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Message no. 1
From: Alexander Jenisch <night@********.CO.AT>
Subject: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:01:40 +0200
I've a question concering mages in space /on space station (ships). Why
can't they cast a spell actually? I think I no that magic comes with
nature (plants, earth, atmosphere) or something like that but I also
think that there is no reason for losing the ability to cast spells. Or
is space nothing 'natural' ? There are molecules, too !

And what about KI adepts. Do they lose their powers off earth?

NT
----------------------------------

Darkness is just absence of light!

----------------------------------
Message no. 2
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:11:14 -0500
----------
> From: Alexander Jenisch <night@********.CO.AT>

> I've a question concering mages in space /on space station (ships). Why
> can't they cast a spell actually? I think I no that magic comes with
> nature (plants, earth, atmosphere) or something like that but I also
> think that there is no reason for losing the ability to cast spells. Or
> is space nothing 'natural' ? There are molecules, too !
That is a matter of much debate <g>.
My personal opinion is that magic is an aspect of life, and that away
from the planet, the life-force is too weak to support magic or astral
space, just like the atmosphere is. Once outside of the magical
"atmosphere" of earth, an Astrally projecting mage is like someone
stepping out of a space station without a space suit... he very messily
decompresses as the pressure of the life inside him can no longer be held
in by his aura, just like the person in space's skin can no longer hold in
the pressure that his insides exert.

> And what about KI adepts. Do they lose their powers off earth?
So far as I know, ki is just another expression of magic... but I don't
know jack about it.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
aka The Human Tangent
************
Three sparks that kindle love: a face, demeanour, speech
Three things that hide ugliness: good manners in the ill-favoured,
skill in a serf, wisdom in the misshapen.
Three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge,
forgetfullness. .
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, knowledge.
Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred, cowardice.
Message no. 3
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:45:17 EDT
In a message dated 4/24/98 8:10:15 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
night@********.CO.AT writes:

> And what about KI adepts. Do they lose their powers off earth?
>
> NT
>
Okay, I give...is this Ki as in the "Chinese/Japanese/Something of Asian
Origin" Ki???

The problem is that the original rule of "magic in space" from First Ed has
remained. It was basically a way for the game to keep itself earthbound, at
least IMO.

Now what the future of the SR Universe holds is anyone's guess.

-K
Message no. 4
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:58:53 -0400
Hi,
Here's an idead. What if you can do magic in space, but it is modified due
to the enviroment. Not sure yet how, but lets take for granted. Another
aspect that would be greatly modified, conjuring spirits. To me, it would be
obvious that the spirits shamans conjure would be very different, since
those given in the Shadowrun books are Earth bound [not planet bound, but
Earth bound] spirits. So, it would be possible that there are spirits in
space that are different from the Earth bound ones, who never come to Earth.

So, with this starter idea, who wants to take the ball from me?

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
Message no. 5
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:07:59 -0500
----------
> From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>

> Here's an idead. What if you can do magic in space, but it is
modified due
> to the enviroment.
> So, with this starter idea, who wants to take the ball from me?

Taking the pass from Kat, Nexx takes it downfield... the goalies way out,
no time to get back... he shoots, HE SCORES!!!! Nexx has won the World
Cup for <insert favorite country here>! Unbelievable! And they said a
fat defenseman would never make anything of himself in this game!

Ok, now that that joke is out of my system, let's move on to something
actually on-topic. Actually, in the idea that magic originates from life,
I had something else in mind that I didn't mention. What if you were to
go to a place with an entirely alien form of life...silicon based methane
breathers, for example (please note that I make no claims of feasibility
here... I'm a history, not biology major). All of the life is based
around these, just like Earth life is based around carbon-based oxygen
breathers. Now, in that environment, would magic work the same as it does
on Earth? I would think not. The alien form of life would breed an alien
form of magic that mages might not be able to grasp.
I think space does have magic, but it is of a form completely alien to
mankind, alien enough that they can never understand it. Its alienness is
deadly to man, not viscously, but rather natively... it just not meant for
man to survive contact with.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
aka The Human Tangent
************
Three sparks that kindle love: a face, demeanour, speech
Three things that hide ugliness: good manners in the ill-favoured,
skill in a serf, wisdom in the misshapen.
Three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge,
forgetfullness. .
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, knowledge.
Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred, cowardice.
Message no. 6
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:55:06 EDT
In a message dated 4/24/98 10:10:25 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
katt@******.NET writes:

> So, with this starter idea, who wants to take the ball from me?
>
>
We've long since played this game, and enjoy seeing "the Ball" in someone
else's hands for a while. We (Mike and I, and the other "silent members" of
the Hoosier Hacker House) have rules on a massively extensive scale concerning
'Space' in general.

As I said in one post, the previous game timeline made it as far as 2117...had
to do a lot back in those days....

-K
Message no. 7
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:52:21 +0100
-----Original Message-----
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 25 April 1998 04:12
Subject: Re: Mages and Space


>----------
>> From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
>
>> Here's an idead. What if you can do magic in space, but it is
>modified due
>> to the enviroment.
>> So, with this starter idea, who wants to take the ball from me?
>
> Taking the pass from Kat, Nexx takes it downfield... the goalies
way out,
>no time to get back... he shoots, HE SCORES!!!! Nexx has won the World
>Cup for <insert favorite country here>! Unbelievable! And they said a
>fat defenseman would never make anything of himself in this game!
>
> Ok, now that that joke is out of my system, let's move on to
something
>actually on-topic. Actually, in the idea that magic originates from life,
>I had something else in mind that I didn't mention. What if you were to
>go to a place with an entirely alien form of life...silicon based methane
>breathers, for example (please note that I make no claims of feasibility
>here... I'm a history, not biology major). All of the life is based
>around these, just like Earth life is based around carbon-based oxygen
>breathers. Now, in that environment, would magic work the same as it does
>on Earth? I would think not. The alien form of life would breed an alien
>form of magic that mages might not be able to grasp.
> I think space does have magic, but it is of a form completely alien
to
>mankind, alien enough that they can never understand it. Its alienness is
>deadly to man, not viscously, but rather natively... it just not meant for
>man to survive contact with.
>


Ooh boy, I've got a feeling that this one is going to get DEEP :)

The point of aliens being completely different, thats cool, probably
feasible, even likely. Now you have to decide, 'what is life'. Eek.
Obviously in SR its more than just chemicals, 'cos you have magic and auras
and stuff. But is life or soul or spirit universal ? I'd go for yes on this
one, with astral space being the same 'space' throughout the physical
universe, but having a 'mana vacuum' between life supporting worlds.

I'd also be reluctant to say there could be no magical activity outside
living atmospheres, you'd just have to have a great deal of control and
power, and you wouldn't be able to do all that much. But that is just IMO, I
hate the word 'can't' :).

Mark
Message no. 8
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:54:18 +0100
-----Original Message-----
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 25 April 1998 04:19
Subject: Re: Mages and Space


>Hi,
> Here's an idead. What if you can do magic in space, but it is
modified due
>to the enviroment. Not sure yet how, but lets take for granted. Another
>aspect that would be greatly modified, conjuring spirits. To me, it would
be
>obvious that the spirits shamans conjure would be very different, since
>those given in the Shadowrun books are Earth bound [not planet bound, but
>Earth bound] spirits. So, it would be possible that there are spirits in
>space that are different from the Earth bound ones, who never come to
Earth.
>
> So, with this starter idea, who wants to take the ball from me?
>


Black hole spirits :)

Supernova spirits :)

Mark
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:49:47 +0100
Alexander Jenisch said on 3:01/25 Apr 98...

> I've a question concering mages in space /on space station (ships). Why
> can't they cast a spell actually? I think I no that magic comes with
> nature (plants, earth, atmosphere) or something like that but I also
> think that there is no reason for losing the ability to cast spells. Or
> is space nothing 'natural' ? There are molecules, too !

It has to do with life, which isn't there in space. Magic needs life (life
and emotions are important on the astral plane, non-living and
non-emotional things aren't), so the answer is quite simple: in space, you
can't cast magic. It doesn't have to do with molecules, but with astral
space.

If you have access to the book Target: UCAS, there is a phenomenon in
there called "voids": areas of astral space where magic is more difficult
to work, and astral space is dangerous for magicians. You could regard
space as one giant void of a high level (with thanks to Mark Steedman).

> And what about KI adepts. Do they lose their powers off earth?

You're using the German edition of the SRII rules, aren't you? In that
case I think it's good to point out that what you call a KI adept, we know
as a "physical adept" -- it would be a wise move to keep this in mind,
else you'll have to explain it to people every other week. Likewise, I
think you'll use the word "con" to refer to a megacorporation somewhere in
the near future. Use "corp" instead, then the English-speaking part of the
list will understand as well.

Oh yeah, and welcome to the list :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's better to have loved and lost
Than to listen to an Olivia Newton John record
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 10
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:15:50 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/98 1:10:11 AM !!!First Boot!!!, night@********.CO.AT
writes:

> I've a question concering mages in space /on space station (ships). Why
> can't they cast a spell actually? I think I no that magic comes with
> nature (plants, earth, atmosphere) or something like that but I also
> think that there is no reason for losing the ability to cast spells. Or
> is space nothing 'natural' ? There are molecules, too !
>
> And what about KI adepts. Do they lose their powers off earth?

Okay NT, time to do some chatting on this topic. And answering the questions
in order.

Because the people (mages) do not as yet have an understanding of how magic
functions within a no-mana zone or within a zone where the mana is so weak
that doing anything active is to be considered dangerous. Ares, in the game,
has been sending ritual materials up to Daedleus (discovered in Cyberpirates I
believe) for some purpose or another.

Space is a natural part of Universe, the only thing is that we still as of yet
have a clear understanding (or should I say better understanding) of what
Space truly is.

As for Chi (which I believe is what you really wanted to say) Magic, it would
have to run with the basic SR line of magic does not work in Space until the
Space Sourcebook comes out sometime next century (and this is something in the
works later on down the road).

I hope I answered your questions well then.

Mike
Message no. 11
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:22:06 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/98 3:07:40 AM !!!First Boot!!!, katt@******.NET
writes:

> Here's an idead. What if you can do magic in space, but it is modified due
> to the enviroment. Not sure yet how, but lets take for granted. Another
> aspect that would be greatly modified, conjuring spirits. To me, it would
be
> obvious that the spirits shamans conjure would be very different, since
> those given in the Shadowrun books are Earth bound [not planet bound, but
> Earth bound] spirits. So, it would be possible that there are spirits in
> space that are different from the Earth bound ones, who never come to
Earth.
>
> So, with this starter idea, who wants to take the ball from me?

Hmmm, getting really close, in fact there is a spirit which according to books
could go into space with little to no problems, the problem is that not
everyone is capable of conjuring them that is all.

Mike
Message no. 12
From: Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:46:02 -0500
On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Airwasp wrote:

> > Here's an idead. What if you can do magic in space, but it is modified due
> > to the enviroment. Not sure yet how, but lets take for granted. Another
> > aspect that would be greatly modified, conjuring spirits. To me, it would
> be
> > obvious that the spirits shamans conjure would be very different, since
> > those given in the Shadowrun books are Earth bound [not planet bound, but
> > Earth bound] spirits. So, it would be possible that there are spirits in
> > space that are different from the Earth bound ones, who never come to
> Earth.
> >
> > So, with this starter idea, who wants to take the ball from me?
>
> Hmmm, getting really close, in fact there is a spirit which according to books
> could go into space with little to no problems, the problem is that not
> everyone is capable of conjuring them that is all.

And those would be?? My guess would be the Loa, who seem to be more like
Free spirits/complete entities than other spirits. Or maybe he's alluding
to the stories by Tom Dowd that refer to Space Magic and Horrable
Creatures (early Horrors). Just remember that in the rules it doesn't say
that Mages die in Space because of Astral Decompression (*pop*) it
accually says that they eighter die, or they come back Mad. I believe if
it was a problem with Astral Decompression none of them would return.

on the subject of PhysAds in space:

I see no problem with PhysAds keeping most of thier powers in
space, because from the way I see it, PhysAds improve thier bodys using
the magic, truning it inward for the most part. The powers that I see
problems with are the external ones such as Distance Strike. comments?

-=>Czar


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Czar Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http://travel.to/czareggbert.empire
mailto: czregbrt@*********.edu
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I lived my life in a ship in a bottle in a world in a glass jar..."
-Mike Fontaine

"CRACK! SMASH! SHATTER!"
-Helen Stunkard
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Message no. 13
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:14:07 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/98 7:46:56 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
czregbrt@*********.EDU writes:

> On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Airwasp wrote:
> > Hmmm, getting really close, in fact there is a spirit which according to
> books
> > could go into space with little to no problems, the problem is that not
> > everyone is capable of conjuring them that is all.
>
> And those would be?? My guess would be the Loa, who seem to be more like
> Free spirits/complete entities than other spirits. Or maybe he's alluding
> to the stories by Tom Dowd that refer to Space Magic and Horrable
> Creatures (early Horrors). Just remember that in the rules it doesn't say
> that Mages die in Space because of Astral Decompression (*pop*) it
> accually says that they eighter die, or they come back Mad. I believe if
> it was a problem with Astral Decompression none of them would return.

I'm gonna give some clarification here. According to the "thematic
description", one of the spirits already detailed can traverse space. But
it's not the Loa, though I am sure Papa Legba would claim such.

And pointing out the "Madness Potential" is a very interesting point. One
that should be considered as much, if not more so, than the "Astral
Decompression" concept, because yes, both comments are made about those that
return from "the borders of Space".

> on the subject of PhysAds in space:
>
> I see no problem with PhysAds keeping most of thier powers in
> space, because from the way I see it, PhysAds improve thier bodys using
> the magic, truning it inward for the most part. The powers that I see
> problems with are the external ones such as Distance Strike. comments?

Actually, there is a single power that has little to nothing to do with the
Astral once it is obtained, by the rules. Initiation is required to develop
it of course. Enhanced Centering, when used for "mundane uses" does not
require Astral Perception or Astral Focus. SO, the use of such in Space is
likely to remain. At least, IMO.

Now, with just a bit more consideration to that....

-K
Message no. 14
From: Alexander Jenisch <night@********.CO.AT>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 16:30:01 +0200
Gurth wrote:
> It has to do with life, which isn't there in space. Magic needs life (life
> and emotions are important on the astral plane, non-living and
> non-emotional things aren't), so the answer is quite simple: in space, you
> can't cast magic. It doesn't have to do with molecules, but with astral
> space.

I always thought that the astral space is just a inverted real one, the
'otherworld' so to say. A plane for sprits, magic and all what comes
with it.

> If you have access to the book Target: UCAS, there is a phenomenon in
> there called "voids": areas of astral space where magic is more difficult
> to work, and astral space is dangerous for magicians. You could regard
> space as one giant void of a high level (with thanks to Mark Steedman).
>
> > And what about KI adepts. Do they lose their powers off earth?
>
> You're using the German edition of the SRII rules, aren't you? In that
> case I think it's good to point out that what you call a KI adept, we know
> as a "physical adept" -- it would be a wise move to keep this in mind,
> else you'll have to explain it to people every other week. Likewise, I
> think you'll use the word "con" to refer to a megacorporation somewhere in
> the near future. Use "corp" instead, then the English-speaking part of the
> list will understand as well.

You're right with your guess. I do use the German edition.
Uhm, sorry. I forgot that this might be another word in English.
I'm always glad if someone attracts my attention on my mistakes. How
else I should learn of them?

>
> Oh yeah, and welcome to the list :)
>

Thanx!

Concerning the p(c)hi(?) adepts:
Their powers may be permanent but they got to them by magic, so there
must be always magic in play when a adept (e.g.) reacts faster than a
norm(?). I think there has to be a certain connection to the astral
plane which gives him his powers in exchange for his magic (I know, they
don't lose it, but they use it in a way). You said that magic got
something to do with life and emotions. Maybe he doesn't lost his
abilities cause he is the source of his magic? Emotions and life! But if
it's enough magic IN the phi adept himself why isn't enough in a mage to
cast a spell? I think you make it yourself to easy, if you think that
emotions are limited to a biosphere? Maybe they fill the whole universe.
I can't believe they're influenced by gravity!

NT
--------------------------------

What last longer: life or death?

