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Message no. 1
From: Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Mage salaries
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:33:36 -0800
Ok. This is safe for everyone to read. No long posts on
elite summoning teams or materials or whatnot. Maybe later
if you're good... :-)

Actually, I was just interested in getting some feedback on what
people think the "going rate" for a mage's salary is in 2057?
Is 100,000 year too small? How about 200,000? How much does
it depend on skill levels and job description (top security
vs. maker-of-spell-locks-for-mundanes)?

- youngin'
Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mage salaries
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 23:05:44 -0500
>Ok. This is safe for everyone to read. No long posts on

Famous last words...."Hey everyone, don't worry, it's sa....<glah, glah>,
[sounds of munching]"

>Actually, I was just interested in getting some feedback on what
>people think the "going rate" for a mage's salary is in 2057?

Okay...I'll warn you....Picture it like Webmasters of today....it's so new,
the going rate changes based on the hour of the day.

>Is 100,000 year too small? How about 200,000? How much does
>it depend on skill levels and job description (top security
>vs. maker-of-spell-locks-for-mundanes)?

I would say you have three factors:

0) (it doesn't change) the person is magical
1) Their level of skills and abilities (High conjuring is a skill, being
fully magical and not an adept is an ability.)
2) How much their job is in demand (two radically different jobs may pay the
same, not based on how dangerous or difficult, but merely on how likely any
given mage is to want that job.)
3) Whether they are a good worker. (Yes, it does matter if this mage gets
along with people)

AS you can guess from previous posts ,#3 is the least important in my mind,
but it is relevant.

Lets take a logical approach:

The minimum mage probably does security or other such for low level
companies. ASsuming weak skills and abilities, and an employer none too
rich, we could expect this guy to live a Medium or High lifestyle.
Medium=5,000per mo, X12`,000 a year, add in insurance and other employment
perks, and estimate you get about 100,000 a year.

More skills¾tter pay. Say High Lifestyle 10,000 X 12= 120,000 plus
perks0,000-200,000 a year.

The Elite: 500,000 a year+ (rare)

The Cutting Edge: Name their price. (bloody rare)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 3
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Mage salaries
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 01:01:26 +0000
In message <199702060033.QAA13407@*****.oce.orst.edu>, Brett Barksdale
<brett@***.ORST.EDU> writes
>Actually, I was just interested in getting some feedback on what
>people think the "going rate" for a mage's salary is in 2057?
>Is 100,000 year too small? How about 200,000? How much does
>it depend on skill levels and job description (top security
>vs. maker-of-spell-locks-for-mundanes)?

I'd say High lifestyle as a conservative minimum: remember, as far as
trained and capable magicians go you're looking at 0.1% of the
population, and the number can't easily be increased by throwing money
at it: magicians are a rare and valuable resource, and the corporation
would use big carrots as well as a hefty stick to make sure that
resource remained under their control and productive.

I'd expect security magicians to get significantly more than a wards-
elementals-and-spell-locks type basic mage, for obvious reasons, but
then the "assembly line" mage would probably be on a fairly decent
commission for every spell lock et cetera (encourages them to greater
diligence).

Just random musings.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 4
From: Slothman <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mage salaries
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:46:16 -0800
At 16:33 2/5/97 -0800, Brett Barksdale wrote:
>Actually, I was just interested in getting some feedback on what
>people think the "going rate" for a mage's salary is in 2057?
>Is 100,000 year too small? How about 200,000? How much does
>it depend on skill levels and job description (top security
>vs. maker-of-spell-locks-for-mundanes)?

I think it would depend a lot on what they do as part of their job.
Take a look at http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/working_world.html
under "Wage Mages" for some notions on that topic. I would expect
most wage mages to be able to pull High lifestyle, if not Luxury,
because they're about half as common as doctors and at least as useful
in a wide variety of contexts.

I figure that many mages are running the shadows so they can get a fake
ID good enough to get back into a cushy job as a wage mage.

One thing that Shadowrun is missing is the ability to generate karma without
going on adventures. This immediately has an effect on the industry:
karma becomes very expensive, so that means there's more of a demand for
orichalcum (so your wage mages can bond foci cheaply) and fetishes (so they
don't need to burn as much on learning spells). I wish they'd addressed
that in the Shadowrun Companion...

