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Message no. 1
From: Seth Scott <seth@***.UOREGON.EDU>
Subject: re: mages in the matrix
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 92 01:25:38 -0700
At a hideously early hour, Minotaur writes
"Do you believe a Free Spirit with the Power of Possession
coud enter Matrix through a decker he has control of?
What would he experience?"

_______

I _told_ you you were evil, Minotaur, and I understated it.

:)

>>>>>[I know that the spirits must strain their essences even to
shackle themselves to their physical shells; how much more difficult must
it be to become flesh and blood, in a resisting soul? I wonder if such
a synthesis would be horribly confused... Even as we, the Initiates, must
struggle through the metaplanes, I think a spirit would be able, with toil
to struggle through _our_ metaplanes....
I believe that such a spirit would lose its 'sanity,' though
(viz. Eliohann!), and it would be a pitifully poor net-runner, to
speak charitably...]<<<<<
-Woodsy, crossing fingers ....
Message no. 2
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:20:18 EST
Guys,

I have been trying to find something in the rulebooks about mages (and other
magically active individuals) and the problems they encounter when jacked into
either the matrix (which has been mentioned), and when rigged in.

If anyone can help in this area I would much appreciate it.

I have also asked the people at FASA about this and when I get a response back
I will share with you all what I get back from them.

Thanks, as I am trying to get my ducks in line before doing something.

Mike
Message no. 3
From: Da Twink Daddy <twinkie@*******.DMSC.K12.AR.US>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:36:43 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>


>I have been trying to find something in the rulebooks about mages (and
other
>magically active individuals) and the problems they encounter when jacked
into
>either the matrix (which has been mentioned), and when rigged in.


Y should they have problems, the interface is simple simsense. (Well, HOT
decks can be more than simple but, I digress) If they have the proper skill
(computer, vehicle skill) they should be able to use it just as well as any
schmuck.

You could follow the line that mages can "feel" their magic. (Makes it
interesting, mundanes could never really understand magic) If so, they'd
have distraction or annyance penalties because the simsense override will
not allow them to "feel" thier magic. (possibly, might not even be possible
to -- GM's call.) If you did something like this, I would say either half of
or all of thier magic rating as a penalty. However, keep in mind that any
interface that uses simsense override will cause this problem (Simsense
players and I believe even tortise interfaces...)

>If anyone can help in this area I would much appreciate it.

That's my options. (above) However, I don't subcribe to that pool of
thought. Magic, IMC, is much less "magical."

>I have also asked the people at FASA about this and when I get a response
back
>I will share with you all what I get back from them.


It'll be interesting to see FASA (probably) state huge penalties just to
make SR "classed." I hate classes.

>Thanks, as I am trying to get my ducks in line before doing something.


Your Welcome.
Message no. 4
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:47:30 +0100
>I have been trying to find something in the rulebooks about mages (and other
>magically active individuals) and the problems they encounter when jacked
into
>either the matrix (which has been mentioned), and when rigged in.

I think there's something in VR2 about mages jacking into matrix. As I
remember, it's something like adding your Magic to attribute to target
numbers.
For rigging, I think this should be a lot easier to jack. Let's say adding
half or even third of magic attribute to target numbers.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf.. Nor anyone.."
Tel : (France) 01-56-47-11-04
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:49:15 -0700
Airwasp wrote:
/
/ Guys,
/
/ I have been trying to find something in the rulebooks about mages (and other
/ magically active individuals) and the problems they encounter when jacked into
/ either the matrix (which has been mentioned), and when rigged in.

There was a rule in the original Matrix sourcebook about mages
suffering from something like a +2 to all TNs in the matrix. And
this was reflected in the first Shadowrun Fiction novel (the name
escapes me).

I think the last time the debate came up no one could find any
specific rules one way or the other in the most current rules or
sourcebooks. However, there are a number of sidebars and comments
that could lead one to believe that mages are not compatible with the
matrix.

This is one of those subjects for which the answer is in the eye of the
beholder :)

/ I have also asked the people at FASA about this and when I get a response back
/ I will share with you all what I get back from them.

Please do.

-David
--
"Belief is a truth held in the mind.
Faith is a fire in the heart."
- Joseph F. Newton
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 6
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:48:08 +0000
Airwasp, AKA AirWisp, wrote:
> I have been trying to find something in the rulebooks about mages (and other
> magically active individuals) and the problems they encounter when jacked into
> either the matrix (which has been mentioned), and when rigged in.

The main problem should be that they require a different set of
skills than they usually use, and need some cyberware. Depends a bit
on the style of the campaign. Ordinarily, a mage wouldn't be
any good at rigging/decking without sacrificing some magical
clout. Both magic, rigging and decking requires a lot of high skills
and cash (at least for hermetics), which is hard to get enough of to
be any good at all three. If that is not the case you might consider
using the rules in VR1.0, which attempted to limit mages in the
matrix. (Not having VR1.0 I cannot quote that.). I would be very
careful about letting the mage gain any advantage from spells while
decking. (More or less limited to the increase intelligence spell.).
Depends on your philosophy on what magic can and cannot do, of
course, but it's a suggestion. If allowed, any spell regarding the
deck itself would have TN 10 or higher (Very high tech target) and
have a 'complex' modifier thrown in for design... and then some.

> Thanks, as I am trying to get my ducks in line before doing something.

Sounds smart. Hm.... If it's something you expect Keith to balk at it
must be weird indeed. I think I'm curious about that something... ;)

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 7
From: Jose Vicente Mondejar Brell <jomonbre@***.UPV.ES>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:51:19 +0000
<Snip>
> I think there's something in VR2 about mages jacking into matrix. As
> I remember, it's something like adding your Magic to attribute to
> target numbers.
<Snip>

I think it is in VR1, but I dont have the books here and it's been a
lot of time since I last checked that

> Cobra.

--
Monde
Message no. 8
From: Da Twink Daddy <twinkie@*******.DMSC.K12.AR.US>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:13:15 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>


>>I have been trying to find something in the rulebooks about mages (and
other
>>magically active individuals) and the problems they encounter when jacked
>into
>>either the matrix (which has been mentioned), and when rigged in.
>
>I think there's something in VR2 about mages jacking into matrix. As I
>remember, it's something like adding your Magic to attribute to target
>numbers.


Actually, that was VR1 and I don't agree with it. (I hate classes.)

>For rigging, I think this should be a lot easier to jack. Let's say adding
>half or even third of magic attribute to target numbers.


I don't know it is still a simsense (ASSIST) interface, just from a
different point of view. I would say use the same modifiers as for decking.
(See my post for why you might actually use those mods.)

