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Message no. 1
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Magical Edges
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:50:22 -0500
[lots of stuff snipped about how Magical Edges, and the SR Companion in
general, are unbalanced, unplayable, etc. etc.]

Since I wrote 90% of the Edges and Flaws section of the Companion, I will
point out a few things worth mentioning. These are IMHO and not official FASA
cannon or errata. Take them and use them as you will:

My conception of Magical Edges was that they were an extension of the magical
Priority options. In other words, you get ONE choice for your magical ability
during character creation and it is fixed for the life of the character. The
options are:

A) Magician (of any tradition): Priority A/B or 20 Build Points
B) Adept (of any tradition): Prioirty B/C or 15 Build Points
C) ONE Magical Talent Edge: cost varies
D) Mundane: Priority D-E or 0 Build Points

Thus the Magical Edges are "sub-adepts" and cannot be combined with other
choices. Thus, if you choose to be a physical adept, you can't go and buy the
Astral Sight Edge which, as has been rightly pointed out, is far more
efficient than blowing 2 Magic Points to buy the Astral Perception POWER. The
same is true if you're a Conjuring Adept; you can't buy the Spellcasting Edge
or the Astral Sight Edge or, indeed, ANY Magical Edges whatsoever.

The same is true of the character-building options under the Build Point
system. You can't buy both "Adept: Conjuring" and "Adept: Physical"
for a
total of 30 Build Points any more than you can pay 20 BPs and buy "Metahuman:
Troll" and "Metahuman: Elf" and combine the advantages. The point system
breaks down pretty quickly if this is allowed.

I totally agree that this fact should have been explicity state in the
Companion and it's mea culpa for not doing so. Honestly, the thought that
people would combine the choices from the Build Point table never occoured to
me and the stuff with the Magical Edges was just a goof; it should have said
(IMHO) that the Edges can't be combined with other magical abilities or at
least it should have carried a warning label of some kind.

If there is an errata or another edition of the Companion or the like in the
future I will try and see that it is corrected (as much as a freelancer can
do so) but it's really up to Mike Mulvihill to make that call.

Steve K.
Underworld Sourcebook, coming soon (with no new magical edges!)
Message no. 2
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magical Edges
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 16:07:31 -0500
Steve Kenson wrote
>My conception of Magical Edges was that they were an extension of the magical
>Priority options. In other words, you get ONE choice for your magical ability
>during character creation and it is fixed for the life of the character. The options
>are:
>
>A) Magician (of any tradition): Priority A/B or 20 Build Points
>B) Adept (of any tradition): Prioirty B/C or 15 Build Points
>C) ONE Magical Talent Edge: cost varies
>D) Mundane: Priority D-E or 0 Build Points

I like this idea, but it suprises me to hear you say it because the text in the
companion points to the directly opossite conclusion:

"Magical Talent
Value: Variable
Only magically active characters with active Magic Ratings of 1 or higher can
purchase any of the Magical Talent Edges listed on the table above. A character
whose Magic Rating drops below 1 automatically loses all Magical Talent Edges."

In other words, Magical Talent Edges are ONLY for magicians, not
non-magicians.

How did this mix-up happen?

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 3
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical Edges
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 20:14:11 -0500
>My conception of Magical Edges was that they were an extension of the magical
>Priority options. In other words, you get ONE choice for your magical ability
>during character creation and it is fixed for the life of the character. The
>options are:

<snip costs>

>Thus the Magical Edges are "sub-adepts" and cannot be combined with other
>choices. Thus, if you choose to be a physical adept, you can't go and buy the
>Astral Sight Edge which, as has been rightly pointed out, is far more
>efficient than blowing 2 Magic Points to buy the Astral Perception POWER. The
>same is true if you're a Conjuring Adept; you can't buy the Spellcasting Edge
>or the Astral Sight Edge or, indeed, ANY Magical Edges whatsoever.

Interesting. That is certainly different from the book, which, IIRC, says
that you HAVE to have a magic attribute to buy any of the magical edges
except Poor link or Bad Karma.

This leads me to two other questions (since I have you :) )
(I know you can't speak as FASA, but you're closer to it than I am)
(FASAMike, when/if you read this, could you give his answers the yea/nay?)
1) What is the Magical Edge cost of the Spirit Watchers introduced in the
Germany Sourcebook?
2) Does the Innate Spell power Require you to have sorcery?

