running for president, magic users on
[seemingly] every street corner and somebody is going to push a 'does it
make sense' line?!?! Heh heh. Terry

Terry L. Amburgey
Associate Professor of Management
College of Business and Economics
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Phone: 606-257-7726
Fax: 606-257-3577
Message no. 22
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 00:08:37 +0100
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 00:08:33 +0100 (MET)

Terry wrote:

> Since it's died down let me re-kindle it :) Corporate Security Handbook,

O.K. - you wanted it this way - you should know I am always in the
mood for a good argument. ;-)

> page 36. The matrix annotation by Lady Sally notes that quickened light
> spells used for magical security have a downside: "The disadvantage is, an
> intruder can ground through the spells". Heh Heh.

Yeah. And the matrix annotations in other sourcebooks say other
ridiculous things, too. They are meant as interesting points of view -
not as rules. Grounding through Quicknening is casting spells at
spells - if you allow that in your game: fine. We don't.

> As a 'by-the-book' type I gotta respond to this :) A certain degree of
> internal consistency makes a difference between a mediocre game system and a
> good one; no argument there. On the other hand, we're talking about a
> FANTASY/science fiction rpg here; There are elves/trolls/orks/dwarves
> running around, a great dragon is running for president, magic users on
> [seemingly] every street corner and somebody is going to push a 'does it
> make sense' line?!?! Heh heh. Terry

It makes no sense at all because even the DNA-matching (cultured)
Bioware costs essence if you were right. This means Bioware is more
intrusive than Cyberware - this is ridiculous if you consider
everything that was said about how intrusive Cyberware is...

Another point is: Cultured Bioware is made out of your own DNA - some
people keep claiming it costs essence because it was artificially
grown. So if your mage loses an arm, for instance, he loses essence if
he gets a cloned replacement - the only way NOT to lose essence would
be to live without it ! These re-grown parts are artificially grown as
well or did you think they raise a clone of you, wait 18 years and
then tear its arm off only to attach it to you ?

Later...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 23
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 00:01:18 -0500
At 00:08 3/23/96 +0100, Georg wrote:

>Another point is: Cultured Bioware is made out of your own DNA - some
>people keep claiming it costs essence because it was artificially
>grown. So if your mage loses an arm, for instance, he loses essence if
>he gets a cloned replacement - the only way NOT to lose essence would
>be to live without it ! These re-grown parts are artificially grown as
>well or did you think they raise a clone of you, wait 18 years and
>then tear its arm off only to attach it to you ?
>

WQrong, A cloned arm is just that. A clone of your arm. Bioware whether
cultured or not is not the same organ that you were born with. A such is
differs from the aura and impededs the mage's ability to cast spells.

BLAIR
Message no. 24
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 10:54:45 +0100
Georg Greve said on 22 Mar 96...

> My experience was that there are some different lines of thought:
>
> 1.) It says it costs essence and thats it (mainly used by people who
> don't want to think about whether something makes sense or not - they
> just go by the book)

Right. This is the official FASA rule, which I think was made up in about
two seconds when somebody noticed, just before the book would go to the
printers', that magicians could get bioware and not suffer any negative
effects from it.

> 2.) It means it costs magic AS IF it costs essence

Which is what most people I know, me included, use. IMHO it just makes
more sense...

> 3.) It doesn't cost anything (this is the munchkinous approach, but if
> it works for them it's fine with me)

I don't think there's many SR players applying this rule, but OK it's a
possibility... As you said, this reeks of munchkinism.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Ceci ne pas une signature
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 25
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 08:58:14 -0500
On Mar 23, 1996 00:01:18, '"A. Blair Blackwell"
<ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>' wrote:


>At 00:08 3/23/96 +0100, Georg wrote:
>
>>Another point is: Cultured Bioware is made out of your own DNA - some
>>people keep claiming it costs essence because it was artificially
>>grown. So if your mage loses an arm, for instance, he loses essence if
>>he gets a cloned replacement - the only way NOT to lose essence would
>>be to live without it ! These re-grown parts are artificially grown as
>>well or did you think they raise a clone of you, wait 18 years and
>>then tear its arm off only to attach it to you ?
>>
>
>WQrong, A cloned arm is just that. A clone of your arm. Bioware whether
>cultured or not is not the same organ that you were born with. A such is
>differs from the aura and impededs the mage's ability to cast spells.
>
>BLAIR

Exactly, it interferes with the relationship of your physical and astral
templates. Your astral template is what you "are naturally", when you
change your physical template (your body), you distance yourself from the
astral one (loss of essence), for a magic-user, that means they are
farther from their power (loss of Magic).

Phew, hope I got that right.

--
-Lord Tallion <Tal Kedem>
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M--
V PS+ PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/2161/ (Under Construction, but aren't they
all?)
- tsbtal@***.pipeline.com - tkedem@********.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu -
-tallion@******.net -
"Cthulhu in `96 - Why settle for a lesser evil?"
Message no. 26
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:45:30 +0100
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:45:26 +0100 (MET)

> WQrong, A cloned arm is just that. A clone of your arm. Bioware whether
> cultured or not is not the same organ that you were born with. A such is
> differs from the aura and impededs the mage's ability to cast spells.

Sorry, but you should think about it twice.

Cultured Bioware AND regrown parts of your body BOTH:

- match your DNA

- were artificially grown

- give you a kind of functionality you didn't have before !

Your essence doesn't change when you lose an arm - this means it is
the NATURAL state for your body now (like "this was my fate and hence
I have to accept it - it is my unmodified state now"). If you attach a
regrown arm to it it is a NEW arm without any relation to your body
and it gives you extra functionality (the function of a second arm,
your natural state was having one arm after losing the other -
remember ?). So if you say Bioware costs essence, replacement parts to
your body cost essence as well.

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 27
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:46:42 +0100
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:46:37 +0100 (MET)

>>WQrong, A cloned arm is just that. A clone of your arm. Bioware whether
>>cultured or not is not the same organ that you were born with. A such is
>>differs from the aura and impededs the mage's ability to cast spells.
>>
>>BLAIR
>
>Exactly, it interferes with the relationship of your physical and astral
>templates. Your astral template is what you "are naturally", when you
>change your physical template (your body), you distance yourself from the
>astral one (loss of essence), for a magic-user, that means they are
>farther from their power (loss of Magic).

Look at my other posting. You weren't born with a cloned arm as well
(at least I wasn't ;-) )... if you take your own line of thought
seriously EVERY "artificial" thing about your body makes you lose
essence, as well. Hence: eye surgery costs essence (wear contact
lenses, guys), tattoing or piercing costs essence and getting cloned
replacement part costs LOTS of essence...

bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 28
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:54:48 +0100
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:54:45 +0100 (MET)

Gurth wrote:

> > 1.) It says it costs essence and thats it (mainly used by people who
> > don't want to think about whether something makes sense or not - they
> > just go by the book)
> Right. This is the official FASA rule, which I think was made up in about
> two seconds when somebody noticed, just before the book would go to the
> printers', that magicians could get bioware and not suffer any negative
> effects from it.

Yeah. That is the way I see it, too. They didn't really think about
it... although a lot of people keep arguing:

It says FIRST you lose as much essence as you lose body
and THEN it says you don't lose body at all, it is only an
indicator. So A(essence loss)=B(body loss) and B="no real loss, only
indicator" hence A="no real loss, only indicator".
So they say: It is the official FASA rule that you don't lose essence !

(this was initially my 2nd approach - the "I'm not going to let my
roleplay suffer from some half-developed rule, I just change them to
what makes sense" approach was number 4...)

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 29
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:55:03 -0500
On Mar 23, 1996 15:54:48, 'Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>' wrote:


>Yeah. That is the way I see it, too. They didn't really think about
>it... although a lot of people keep arguing:
>
>It says FIRST you lose as much essence as you lose body
>and THEN it says you don't lose body at all, it is only an
>indicator. So A(essence loss)=B(body loss) and B="no real loss, only
>indicator" hence A="no real loss, only indicator".
>So they say: It is the official FASA rule that you don't lose essence !
>
>(this was initially my 2nd approach - the "I'm not going to let my
>roleplay suffer from some half-developed rule, I just change them to
>what makes sense" approach was number 4...)
>
>Bye...
> Georg

WHOAH!! It dosen't say you lose essence per BODY lost, but you lose the
amount of essense your Body INDEX is, so if you get 4.2 BI worth of
Bioware, and you are magically active, you lose 4.2 essence. It says it
right there, as far as mechanics, it is not very vague. As far as
"real-world" explanation, it isn't so difficult to explain (Templates,
physical/astral)

--
-Lord Tallion <Tal Kedem>
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M--
V PS+ PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/2161/ (Under Construction, but aren't they
all?)
- tsbtal@***.pipeline.com - tkedem@********.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu -
-tallion@******.net -
"Cthulhu in `96 - Why settle for a lesser evil?"
Message no. 30
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:01:45 GMT
In message <199603222308.AAA00438@*******.hanse.de> Georg Greve writes:
> It makes no sense at all because even the DNA-matching (cultured)
> Bioware costs essence if you were right. This means Bioware is more
> intrusive than Cyberware - this is ridiculous if you consider
> everything that was said about how intrusive Cyberware is...
>
> Another point is: Cultured Bioware is made out of your own DNA - some
> people keep claiming it costs essence because it was artificially
> grown. So if your mage loses an arm, for instance, he loses essence if
> he gets a cloned replacement - the only way NOT to lose essence would
> be to live without it ! These re-grown parts are artificially grown as
> well or did you think they raise a clone of you, wait 18 years and
> then tear its arm off only to attach it to you ?

The point is that bioware does things that your own body doesn't, and
that's what costs the essence. If it's an artificially-grown, exact copy
of your arm, it does exactly the same things the original flesh arm
did. If you want it to have bulletproof skin, extra-flexible joints,
stronger muscles, whatever, you have to change its structure away from
the exact copy of yours: and it's those changes that cost you Magic Rating.

Culturing it means the changes are less intrusive: but they're still changes.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 31
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.com>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:13:20 -0800 (PST)
On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, Georg Greve wrote:

> Look at my other posting. You weren't born with a cloned arm as well
> (at least I wasn't ;-) )... if you take your own line of thought
> seriously EVERY "artificial" thing about your body makes you lose
> essence, as well. Hence: eye surgery costs essence (wear contact
> lenses, guys), tattoing or piercing costs essence and getting cloned
> replacement part costs LOTS of essence...

Anything which adds something to your Aural template which does not match
you aural template costs magic or essence. A cloned arm is simply a
duplicate of your original arm, and would have no discernible effect.

A type O clonal part, however...costs one magic (the cost is revoked if
the part is removed).

Bioware is heavily (chemically and genetically) modified tissue... Look
what happens if you overuse stimpatches, or if medical aid isn't careful
enough; you lose magic. With what you do to bioware to make it do what it
does, is it surprising that this also costs magic?

Deirdre M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | Marizhavashti Kali
"Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult."
"Whose cult
is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?"
"Hubbard's dead,
baby. Hubbard's dead." -Meme-
Message no. 32
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:45:56 +0000 (GMT)
|
|At 00:08 3/23/96 +0100, Georg wrote:
|
|>Another point is: Cultured Bioware is made out of your own DNA - some
|>people keep claiming it costs essence because it was artificially
|>grown. So if your mage loses an arm, for instance, he loses essence if
|>he gets a cloned replacement - the only way NOT to lose essence would
|>be to live without it ! These re-grown parts are artificially grown as
|>well or did you think they raise a clone of you, wait 18 years and
|>then tear its arm off only to attach it to you ?
|>
|
|WQrong, A cloned arm is just that. A clone of your arm. Bioware whether
|cultured or not is not the same organ that you were born with. A such is
|differs from the aura and impededs the mage's ability to cast spells.

Cloned organs do *not* cost essence unless they are force-grown. The DNA
Match is exact, and the body (and essence) are not affected.
(even though a replacement cloned arm is bioware, it costs no essence/body
rating)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 33
From: shadow@**.kensco.net (The Shadowdancer)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:59:35 GMT
>From out of the Shadows, Georg Greve whispered:


>Sorry, but you should think about it twice.
>
>Cultured Bioware AND regrown parts of your body BOTH:
>
>- match your DNA
>
True

>- were artificially grown
>
True

>- give you a kind of functionality you didn't have before !
>
False.

Reason: If you loose an arm, have it vat grown (cloned) then have it
reattached, then you are gaining the same functionality of the arm as
it had before you lost it. You are in effect "regenerating" your arm.
Bioware, whether cultered or not, is not the same thing. You are
having a body part grown that is better then what nature gave you.
Even with exact DNA matches, the part is different then the one you
had. Example: We all know what our adreanal glands do. You get
really fragged on a run, and both of you adreanal glands are
unsalvageable. You get some clonal parts grown, and bingo you have
your adreanal glands back. An exact replica of the ones you lost.
Then you decide to get an adreanal pump. You have the DNA matches and
get one grown. BUT the human body does not have anything like the
adreanal pump. Your body does not have an organ that collects and
stores adreanaline (sp), concentrates it, then releases it all when
you need it. It differs from your aural template.

>Your essence doesn't change when you lose an arm - this means it is
>the NATURAL state for your body now (like "this was my fate and hence
>I have to accept it - it is my unmodified state now").
It is not your natural state. While losing an arm does not cause
essance loss, your aural template remembers the arm. That is why you
would get the phantom pains and such. If you get another arm, cloned
for you, attached the aura says " Hey I have my arm back!!" and thats
it. Cyber and Bio places parts and machines in the body that the aura
never had drawn into the blueprints.

Think of this analogy: You are constructing a house. You have the
blueprints for the house right in front of you. After the house is
finished, a freak accident demolishes the bay window you had
installed. So you replace it. Still matches the blueprints. But
then someone decides that too much UV is coming into the house. So
they replace the standard windows with glass that blocks UV. You look
and realize that the new windows do not match the blueprints. But
they are functional, so you let it slide. After a while of doing
this, the house soon becomes totally unlike your blueprints.
Disgruntled that someone decided your design was not good enough, you
leave in a huff.

Now this does raise one interesting question: Can the aural template
be changed to accomodate Cyber and Bio? Will children born to parents
with cyber and bio have modifications to their aual templates that
would allow certain mods without loosing essence? Darwin springs to
mind...


-------------------------------------------------------------
Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever God they
follow will smile upon them.
I waltz through the Shadows with my Gods, and I lead!!
(Me)

-The Shadowdancer (shadow@**.kensco.net)
Http://www.kensco.net/~shadow/
Message no. 34
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:25:20 -0500
On Sat, 23 Mar 1996 Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de> wrote:
> Sorry, but you should think about it twice.
>
> Cultured Bioware AND regrown parts of your body BOTH:
>
> - - match your DNA

Sorry, but it *doesn't* match your DNA. If it matched exactly, it would
be a clone. They take your DNA and tweak it to grow a modified version.
It matched when they started, but not when they're done.

