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Message no. 1
From: Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:14:30 -0400 (EDT)
After reading all the responses to my last post on the mage with the
spirit posse, I've got some other questions that I've had for awhile but
never got around to asking.

1) Can an elemental be asked to manifest around an NPC directly from
astral space?

2) Does it take a service to call up an elemental into astral space?

3) Does it take a service to have an elemental follow you around in astral
space while you move from one location to the next?

4) How hard is it for an elemental to find someone? I've read the rules
but it seems a bit easy. Case in point: last run was to retrieve a soil
sample from a desert island in the Pacific. PC sends an air elemental out
to do it for him. Run circumvented.

5) Is there any tech out there that would be used as anti-spirit
measures? You'd think that by now someone would have come up with
something.

In response to a couple of the other queries about whether or not wanting
this behavior to be curbed is appropriate, I'm all for players finding
ways around things. It's a bit boring however for this PC to have the
remote solution for any situation plus enough firepower to stop a truck
by using just one aspect of his powers over and over again. I'm not
interested in permanently preventing him from doing this, just interested
in finding ways to make it not be the silver bullet all the time.

Drew Curtis President DCR.NET (502)226-3376 Toll Free: (866)4DCRNET
Local Internet access: Frankfort Lawrenceburg Shelbyville Owenton
Louisville Lexington Versailles Nicholasville Midway Georgetown

http://www.fark.com: If it's not news, it's fark.
Message no. 2
From: Keith Duthie psycho@*********.co.nz
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 03:47:17 +1300 (NZDT)
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Drew Curtis wrote:

> After reading all the responses to my last post on the mage with the
> spirit posse, I've got some other questions that I've had for awhile but
> never got around to asking.
>
> 1) Can an elemental be asked to manifest around an NPC directly from
> astral space?

I'd assume so.

> 2) Does it take a service to call up an elemental into astral space?

No, that would be counter-productive.

> 3) Does it take a service to have an elemental follow you around in astral
> space while you move from one location to the next?

Only if you order it to. Otherwise it'll follow you anyway ;-)

> 4) How hard is it for an elemental to find someone? I've read the rules
> but it seems a bit easy. Case in point: last run was to retrieve a soil
> sample from a desert island in the Pacific. PC sends an air elemental out
> to do it for him. Run circumvented.

Don't forget that a remote service forfeits all the other services the
elemental owes the mage - make sure the player isn't just marking off 1
service. Also, look into the likelihood of the elemental being attacked
while it's away from the mage, and whether or not the target is on the
other side of a ward from the mage.

> 5) Is there any tech out there that would be used as anti-spirit
> measures? You'd think that by now someone would have come up with
> something.

Plenty. Look in MitS. Especially nasty is FAB strain III, which can effect
both the elemental and the mage. Guardian vines can also be
effective. Don't overdo them though - you may find it better to just make
sure that you aren't overpaying the team.

> In response to a couple of the other queries about whether or not wanting
> this behavior to be curbed is appropriate, I'm all for players finding
> ways around things. It's a bit boring however for this PC to have the
> remote solution for any situation plus enough firepower to stop a truck
> by using just one aspect of his powers over and over again. I'm not
> interested in permanently preventing him from doing this, just interested
> in finding ways to make it not be the silver bullet all the time.

The main downside of elementals is the cost. On average, for a mage with
conjuring 6, he'll get one success per summoning for force 6
elementals. This means that by using six at a time, he's effectively
paying 36,000¥ per combat - which shouldn't be viable.

--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 3
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:11:56 -0500
From: "Drew Curtis" <dcurtis@***.net>
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2


> After reading all the responses to my last post on the mage with the
> spirit posse, I've got some other questions that I've had for awhile but
> never got around to asking.
>
> 1) Can an elemental be asked to manifest around an NPC directly from
> astral space?

Yes, but that doesn't change the NPC's ability to resist/get out of the way,
etc...

> 2) Does it take a service to call up an elemental into astral space?

Huh? Clarifying this might help me at least.

> 3) Does it take a service to have an elemental follow you around in astral
> space while you move from one location to the next?

Hmmm... nitpicking at its finest line... ;-)

> 4) How hard is it for an elemental to find someone? I've read the rules
> but it seems a bit easy. Case in point: last run was to retrieve a soil
> sample from a desert island in the Pacific. PC sends an air elemental out
> to do it for him. Run circumvented.

Oh really??? I know as a GM I would have dramatically screwed with that in
some way to come back and later haunt the player-character in question that
tried that stunt. It says that an appropriate elemental or nature spirit
can *assist* in the recovering of materials for Talismongering/Gathering
purposes. Sending an Air Elemental to retrieve *DIRT*!!??!! Oh yeah,
there's a way to tick off an elemental in no short amount of time.