I like this clarification a lot....because the book said it REQUIRED a Magic
Attribute, this never occured to me.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 4
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Magical Edges
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 10:12:53 +1100
> Thus the Magical Edges are "sub-adepts" and cannot be combined with other
> choices. Thus, if you choose to be a physical adept, you can't go and buy the
> Astral Sight Edge which, as has been rightly pointed out, is far more
> efficient than blowing 2 Magic Points to buy the Astral Perception POWER. The
> same is true if you're a Conjuring Adept; you can't buy the Spellcasting Edge
> or the Astral Sight Edge or, indeed, ANY Magical Edges whatsoever.

Hang about - I thought it was explicitly stated that you couldn't buy
magical edges unless you were magical already?

In which case you can either:

A) Buy a magical Edge which is not otherwise allowed to your character
(eg a Sorcery Adept with Astral Sight, or a PhysAd with the ability to
summon air elementals) - but this conflicts with what you say is
permitted

OR

B) Buy a Magical Edge which you already get with the character type (eg
buying Astral Sight if you're a full mage), thereby wasting points.

You say that they're "sub-adepts" if they have a magic edge:

ie. Characters who are already magical can't buy the edges. IIRC,
however, the book says that you can't buy the edges *unless* you have a
magic attribute ie are already magical.

Help!

Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
-----------------------------------------------
Remember, no matter what they say, you can
never have enough sugar. - Michael
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical Edges
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 21:15:18 -0500
>ie. Characters who are already magical can't buy the edges. IIRC,
>however, the book says that you can't buy the edges *unless* you have a
>magic attribute ie are already magical.

I'm guessing Steve will say it's an editing twist, and that what was meant
is that a character with an Edge Gets a Magic Attribute, and when it's gone,
so is his edge, much like the explanation in Germany Sourcebook regarding
Spirit Watchers.

Steve?

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 6
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Magical Edges
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 21:48:03 +0000
> My conception of Magical Edges was that they were an extension of the magical
> Priority options. In other words, you get ONE choice for your magical ability
> during character creation and it is fixed for the life of the character. The
> options are:
>
> A) Magician (of any tradition): Priority A/B or 20 Build Points
> B) Adept (of any tradition): Prioirty B/C or 15 Build Points
> C) ONE Magical Talent Edge: cost varies
> D) Mundane: Priority D-E or 0 Build Points
>
In Magical Talent Edges.. I seem to remember it saying the force or
whatever was equal to your magic rating.. as far as I know unless you
put prioritys towards being a mage you don't have a magic rating.. in
which case you can't have a magical talent.. in which case you need
to be either A) or B)

Am I wrong?
Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
HTTP://www.datanet.ab.ca/users/hardware
Message no. 7
From: Steve Kenson <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magical Edges
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 09:30:28 -0500
>Steve Kenson wrote
>>My conception of Magical Edges was that they were an extension of the
magical
>>Priority options. In other words, you get ONE choice for your magical
ability
>>during character creation and it is fixed for the life of the character.
The options
>>are:
>>
>>A) Magician (of any tradition): Priority A/B or 20 Build Points
>>B) Adept (of any tradition): Prioirty B/C or 15 Build Points
>>C) ONE Magical Talent Edge: cost varies
>>D) Mundane: Priority D-E or 0 Build Points

Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM> wrote:
>I like this idea, but it suprises me to hear you say it because the text in
the
>companion points to the directly opossite conclusion:
>
>"Magical Talent
>Value: Variable
> Only magically active characters with active Magic Ratings of 1 or
higher can
>purchase any of the Magical Talent Edges listed on the table above. A
character
>whose Magic Rating drops below 1 automatically loses all Magical Talent
Edges."
>
>In other words, Magical Talent Edges are ONLY for magicians, not
>non-magicians.

Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> wrote:
>Interesting. That is certainly different from the book, which, IIRC, says
>that you HAVE to have a magic attribute to buy any of the magical edges
>except Poor link or Bad Karma.
>
>I'm guessing Steve will say it's an editing twist, and that what was meant
>is that a character with an Edge Gets a Magic Attribute, and when it's gone,
>so is his edge, much like the explanation in Germany Sourcebook regarding
>Spirit Watchers.

<homer> D'OH!!! </homer>

Guess that'll teach me to read what is actually written in the book instead
of consulting my faulty memory before answering these questions. The simply
answer is that my INTENT when I wrote the magical edges was as I stated in my
previous post: you get ONE choice of magical ability at character creation:
magician, adept, magical edge or mundane and that's IT. However, I did not
convey this intent clearly enough in my draft to FASA.