Da Twink Daddy ( twinkie@*******.dmsc.k12.ar.us gilmeth@*********.com
UIN:514984)
----------
"Don't hit me!! I'm in the Twilight Zone!!!" --Zippy the Pinhead
----------
http://vancove.dmsc.k12.ar.us/~twinkie/
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/3759/
Message no. 9
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:22:36 -0500
At 10:20 AM 3/27/98 EST, you wrote:
>Guys,
>
>I have been trying to find something in the rulebooks about mages (and other
>magically active individuals) and the problems they encounter when jacked
into
>either the matrix (which has been mentioned), and when rigged in.
>
>If anyone can help in this area I would much appreciate it.

In VR1, there were penalties to people with a Magic Attribute for decking.

In VR2, those penalties were dropped.

In Technobabel, it is stated that magicians often report difficulties in
the Matrix, since they can't "feel" their magic. It's not like splitting
headaches or anything, it's a disorienting sensation (I think it might be
like trying to spend an entire day wearing those red/blue 3D glass; things
would be odd, but not painful).

I take this to mean that magicians can deck, but it is really something of
a role-playing issue. If a magician is willing to have cyberware implanted
and spend karma to learn Computers, they can do it. It's a drain on their
growth in other areas though; I know my PC, the Dark Stranger, only has a
Computer skill of 2 or 3, and I doubt I'll ever push it higher because of
the karma cost.

This should help some.

Erik J.


"What was that popping sound?"

"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
Message no. 10
From: Jyster Cap <jyster007@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:37:33 -0800
> Guys,
>
> I have been trying to find something in the rulebooks about mages
(and other
> magically active individuals) and the problems they encounter when
jacked into
> either the matrix (which has been mentioned), and when rigged in.
>
The rules are in VR1 and VR2 does not mention
anything about mages and the matrix. I have asked
FASA about this also and they never gave me an
answer. They either threw away the rule or just
forgot about it. I think how it works is the
smaller of magic attribute and( sorcery or
magic theory ) I cant remember which one, with the
smallest number being a +1 modifier to your
matrix actions.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 11
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 01:16:36 -0700
At 13:22 27/03/98 -0500, you wrote:

>In Technobabel, it is stated that magicians often report difficulties in
>the Matrix, since they can't "feel" their magic. It's not like splitting
>headaches or anything, it's a disorienting sensation (I think it might be
>like trying to spend an entire day wearing those red/blue 3D glass; things
>would be odd, but not painful).

I would also compare this to a change I'm recently going through -- I have
contact lenses now, after wearing glasses for about 8-10 years. Although I
still see the same things I see each day, it's a completely different way
of seeing. After taking out my lenses and putting my glasses, it takes
awhile to get used to a few things, mainly having no peripheral vision.
It's amazing how much I miss wearing glasses that I see with contacts..

I think I wrote everything I intended to write.. : )

-Adam J
-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:56:05 +0100
Airwasp said on 10:20/27 Mar 98...

> I have been trying to find something in the rulebooks about mages (and other
> magically active individuals) and the problems they encounter when jacked into
> either the matrix (which has been mentioned), and when rigged in.
>
> If anyone can help in this area I would much appreciate it.

The only concrete rules that have been given for this were in Virtual
Realities (the original, not 2.0), where it's mentioned that GMs can give
magically active characters a TN penalty equal to their Magic attribute or
their Sorcery skill. This rule doesn't appear in any later books, so it's
up to you to decide whether FASA forgot to include it, or doesn't want it
to apply anymore.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Oost west, asbest.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 13
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 09:00:32 EST
In a message dated 98-03-27 10:43:02 EST, you write:

Twinkie Wrote ...

<< >I have been trying to find something in the rulebooks about mages (and
other
>magically active individuals) and the problems they encounter when jacked
into
>either the matrix (which has been mentioned), and when rigged in.


<< Y should they have problems, the interface is simple simsense. (Well, HOT
decks can be more than simple but, I digress) If they have the proper skill
(computer, vehicle skill) they should be able to use it just as well as any
schmuck.

<< You could follow the line that mages can "feel" their magic. (Makes it
interesting, mundanes could never really understand magic) If so, they'd
have distraction or annyance penalties because the simsense override will
not allow them to "feel" thier magic. (possibly, might not even be possible
to -- GM's call.) If you did something like this, I would say either half of
or all of thier magic rating as a penalty. However, keep in mind that any
interface that uses simsense override will cause this problem (Simsense
players and I believe even tortise interfaces...)

The reason I ask is that it one of the very first series of books the mage in
the series had a datajack and had problems when inside dealing with the
matrix.

>If anyone can help in this area I would much appreciate it.

<< That's my options. (above) However, I don't subcribe to that pool of
thought. Magic, IMC, is much less "magical."

>I have also asked the people at FASA about this and when I get a response
back
>I will share with you all what I get back from them.


<< It'll be interesting to see FASA (probably) state huge penalties just to
make SR "classed." I hate classes.

>Thanks, as I am trying to get my ducks in line before doing something.


<< Your Welcome.>>

I agree with you, I would not like to see SR begin putting in some sort of
class restriction thing.

I do have this to say, I do allow for magically active individuals to perform
decking and rigging within the nets though to do this they need to have either
something akin to a Reality Filter (that does not affect their performance to
act in the matrix at all, it just allows them to operate normally), and as for
rigging, we also applied the same costs as with putting in a reality filter
also.

Mike
Message no. 14
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 09:01:24 EST
In a message dated 98-03-27 10:43:11 EST, you write:

<< >I have been trying to find something in the rulebooks about mages (and
other
>magically active individuals) and the problems they encounter when jacked
into
>either the matrix (which has been mentioned), and when rigged in.

I think there's something in VR2 about mages jacking into matrix. As I
remember, it's something like adding your Magic to attribute to target
numbers.
For rigging, I think this should be a lot easier to jack. Let's say adding
half or even third of magic attribute to target numbers. >>

Cobra, if you could find that paragraph I would seriously enjoy it, even
though I spent about an hour trying to find that same piece of information.

Mike
Message no. 15
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 09:06:06 EST
In a message dated 98-03-27 10:51:42 EST, you write:

<< <Snip>
> I think there's something in VR2 about mages jacking into matrix. As
> I remember, it's something like adding your Magic to attribute to
> target numbers.
<Snip>

I think it is in VR1, but I dont have the books here and it's been a
lot of time since I last checked that

> Cobra. >>

Guys, there is a problem with that statement (though it is true IIRC) ... from
the back of the VR2 ...

"VR2 replaces the VR sourcebook. For use with SR2."

Hmmm, will be interesting to see FASA's response when I get it sometime in the
future.