> 5) Is there any tech out there that would be used as anti-spirit
> measures? You'd think that by now someone would have come up with
> something.

But they can only come up with such if they are able to do so. And yes,
there are some limited "tech" ways against elementals... mostly having to do
with Elemental Vulnerability and Chemistry. But a *machine* that can fight
a spirit easily... short of the crazed rules for ramming a vehicle into a
spirit... nope, out of luck here.

> In response to a couple of the other queries about whether or not wanting
> this behavior to be curbed is appropriate, I'm all for players finding
> ways around things. It's a bit boring however for this PC to have the
> remote solution for any situation plus enough firepower to stop a truck
> by using just one aspect of his powers over and over again. I'm not
> interested in permanently preventing him from doing this, just interested
> in finding ways to make it not be the silver bullet all the time.

Of course, and having that attitude is healthy IMO.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 4
From: Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:24:34 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, NeoJudas wrote:

> > 1) Can an elemental be asked to manifest around an NPC directly from
> > astral space?
>
> Yes, but that doesn't change the NPC's ability to resist/get out of the way,
> etc...
>
Seems like doing this would be treated just like an engulf attack.

> > 2) Does it take a service to call up an elemental into astral space?
>
> Huh? Clarifying this might help me at least.
>
Once summoned, elementals usually sit around in elemental land unless
called. When called, they appear in astral space next to the
summoner. Is that a serve?


> > 4) How hard is it for an elemental to find someone? I've read the rules
> > but it seems a bit easy. Case in point: last run was to retrieve a soil
> > sample from a desert island in the Pacific. PC sends an air elemental out
> > to do it for him. Run circumvented.
>
> Oh really??? I know as a GM I would have dramatically screwed with that in
> some way to come back and later haunt the player-character in question that
> tried that stunt. It says that an appropriate elemental or nature spirit
> can *assist* in the recovering of materials for Talismongering/Gathering
> purposes. Sending an Air Elemental to retrieve *DIRT*!!??!! Oh yeah,
> there's a way to tick off an elemental in no short amount of time.
>
Laugh

> > 5) Is there any tech out there that would be used as anti-spirit
> > measures? You'd think that by now someone would have come up with
> > something.
>
> But they can only come up with such if they are able to do so. And yes,
> there are some limited "tech" ways against elementals... mostly having to
do
> with Elemental Vulnerability and Chemistry. But a *machine* that can fight
> a spirit easily... short of the crazed rules for ramming a vehicle into a
> spirit... nope, out of luck here.
>
Someone oughta build one. Wonder what would do the trick

Drew Curtis President DCR.NET (502)226-3376 Toll Free: (866)4DCRNET
Local Internet access: Frankfort Lawrenceburg Shelbyville Owenton
Louisville Lexington Versailles Nicholasville Midway Georgetown

http://www.fark.com: If it's not news, it's fark.
Message no. 5
From: Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:27:24 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Keith Duthie wrote:

> The main downside of elementals is the cost. On average, for a mage with
> conjuring 6, he'll get one success per summoning for force 6
> elementals. This means that by using six at a time, he's effectively
> paying 36,000¥ per combat - which shouldn't be viable.
>
I need to read these rules more closely then, I was always of the opinion
that you got a number of services equal to the force of the elemental.

At any rate, the mage usually blows karma into his summoning rolls to get
more successes. Seems like there's a decent split between people who
allow karma rolling for out-of-adventure stuff and people who don't.

Drew Curtis President DCR.NET (502)226-3376 Toll Free: (866)4DCRNET
Local Internet access: Frankfort Lawrenceburg Shelbyville Owenton
Louisville Lexington Versailles Nicholasville Midway Georgetown

http://www.fark.com: If it's not news, it's fark.
Message no. 6
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:09:19 -0700
At 13:27 10/17/00 -0400, Drew Curtis wrote:
>I need to read these rules more closely then, I was always of the opinion
>that you got a number of services equal to the force of the elemental.

No, it's based on the number of successes you score in the summoning.

>At any rate, the mage usually blows karma into his summoning rolls to get
>more successes. Seems like there's a decent split between people who
>allow karma rolling for out-of-adventure stuff and people who don't.

If someone's spending karma while summoning spirits, under the new
rules where karma doesn't refresh on a per-scene basis I wouldn't
refresh their karma pool until the refresh during the next adventure.

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." %%
Message no. 7
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:02:55 +0200
According to Drew Curtis, at 10:14 on 17 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

> 1) Can an elemental be asked to manifest around an NPC directly from
> astral space?

If it has Engulf power (as all elementals do) you could get it to
materialize and use Engulf, but not as one action -- it takes an action to
materialize (not to mention the spirit loses an initiative pass), and then
another to use the actual power.