--Craig
Message no. 35
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:31:54 +0000 (GMT)
|
|
|
|On Sat, 23 Mar 1996 Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de> wrote:
|> Sorry, but you should think about it twice.
|>
|> Cultured Bioware AND regrown parts of your body BOTH:
|>
|> - - match your DNA
|
|Sorry, but it *doesn't* match your DNA. If it matched exactly, it would
|be a clone. They take your DNA and tweak it to grow a modified version.
|It matched when they started, but not when they're done.
|

Bioware, yes. Regrown parts *are* an exact DNA match though. Or at least,
the most expensive ones are.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 36
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:23:21 PST
>The point is that bioware does things that your own body doesn't, and
>that's what costs the essence. If it's an artificially-grown, exact copy

Then why don't mundanes lose essence??
Message no. 37
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:24:42 PST
>does, is it surprising that this also costs magic?
No, but that you lose essence IS.
Message no. 38
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:53:53 +0100
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:53:48 +0100 (MET)

> >- give you a kind of functionality you didn't have before !
> >
> False.

Sorry. If you had read my posting carefully you would have seen how
obsolete your posting was. If you define a "complete human magician"
who is "in harmony" with himself and all that stuff (-> essence 6) as
a one-armed human being, a second arm IS extra functionality. So
either you lose essence for losing an arm OR you lose essence for
getting the replacement arm...

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 39
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:02:50 GMT
In message <199603231345.OAA02519@*******.hanse.de> Georg Greve writes:
> Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:45:26 +0100 (MET)
> Sorry, but you should think about it twice.
>
> Cultured Bioware AND regrown parts of your body BOTH:
> - match your DNA

No, bioware is close enough to your DNA to not be attacked by your own
immune system. Cultured bioware is *based* on your DNA, which is then
altered to produce the desired result. It's less intrusive than normal
bioware because it starts from a closer point.

But unless you can exhale Neurostun gas at the moment, a toxin exhaler
does not "match your DNA".

> - were artificially grown

What about someone else's arm or body organ? Replacements don't have to
be vatgrown. That arm isn't artificially grown, it just didn't grow on
you! Okay, if it's specifically vatgrown... but replacements don't
*have* to be.

> - give you a kind of functionality you didn't have before !

Yes you did, in the case of the arm. You had the arm, then you lost it,
then you got it back. Read some of FASA's burbles about "astral template"
for this.

> Your essence doesn't change when you lose an arm - this means it is
> the NATURAL state for your body now (like "this was my fate and hence
> I have to accept it - it is my unmodified state now"). If you attach a
> regrown arm to it it is a NEW arm without any relation to your body
> and it gives you extra functionality (the function of a second arm,
> your natural state was having one arm after losing the other -
> remember ?).

You may be reading a little too much into this. Let's say you have someone
with three cyberlimbs (right arm, both legs) and enough headware to make
up a total of 5.9 Essence cost. He loses his left (biological) arm.

Does he die? After all, if you lost Essence for losing a limb, he should
be below zero Essence. So Essence costs for wounds (especially limb/organ
loss) get very complex, because you end up working out how much of each
cyber component is in each location. (It's got muscle replacement, wired-2,
spurs and a smartgun link! There's hardly any arm left! It should only be
about 0.2 Essence to lose that!)

A biological replacement, though, just restores the status quo. His body
was quite happy with an unmodified flesh arm before: if he survives the
surgery, his body goes back to the previous comfortable status.

> So if you say Bioware costs essence, replacement parts to
> your body cost essence as well.

By that argument, cyberware shouldn't cost Essence either... Bioware should
certainly have an effect, especially on magicians, or it becomes massively
unbalancing. Our house rule fix is simply to subtract the total of Essence
lost and the Body Cost of installed bioware from the magician's Magic Rating.
That keeps things in check, and lets players balance their cyber/bioware
against their Magic Loss. The Essence-loss for bioware seemed stupid to us
as well, but simply ignoring it was even more unbalancing when we tried it:
magicians and physads became far too powerful relative to everyone else.

But bioware, even cultured bioware, is different enough from your own tissue
to require some sort of penalty to those PCs depending on astral integrity.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 40
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:01:32 +0100
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:01:29 +0100 (MET)

> The point is that bioware does things that your own body doesn't, and
> that's what costs the essence. If it's an artificially-grown, exact copy
> of your arm, it does exactly the same things the original flesh arm
> did. If you want it to have bulletproof skin, extra-flexible joints,
> stronger muscles, whatever, you have to change its structure away from
> the exact copy of yours: and it's those changes that cost you Magic Rating.

Even a second arm can be considered "extra functionality" if you
define the natural/usual state a one-armed man.

Of course I agree that bioware is a bit different and hence should
cost you magic rating - but no essence, that is just plain silly
considering how close bioware is to the process of just replacing
something be regrown parts. This was what I was trying to tell all the
time but noone seemed to be capable of understanding it... *sigh*

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
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| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 41
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:57:17 +0100
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:57:14 +0100 (MET)

> Bioware is heavily (chemically and genetically) modified tissue... Look
> what happens if you overuse stimpatches, or if medical aid isn't careful
> enough; you lose magic. With what you do to bioware to make it do what it
> does, is it surprising that this also costs magic?

Please read my postings carefully. I never said bioware shouldn't cost
magic. All I said was it doesn't cost essence - which is perfectly
fine if I take a look at your argumentation: You don't lose essence
from using stim patches, do you ?

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 42
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:10:27 +0100
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:10:24 +0100 (MET)

> WHOAH!! It dosen't say you lose essence per BODY lost, but you lose the
> amount of essense your Body INDEX is, so if you get 4.2 BI worth of
> Bioware, and you are magically active, you lose 4.2 essence. It says it
> right there, as far as mechanics, it is not very vague. As far as
> "real-world" explanation, it isn't so difficult to explain (Templates,
> physical/astral)

O.K. on page 5 it says LITERALLY:

"The Essence cost for bioware is equal to the Body Cost."

So how much Body does your Sam LOSE when acquiring bioware ?

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 43
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:06:38 +0100
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:06:35 +0100 (MET)

> Cloned organs do *not* cost essence unless they are force-grown. The DNA
> Match is exact, and the body (and essence) are not affected.
> (even though a replacement cloned arm is bioware, it costs no essence/body
> rating)

Ah ! Finally someone realized that regrown parts are a kind of
bioware as well. Of course I don't really want it to cost essence - I
don't want to cost ANY bioware essence, because it is so close to this
process that doesn't cost essence or adds to the body index. The
"enhancing" bioware should cost magic (more due to psychological
reasons, I think, but the result is the same) but essence loss is just
plain stupid.

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 44
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 96 10:31:56 +1030
>Grounding through Quicknening is casting spells at
>spells - if you allow that in your game: fine. We don't.

Then what is grouding through a spell lock?
With all due respect... grounding through a quickened spell is merely
using the spell to connect to whatever the physical component (usually
the target of the quickened spell) is. Provided you rule that Quickenings
provided the necessary astral connection, of course.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 45
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 96 10:31:34 +1030
>Another point is: Cultured Bioware is made out of your own DNA - some
>people keep claiming it costs essence because it was artificially
>grown. So if your mage loses an arm, for instance, he loses essence if
>he gets a cloned replacement - the only way NOT to lose essence would
>be to live without it ! These re-grown parts are artificially grown as
>well or did you think they raise a clone of you, wait 18 years and
>then tear its arm off only to attach it to you ?

It costs Essence because it doesn't match your aural template. As for
being more invasive than cyberware: if you get a metal plate shoved into
you, your body doesn't do too much to try and expel it. If you get a new
organ put into you, EVEN IF IT COMES FROM YOUR OWN DNA, your body can and
usually will do something to expel it. This has been shown with skin
grafts, that your body's defence systems still want to fight it for a
while.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 46
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 17:31:34 PST
>It costs Essence because it doesn't match your aural template. As for
>being more invasive than cyberware: if you get a metal plate shoved into
>you, your body doesn't do too much to try and expel it. If you get a new
>organ put into you, EVEN IF IT COMES FROM YOUR OWN DNA, your body can and
>usually will do something to expel it. This has been shown with skin
>grafts, that your body's defence systems still want to fight it for a
>while.

THEN WHY DOES IT ONLY DO THIS TO THE MAGICALLY ACTIVE???? Come ON!


--
Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)
benjamin@*****.com (NOT whatever happenes to be in the From: line today)

Probably the world's only 14-year-old Weretiger PhysAd

no website

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-Weird Al
Message no. 47
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:46:16 -0500
On Mar 23, 1996 23:10:27, 'Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>' wrote:


>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:10:24 +0100 (MET)
>
>> WHOAH!! It dosen't say you lose essence per BODY lost, but you lose the
>> amount of essense your Body INDEX is, so if you get 4.2 BI worth of
>> Bioware, and you are magically active, you lose 4.2 essence. It says it

>> right there, as far as mechanics, it is not very vague. As far as
>> "real-world" explanation, it isn't so difficult to explain (Templates,
>> physical/astral)
>
>O.K. on page 5 it says LITERALLY:
>
>"The Essence cost for bioware is equal to the Body Cost."
>
>So how much Body does your Sam LOSE when acquiring bioware ?
>
>Bye...
> Georg

Sigh, this is just a big misunderstanding (heaped with a bit of bad
writing, it means (to the best of my knowledge) Body [index] cost.

--
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Message no. 48
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 21:12:58 -0500
On Sat, 23 Mar 1996 Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com> wrote:

> >It costs Essence because it doesn't match your aural template. As for
[...]
> THEN WHY DOES IT ONLY DO THIS TO THE MAGICALLY ACTIVE???? Come ON!

Because magically active characters are more sensitve to changes to the
aural template? I know, it's a lot of hand waving, but it's better than
just saying "Game Balance".

--Craig
Message no. 49
From: dherr@********.net (David Herr)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 23:00:07 EST
On Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:45:30 +0100 you wrote:

>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:45:26 +0100 (MET)
>
>> WQrong, A cloned arm is just that. A clone of your arm. Bioware whether
>> cultured or not is not the same organ that you were born with. A such is
>> differs from the aura and impededs the mage's ability to cast spells.
>
>Sorry, but you should think about it twice.
>
>Cultured Bioware AND regrown parts of your body BOTH:
>
>- match your DNA
>
>- were artificially grown
>
>- give you a kind of functionality you didn't have before !
>
>Your essence doesn't change when you lose an arm - this means it is
>the NATURAL state for your body now (like "this was my fate and hence
>I have to accept it - it is my unmodified state now"). If you attach a
>regrown arm to it it is a NEW arm without any relation to your body
>and it gives you extra functionality (the function of a second arm,
>your natural state was having one arm after losing the other -
>remember ?). So if you say Bioware costs essence, replacement parts to
>your body cost essence as well.
>
>Bye...
> Georg
>
Yeah, but what about this argument, when my arm was blown away that
was (past tense) my natural state, now that I have a second arm again
it must be fate, fate that the technology was invented, fate that my
original arm was blown away, fate that I had the money for a new arm,
fate that I didn't have anything better to spend said money on. You
see how this can go. I think that your logic about "fate"
representing the natural state of your body is flawed. The reason
that it costs essence is simple, yes its part of your body, and it
would (some other tense, that I can't remember now) match your astral
template if you had absolutly no experiances, but since you have
experiances your astral template and the template with your new arm
included don't match.

This is getting dangerously close to Earthdawn where you can "rename"
yourself and erase any experiances from your astral template, this
could be used as a major munch tool 'cause shadowrun doesn't have
threads yet (these are the balancing factor to this metod of "erasing
essance loss" in earthdawn.


_________________________________________________________________________
|I have the right to offend whomever |http://www.together.net/~dherr/sams2.html |
|I want just as they have the right to |Come and visit sams web, soon to undergo |
|be offended, or offend me right back. |major reconstruction |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 50
From: shadow@**.kensco.net (The Shadowdancer)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 08:29:14 GMT
>From out of the Shadows, Georg Greve whispered:

>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:53:48 +0100 (MET)
>
>> >- give you a kind of functionality you didn't have before !
>> >
>> False.
>
>Sorry. If you had read my posting carefully you would have seen how
>obsolete your posting was. If you define a "complete human magician"
>who is "in harmony" with himself and all that stuff (-> essence 6) as
>a one-armed human being, a second arm IS extra functionality. So
>either you lose essence for losing an arm OR you lose essence for
>getting the replacement arm...
>

I did read your post. I do not recall it stating that the magician in
question was born that way. If he/she was, then you have a point in
an arm causing essence. If he/she just lost it, then your claims have
no validity.

Bye..
SD


--------------------------------------
I have looked into the eyes of God,
and I have beheld the image of The Devil.
(Sheehys)

-The Shadowdancer (shadow@**.kensco.net)
http://www.kensco.net/~shadow/
Message no. 51
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 11:54:21 +0100
Benjamin said on 23 Mar 96...

> >The point is that bioware does things that your own body doesn't, and
> >that's what costs the essence. If it's an artificially-grown, exact copy
>
> Then why don't mundanes lose essence??

Because "physical integrity is even more crucial for the magically active"
(ST page 5).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If cows eat humans, will they get Mad Human Disease?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 52
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:43:25 +0100
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:43:21 +0100 (MET)

Lord Tallion wrote:

> >O.K. on page 5 it says LITERALLY:
> >"The Essence cost for bioware is equal to the Body Cost."
> >So how much Body does your Sam LOSE when acquiring bioware ?

> Sigh, this is just a big misunderstanding (heaped with a bit of bad
> writing, it means (to the best of my knowledge) Body [index] cost.

Ah. So we agree on the point that the rule is somewhat screwed up in
the way it was written. This was everything I said:
It isn't that precisely written that ANYONE could say "it has to cost
essence" OR "it doesn't cost essence" - you can read BOTH if you want
to. This means we have to concentrate on the "what makes sense" line
of thought and it just doesn't make sense that it should be more
essence-friendly for a mage to rip his muscles off and get them
replaced by something that leaks oil instead of bleeding than getting
some slight enhancements and increase the blood throughput and so on
on his own muscles.

Muscle replacement 4 (Beta grade):
Essence cost: 2,4
versus
Muscle enhancement 4 (Cultured):
Essence cost: 2,4
PLUS all magical healings +1,2
(additional to the higher TN due to lower essence)

I've compared Beta grade to Cultured Bioware here (both are about
equally hard to get) - even though could have compared delta grade to
it, because we are talking about what's POSSIBLE here, not what's
realistic - then the Muscle replacement would have come at 2 Points of
essencewhile you cannot make Muscle enhancement cost less than 2,4 points
of Body (and hence essence for the guys who think this is the way to
treat things).