--
%%% Slothman slothman@*********.org %%%
%%% "Red sky at morning, time for a nap. %%%
%%% Red sky at night, time for a nap." - cat proverb, Dave McKean, Cages %%%
Message no. 5
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mage salaries
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 03:18:36 -0500
>One thing that Shadowrun is missing is the ability to generate karma without
>going on adventures. This immediately has an effect on the industry:
>karma becomes very expensive, so that means there's more of a demand for
>orichalcum (so your wage mages can bond foci cheaply) and fetishes (so they
>don't need to burn as much on learning spells). I wish they'd addressed
>that in the Shadowrun Companion...

Check out the Karma for Cash option listed in the Companion. Any Karma for
no running option opens itself to abuse, so it's risky, but I know what you
mean....I had the same problem with runners who wanted to learn very basic
skills (level 1 or so) by practicing in game-time. I usually ended up
giving them Karma that they could ONLY spend on that skill, right then and
there.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 6
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Mage salaries
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 01:30:39 +0000
> From: Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
> Subject: Mage salaries

> Actually, I was just interested in getting some feedback on what
> people think the "going rate" for a mage's salary is in 2057?
> Is 100,000 year too small? How about 200,000? How much does
> it depend on skill levels and job description (top security
> vs. maker-of-spell-locks-for-mundanes)?

I dunno....I suppose it should be in the same ballpark as the huge
salary FASAMike gets for working his magic. ROFL!


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 7
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Mage salaries
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:19:51 +0000
On 5 Feb 97 at 17:46, Slothman wrote:
[snip stuff I agree with, or don't care]
> One thing that Shadowrun is missing is the ability to generate karma without
> going on adventures. This immediately has an effect on the industry:
> karma becomes very expensive, so that means there's more of a demand for
> orichalcum (so your wage mages can bond foci cheaply) and fetishes (so they
> don't need to burn as much on learning spells). I wish they'd addressed
> that in the Shadowrun Companion...
They did. See SC, p. 78, "Cash for Karma".

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |Things that try to look |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | like things often do |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | look more like things |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| than things. Well known|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | fact. - E.Weatherwax |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 8
From: Slothman <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mage salaries
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 13:16:11 -0800
At 03:18 2/6/97 -0500, Brett Borger wrote:
>On 5 Feb 97 at 17:46, Slothman wrote:
>>One thing that Shadowrun is missing is the ability to generate karma without
>>going on adventures. This immediately has an effect on the industry:
>>karma becomes very expensive, so that means there's more of a demand for
>>orichalcum (so your wage mages can bond foci cheaply) and fetishes (so they
>>don't need to burn as much on learning spells). I wish they'd addressed
>>that in the Shadowrun Companion...

>Check out the Karma for Cash option listed in the Companion. Any Karma for
>no running option opens itself to abuse, so it's risky, but I know what you
>mean....I had the same problem with runners who wanted to learn very basic
>skills (level 1 or so) by practicing in game-time. I usually ended up
>giving them Karma that they could ONLY spend on that skill, right then and
>there.

>At 15:19 2/6/97 +0000, Sascha Pabst wrote:
>They did. See SC, p. 78, "Cash for Karma".

I have a simple test for whether they actually addressed the issue. Namely:
how does it work for megacorporate employees rather than shadowrunners?

If you can convert cash to karma, this means suddenly the megacorps are going
to funnel huge amounts of cash into their wage mages so they can become
mega-initiates with huge force spells and big foci that don't require much
orichalcum; all the security mages they meet are going to be Grade 7
initiates with force-10 spells and big foci to soak up the drain.

If you don't believe this is an option, then FASA still has not addressed
the issue of how thaumaturgy students in college learn spells, or the
possibility of a runner with no spare karma to spend studying a spell
formula for months while they lay low in order to attempt learning it.

--
%%% Slothman slothman@*********.org %%%
%%% "Red sky at morning, time for a nap. %%%
%%% Red sky at night, time for a nap." - cat proverb, Dave McKean, Cages %%%
Message no. 9
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mage salaries
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:52:50 -0500
Slothman wrote:

<Snip>

> I have a simple test for whether they actually addressed the issue. Namely:
> how does it work for megacorporate employees rather than shadowrunners?

> If you can convert cash to karma, this means suddenly the megacorps are going
> to funnel huge amounts of cash into their wage mages so they can become
> mega-initiates with huge force spells and big foci that don't require much
> orichalcum; all the security mages they meet are going to be Grade 7
> initiates with force-10 spells and big foci to soak up the drain.

> If you don't believe this is an option, then FASA still has not addressed
> the issue of how thaumaturgy students in college learn spells, or the
> possibility of a runner with no spare karma to spend studying a spell
> formula for months while they lay low in order to attempt learning it.