Faced with the herculean task of coordinating more authors than a SR book has
ever had, FASA development and editorial did their best to clean-up and
integrate our disperate work while trying to make sense out of the prose.
Thus, in what I imagine was an effort to preseve game balance and bring
clarity, the description of the magical edges had the line added that
required you to be magically active in order to get them, the OPPOSITE of my
original intent. In truth, I had it the other way around: if you were already
magical all you could take was Poor Link or Bad Karma for magical
edges/flaws.

So taking a magical edge makes you a "sub-adept" or "wild talent" as
they are
known in my SR games. You GET a Magic Attribute (ie. become magically active)
if you take a magical edge and if your Magic ever drops below 1, you
permanently lose the edge and become a mundane, just like other magically
active folks.

additionally, Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> wrote:
>This leads me to two other questions (since I have you :) )
>(I know you can't speak as FASA, but you're closer to it than I am)
>(FASAMike, when/if you read this, could you give his answers the yea/nay?)
>1) What is the Magical Edge cost of the Spirit Watchers introduced in the
>Germany Sourcebook?
>2) Does the Innate Spell power Require you to have sorcery?

IMHO, the Spirit Watchers from the GERMANY Sourcebook simply have the Astral
Sight edge for the regular 3 points. I dropped the requirement to spend Karma
in my campaign, but kept the limitation that they needed to keep their
original (fleshy) physical eyes to retain their power. YMMV.

As I run it, characters with an Innate Spell start out with a Force in the
spell equal to their starting Magic -1 (usually 5). The Force can be
increased by all of the normal things that improve spell Force like fetishes,
foci, etc. (NOT the exclusive spell modifier) and it can be bought up using
Karma. They can throw the spell with no training whatsoever, using just the
base Force for the Force Success Test. If they learn Sorcery, they gain a
Magic Pool they can use ONLY to add dice to the Test for casting their innate
spell and resisting it's Drain. That's it. If they learn Sorcery, they also
gain the ability to cast their innate spell through Ritual Sorcery if it's
eligable (i.e., no ritual combat spells). Again, IMHO and YMMV.

Steve
Message no. 8
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Magical Edges
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:09:48 +0500
Since this thread popped up again, I thought I would repost Steve
Kenson's comments regarding Magical Edges. Hope he doesn't mind. :)
It really clarifies his intentions with the new Companion rules.

--
> [lots of stuff snipped about how Magical Edges, and the SR Companion
> in general, are unbalanced, unplayable, etc. etc.]
>
> Since I wrote 90% of the Edges and Flaws section of the Companion, I
> will point out a few things worth mentioning. These are IMHO and not
> official FASA cannon or errata. Take them and use them as you will:
>
> My conception of Magical Edges was that they were an extension of
> the magical Priority options. In other words, you get ONE choice for
> your magical ability during character creation and it is fixed for
> the life of the character. The options are:
>
> A) Magician (of any tradition): Priority A/B or 20 Build Points B)
> Adept (of any tradition): Prioirty B/C or 15 Build Points C) ONE
> Magical Talent Edge: cost varies D) Mundane: Priority D-E or 0 Build
> Points
>
> Thus the Magical Edges are "sub-adepts" and cannot be combined with
> other choices. Thus, if you choose to be a physical adept, you can't
> go and buy the Astral Sight Edge which, as has been rightly pointed
> out, is far more efficient than blowing 2 Magic Points to buy the
> Astral Perception POWER. The same is true if you're a Conjuring
> Adept; you can't buy the Spellcasting Edge or the Astral Sight Edge
> or, indeed, ANY Magical Edges whatsoever.
>
> The same is true of the character-building options under the Build
> Point system. You can't buy both "Adept: Conjuring" and "Adept:
> Physical" for a total of 30 Build Points any more than you can pay
> 20 BPs and buy "Metahuman: Troll" and "Metahuman: Elf" and
combine
> the advantages. The point system breaks down pretty quickly if this
> is allowed.
>
> I totally agree that this fact should have been explicity state in
> the Companion and it's mea culpa for not doing so. Honestly, the
> thought that people would combine the choices from the Build Point
> table never occoured to me and the stuff with the Magical Edges was
> just a goof; it should have said (IMHO) that the Edges can't be
> combined with other magical abilities or at least it should have
> carried a warning label of some kind.
>
> If there is an errata or another edition of the Companion or the
> like in the future I will try and see that it is corrected (as much
> as a freelancer can do so) but it's really up to Mike Mulvihill to
> make that call.
>
> Steve K.