Meaning: If you are a mage go an get youself the nastiest and most
invasive of all solutions: CYBERWARE, it doesn't damage your magic as
badly as Bioware, a part based on your own DNA, cultured and grown
specifically for the least possible invasion does.
If you are a sammy go an get yourself stuffed to the max with
Bioware, you don't care about your sprit-body link... but wait:
wouldn't this mean you don't lose essence for Cyberware, as well...

See what I mean ?

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 53
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:14:42 +0100
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:14:38 +0100 (MET)

> I did read your post. I do not recall it stating that the magician in
> question was born that way. If he/she was, then you have a point in
> an arm causing essence. If he/she just lost it, then your claims have
> no validity.

Maybe you've read my posting but you definitely didn't understand it.

If a one-armed magician has essence 6 this is is natural state - at
least if you believe in this "bioware has to cost essence" stuff and
ANY addition, be it a regrown arm or a third leg is an extra
functionality. If you say bioware doesn't cost essence, it all comes
down to: attaching bioware does cost you magic rating due to the
psychological approch "I wasn't born with it" but it doesn't cost
essence because it is MEAT of your OWN DNA, after all, replacement
parts don't cost essence, as well.

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 54
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:53:24 +0100
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:53:21 +0100 (MET)

> >Grounding through Quicknening is casting spells at
> >spells - if you allow that in your game: fine. We don't.

> Then what is grouding through a spell lock?
> With all due respect... grounding through a quickened spell is merely
> using the spell to connect to whatever the physical component (usually
> the target of the quickened spell) is. Provided you rule that Quickenings
> provided the necessary astral connection, of course.

Grounding through spell locks means casting a spell at the spell lock,
not at the spell that's bound in it because an activated spell lock is
a dual natured item and can hence be used for grounding through a
focus according to the rules. A quickening isn't an item, it isn't
existing by itself (without spell) and it doesn't have a physical
presence by itself.

I am not going to discuss all this "the mage is the physical part of a
quickening" drek again - if your mage becomes an item when quickening
a spell, fine. Mine doesn't.

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 55
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:48:39 +0100
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:48:36 +0100 (MET)

> Because magically active characters are more sensitve to changes to the
> aural template? I know, it's a lot of hand waving, but it's better than
> just saying "Game Balance".

For game balancing reasons Bioware has to cost magic rating - that is
nasty enough, only "rollplayers" don't care for the effects of magic
loss on their characters. This loss is perfectly explained by
"sensitivity" for changes in the aural template. It doesn't have to
cost essence for this argument to be true and it doesn't have to cost
essence for game balancing reasons.

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 56
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:25:37 +0100
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:25:34 +0100 (MET)

Paul J. Adam wrote:

> > Cultured Bioware AND regrown parts of your body BOTH:
> > - match your DNA
> No, bioware is close enough to your DNA to not be attacked by your own
> immune system. Cultured bioware is *based* on your DNA, which is then
> altered to produce the desired result. It's less intrusive than normal
> bioware because it starts from a closer point.
> > - were artificially grown
> What about someone else's arm or body organ? Replacements don't have to
> be vatgrown. That arm isn't artificially grown, it just didn't grow on
> you! Okay, if it's specifically vatgrown... but replacements don't
> *have* to be.

So you are telling me that something that VERY closely resembles your
own DNA (Cultured Bioware) does cost you essence while something
TOTALY ALIEN (replacement part form other sources than regrowth)
doesn't ?
To go one step further. You may even get an arm from someone
that was stronger than you are or a liver from someone who's liver was
better at breaking down stuff - this is exactly what the muscle
enhancements or better liver our of Shadowtech do ! Why don't you lose
essence then ???

The point is: ALL kinds of biological attachments, be they synaptic
accelerators, regrown arms or just "torn off" arm, are a kind of
BIOWARE. So if you say "Bioware costs essence", this has to be valid
for ALL Bioware. If you say "Bioware that was somehow cultured to
enhance/replace the orginial parts" costs magic rating due to
psychological trauma it is O.K. (this is the way I handle it, too - no
extra costs for mages WOULD be munchkinous, yes) - but making it cost
essence means not having thought about it carefully.

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 57
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 96 22:27:00 +1030
>THEN WHY DOES IT ONLY DO THIS TO THE MAGICALLY ACTIVE???? Come ON!

It says so in the book! Read it! The magically active are more sensitive
to changes in their aural template. It affects the flow of mana to a
greater extent, resulting in game terms as a loss of Essence.

Happy now?


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 58
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 96 22:27:10 +1030
>"The Essence cost for bioware is equal to the Body Cost."
>
>So how much Body does your Sam LOSE when acquiring bioware ?

And it literally defines Body Cost as being the amount towards your Body
Index that the piece of bioware costs you...


--
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* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
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* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 59
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 14:07:49 +0000 (GMT)
|O.K. on page 5 it says LITERALLY:
|
|"The Essence cost for bioware is equal to the Body Cost."
|
|So how much Body does your Sam LOSE when acquiring bioware ?

OK. So FASA left out the word INDEX. Does this really matter? It says you
lose essence, and I'll still play it that way.
(I'd play it as a temporary essence loss. Lose the bioware, regain the
essence (over a period of time)).

And YES! The essence loss issue is important. Essence determines how easy it
is for you to be healed magically. I think it quite reasonable that bioware
should make magical healing more difficult.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
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Message no. 60
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 14:16:23 +0000 (GMT)
|
|>Grounding through Quicknening is casting spells at
|>spells - if you allow that in your game: fine. We don't.
|
|Then what is grouding through a spell lock?

A spell lock is a physical enchanted item that forms a link between astral
space and the physical world. Therefore, a bridge can be formed and a spell
grounded.
A quickening *has* no physical component. Therefore, there is no way to form
a bridge between the planes.

|With all due respect... grounding through a quickened spell is merely
|using the spell to connect to whatever the physical component (usually
|the target of the quickened spell) is. Provided you rule that Quickenings
|provided the necessary astral connection, of course.

If that was the case, why can't you ground through a sustained spell????

The answer, is of course, the spell resides in astral space, affecting the
AURA of the person it was cast in. Is has no physical component, whereas
foci do.--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 61
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 10:29:44 -0500
On Mar 24, 1996 12:43:25, 'Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>' wrote:


>I've compared Beta grade to Cultured Bioware here (both are about
>equally hard to get) - even though could have compared delta grade to
>it, because we are talking about what's POSSIBLE here, not what's
>realistic - then the Muscle replacement would have come at 2 Points of
>essencewhile you cannot make Muscle enhancement cost less than 2,4 points
>of Body (and hence essence for the guys who think this is the way to
>treat things).
>
>Meaning: If you are a mage go an get youself the nastiest and most
>invasive of all solutions: CYBERWARE, it doesn't damage your magic as
>badly as Bioware, a part based on your own DNA, cultured and grown
>specifically for the least possible invasion does.
>If you are a sammy go an get yourself stuffed to the max with
>Bioware, you don't care about your sprit-body link... but wait:
>wouldn't this mean you don't lose essence for Cyberware, as well...
>
>See what I mean ?
>
>Bye...
> Georg

Only Magically active people lose essence, from the Sammy's point of view
it's, "hey, i can get a whole bunch of bioware, then a whole bunch of
cyber, cool!"

But there'd be no point in getting muscle replacement AND enhancement,
you'd just be enhancing your muscles, then ripping them out and putting new
ones in :)

--
-Lord Tallion <Tal Kedem>
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M--
V PS+ PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/2161/ (Under Construction, but aren't they
all?)
- tsbtal@***.pipeline.com - tkedem@********.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu -
-tallion@******.net -
"Cthulhu in `96 - Why settle for a lesser evil?"
Message no. 62
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 10:28:48 -0500
On Mar 24, 1996 12:43:25, 'Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>' wrote:


>I've compared Beta grade to Cultured Bioware here (both are about
>equally hard to get) - even though could have compared delta grade to
>it, because we are talking about what's POSSIBLE here, not what's
>realistic - then the Muscle replacement would have come at 2 Points of
>essencewhile you cannot make Muscle enhancement cost less than 2,4 points
>of Body (and hence essence for the guys who think this is the way to
>treat things).
>
>Meaning: If you are a mage go an get youself the nastiest and most
>invasive of all solutions: CYBERWARE, it doesn't damage your magic as
>badly as Bioware, a part based on your own DNA, cultured and grown
>specifically for the least possible invasion does.
>If you are a sammy go an get yourself stuffed to the max with
>Bioware, you don't care about your sprit-body link... but wait:
>wouldn't this mean you don't lose essence for Cyberware, as well...
>
>See what I mean ?
>
>Bye...
> Georg

Only Magically active people lose essence, from the Sammy's point of view
it's, "hey, i can get a whole bunch of bioware, then a whole bunch of
cyber, cool!"

But there'd be no point in getting muscle replacement AND enhancement,
you'd just be enhancing your muscles, then ripping them out and putting new
ones in :)

--
-Lord Tallion <Tal Kedem>
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M--
V PS+ PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/2161/ (Under Construction, but aren't they
all?)
- tsbtal@***.pipeline.com - tkedem@********.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu -
-tallion@******.net -
"Cthulhu in `96 - Why settle for a lesser evil?"
Message no. 63
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 09:29:37 PST
>And YES! The essence loss issue is important. Essence determines how easy it
>is for you to be healed magically. I think it quite reasonable that bioware
>should make magical healing more difficult.

but you ALREADY add 1/2 the body index to the TN for magical healing!

So:
You get Wired 2. Essence cost:2
effective +2 to TN for magical healing

Something w/a body index of 2. Essence cost:2
Effective +2 to TN for magical healing
AND +1 to TN

See?


--
Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)
benjamin@*****.com (NOT whatever happenes to be in the From: line today)

Probably the world's only 14-year-old Weretiger PhysAd

no website
Message no. 64
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:53:55 +0000 (GMT)
|
|>And YES! The essence loss issue is important. Essence determines how easy it
|>is for you to be healed magically. I think it quite reasonable that bioware
|>should make magical healing more difficult.
|
|but you ALREADY add 1/2 the body index to the TN for magical healing!

OK. I admit it. I forgot about that one.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 65
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:02:44 -0600
>only "rollplayers" don't care for the effects of magic
>loss on their characters.

(looks that over again to be sure he saw correctly)

It costs a good deal of power to lose magic rating as a magician or adept.
Rarely does it give a character a advantage. Sometimes it is extremely
disadvantageous.

Advantages can come from things like wired reflexes and such which increase
"regular" combat speed. Vision enhancements can also help out (though
viewing astrally works as well or better than thermographic in darkness and
is immune to flare as well).

Disadvantages include limited area of effect on spells of the type.
Physical drain from spells with force ratings over the character's magic
rating also deters more than a few rollplayers. Geasa are really
inhibiting. Magic Pool also becomes limited as you can only throw as many
dice as your magic rating into any one Magic Success Test. Banishing Tests
are affected also. In losing essence, magicians decrease the amount of time
they can astrally project by a great deal. When trying to pass through
barriers or fight spells, magic rating is extremely important. I'm sure
there are more disadvantages out there, but I play samurai so it's someone
else's job.

Basically what this all comes down to is, it is often more effective to stay
pure than it is to create a cybermage. FASA has done really well in
balancing this. The advantages from cyber/bio-netics are continually
checked by disadvantages.

Cybermagicians aren't necessarily rollplayers (or if they think they are,
they could be in for a nasty lesson) and certainly "pure" magicians are mroe
oftne than not guilty of rollplaying at times ("Let's see... I want lots of
damage, as little drain as possible, throw in fetish and foci, keep the
force at my magic rating, etc..."). So don't even go crying "rollplayer"
or
"munchkin" if you don't know what you're talking about.

Did I mention that this is one of my biggest peeves? ;)


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 66
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:19:27 -0600
>To go one step further. You may even get an arm from someone
>that was stronger than you are or a liver from someone who's liver was
>better at breaking down stuff - this is exactly what the muscle
>enhancements or better liver our of Shadowtech do !

Muscle enhancements from Shadowtech add Gortex to your muscle fibers (far
from adding normal muscle or even replacement muscle). Your muscles are
still there, nothing is removed, but a lot of foreign material is added.

In the toxin extractor (the improved liver) we find that it is a "specially
cultivated cluster of cells implanted in the liver to greatly improve the
efficiency and to expand the spectrum of catabolic activity." So it isn't a
new liver, it's your old one with new, foreign parts that aren't normally
found in any liver including yours.

Everything in Shadowtech involves the implantation of foreign objects into
your body. In all cases these foreign objects lead to change in how your
body functions (mostly for the better but ALWAYS different from the
original). As has been explained many times here, magically active people
are FAR more sensitive to these changes and are penalized accordingly.

Getting an arm from someone stronger than you is not bioware. It's a
replacement arm. Eventually (read: by the time you've healed from surgery)
it will atrophy down to your body's regular strength level. I doubt you'll
be transplanting troll arms onto human characters as they would be rejected
by the host's system almost immediately.


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 67
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 11:18:54 PST
>Everything in Shadowtech involves the implantation of foreign objects into
>your body. In all cases these foreign objects lead to change in how your
>body functions (mostly for the better but ALWAYS different from the
>original). As has been explained many times here, magically active people
>are FAR more sensitive to these changes and are penalized accordingly.

Then why isn't cyber even nastier to the magically active?
Message no. 68
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:38:34 -0600
>I've compared Beta grade to Cultured Bioware here (both are about
>equally hard to get) - even though could have compared delta grade to
>it, because we are talking about what's POSSIBLE here, not what's
>realistic - then the Muscle replacement would have come at 2 Points of
>essencewhile you cannot make Muscle enhancement cost less than 2,4 points
>of Body (and hence essence for the guys who think this is the way to
>treat things).

Delta-grade Muscle Replacement 4 costs 2.0 essence and *drum roll* 800,000
nuyen. Cultured Muscle Enhancement 4 costs 2.4 body index (and essence for
magicians/adepts) and costs 360,000 nuyen. Muscle Enhancement also adds to
reaction which Replacement does not. Hmmm...which would I rather have? The
one that costs 440,000 more and does less or the one that messes with my bod
just a tiny bit more, doesn't show up on scanners, and makes me faster?

(Just an FYI here, beta-grade Muscle Replacement 4 still costs 200,000 more
nuyen than Muscle Enhancement, and as was noted before does less.)

>Meaning: If you are a mage go an get youself the nastiest and most
>invasive of all solutions: CYBERWARE, it doesn't damage your magic as
>badly as Bioware, a part based on your own DNA, cultured and grown
>specifically for the least possible invasion does.
>If you are a sammy go an get yourself stuffed to the max with
>Bioware, you don't care about your sprit-body link... but wait:
>wouldn't this mean you don't lose essence for Cyberware, as well...