> 2) Does it take a service to call up an elemental into astral space?

No. Provided the elemental has already been conjured (with the hermetic
circle and all) and placed on stand-by, all it takes is an action to call
it to you, at which time it will appear next to you in astral space as
always.

> 3) Does it take a service to have an elemental follow you around in astral
> space while you move from one location to the next?

No. They must remain withina certain distance of you, and I would assume
they do so automatically. They're essentially on a leash...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:02:16 -0500
From: "Drew Curtis" <dcurtis@***.net>
Subject: Re: Mages and spirts, take 2


> On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, NeoJudas wrote:
> > > 1) Can an elemental be asked to manifest around an NPC directly from
> > > astral space?
> Seems like doing this would be treated just like an engulf attack.

It would be for the most part. If such "power" is appropriate. Otherwise,
it would simply be treated as melee combat.

> > > 2) Does it take a service to call up an elemental into astral space?
> > Huh? Clarifying this might help me at least.
> Once summoned, elementals usually sit around in elemental land unless
> called. When called, they appear in astral space next to the
> summoner. Is that a serve?

Uh... oh geesh, ask me a question now that I've buried the books in the
basement for the game tonight. I *think* it is a service to call a spirit
back from the meta/nether regions of lalala land.

> > > 4) How hard is it for an elemental to find someone? I've read the
rules
> > > but it seems a bit easy. Case in point: last run was to retrieve a
soil
> > > sample from a desert island in the Pacific. PC sends an air elemental
out
> > > to do it for him. Run circumvented.
> >
> > Oh really??? I know as a GM I would have dramatically screwed with that
in
> > some way to come back and later haunt the player-character in question
that
> > tried that stunt. It says that an appropriate elemental or nature
spirit
> > can *assist* in the recovering of materials for Talismongering/Gathering
> > purposes. Sending an Air Elemental to retrieve *DIRT*!!??!! Oh yeah,
> > there's a way to tick off an elemental in no short amount of time.
> >
> Laugh

Isn't there a joke/phrase on this... "laugh it up dirtball?" (okay, so I
paraphrased it badly... but it would make for funny elementally based
personality jokes).

> > > 5) Is there any tech out there that would be used as anti-spirit
> > > measures? You'd think that by now someone would have come up with
> > > something.
> >
> > But they can only come up with such if they are able to do so. And yes,
> > there are some limited "tech" ways against elementals... mostly having
to do
> > with Elemental Vulnerability and Chemistry. But a *machine* that can
fight
> > a spirit easily... short of the crazed rules for ramming a vehicle into
a
> > spirit... nope, out of luck here.
> >
> Someone oughta build one. Wonder what would do the trick

There have been tons of things dreamed up, both in game/canon and out of.
With the coming of 3rd Edition and the redefinition, unless something is
Dual Natured, then the ability to interact is significantly impeded. I know
we've come up with ways using Quickenings on swords to allow a samurai to
engage in melee combat (the quickening is a quickened mana-blade spell, from
the Magesword entries). I suppose you could do similar things with other
items... but oh wouldn't that just be icky...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (Webmaster)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 9
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:44:06 -0700 (PDT)
> 1) Can an elemental be asked to manifest around an
NPC directly from astral space?

I'd say no. Manifesting around someone is actually
engulfing. I'd have to check, but I don't think you
can manifest AND engulf at the same time. And if not,
I'd generally disallow it.

> 2) Does it take a service to call up an elemental
into astral space?

No.

> 3) Does it take a service to have an elemental
follow you around in astral space while you move from
one location to the next?

No. Same as above. The only reason it MIGHT take a
service (not sure about this) is if you have it
hanging around for a day or longer.

> 4) How hard is it for an elemental to find someone?
I've read the rules but it seems a bit easy. Case in
point: last run was to retrieve a soil sample from a
desert island in the Pacific. PC sends an air
elemental out to do it for him. Run circumvented.

Uhhhh...beats me. Can't remember the rules off the top
of my head. I'd say that the soil sample one is fair.
I think that finding an individual person should be
more difficult, though.

> 5) Is there any tech out there that would be used as
anti-spirit measures? You'd think that by now someone
would have come up with something.
> Drew Curtis President DCR.NET (502)226-3376 Toll

You would, wouldn't you?

The only thing I can think of off-hand is a squirt
gun, or net gun or the like (maybe an ELD-AR - THAT'D
be cool, actually), loaded with FAB-3. Dunno how the
squirt would work, net guns should be able to do it
(they've already been set up with previous strains of
the bacteria) and I think the ELD-AR would work VERY
well with this. The only thing is you don't want to be
working with mages and you'd probably have to shoot
NEAR the spirit (depending on the KIND of spirit) in
order to crack the capsule and free the bacteria.