I would rule that they earn karma through practice...just as shooting
targets is good practice, so is shooting live beings. One will just
earn you experience quicker than the other. ;) Thus, give them some
karma to learn skills out of game time, but have them earn it slower
than usual (say 1 or 2 karma per month).

<Snip of signature>

Justin :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 10
From: Steve Collins <steve_collins@********.ALEWIFE.KODAK.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage salaries
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:56:23 U
Mail*Link® SMTP RE>>Mage salaries

>>Check out the Karma for Cash option listed in the Companion. Any Karma =
for
>>no running option opens itself to abuse, so it's risky, but I know what =
you
>>mean....I had the same problem with runners who wanted to learn very =
basic
>>skills (level 1 or so) by practicing in game-time. I usually ended up
>>giving them Karma that they could ONLY spend on that skill, right then =
and
>>there.
>>
>>At 15:19 2/6/97 +0000, Sascha Pabst wrote:
>>They did. See SC, p. 78, "Cash for Karma".
>
>>to which Slothman replied<<
>I have a simple test for whether they actually addressed the issue. =
Namely:
>how does it work for megacorporate employees rather than shadowrunners?
>
>If you can convert cash to karma, this means suddenly the megacorps are =
going
>to funnel huge amounts of cash into their wage mages so they can become
>mega-initiates with huge force spells and big foci that don't require =
much
>orichalcum; all the security mages they meet are going to be Grade 7
>initiates with force-10 spells and big foci to soak up the drain.
>
>If you don't believe this is an option, then FASA still has not addressed
>the issue of how thaumaturgy students in college learn spells, or the
>possibility of a runner with no spare karma to spend studying a spell
>formula for months while they lay low in order to attempt learning it.

Since we are talking primarily about studying things or long term learning =
here why don't we say a character earns his Int/2 in karma every 3 months =
or 6 months spent studying or something like that.
Message no. 11
From: Slothman <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mage salaries
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:21:39 -0800
At 16:56 2/6/97 U, Steve Collins wrote:
>Since we are talking primarily about studying things or long term learning
>here why don't we say a character earns his Int/2 in karma every 3 months or 6
>months spent studying or something like that.

Well, we've just had two different proposals on a learning system. I've got
another one at http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/learning.html that's still
in the middle of playtesting and takes into account how intense a course of
study you're in (and the burnout of studying too hard). But FASA's lack of
addressing of the problem makes it very difficult to figure out the economics
of a karma-intensive activity like magic...

--
%%% Slothman slothman@*********.org %%%
%%% "Red sky at morning, time for a nap. %%%
%%% Red sky at night, time for a nap." - cat proverb, Dave McKean, Cages %%%
Message no. 12
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mage salaries
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:55:41 -0800
On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Brett Barksdale wrote:

> Ok. This is safe for everyone to read. No long posts on
> elite summoning teams or materials or whatnot. Maybe later
> if you're good... :-)
>
> Actually, I was just interested in getting some feedback on what
> people think the "going rate" for a mage's salary is in 2057?
> Is 100,000 year too small? How about 200,000? How much does
> it depend on skill levels and job description (top security
> vs. maker-of-spell-locks-for-mundanes)?
>
> - youngin'
>

Too small. An average runner can pull off about that much in a few
months. Look at the cost of Foci versus the time it takes. I was
thinking about this during the elemental thread, but didn't go beyond the
"Hmmm..I wonder how much they _would_ make.." stage. For some one who is
that rare, especially one who is part of some elite corporate security
department, I'd imagine that they can afford to live a fairly high (or
luxurious) life-style.

~Tim
Message no. 13
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Mage salaries
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:53:17 GMT
Tim Cooper writes
>
> Too small. An average runner can pull off about that much in a few
> months. Look at the cost of Foci versus the time it takes. I was
> thinking about this during the elemental thread, but didn't go beyond the
> "Hmmm..I wonder how much they _would_ make.." stage. For some one who is
> that rare, especially one who is part of some elite corporate security
> department, I'd imagine that they can afford to live a fairly high (or
> luxurious) life-style.
>
Having set about orrialcum manufature in game you can make silly
amounts of money, 1 month netted OVER a million Yen after giving the
Talismonger half do distribute it discretly and his share of selling
it for me!
And that character didn't even have enchanting, didn't need it, isn't
a magic attribute based target number wonderfull when you're grade 5
initiate!

Mark

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Thwap!