Bioware can be BASED on yor own DNA (protein matched and such) but it isn't
your strict DNA or you'd have that stuff already. It is different, it is
foreign, and it does interact on a more biological level (and as such the
higher penalties to the aural template) than cyberware does. Cyberware just
creates blanks in the aura. Bioware creates large-scale changes. The same
aura with blanks is closer to normal than an altered aura.


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 69
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:47:16 -0600
[snipped the whole one-armed magician bit]

Isn't it obscenely rare to see children born without an arm? Thus, this
one-armed mage of discussion would have to have lost the arm during his
life. Which would have reduced his essence (if it wasn't replaced properly)
and his magic rating. So no, the mage wouldn't have an essence of 6, he'd
have a 5. Adding a cyberarm wouldn't change anything. The arm's already
gone, the essence along with it, adding cyberware there doesn't do anything
but give the guy an arm.

If through some miraculous way the magician was only born with one arm, then
adding a cyberarm would cost him essence (which would drop from 6 -normal-
to 5 -with arm-) because it was not an original part of his aural template
and his body/mind would have to be altered to dealing with the new extremity.

Overall I find this part of the discussion rather silly and pointless...


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 70
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:54:01 -0600
>But there'd be no point in getting muscle replacement AND enhancement,
>you'd just be enhancing your muscles, then ripping them out and putting new
>ones in :)

Muscle Replacement takes out your muscles and replaces them with vat-grown
synthetic tissues. Skeletal enhancement and calcium treatments are also
involved. After getting muscle replacement, you could further strengthen
yourself with muscle augmentation. What this would do is add Gortex to the
synthetic tissue making it even stronger than it normally is.

So yes, there is a point to having both.


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 71
From: "Mr. Me" <jlr6@****.ucc.nau.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:57:19 -0700 (MST)
On Sun, 24 Mar 1996, Benjamin wrote:

> >Everything in Shadowtech involves the implantation of foreign objects into
> >your body. In all cases these foreign objects lead to change in how your
> >body functions (mostly for the better but ALWAYS different from the
> >original). As has been explained many times here, magically active people
> >are FAR more sensitive to these changes and are penalized accordingly.
>
> Then why isn't cyber even nastier to the magically active?
>
It is...that's why mages lose Magic as well as Essence....


This space blank till I go through my books and find some new stuff to
quote...


jlr6@****.ucc.nau.edu
Mr.Me High Arch Priest of Tod<gorf gorf gorf> God of Small Frogs
Message no. 72
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 11:57:38 PST
>Isn't it obscenely rare to see children born without an arm? Thus, this
>one-armed mage of discussion would have to have lost the arm during his
>life. Which would have reduced his essence (if it wasn't replaced properly)
>and his magic rating. So no, the mage wouldn't have an essence of 6, he'd
>have a 5. Adding a cyberarm wouldn't change anything. The arm's already
>gone, the essence along with it, adding cyberware there doesn't do anything
>but give the guy an arm.

Where does it say this?

--
Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)
benjamin@*****.com (NOT whatever happenes to be in the From: line today)

Probably the world's only 14-year-old Weretiger PhysAd

no website


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Message no. 73
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 20:35:17 +0000 (GMT)
|
|>Isn't it obscenely rare to see children born without an arm? Thus, this
|>one-armed mage of discussion would have to have lost the arm during his
|>life. Which would have reduced his essence (if it wasn't replaced properly)
|>and his magic rating. So no, the mage wouldn't have an essence of 6, he'd
|>have a 5. Adding a cyberarm wouldn't change anything. The arm's already
|>gone, the essence along with it, adding cyberware there doesn't do anything
|>but give the guy an arm.
|
|Where does it say this?

It doesn't.
In fact, it doesn't mention losing essence for losing limbs. Only for adding
bits'n'pieces.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 74
From: dherr@********.net (David Herr)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 96 15:44:54 EST
On Sun, 24 Mar 1996 11:57:38 PST you wrote:

>>Isn't it obscenely rare to see children born without an arm? Thus, this
>>one-armed mage of discussion would have to have lost the arm during his
>>life. Which would have reduced his essence (if it wasn't replaced properly)
>>and his magic rating. So no, the mage wouldn't have an essence of 6, he'd
>>have a 5. Adding a cyberarm wouldn't change anything. The arm's already
>>gone, the essence along with it, adding cyberware there doesn't do anything
>>but give the guy an arm.
>
>Where does it say this?
>
no where does it say this, the original poster is just plain wrong.
if he adds a cyber arm he does loose essence. the cyber arm is a
foreign object to his astral template and there fore further removes
the player from his astral template. think about it, placing foriegn
objects into your body (accept for food, and such) does far more
damage to you than say not having your apendix. its the same kind of
thing.

if you have a vat grown arm attached to your bod then you should
suffer less essence/magic loss 'cause its closer to what you originaly
had, but the vat grown arm didn't have the same "experiances" as the
real arm, so its still not a perfect match for your astral template.


_________________________________________________________________________
|I have the right to offend whomever |http://www.together.net/~dherr/sams2.html |
|I want just as they have the right to |Come and visit sams web, soon to undergo |
|be offended, or offend me right back. |major reconstruction |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 75
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 15:53:31 -0600
>>>[snipped my bit about limb loss = essence loss]

>>Where does it say this?

>It doesn't.

After checking back through my books I find that I was indeed wrong there.
Only character in our campaigns who ever lost any part of himself was a mage
and he lost a point of magic to it. So I got confused a bit. My apologies.

I did (actually did not) however find something that made me think a bit.
There is no information on characters who are missing a limb. In SRII pgs.
113-114 it explains that replacements are required if a body part is damaged
beyond use. It doesn't say that you can go on without that part. It
assumes that you *will* get a replacement. So in Shadowrun anyway, nobody
walks around missing parts (they fall into a plot hole if they try). Go figure.

Once again though, I'd like to state that this argument is totally
irrelevant to the topic. What does any of this have to do with bioware?
(which is, once again, the introduction of foreign material into the body
which may be BASED on one's DNA but is not wholly of that code or it would
be the exact same as what you already have)


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 76
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:58:37 -0500
On Mar 24, 1996 11:18:54, 'Benjamin <benjamin@*****.COM>' wrote:


>>Everything in Shadowtech involves the implantation of foreign objects
into
>>your body. In all cases these foreign objects lead to change in how your

>>body functions (mostly for the better but ALWAYS different from the
>>original). As has been explained many times here, magically active
people
>>are FAR more sensitive to these changes and are penalized accordingly.
>
>Then why isn't cyber even nastier to the magically active?

The loss of magic is REALLY nasty to any true ROLE-playing magician (a
ROLL-player would say, "Hmmm, i had to replace my eyes, so I might as well
put another .7 essence in")

For more info on how it affects the characters ability in magic and his
psychology, check out "Path of the Burnout" in Awakenings.

--
-Lord Tallion <Tal Kedem>
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M--
V PS+ PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/2161/ (Under Construction, but aren't they
all?)
- tsbtal@***.pipeline.com - tkedem@********.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu -
-tallion@******.net -
"Cthulhu in `96 - Why settle for a lesser evil?"
Message no. 77
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 07:29:24 +1030
>A quickening *has* no physical component. Therefore, there is no way to form
>a bridge between the planes.

A spell with a Physical effect and a physical target _has_ a physical
component. Not all quickened spells fall into this category, but the vast
majority do.

>|With all due respect... grounding through a quickened spell is merely
>|using the spell to connect to whatever the physical component (usually
>|the target of the quickened spell) is. Provided you rule that Quickenings
>|provided the necessary astral connection, of course.
>
>If that was the case, why can't you ground through a sustained spell????

Because the mind of the caster gets in the way. Blast him/her instead.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 78
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:03:11 -0600
>if you have a vat grown arm attached to your bod then you should
>suffer less essence/magic loss 'cause its closer to what you originaly
>had, but the vat grown arm didn't have the same "experiances" as the
>real arm, so its still not a perfect match for your astral template.

Some vat-grown parts are clonal, others are close enough to not be rejected
by your body. In all cases of non-cyber replacement parts, if they are not
rejected by your body, then they will not cost any essence.

Now onto how this works for mages. If they have to get a non-cloned part,
then they will be at a loss of 1 magic point (even though the body didn't
reject it, the part is just as foreign to the aural template as a cyberarm).
However, they can replace this non-cloned part with a cloned part at any
time afterward and regain that lost point. Of course, this means deadly
damage surgery again which could result in magic loss.


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 79
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 07:29:36 +1030
>So you are telling me that something that VERY closely resembles your
>own DNA (Cultured Bioware) does cost you essence while something
>TOTALY ALIEN (replacement part form other sources than regrowth)
>doesn't ?
>To go one step further. You may even get an arm from someone
>that was stronger than you are or a liver from someone who's liver was
>better at breaking down stuff - this is exactly what the muscle
>enhancements or better liver our of Shadowtech do ! Why don't you lose
>essence then ???

Okay... I go stick a bit of metal in you. Your body heals around it,
doesn't do much to get rid of it.

I go stick another person's organ into. Now, the difference in DNA is
something like a 1% fluctation throughout the entire species, so no
matter who had the organ originally, it VERY closely resembles your own.
Guess what happens?


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realizedthat a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent infinding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 80
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:01:10 -0500
On Mar 24, 1996 13:54:01, 'TopCat <topcat@******.net>' wrote:


>>But there'd be no point in getting muscle replacement AND enhancement,
>>you'd just be enhancing your muscles, then ripping them out and putting
new
>>ones in :)
>
>Muscle Replacement takes out your muscles and replaces them with vat-grown

>synthetic tissues. Skeletal enhancement and calcium treatments are also
>involved. After getting muscle replacement, you could further strengthen
>yourself with muscle augmentation. What this would do is add Gortex to
the
>synthetic tissue making it even stronger than it normally is.
>
>So yes, there is a point to having both.

Oh, oops :)

--
-Lord Tallion <Tal Kedem>
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M--
V PS+ PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/2161/ (Under Construction, but aren't they
all?)
- tsbtal@***.pipeline.com - tkedem@********.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu -
-tallion@******.net -
"Cthulhu in `96 - Why settle for a lesser evil?"
Message no. 81
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 07:30:00 +1030
>I am not going to discuss all this "the mage is the physical part of a
>quickening" drek again - if your mage becomes an item when quickening
>a spell, fine. Mine doesn't.

Not the mage... the target. There's a difference.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 82
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:13:09 -0600
>The loss of magic is REALLY nasty to any true ROLE-playing magician

Loss of magic is a tragic thing to those characters that really feel
strongly about it. Some magicians may well not feel anything at all about
throwing some cyberware in themselves. After all, cyberware is very common
in Shadowrun and would not really be looked upon as a blight by any except
hardcore Luddites (which are fairly rare) and those who want their numbers
as high as possible when it comes to magic (rollplayers).

>For more info on how it affects the characters ability in magic and his
>psychology, check out "Path of the Burnout" in Awakenings.

That's how it worked with one mage. He also went to the point of extinction
with his magic. I really despise forced roleplaying and when people want to
turn things like that into rules then I get...irked. So please, don't throw
yourself into every stereotype out there, play something different,
something that YOU worked with. That's how the game can be fun, not by
being forced into a role because "that guy in that story acted like this!"


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 83
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:34:50 -0500
On Mar 24, 1996 16:13:09, 'TopCat <topcat@******.net>' wrote:


>>The loss of magic is REALLY nasty to any true ROLE-playing magician
>
>Loss of magic is a tragic thing to those characters that really feel
>strongly about it. Some magicians may well not feel anything at all about

>throwing some cyberware in themselves. After all, cyberware is very
common
>in Shadowrun and would not really be looked upon as a blight by any except

>hardcore Luddites (which are fairly rare) and those who want their numbers

>as high as possible when it comes to magic (rollplayers).

Agreed, some mages would see the use of this, but generally, they also see
the disadvantages, their loss of magic. And since magic IS their life,
they generally (again, GENERALLY! :) ) choose not to use cyber. But then
some do, (be it .something essence or a whole shitload)

>>For more info on how it affects the characters ability in magic and his
>>psychology, check out "Path of the Burnout" in Awakenings.
>
>That's how it worked with one mage. He also went to the point of
extinction
>with his magic. I really despise forced roleplaying and when people want
to
>turn things like that into rules then I get...irked. So please, don't
throw
>yourself into every stereotype out there, play something different,
>something that YOU worked with. That's how the game can be fun, not by
>being forced into a role because "that guy in that story acted like this!"


Ugh, that's not what I meant, sorry to incur your rath O lord TopCat :( or
:)

That is obviously an extreme example, and a player can decide, "Hey, this
magic stuff has ruined my life, I'm gonna go out and get cyber", that's
fine, as long as it makes sense with THAT character :)
--
-Lord Tallion <Tal Kedem>
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M--
V PS+ PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/2161/ (Under Construction, but aren't they
all?)
- tsbtal@***.pipeline.com - tkedem@********.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu -
-tallion@******.net -
"Cthulhu in `96 - Why settle for a lesser evil?"
Message no. 84
From: Super Grover <taleask@***.ucalgary.ca>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 15:38:22 -0700 (MST)
On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Okay... I go stick a bit of metal in you. Your body heals around it,
> doesn't do much to get rid of it.
>
> I go stick another person's organ into. Now, the difference in DNA is
> something like a 1% fluctation throughout the entire species, so no
> matter who had the organ originally, it VERY closely resembles your own.
> Guess what happens?


Well, 1% is an average an when we're talking about approximately a
billion base pairs, 1 % becomes very significant, hell, 1 base pair
becomes more than significatn if it is at the right spot (ie introduces a
stop codon in the middle of the message, therfore no protein) not to
mention if the varitaion exists in the antibody proteins (used to
distinguish self from non-self)

Another point, Gene therapy doen't cost essence/bioware. Two things.
First, shouldn't (by some interpretations that introducing foreign DNA is
the cause of essence loss, not implying that you support this or not
Robert) this also cause essence loss in magicians if it is to correct a
significant enough portion of the genome (such as some genetic diseases?)

Second, theoretically, a mage could give some DNA to have the cultured
organ grown, while also undergoing extensive genetherapy to introduce
those genes into the rest of his/her somatic cells (and maybe even
his/her germ cells, oh the possibilities!! ;) This would then mean the
mage would not be altering his/her genome when the organ is implanted
(oh, by organ I mean bioware, not a simple replacement, sorry.)

So if altering the genome does cause the essence loss, then the magician
is totaly screwed by the second process (twice the essence loss)

But, if genetherapy does not cause essence loss, then the second method
should theoretically not cause any essence loss, as you are no longer
introducing an organ is not encoded in your genome.