Mike
Message no. 16
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 09:09:58 EST
In a message dated 98-03-27 10:56:38 EST, you write:

<< > I have been trying to find something in the rulebooks about mages (and
other
> magically active individuals) and the problems they encounter when jacked
into
> either the matrix (which has been mentioned), and when rigged in.

The main problem should be that they require a different set of
skills than they usually use, and need some cyberware. Depends a bit
on the style of the campaign. Ordinarily, a mage wouldn't be
any good at rigging/decking without sacrificing some magical
clout. Both magic, rigging and decking requires a lot of high skills
and cash (at least for hermetics), which is hard to get enough of to
be any good at all three. If that is not the case you might consider
using the rules in VR1.0, which attempted to limit mages in the
matrix. (Not having VR1.0 I cannot quote that.). I would be very
careful about letting the mage gain any advantage from spells while
decking. (More or less limited to the increase intelligence spell.).
Depends on your philosophy on what magic can and cannot do, of
course, but it's a suggestion. If allowed, any spell regarding the
deck itself would have TN 10 or higher (Very high tech target) and
have a 'complex' modifier thrown in for design... and then some.

Guys, I am not going to put magic into the matrix (though Keith and I, yes, I,
have found a way to so -and boy does it suck eggs royally).

> Thanks, as I am trying to get my ducks in line before doing something.

Sounds smart. Hm.... If it's something you expect Keith to balk at it
must be weird indeed. I think I'm curious about that something... ;) >>

Personally, Fade, I won't take offense from this statement, just please don't
say things about Keith, it hurts me just as much.

And it is not something Keith would balk at, it is actually something that
PlotD (yes, this does mean that I have joined and am asking around some)
requests. Once I have some plausible answers and other things I'll bring it
up to them.

Fade, if you did not intend to be as grating on Keith I am sorry, the last ten
hours of my day at the post office were not very enjoyable at all.

Mike
Message no. 17
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 02:57:08 -0800
Airwasp wrote:
>
> I think there's something in VR2 about mages jacking into matrix. As I
> remember, it's something like adding your Magic to attribute to target
> numbers.
> For rigging, I think this should be a lot easier to jack. Let's say adding
> half or even third of magic attribute to target numbers. >>

IIRC, one of the older (possibly OOP) modules mentions something about
it. I think it was Ivy and Chrome

Panther
Message no. 18
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 08:56:50 -0700
At 09:06 28/03/98 EST, you wrote:
>
> I think it is in VR1, but I dont have the books here and it's been a
> lot of time since I last checked that
>
>
>Guys, there is a problem with that statement (though it is true IIRC) ...
from
>the back of the VR2 ...
>
>"VR2 replaces the VR sourcebook. For use with SR2."

So?
It's one of those "plot rules", in my opinion, and doesn't just disappear
for no reason. If they write a game reason that fixed datajacks or the
'trix in away that didn't bother magically active characters anymore, then
fine. If the rule just disappears, and you want to use it, then hell, use it.

If a rule doesn't exist, and you want to use it, use it. If a rule exists
and you don't want to use it, don't use it.

-Adam J



-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
Message no. 19
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:27:25 -0500
Once upon a time, Airwasp wrote;

>I have been trying to find something in the rulebooks about mages (and other
>magically active individuals) and the problems they encounter when jacked
>into either the matrix (which has been mentioned), and when rigged in.
>If anyone can help in this area I would much appreciate it.
>I have also asked the people at FASA about this and when I get a response
>back I will share with you all what I get back from them.

VR1.0. The rule has never been reintroduced since then. That rule
was extremely penalizing and very unpopular with this list. I favor a
penalty but a lesser one than VR1.0's. I would prefer to see one as a
flaw allowable to magicians with datajacks only.
Fiction has made mention of the difficulty in the interaction of
technology and magic in the Awakenings rule book and Never Deal with a
Dragon. My reading is behind on novels so I cannot verify any further.

-MC23, who is happy having his computer running again and to be back
online-
Message no. 20
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 19:08:10 +0000
Airwasp wrote:

>> Sounds smart. Hm.... If it's something you expect Keith to balk
>> at itmust be weird indeed. I think I'm curious about that
>> something... ;) >>
>
> Personally, Fade, I won't take offense from this statement, just please don't
> say things about Keith, it hurts me just as much.

I have nothing at all against either you or Keith, and I consider
Keith a friend. I mean it, and I would like to think it was mutual. I
know Keith has ideas which stretches the boundaries of Shadowrun, and
I know he is a player in your group. He does not strike me as someone
who would nitpick at a new idea. It was in that context, and that
context only, that I made the statement.

If he took it in any other way than with a wry smile I'm very sorry.
I am not on this list to insult those I consider friends, nor, for
that matter, anyone else.

> Fade, if you did not intend to be as grating on Keith I am sorry, the last ten
> hours of my day at the post office were not very enjoyable at all.

*comfort*
No apology is needed. I know from personal experience it's easy to
read things into posts which isn't intended if you're in a bad mood
or tired. (I do most of my list activities well after midnight, which
I'm afraid might be reflected in some of what I write.).
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 21
From: Jerry Hill <agh60070@*******.CC.UCF.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 18:20:54 -0500
> I have been trying to find something in the rulebooks about mages
> (and other magically active individuals) and the problems they encounter
> when jacked into either the matrix (which has been mentioned), and when
rigged in.

I think this was dropped in VR2, but reminds me of a personal anecdote.

A long time ago, we started a fairly high powered campaign, where all of the
characters started out as employees of Renraku. One of the characters was a
decker who ended up being a shaman. This was before the first SR novel came
out, and really surprised us when someone else used a similar concept.

Anyway, his totem (Owl) tended to get a bit upset when the shaman entered
the matrix, and "gifted" him with blindness every time he did it.

I guess the point is that this should probably be more of a roleplaying
issue than anything else. You need to decide in your game what the effects
of being magically active has on simsense in general and decking/rigging
specifically.


Jerry Hill
--------------------------------------------
'Rome wasn't built in a day
 but it didn't take long to go up in flames'
 - Electric Hellfire Club
Message no. 22
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 19:12:05 EST
In a message dated 98-03-28 12:52:42 EST, you write:

<< > Mind if I post your response to the RN group ?
>

No, I don't mind. Go right ahead. >>

In a message dated 98-03-27 10:17:23 EST, you write:

> I have been trying to find information in the rulebooks where it states that
> mages have a problem with being jacked into the matrix or even rigged in (
> though this is not mentioned at all).
>
> Could you possibly help me out and point out to me the rules in question
> about this problem that mages (and other magically adept people have) with
> being in the matrix and the rules concerning them doing such.
>

Guys, heeeeeeeeere Jon ................