Geez, this is a HORRENDOUS idea.

Use it. ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 10
From: Jeff Long jalong8@****.com
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:35:55 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>

> > 4) How hard is it for an elemental to find someone?
> I've read the rules but it seems a bit easy. Case in
> point: last run was to retrieve a soil sample from a
> desert island in the Pacific. PC sends an air
> elemental out to do it for him. Run circumvented.

One thing I got thinking about was that the elemental is gonna need to carry
the sample back somehow. So while it may find the sample, how will it get
the sample back? IIRC (Doing this from the top of my head) the Elemental is
going to need ot be manifested to carry the sample back all the way, which
would mean that traveling at Astral speeds is out. If that's true then it
may not make it back to the runner group in time.
Message no. 11
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:43:24 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 12:16 AM
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2


>
>After reading all the responses to my last post on the mage with the
>spirit posse, I've got some other questions that I've had for awhile but
>never got around to asking.
>
>1) Can an elemental be asked to manifest around an NPC directly from
>astral space?
>

I believe that an astral being cannot pass through a living creature, hence
FAB and ivy-clad mage houses. The only way to manifest around an NPC is by
occupying the same area in Astral space as the person. Can't be done, at
least not without duplicating the Engulf power

>
>4) How hard is it for an elemental to find someone? I've read the rules
>but it seems a bit easy. Case in point: last run was to retrieve a soil
>sample from a desert island in the Pacific. PC sends an air elemental out
>to do it for him. Run circumvented.
>

A lot of nasty things can happen to a lone elemental out in the big blue...
Message no. 12
From: Iridios iridios@********.net
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 07:42:54 -0400
Simon and Fiona wrote:

> >After reading all the responses to my last post on the mage with the
> >spirit posse, I've got some other questions that I've had for awhile but
> >never got around to asking.
> >
> >1) Can an elemental be asked to manifest around an NPC directly from
> >astral space?
> >
>
> I believe that an astral being cannot pass through a living creature, hence
> FAB and ivy-clad mage houses.

That is no longer the case. Astral beings (including projectors) can
pass through living beings unless said beings are dual nature. In
other words, an astral projector cannot pass through astrally active
living creatures but can pass through just about anything itself.
This changed with the release of SR3 I believe.


> >
> >4) How hard is it for an elemental to find someone? I've read the rules
> >but it seems a bit easy. Case in point: last run was to retrieve a soil
> >sample from a desert island in the Pacific. PC sends an air elemental out
> >to do it for him. Run circumvented.

I, personally, would not have allowed that unless the runner had been
to the island himself sometime in the recent past. Without having
been there and gotten an "astral signature" of the island, how do you
describe to an air elemental where to find Kapa Kanui (totally made up
name)? And even if you can get the elemental there, which soil sample
would it pick up? Islands, particularly Pacific Islands IIRC, are the
results of volcanic events, and an older island may have as many as
three or four different types of soil. How would an *air* elemental
tell them apart?

> A lot of nasty things can happen to a lone elemental out in the big blue...

Or perhaps this particular soil sample has the unique ability of being
"deadly" to air elementals. :)


--
Iridios
--
Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept.

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.nbci.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
9:56:05 PM/236:03:00 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 13
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 07:35:22 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Iridios" <iridios@********.net>

> > A lot of nasty things can happen to a lone elemental out in the big
blue...
>
> Or perhaps this particular soil sample has the unique ability of being
> "deadly" to air elementals. :)

Like they have a vulnerability to it, or something... :-)
Message no. 14
From: Iridios iridios@********.net
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:52:38 -0400
Nexx wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Iridios" <iridios@********.net>
>
> > > A lot of nasty things can happen to a lone elemental out in the big
> blue...
> >
> > Or perhaps this particular soil sample has the unique ability of being
> > "deadly" to air elementals. :)
>
> Like they have a vulnerability to it, or something... :-)

Well... I was really thinking of something a *little* more deadly
than a mere vulnerability.


Plus, it was first thing in the morning for me, never my best time.
Unless I've been up all night. :)


--
Iridios
--
Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept.

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.nbci.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
9:56:05 PM/236:03:00 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 15
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Mages and spirts, take 2
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:06:31 GMT
>From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.org>
>>At any rate, the mage usually blows karma into his summoning rolls to get
>>more successes. Seems like there's a decent split between people who
>>allow karma rolling for out-of-adventure stuff and people who don't.
>
>If someone's spending karma while summoning spirits, under the new
>rules where karma doesn't refresh on a per-scene basis I wouldn't
>refresh their karma pool until the refresh during the next adventure.

In my group we rule that karma pool refreshes at the start and end of every
adventure, mostly becuase the TN to learn spells is so high :)>

Phil

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