I use the second outcome, with no essence loss, but before anyone calls
munch, You have to realise that genetherapy usually only involves one
gene being corrects (the majority of genetic diseases involve maybe one
base pair mutation). The type of gene therapy that would be required for
the above would reuire some _very_ major nuyen. Of the three years my
group has been gaming, only once has a magician been able to do so. and
he didn't do anything else for most of the time (lived very poorly, just
to save the money, not much in way of magical research or development).
In the end, he decided it probably wasn't worth it.



Super Grover

FAR!
patter,patter,patter,patter
NEAR!
Message no. 85
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:43:38 -0500
On Sun, 24 Mar 1996 "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk> wrote:

> A quickening *has* no physical component. Therefore, there is no way to form
> a bridge between the planes.

I think there is, but as you veterans of the Endless Debate already knew
that. ;)

> |the target of the quickened spell) is. Provided you rule that Quickenings
> |provided the necessary astral connection, of course.
>
> If that was the case, why can't you ground through a sustained spell????

If you allow grounding through Quickenings then you almost have to allow
grounding through sustained spells, too. I don't have a problem with this.
Other people do. So be it. The End.

--Craig
Message no. 86
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:05:33 GMT + 2:00
@
@ > WQrong, A cloned arm is just that. A clone of your arm. Bioware whether
@ > cultured or not is not the same organ that you were born with. A such is
@ > differs from the aura and impededs the mage's ability to cast spells.
@
@ Sorry, but you should think about it twice.
@
@ Cultured Bioware AND regrown parts of your body BOTH:
@
@ - match your DNA

Yes, and No. The clone of the arm matchs your DNA 100% as it was
grown from germs cells or the like from your body. I would say that
generic bioware only has 'neutral' protien matching, ie the body
doesn't actually recognize it (like a parasite), after a couple of
years the bodies natural cells replace the implanted. Cultured Bioware
is protien matched so that the body recognizes it as self. This form
of bioware will probably last longer, even though the basic DNA don't
match each other.

@ - were artificially grown

No arguments there

@ - give you a kind of functionality you didn't have before !

An arm is an arm, but from my perception bioware is really just
an overdrive mechanism for the body. It pushs the body closer to it's
theoretical limits.

Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 87
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 18:35:07 +1030
>|but you ALREADY add 1/2 the body index to the TN for magical healing!
>
>OK. I admit it. I forgot about that one.....

That's to penalise non-magical people... :)


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 88
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 18:55:57 +1030
>Another point, Gene therapy doen't cost essence/bioware. Two things.
>First, shouldn't (by some interpretations that introducing foreign DNA is
>the cause of essence loss, not implying that you support this or not
>Robert) this also cause essence loss in magicians if it is to correct a
>significant enough portion of the genome (such as some genetic diseases?)

Perhaps... but as I understand genetic therapy, most such therapy acts
merely to suppress the trigger that causes the genetic condition to
occur. True eradication of the disease would, IMHO, cost Essence.

Also, a lot of genetech in my game is along the lines of that tailored
bacterial compound I mentioned before.

>Second, theoretically, a mage could give some DNA to have the cultured
>organ grown, while also undergoing extensive genetherapy to introduce
>those genes into the rest of his/her somatic cells (and maybe even
>his/her germ cells, oh the possibilities!! ;) This would then mean the
>mage would not be altering his/her genome when the organ is implanted
>(oh, by organ I mean bioware, not a simple replacement, sorry.)

He/she'd be altering the rest by a far greater extent...


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 89
From: PDL@****.dacom.co.kr
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 09:34:32 PST
---------------Original Message---------------
Loss of magic is a tragic thing to those characters that really feel strongly about it.
Some magicians may well not feel anything at all about throwing some cyberware in
themselves. After all, cyberware is very common in Shadowrun and would not really be
looked upon as a blight by any except hardcore Luddites (which are fairly rare) and those
who want their numbers as high as possible when it comes to magic (rollplayers).

* Bob Ooton

----------End of Original Message----------
I do not believe your statement to be correct. I believe that there are compelling role
playing reasons, not to have any modifications. Shamans, for example "...avoids all
technology which invades the body." (SRII, pgs. 60 & 63) Now, do I believe that
this was put into the rules as a game balance device? Yes. Do I believe that is the sole
reason it was used?
No. This statement reflects the shamanic tradition. Shamans see themselves are part of
the natural world and see themselves as stewards of the land. Enhancement technology has
no place on the path of the shaman. One must consider the tradition when adding
technological enhancements to a character. I believe that this lack of consideration is
far more likely to cause "roll playing" than lack of technological enhancements.

Patrick
Message no. 90
From: PDL@****.dacom.co.kr
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 09:14:52 PST
---------------Original Message---------------

And YES! The essence loss issue is important. Essence determines how easy it is for you to
be healed magically. I think it quite reasonable that bioware should make magical healing
more difficult.

Andrew Halliwell

----------End of Original Message----------
What about non-magically active individuals then? It doesn't cost them essence. Are they
harder to heal also?

Patrick
Message no. 91
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 11:54:35 +0100
PDL@****.dacom.co.kr said on 25 Mar 96...

>What about non-magically active individuals then? It doesn't cost them
> essence. Are they harder to heal also?

Yes. Add 1/2 their Body Index to the TN for any Heal or Treat spell.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If you're using divine powers, you're doing it the hard way.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 92
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:33:38 +0000 (GMT)
|
|
|---------------Original Message---------------
|
|And YES! The essence loss issue is important. Essence determines how easy it is for you
to be healed magically. I think it quite reasonable that bioware should make magical
healing more difficult.
|
|Andrew Halliwell
|
|----------End of Original Message----------
|What about non-magically active individuals then? It doesn't cost them essence. Are
they harder to heal also?
|

Yes. 1/2 body index harder.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 93
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:42:31 -0500
At 14:45 3/23/96 +0100, Georg wrote:
>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:45:26 +0100 (MET)
>
>> WQrong, A cloned arm is just that. A clone of your arm. Bioware whether
>> cultured or not is not the same organ that you were born with. A such is
>> differs from the aura and impededs the mage's ability to cast spells.
>
>Sorry, but you should think about it twice.
>
>Cultured Bioware AND regrown parts of your body BOTH:
>
>- match your DNA
>
>- were artificially grown
>
>- give you a kind of functionality you didn't have before !
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I was away for a bit so forgive me if I'm behind.

A clone arm replaces what you already had. Your astral template has 2 arms.
If you lose one the template still has two. (If anything you'd lose magic
for not having a replacement made.) But bioware is not natural. It is
augmented tissue. The template does not have anything that ferences to the
new augmentation. Therefore your astral differers from your physical. That
is why it impacts your magical ability.

BTW FYI I use that bioware impacts magic and not essence for magicians. If I
played that it impacts essence for mages then I'd have to have it impact
essence for all characters. (In the vein of equals and fair play.)


>
>Your essence doesn't change when you lose an arm - this means it is
>the NATURAL state for your body now (like "this was my fate and hence
>I have to accept it - it is my unmodified state now"). If you attach a
>regrown arm to it it is a NEW arm without any relation to your body
>and it gives you extra functionality (the function of a second arm,
>your natural state was having one arm after losing the other -
>remember ?). So if you say Bioware costs essence, replacement parts to
>your body cost essence as well.
>
>Bye...
> Georg

Right Back At Ya,

BLAIR
Message no. 94
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:46:50 -0500
At 15:46 3/23/96 +0100, Georg wrote:
>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 15:46:37 +0100 (MET)
>
[SNIP]

>Look at my other posting. You weren't born with a cloned arm as well
>(at least I wasn't ;-) )... if you take your own line of thought
>seriously EVERY "artificial" thing about your body makes you lose
>essence, as well. Hence: eye surgery costs essence (wear contact
>lenses, guys), tattoing or piercing costs essence and getting cloned
>replacement part costs LOTS of essence...
>
>bye...
> Georg
>

Yes a clone part is artificial, but it is an exact copy of your original
arm. A piece of Bioware is not exactly the same as the original part it is
replacing. It is different and not an exact copy.

BLAIR
Message no. 95
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:53:23 -0500
At 12:55 3/23/96 -0500, Tal Kedem wrote:

>WHOAH!! It dosen't say you lose essence per BODY lost, but you lose the
>amount of essense your Body INDEX is, so if you get 4.2 BI worth of
>Bioware, and you are magically active, you lose 4.2 essence. It says it
>right there, as far as mechanics, it is not very vague. As far as
>"real-world" explanation, it isn't so difficult to explain (Templates,
>physical/astral)
>
>--
>-Lord Tallion <Tal Kedem>

So Spell-chucker get essense lose and everyone else doesn't. That is what
the rules say it is true, but it's stupid and unbalancing. What happens to a
burn-out. He's still a mage even if he can't chuck spells so he's limited in
how much cyber and bio he can get? How about if he goes and initiates? He'll
have 0 essense and still chuck spells?That can't be either. Face it Tal,
they made a mistake and didn't think it through. It can't cost essense, in
the long run it's to confusing.

BLAIR
Message no. 96
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:59:47 -0500
At 21:59 3/23/96 GMT, Shadowdancer wrote:

[SNIP]

>Now this does raise one interesting question: Can the aural template
>be changed to accomodate Cyber and Bio? Will children born to parents
>with cyber and bio have modifications to their aual templates that
>would allow certain mods without loosing essence? Darwin springs to
>mind...
>
>-The Shadowdancer (shadow@**.kensco.net)
>Http://www.kensco.net/~shadow/
>

*THUD*

*ROLL*

*SPILL*


Somebody opened a BIG can of worms.

Thanks Shadowdancer.

:)

BLAIR
Message no. 97
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 12:15:49 -0700 (MST)
|At 21:59 3/23/96 GMT, Shadowdancer wrote:
|
|[SNIP]
|
|>Now this does raise one interesting question: Can the aural template
|>be changed to accomodate Cyber and Bio?

I would say that right now (205x) that no, it can't be done. I would
say that the current state of magic theory and exact knowledge of the
interaction between a person's aura and cyber- bioware isn't high
enough to allow it. But in the future...who knows?

It does give me an idea for an adventure though. A once in a lifetime
genius figures out how to do it. But he's twisted and evil and uses
this knowledge for nefarious deeds. The runners are hired to retrieve
his notes and waste him. Give the whole thing an Island of Dr. Moreau
feel.

|>Will children born to parents
|>with cyber and bio have modifications to their aual templates that
|>would allow certain mods without loosing essence? Darwin springs to
|>mind...