=============================================================

Hmmmmm......

Well, I know that there were rules for applying penalties to magicians
attempting to deck the Matrix in VR1, but as far as I can see, there are no
such rules in VR2. Since VR2 is in principle supposed to supersede VR1, one
would infer then that there are no penalties (or at least, no rules) for mages
decking the Matrix.

Also, in some of the early fiction there was some vague allusions to
situations when magicians attempted to deck the Matrix. In "Graverobbers" (the
short story in the Into the Shadows anthology), Wili the shaman felt ill at
ease riding shotgun on a hitcher jack, but since a hitcher jack connection
doesn't allow the user to interact with the Matrix, it didn't hint at all how
it affected Wili's performance.

And in Never Deal With a Dragon, Sam Verner's icon limped while he was in the
Matrix, and Sam himself suffered from headaches afterwards. (However, it was
never definitely made clear whether or not these side effects had any
significant effect on Sam's performance as a decker.)

Those are the only references to the interaction of magic and simsense that I
am aware of. Neither the first Rigger Black Book nor Rigger 2 made any
references to using magic while jacked into a vehicle or remote control
network.

So, drawing conclusions from the above, one would deduce that there are no
rules penalizing magicians interacting with simsense devices (i.e., decking
and rigging). A magician might feel very uncomfortable while jacked in, or may
have some lingering side effects afterwards, but those are purely role-playing
issues, and as such should be left to the judgement of the gamemaster and
players.

(I'd also remind you that anything a magician sees or experiences while jacked
in is not a valid target for a spell. Since the cyberdeck or rigged
system/vehicle isn't an integral part of the magician's natural senses [i.e.,
not paid for with Essence], anything the cyberdeck or rigged system
sees/detects does not meet line-of-sight criteria. This pretty much
invalidates all of the character's magical abilities while he or she is jacked
in, as the only spells that can be cast are those that affect only the
magician.)

Well, that's my interpretation, anyway. Make of it what you will. Hope it
helps.

-- Jon
Message no. 23
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 03:52:08 -0500
Once upon a time, Airwasp wrote;

>Guys, heeeeeeeeere Jon ................
>
>=============================================================
>
>Hmmmmm......
>
>Well, I know that there were rules for applying penalties to magicians
>attempting to deck the Matrix in VR1, but as far as I can see, there are no
>such rules in VR2. Since VR2 is in principle supposed to supersede VR1, one
>would infer then that there are no penalties (or at least, no rules) for
>mages decking the Matrix.

Inferring is still a weak foundation to draw from. I've proven
before that FASA has made omissions in the past. 3rd edition should
hopefully lay this question to rest. As far as possible outcomes of this
decision I believe this list's consensus was weighted in against
penalties. In the end you are left with making your own house rule to
suit your own personal style.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 24
From: Quicksilver <qwksilvr@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 08:20:46 -0600
At 07:12 PM 3/28/98 EST, you quoted the following:

<<snippage>>

>(I'd also remind you that anything a magician sees or experiences while
jacked
>in is not a valid target for a spell. Since the cyberdeck or rigged
>system/vehicle isn't an integral part of the magician's natural senses [i.e.,
>not paid for with Essence], anything the cyberdeck or rigged system
>sees/detects does not meet line-of-sight criteria. This pretty much
>invalidates all of the character's magical abilities while he or she is
jacked
>in, as the only spells that can be cast are those that affect only the
>magician.)

Mostly true. IMO, using Magic Fingers would be allowed as the
description specifically mentions that: "he fingers can reach any point the
magician can see. The casting magician can use a clairvoyance spell or even
remote-viewing technology to get a close-up of the scene, as long as the
actual location is within his view." Actually makes magical security a big
issue on any sort of live broadcast :).
Hg

....an analog person, stuck, in a digital world
Message no. 25
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:44:10 +0000
On 29 Mar 98, Quicksilver disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

<snip>
> Mostly true. IMO, using Magic Fingers would be allowed as the
> description specifically mentions that: "he fingers can reach any
> point the magician can see. The casting magician can use a
> clairvoyance spell or even remote-viewing technology to get a
> close-up of the scene, as long as the actual location is within his
> view." Actually makes magical security a big issue on any sort of
> live broadcast :).

Well, IMAO that is pretty easy to understand: as long as physical
location is in the physical LOS, it doesn't matter what magician uses
to see the target (this actually makes manipulation of stuff under a
microscope possible).

OTOH if the broadcast comes from another city, or even another room
that is separated from the magician with a wall - well, the mage's
got no luck. LOS rule still applies.


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
The price of being an Amberite is that sometimes you can't even trust yourself. -
Corwin
Message no. 26
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:21:16 -0500
Once upon a time, Quicksilver wrote;

> Mostly true. IMO, using Magic Fingers would be allowed as the
>description specifically mentions that: "he fingers can reach any point the
>magician can see. The casting magician can use a clairvoyance spell or even
>remote-viewing technology to get a close-up of the scene, as long as the
>actual location is within his view." Actually makes magical security a big
>issue on any sort of live broadcast :).

Remote optics means fiber optics, mirrors or lenses only. The only
exception to this is Electronic Magnification cyber eyes. That is because
the magician has made those eyes a part of himself. Microscopes and
telescopes using lenses is the remote viewing technology in question in
this instance.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 27
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:07:34 +0200
>>I have been trying to find something in the rulebooks about mages (and other
>>magically active individuals) and the problems they encounter when jacked
>>into either the matrix (which has been mentioned), and when rigged in.
>>If anyone can help in this area I would much appreciate it.
>>I have also asked the people at FASA about this and when I get a response
>>back I will share with you all what I get back from them.
>
> VR1.0. The rule has never been reintroduced since then. That rule
>was extremely penalizing and very unpopular with this list. I favor a
>penalty but a lesser one than VR1.0's. I would prefer to see one as a
>flaw allowable to magicians with datajacks only.
> Fiction has made mention of the difficulty in the interaction of
>technology and magic in the Awakenings rule book and Never Deal with a
>Dragon. My reading is behind on novels so I cannot verify any further.

Here is a proposition :
Mages get +2 to all TN within matrix except if they use reality filters
adapted to their own views.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf.. Nor anyone.."
Tel : (France) 01-56-47-11-04
Message no. 28
From: Kristling <kristling@*******.CROSSWINDS.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 03:27:58 -0500
William Gallas wrote:
>
> Here is a proposition :
> Mages get +2 to all TN within matrix except if they use reality filters
> adapted to their own views.
>
I think that's a balanced idea. I don't have VR2 yet, but from what I've
heard, a sculpted system might over ride the filter.