--------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: Alexander Jenisch <night@********.CO.AT>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 16:36:27 +0200
Czar Eggbert wrote:

> on the subject of PhysAds in space:
>
> I see no problem with PhysAds keeping most of thier powers in
> space, because from the way I see it, PhysAds improve thier bodys using
> the magic, truning it inward for the most part. The powers that I see
> problems with are the external ones such as Distance Strike. comments?
>

How could you distinguish between inward and outward(?) magic? I now see
the problem is to be more from where they get their powers and if they
hold their powers themselfes or just got a connection to the astral
plane where they get their powers in exchange with their magic. What do
you think about that?
Message no. 16
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:31:30 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
Behalf Of Airwasp
Sent: April 25, 1998 8:16 AM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Re: Mages and Space

As for Chi (which I believe is what you really wanted to say) Magic, it
would
have to run with the basic SR line of magic does not work in Space until the
Space Sourcebook comes out sometime next century (and this is something in
the
works later on down the road).
=====================
Are you sure? Perhaps he did mean Ki. Or are you saying that there are Chi
Adepts but no Ki adepts? I have not read awakenings, or any other book that
mentions them, but would assume if you can have the one, you could have the
other. Excuse me if I err.

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
Message no. 17
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:32:31 -0600
Here's my current philosphy on the problem of magic and space. And
keep in mind that it's just a philosophy.

Astral space is a reflection of the physical world. Astral space
(and to some extent, the physical world) are sustained by mana (that
quasidimensional, poorly known, energy that makes magic possible).

In space there is no physical world for astral space to reflect.
IMHO astral space and mana operate by different rules in space
(causing insanity in those mages that try to project, perceive, or
cast spells) or the lack of reflection creates a direct connection
between the physical world and mana (astral space isn't there to mute
the connection) in which case the excessive drain kills casters (when
physical) or drives them insane (when stun).

Just an idea.

-David
--
"That which we do not know supports that which we know."
- Joseph Campbell
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 18
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:33:00 -0400
> Hmmm, getting really close, in fact there is a spirit which according to books
> could go into space with little to no problems, the problem is that not
> everyone is capable of conjuring them that is all.

I'd go with the spirits of the great fiery firmament, which the Tir na nOg
book describes as basically spirits of the sun: "these fiery spirits have
anaffinity with solar fire, the source of all life on the planet, the all
pervasive light and life-giving warmth of the sun." (p. 143)
Message no. 19
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:58:07 -0500
----------
> From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>

> Ooh boy, I've got a feeling that this one is going to get DEEP :)
Those are the fun ones, though <g>


> But is life or soul or spirit universal ? I'd go for yes on this
> one, with astral space being the same 'space' throughout the physical
> universe, but having a 'mana vacuum' between life supporting worlds.
Even if one allows that the aura is universal, does that mean that it
will be translatable by the human mind? Remember, magic depends on the
mind of the magician to give it form... if he doesn't recognize or have
any framework for understanding that what he's experiencing is life, will
he be able to manipulate the alien energies?

> I'd also be reluctant to say there could be no magical activity outside
> living atmospheres, you'd just have to have a great deal of control and
> power, and you wouldn't be able to do all that much. But that is just
IMO, I
> hate the word 'can't' :).
Where else would you say has a magical atmosphere? Would Mars? Perhaps
one of Jupiter's moons (one of which has conditions for life, but no life
we know of)?

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
aka The Human Tangent
************
Three sparks that kindle love: a face, demeanour, speech
Three things that hide ugliness: good manners in the ill-favoured,
skill in a serf, wisdom in the misshapen.
Three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge,
forgetfullness. .
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, knowledge.
Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred, cowardice.
Message no. 20
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:58:58 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/98 1:08:56 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
nexx@********.NET writes:

> > I'd also be reluctant to say there could be no magical activity outside
> > living atmospheres, you'd just have to have a great deal of control and
> > power, and you wouldn't be able to do all that much. But that is just
> IMO, I
> > hate the word 'can't' :).
> Where else would you say has a magical atmosphere? Would Mars?
> Perhaps
> one of Jupiter's moons (one of which has conditions for life, but no life
> we know of)?
>
There was one other major theory that we use here at "the Hoosier Hacker
House" games. It concerns the Pandora's Box and it's "fragments". There
are
also comments we've used concerning various forces and their distance from the
sun. For instance, in our games, the tides of magic have various levels of
effect on a Solar System scale as well. Mercury has a "mana field" more often
and for longer periods of time than Earth does, as it is closer to the sun
(going on the Firmament concept I just noticed someone picked up upon). Venus
is currently active in our games, Earth is now...Mars is starting to become so
(and with associated games that are forthcoming because of it).

BUT, these are all house rule things of course.
-K
Message no. 21
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:02:43 -0500
----------
> From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
> There are
> also comments we've used concerning various forces and their distance
from the
> sun. For instance, in our games, the tides of magic have various levels
of
> effect on a Solar System scale as well.
<bobbitized>

Interesting theory. Would this mean that the sun is always magical, or
does it also gain its power from a different source? The center of the
galaxy, and there from the center of the universe?

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
"Death by a sword lasts but a moment, but a bard's scorn
lasts forever"
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
"Discretion is the better part of honor.... and innuendo
the better part of humor."
aka Ellegon
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, mortal, for you are
crunchy and good with ketchup."
Message no. 22
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:58:12 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/98 5:10:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
nexx@********.NET writes:

> Interesting theory. Would this mean that the sun is always magical,
> or
> does it also gain its power from a different source? The center of the
> galaxy, and there from the center of the universe?
>
It is it's power source (to put it in extremely simple terms). In the
"Pandora's Box" theory we use, the box broke up into fragments of multiple
size variations. The Sun is one of the "large fragments" of the box. But
because of it's extremely violent/hazardous environment, it isn't "travailable
to" in the more common sense of the term. The Earth is a fragment as well (as
are all the -major- planetary bodies in the system), and as such has an
ambient field of energy. But it's energy field shifts in response to more
powerful fields around it (such as the Sun's changing fields of power).

NO, this does not mean we use a "Livespace Theory" of magic (as per
Spelljammer for AD$D). It just means that occasionally something very subtly
changes in the Sun's "emissions" that triggers the cycles within the solar
system.

It also helped us to explain a story that we later used in concern to Halley's
Comet and what it did to Earth and Mars on it's 2060ish flyby. A MAJOR piece
of arcanum in our games is "Celestial Ice" which is obtained from certain
comets only. Though a few fragments are apparently in other areas (such as in
the poles or within the asteroid field).

-K
Message no. 23
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:59:26 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/98 5:34:10 PM !!!First Boot!!!, jeremiah@********.EDU
writes:

> > Hmmm, getting really close, in fact there is a spirit which according to
> books
> > could go into space with little to no problems, the problem is that not
> > everyone is capable of conjuring them that is all.
>
> I'd go with the spirits of the great fiery firmament, which the Tir na nOg
> book describes as basically spirits of the sun: "these fiery spirits have
> anaffinity with solar fire, the source of all life on the planet, the all
> pervasive light and life-giving warmth of the sun." (p. 143)

Bingo, that was the spirit I was hoping someone would mention.

Mike
Message no. 24
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 09:55:16 +0100
-----Original Message-----
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 25 April 1998 19:32
Subject: Re: Mages and Space


>----------
>> From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
>
>> Ooh boy, I've got a feeling that this one is going to get DEEP :)
> Those are the fun ones, though <g>


I couldn't agree more

>
>
>> But is life or soul or spirit universal ? I'd go for yes on this
>> one, with astral space being the same 'space' throughout the physical
>> universe, but having a 'mana vacuum' between life supporting worlds.
> Even if one allows that the aura is universal, does that mean that
it
>will be translatable by the human mind? Remember, magic depends on the
>mind of the magician to give it form... if he doesn't recognize or have
>any framework for understanding that what he's experiencing is life, will
>he be able to manipulate the alien energies?


IMO, mana is mana, whatever the source. Therefore as long as you know how to
manipulate it on Earth, you could do the same anywhere. Fits in with the
whole universal aura thing. Reading an alien's aura and getting useful
information out of it, that's a whole different kettle of fish, not 'cos the
aura is different, but the details could have a diiferent meaning in that
lifeform.

>
>> I'd also be reluctant to say there could be no magical activity outside
>> living atmospheres, you'd just have to have a great deal of control and
>> power, and you wouldn't be able to do all that much. But that is just
>IMO, I
>> hate the word 'can't' :).
> Where else would you say has a magical atmosphere? Would Mars?
Perhaps
>one of Jupiter's moons (one of which has conditions for life, but no life
>we know of)?

Conditions for life wouldn't be enough, you'd need life present to
'generate' mana to fill the astral vacuum. So I suppose if you came across a
large community of creatures that could actually live in space, they might
have a 'bubble' of active astral around them. Have to be a big community
though.

Mark
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:40:14 +0100
Alexander Jenisch said on 16:30/25 Apr 98...

> I always thought that the astral space is just a inverted real one, the
> 'otherworld' so to say. A plane for sprits, magic and all what comes
> with it.

It is, but I've never thought of it as an "opposite" plane to the physical
one. More like a complimentary one. Magic comes from astral space, but
magic requires life -- the astral plane is brightly lit when there is a
lot of life around (for example in crowded places, or forests) and dark
where there is little or no life (like clean rooms used for electronics
manufacture).

> You're right with your guess. I do use the German edition.
> Uhm, sorry. I forgot that this might be another word in English.
> I'm always glad if someone attracts my attention on my mistakes. How
> else I should learn of them?

It's ot a mistake, it's simply the result of the translation. If you
remember these little things, nobody will be confused (while right now
there are several posts by people who think you want to introduce a new
kind of magician).

> Concerning the p(c)hi(?) adepts:

Physical adepts.

> Their powers may be permanent but they got to them by magic, so there
> must be always magic in play when a adept (e.g.) reacts faster than a
> norm(?).

That's by definition so, isn't it?

> I think there has to be a certain connection to the astral plane which
> gives him his powers in exchange for his magic (I know, they don't lose
> it, but they use it in a way).

Yes. The connection is the same as for a mage, shaman, or any other kind
of magician -- they have "the gift" as some people call it (and, BTW,
which I think sounds very lame; you can just as well call a good sculptor
or painter "gifted").

> You said that magic got something to do with life and emotions. Maybe he
> doesn't lost his abilities cause he is the source of his magic? Emotions
> and life!

No, but unless you're on another inhabited planet, there isn't enough life
around for magic to work. Magicians who try to use magic in space (outside
the earth's gaiasphere) often go horribly insane. There are a few
exceptions, or what look like exceptions, but on the whole it's safe to
say that using magic away from earth is a very bad idea.

> But if it's enough magic IN the phi adept himself why isn't enough in a
> mage to cast a spell? I think you make it yourself to easy, if you think
> that emotions are limited to a biosphere? Maybe they fill the whole
> universe. I can't believe they're influenced by gravity!

Magic is probably a case of "the whole is more than the sum of the parts"
-- sure, the magician is alive and has emotions, but it's not enough to
power the magic. Put 5 billion people and untold zillions of other
creatures and plants on a big metal and rock sphere together with that
magician, and that person has the ability to do magic. Physical adepts
draw their power from astral space as much as a mage or shaman does, just
in another way.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's better to have loved and lost
Than to listen to an Olivia Newton John record
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 26
From: Alexander Jenisch <night@********.CO.AT>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:46:16 +0200
Gurth wrote:
>
> Alexander Jenisch said on 16:30/25 Apr 98...
>
> > Concerning the p(c)hi(?) adepts:
>
> Physical adepts.

I meant the right abbreviation!

> Magic is probably a case of "the whole is more than the sum of the parts"
> -- sure, the magician is alive and has emotions, but it's not enough to
> power the magic. Put 5 billion people and untold zillions of other
> creatures and plants on a big metal and rock sphere together with that
> magician, and that person has the ability to do magic.

So the quantaty not the qualaty is important? I do not agree with that
theory. If magic is just awaken then it might be there 'sleeping' since
very long period, maybe from the beginnig of time and space. I must say
you are right with your behold that it's very bright in astral plan
where there is much life on the other side. But does that mean that you
drain your mana from that sources. Is there a spell so mighty to let
this sources of light (and so life) die? I think this going to be more
and more a religious (i.e. philosophical) question!
IMO there is a kind of ether in space that's focusing mana and this is
the reason why these magicans got insane or were killed. They just to
unexpierienced to control this much mana.

As I think your oppinon on this subject is quite a good one there are a
lot of others that are okay, too. I think this conversiation is going to
far for I can always say the opposite of what you are saying as long as
we don't really know it. Maybe we should consult FASA for they should
put in a page or two on this subject in SRIII?

NT
--------------------------

EVERYTHING is relative? ;)

--------------------------
Message no. 27
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:13:26 -0500
----------
> From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>

> IMO, mana is mana, whatever the source. Therefore as long as you know
how to
> manipulate it on Earth, you could do the same anywhere. Fits in with the
> whole universal aura thing. Reading an alien's aura and getting useful
> information out of it, that's a whole different kettle of fish, not 'cos
the
> aura is different, but the details could have a diiferent meaning in
that
> lifeform.
I see what you're saying now. My next argument was going to be "What if
they didn't recognize it as mana", but you neatly castrated that argument.

> Conditions for life wouldn't be enough, you'd need life present to
> 'generate' mana to fill the astral vacuum. So I suppose if you came
across a
> large community of creatures that could actually live in space, they
might
> have a 'bubble' of active astral around them. Have to be a big community
> though.
Perhaps if they were to build a space archology, with the outer membrane
holding life-filled water (bacteria, plankton) you could build this
"bubble" and take it with you?

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
"Death by a sword lasts but a moment, but a bard's scorn
lasts forever"
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
"Discretion is the better part of honor.... and innuendo
the better part of humor."
aka Ellegon
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, mortal, for you are
crunchy and good with ketchup."
Message no. 28
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:42:22 -0500
----------
> From: Alexander Jenisch <night@********.CO.AT>

> So the quantaty not the qualaty is important?
Not quite. When the cycle is ready for magic to be back, then other
things come into play. For example, while Earth may be in a magical
cycle, there is no guarantee that Mars is, so even if it were terraformed,
magicians might be limited in what they could do there.
Once the cycle is ready, then both quantity and quality come into play.
There has to be a certain amount (no one is sure how much) of life to
generate the aura necessary to use magic. However, if the life is cruel
and degrading, the space becomes toxic, or at least carries a huge
background count.
For example, lets say one established a space colony full of convicts.
Literally full, packed wall to wall, barely any room, except when someone
is dragged off to be killed or interrogated. This colony might generate
enough mana that one could use magic, but astral space would be tainted by
the suffering that was endured, and using magic would be difficult or
corrupting.
OTOH, let's say you established a space colony full of groupies listening
to their favorite band, who is live, on stage. The people are happy and
cheering and dancing as best they can, packed in as they are. Here, if
there were enough of an aura to use magic, your magic wouldn't be tainted
by the negative emotions.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
"Death by a sword lasts but a moment, but a bard's scorn
lasts forever"
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
"Discretion is the better part of honor.... and innuendo
the better part of humor."
aka Ellegon
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, mortal, for you are
crunchy and good with ketchup."
Message no. 29
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:52:48 +0100
-----Original Message-----
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 26 April 1998 16:25
Subject: Re: Mages and Space


>----------
>> From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
>
>> IMO, mana is mana, whatever the source. Therefore as long as you know
>how to
>> manipulate it on Earth, you could do the same anywhere. Fits in with the
>> whole universal aura thing. Reading an alien's aura and getting useful
>> information out of it, that's a whole different kettle of fish, not 'cos
>the
>> aura is different, but the details could have a diiferent meaning in
>that
>> lifeform.
> I see what you're saying now. My next argument was going to be
"What if
>they didn't recognize it as mana", but you neatly castrated that argument.
>
>> Conditions for life wouldn't be enough, you'd need life present to
>> 'generate' mana to fill the astral vacuum. So I suppose if you came
>across a
>> large community of creatures that could actually live in space, they
>might
>> have a 'bubble' of active astral around them. Have to be a big community
>> though.
> Perhaps if they were to build a space archology, with the outer
membrane
>holding life-filled water (bacteria, plankton) you could build this
>"bubble" and take it with you?
>


Ahh, my mistake, bad analogy with the bubble :)

What I was getting at was, rather then having something to 'keep the mana
in' like your outer membrane, you have enough life present to maintain a
region of high mana. I hadn't really thought about whether mana or astral
energy would follow a diffusion gradient, bleeding off from biospheres into
space. Gonna have to think about that one.