Evolution slowly alters a species over a significant length of
geologic time (millions of years). Every once in a great while there
is a significant beneficial mutation for a single member of the
species. A single child could be born whose aura is resistant to
cyber- and bioware but I just don't see it happening to all children
of cyber/bioparents. (And if you do allow this child to be born in your
game I suggest that it be an NPC and NOT a PC, unless you're willing to
suffer the consequences.) Maybe every hundred years (and this is being
real liberal) .1 of mankind's essence would be unaffected by cyber-
bioware. At this rate of evolution after 6,000 years your character
could have 6 points of cyberware and keep his aura intact. Neat idea
though.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"Wanted: All Kathey Lee Gifford albums. Including her "Greatest
Hits" album and her Christmas album. Contact the Possum Lodge Skeet
Shooting Club."
~~~~~~~~~~www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~~~~
Message no. 98
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.com>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:42:02 -0800 (PST)
On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, Georg Greve wrote:

> Please read my postings carefully. I never said bioware shouldn't cost
> magic. All I said was it doesn't cost essence - which is perfectly
> fine if I take a look at your argumentation: You don't lose essence
> from using stim patches, do you ?

No, you don't... But your tone leaves much to be deisred.

Deirdre M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | Marizhavashti Kali
"Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult."
"Whose cult
is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?"
"Hubbard's dead,
baby. Hubbard's dead." -Meme-
Message no. 99
From: seb@***.ripco.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 18:57:23 -0600 (CST)
Bioware adds 1/2 BI to a healing spells TN. RTFM.
>
>
> ---------------Original Message---------------
>
> And YES! The essence loss issue is important. Essence determines how easy it is for
you to be healed magically. I think it quite reasonable that bioware should make magical
healing more difficult.
>
> Andrew Halliwell
>
> ----------End of Original Message----------
> What about non-magically active individuals then? It doesn't cost them essence. Are
they harder to heal also?
>
> Patrick
>
>


--
--Seb
Message no. 100
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 21:21:47 -0600
>Ugh, that's not what I meant, sorry to incur your rath O lord TopCat :( or
>:)

Definitely :) I rant a lot, so try not to take it seriously :) <and what's
this "lord" stuff anyway? I'm just some punk with a tendency to rant...>

>...as long as it makes sense with THAT character :)

YES! Now you got it :)


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 101
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 23:32:09 +0100
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 23:32:04 +0100 (MET)

Lord Talion wrote:
> Only Magically active people lose essence, from the Sammy's point of view
> it's, "hey, i can get a whole bunch of bioware, then a whole bunch of
> cyber, cool!"
> But there'd be no point in getting muscle replacement AND enhancement,
> be no point in getting muscle replacement AND enhancement,
> you'd just be enhancing your muscles, then ripping them out and putting new
> ones in :)

I'd be really pleased if you started reading my postings before
commenting them...

What I said was:

IF Bioware costs essence:

CYBERWARE is the FIRST CHOICE for Mages

and

BIOWARE is the FIRST CHOICE for Samurais

this is what I call ridiculous.



By the way: My Shaman became too strong for the group, so the GM and I
decided he'd get himself some Bioware (more as a mistake, but it
happened, he wasn't quite happy when he discovered he'd lost some
magic and had to take a geas) - in our group we only lose magic rating
for Bioware and it makes the Character WEAKER !!! He's not the burner
he used to be, but he's not powerless, as well. In my eyes only the
Munchkins shout "Bioware has to cost Essence for game balancing"
reasons, because they only munch on their numbers until they manage it
to create some kind of super-character. Lets face it guys: Making
Bioware cost essence won't save you from making Super-Chars... you'll
find other ways to maximize the characters. If a group consist of
ROLEplayers it is tough enough for a mage to lose magic rating !

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 102
From: Super Grover <taleask@***.ucalgary.ca>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 22:07:57 -0700 (MST)
On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> Perhaps... but as I understand genetic therapy, most such therapy acts
> merely to suppress the trigger that causes the genetic condition to
> occur. True eradication of the disease would, IMHO, cost Essence.

Most genetic diseases are point mutations (1 base pair mutation), so the
question would be does that one bse pair mutation cause essence loss. If
you say yes, then that means that anytime replication of DNA results in a
mutation of a single base pair, then the character loses essence (IMO
very stupid view, the character getting a sun tan would go from mage to
mundane in a matter of hours)

However, I see your point on extensive DNA manipulation. One question
would be does massive DNA damage (UV, mutagens, etc) cause essence loss
on this basis?, the result could be just as devastating to the orginal
coding as the manipulation I had orginally suggested. (could be bad news
for mages out there)

Another point to be made. Exactly how does the metagene interact with
other genes in the body? I do not have ShadowTech on me, so I don't
remember just how astral aura relates to metagene. I think there are very
tightly linked (I could be very wrong) I anyone out there can answer then
I think more could be said about the question should extensive gene
therapy couse essence loss.

>
> Also, a lot of genetech in my game is along the lines of that tailored
> bacterial compound I mentioned before.

I've never really developed bacterial compounds in my game. I figure that
maybe by 205x that cloning of bodies with whole intact organs to be
implanted wouldbe more the focus of bionetic and pharmaceutical companies
then bacteria, but's just the way i play my game.

>
> He/she'd be altering the rest by a far greater extent...

Umm,... I'm not quite sure what you mean be the rest.


FAR!
patter,patter,patter,patter
NEAR!
Message no. 103
From: Jonas Gabrielson <m94jga@*******.tdb.uu.se>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 12:00:13 +0100 (MET)
On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, David Buehrer wrote:

> |At 21:59 3/23/96 GMT, Shadowdancer wrote:
> |
> |[SNIP]
> |
> |>Now this does raise one interesting question: Can the aural template
> |>be changed to accomodate Cyber and Bio?
>
> I would say that right now (205x) that no, it can't be done. I would
> say that the current state of magic theory and exact knowledge of the
> interaction between a person's aura and cyber- bioware isn't high
> enough to allow it. But in the future...who knows?

SR 3055: Where Man *is* Magic and Machine
"Very well, sir. These are our brand new cyber-weapon foci..."

> It does give me an idea for an adventure though. A once in a lifetime
> genius figures out how to do it. But he's twisted and evil and uses
> this knowledge for nefarious deeds. The runners are hired to retrieve
> his notes and waste him. Give the whole thing an Island of Dr. Moreau
> feel.

"Igor! Hand me that aural screwdriver, and quick!
Moahahahahaha!!!!!!!!! IT'S ALIVE!!!!!!!!!! I'll teach them to make fun of
me and my research!!!!!"

> |>Will children born to parents
> |>with cyber and bio have modifications to their aual templates that
> |>would allow certain mods without loosing essence? Darwin springs to
> |>mind...
>
> Evolution slowly alters a species over a significant length of
> geologic time (millions of years). Every once in a great while there
> is a significant beneficial mutation for a single member of the
> species. A single child could be born whose aura is resistant to
> cyber- and bioware but I just don't see it happening to all children
> of cyber/bioparents. (And if you do allow this child to be born in your
> game I suggest that it be an NPC and NOT a PC, unless you're willing to
> suffer the consequences.) Maybe every hundred years (and this is being
> real liberal) .1 of mankind's essence would be unaffected by cyber-
> bioware. At this rate of evolution after 6,000 years your character
> could have 6 points of cyberware and keep his aura intact. Neat idea
> though.

Sure, the evolution toward cyber desensitation would be slow, but
given the fact that cyerware is a relatively new phenomenon, there is
always the possibility that evolution has already developed it by chance
and coincidence (okay, it's negligible, but "hey! it could happen"). And
on another note, this gene could actually have been developed and favoured
during the fourth age. Perhaps there are descendants of Horror Stalker
Adepts around, that have inherited some of their "Aural Hardening" and use
it to attune to cyberware easier?

-Jonas Gabrielson, stranger extraordinaire
Message no. 104
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 07:24:02 -0700 (MST)
Jonas Gabrielson wrote:
|
|On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, David Buehrer wrote:
|
|> |At 21:59 3/23/96 GMT, Shadowdancer wrote:
|> |
|> |>Will children born to parents
|> |>with cyber and bio have modifications to their aual templates that
|> |>would allow certain mods without loosing essence? Darwin springs to
|> |>mind...
|>
[snip] Talking about the time involved with evolution.
|
|on another note, this gene could actually have been developed and favoured
|during the fourth age. Perhaps there are descendants of Horror Stalker
|Adepts around, that have inherited some of their "Aural Hardening" and use
|it to attune to cyberware easier?

Wow, that opens up a new line of discusion. What mutations were present
in Earthdawn times that are now latent and are just waiting to be
"awakened"? Unfortunately I don't play Earthdawn, so I'll be left out.
But I'm interested in hearing what others are going to say.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"Wanted: All Kathey Lee Gifford albums. Including her "Greatest
Hits" album and her Christmas album. Contact the Possum Lodge Skeet
Shooting Club."
~~~~~~~~~~www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~~~~
Message no. 105
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:07:50 +0100
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:07:45 +0100 (MET)

> On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, Georg Greve wrote:
> > Please read my postings carefully. I never said bioware shouldn't cost
> > magic. All I said was it doesn't cost essence - which is perfectly
> > fine if I take a look at your argumentation: You don't lose essence
> > from using stim patches, do you ?
> No, you don't... But your tone leaves much to be deisred.

I am sorry if my tone was too harsh, but I am getting REALLY tired of
people who present a "you said thisandthat but thats wrong" argument
with a huge risen index finger that's got nothing to do with my
initial posting. It would be so much easier if they just started
reading my postings before saying I was wrong.

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 106
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 17:29:34 +1030
>However, I see your point on extensive DNA manipulation. One question
>would be does massive DNA damage (UV, mutagens, etc) cause essence loss
>on this basis?, the result could be just as devastating to the orginal
>coding as the manipulation I had orginally suggested. (could be bad news
>for mages out there)

I would rule that a severe case of cancer could cause Essence loss.
Certainly any disease or mutagen which caused massive damage to the body
would cause Essence loss, but that's probably the least of the concerns
of the people being subjected to it.
OTH, I would also rule that any cure to the condition which repaired the
damage would restore the Essence (as opposed to, say, removal of
cyberware, which does not, and often cannot, restore the body to the way
it was before).

>Another point to be made. Exactly how does the metagene interact with
>other genes in the body? I do not have ShadowTech on me, so I don't
>remember just how astral aura relates to metagene. I think there are very
>tightly linked (I could be very wrong) I anyone out there can answer then
>I think more could be said about the question should extensive gene
>therapy couse essence loss.

They are tightly linked enough that the gentic structure for magical
ability cannot be isolated, in a similar manner to the genetic structure
for high intelligence. Wether or not extensive genetic therapy would
damage the structure is unclear, and what the effect of that damage would
be is uncertain. :)

For what it's worth, if you look at the actual breakdown in Essence
costs, you can see that the brain is obviously the center of magical
power, as neural interfaces cause the majority of Essence loss. As the
brain doesn't regenerate the primary neurons, talk of genetic damage to
it is irrelevant to the mage, but might result in the loss of the
metagene for any potential children.



--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 107
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 17:30:31 +1030
>If a group consist of
>ROLEplayers it is tough enough for a mage to lose magic rating !

A group consisting of roleplayers won't scream 'bout Bioware costing
Essence, though. The munchkin mages scream, instead.
A ROLEplayer will look at the rule, decide wether or not the character
would accept this tradeoff in power, and act accordingly.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 108
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 10:36:50 -0500
At 17:30 3/27/96 +1030, Robert Watkins wrote:
>>If a group consist of
>>ROLEplayers it is tough enough for a mage to lose magic rating !
>
>A group consisting of roleplayers won't scream 'bout Bioware costing
>Essence, though. The munchkin mages scream, instead.
>A ROLEplayer will look at the rule, decide wether or not the character
>would accept this tradeoff in power, and act accordingly.
>
>
That's true, but as a GM I need to figure out what works best.

BLAIR
Message no. 109
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:30:49 +0100
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:30:46 +0100 (MET)

> >If a group consist of
> >ROLEplayers it is tough enough for a mage to lose magic rating !
> A group consisting of roleplayers won't scream 'bout Bioware costing
> Essence, though. The munchkin mages scream, instead.
> A ROLEplayer will look at the rule, decide wether or not the character
> would accept this tradeoff in power, and act accordingly.

Huh ? The rule is screwed up royally. A roleplayer takes a look at it,
says: "You could read it both ways, but only one makes sense" and
decides he will make bioware only cost magic.
A ROLLplayer will take out his (mental) calculator, min/max everything
and comes to the conclusion bioware has to cost essence, otherwise you
could use it for building munchkinous characters. So he reads the rule
tzhe way he wants it to be and then builds a "this is the rule and it
says this - everything else is irrelevant !"-castle around him.

Bye...
Georg

P.S. I am really sorry, but I HAD to answer this one... *sigh*

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 110
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.com>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 11:44:21 -0800 (PST)
On Thu, 28 Mar 1996, Georg Greve wrote:

> Huh ? The rule is screwed up royally. A roleplayer takes a look at it,
> says: "You could read it both ways, but only one makes sense" and
> decides he will make bioware only cost magic.

Interesting assumption, that being a better roleplayer will cause you to
interpret a rule in a way that it is not written...or to re-define the rule.

> A ROLLplayer will take out his (mental) calculator, min/max everything
> and comes to the conclusion bioware has to cost essence, otherwise you
> could use it for building munchkinous characters. So he reads the rule
> tzhe way he wants it to be and then builds a "this is the rule and it
> says this - everything else is irrelevant !"-castle around him.

Again an interesting assumption. You say that munchkins will see it this
way. This is very weird, Mr. Greve. Are you certain you are saying what
you think you are saying?

Deirdre M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | Marizhavashti Kali
"Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult."
"Whose cult
is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?"
"Hubbard's dead,
baby. Hubbard's dead." -Meme-
Message no. 111
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:36:58 +0100
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:36:53 +0100 (MET)

> > Huh ? The rule is screwed up royally. A roleplayer takes a look at it,
> > says: "You could read it both ways, but only one makes sense" and
> > decides he will make bioware only cost magic.
> Interesting assumption, that being a better roleplayer will cause you to
> interpret a rule in a way that it is not written...or to re-define the rule.

First of all: The "bioware costs essence"-rule everyone quotes IS
written in a way that can easily be understood as "the essence loss is
merely an indicator for magic loss, too". But this isn't the point. In
my eyes it IS a good thing not to start "rule-lawyering" and to say
"this is the rule and I don't care for anything else", yes. If you
don't think so: fine. It's up to everyone what he considers good
roleplaying.

> Again an interesting assumption. You say that munchkins will see it this
> way. This is very weird, Mr. Greve. Are you certain you are saying what
> you think you are saying?

Why are you calling me "Mr. Greve" ? I thought we use the first name
in here... but anyway: Could you please explain to me what you mean by
that ? I thought I knew what I said - but I'd like to hear what you
understood.

Bye...
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The curse of love is the cause of the pain [...] |
| If you give them a finger, they'll take off your hand" |
| AC/DC - "C.O.D." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-8223482 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 112
From: "Damion Milliken" <dam01@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 01:32:58 -3800 (EST)
OK, I couldn't resist putting in my two pesos worth on the great "bioware
does(n't) cost essence for magicians" debate:

----------
TopCat writes:

> Bioware can be BASED on yor own DNA (protein matched and such) but it isn't
> your strict DNA or you'd have that stuff already. It is different, it is
> foreign, and it does interact on a more biological level (and as such the
> higher penalties to the aural template) than cyberware does. Cyberware just
> creates blanks in the aura. Bioware creates large-scale changes. The same
> aura with blanks is closer to normal than an altered aura.

That depends on how you look at it. Is a person with a prosthetic limb
closer to a person with a real limb, or is a person with no limb closer to a
person with a real limb? In functionality and appearance, the prosthetic
limbed person is much closer to the real limbed person than the person with
no limb. In strict analysis and compositional determination, the prosthetic
limbed person would be quite different however. (And magic is about
subjective rationalisations and appearances after all...) :-) Besices,
cybertech, does it not, explains Essence loss os a detachment of the astral
body from the physical body, rather than as a deterioration of the astral
body.

Anyway, either way one looks at it, and wether you're correct in you're
assumption or not, how does this explain the greater loss suffered by
magicians upon bioware implantaion as comapred to mundanes? To both it will
either alter (or detach) their aura to the same degree. Even though Mr Sam
may not give a rats patootie about the loss (or detachment), it _still_
occurs (the same as Essence loss still happens to him the same as a
magician, only it impacts much more nastily on a magician). And since it
still occurs to both no matter what, then the same effect should be occuring
to both, should it not? Other, side, effects may happen to the magician
(such as magic loss due to Essecne loss) which would not happen to the
mundane however.

The point in question is that bioware has different base effect on mundanes
and the magicially active, while it should have the same base effect on both
and other bad side efects on magicians. (Like cyberware does - it reduced
the Essence of both by the same degree, and it also reduced the magically
active characters Magic attribute by the same degree.)

----------
Rat writes:

> [Explaination of Essence snipped]

I thought that with the advent of cybertechnology that Essence was more of a
measure of the 'connectedness' of the physical body to the astral body. You
described it as the general state of well being of the astral body, which is
technicaly different (although it does not matter which way it is
interpreted really).

> Magicians are even more sensitive to changes in their aural patterns,
> as it is their auras that shape and form magical energies into usable
> forms. This is not limited to the "unnatural" things such as
> cyberwear. Improperly healed wounds cause a similar disruption in the
> magician's aural pattern.

Actually, improperly healed wounds can only reduce the magicians Magic
attribute, not his Essence. Although on page 42 the rules do say "Cyberware
implants and improperly healed damage reduce this rating." in refernce to
Essence, there is _no_ other rule that I could find refering to this again.

> That last statement is important. While biotech is "natural" in that
> it is living tissue, it is *different* from the magician's own
> tissues. The difference may be minimal, but even that is enough to
> cause sympathetic disruptions in the magician's astral body, just as
> scar tissue does. And scar tissue has the *exact* *same* DNA as the
> magician's healthy tissue.

So you're saying that magicians, simply becasue they are magicians and
therefore more sensitive to the integrity (or their connection to if viewed
from the cybertech viewpoint) of their astral bodies, they suffer to a
greater degree from implantations and the like?

OK, hypothesis 1: The magician who doesn't know he's a magician.

Ok, lets say Sam, who has the Gift but doesn't know it, goes out and decides
to cyber and bio himself up. He consults medical journals (:-)) and decides
how much cyber he can safely jam into his body along with how much bio. Say
he decides upon 5 Essence worth and 3 Body Index worth, which would be
perfectly OK for a normal mundane. Unfortunately for Sam, he karks it in
surgery because his Essence ends up at -2. Bummer.

Hypothesis 2: The Burned out mage.