There ya' go!

--
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
# DREKHEAD - drekhead@***.net, drekhead@***.com - Tim Kerby #
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
# --- http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html --- #
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
C:\DOS C:\DOS\RUN RUN\DOS\RUN
Message no. 9
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical Edges
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:50:07 -0400
At 09:09 PM 5/14/97 +0500, you wrote:
>Since this thread popped up again, I thought I would repost Steve
>Kenson's comments regarding Magical Edges. Hope he doesn't mind. :)
>It really clarifies his intentions with the new Companion rules.
>
snip the repost, no combining edges/magical priorities.

Okay, if that is what was meant, then it makes sense. Of course, that isn't
what the book actually says...

As for combining adept abilities and the edges, I don't think it unbalances
things too much, and as for the 3 pt. edge astral sight vs. the 2 magic
point power of astral perception, I've always felt that astral perception
was over-expensive and way too important not to have. But that's just IMO.

--DT

--DT
Message no. 10
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magical Edges
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:10:31 -0700
---Drekhead wrote:
>
> Since this thread popped up again, I thought I would repost Steve
> Kenson's comments regarding Magical Edges. Hope he doesn't mind. :)
> It really clarifies his intentions with the new Companion rules.

Here's also a cut and paste from a document I have on my page. I took
it from another like-minded post Steve had on here. Hopefully it helps
further explain things as well.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!

Magicians, Adepts and the Build Point System
Taken from a ShadowRN post by Steve Kenson
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MAGICAL ABILITY BREAKDOWN
These are the options for magical ability that I use with the
Build-Point System presented in the Shadowrun Companion. People will
recognize some of these levels of ability as Magical Edges from the
Edges & Flaws section and it might help to clarify how those Edges &
Flaws were intended (by me, at least) to work.

GENERAL RULES
All characters with any kind of magical ability (i.e., anyone who has
spent more than 0 Build Points on magical ability) have a Magic
Attribute, which begins at 6. These characters are collectively known
as "Talented" or "Gifted." ("Magician" is used in my
campaigns as a
generic term for Talented characters with the highest level of magical
ability.) All Talented characters are subject to the rules governing
the Magic Attribute, including loss due to Essence Loss and Deadly
Wounds. Such characters are also all subject to the geasa rules due to
Magic loss.

All Talented characters must follow a tradition (although they may not
always KNOWINGLY do so). The tradition is chosen at character creation
and may not be changed.

MAGICIAN (20 points)
This level gives the character access to full use all of the magical
skills and abilities of his chosen tradition. Generally this will be
either Hermetic (mage) or Shamanic (shaman), but there are other
traditions available to offer slightly different abilities, such as
Nature Magic, Voudoun and so forth.

ADEPT (15 points)
At this level, the character has access to ONE significant area of
magical ability from his chosen tradition. This could be full use of a
single magical skill or partial use of all skills and abilities.
Adepts can bond or use foci that are applicable to their magical
skills and abilities. The character can choose ONE of the following
options:

Conjuring Adept: The character can make full use of the Conjuring
skill, but is considered mundane for other magical skills or
abilities, this includes applications of Conjuring that require Astral
Perception or Projection (including metamagic). The character can bond
or use foci that are applicable to the Conjuring skill.

Elemental Adept: This option is only open to mages. The character is
"aligned" with one of the four hermetic elements: Earth, Air, Fire or
Water. The character can use the Sorcery skill to cast spells aligned
to that element and Conjuring to summon spirits aligned with that
element as well as watchers. The adept can astrally perceive and
project. For all other uses of magical skill, the adept is considered
a mundane.

Physical Adept: The adept "grounds" all of his magical ability into
his body. He may "buy" physical adept powers using his Magic Rating,
but is considered a mundane for the use of all magical skills.
Physical adepts cannot astral perceive unless they purchase the power
that allows them to do so.

Shamanic Adept: This option is only open to shamans. The adept can use
Sorcery to cast spells for which their totem grants a bonus and
Conjuring to summon spirits for which the totem grants a bonus. The
adept can also astrally perceive and project. For all other uses of
magical skill, the adept is considered a mundane. Shamanic adepts are
only available for those totems which provide bonuses based on Spell
Category of Spirit Type, not totems that have bonsuses based on things
such as time of day (such as Owl) or no bonuses (such as Coyote).

Sorcery Adept: The character can make full use of the Sorcery skill,
but is considered mundane for other magical skills or abilities, this
includes applications of Sorcery that require Astral Perception
(including metamagic).