Mark
Message no. 30
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:20:14 +0100
Alexander Jenisch said on 13:46/26 Apr 98...

> > > Concerning the p(c)hi(?) adepts:
> >
> > Physical adepts.
>
> I meant the right abbreviation!

Usually, we (i.e. the list) use "physad" as an abbreviation for physical
adept.

> So the quantaty not the qualaty is important? I do not agree with that
> theory. If magic is just awaken then it might be there 'sleeping' since
> very long period, maybe from the beginnig of time and space. I must say
> you are right with your behold that it's very bright in astral plan
> where there is much life on the other side. But does that mean that you
> drain your mana from that sources. Is there a spell so mighty to let
> this sources of light (and so life) die? I think this going to be more
> and more a religious (i.e. philosophical) question!

I can see this going the same direction as the "Foci should be dark in
astral space, not light" thread we had last week...

Look, I'm just coming up with a half-assed explanation that sounds sort of
plausible. They _don't_ stand up to close scrutiny, because hardly any RPG
ever does, especially where magic is concerned. SR's magic system at least
has some explanation for why it does what it does. Just don't try digging
it up too deep, else you'll _always_ run into the kind of thing you're
running into right now.

> As I think your oppinon on this subject is quite a good one there are a
> lot of others that are okay, too. I think this conversiation is going to
> far for I can always say the opposite of what you are saying as long as
> we don't really know it.

Exactly. As there is no real-world thing to compare this to (and I don't
want to go to the "I'm a practicing hermetic mage"-type stuff that some
listmembers apparently believe in -- and here, as a GridSec member, I'll
add: NO replies to this, you have all been told about the magic(k) thread
of 4+ years ago!) we can't really say what's true and what isn't, so to
anything there is a counter-argument that'll eventually have us going in
circles.

Now if you'd said "Guns in SR don't make much sense"... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's better to have loved and lost
Than to listen to an Olivia Newton John record
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 31
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:38:02 -0300
Nexx escreveu:
>
> ----------

> Perhaps if they were to build a space archology, with the outer membrane
> holding life-filled water (bacteria, plankton) you could build this
> "bubble" and take it with you?
>


I'd go for something like a giant greenhouse to make magic work...
Bacteria and
plankton are too simple, maybe they would prevent insanity if the mage
tried to
cast a spell, but still, nothing would happen.

Ubiratan
Message no. 32
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:35:07 -0300
Gurth escreveu:

>
> Magic is probably a case of "the whole is more than the sum of the parts"
> -- sure, the magician is alive and has emotions, but it's not enough to
> power the magic. Put 5 billion people and untold zillions of other
> creatures and plants on a big metal and rock sphere together with that
> magician, and that person has the ability to do magic. Physical adepts
> draw their power from astral space as much as a mage or shaman does, just
> in another way.
>
> --


Has everyone ever tough about how many people are there in 2060? Even
with
VITAS, there would be way more than today's 6 billion...
I figured there would be from 30 to 40 billion inhabitants, but this
is cyberpunk,
so I go for the worse figure, 40 :) . Talk about superpopulation...


Ubiratan
Message no. 33
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:44:10 -0300
Mark Ellis escreveu:

>
> What I was getting at was, rather then having something to 'keep the mana
> in' like your outer membrane, you have enough life present to maintain a
> region of high mana. I hadn't really thought about whether mana or astral
> energy would follow a diffusion gradient, bleeding off from biospheres into
> space. Gonna have to think about that one.
>
> Mark

I don't think it difuses, I thinhk gaiashpere (nice name!) is like an
gigantic aura... It goes up to a certain point, then stops, with no
loss.
And someone was saying on other post that no one does magic in Mars
(or other planet)
if it isn't awakened... I say a planet Awakens when the beings in it
Awaken, so they could
cast is wherever there's mana. If it wasn't like that, no one would cas
magic
outside of Gaiasphere...


Ubiratan
Message no. 34
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:37:25 -0500
> Has everyone ever tough about how many people are there in 2060? Even
> with
> VITAS, there would be way more than today's 6 billion...
> I figured there would be from 30 to 40 billion inhabitants, but this
> is cyberpunk,
> so I go for the worse figure, 40 :) . Talk about superpopulation...

Population is about 3 billion as of '54, at least according to DNF in the
Tir Tairngire sourcebook (pg 20)

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
"Death by a sword lasts but a moment, but a bard's scorn
lasts forever"
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
"Discretion is the better part of honor.... and innuendo
the better part of humor."
aka Ellegon
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, mortal, for you are
crunchy and good with ketchup."
Message no. 35
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:57:13 -0300
Nexx escreveu:
>
> > Has everyone ever tough about how many people are there in 2060? Even
> > with
> > VITAS, there would be way more than today's 6 billion...
> > I figured there would be from 30 to 40 billion inhabitants, but this
> > is cyberpunk,
> > so I go for the worse figure, 40 :) . Talk about superpopulation...
>
> Population is about 3 billion as of '54, at least according to DNF in the
> Tir Tairngire sourcebook (pg 20)
>

I don't have access to such books, they just don't exist down here...
Plus, I don't
use most of official stuff and I want a dark world in my campaign. It
would be nice to develop
an "alternative" to that official figure...

Ubiratan
Message no. 36
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:25:13 -0500
----------
> From: Ubiratan P. Alberton <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>

> > > Has everyone ever tough about how many people are there in 2060?

> > Population is about 3 billion as of '54, at least according to
DNF in the
> > Tir Tairngire sourcebook (pg 20)
> >
> Plus, I don't
> use most of official stuff and I want a dark world in my campaign.

You asked, lad.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
"Death by a sword lasts but a moment, but a bard's scorn
lasts forever"
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
"Discretion is the better part of honor.... and innuendo
the better part of humor."
aka Ellegon
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, mortal, for you are
crunchy and good with ketchup."
Message no. 37
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:46:56 EDT
In a message dated 4/26/98 3:16:18 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR writes:

> Has everyone ever tough about how many people are there in 2060? Even
> with
> VITAS, there would be way more than today's 6 billion...
> I figured there would be from 30 to 40 billion inhabitants, but this
> is cyberpunk,
> so I go for the worse figure, 40 :) . Talk about superpopulation...
>
Absolutely, NO FRAGGING WAY!!! Resource rush alone would overwhelm that
possibility. Oh no, 3 bil minimum to 6 bil maximum IMO. More than that, and
going to space would be the ONLY way to save things...for needs of room
alone...

-K
Message no. 38
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:51:54 +0100
And verily, did Katt Freyson hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Hi,
| Here's an idead. What if you can do magic in space, but it is modified due
|to the enviroment. Not sure yet how, but lets take for granted. Another
|aspect that would be greatly modified, conjuring spirits. To me, it would be
|obvious that the spirits shamans conjure would be very different, since
|those given in the Shadowrun books are Earth bound [not planet bound, but
|Earth bound] spirits. So, it would be possible that there are spirits in
|space that are different from the Earth bound ones, who never come to Earth.

Void elementals anyone?
:)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 39
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:04:27 +0100
Ubiratan P. Alberton said on 16:35/26 Apr 98...

> Has everyone ever tough about how many people are there in 2060?
> Even with VITAS, there would be way more than today's 6 billion... I
> figured there would be from 30 to 40 billion inhabitants, but this is
> cyberpunk, so I go for the worse figure, 40 :) . Talk about
> superpopulation...

We did some semi-educated guesswork about this a few months ago. The
opinions varied a lot, and I don't remember the eventual outcome, but I do
know we didn't think it was 30+ billion people.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
It's better to have loved and lost
Than to listen to an Olivia Newton John record
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 40
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:15:00 +0100
And verily, did Czar Eggbert hastily scribble thusly...
|And those would be?? My guess would be the Loa, who seem to be more like
|Free spirits/complete entities than other spirits. Or maybe he's alluding
|to the stories by Tom Dowd that refer to Space Magic and Horrable
|Creatures (early Horrors). Just remember that in the rules it doesn't say
|that Mages die in Space because of Astral Decompression (*pop*) it
|accually says that they eighter die, or they come back Mad. I believe if
|it was a problem with Astral Decompression none of them would return.

That depends.
If they sense the "wrongness" just at the point of opening up to the astral,
they may be able to pull back.

They'd still suffer massive damage, which would invariably drive them mad
and possibly cost them essence, but they'd life to bibble another day.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 41
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:18:21 +0100
And verily, did Nexx hastily scribble thusly...
| I see what you're saying now. My next argument was going to be "What if
|they didn't recognize it as mana", but you neatly castrated that argument.

Please don't say that word...

<crosses legs protectively>
:)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 42
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:06:34 -0500
> And verily, did Nexx hastily scribble thusly...
> | I see what you're saying now. My next argument was going to be
"What if
> |they didn't recognize it as mana", but you neatly castrated that
argument.
>
> Please don't say that word...
>
> <crosses legs protectively>
> :)

Which word? Castrate? Well, let's just say that's what sneaks into your
vocabulary when you hang around agriculture majors when lambing season
comes around.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
"Death by a sword lasts but a moment, but a bard's scorn
lasts forever"
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
"Discretion is the better part of honor.... and innuendo
the better part of humor."
aka Ellegon
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, mortal, for you are
crunchy and good with ketchup."
Message no. 43
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:16:35 -0500
>
>And what about KI adepts. Do they lose their powers off earth?
>


Good question! Do Physical Adepts lose their powers if they leave the
gaiashpere? Or have they internalized their magic to that it remains
with them? What about powers like Astral Perception?

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Message no. 44
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:19:58 -0700
----------
> From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Mages and Space
> Date: Saturday, April 25, 1998 2:58 PM
>
> In a message dated 4/25/98 1:08:56 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> nexx@********.NET writes:
>
> > > I'd also be reluctant to say there could be no magical activity
outside
> > > living atmospheres, you'd just have to have a great deal of control
and
> > > power, and you wouldn't be able to do all that much. But that is
just
> > IMO, I
> > > hate the word 'can't' :).
> > Where else would you say has a magical atmosphere? Would
Mars?
> > Perhaps
> > one of Jupiter's moons (one of which has conditions for life, but no
life
> > we know of)?
> >
> There was one other major theory that we use here at "the Hoosier Hacker
> House" games. It concerns the Pandora's Box and it's "fragments".
There
are
> also comments we've used concerning various forces and their distance
from the
> sun. For instance, in our games, the tides of magic have various levels
of
> effect on a Solar System scale as well. Mercury has a "mana field" more
often
> and for longer periods of time than Earth does, as it is closer to the
sun
> (going on the Firmament concept I just noticed someone picked up upon).
Venus
> is currently active in our games, Earth is now...Mars is starting to
become so
> (and with associated games that are forthcoming because of it).
>

I actually had an idea for an awakened Mars at one point... my logic was a
bit different, but also flawed so I won't embarress my self by repeating it
here... but I went with the Burroughs view of Mars, with meta-types based
off the races from the ERB books... I also envisioned it being a bit
farther into the future.
Message no. 45
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:05:33 -0400
Nexx wrote:
>> | I see what you're saying now. My next argument was going to be
>"What if
>> |they didn't recognize it as mana", but you neatly castrated that
>argument.
>>
>> Please don't say that word...
[snip]
> Which word? Castrate? Well, let's just say that's what sneaks into
>your
>vocabulary when you hang around agriculture majors when lambing season
>comes around.

Oooh. Most spells in SR are those that are useful to shadowrunners
(why bother printing stuff people won't use?), but magic has to be
used by others... Why not farmers? A farming mage would be in
high demand amongst the farming community. A Castrate spell would
be clean, simple and fast with no risk of infection etc...

Not to mention excellent for intimidation purposes. :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 46
From: Alexander Jenisch <night@********.CO.AT>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:12:07 +0200
rabiola wrote:>
> Good question! Do Physical Adepts lose their powers if they leave the
> gaiashpere? Or have they internalized their magic to that it remains
> with them? What about powers like Astral Perception?
>
> Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com

Hm. I got lots of very different answers about that question now. All
put together in a pot and fine ground would give:

They've got certain abilities that can be used but there are ones they
can not use! Cool, eh? *g* I'm not sure what abilities I logically guess
they can use which doesn't affect the surrounding or concerns the
surrounding in a magical way. That's all to say for noone really knows
it. :)

I'll write a email to FASA tomorrow in hope they would put one ore two
pages about the 'magic in space' topic in general in SRIII!

Does anyone of the (German) list members know why it's called 'KI-Adept'
in the German handbook?

NT
Message no. 47
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:40:42 EDT
In a message dated 4/27/98 5:52:44 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK writes:

> Void elementals anyone?
> :)
>
Been there, done that...ask Wigs...we're about to...Nope....sorry, can't say
it...Bruce and Duncan may read it and kill me....Mike too for that matter...

-K
Message no. 48
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:32:55 -0600
At 15:05 27/04/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Oooh. Most spells in SR are those that are useful to shadowrunners
>(why bother printing stuff people won't use?),

Because very few people are runners. This is my gripe with most RPG's :)

> but magic has to be
>used by others... Why not farmers? A farming mage would be in
>high demand amongst the farming community. A Castrate spell would
>be clean, simple and fast with no risk of infection etc...
>
>Not to mention excellent for intimidation purposes. :-)

James, you are evil. I'm getting to like you and your ideas >:)

-Adam J
-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
Message no. 49
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:32:12 -0500
> high demand amongst the farming community. A Castrate spell would
> be clean, simple and fast with no risk of infection etc...
>
> Not to mention excellent for intimidation purposes. :-)

Yes, but how are you going to prove you have it?

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
"Death by a sword lasts but a moment, but a bard's scorn
lasts forever"
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
"Discretion is the better part of honor.... and innuendo
the better part of humor."
aka Ellegon
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, mortal, for you are
crunchy and good with ketchup."
Message no. 50
From: "Mark C. Farrington" <alareth@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:08:12 -0400
> >Oooh. Most spells in SR are those that are useful to shadowrunners
> >(why bother printing stuff people won't use?),

Because it makes for good role playing. I have a mage that took various types
of alteration spells and uses them in his beauty salon to make a living. It
makes for a unique and playable character.
--
Mark C. Farrington
ICQ# 11468823
Stellar Visions - http://surf.to/stellar-visions
Home of the Stellar Visions Webring for astronomy sites
Message no. 51
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:54:56 +0100
And verily, did Nexx hastily scribble thusly...
|
|> high demand amongst the farming community. A Castrate spell would
|> be clean, simple and fast with no risk of infection etc...
|>
|> Not to mention excellent for intimidation purposes. :-)
|
|Yes, but how are you going to prove you have it?

"You see that dog over there...?" >>>CASTRATE<<<
"Next time, that's you!"

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 52
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:04:31 +0100
And verily, did Mark C. Farrington hastily scribble thusly...
|
|> >Oooh. Most spells in SR are those that are useful to shadowrunners
|> >(why bother printing stuff people won't use?),
|
|Because it makes for good role playing. I have a mage that took various types
|of alteration spells and uses them in his beauty salon to make a living. It
|makes for a unique and playable character.

Also, think about spells like Fashion, Makeover, Healthy Glow, etc....
Now, which shaman would LOVE those spells....?

I'll give you a couple of clues...

Only non-human living thing on the mining ship Red Dwarf....
Likes playing with his food.....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 53
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:13:02 -0500
----------
> From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
> Also, think about spells like Fashion, Makeover, Healthy Glow, etc....
> Now, which shaman would LOVE those spells....?

Aside from the obvious answer of Mr. "I am a Fish" <g>, how about
any
shaman who doesn't want to look like a shaman? Of course, one thing to
point out is that, technically, you can make your heavy security armor
look like that nice, legal jeans and a long sleeved shirt you're fond of,
without altering its protective value one bit... Sure, the TN is high,
but it sure beats getting shot.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
"Death by a sword lasts but a moment, but a bard's scorn
lasts forever"
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
"Discretion is the better part of honor.... and innuendo
the better part of humor."
aka Ellegon
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, mortal, for you are
crunchy and good with ketchup."
Message no. 54
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:14:17 -0500
----------
> From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
> |Yes, but how are you going to prove you have it?
>
> "You see that dog over there...?" >>>CASTRATE<<<
> "Next time, that's you!"

True... its also a really effective way of confusing the hell out of those
hellhound guard dogs...