Hey! MagicNet must be sculpted after the common starting point, the
ethiric plane, too allow mages and the odd shaman to jack in with
minamil effect on their skill.
--
"First, they came for the labor unions but I wasn't a labor unionist,
so I didn't speak up. Then they came for the Communists but I wasn't
a Communist, so I didn't speak up. Then they came for the Jews but I
wasn't a Jew, so I didn't speak up. Then they came for the Catholics
but I wasn't a Catholic, so I didn't speak up. Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak up." - Pastor Martin Niemoller
--Your friendly web crawlin' cyber Raven shaman, nee Wannabe comic book
writer, Daniel Sauve
AKA KRISTLING RAVENWING
Message no. 29
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 02:47:54 -0700
At 10:07 30/03/98 +0200, you wrote:

>Here is a proposition :
>Mages get +2 to all TN within matrix except if they use reality filters
>adapted to their own views.

I think I remember proposing something like this to Steve K. back when he
was asking for ideas on this subject sometime last year, although I think I
only used a +1 modifier.

-Adam J
-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
Message no. 30
From: Matthew Waddilove <m_waddilove@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 05:50:20 PST
>Jon Wrote
>
>(I'd also remind you that anything a magician sees or experiences while
jacked
>in is not a valid target for a spell. Since the cyberdeck or rigged
>system/vehicle isn't an integral part of the magician's natural senses
[i.e.,
>not paid for with Essence], anything the cyberdeck or rigged system
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>sees/detects does not meet line-of-sight criteria. This pretty much
>invalidates all of the character's magical abilities while he or she is
jacked
>in, as the only spells that can be cast are those that affect only the
>magician.)

Is anyone think in what I'm thinking?

Could a Mage with a C2 (Cranial Cyber) deck cast spells at objects in
the matrix or at least at objects in his deck?

hmmm fun Idea!

-Matthew Waddilove

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 31
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:07:13 -0500
On 30 Mar 98 at 5:50, Matthew Waddilove wrote:

> Could a Mage with a C2 (Cranial Cyber) deck cast spells at objects
> in the matrix or at least at objects in his deck?

Nope. Because there are no "objects" in the matrix, and there are no
"objects" in his deck. Everything about the matrix is a virtual
hallucination. The iconic imagery is not real.

> hmmm fun Idea!

Fun to think about, yes. Practical? No.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
- DREKHEAD - |"Let's face it. Sometimes your a
- drekhead@***.net - | pigeon, and sometimes your the
*-ShadowRN - GridSec Division-* | statue."
"To Protect and To Serve" |-Unknown
=================================================================
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
Message no. 32
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:24:50 -0700
Matthew Waddilove wrote:
/
/ Is anyone think in what I'm thinking?
/
/ Could a Mage with a C2 (Cranial Cyber) deck cast spells at objects in
/ the matrix or at least at objects in his deck?

IMO, no. A deckers deck (cranial or otherwise) creates a virtual
representation of the matrix, an illusion in his mind. The matrix
actually exists as fiber optic cables, chips, and programs.
Non-manipulation spells won't have any effect on the matrix because
the mage isn't viewing the matrix directly. It'd be like trying to
cast a spell at a target viewed on a TV screen.

It's theoretically possible with Manipulation spells, but the
resources required make it prohibitive. It would require a mage with
significant knowledge of magic, magic theory, computer hardware,
computer software, computer programing and computer theory.

If a mage had all of the required skills at significant levels (5+) I
believe it would be possible to create manipulation spells that could
in turn create physical programs. Even so, it would take a long time.

And, the GM would have to determine how the rules for spell creation
would apply and the effects of the spells themselves. It would be a
bitch to figure out the details (probably a whole sourcebook) and not
something that I would want to deal with.

But if you want to go for it for your game, good luck :)

-David
--
"Belief is a truth held in the mind.
Faith is a fire in the heart."
- Joseph F. Newton
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 33
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:59:55 -0500
Once upon a time, William Gallas wrote;

>Here is a proposition :
>Mages get +2 to all TN within matrix except if they use reality filters
>adapted to their own views.

Reality Filters would have no effect negating the fact that the
magicians magical awareness or 6th sense knows that the forced reality of
the matrix is not real. This doesn't hinder the use of the matrix for
standard activities but only becomes an problems when more attention and
control must be used such as the criminal act of invasive matrix
endeavors. I've play a few mages before with datajacks for the sole
purpose of information retrieval. Decking was never their use. Magicknet
or Shadowland for that matter is not a corporate system where the user
must be overriding system functions to poke around. Once it's location
and pass code is known then most of the information is open to the public
basically. Those systems are bound to have tortoises using them
(Magicknet especially).

The +2 target modifier does mesh well with Shadowrun itself (+2
being that mystical number of most target modifiers) and is a lot more
playable than VR1.0's rule. I think the future should hold this as either
a flaw or an edge which negates it. That's as close to pleasing all the
people on this subject as it's ever going to get.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 34
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:15:53 -0500
At 08:20 AM 3/29/98 -0600, you wrote:

> Mostly true. IMO, using Magic Fingers would be allowed as the
>description specifically mentions that: "he fingers can reach any point the
>magician can see. The casting magician can use a clairvoyance spell or even
>remote-viewing technology to get a close-up of the scene, as long as the
>actual location is within his view." Actually makes magical security a big
>issue on any sort of live broadcast :).
> Hg

Ah, totally false. Well, as far as magic in the matrix goes.

Look at the description of Magic Fingers that you quote. You can use
remote-viewing technology as long as the actual location is within his view.

What's the actual location of the Mitsuhama Pagoda Icon? What's the actual
location of the data that the decker/mage is attempting to access? What's
the actual location of any of what is "seen and sensed" in the Matrix?

You might argue that this data resides on a server or something. Okay,
we'll work with that. If Bobby the decker mage is in Seattle, and he wants
to use a Matrix spell on the data store in Fuchi's mainframe, he's out of
luck; that data store is on a server in Japan, which isn't within Bobby's
view.

The Matrix is really nothing more than a consensual hallucination defined
by certain rules that allow anyone to access it (and more specifically,
allow your computer to be able to "talk" to any other computer). Otaku
might disagree, but the Matrix isn't "real." It's only as real as a dream
or any other hallucination.

Which all comes down to the basic fact that Magic cannot be performed
within the Matrix. And while it may appear that the Otaku can do magic, it
is highly unlikely. Yes, the answer to that is fuzzy right now. But it
clearly isn't magic in the "normal, traditional" sense.

Erik J.