Say Paul, the rapidly burning out magician, decides to go the whole hog and
get 6 Essence worth of cyber and bio implanted into his body ("Frag this
magic crap!"). Lets say he gets 3 Essence worth of cyberware and 3 Body
index of bioware (which for him, since he's a magician, also costs 3
Essence). Now, assuming that he is not an initiate, he now has a Magic
attribute of zero, and thus becomes mundane. But, as he is now mundane,
bioware does not cost Essence for him, so his Esence suddenly jumps to 3.
Or does it? If it does, then how or why is this so - Essence loss is
_permanent_ by the rules. If it doesn't, then is it not more than a little
rough on him?

> Is that good enough?

For me, no it is unfortunately not.

----------
Mike Broadwater writes:

> Wrong. You magic rating is your essence rounded (down I believe) + init.
> grade. So if you're not an intiate, and you get a wound that heals bad and
> you lose a point of magic, your magic is 5 and you're essence is six. If
> you then decide to get cyber eyes (because, hey, at this point, why not?)
> then your essence is 5.8, which rounds down to 5, so you're magic is the
> same.

This is _one_ /interpretation/ of the rules, yes. The other is that a
magicians Magic attribute is equal to his Essence rounded down, less any
other losses (such as those due to Stim patches, Deadly wounds and Ally
creation), plus any points gained through initiation. This is the view that
I use, and I (therefore) feel that it is more logical. After all, with your
view, a magician could create an Ally, spend the required one Magic point,
and then go and get cybered for a Magic point at no extra expense. Kind of
silly and even munchkinous in my view.

> Cyberware and bioware cost essence (it's in the rules, and I gave my
> rather long winded explination last week) _not_ magic. You show me where it
> says in any book that cyberware and bioware cost _magic_ and I'll eat my
> black book.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly that _in_the_rules_ both cyberware and bioware
cost Essence for magicians. It is there in plain black and white. The
point of this debate, which you appear to have missed, is that bioware
costing Essence for magicians is both illogical and unbalanced.

> And for those who think that bioware costs essence, what tremendous leap in
> flawed logic did you use to reach that conclussion. I checked my ShadowTech
> book, and it clearly says that mages lose essence. Nothing about lose of
> magic, unless it's lose due to the bio/cyber ware.

Those of us who think that bioware costs Magic, rather than Essence, do so
because it makes sense, not becasue it says to in any rule. Let me explain:

Say Mad Dog mundane goes out and gets 6 Body Index worth of bioware stuffed
into his body. The disadvantage (other than financial and legal of course)
is that there is now a +3 target number modifier to attempts to magically
heal Mad Dog. Assuming he has an Essence of 6, then a standard Treat spell
would require 5's to heal Mad Dog.

Now say Madder Dog magician decides to go out and get 6 Body Index of
bioware crammed into his body. For him, this costs 6 Essence, and also
gives him a Body Index of 6. A standard Treat spell would now require 11's
to affect Madder Dog.

See the problem?

We all agree that the implanation of bioware into a magician _will_
detrimentally affect his ability to use magic, right? But do we agree that
it also damages (or disconnects) his aura more than it does a mundane (ie,
costs Essence also)? Why should the implantation of bioware into a magically
active individual separate him from his aura (or damage his aura, depending
on the philosophy you take) _more_ than it does a mundane? It may affect
their other paranormal abilities (namely spell casting), but why should it
affect their overall general state of well being in a much more adverse
manner?

This is why we choose, rather than reduce the magicians Essence by the Body
Index of the implanted bioware, to instead reduce his Magic attribute. The
magician then has the same negative effects of the bioware as a mundane has,
_plus_ he loses Magic into the bargain. The loss of magic represents the
greater sensitivity of the magician to alterations in his aura (or
disconnections in his aura if you follow the path of cyberetech) as compared
to a mundane.

Make sense?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au

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Message no. 113
From: Larry <lomion@********.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 11:15:49 -0500
At 01:32 04/01/96 -3800, Damion Milliken wrote:
<<Really BIG Snip>>
>OK, hypothesis 1: The magician who doesn't know he's a magician.
>
>Ok, lets say Sam, who has the Gift but doesn't know it, goes out and decides
>to cyber and bio himself up. He consults medical journals (:-)) and decides
>how much cyber he can safely jam into his body along with how much bio. Say
>he decides upon 5 Essence worth and 3 Body Index worth, which would be
>perfectly OK for a normal mundane. Unfortunately for Sam, he karks it in
>surgery because his Essence ends up at -2. Bummer.
No, This I take from Awakenings where they mention that a Mage unaware of
they're latent powers would be unaffected by certain things that would
affect them as a mage, I assume this includes Bioware, if they ever tried to
Awaken the magic tho it wouldn't happen they'd lose it. I'm not sure of the
page but it's in the first half of the book somewhere.

Hypothesis 2: The Burned out mage.
>
>Say Paul, the rapidly burning out magician, decides to go the whole hog and
>get 6 Essence worth of cyber and bio implanted into his body ("Frag this
>magic crap!"). Lets say he gets 3 Essence worth of cyberware and 3 Body
>index of bioware (which for him, since he's a magician, also costs 3
>Essence). Now, assuming that he is not an initiate, he now has a Magic
>attribute of zero, and thus becomes mundane. But, as he is now mundane,
>bioware does not cost Essence for him, so his Esence suddenly jumps to 3.
>Or does it? If it does, then how or why is this so - Essence loss is
>_permanent_ by the rules. If it doesn't, then is it not more than a little
>rough on him?

Actually he's still a mage, but a Burn-out and suffers from the type of
stuff they talk about in Awakenings, sure it's mostly background stuff, but
I'd use it for roleplaying aspects. Once you become an awakened mage, you
always are, even a Burn-out is. (A don't mention Sam Verner or Secrets of
Power those books took many liberties with the system)

<<Another Big Snip>>
Anyway all above by me is my humble opinion.
<Above said while holding a Stoner-Ares in hands, pointing in your general
direction> :>

Larry Sica
lomion@**.cybernex.net
http://www2.cybernex.net/~lomion
-----------------------------------------------
"I see the eyes but not the tears
This is my affliction"
>From "Eyes that last I saw in tears", T.S. Eliot
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 114
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 96 12:13:23 +1030
>That depends on how you look at it. Is a person with a prosthetic limb
>closer to a person with a real limb, or is a person with no limb closer to a
>person with a real limb? In functionality and appearance, the prosthetic
>limbed person is much closer to the real limbed person than the person with
>no limb. In strict analysis and compositional determination, the prosthetic
>limbed person would be quite different however. (And magic is about
>subjective rationalisations and appearances after all...) :-)

*sigh* A prothestic limb, 90's style is something you wear, the same way
you wear clothes. It may be attached in some way, in some cases, but it
doesn't have the invasive connections cyberware has. It is particularly
lacking a neural interface. What's the result? No Essence loss...


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realizedthat a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent infinding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 115
From: "Damion Milliken" <dam01@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 20:54:03 +1000 (EST)
Robert Watkins writes:

> *sigh* A prothestic limb, 90's style is something you wear, the same way
> you wear clothes. It may be attached in some way, in some cases, but it
> doesn't have the invasive connections cyberware has. It is particularly
> lacking a neural interface. What's the result? No Essence loss...

Oh, yes, I understand that, and it wasn't what I was getting at. I was
merely pointing out that Topcats statement that someone with a blank in
their aura had an aura more similar to the original than someone with a
modification to their aura was more than a little subjective. It could just
as easily be interpreted that someone who has their original aura modified
has an aura that is more similar to their original than someone who is
simply missing a bit. The prosthetic limb bit was just an analogy (and a
bad one for the particular topic).

----------
Larry writes:

> >OK, hypothesis 1: The magician who doesn't know he's a magician.
>
> No, This I take from Awakenings where they mention that a Mage unaware of
> they're latent powers would be unaffected by certain things that would
> affect them as a mage, I assume this includes Bioware, if they ever tried to
> Awaken the magic tho it wouldn't happen they'd lose it. I'm not sure of the
> page but it's in the first half of the book somewhere.

Aha, I haven't yet purchases Awakenings, so I hadn't realsied that.
However, it seems to me that what it's getting at is that an unawakened
magician would not suffer the Essence loss for bioware implantation, until
he awakened. That could be bad for him. If an unawakened magician has 3
Essence worth of cyberware, and 3.1 Body Index worth of bioware, and has his
magic awakened, he'd promptly kark it...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au

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Message no. 116
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 08:09:49 -0800
Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> *sigh* A prothestic limb, 90's style is something you wear, the same
> way you wear clothes. It may be attached in some way, in some cases,
> but it doesn't have the invasive connections cyberware has. It is
> particularly lacking a neural interface. What's the result? No Essence
> loss...
> Hold on to your shorts boys & girls! There are currently people with
invasive implants to augment hearing in the here & now. Yes it is a
direct neural input I know two people with these so far, one is a NamVet
Marine, the other is a moderately retarded young man born with no bones
in his ears (stirup, anvil, that sort of thing). In Both cases the
nerves are not damaged but the supportive & receptive structures of the
ear are.

Headline Number Two National Medical Services, Inc. (A prosthetics
research compaqny) is working on several different projects involving
direct neural I/O devices. Univ. Nebr. @ Omaha Med Center has a couple
of these projects which have produced 7 working prototypes:

Single Leg -- Hip Joint connection, artificial joint
Both Legs -- Pelvic augmentation
Fore arm/hand -- Thumb & 2 fingers so far or thumb & "4 fingers"
(works as one finger), replaces tissue from the elbow
down
All of these require an invasive connection to bone and nervous tissue.
Bone for anchors
Nerves for data contacts -- aka - smartlinks -- mounted on the
face of the stump
The units are quick change connector equiped.

more later.
Message no. 117
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 17:01:13 -0600
At 01:32 AM 4/1/96 -3800, you wrote:
>OK, I couldn't resist putting in my two pesos worth on the great "bioware
>does(n't) cost essence for magicians" debate:

I'm seeing a bit more than two pesos here... ;P

>TopCat writes:
>> Bioware can be BASED on yor own DNA (protein matched and such) but it isn't
>> your strict DNA or you'd have that stuff already. It is different, it is
>> foreign, and it does interact on a more biological level (and as such the
>> higher penalties to the aural template) than cyberware does. Cyberware just
>> creates blanks in the aura. Bioware creates large-scale changes. The same
>> aura with blanks is closer to normal than an altered aura.

>That depends on how you look at it. Is a person with a prosthetic limb
>closer to a person with a real limb, or is a person with no limb closer to a
>person with a real limb? In functionality and appearance, the prosthetic
>limbed person is much closer to the real limbed person than the person with
>no limb. In strict analysis and compositional determination, the prosthetic
>limbed person would be quite different however. (And magic is about
>subjective rationalisations and appearances after all...) :-) Besices,
>cybertech, does it not, explains Essence loss os a detachment of the astral
>body from the physical body, rather than as a deterioration of the astral
>body.

Prothetics are nothing like bioware. Bioware is exceedingly invasive (more
so even than most cyberware) as it works on an organic level, modifying
things that normally work according to your genetics into things that
operate far differently (and for the most part, better).

Now, to further explain my "hole is better than changed" philosophy...

First off, arms are a very poor subject to make a bioware argument on simply
because there aren't any bioware arms.

As is stressed throughout several sourcebooks, magically active people are
more dependent on the "naturalness" of their bodies than mundanes. This is
the reason why magically active people also lose essence when they add
bioware to themselves.

"But why don't mundanes also lose it?!" Because their bodies handle it
better. They also handle all sorts of things better than magically active
people (healing being the top of the list).

"But, but... why?!" Because bioware takes a natural function of your body
and alters it beyond the body's normal means in an _organic_ manner.
Cyberware is wholly artificial. With bioware, you are adding things that
will change how your body works in countless biochemical ways by augmenting
many organs that aren't meant to be augmented (throw some new organic part
onto my liver that isn't normally on anyone's liver and certainly hasn't
been on mine and a whole horde of biochemical conflicts are going to
happen). With cyberware, the "meat" portion of the body ends at the 'ware.
Cyberware does what it does through technological means in a process that is
perfected in 205X. Many people forget that bioware isn't the most stable
stuff out there.

I've kinda drifted, but from that bit above you can (hopefully) see my point
because magically active people people are more sensitive to changes in the
state of their bodies and bioware changes the body organically/biochemically
(which is worse than changing it technologically, which has been perfected).

>The point in question is that bioware has different base effect on mundanes
>and the magicially active, while it should have the same base effect on both
>and other bad side efects on magicians.

I don't believe that it should have the same base effect on magically active
people as it does on mundanes and I believe that is what FASA has gotten
across in that rule.


>[snipped some Rat stuff]

>[and Damion did say...]
>So you're saying that magicians, simply becasue they are magicians and
>therefore more sensitive to the integrity (or their connection to if viewed
>from the cybertech viewpoint) of their astral bodies, they suffer to a
>greater degree from implantations and the like?

Yes, they do. Especially in the case of organic implants.

>Ok, lets say Sam, who has the Gift but doesn't know it, goes out and decides
>to cyber and bio himself up. He consults medical journals (:-)) and decides
>how much cyber he can safely jam into his body along with how much bio. Say
>he decides upon 5 Essence worth and 3 Body Index worth, which would be
>perfectly OK for a normal mundane. Unfortunately for Sam, he karks it in
>surgery because his Essence ends up at -2. Bummer.

Yup, that's the breaks. He propbably should've had someone check him out on
the astral first. I'ts not like 2 out of 3 characters out there aren't
magically active nowadays...

>Hypothesis 2: The Burned out mage.

>Say Paul, the rapidly burning out magician, decides to go the whole hog and
>get 6 Essence worth of cyber and bio implanted into his body ("Frag this
>magic crap!"). Lets say he gets 3 Essence worth of cyberware and 3 Body
>index of bioware (which for him, since he's a magician, also costs 3
>Essence). Now, assuming that he is not an initiate, he now has a Magic
>attribute of zero, and thus becomes mundane. But, as he is now mundane,
>bioware does not cost Essence for him, so his Esence suddenly jumps to 3.
>Or does it? If it does, then how or why is this so - Essence loss is
>_permanent_ by the rules. If it doesn't, then is it not more than a little
>rough on him?

The essence stays gone (per rules). He drove himself to 0 essence, so he
pays the price. It was his decision and he knew what he was getting into.
Burned out mages are also kind of a subset and a more often the exception
than the rule. Show of hands out there, who plays a burned out mage? Ok,
now of those who would cyber/bio him to a 0 essence (hoping that you got a
good doc and the dice are lucky, btw)?