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
"Death by a sword lasts but a moment, but a bard's scorn
lasts forever"
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
"Discretion is the better part of honor.... and innuendo
the better part of humor."
aka Ellegon
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, mortal, for you are
crunchy and good with ketchup."
Message no. 55
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:39:37 +0100
And verily, did Nexx hastily scribble thusly...
|> Also, think about spells like Fashion, Makeover, Healthy Glow, etc....
|> Now, which shaman would LOVE those spells....?
|
| Aside from the obvious answer of Mr. "I am a Fish" <g>,

Nahhh, Rimmer was an Ex-human. He's been dead for 3 million years.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 56
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:34:47 -0500
----------
> From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
> | Aside from the obvious answer of Mr. "I am a Fish" <g>,
>
> Nahhh, Rimmer was an Ex-human. He's been dead for 3 million years.

'Course, its also arguable as to whether or not he could truly have been
classified as alive 3 million years ago...
Message no. 57
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:18:31 -0300
Nexx escreveu:
>
> ----------
> > From: Ubiratan P. Alberton <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
>
> > > > Has everyone ever tough about how many people are there in 2060?
>
> > > Population is about 3 billion as of '54, at least according to
> DNF in the
> > > Tir Tairngire sourcebook (pg 20)
> > >
> > Plus, I don't
> > use most of official stuff and I want a dark world in my campaign.
>
> You asked, lad.
>

Yeah, I wanted to hear the official figures, but got sort of
disappointed with them :) .

Ubiratan
Message no. 58
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:28:23 -0300
Gurth escreveu:
>
> Ubiratan P. Alberton said on 16:35/26 Apr 98...
>
> > Has everyone ever tough about how many people are there in 2060?
> > Even with VITAS, there would be way more than today's 6 billion... I
> > figured there would be from 30 to 40 billion inhabitants, but this is
> > cyberpunk, so I go for the worse figure, 40 :) . Talk about
> > superpopulation...
>
> We did some semi-educated guesswork about this a few months ago. The
> opinions varied a lot, and I don't remember the eventual outcome, but I do
> know we didn't think it was 30+ billion people.
>
>

Of course, in this kind of world life is even harsher, since it's
worth less...
Something like "World population is going down this year... again." :)


Ubiratan
Message no. 59
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:25:31 -0300
Ereskanti escreveu:
>
> In a message dated 4/26/98 3:16:18 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR writes:
>
> > Has everyone ever tough about how many people are there in 2060? Even
> > with
> > VITAS, there would be way more than today's 6 billion...
> > I figured there would be from 30 to 40 billion inhabitants, but this
> > is cyberpunk,
> > so I go for the worse figure, 40 :) . Talk about superpopulation...
> >
> Absolutely, NO FRAGGING WAY!!! Resource rush alone would overwhelm that
> possibility. Oh no, 3 bil minimum to 6 bil maximum IMO. More than that, and
> going to space would be the ONLY way to save things...for needs of room
> alone...
>
> -K


Maybe not 40 bi, but some place between 25-35 would seem
appropriate. Of course,
even the megacorps would be extremelly careful about recycling stuff,
with large factory
complexes and stuff. In 2060, there should be processes that allow
nearly perfect recycling,
with no loss of quality. Fuels would be methane or improved versions of
alcohol, besides electric
power provided by orbiting satellites and cold-fusion nuclear generators
(THAT part is in the basic
book, and I say oil ended about 2045 anyway :) ). Mining on the moon,
Mars and the Asteroid Belt
compensates for the now scarce mineral reserves on Earth. Speaking of
wich, what exactly is there in
space? I mean, we talked about mages in space, but how far mankind could
have gone in 2060?

Ubiratan
Message no. 60
From: Geoff Morochnick <bodiam@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:42:58 -0400
Ereskanti wrote:

> In a message dated 4/26/98 3:16:18 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR writes:
>
> > Has everyone ever tough about how many people are there in 2060? Even
> > with
> > VITAS, there would be way more than today's 6 billion...
> > I figured there would be from 30 to 40 billion inhabitants, but this
> > is cyberpunk,
> > so I go for the worse figure, 40 :) . Talk about superpopulation...
> >
> Absolutely, NO FRAGGING WAY!!! Resource rush alone would overwhelm that
> possibility. Oh no, 3 bil minimum to 6 bil maximum IMO. More than that, and
> going to space would be the ONLY way to save things...for needs of room
> alone...
>
> -K

Space neds wouldn't matter.... no matter how much you hear about population
overcrowding, we have a heck of a lot of space... this planet could easily have
40 billion people on it... there'd be more cities, and there wouldn't be enough
resources to accomodate them, perhaps, but space needs woulnd't figure in until
we hit about 50 trillion

--
G.I. Morochnick
Let us so live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry.
-Mark Twain
bodiam@**********.com
http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/8427
Message no. 61
From: NEWSHADOW <NEWSHADOW@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:06:47 EDT
In a message dated 98-04-27 20:43:31 EDT, you write:

> but space needs woulnd't figure in until
> we hit about 50 trillion

I haven't studied world resources much so don't exactly how much population
growth the world could support, but the figure of 50 trillion seems a little
large. How did you come up with a figure like that?

Always looking for answers,

SHADOW
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/6852/index.html
Message no. 62
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:23:38 EDT
In a message dated 4/27/98 4:33:56 PM US Eastern Standard Time, fro@***.AB.CA
writes:

> A farming mage would be in
> >high demand amongst the farming community. A Castrate spell would
> >be clean, simple and fast with no risk of infection etc...
> >
> >Not to mention excellent for intimidation purposes. :-)
>
> James, you are evil. I'm getting to like you and your ideas >:)
>
There is one thing I would have to think of, and I am sorry to put a small
dampener on such wickedly perverse thinking...Shadowrun magic isn't really
good at the "one part of the body" concept (no "Slay Hand" spells FE).
The
only exception I can think of to this would be a "Wither" spell....which might
be two or three times more intimidating... :)

-K
Message no. 63
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:33:41 EDT
In a message dated 4/27/98 5:57:11 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK writes:

> |Yes, but how are you going to prove you have it?
>
> "You see that dog over there...?" >>>CASTRATE<<<
> "Next time, that's you!"
>
YIPE YIPE YIPE YIPE YIPE......

-K
Message no. 64
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:36:22 EDT
In a message dated 4/27/98 6:23:58 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
nexx@********.NET writes:

> > "You see that dog over there...?" >>>CASTRATE<<<
> > "Next time, that's you!"
>
> True... its also a really effective way of confusing the hell out of those
> hellhound guard dogs...
>
Actually, I wouldn't suggest this on a Hellhound or Barghest....especially the
Barghest...it sees the spell coming -straight for it- and automatically
defends...and either way, it yelps or whines, you pay the price BURN or
RUN....your choice :)

-K
Message no. 65
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 03:20:46 -0500
>
>Astral space is a reflection of the physical world. Astral space
>(and to some extent, the physical world) are sustained by mana (that
>quasidimensional, poorly known, energy that makes magic possible).
>
>In space there is no physical world for astral space to reflect.
>IMHO astral space and mana operate by different rules in space
>(causing insanity in those mages that try to project, perceive, or
>cast spells) or the lack of reflection creates a direct connection
>between the physical world and mana (astral space isn't there to mute
>the connection) in which case the excessive drain kills casters (when
>physical) or drives them insane (when stun).
>


What about a child that comes of age in outer space and has magical
ability, learning how magic works in his environment, not trying to work
magic as it was learned on earth and its astral space?

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Message no. 66
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:22:24 +0100
rabiola said on 8:16/27 Apr 98...

> Good question! Do Physical Adepts lose their powers if they leave the
> gaiashpere? Or have they internalized their magic to that it remains
> with them? What about powers like Astral Perception?

Using astral perception in space is probably the dumbest thing you can do,
together with casting a spell or trying to conjure a spirit. Using magic
is what drives magicians insane, so IMHO active use of a physical adept
power will A) not work, and B) be dangerous to the physad. Passive powers,
like Improved Ability will most likely just stop working, because if the
physad would go insane because of them it would mean they can never take a
semi-ballistic, for example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Neighbors, let us join today in the holy love of God and money
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 67
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:29:40 EDT
In a message dated 4/27/98 9:03:54 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Ereskanti@***.COM
writes:

> > Void elementals anyone?
> > :)
> >
> Been there, done that...ask Wigs...we're about to...Nope....sorry, can't
say
> it...Bruce and Duncan may read it and kill me....Mike too for that
matter...
>
> -K

K ... I have not asked anything about the pbem yet, returning the favor with
the home game (which is going to become far more interesting after reading
something very interesting).

Mike
Message no. 68
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:32:26 +0100
And verily, did NEWSHADOW hastily scribble thusly...
|
|In a message dated 98-04-27 20:43:31 EDT, you write:
|
|> but space needs woulnd't figure in until
|> we hit about 50 trillion
|
|I haven't studied world resources much so don't exactly how much population
|growth the world could support, but the figure of 50 trillion seems a little
|large. How did you come up with a figure like that?

Welll...
It depends whos numbering system you use.
In ours, the number 50 trillion is only 50 Billion.
50 Trillion would have trouble all fitting on a planet the size of Saturn.

MOTE: The correct, i.e. British, numbering system has 1 billion as 1 million
million, not one thousand million....
One Trillion would be 1 billion billion. (1 followed by 24 '0's)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 69
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:56:34 -0500
On 28 Apr 98 at 3:20, rabiola wrote:

> What about a child that comes of age in outer space and has magical
> ability, learning how magic works in his environment, not trying to
> work magic as it was learned on earth and its astral space?

Sounds sorta like Otaku, doesn't it? Interesting thought.

--
=================================================================
-DREKHEAD- drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 70
From: Johan Felt <is97jfa@*******.HK-R.SE>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:16:26 +0200
Drekhead wrote:

> On 28 Apr 98 at 3:20, rabiola wrote:
>
> > What about a child that comes of age in outer space and has magical
> > ability, learning how magic works in his environment, not trying to
> > work magic as it was learned on earth and its astral space?
>
> Sounds sorta like Otaku, doesn't it? Interesting thought.

I should think that a child who was magical active wouldn't "awaken" as a
magician before returning to Earth. Because he has to tap into the
astralplane. If you read Awakenings (p.15 "Becoming Prairi Dog") they
speak about "the sky is calling" and so on.

// Johan Fält
Message no. 71
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 05:02:47 +0000
> > but space needs woulnd't figure in until
> > we hit about 50 trillion
>
> I haven't studied world resources much so don't exactly how much population
> growth the world could support, but the figure of 50 trillion seems a little
> large. How did you come up with a figure like that?
>
> Always looking for answers,

Just leaping in here..

It will not be the need for room that takes people into space. At
least not at first. Why?

Before you create a space habitat, or a space colony, you would have
populated the oceans and the arctic, and the antarctic. While
impractical, difficulat, and expensive, it is FAR less so than
populating space. Layered subsurface cities, subterranean or
underground habitats would also be feasible... even floating cities.
Huge archologies, kilometers in height and width.. cities expanding
in height and depth as well as width. Food would be a challenge, but
with ample power sources (fusion), algae could be grown anywhere.

With a setup like that, you can reach 50 trillion.

There's a lot of room on this planet for people to live, and it will
be a long, long time before we are *forced* into space. But we'll go
into space a long, long time before we have to.

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 72
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:17:36 EDT
In a message dated 4/28/98 3:33:04 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM writes:

> What about a child that comes of age in outer space and has magical
> ability, learning how magic works in his environment, not trying to work
> magic as it was learned on earth and its astral space?
>
For some reason, I foresee this kind of situation as possibly the first
"Metamagical Adept" that would come about. Please note, IMO, the Metaplanes
have little do with the actual Astral Plane. IF you can establish a link to
them (aka, Initiation), then you can perform magic to varying extents in
"Space". Please note though, your "Metamagic Attribute" (aka, Grade)
becomes
the basis for drain/damage test level comparisons. We also require special
skills (Metamagic Skill; as a stand alone) in order to perform the magic, as
you have to learn how to directly utlize Metanatural Forces instead of "Astral
Energy" when you cast your spells.

And Spirits??? Oh, that's a HUGE story...

-K
Message no. 73
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:48:50 EDT
In a message dated 4/28/98 8:57:26 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
drekhead@***.NET writes:

> > What about a child that comes of age in outer space and has magical
> > ability, learning how magic works in his environment, not trying to
> > work magic as it was learned on earth and its astral space?
>
> Sounds sorta like Otaku, doesn't it? Interesting thought.
>
Now that I think about it, it could be another variation that most SR players
occasionally look at ...

Psionics

To us, the term is "Psychonetics", and the list of what can and cannot happen
with those abilities get nuts. IF the Awakenings variation on "Psionics" is
utilized, then I could see problems. If home grown rules are developed, then
maybe, just maybe things would be different.

-K
Message no. 74
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:49:56 -0400
Nexx wrote:
>> high demand amongst the farming community. A Castrate spell would
>> be clean, simple and fast with no risk of infection etc...
>>
>> Not to mention excellent for intimidation purposes. :-)
>
>Yes, but how are you going to prove you have it?

Just make it a permanent spell (like Heal). They just start to wither
away - if the spell is dropped, they'll return to normal. If it's
sustained for 10 rounds, it'll be permanent.

James Ojaste
Message no. 75
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:53:15 -0400
Ereskanti wrote:
>> A farming mage would be in
>> >high demand amongst the farming community. A Castrate spell would
>> >be clean, simple and fast with no risk of infection etc...
>> >
>> >Not to mention excellent for intimidation purposes. :-)
>>
>> James, you are evil. I'm getting to like you and your ideas >:)
>>
>There is one thing I would have to think of, and I am sorry to put a small
>dampener on such wickedly perverse thinking...Shadowrun magic isn't really
>good at the "one part of the body" concept (no "Slay Hand" spells
FE). The
>only exception I can think of to this would be a "Wither" spell....which
>might
>be two or three times more intimidating... :)

Shadowrun can handle the "one part of the body" just fine - what about
Heal? Control Thoughts? Control Actions? Control ... well let's
just leave that there, shall we? :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 76
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:58:17 -0400
Adam J wrote:
>>Oooh. Most spells in SR are those that are useful to shadowrunners
>>(why bother printing stuff people won't use?),
>
>Because very few people are runners. This is my gripe with most RPG's :)

Yeah, but what can you do?

>> but magic has to be
>>used by others... Why not farmers? A farming mage would be in
>>high demand amongst the farming community. A Castrate spell would
>>be clean, simple and fast with no risk of infection etc...
>>
>>Not to mention excellent for intimidation purposes. :-)
>
>James, you are evil. I'm getting to like you and your ideas >:)

Heh. I've just been repressing my EGM side for too long. Of course,
that was mainly because I hadn't actually been GMing until last year
and I didn't want to give *my* GMs any nasty ideas. ;-)
James Ojaste
Message no. 77
From: Geoff Morochnick <bodiam@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:06:54 -0400
> > but space needs woulnd't figure in until
> > we hit about 50 trillion
>
> I haven't studied world resources much so don't exactly how much population
> growth the world could support, but the figure of 50 trillion seems a little
> large. How did you come up with a figure like that?
>
> Always looking for answers,
>
> SHADOW

I had been reading an article about overcrowding, and supposedly, if everyone
in the world lived in a population density roughly equal to a nice, sprawling US
suburb, the world population could fit into Europe. Figure in that there's gotta
be some room that are totally uninhabitable (e.g.: mountainous cliffs) and
technically, you could cram everyone in a relatively spacious population density
a few thousand times more than we have now.

--
G.I. Morochnick
Writing comes easy. All you have to do is stare
at a piece of paper until your forehead bleeds.
-- Douglas Adams
bodiam@**********.com
http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/8427
Message no. 78
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:11:40 +0100
Spike said on 13:32/28 Apr 98...

> MOTE: The correct, i.e. British, numbering system has 1 billion as 1 million
> million, not one thousand million....

You mean one thousand million, surely. In English, 10^6 = million, 10^9 =
billion, and 10^12= Idon'tknowusepowersoftenit'smucheasier :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Neighbors, let us join today in the holy love of God and money
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 79
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:09:37 -0500
----------
> From: Ojaste,James [NCR] <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
> Just make it a permanent spell (like Heal). They just start to wither
> away - if the spell is dropped, they'll return to normal. If it's
> sustained for 10 rounds, it'll be permanent.