"What was that popping sound?"

"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
Message no. 35
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:28:28 -0600
At 05:50 AM 98-03-30 -0800, you wrote:
>>Jon Wrote
>>
>>(I'd also remind you that anything a magician sees or experiences while
>jacked
>>in is not a valid target for a spell. Since the cyberdeck or rigged
>>system/vehicle isn't an integral part of the magician's natural senses
>[i.e.,
>>not paid for with Essence], anything the cyberdeck or rigged system
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>sees/detects does not meet line-of-sight criteria. This pretty much
>>invalidates all of the character's magical abilities while he or she is
>jacked
>>in, as the only spells that can be cast are those that affect only the
>>magician.)
>
>Is anyone think in what I'm thinking?
>
>Could a Mage with a C2 (Cranial Cyber) deck cast spells at objects in
>the matrix or at least at objects in his deck?
>
>hmmm fun Idea!
>
>-Matthew Waddilove

Not very partical though. If I remember correctly a good C2 deck is
prohibitivly essence expensive if you use VR2 rules.

SteveD
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 36
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 05:20:25 -0500
Message text written by Shadowrun Discussion
>I do have this to say, I do allow for magically active individuals to
perform
decking and rigging within the nets though to do this they need to have
either
something akin to a Reality Filter (that does not affect their performanc=
e
to
act in the matrix at all, it just allows them to operate normally), and a=
s
for
rigging, we also applied the same costs as with putting in a reality filt=
er
also.

Mike<


When I played my Mage/Decker using the +2/Magic Attribute VR1 rule. I ha=
d
the Reality filter icons set in such a way as my programs represented
spells , (Powerbolt, Detect enemy, etc.) This gave me improved modifiers
when the filter worked, but really messed with thing when it didn;t. As m=
y
deck had to render unfamiliar program icons. =


Rob..
Message no. 37
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:07:08 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 05:20 AM 4/2/98 -0500, Rob wrote:
>When I played my Mage/Decker using the +2/Magic Attribute VR1 rule.
I had
>the Reality filter icons set in such a way as my programs represented
>spells , (Powerbolt, Detect enemy, etc.) This gave me improved
modifiers
>when the filter worked, but really messed with thing when it didn;t.
As my
>deck had to render unfamiliar program icons.

I have an issue with the "have your Mage use a reality filter to get
around the unaturalness of the Matrix" solution to this.

I've seen quoted in a few different sourcebooks the fact all atempts
to record magical activity (spellcasting, asenseing, and the like)
with ASIST have failed. For some unknown reason, mystic activity can
not be picked up by any method for recording sim. The sim does pick up
the results of the spell casting, such as pain from high drain spells,
but it does not pick up the feel of the actual spellcasting.
Similarly, there are dificulties with the skill-capture system used to
record skillsofts. This is why there are Magical Theory knowsofts, but
no Sorcery or Conjuring activesofts.

This brings up an interesting question. If there isn't a recorded
reference of what a spell should feel like when it's cast, how do you
program a reality filter to feel right? It'd be like a deaf person
trying to play a song by ear.
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-- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
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Message no. 38
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:37:25 -0500
Message text written by Paul Gettle
>This brings up an interesting question. If there isn't a recorded
>reference of what a spell should feel like when it's cast, how do you
>program a reality filter to feel right? It'd be like a deaf person
>trying to play a song by ear.
>

If your programming for another then i agree. If you are working for
yourself, then you simply play with the variables until it feels right to=

you. This would take ages, and the moment you hit a hard (see scupltured)=

system then everything goes to pot. =


I would compare it to a 'musican, you can not read music. I've known a
coupleof bloody good muso's with no formal training just alot of talant.
With the Object orientated coding arround today the actual programming
theory isn't that difficult, All you have to do is tweak the inputs to a
function to produce the outputs. Most of the time you have to write your
own functions, but If your using a toolkit which happens to provide the
functiinality you require, then its just a case of fixing the numbers. I
see a reality filter as ths set of fuctions, All you need to do is
associate the program with a desired effect. =


If it is decided that the Mage still has the plusses to the target number=
s
then so be it, but at least he can still think in tearms of spells and
magic when hes in the Matrix space, I would think thats worth at least a =

rection bonus.

rob....
Message no. 39
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:05:14 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:37 AM 4/3/98 -0500, rob wrote:
>Message text written by Paul Gettle
>>This brings up an interesting question. If there isn't a recorded
>>reference of what a spell should feel like when it's cast, how do
you
>>program a reality filter to feel right? It'd be like a deaf person
>>trying to play a song by ear.
>>
>
>If your programming for another then i agree. If you are working for
>yourself, then you simply play with the variables until it feels
right to
>you. This would take ages, and the moment you hit a hard (see
scupltured)
>system then everything goes to pot.
>
>I would compare it to a 'musican, you can not read music. I've known
a
>coupleof bloody good muso's with no formal training just alot of
talant.

Speculation here. Suppose that the reason that mystic activity isn't
recorded on sim is just because for whatever 'magical' reason, it just
can't be. A virtuoso on the pipe organ would be hard pressed to get
the same kind of music from say, an acordian.

>With the Object orientated coding arround today the actual
programming
>theory isn't that difficult, All you have to do is tweak the inputs
to a
>function to produce the outputs. Most of the time you have to write
your
>own functions, but If your using a toolkit which happens to provide
the
>functiinality you require, then its just a case of fixing the
numbers. I
>see a reality filter as ths set of fuctions, All you need to do is
>associate the program with a desired effect.

"One definition of magic is the ability to go mad in a very specific
way for a limited time." Grimoire 1, p. 51

Prehaps, it is currently beyond the scope of the expert system code
that drives deck reality filters to be able to recreate madness
convincingly enough to let a mystic feel like he's really casting a
spell. And even if it could, would RAS cutouts supress spellcasting
activity? (visions of a decking mage tossing Attack 5 at some IC, only
to find his meat body's mind thinks it's really casting a fireball
spell.

>If it is decided that the Mage still has the plusses to the target
numbers
>then so be it, but at least he can still think in tearms of spells
and
>magic when hes in the Matrix space, I would think thats worth at
least a
>rection bonus.

I don't see why not. The old VR1 rule never said that a mystic
wouldn't recieve any bonuses from Reality Filters, just that they
would have a plus to their target numbers.

This wasn't just because mystics have different sets of reflexes, with
their training being in other areas. It's because, love it or hate it,
the mystic lives in a world that is awash with the currents of mana.
(Insert Yoda's "Luminous Beings are We" speech here) For the mystic,
reality is different on a fundemental level. While ASIST might be able
to recreate reality for a mundane passibly enough, the reality it
creates lacks a magical dimension.