>[Mike Broadwater...]
>> And for those who think that bioware costs essence, what tremendous leap in
>> flawed logic did you use to reach that conclussion. I checked my ShadowTech
>> book, and it clearly says that mages lose essence. Nothing about lose of
>> magic, unless it's lose due to the bio/cyber ware.

Because they (the magically active) lose essence, they lose magic also.
Magic = essence(rounded down) + initiate grade. I think you even said that
earlier...

>We all agree that the implanation of bioware into a magician _will_
>detrimentally affect his ability to use magic, right? But do we agree that
>it also damages (or disconnects) his aura more than it does a mundane (ie,
>costs Essence also)?

Yes, I agree...

------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 118
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 15:25:37 PST
>"But why don't mundanes also lose it?!" Because their bodies handle it
>better. They also handle all sorts of things better than magically active
>people (healing being the top of the list).
Uh...

I don't see any seperate healing rules for magicians.
I see another part, but that's different.

Or you could say that EVERYONE loses magic, but if your magic is 0 or
below, you can't do anything magical, and you can't initiate. No point
in writing it down.
Message no. 119
From: "Damion Milliken" <dam01@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 18:20:35 +1000 (EST)
TopCat writes:

> I'm seeing a bit more than two pesos here... ;P

Yeah, sorry - you know how it is, I got carried away...and looking back over
this post I seem to have done it again.

> Bioware is exceedingly invasive (more so even than most cyberware)...

That's the bit that I don't agree with (see later). But first:

> As is stressed throughout several sourcebooks, magically active people are
> more dependent on the "naturalness" of their bodies than mundanes. This is
> the reason why magically active people also lose essence when they add
> bioware to themselves.

Yes, I agree that magically active individuals are more dependant on their
bodies 'naturalness' than are mundanes. But this is so only in a limited
context: their magic. In all other respects, mundanes bodies and their
cares for them are the same as magicians.

> "But why don't mundanes also lose it?!" Because their bodies handle it
> better. They also handle all sorts of things better than magically active
> people (healing being the top of the list).

Magically active persons handle healing exactly the same as mundanes do. Or
at least they do, if they wish to risk the integrity of their magic
abilities. It is the dangers to their _magic_ abilities that force them to
be more careful about healing, not the danegrs to them in any other fasion.

In my view a similar sort of situation should hold when it comes to other
sorts of things. What sets magicians apart from mundanes is, obviously
enough, their ability to perform magic. As they wish to keep this ability
intact, they must be more careful about what they do to their bodies (hence
the +2 TN for healing, Magic loss on deadly wounds etc).

Bioware interfers with the integrity of the human body. To mundanes, this
is unimportnat unless they pack _way_ too much into themselves. To
magicians, it is much more noticeable. It's much more of a concern for them
because if their bodies are not pristine, then their magic suffers. And it
should be their _Magic_ that suffers, not any other aspect. Magicians still
have the same basic human aural template, and the addition of cyberware and
bioware will screw with this aural template in the same way as a mundanes.
The affect of the addition of bioware and cyberware to the magicians magical
abilities however is much more pronounced.

To me Magic is much more sensitive to the bodies condition than is Essence.
It is reduced upon wounding, while Essence is not, and so on. So while
bioware does not directly reduce Essence, (instead there is a limit to how
much the body can cope with), it still plays havoc with the magicians
ability to use magic properly. Hence a reduction in his Magic attribute.

Besides, if bioware costs Essence for magicians, what is basically being
stated is that the aura of a magician with 6 Body Index of bioware is
_equivalent_ to the aura of a mundane with 6 Body Index of bioware _and_ 6
Essence worth of cyberware. Both need the same TN to cast a Treat spell
upon (11). I find this particular situation totally ridiculous. It's one
of those 'double jeopardy' effects again.

> "But, but... why?!"

You characterise me too well <grin>.

> [Notes on how bioware works.]

Yup.

> Cyberware does what it does through technological means in a process that is
> perfected in 205X. Many people forget that bioware isn't the most stable
> stuff out there.

But it is though. It regenerates and heals within the body naturally.
Cyber most certainly doesn't. And the last thing I'd call MBW is 'stable'.
Cyberware does what it does through the "BFI" route (Brute Force and
Ignorance). Bioware works by more subtle means - it modifies and
'naturally' (organically) boosts already existing bodily organs and
functions.

To me something that is a little different than the original is closer to
the original than something that is simply lacking altogether. Someone with
augmented muscles is closer to the way they were before than someone with
replaced muscles. But this is a matter of subjective opinion I guess.

> I've kinda drifted, but from that bit above you can (hopefully) see my point
> because magically active people people are more sensitive to changes in the
> state of their bodies and bioware changes the body organically/biochemically
> (which is worse than changing it technologically, which has been perfected).

Yeah, I can see your point, and how it fits into the SR rules and theory, I
just think that there are different ways of interpreting things that are
just as viable within the rules and theory. (And, obviosuly, in my view,
more correct ;-))

However, back to the point at the start:

> Bioware is exceedingly invasive (more so even than most cyberware)...

That I don't agree with (as I said before). If bioware is _more_ invasive
than cyberware, then why is it so much more Essence friendly? After all,
Essence is the measure of the persons closeness to their original aural
template (or connectedness to their astral form, whichever way you look at
it). And invasive and unnatural things will alter the persons aura from
their template won't they? Cyberware does, and bioware doesn't. To me that
indicates that bioware is not so terribly invasive (at least compared to
cyberware). And you can't die from overinstallation of bioware as you can
from cyberware.

> >We all agree that the implanation of bioware into a magician _will_
> >detrimentally affect his ability to use magic, right? But do we agree that
> >it also damages (or disconnects) his aura more than it does a mundane (ie,
> >costs Essence also)?
>
> Yes, I agree...

Well, unfortunately I don't. I think it disconnects his aura by the same
degree (ie, doesn't cost a magician Essence either), but that it frags his
magic over badly. It's magic that sets magicians apart from mundanes, so
it's magic that should suffer when some activity or thing is worse for
magicians than mundanes. This is so in all of the rules, with the single
exception of bioware.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au

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Message no. 120
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 19:29:36 -0600
>>[I wrote...]
>>"But why don't mundanes also lose it?!" Because their bodies handle it
>>better. They also handle all sorts of things better than magically active
>>people (healing being the top of the list).

>[Bejamin replied...]
>I don't see any seperate healing rules for magicians.
>I see another part, but that's different.

Healing as in "normal" healing. As in the +1 modifier to treating magical
people. Don't any of your characters go to the doctor?

------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 121
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:16:04 -0600
At 06:20 PM 4/3/96 +1000, Damion of more than 2 pesos wrote:
>> Bioware is exceedingly invasive (more so even than most cyberware)
>That's the bit that I don't agree with (see later). But first:


>> As is stressed throughout several sourcebooks, magically active people are
>> more dependent on the "naturalness" of their bodies than mundanes.
This is
>> the reason why magically active people also lose essence when they add
>> bioware to themselves.
>Yes, I agree that magically active individuals are more dependant on their
>bodies 'naturalness' than are mundanes. But this is so only in a limited
>context: their magic. In all other respects, mundanes bodies and their
>cares for them are the same as magicians.

When magicians have to be treated by a doc they take a +2 penalty to their
TN due to the sensitivity of the magicians biological/magical system.
Mundanes don't take this penalty.

>In my view a similar sort of situation should hold when it comes to other
>sorts of things. What sets magicians apart from mundanes is, obviously
>enough, their ability to perform magic. As they wish to keep this ability
>intact, they must be more careful about what they do to their bodies (hence
>the +2 TN for healing, Magic loss on deadly wounds etc).

That doesn't just have to do with losing magic. They heal slower and the
process is more difficult due to the magician's system being so dependent on
its integrity.

>Bioware interfers with the integrity of the human body. To mundanes, this
>is unimportnat unless they pack _way_ too much into themselves. To
>magicians, it is much more noticeable. It's much more of a concern for them
>because if their bodies are not pristine, then their magic suffers. And it
>should be their _Magic_ that suffers, not any other aspect. Magicians still
>have the same basic human aural template, and the addition of cyberware and
>bioware will screw with this aural template in the same way as a mundanes.
>The affect of the addition of bioware and cyberware to the magicians magical
>abilities however is much more pronounced.

A magician's aural template is very different from a mundanes from the
start. Were these two things exactly similar, then I would probably agree.
But magicians have a very different aural template and this is why bioware
effects them differently.

>Besides, if bioware costs Essence for magicians, what is basically being
>stated is that the aura of a magician with 6 Body Index of bioware is
>_equivalent_ to the aura of a mundane with 6 Body Index of bioware _and_ 6
>Essence worth of cyberware. Both need the same TN to cast a Treat spell
>upon (11). I find this particular situation totally ridiculous. It's one
>of those 'double jeopardy' effects again.

No, I am saying that a mundane's aural template isn't effected by bioware.
Though the numbers work the same, the principle is different.

>> "But, but... why?!"
>You characterise me too well <grin>.

I've been on the list for over a year now, I know how this stuff works ;)

>> Cyberware does what it does through technological means in a process that is
>> perfected in 205X. Many people forget that bioware isn't the most stable
>> stuff out there.
>But it is though. It regenerates and heals within the body naturally.
>Cyber most certainly doesn't. And the last thing I'd call MBW is 'stable'.
>Cyberware does what it does through the "BFI" route (Brute Force and
>Ignorance). Bioware works by more subtle means - it modifies and
>'naturally' (organically) boosts already existing bodily organs and
>functions.

Shadowtech pg. 13

"Bioware...(is) still in the testing stages. Because of that, some problems
do exist in teh application of bioware. Most problems stem from inadequate
field-testing or unforseen long-term effects, which are only showing up now
because bioware is such a recent developement. The Gamemaster is free to
make bioware products as reliable or quirky as desired..."

I don't call that stable.

As for the cyberware bit, a body won't start trying to expel cybernetic
system. Cyberware isn't affected by different blood types or DNA, it works
the same way in every body, which bioware won't. MBW is also very stable,
the side-effects of it just aren't very desirable. MBW will always work
fine as long as the mind can handle it.

>To me something that is a little different than the original is closer to
>the original than something that is simply lacking altogether. Someone with
>augmented muscles is closer to the way they were before than someone with
>replaced muscles. But this is a matter of subjective opinion I guess.

Yep. I see bioware as being far more altering to the body than cyberware.
My reasons I've stated many a time. Seems like we're kinda at an impass on
this one. Agree to disagree?

>I just think that there are different ways of interpreting things that are
>just as viable within the rules and theory.

Always are :)

>However, back to the point at the start:
>> Bioware is exceedingly invasive (more so even than most cyberware)...

>...invasive and unnatural things will alter the persons aura from
>their template won't they? Cyberware does, and bioware doesn't. To me that
>indicates that bioware is not so terribly invasive (at least compared to
>cyberware). And you can't die from overinstallation of bioware as you can
>from cyberware.

Ah, but is the aural template not affected at all by the addition of
bioware? It can be detected by assensing (per Awakenings pg. 97) so it must
change something within the aura. And biosystem overstress is as nasty a
way to die as essence loss (which can be avoided thanks to Cybertechnology
*cheer!*).

The aura of a magician and that of a mundane are different. Assensing also
tells us that. Cosmetically different? Nothing is simply cosmetic in the
astral, if it looks different it IS different and that difference has a
meaning. I, in looking at all this, see that this difference may be the
core reason to why bioware also takes essence from magicicians. You,
obviously, see it different. Many others do as well. I don't think
anyone's ready to change their mind on that til Mike Mulvihill comes down
from the mountain with an errata (or at least a reason) written in stone.
Since I've tried to contact him on the matter, I can hope I'll get an answer.

Now, I am about to do something that I hate myself for doing...

Did anyone who was at the legendary Shadowrun 101 conference hear tell of an
answer to this plaguing question? If not, I'll state once again that it was
useless ;)

------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 122
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 19:06:05 PST
>That doesn't just have to do with losing magic. They heal slower and the
>process is more difficult due to the magician's system being so dependent on
>its integrity.
No, you can do it exactly like a mundane if you don't want to worrw
about magic loss.

--
Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)
benjamin@*****.com (NOT whatever happenes to be in the From: line today)

Probably the world's only 14-year-old Weretiger PhysAd

no website
Message no. 123
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 19:08:00 PST
>Ah, but is the aural template not affected at all by the addition of
>bioware? It can be detected by assensing (per Awakenings pg. 97) so it must
>change something within the aura. And biosystem overstress is as nasty a
>way to die as essence loss (which can be avoided thanks to Cybertechnology
>*cheer!*).
That's what the +tn to magical healing is.
Message no. 124
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 18:13:20 -0600
>>That doesn't just have to do with losing magic. They heal slower and the
>>process is more difficult due to the magician's system being so dependent on
>>its integrity.

>No, you can do it exactly like a mundane if you don't want to worrw
>about magic loss.

No, that is for any doctoring test on magicians regardless of whether you
want it or not. This target number penalty will (as a result) make healing
take much longer on magicians due to the difficulty of working with their
systems. Read the section under damage and healing in SRII...


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 125
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 18:17:22 -0600
>>Ah, but is the aural template not affected at all by the addition of
>>bioware? It can be detected by assensing (per Awakenings pg. 97) so it must
>>change something within the aura. And biosystem overstress is as nasty a
>>way to die as essence loss (which can be avoided thanks to Cybertechnology
>>*cheer!*).

>That's what the +tn to magical healing is.

The healing penalty is a side effect of the bioware, yes. But its just
that, a side effect. Why is the side effect there at all? Read that whole
message over again, I'm too tired to quote it all...


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 126
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 16:22:56 PST
>No, that is for any doctoring test on magicians regardless of whether you
>want it or not. This target number penalty will (as a result) make healing
>take much longer on magicians due to the difficulty of working with their
>systems. Read the section under damage and healing in SRII...`

SRII, Page 115:"When a magican... or treated w/out the +2 mod, there is
a risk of magic loss..."

I don't see any mention of the +2 mod on body tests, only medical
skill rolls cuase you can't use the super-jiffy whammo medicines on
the patient.


Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)
benjamin@*****.com (NOT whatever happenes to be in the From: line today)

Probably the world's only 14-year-old Weretiger PhysAd

no website
Message no. 127
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Mages/Adepts and Bioware
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 96 10:29:46 +1030
>No, that is for any doctoring test on magicians regardless of whether you
>want it or not. This target number penalty will (as a result) make healing
>take much longer on magicians due to the difficulty of working with their
>systems. Read the section under damage and healing in SRII...

Read it again: The +2 modifier only comes into effect if the doctor is
taking care not to damage the magician's ability to control magic. If the
+2 modifier is not taken into account (as maybe the case if the magician
is just dropped off at a hospital, say), a roll for magic loss is taken.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realizedthat a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent infinding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/

Further Reading

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