Course, they're not going to know if they're withering because of your
spellcasting or because the troll is now picking his teeth with a
bayonet...
Message no. 80
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:21:49 EDT
In a message dated 4/28/98 3:10:57 PM !!!First Boot!!!, runefo@***.UIO.NO
writes:

> Before you create a space habitat, or a space colony, you would have
> populated the oceans and the arctic, and the antarctic. While
> impractical, difficulat, and expensive, it is FAR less so than
> populating space. Layered subsurface cities, subterranean or
> underground habitats would also be feasible... even floating cities.
> Huge archologies, kilometers in height and width.. cities expanding
> in height and depth as well as width. Food would be a challenge, but
> with ample power sources (fusion), algae could be grown anywhere.
>
> With a setup like that, you can reach 50 trillion.
>
> There's a lot of room on this planet for people to live, and it will
> be a long, long time before we are *forced* into space. But we'll go
> into space a long, long time before we have to.

Before the population could ever reach those stratospheric levels in terms of
numbers, technology in terms of recycling and air purification and production
would need to be enhanced royally.

Mike
Message no. 81
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:18:23 +1000
Ojaste, James writes:
>
>Shadowrun can handle the "one part of the body" just fine - what about
>Heal? Control Thoughts? Control Actions? Control ... well let's
>just leave that there, shall we? :-)


Actually, no it doesn't... using your examples:
Heal: Heals the whole body. Note that there is no option to just, say, heal
the arm.
Control Thoughts: It's a full-control spell, with a specific manifestation:
The victim's thoughts are controlled. But you control all the thoughts
(well, conscious ones), not just the ones you want.
Ditto Control Actions, and other Controls.

SR Magic, because it's aura-based, affects all of the individual(s) targeted
to cause the effect.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 82
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:00:10 +1000
Gurth writes:
>> MOTE: The correct, i.e. British, numbering system has 1 billion as 1
million
>> million, not one thousand million....

>You mean one thousand million, surely. In English, 10^6 = million, 10^9 =
>billion, and 10^12= Idon'tknowusepowersoftenit'smucheasier :)


Nope, that's the American (and now default scientific, I think) system. The
British (I wouldn't call it _correct_, but it's certainly the original)
system is compared below.

10^6 = 1 million
10^9 = 1 billion (US) vs 1 thousand million
10^12 = 1 trillion (us) vs 1 billion
10^15 = 1 quadrillion (us) vs 1 thousand billion
10^18 = 1 quintillion (us) vs 1 million billion
10^21 = 1 sextillion (us) vs 1 thousand million billion
10^24 = 1 septillion (us) vs 1 trillion.
.
.
.
10^(somelargenumber - 3) = (no us name) vs 1 thousand million billion
trillion
10^somelargenumber = (still no us name) vs 1 quadrillion.

The names of the numbers past septillion are octillion, nonillion, and
decillion. Don't know past that, but I do know that 10^100 is a googol, and
10^(10^(10^100)) is a googolplex.

Gee, powers of ten _are_ a lot easier.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 83
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:18:52 -0500
>> > What about a child that comes of age in outer space and has magical
>> > ability, learning how magic works in his environment, not trying to
>> > work magic as it was learned on earth and its astral space?
>>
>> Sounds sorta like Otaku, doesn't it? Interesting thought.
>
>I should think that a child who was magical active wouldn't "awaken" as
a
>magician before returning to Earth. Because he has to tap into the
>astralplane. If you read Awakenings (p.15 "Becoming Prairi Dog") they
>speak about "the sky is calling" and so on.
>


Are you saying that someone with the metagene would not ever awaken if
they were not living within the influence of the gaiasphere? What if
the sun or moon called to him as a totem?

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Message no. 84
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:01:26 +0100
Robert Watkins said on 17:00/29 Apr 98...

> >You mean one thousand million, surely. In English, 10^6 = million, 10^9 =
> >billion, and 10^12= Idon'tknowusepowersoftenit'smucheasier :)
>
> Nope, that's the American (and now default scientific, I think) system.

Ah. Another problem solved. IIRC in most European languages (at least
Germanic ones), 10^12 is a billion, but when you read English-language
texts it always talks about 10^9 as a billion. So now I know where the
confusion comes from: those damn Americans again :)

> Gee, powers of ten _are_ a lot easier.

Definitely.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Neighbors, let us join today in the holy love of god and Money
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 85
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:08:26 +0100
And verily, did Gurth hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Spike said on 13:32/28 Apr 98...
|
|> MOTE: The correct, i.e. British, numbering system has 1 billion as 1 million
|> million, not one thousand million....
|
|You mean one thousand million, surely. In English, 10^6 = million, 10^9 =
|billion, and 10^12= Idon'tknowusepowersoftenit'smucheasier :)

Nope. One thousand million in Britain is One thousand million.
One Billion is definately one million million.
It's just that as always, the americans always think they're right, and
people over here start using THIER system...

I refuse to sell out....

:)

10^12 = 1 Billion
10^24 = 1 Trillion

It also tends to remove the need for silly terms like Gazillion and so on...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 86
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:39:06 +0100
And verily, did Robert Watkins hastily scribble thusly...
|Nope, that's the American (and now default scientific, I think) system. The
|British (I wouldn't call it _correct_, but it's certainly the original)
|system is compared below.

If you think about it, the original system is more sensible....
It certainly cuts out all those silly names like quintillion.
(At least, until you get to VERY large numbers)

|The names of the numbers past septillion are octillion, nonillion, and
|decillion. Don't know past that, but I do know that 10^100 is a googol, and
|10^(10^(10^100)) is a googolplex.
|
|Gee, powers of ten _are_ a lot easier.

True, but who would EVER need a number the size of a googleplex.
There aren't that many quarks in the universe.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 87
From: Alexander Jenisch <night@********.CO.AT>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:41:56 +0200
Spike wrote:
> |The names of the numbers past septillion are octillion, nonillion, and
> |decillion. Don't know past that, but I do know that 10^100 is a googol, and
> |10^(10^(10^100)) is a googolplex.
> |
> |Gee, powers of ten _are_ a lot easier.
>
> True, but who would EVER need a number the size of a googleplex.
> There aren't that many quarks in the universe.

A mathematician or a physican! Who needs about 27 Dimensions?
Message no. 88
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:51:23 -0400
Robert Watkins wrote:
>
>>Shadowrun can handle the "one part of the body" just fine - what about
>>Heal? Control Thoughts? Control Actions? Control ... well let's
>>just leave that there, shall we? :-)
>
>Actually, no it doesn't... using your examples:

Actually, yes it does (depending on how you interpret the rules).
Using my examples:

>Heal: Heals the whole body. Note that there is no option to just, say, heal
>the arm.

No wound may be healed more than once by magic. What about new
wounds? Presumably no problem, but allowing any extra successes
to heal old wounds is munchkinous (the old "I'll give him a L wound
and try again"). So the magic is only affecting the new wounds.

>Control Thoughts: It's a full-control spell, with a specific manifestation:
>The victim's thoughts are controlled. But you control all the thoughts
>(well, conscious ones), not just the ones you want.

Yes, but it affects only thoughts - only the mind. It doesn't affect
what his foot thinks of his nostril.

>Ditto Control Actions, and other Controls.

Eh, yes you have full body control, but the mage can say "raise your
hand" and the magic knows what the hand is.

>SR Magic, because it's aura-based, affects all of the individual(s) targeted
>to cause the effect.

I believe the "Control Thoughts" spell is probably closest to what
I had in mind. It controls only thoughts - no other part of the
body has "thoughts", so no other part is affected. Why not "Control
Testicles"?

I just remembered the Increase/Decrease Attribute spells - those
affect only a certain aspect of the body (the target is physically
the whole body, yes, but only a certain aspect of it).

What about Nutrition? Fast? They affect the stomach and the mind's
perception of the stomach.

Magic is magic - it can do what it likes.

James Ojaste

>
Message no. 89
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:57:28 -0400
Spike wrote:
>|> MOTE: The correct, i.e. British, numbering system has 1 billion as 1
>million
>|> million, not one thousand million....
>|
>|You mean one thousand million, surely. In English, 10^6 = million, 10^9 =
>|billion, and 10^12= Idon'tknowusepowersoftenit'smucheasier :)
>
>Nope. One thousand million in Britain is One thousand million.
>One Billion is definately one million million.
>It's just that as always, the americans always think they're right, and
>people over here start using THIER system...

Americans always think they're right - the real problem is that they've
got such good marketing skills that they manage to convince others
that they're right too. I'm used to 1 billion meaning 1 thousand
million myself.
>
>I refuse to sell out....

Heh - I make sure to always spell colour, odour etc. with a 'u', and
cringe when somebody spells "night" as "nite". :-P

>10^12 = 1 Billion
>10^24 = 1 Trillion

Bah. 10^12 = 10^12. Much clearer.

>It also tends to remove the need for silly terms like Gazillion and so on...

Well, since "gazillion" typically means "lots and lots" (and since I'm
unaware of any scientific definition of "lots and lots"), I won't
worry too much about it. :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 90
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:10:19 EDT
In a message dated 4/29/98 3:34:08 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM writes:

> >I should think that a child who was magical active wouldn't "awaken" as
> a
> >magician before returning to Earth. Because he has to tap into the
> >astralplane. If you read Awakenings (p.15 "Becoming Prairi Dog") they
> >speak about "the sky is calling" and so on.
> >
> Are you saying that someone with the metagene would not ever awaken if
> they were not living within the influence of the gaiasphere? What if
> the sun or moon called to him as a totem?

VERY VERY good question, one that would go a long way towards things.

Strange, Mr. Kenson has been extremely quiet of late...

-K
Message no. 91
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:56:00 -0500
On 29 Apr 98 at 14:51, Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:

> Actually, yes it does (depending on how you interpret the rules).
> Using my examples:
>
> >Heal: Heals the whole body. Note that there is no option to just, say, heal
> >the arm.
>
> No wound may be healed more than once by magic. What about new
> wounds? Presumably no problem, but allowing any extra successes to
> heal old wounds is munchkinous (the old "I'll give him a L wound and
> try again"). So the magic is only affecting the new wounds.

True, but if a character has several wounds, (for example, 3 2-box
wounds, which would be just over Moderate total), the mage can't
specifically heal just one or two of those. The wounded character is
healed on the whole.

> >Control Thoughts: It's a full-control spell, with a specific manifestation:
> >The victim's thoughts are controlled. But you control all the thoughts
> >(well, conscious ones), not just the ones you want.
>
> Yes, but it affects only thoughts - only the mind. It doesn't
> affect what his foot thinks of his nostril.

A silly comparison. My foot can't think. Can yours?

> >Ditto Control Actions, and other Controls.
>
> Eh, yes you have full body control, but the mage can say "raise your
> hand" and the magic knows what the hand is.

No, the victim knows what the hand is.

> I just remembered the Increase/Decrease Attribute spells - those
> affect only a certain aspect of the body (the target is physically
> the whole body, yes, but only a certain aspect of it).

They target the whole body, but only a certain aspect manifests the
results. If there were an Increase Strength in the Arms spell, for
example, you would be correct.

> What about Nutrition? Fast? They affect the stomach and the mind's
> perception of the stomach.
>
> Magic is magic - it can do what it likes.

Magic affects the aura of the target on the whole. Period. Here is a
good analogy; when you take aspirin for a headache, does it just go
to your head and get rid of your headache? No. The aspirin goes
throughout your body. You only see the results in your head, because
that is the only place where the effect can manifest. Same with
magic.

--


=================================================================
-DREKHEAD- drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 92
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:17:52 -0600
Ereskanti wrote:
/
/ Strange, Mr. Kenson has been extremely quiet of late...

Mr. Kenson has been extremely busy of late working on the magic rules
for SRIII. I wouldn't expect to hear much from him until sometime
after August.

-David
--
"That which we do not know supports that which we know."
- Joseph Campbell
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 93
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:22:07 -0400
At 09:10 PM 4/29/98 EDT, you wrote:

>Strange, Mr. Kenson has been extremely quiet of late...

Actually, not very strange at all. He's working on SR3, Magic in the
Shadows, another novel, and probably other things all right now, so I
suspect he's a very busy fellow. I'm not sure I'd want to be in his shoes
right now.

So he's very hard at work creating/designing/writing things for us to
discuss and debate in the future.

Erik J.
Message no. 94
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages and Space
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:55:39 -0500
>> >I should think that a child who was magical active wouldn't
"awaken"
as
>> a
>> >magician before returning to Earth. Because he has to tap into the
>> >astralplane. If you read Awakenings (p.15 "Becoming Prairi Dog")
they
>> >speak about "the sky is calling" and so on.
>> >
>> Are you saying that someone with the metagene would not ever awaken
if
>> they were not living within the influence of the gaiasphere? What
if
>> the sun or moon called to him as a totem?
>
>VERY VERY good question, one that would go a long way towards things.
>
>Strange, Mr. Kenson has been extremely quiet of late...
>


Maybe he is just furiously writing clarifications on all these things
for the upcoming revision and space books, and keeping all the answers
to himself...(laugh)

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Message no. 95
From: EdgeWalker <EdgeWalker@*****.NET>
Subject: Mage's and Space
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 17:41:17 -0000
Hi All.

Just a quick question. Does anyone know what happens when a mage projects
out side the gaiasphere? I know the "Dies or Goes Insane" spiel. I was
thinking about specifics, like how it happens and what happens to the mage?
Are there anybooks that I can look in / or anywhere on the web where I can
look it up?

Cheers

==========
EdgeWalker
==========
EdgeWalker@*****.net
==========
http://www.prima.net/abenn
=========
"There are those who walk in the light,
There are those in walk in the Shadows,
And there are those who walk edge's between both.
This is where I live. And if you come to vist
Don't Come Alone."
Message no. 96
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:50:44 -0800
At 17:41 12/23/98 +0000, EdgeWalker wrote:
>Hi All.
>
>Just a quick question. Does anyone know what happens when a mage projects
>out side the gaiasphere? I know the "Dies or Goes Insane" spiel. I was
>thinking about specifics, like how it happens and what happens to the mage?
>Are there anybooks that I can look in / or anywhere on the web where I can
>look it up?

The module "Eyewitness" contains an NPC who tried going outside the
Gaiasphere in a controlled manner. Whatever he saw there made him
claw out his own eyes when he got back.

I would use the astral void rules from Target: UCAS, specifying
space as a level 10 void, if a PC decided to do such a foolish
thing.

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%
Message no. 97
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 21:54:39 EST
In a message dated 12/23/1998 12:57:33 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
EdgeWalker@*****.NET writes:

>
> Just a quick question. Does anyone know what happens when a mage projects
> out side the gaiasphere? I know the "Dies or Goes Insane" spiel. I was
> thinking about specifics, like how it happens and what happens to the mage?
> Are there anybooks that I can look in / or anywhere on the web where I can
> look it up?
>
The only thing I can immediately think of is use the stuff from Bug City, and
just make "Space" the ultimate concept of an "Astral Void" or
"Corrupted Mana"
type zone. That is about as nasty as you (as a GM) can get, short of just
saying "Magic does NOT work in Space...EVER!"

-K (who has a friend over his shoulder trying to say something more, but is
mercifully NOT at the keyboard ATM)
Message no. 98
From: EdgeWalker <EdgeWalker@*****.NET>
Subject: Mage's and Space
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 19:16:19 -0000
>The only thing I can immediately think of is use the stuff from Bug City,
and
>just make "Space" the ultimate concept of an "Astral Void" or
"Corrupted
Mana"
>type zone. That is about as nasty as you (as a GM) can get, short of just
>saying "Magic does NOT work in Space...EVER!"
>
>-K (who has a friend over his shoulder trying to say something more, but is
>mercifully NOT at the keyboard ATM)
>
Does anybody have any ideas about what actually happens with Mage's and
Space? I hear all the stuff about "Level 10 Voids" and all that. As far as
I know (I don't have Bug City or Target :UCAS) they are basically null zones
where mana does not exist in any form. I have read the bit (Ithink its in
the grimoire) that gones on about Astral space only existing where there is
sufficent life force to sustain it, but if that was true thent he level of
magic would never drop while there is life on Earth. The only thing I can
come up with is that once the projecting/preceiving mage leaves the
gaiasphere the energy created by the gaiasphere no longer protects them. By
this I mean when you are in space you can see 'purely' in to astral space.
The overwhelming sight of being able to see a 'living universe' drives the
mage over the edge or kills them outright. This is the only thing I can
come up with, but it does not sit to well with me. Does anyone else have
anyideas? What i am looking for is not really game rules, but more along
the line of concepts and ideas of what happens.