However, since the rule didn't apear in VR2, I tend to think that
FASA's attitude is "Even so, that isn't enough to really give out a
modifier for."

Personally, I'd only invoke the rule for especially stressful
situations.
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--
-- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
625A FFF0 76DC A077 D21C 556B BB58 00AA
Message no. 40
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 20:12:18 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
>This brings up an interesting question. If there isn't a recorded
>reference of what a spell should feel like when it's cast, how do you
>program a reality filter to feel right? It'd be like a deaf person
>trying to play a song by ear.


Not really. A mage knows what it is like, and if he was also a drek
hot programmer, he could whip up some code that emulates the whole
'feel'. (Not that I actually agree in any way with mages getting a
penalty in the matrix).

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
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http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 41
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:06:06 -0800
----------
> From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
> Date: Friday, April 03, 1998 2:12 AM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
> >This brings up an interesting question. If there isn't a recorded
> >reference of what a spell should feel like when it's cast, how do you
> >program a reality filter to feel right? It'd be like a deaf person
> >trying to play a song by ear.
>
>
> Not really. A mage knows what it is like, and if he was also a drek
> hot programmer, he could whip up some code that emulates the whole
> 'feel'. (Not that I actually agree in any way with mages getting a
> penalty in the matrix).
>

Okay, this brings up something that I've been wondering... I remember
reading a while back about UV systems (it's been a while since I picked up
VR2.0, so please don't flame too bad if I get things mucked up). Now, the
premise behind them is that they are super detailed. Life like. So you
slap a mage into one of these: How does he react? In your opinion, can
you detect and simulate the neural signature of magic/astral perception,
etc, to be able to suppress his interaction with the real world and
simulate the effects in the UV system?
Message no. 42
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:24:38 -0600
> Not really. A mage knows what it is like, and if he was also a drek
> hot programmer, he could whip up some code that emulates the whole
> 'feel'. (Not that I actually agree in any way with mages getting a
> penalty in the matrix).

One really weird way that I came up with to explain why mages get a penalty in
the Matrix (which I have absolutely no way of backing up) is this: I assume
that the matrix is actually a technological metaplane. Mages have trouble
dealing with it because they are used to sensing the astral through a very
specific sense, and using a different part of the brain for sensing throws them
off. Deckers, who are going to be mundanes, have no such perception problems,
because their minds don't have any expectations. If a mage were to learn the
way to this metaplane (I hold that standard magical theory helps to teach
magicians to reach the eight known metaplanes), he would have no trouble with
perceptions, and wouldn't have to worry about the TN modifier.
Each deck (or computer) is the tecnological equivalent of the Astral Gateway
power, allowing mundanes onto this rarified astral plane. Deckers are the
mundanes of the Matrix, but are the skilled ones. They have skills and
attributes suited to matrix-work, much like someone with high mental attributes
is better off going through an Astral Gateway than someone with low ones. The
size and shape of Gateway (deck), however, determines what can be brought
along. Someone using a Fairlight Excalibur can bring along more of his talent
than someone who is using an Etch-a-sketch with RAM, simply because his
personal gateway allows more abilities.
Now, if even the mighty Fastjack is a mundane in the Matrix, who are the
mages? That's right, the Otaku. Just like a mundane on the astral can't match
all but the weakest mage, a decker has little chance against an Otaku who knows
what he's doing.
This analogy lets you draw some other ones, as well. A deck's programs are
like spells. More independant programs (search bots, IC), are like spirits,
summoned by using very precise formulas (code) and set to do a certain task.
An AI is like a free spirit, able to do more than listen to whoever pushes its
buttons, but still beholden to those that control the secret of its true name
(source code).

Now, you have to realize that, since I don't use deckers (all of them are
NPC's, and they get the information I want the players to have), I know diddly
about the Otaku except what was written in Denver, so this may be way off, but
its a fun one to work with, anyway.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
************
Yet, I'm also a man who's constantly strivin' for a perfection I'll never
achieve... and probably wouldn't even recognize it if I did.
-Logan, in issue 124 of "Wolverine"
***********
Am Moireach Mor!
Message no. 43
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:51:15 -0500
At 05:24 PM 4/3/98 -0600, you wrote:

<snip magical metaplanar Matrix>

Nexx, that has *got* to be one of the *the* most bizarre theories I have
yet to see on this list.

How can technology *create* a metaplane? In theory, I can see technology
opening a gate to another physical dimension, but that is totally different
than creating a magical metaplane.

I suppose if it works for your game fine, but as I understand the games
rules, it is totally illogical, improbable and downright impossible.

Erik J.


"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."
Message no. 44
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:16:10 -0600
> Nexx, that has *got* to be one of the *the* most bizarre theories I have
> yet to see on this list.
Thank you.

> How can technology *create* a metaplane? In theory, I can see technology
> opening a gate to another physical dimension, but that is totally different
> than creating a magical metaplane.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. Technology didn't create the metaplane, but rather
allowed people to access it. Computers were the first to access the metaplane,
bringing knowledge of it to the world, and allowing the Otaku to develop.
I can already hear people ask "Why was Chicago cut off, then, when they cut
the land lines?" Well, there are a couple of reasons for this. One is that
those using the technological gates (decks) are dependent on their technology
to continue to access the metaplane. The second is belief (this one applies
to Otaku, who generally know more about the Matrix). Since people do not see
the Matrix in magical terms, they believe that it the physical connections are
needed. Without the physical connections, their beliefs stopped them from
accessing the Matrix

> I suppose if it works for your game fine, but as I understand the games
> rules, it is totally illogical, improbable and downright impossible.
Actually, as I said in my post, I don't use deckers in my game. Our group
didn't feel like learning the rules, and so all deckers are NPC's. Through
them (normally an autistic young man named Norman), the GM gives them whatever
information he wants them to have, and they help him out (make sure he pays his
rent, gives him a cut of the proceeds, sell any information he gets and give
him a hefty cut). Also, this is just a theory that I came up with when leafing
through the 1st edition book, then again when I read second edition.
Message no. 45
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:13:30 EST
In a message dated 4/3/98 7:56:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

> <snip magical metaplanar Matrix>
>
> Nexx, that has *got* to be one of the *the* most bizarre theories I have
> yet to see on this list.
>
Actually, it's pretty tame. There's a movie from 1983 titled "Brainstorm".
Mike was nice enough to buy it recently and we showed it to the groups "Team
Decker" just now for his 32nd birthday.