Any ideas that are thrown at me would be greatfully recieved.
(And yes I know my spelling is auful)
Message no. 99
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 22:33:00 -0500
EdgeWalker wrote:

> The only thing I can
> come up with is that once the projecting/preceiving mage leaves the
> gaiasphere the energy created by the gaiasphere no longer protects them. By
> this I mean when you are in space you can see 'purely' in to astral space.
> The overwhelming sight of being able to see a 'living universe' drives the
> mage over the edge or kills them outright. This is the only thing I can
> come up with, but it does not sit to well with me. Does anyone else have
> anyideas?

Astral space is a "reflection" of normal space on earth, so in outer
space (a vacuum), the astral plane would be a mana vacuum. Thus just
as a body would not only die, but be thoroughly destroyed by the
vacuum so the spirit is totally devastated by the lack of mana.

Of course this could logically lead one to believe that it may be
possible to create an artificial mana environment in which mages can
practice their art with little or no difficulty.

--
"Why do they sterilize needles for lethal injections?"
-Steven Wright

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
ICQ UIN:6629224
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
GS d-(++) s+: a- C++ U?@>++ P L E?
W++ N o-- K- w(---) O? M-- V? PS+@
PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
-------End Geek Code Block--------
Message no. 100
From: Mike Florentine <hivemind@********.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 23:26:27 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: EdgeWalker <EdgeWalker@*****.NET>
> Does anyone else have
>anyideas? What i am looking for is not really game rules, but more along
>the line of concepts and ideas of what happens.
>


As Tom Dowd (former DLOH) explained it to me at GenCon several years ago,
space is a mana vacuum. I believe his phrase was "imagine the mage as an
inflated balloon. When he opens himself up to astral space, it's like
poppinng the balloon." Does that help?

hivemind- a cruel foe
Message no. 101
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 09:19:25 EST
In a message dated 12/24/98, 9:31:35 PM, SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET writes:
<<> The only thing I can
> come up with is that once the projecting/preceiving mage leaves the
> gaiasphere the energy created by the gaiasphere no longer protects them. By
> this I mean when you are in space you can see 'purely' in to astral space.
> The overwhelming sight of being able to see a 'living universe' drives the
> mage over the edge or kills them outright. This is the only thing I can
> come up with, but it does not sit to well with me. Does anyone else have
> anyideas?

-Astral space is a "reflection" of normal space on earth, so in outer
-space (a vacuum), the astral plane would be a mana vacuum. Thus just
-as a body would not only die, but be thoroughly destroyed by the
-vacuum so the spirit is totally devastated by the lack of mana.

Or, not that Space is a mana vacuum, but the lack (or scarcity) of mana in
Space is just a reflection of the lack of life in Space, as Mana needs Life to
come into focus.

-Of course this could logically lead one to believe that it may be
-possible to create an artificial mana environment in which mages can
-practice their art with little or no difficulty.>>

Ah, the proverbial Mana Bottle, something even Dunkie wanted to see someone
whip up a technological mana generator. But as always, it is easier to talk
about certain things, and making a Mana Bottle is a difficult thing indeed.
Got any ideas there Steve on the designing of the Mana Bottle?

-Herc
Message no. 102
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 09:24:44 EST
In a message dated 12/24/98, 11:27:59 PM, SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET writes:
<<> Does anyone else have
>anyideas? What i am looking for is not really game rules, but more along
>the line of concepts and ideas of what happens.
>


-As Tom Dowd (former DLOH) explained it to me at GenCon several years ago,
-space is a mana vacuum. I believe his phrase was "imagine the mage as an
-inflated balloon. When he opens himself up to astral space, it's like
-poppinng the balloon." Does that help?

Ah, the wonderful patented explanation of the time, the reason for that
statement K and I have argued out a lot of times is that FASA did not want to
make SR a blatant copy of AD&D at the time, which does allow spellcasting in
space. But, at the same time, there also needed to more reasons for why space
is currently unable to support a active magician or adept.

Hey, for those of you who happen to have Corporate Security or the sourcebook
which mentions something rather interesting about somebody (Ares IIRC) sending
ritual materials up to their orbitals. Perhaps this gives some people some
ideas possibly.

-Herc
Message no. 103
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 11:24:03 -0500
At 09:24 AM 12/26/98 EST, Herc wrote:
>
>Hey, for those of you who happen to have Corporate Security or the sourcebook
>which mentions something rather interesting about somebody (Ares IIRC)
sending
>ritual materials up to their orbitals. Perhaps this gives some people some
>ideas possibly.

This was covered in one of the SR short stories that Tom Dowd wrote a while
back. Check the Archive. It's not really a spoiler for anything, so...
In the story (pre-Bug City) an insect spirit comes to kill Damien Knight.
Only Knight isn't Knight, he's a shapechanged or illusion-disguised Ares
mage possessed of incredible power. At the end, he makes a reference to
what he's learned "among the stars." Apparently, and Dowd later confirmed
this, Ares has been training mages in Low Earth Orbit at the very edge of
the mana-field, training them to do more with less. Then, when they come
Earth-side again, they can focus huge amounts of mana in Earth's mana-rich
environment. It was speculated in Cyberpirates that this might've been
Knight's way of trying to "catch up" to the magical abilities of IEs.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 104
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 17:16:41 EST
In a message dated 12/26/98, 10:22:43 AM, SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET writes:
<<>Hey, for those of you who happen to have Corporate Security or the
sourcebook
>which mentions something rather interesting about somebody (Ares IIRC)
sending
>ritual materials up to their orbitals. Perhaps this gives some people some
>ideas possibly.

This was covered in one of the SR short stories that Tom Dowd wrote a while
back. Check the Archive. It's not really a spoiler for anything, so...
In the story (pre-Bug City) an insect spirit comes to kill Damien Knight.
Only Knight isn't Knight, he's a shapechanged or illusion-disguised Ares
mage possessed of incredible power. At the end, he makes a reference to
what he's learned "among the stars." Apparently, and Dowd later confirmed
this, Ares has been training mages in Low Earth Orbit at the very edge of
the mana-field, training them to do more with less. Then, when they come
Earth-side again, they can focus huge amounts of mana in Earth's mana-rich
environment. It was speculated in Cyberpirates that this might've been
Knight's way of trying to "catch up" to the magical abilities of IEs.>>

Hmm, sounds like something that was under the guidance of Dowd then, as I have
heard nothing out of Mike or Steve Kenson on this possible topic, although
they might not be totally aware of it either.

But as for being able to do more with less, I would not be so certain, as here
is my penny on the subject of rituals in space.

When the mana level was low during the Fifth Age (our current time), of the
pre-Awakening, rituals were needed to focus the mana enough to be able to
perform any sort of magic at all, and this is even comfirmed somewhere within
the sourcebooks.

So what is happening is that Ares mages are using rituals might be able to
perform magical tasks in space, without the hindrance or limitations of a
Gaiasphere.

But from another pov, if Ares is doing this, then so is every other mega in
the world. As the other megas would not let Ares gain such a powerful edge on
them.

-Herc
But as for it making them be able to do more with less, if that were true then
Ares's use of FAB-3(b) on Chicago might not have been necessary, send in a
couple of teams of these mages, and watch them roast the bugs for fun is my
concept of what would have happened to them.

But then again, it remains to be seen if Mike and Steve are going to do with
this line, if it even goes beyond what is mentioned in Cyberpirates. And as
for the little short stories being totally canon, unless it is stated that is
Message no. 105
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 17:50:18 -0500
At 05:16 PM 12/26/98 EST, Mike Bobroff wrote:

<snip description of story and attending details>

>But as for being able to do more with less, I would not be so certain, as
here
>is my penny on the subject of rituals in space.
>
>When the mana level was low during the Fifth Age (our current time), of the
>pre-Awakening, rituals were needed to focus the mana enough to be able to
>perform any sort of magic at all, and this is even comfirmed somewhere within
>the sourcebooks.
>
>So what is happening is that Ares mages are using rituals might be able to
>perform magical tasks in space, without the hindrance or limitations of a
>Gaiasphere.

I don't think so. Bear in mind, we pretty much have to go with Dowd's
ideas on this issue, since he wrote the story. Operating canon back then
was that space has little or no mana energy whatsoever. By taking the
mages to a level where the energy level is minimal, you strengthen their
abilities to work with what's left. Sort of the way that sherpas have far
greater lung capacity because they've adapted to high-altitude living.

>But from another pov, if Ares is doing this, then so is every other mega in
>the world. As the other megas would not let Ares gain such a powerful
edge on
>them.

If the other megas know about it, and know the techniques, and can
duplicate the conditions. They might not. After all, IIRC only Ares has a
private orbital presence. In fact, the only other LEO habitat that I know
of is Zurich-Orbital, and I doubt anyone's doing any secret research there.
Also bear in mind the DK-Dunk connection. Knight may have been the only
corporator to know about the need at the time.

>But as for it making them be able to do more with less, if that were true
then
>Ares's use of FAB-3(b) on Chicago might not have been necessary, send in a
>couple of teams of these mages, and watch them roast the bugs for fun is my
>concept of what would have happened to them.

If you had a weapon like that, would you advertise it? Also, we don't know
how many such mages there are. We do know that there were a LOT of bugs in
the city, and that magic just seemed to rouse them. Such magic might've
made the situation worse, not better. I can easily see Knight not wanting
to take the chance. Also, Ares and KE were under a lot of scrutiny for
their role in the situation leading up to the breakout; they may not have
been able to discreetly mobilize their mages.

>But then again, it remains to be seen if Mike and Steve are going to do with
>this line, if it even goes beyond what is mentioned in Cyberpirates. And as
>for the little short stories being totally canon, unless it is stated that is

Well, everything else about the stories has been borne out so far, and Dowd
did write them as teasers for the SR line when he was the developer. I'm
pretty sure it's fairly safe to consider them valid, even if the SR line is
now going in a different direction.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 106
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 00:16:19 EST
In a message dated 12/26/98, 4:49:58 PM, SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET writes:
<<<snip description of story and attending details>

>But as for being able to do more with less, I would not be so certain, as
here
>is my penny on the subject of rituals in space.
>
>When the mana level was low during the Fifth Age (our current time), of the
>pre-Awakening, rituals were needed to focus the mana enough to be able to
>perform any sort of magic at all, and this is even comfirmed somewhere within
>the sourcebooks.
>
>So what is happening is that Ares mages are using rituals might be able to
>perform magical tasks in space, without the hindrance or limitations of a
>Gaiasphere.

-I don't think so. Bear in mind, we pretty much have to go with Dowd's
-ideas on this issue, since he wrote the story. Operating canon back then
-was that space has little or no mana energy whatsoever. By taking the
-mages to a level where the energy level is minimal, you strengthen their
-abilities to work with what's left. Sort of the way that sherpas have far
-greater lung capacity because they've adapted to high-altitude living.

Yeah, but there is a definite difference between breathing and using what
little mana there is in space to do things also.

>But from another pov, if Ares is doing this, then so is every other mega in
>the world. As the other megas would not let Ares gain such a powerful
edge on
>them.

-If the other megas know about it, and know the techniques, and can
-duplicate the conditions. They might not. After all, IIRC only Ares has a
-private orbital presence. In fact, the only other LEO habitat that I know
-of is Zurich-Orbital, and I doubt anyone's doing any secret research there.
- Also bear in mind the DK-Dunk connection. Knight may have been the only
-corporator to know about the need at the time.

Sure there was a DK-Dunkie connection, but I seriously doubt that Dunkie would
have tipped the hat on the knowledge necessary to accomplish this. And as for
the other megas not knowing about, I seriously doubt MFD (Marketing and
Forecasting Division) for Shiawese (their Intelligence division) would not
have known about, as they just about everything that is going, usually even
before someone goes out and does something.

As for the other megas not having orbitals, they have orbiting factories, but
at the same time, they would be able to purchase space and time aboard ZO and
other orbitals for their own uses. Besides, there can be more orbitals in
space that are not mentioned beyond the known one of ZO and Daedleus (Ares).

>But as for it making them be able to do more with less, if that were true
then
>Ares's use of FAB-3(b) on Chicago might not have been necessary, send in a
>couple of teams of these mages, and watch them roast the bugs for fun is my
>concept of what would have happened to them.

-If you had a weapon like that, would you advertise it? Also, we don't know
-how many such mages there are. We do know that there were a LOT of bugs in
-the city, and that magic just seemed to rouse them. Such magic might've
-made the situation worse, not better. I can easily see Knight not wanting
-to take the chance. Also, Ares and KE were under a lot of scrutiny for
-their role in the situation leading up to the breakout; they may not have
-been able to discreetly mobilize their mages.

True, you would not advertise that sort of mage either. But at the same time,
I could see a potential problem for a mage trained to use Space Mana, they
would need to become reaclimated to Terran Mana again, and with time they
would lose whatever advantages they may have had from having been in space for
so long also.

And continuing on the problems of dealing with Terran Mana, if that Space Mage
came back to Earth, and began casting spells again, they would probably burn
out rather quickly as they are now being saturated even more than what they
were in space to begin with.

-Herc
>But then again, it remains to be seen if Mike and Steve are going to do with
>this line, if it even goes beyond what is mentioned in Cyberpirates. And as
>for the little short stories being totally canon, unless it is stated that is

-Well, everything else about the stories has been borne out so far, and Dowd
-did write them as teasers for the SR line when he was the developer. I'm
-pretty sure it's fairly safe to consider them valid, even if the SR line is
-now going in a different direction.>>
Message no. 107
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 02:23:12 -0500
At 12:16 AM 12/27/98 EST, Mike Bobroff wrote:
<Stuff quoted with dashes is me>
>-I don't think so. Bear in mind, we pretty much have to go with Dowd's
>-ideas on this issue, since he wrote the story. Operating canon back then
>-was that space has little or no mana energy whatsoever. By taking the
>-mages to a level where the energy level is minimal, you strengthen their
>-abilities to work with what's left. Sort of the way that sherpas have far
>-greater lung capacity because they've adapted to high-altitude living.
>
>Yeah, but there is a definite difference between breathing and using what
>little mana there is in space to do things also.

It's just an analogy; don't fall in love with it. :)

>Sure there was a DK-Dunkie connection, but I seriously doubt that Dunkie
would
>have tipped the hat on the knowledge necessary to accomplish this. And as
for
>the other megas not knowing about, I seriously doubt MFD (Marketing and
>Forecasting Division) for Shiawese (their Intelligence division) would not
>have known about, as they just about everything that is going, usually even
>before someone goes out and does something.

I never said Dunkelzahn initiated or guided the program, just that Knight
might have seen the necessity for it from their conversations. And given
the inherent security of orbital platforms, I really don't see anything
leaking. Especially if you can get the mages aboard secretly in the first
place. The ritual materials bit would've leaked, sure, because if you do
something often enough somebody will find out. But Ares can probably be
damned sure that everyone/thing connected to the project coming down the
well is completely secure and monitored. And the mages themselves? Hell,
they probably had to sell their souls to Knight a dozen times over before
even being considered for the program, much less being told anything about
it or shipped upstairs.

>As for the other megas not having orbitals, they have orbiting factories, but
>at the same time, they would be able to purchase space and time aboard ZO and
>other orbitals for their own uses. Besides, there can be more orbitals in
>space that are not mentioned beyond the known one of ZO and Daedleus (Ares).

Think about that for a moment. Given the ultrasecurity such a project
would require, would YOU do it in an environment you didn't absolutely
control? Theoretically there might be other orbitals up there, but we
haven't heard about them even in passing. Seems unlikely. Daedalus and ZO
both came from pre-existing platforms, remember. Building one from scratch
might not be worth the time/effort, even for a mega.

>True, you would not advertise that sort of mage either. But at the same
time,
>I could see a potential problem for a mage trained to use Space Mana, they
>would need to become reaclimated to Terran Mana again, and with time they
>would lose whatever advantages they may have had from having been in space
for
>so long also.
>
>And continuing on the problems of dealing with Terran Mana, if that Space
Mage
>came back to Earth, and began casting spells again, they would probably burn
>out rather quickly as they are now being saturated even more than what they
>were in space to begin with.

[Expression of puzzlement] Terran Mana and Space Mana? Does not compute;
it's a matter of degree, not type. If you mean the differences between the
low-mana environment of LEO and the high-mana environment of Earth, I'd
imagine it's a two-phase program; first you go up the well to learn
magicking on the high frontier, then you come down the well to learn how to
apply the techniques on Earth. I've also heard that the process might
involve initiation and some sort of metamagic, and I can believe that. And
given that magic-use is a learned skill, I can easily believe that once
learned you can keep doing it. Still, I can concede that it may require
taking a trip up the well every few months or so to "stay in shape," so to
speak.


Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 108
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:05:19 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Mike Bobroff wrote:
/
/ -Astral space is a "reflection" of normal space on earth, so in outer
/ -space (a vacuum), the astral plane would be a mana vacuum. Thus just
/ -as a body would not only die, but be thoroughly destroyed by the
/ -vacuum so the spirit is totally devastated by the lack of mana.
/
/ Or, not that Space is a mana vacuum, but the lack (or scarcity) of mana in
/ Space is just a reflection of the lack of life in Space, as Mana needs Life to
/ come into focus.

I don't think so :)

Astral space is created when the mana flowing through the physical plane
(from the metaplanes and back again) interacts with life and creates a
shadow/reflection. Note, even inanimate objects will create a shadow.
Therefore, IMHO, there should be an astral shadow of the Moon.

In space there is no life, ergo no astral shadow. Outer space is an
astral void. Again IMHO, there should be an astral shadow of other
planets, whether or not life exists on them. However, the astral
shadows of such worlds would probably be one step away from an asral
void (a rating 9 or 8 astral void).

However, there should plenty of mana. The lack of life should not
affect the flow of mana from the metaplanes.

Maybe spell casting is affected by astral voids because the mana goes
wizzing through so fast that a mage can't tap into it. Maybe life
slows down the flow of mana to the point that a mage can tap into it.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 109
From: Jalong1@***.COM
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 13:00:57 EST
>> come up with is that once the projecting/preceiving mage leaves the
>>gaiasphere the energy created by the gaiasphere no longer protects them.
<snip>
>>Does anyone else have
>>anyideas?

>Astral space is a "reflection" of normal space on earth, so in outer
>space (a vacuum), the astral plane would be a mana vacuum. Thus just
>as a body would not only die, but be thoroughly destroyed by the
>vacuum so the spirit is totally devastated by the lack of mana.

>Of course this could logically lead one to believe that it may be
>possible to create an artificial mana environment in which mages can
>practice their art with little or no difficulty.

A few months ago before SR3 came out I came up with a theory on space and the
astral that I posted on AOL. It was a slight variation on the current theory
of magic.

Basically the theory is that life does not create mana but instead attracts
mana that it comes from some other source in waves flowing through the
universe. Mana is attracted to life like gravity attracts matter. The larger
the mass of life the greater the accumulation of mana in a specific place.
This means that since much of the magic is centered around places like Terra
Firma, this leaves little left in the area of space, kind of like air (there's
air in space but it's do spread out you might as well just discount the fact
there's anything there). Of course this theory doesn't take into account
everything, but then again why to, best to leave some things a mystery. The
theory in the book reflects the common view based on their current evidence.

Jalong1
Message no. 110
From: EdgeWalker <EdgeWalker@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:48:11 -0000
>Maybe spell casting is affected by astral voids because the mana goes
>wizzing through so fast that a mage can't tap into it. Maybe life
>slows down the flow of mana to the point that a mage can tap into it.

How about the gaiasphere working as a filter? The mana in space is pure
mana. Unsullied by anything. When it interacts with the gaiasphere it is
'dilulted'. This allows mages on earth to work with it. When the mage
projects in to space the 'neat' mana burns them out because they cannot deal
with it.

With reference to earlier in the thread, this may be what Ares is doing.
Not teaching mages to work with less mana but more. The pure, undiluted
mana so they can focus more through their bodies. It may also explain why
they did not turn up at Bug City. Their power level drop when they return
to the gaiasphere because of the diluted mana.

Just an idea. Flame me if you want.




==========
EdgeWalker
==========
EdgeWalker@*****.net
==========
http://www.prima.net/abenn
=========
"There are those who walk in the light,
There are those in walk in the Shadows,
And there are those who walk edge's between both.
This is where I live. And if you come to vist
Don't Come Alone."
Message no. 111
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 00:32:15 EST
In a message dated 12/27/1998 12:17:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
Airwasp@***.COM writes:

>
> -Well, everything else about the stories has been borne out so far, and
Dowd
> -did write them as teasers for the SR line when he was the developer. I'm
> -pretty sure it's fairly safe to consider them valid, even if the SR line
is
> -now going in a different direction.>>
>
I'm sorry, I don't know exactly who wrote this little bit, but...

LOL

-K
Message no. 112
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 00:34:49 EST
In a message dated 12/27/1998 12:05:24 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

>
> In space there is no life, ergo no astral shadow. Outer space is an
> astral void. Again IMHO, there should be an astral shadow of other
> planets, whether or not life exists on them. However, the astral
> shadows of such worlds would probably be one step away from an asral
> void (a rating 9 or 8 astral void).

That's interesting David, that's actually the direction (in different terms of
course) that we have taken.

-K
Message no. 113
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 06:53:36 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, K in the Shadows wrote:
/
/ In a message dated 12/27/1998 12:05:24 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
/ dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:
/
/ > In space there is no life, ergo no astral shadow. Outer space is an
/ > astral void. Again IMHO, there should be an astral shadow of other
/ > planets, whether or not life exists on them. However, the astral
/ > shadows of such worlds would probably be one step away from an asral
/ > void (a rating 9 or 8 astral void).
/
/ That's interesting David, that's actually the direction (in different terms of
/ course) that we have taken.

So, does that mean we're both right, or we're both wrong? ;)

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 114
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:05:22 EST
In a message dated 12/27/1998 1:03:29 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Jalong1@***.COM writes:

> A few months ago before SR3 came out I came up with a theory on space and
> the
> astral that I posted on AOL. It was a slight variation on the current
> theory
> of magic.
>
> Basically the theory is that life does not create mana but instead attracts
> mana that it comes from some other source in waves flowing through the
> universe. Mana is attracted to life like gravity attracts matter. The
> larger
> the mass of life the greater the accumulation of mana in a specific place.
> This means that since much of the magic is centered around places like
Terra
> Firma, this leaves little left in the area of space, kind of like air
(there'
> s
> air in space but it's do spread out you might as well just discount the
fact
> there's anything there). Of course this theory doesn't take into account
> everything, but then again why to, best to leave some things a mystery. The
> theory in the book reflects the common view based on their current
evidence.
>
> Jalong1
>
Jalong, I tip my hat to you, wonderfully put, and I seriously doubt I could
have said it just as good as you just did.

-Herc
Message no. 115
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:05:15 EST
In a message dated 12/27/1998 2:34:56 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
starjammer@**********.COM writes:

> <Stuff quoted with dashes is me>
> >-I don't think so. Bear in mind, we pretty much have to go with Dowd's
> >-ideas on this issue, since he wrote the story. Operating canon back then
> >-was that space has little or no mana energy whatsoever. By taking the
> >-mages to a level where the energy level is minimal, you strengthen their
> >-abilities to work with what's left. Sort of the way that sherpas have
far
> >-greater lung capacity because they've adapted to high-altitude living.
> >
> >Yeah, but there is a definite difference between breathing and using what
> >little mana there is in space to do things also.
>
> It's just an analogy; don't fall in love with it. :)

Okay, mea culpa ...

> >Sure there was a DK-Dunkie connection, but I seriously doubt that Dunkie
> would
> >have tipped the hat on the knowledge necessary to accomplish this. And as
> for
> >the other megas not knowing about, I seriously doubt MFD (Marketing and
> >Forecasting Division) for Shiawese (their Intelligence division) would not
> >have known about, as they just about everything that is going, usually
even
> >before someone goes out and does something.
>
> I never said Dunkelzahn initiated or guided the program, just that Knight
> might have seen the necessity for it from their conversations. And given
> the inherent security of orbital platforms, I really don't see anything
> leaking. Especially if you can get the mages aboard secretly in the first
> place. The ritual materials bit would've leaked, sure, because if you do
> something often enough somebody will find out. But Ares can probably be
> damned sure that everyone/thing connected to the project coming down the
> well is completely secure and monitored. And the mages themselves? Hell,
> they probably had to sell their souls to Knight a dozen times over before
> even being considered for the program, much less being told anything about
> it or shipped upstairs.

True also, but when the Corporate Courts got downwind of the ritual materials
being sent spacewards, they would begin inquiring why Ares is doing that. And
that would make the CC take some sort of action to balance the scales out some
so that way Ares does not gain too much from their research (like restricting
those mages to remain on Daedleus for the remainder of their lives).

> >As for the other megas not having orbitals, they have orbiting factories,
> but
> >at the same time, they would be able to purchase space and time aboard ZO
> and
> >other orbitals for their own uses. Besides, there can be more orbitals in
> >space that are not mentioned beyond the known one of ZO and Daedleus
(Ares).
>
>
> Think about that for a moment. Given the ultrasecurity such a project
> would require, would YOU do it in an environment you didn't absolutely
> control? Theoretically there might be other orbitals up there, but we
> haven't heard about them even in passing. Seems unlikely. Daedalus and ZO
> both came from pre-existing platforms, remember. Building one from scratch
> might not be worth the time/effort, even for a mega.

True, but then again, if the corps have orbiting factories, they have the
ability to build orbitals, I could even see a couple of them agreeing to share
the costs of construction and maintenance (especially among some of the Japana
corps - just imagine the chaos when Yamatetsu left Japan and peeved almost
everyone off in Japan).

> >True, you would not advertise that sort of mage either. But at the same
> time,
> >I could see a potential problem for a mage trained to use Space Mana, they
> >would need to become reaclimated to Terran Mana again, and with time they
> >would lose whatever advantages they may have had from having been in space
> for
> >so long also.
> >
> >And continuing on the problems of dealing with Terran Mana, if that Space
> Mage
> >came back to Earth, and began casting spells again, they would probably
> burn
> >out rather quickly as they are now being saturated even more than what
they
> >were in space to begin with.
>
> [Expression of puzzlement] Terran Mana and Space Mana? Does not compute;
> it's a matter of degree, not type. If you mean the differences between the
> low-mana environment of LEO and the high-mana environment of Earth, I'd
> imagine it's a two-phase program; first you go up the well to learn
> magicking on the high frontier, then you come down the well to learn how to
> apply the techniques on Earth. I've also heard that the process might
> involve initiation and some sort of metamagic, and I can believe that. And
> given that magic-use is a learned skill, I can easily believe that once
> learned you can keep doing it. Still, I can concede that it may require
> taking a trip up the well every few months or so to "stay in shape," so to
> speak.

Thanks for conceding the point, it was something I had not considered
initially.

And as for them not burning out, it is probably some form of metamagical
talent that they have learned which is going to allow them to continue to
survive anyway.

-Herc
Message no. 116
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:05:25 EST
In a message dated 12/27/1998 3:54:49 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
EdgeWalker@*****.NET writes:

> >Maybe spell casting is affected by astral voids because the mana goes
> >wizzing through so fast that a mage can't tap into it. Maybe life
> >slows down the flow of mana to the point that a mage can tap into it.
>
> How about the gaiasphere working as a filter? The mana in space is pure
> mana. Unsullied by anything. When it interacts with the gaiasphere it is
> 'dilulted'. This allows mages on earth to work with it. When the mage
> projects in to space the 'neat' mana burns them out because they cannot
deal
> with it.

The filter concept for the gaiasphere is an interesting one, with current SR
magical theory having everything backwards on the concept of the spacial voids
(sounds like something an IE would have thrown into some text to screw with
all of the magical newbies in the world.

> With reference to earlier in the thread, this may be what Ares is doing.
> Not teaching mages to work with less mana but more. The pure, undiluted
> mana so they can focus more through their bodies. It may also explain why
> they did not turn up at Bug City. Their power level drop when they return
> to the gaiasphere because of the diluted mana.
>
> Just an idea. Flame me if you want.
>
Interesting concept, but I'm not going to flame you for it.

-Herc
Message no. 117
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:05:19 EST
In a message dated 12/27/1998 12:05:26 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

> For the mere cost of a Thaum, Mike Bobroff wrote:
> /
> / -Astral space is a "reflection" of normal space on earth, so in outer
> / -space (a vacuum), the astral plane would be a mana vacuum. Thus just
> / -as a body would not only die, but be thoroughly destroyed by the
> / -vacuum so the spirit is totally devastated by the lack of mana.
> /
> / Or, not that Space is a mana vacuum, but the lack (or scarcity) of mana
in
> / Space is just a reflection of the lack of life in Space, as Mana needs
> Life to
> / come into focus.
>
> I don't think so :)
>
> Astral space is created when the mana flowing through the physical plane
> (from the metaplanes and back again) interacts with life and creates a
> shadow/reflection. Note, even inanimate objects will create a shadow.
> Therefore, IMHO, there should be an astral shadow of the Moon.

True, inanimate, manufactured or 'dead' (no living material within), objects
will create a mana shadow, but it does not mean that the mana is not there, it
just means that it is harder to tap into (hence the reason for all the damage
taken when casting magic in a fovea or in the void of space.

And yes, the Moon should have a mana field of sorts, but even then it would
still be difficult to cast magic on the Moon, but it would still be a little
easier than doing so in the void of space.

> In space there is no life, ergo no astral shadow. Outer space is an
> astral void. Again IMHO, there should be an astral shadow of other
> planets, whether or not life exists on them. However, the astral
> shadows of such worlds would probably be one step away from an asral
> void (a rating 9 or 8 astral void).

Possibly, and hence the reason why the Moon would have an astral shadow.

> However, there should plenty of mana. The lack of life should not
> affect the flow of mana from the metaplanes.

True, the lack of mana would not affect the metaplanes, it would still make
access to a lot of them difficult, except for one ... Fiery Firmament ...

> Maybe spell casting is affected by astral voids because the mana goes
> wizzing through so fast that a mage can't tap into it. Maybe life
> slows down the flow of mana to the point that a mage can tap into it.

Or because mana is a reflection of life ... and the more life in the area, the
greater the abundance of mana. I don't see life as slowing down the flow of
mana, I see it as exciting it to the point where it begins to react with
reality.

-Herc
Message no. 118
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 13:55:27 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Mike Bobroff wrote:
/
/ In a message dated 12/27/1998 12:05:26 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
/ dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:
/
/ > Maybe spell casting is affected by astral voids because the mana goes
/ > wizzing through so fast that a mage can't tap into it. Maybe life
/ > slows down the flow of mana to the point that a mage can tap into it.
/
/ Or because mana is a reflection of life ... and the more life in the area, the
/ greater the abundance of mana. I don't see life as slowing down the flow of
/ mana, I see it as exciting it to the point where it begins to react with
/ reality.

...I really like that :)

However, current SR3 magical cosmology has mana flowing from the
metaplanes, through the physical plane (creating a shadow/reflection in
astral space), and back to the metaplanes.

From my point of view there are conflicts with that and your view.

I don't feel that mana is a reflection of life. I do feel that life
may reflect mana.

Mana is affected by life and emotions. Astral space is proof that mana
is affected by life. Background count is proof that mana is affected
by emotion.

Whether life increases or focuses mana is debatable. The presence life
may merely make mana more accessible by tuning the space through which
the mana flows.

<ponders> Or maybe mana is tuned by the life it passes through.
Harmonious life creates a harmonious vibration in the mana, and that
vibration creates a harmonic vibration on the astral plane, which
creates the astral shadows and reflections of the physical plane.
Disonant life and emotions create disonent vibrations (Background
Count). Mages could tap into harmonious mana to create spells.

Where there is no life mana would have no vibration and would be in a
null state and very difficult to access. Astral space would be void.

Can you tell that I have a strong background in music? :)

Anyway, all IMHO. Thoughts?

-David B.
-
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 119
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 18:08:22 EST
In a message dated 12/28/1998 8:52:53 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

>
> / That's interesting David, that's actually the direction (in different
> terms of
> / course) that we have taken.
>
> So, does that mean we're both right, or we're both wrong? ;)
>
How about we're both ...