Yep, something to consider.
-K
Message no. 46
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:26:33 -0800
----------
> From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
> Date: Friday, April 03, 1998 4:51 PM
>
> At 05:24 PM 4/3/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
> <snip magical metaplanar Matrix>
>
> Nexx, that has *got* to be one of the *the* most bizarre theories I have
> yet to see on this list.
>
> How can technology *create* a metaplane? In theory, I can see technology
> opening a gate to another physical dimension, but that is totally
different
> than creating a magical metaplane.
>

I actually saw similar notions batted around rec.games.frp.cyber a couple
years ago, though it was under the arguments of "How Otaku do what they
do", which resulted in them being essentially shamans gifted by "Spirits of
the Machine", which started a several month discussion as to whether or not
a spirit could have a domain of a computer. =) I think the
Matrix-as-Metaplane theory came up at one point... =T Don't remember
though.

As for how technology can create a Metaplane... it seems that the stuff
Metaplanes is based largely off of how humans perceive the "universe",
especially the shamanic metaplanes. I mean, just look at the metaplanar
experiences of the houngouns (da voodoo guys). Much of what exists and is
possible is largely defined by human paradigms. Though one could argue
that any tech-metaplane would likely be part of the "Metaplane of Man"...
*shrug*.
Message no. 47
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 21:40:02 -0600
> I actually saw similar notions batted around rec.games.frp.cyber a couple
> years ago, though it was under the arguments of "How Otaku do what they
> do", which resulted in them being essentially shamans gifted by "Spirits of
> the Machine", which started a several month discussion as to whether or not
> a spirit could have a domain of a computer. =) I think the
> Matrix-as-Metaplane theory came up at one point... =T Don't remember
> though.

I would just like to state that this is not where I got the idea. Its just
something I developed on my own
Message no. 48
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 11:31:50 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy "Bolthy" Zimmerman <jeremy@***********.COM>
>> Not really. A mage knows what it is like, and if he was also a
drek
>> hot programmer, he could whip up some code that emulates the whole
>> 'feel'. (Not that I actually agree in any way with mages getting a
>> penalty in the matrix).
>>
>
>Okay, this brings up something that I've been wondering... I remember
>reading a while back about UV systems (it's been a while since I
picked up
>VR2.0, so please don't flame too bad if I get things mucked up).
Now, the
>premise behind them is that they are super detailed. Life like. So
you
>slap a mage into one of these: How does he react? In your opinion,
can
>you detect and simulate the neural signature of magic/astral
perception,
>etc, to be able to suppress his interaction with the real world and
>simulate the effects in the UV system?


Well, theoretically you could, but the thing is there would be no way
of shutting of the command to astrally perceive. I don't think it's
a neural thing, as nothing physical happens when a mage projects or
perceives. It's all on the mana/astral. This would mean that the
mage would try and perceive, would succeed and would get all of his
physical senses telling him all about the UV Host, and his astral
sense would be looking out from his physical body on the other side of
the planet.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 49
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:25:28 -0700
Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman wrote:
/
/ Okay, this brings up something that I've been wondering... I remember
/ reading a while back about UV systems (it's been a while since I picked up
/ VR2.0, so please don't flame too bad if I get things mucked up). Now, the
/ premise behind them is that they are super detailed. Life like. So you
/ slap a mage into one of these: How does he react? In your opinion, can
/ you detect and simulate the neural signature of magic/astral perception,
/ etc, to be able to suppress his interaction with the real world and
/ simulate the effects in the UV system?

You mean, could a mage be jacked into a UV system and not know it
because the UV system simulates the casting of spells and astral
perception? I don't think so. I get the impression that astral
perception is a "spiritual" ability. I.e., it's not an ability of
his body, but of his astral self. IMO there'd be no way simsense
could tap into that. So when the mage tries to use his astral
perception, or cast a spell, in the UV host either it wouldn't work,
or he'd end up seeing a double image, the UV world, and the real
astral world around his body.

-David
--
"Belief is a truth held in the mind.
Faith is a fire in the heart."
- Joseph F. Newton
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 50
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 14:49:36 -0800
----------
> From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
> Date: Friday, April 03, 1998 7:40 PM
>
> > I actually saw similar notions batted around rec.games.frp.cyber a
couple
> > years ago, though it was under the arguments of "How Otaku do what they
> > do", which resulted in them being essentially shamans gifted by
"Spirits of
> > the Machine", which started a several month discussion as to whether or
not
> > a spirit could have a domain of a computer. =) I think the
> > Matrix-as-Metaplane theory came up at one point... =T Don't remember
> > though.
>
> I would just like to state that this is not where I got the idea. Its
just
> something I developed on my own

Totally understood... and in fact it was never developped fully to the
extent that you took yours. In fact, I could even be misremembering. =)
Message no. 51
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 12:17:36 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:06 PM 4/3/98 -0800, Jeremy wrote:
>Okay, this brings up something that I've been wondering... I remember
>reading a while back about UV systems (it's been a while since I
picked up
>VR2.0, so please don't flame too bad if I get things mucked up).
Now, the
>premise behind them is that they are super detailed. Life like. So
you
>slap a mage into one of these: How does he react? In your opinion,
can
>you detect and simulate the neural signature of magic/astral
perception,
>etc, to be able to suppress his interaction with the real world and
>simulate the effects in the UV system?

It depends. If I remember correctly, most UV systems are the secret
playgrounds of AIs. Now if you subscribe to the theory that as the
mana curve rises, AIs will manifest themselves as the free spirits of
the matrix metaplane, then I'd say sure, the mage would be able to do
all the things he could do RL.
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--
-- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
625A FFF0 76DC A077 D21C 556B BB58 00AA
Message no. 52
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 06:34:36 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Monday, 6 April 1998 2:18
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
>It depends. If I remember correctly, most UV systems are the secret
>playgrounds of AIs. Now if you subscribe to the theory that as the
>mana curve rises, AIs will manifest themselves as the free spirits of
>the matrix metaplane, then I'd say sure, the mage would be able to do
>all the things he could do RL.


Lets not forget that fact that however real a UV Host might be, it is
still just a Virtual Reality system in the persons head. So how is a
mage in a UV Host able to Perceive or project?

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 53
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mages in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:06:14 -0400
Re: Mages in the Matrix
>Prehaps, it is currently beyond the scope of the expert system code
that drives deck reality filters to be able to recreate madness
convincingly enough to let a mystic feel like he's really casting a
spell. And even if it could, would RAS cutouts supress spellcasting
activity? (visions of a decking mage tossing Attack 5 at some IC, only
to find his meat body's mind thinks it's really casting a fireball
spell.<

I never said that the solution was bomb-proof. The drawbacks pretty much
out-weigh the advantages

Rob...

Further Reading

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