"LOOOOST INNN SPAAAAACE...."

-K (shields NOW! ;)
Message no. 120
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:05:51 -0500
At 03:05 PM 12/28/98 EST, Mike Bobroff wrote:
>
>True also, but when the Corporate Courts got downwind of the ritual materials
>being sent spacewards, they would begin inquiring why Ares is doing that.
And
>that would make the CC take some sort of action to balance the scales out
some
>so that way Ares does not gain too much from their research (like restricting
>those mages to remain on Daedleus for the remainder of their lives).

Hmm... Maybe, maybe not. After all, there's nothing inherently wrong with
trying to research magic in orbit, and Ares could always claim they were
shooting for the Dunkelzahn bequest for space magic. Even if it came out
that it was a long-running project, Knight could just say something along
the lines of, "Well, Dunk and I were acquaintances, as you know, and he got
me thinking along these lines years before the bequest in his will became
public." If the CC got actual proof of these mages and their powers it
would probably act (perhaps make the techniques an Omega-restricted
technology), but I doubt it would happen just based on rumors and the odd
shipment.

>True, but then again, if the corps have orbiting factories, they have the
>ability to build orbitals, I could even see a couple of them agreeing to
share
>the costs of construction and maintenance (especially among some of the
Japana
>corps - just imagine the chaos when Yamatetsu left Japan and peeved almost
>everyone off in Japan).

Just me, and I'll freely admit I'm probably wrong, but I always got the
impression that the orbital factories were simply small and mostly
automated satellites manned part-time at best. I.e., every few weeks or
months someone comes up to pick up the finished products and plug in some
new raw materials. With good robot drone technology, you wouldn't even
need people to do that, really. We hear so little about spaceflight and
astronautics in SR that I've always assumed it to be a mostly dead arena,
with only a handful of manned spaceflights a year by the corps for business
purposes, and only the two orbital platforms. (Of course, like many of
SR's genre conventions, this dates back to the attitudes of the '80's, when
spaceflight pretty much was a dead issue in America. With NASA's new push
to regain its prestige and the resulting programs, this attitude probably
needs to be rethought.)

If there is a real manned spaceflight effort in the Sixth World, then I
guess what we need is space material for SR, IF THE FOLKS FROM FASA ARE
LISTENING, HINT HINT. That, or just a definitive statement that there's
not enough going on in that area to make it worth doing.


Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 121
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:37:27 -0500
At 01:55 PM 12/28/98 -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
>
>I don't feel that mana is a reflection of life. I do feel that life
>may reflect mana.
>
>Mana is affected by life and emotions. Astral space is proof that mana
>is affected by life. Background count is proof that mana is affected
>by emotion.
>
>Whether life increases or focuses mana is debatable. The presence life
>may merely make mana more accessible by tuning the space through which
>the mana flows.
>
><ponders> Or maybe mana is tuned by the life it passes through.
>Harmonious life creates a harmonious vibration in the mana, and that
>vibration creates a harmonic vibration on the astral plane, which
>creates the astral shadows and reflections of the physical plane.
>Disonant life and emotions create disonent vibrations (Background
>Count). Mages could tap into harmonious mana to create spells.
>
>Where there is no life mana would have no vibration and would be in a
>null state and very difficult to access. Astral space would be void.
>
>Anyway, all IMHO. Thoughts?

Sounds reasonably good. It's pretty much a given that mana and lifeforce
(for want of a better term) are directly connected, and I think the
connection works in both directions. It's also pretty much a given that
magic works best when dealing with as "pure" or natural a lifeforce as
possible. There's half a zillion things which demonstrate this as being
true, from Essence loss to the difficulties of working magic on high-tech
items and materials. And there's no doubt that twisted lifeforce equals
twisted magic, as anyone who's ever run into a toxic shaman can tell you.
The reverse also seems true, given the ecology of the mermaid. So it's not
out of line to state as an absolute rule that the amount and purity of mana
in a given area is directly proportional to the amount and purity of life
in an area.

Probably the only place I would disagree with you is in the idea that mana
exists apart from life, accessible or not. I don't think that's true. I
believe that mana can only exist in the physical and etheric planes in
places where there is life. Not that life causes the mana, just that it's
a prerequisite for the mana to be around in this plane of existence. Even
then, I don't think the presence of life guarantees the presence of mana,
if the interface between the physical and etheric planes isn't just so. I
think that natural long-term fluctuation in the interface is what causes
the mana-cycles, and that there are some physical and astral events that
can screw it up in an area artificially. Among these are the detonation of
a nuclear weapon, the astral hazing caused by a cyberzombie, extensive and
badly-done blood magic, and anything else you can think of that's ever had
a bad effect on magic in an SR storyline. Of course, it must also be
possible to alter the interface in a "good" way, too, otherwise you
wouldn't get stuff like druidic circles or the "positive" background count
in places of worship.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 122
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 06:55:21 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, K in the Shadows wrote:
/
/ In a message dated 12/28/1998 8:52:53 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
/ dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:
/
/ > / That's interesting David, that's actually the direction (in different
/ > terms of
/ > / course) that we have taken.
/ >
/ > So, does that mean we're both right, or we're both wrong? ;)
/ >
/ How about we're both ...
/
/ "LOOOOST INNN SPAAAAACE...."

LOL |'D

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 123
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:13:18 -0800
> The module "Eyewitness" contains an NPC who tried going outside the
> Gaiasphere in a controlled manner. Whatever he saw there made him
> claw out his own eyes when he got back.
>
So you are saying that Mages wouldn't make ideal astronauts? :)

-Toffer
Message no. 124
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:14:09 +0100
According to Davidson, Chris, at 14:13 on 4 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> So you are saying that Mages wouldn't make ideal astronauts? :)

Not if they want to do magic outside the atmosphere, no. Otherwise,
they'll be just fine.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Take advantage. Or so it seems.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 125
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:51:42 -0800
> > So you are saying that Mages wouldn't make ideal astronauts? :)
>
> Not if they want to do magic outside the atmosphere, no. Otherwise,
> they'll be just fine.
>
Okay, this differs a little from what I've been hearing... Some of the group
claims that mages would go insane if they even left the gaesphere that
surrounds the earth...even without casting spells...is this wrong?

-Toffer
Message no. 126
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:02:45 -0600
:> > So you are saying that Mages wouldn't make ideal astronauts? :)
:>
:> Not if they want to do magic outside the atmosphere, no. Otherwise,
:> they'll be just fine.
:>
:Okay, this differs a little from what I've been hearing... Some of the
group
:claims that mages would go insane if they even left the gaesphere that
:surrounds the earth...even without casting spells...is this wrong?


Yes, that is wrong. One of the corporate court members of a time (in
the novel "Technobabel"), was a mage,and traveled to and spent some time
on Zurich orbital. He was annoyed and edgy because he was forced to
change his habits and ignore a natural sense / ability, but had no
unavoidable problems.
However, the question of whether a physads (non astral perception)
abilities would continue to work has never been addressed, afaik. In
theory, if they did change, the adepts physical attributes and such might
drop when they went into orbit. Weird.

Mongoose
Message no. 127
From: Jared Leisner <leisnj48@****.CIS.UWOSH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:11:58 -0600
> However, the question of whether a physads (non astral perception)
>abilities would continue to work has never been addressed, afaik. In
>theory, if they did change, the adepts physical attributes and such might
>drop when they went into orbit. Weird.


Well, the question is how does Shadowrun magic work? Like the books says,
with Shamans and Hermetics, or like Aina said in _Worlds without End_? Are
PhysAd powers continuous flows of magic, or a one-burst shot that gives them
the abilities? Does their magic let their eyes grow more cones, or is their
version of the magic spell? I thought I read something somewhere about some
PhysAd powers not being able to be geased because they're not on-off
things...Anyone know what I'm talking about? :)


-Jared
Message no. 128
From: Wyrmy <elfman@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:49:19 -0600
Are PhysAd powers continuous flows of magic, or a one-burst shot that
gives them the abilities? Does their magic let their eyes grow more
cones, or is their version of the magic spell? I thought I read
something somewhere about some PhysAd powers not being able to be geased
because they're not on-off things...Anyone know what I'm talking about?
:)

Yeah I know. Things like killing hands.You can turn it on and off.Same
with boost attribute(not to be confused with increase attribute, which
is a permanent increase).Stuff like that.Right?
--
-W in the light
----------------------------------------------------------
Wyrmy: Wyrm druid, Scholar, Pokemon trainer extroidenaire.
Famous Quote: "Pikachu? What Pikachu?" BZRAK "Oh,(cough), THAT
Pikachu!"
Message no. 129
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:59:54 -0600
:Well, the question is how does Shadowrun magic work? Like the books says,
:with Shamans and Hermetics, or like Aina said in _Worlds without End_?
Are
:PhysAd powers continuous flows of magic, or a one-burst shot that gives
them
:the abilities? Does their magic let their eyes grow more cones, or is
their
:version of the magic spell? I thought I read something somewhere about
some
:PhysAd powers not being able to be geased because they're not on-off
:things...Anyone know what I'm talking about? :)


No, I don't. As far as I know, physad powers CAN be geased. (Maybe
not after they are learned, but still...)
But yes, your basic point is well put- elves and trolls remain elves
and trolls in space, so perhaps a beefed up adept would also remain so.
He'd just better not use any powers to interact with astral space (likely
including killing hands).

Mongoose
Message no. 130
From: Jared Leisner <leisnj48@****.CIS.UWOSH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:48:10 -0600
>Yeah I know. Things like killing hands.You can turn it on and off.Same
>with boost attribute(not to be confused with increase attribute, which
>is a permanent increase).Stuff like that.Right?


Yeah, like skill and attr increases would remain. It's like damage caused by
magic doesn't go away when you leave the planet, so why should PhysAd
increases? Of course, if they lsoe Magic attr, they can lose attr/skill
bonuses, but don't ask me, I didn't invent the game. :)
Message no. 131
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:54:59 -0500
>Are PhysAd powers continuous flows of magic, or a one-burst
>shot that gives them the abilities? Does their magic let their
>eyes grow more
>cones, or is their version of the magic spell? I thought I read
>something somewhere about some PhysAd powers not being
>able to be geased
>because they're not on-off things...Anyone know what I'm talking
>about?

PA's can have geas applied to their powers. It reduces the cost.
I believe it was first published in Awakenings. (Perhaps it was in
the Grimoire as well). This will most likely show up in MITS.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 132
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:52:46 -0600
On Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:59:54 -0600 Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
writes:
<SNIP>
> But yes, your basic point is well put- elves and trolls remain elves
>and trolls in space, so perhaps a beefed up adept would also remain so.
>He'd just better not use any powers to interact with astral space
(likely
>including killing hands).

Okay ... but does an Elf PhysAd with the strength of a Troll LOOK like a
Troll? In other words, a Troll's strength is biological, but is a
PhysAd's?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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Message no. 133
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:49:56 -0600
On Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:49:19 -0600 Wyrmy <elfman@******.COM> writes:
>Are PhysAd powers continuous flows of magic, or a one-burst shot that
>gives them the abilities? Does their magic let their eyes grow more
>cones, or is their version of the magic spell?

That brings up an interesting question: Does metahuman vision (ie,
lowlight and thermal vision) operate normally in space?

>I thought I read
>something somewhere about some PhysAd powers not being able to be geased
>because they're not on-off things...Anyone know what I'm talking about?
>:)

Nope, sorry. PhysAd abilities CAN be "geased", it reduces the cost BUT
it is absolute. A PhysAd cannot violate a geas to take penalty. If the
PhysAd bought Killing Hands (Time Geasa: Night Only) then during the day,
the Killing Hands ability effectively does not exist ...
<SNIP>

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 134
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:45:21 +0100
According to Davidson, Chris, at 10:51 on 5 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> > Not if they want to do magic outside the atmosphere, no. Otherwise,
> > they'll be just fine.
> >
> Okay, this differs a little from what I've been hearing... Some of the group
> claims that mages would go insane if they even left the gaesphere that
> surrounds the earth...even without casting spells...is this wrong?

Magicians can safely leave earth and go into space, but they can't do
anything magical while they're there. Casting a spell, attempting astral
perception or projection, or conjuring a spirit in space can prove
disastrous to your health; similarly, a focus that's switched on in space
gets drained and becomes useless. However, just _being_ in space isn't
dangerous to a magician. You could compare it to poisons, I guess --
they're not dangerous to your health as long as you don't use them.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Take advantage. Or so it seems.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 135
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:45:21 +0100
According to Mongoose, at 15:59 on 5 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> No, I don't. As far as I know, physad powers CAN be geased. (Maybe
> not after they are learned, but still...)

That's right, according to Awakenings you can take a geas on a physad
power and reduce its cost by 25%, at the price that you can't use the
power at all when you're breaking the geas.

> But yes, your basic point is well put- elves and trolls remain elves
> and trolls in space, so perhaps a beefed up adept would also remain so.
> He'd just better not use any powers to interact with astral space (likely
> including killing hands).

See my other post about this.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Take advantage. Or so it seems.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 136
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:45:21 +0100
According to Mongoose, at 14:02 on 5 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> However, the question of whether a physads (non astral perception)
> abilities would continue to work has never been addressed, afaik. In
> theory, if they did change, the adepts physical attributes and such might
> drop when they went into orbit. Weird.

That is what I decided on when a physad in our group went on a semi-
ballistic, and got into trouble with some hijackers. The powers didn't
work, and because Target: UCAS doesn't mention what happens to a physad in
a void, I made the player roll a magic loss check when the character did
use a power.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Take advantage. Or so it seems.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 137
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:02:12 EST
In a message dated 1/5/1999 3:40:26 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.COM writes:

> :> > So you are saying that Mages wouldn't make ideal astronauts? :)
> :>
> :> Not if they want to do magic outside the atmosphere, no. Otherwise,
> :> they'll be just fine.
> :>
> :Okay, this differs a little from what I've been hearing... Some of the
> group
> :claims that mages would go insane if they even left the gaesphere that
> :surrounds the earth...even without casting spells...is this wrong?
>
>
> Yes, that is wrong. One of the corporate court members of a time (in
> the novel "Technobabel"), was a mage,and traveled to and spent some time
> on Zurich orbital. He was annoyed and edgy because he was forced to
> change his habits and ignore a natural sense / ability, but had no
> unavoidable problems.
> However, the question of whether a physads (non astral perception)
> abilities would continue to work has never been addressed, afaik. In
> theory, if they did change, the adepts physical attributes and such might
> drop when they went into orbit. Weird.

From what I understand about magic, just going into space does not mean that
the ability to cast or use magic is lost, it just comes with a higher price
for it's use. So if a Adept uses their abilities in space, they would be
suffering something they are not used to, drain.

-Herc
Message no. 138
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:52:35 -0800
> Magicians can safely leave earth and go into space, but they can't do
> anything magical while they're there. Casting a spell, attempting astral
> perception or projection, or conjuring a spirit in space can prove
> disastrous to your health; similarly, a focus that's switched on in space
> gets drained and becomes useless. However, just _being_ in space isn't
> dangerous to a magician. You could compare it to poisons, I guess --
> they're not dangerous to your health as long as you don't use them.
>
Now that's the official data on that?

-Toffer
Message no. 139
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:05:56 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:52 AM 1/6/99 -0800, you wrote:
>> Magicians can safely leave earth and go into space, but they can't
do
>> anything magical while they're there. Casting a spell, attempting
astral
>> perception or projection, or conjuring a spirit in space can prove
>> disastrous to your health; similarly, a focus that's switched on in
space
>> gets drained and becomes useless.
<<Snip>>
>Now that's the official data on that?

It's about as offical as it gets, since the information comes from Neo
Anarchist's Guide to Real Life, though it does apear in shadowtalk
form, so the standard disclaimers apply.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 140
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mage's and Space
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:15:44 -0600
:Okay ... but does an Elf PhysAd with the strength of a Troll LOOK like a
:Troll? In other words, a Troll's strength is biological, but is a
:PhysAd's?


There is no mundane way to tell if somebody is a physad. Hell, the
fast ones ain't even jumpy. <Doug henning>"Its maaaagic..." </dh>
On the other hand, it is a "natural" attribute- whatever that means in
the case of an elf with a 10 body. I'd guess yes, he would be pretty damn
big- for an elf. Not troll sized, though.

Mongoose

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Mages and Space, you may also be interested in:

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