MINOR ADEPT (Cost varies)
At this level, the character has PARTIAL access to the use of a
magical skill or ability or full use of a fairly limited skill or
ability. Minor adepts can bond and use foci that affect their areas of
skill and ability.

Astral Adept (5 points): The character can make use of astral
perception and projection, but is considered a mundane for the use of
all magical skills.

Banishing Adept (5 points): The adept can use the Conjuring skill to
attempt to banish any type of spirit. For all other uses of magical
skill and ability, the adept is considered a mundane. He cannot
control spirits, only banish them. The adept does gain a totem bonus,
if shamanic, for banishing the appropriate kind of spirit.

Enchanting Adept (5 points): The adept can make full use of the
Enchanting skill. For all other magical skills and abilities, the
adept is considered a mundane.

Astral Sight Adept (3 points): The adept can use astral perception,
but not astral projection. For the use of magical skills, the adept is
considered a mundane. Note this still means that the adept can learn
the specialization of Sorcery for astral combat, since even mundanes
can do so (see Awakenings).

Spell Adept (varies): The adept can use the Sorcery skill to cast a
single spell. If the spell is eligible to be cast using Ritual
Sorcery, the adept can do this as well. The adept can also provide
Spell Defense against the spell he can cast, but not from any others.
For all other magical skills and abilities, including other uses of
the Sorcery skill, the adept is considered a mundane. He cannot learn
or use any other spells. The cost is based on the type of spell known:
Combat (4 points), Detection (2 points), Health (3 points), Illusion
(3 points) or Manipulation (4 points). The gamemaster may adjust the
cost if the spell is considered especially flexible or weak. The spell
is automatically known at a Force equal to the adept's starting Magic
Rating and can be increased normally by spending Karma.

Spirit Adept (varies): The adept can use the Conjuring skill to summon
a single type of spirit: a specific elemental or nature spirit or a
watcher spirit. The adept follows the normal rules for conjuring the
spirit, but cannot have more than one spirit summoned or bound at a
time. The adept may also attempt to banish or control spirits of the
type he can summon. For all other magical skills and abilities,
including other uses of the Conjuring skill, the adept is considered a
mundane. The cost is based on the type of spirit the adept can summon:
elemental or nature spirit (5 points), or watcher (3 points).

Negamagic Adept (5 points): The adept can use the Sorcery skill to
provide Spell Defense. The number of dice that the adept may allocate
to spell defense is limited to no more than the adept's Magic
Attribute. The adept does not gain the use of Shielding or any other
metamagical abilities on Initiation, only increased Magic and the
ability to allocate more dice to spell defense per turn that comes
with it. For all other magical skills and abilities, including other
uses of the Sorcery skill, the adept is considered a mundane.

NOTES
Gamemasters may have to keep an eye on minor adepts to keep them from
becoming a problem, given their low point cost. Generally speaking,
the Magic Attribute limitation keeps most character concepts from
abusing the option; it's not worth it for a heavily cybered character
to spend 5 points for Negamagic or Banishing ability if his Magic
Attribute is going to be too low to make much use of it.

Minor adepts (like all of the Talented) have to carefully balance the
benefits of cyberware and implants with maintaining their minor
magical ability. Many of them decide it's not worth it to maintain a
magical lifestyle and go the full cyber-route, burning out and
becoming mundanes. In fact, some cyber characters might have had a
minor adept ability once and just never knew about it before they had
stuffed themselves so full of metal and cultured tissue that their
Power went "poof."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Kenson's writing for FASA includes Awakenings and Shadowrun
Companion
_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 11
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Magical edges
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:47:45 PDT
>> Also, the "magic talent" description int the text (bottom p 33,
not
>> the table, right before "miscellanious edges and flaws") says "A
>> character whose Magic Rating dropsbelow one automatically looses all
>> Magical Talent Edges." If you have no magical talent, you can't get
>> magical talent edge.
>
>That's rather silly. So only Adepts, who have magic, and Magicians, who
have
>magic, can get get magical edges, which gives them magic. Kind
redundant,
>don't you think? What the heck are those things in there for, anyway?
>
>Spider Murphy
>

I can think of some good uses:

Physical adept with 6 MP worth of abilities AND Astral Perception, or
said ability for any conjouring or sorcery adept.

Any adept who can't cast spells (or a catagory of spells) can get a
spell. Works great for PA's for special offensive abilities, or they
can use ritual sorceryand magic poll to sustain for a "meditative" boost
to thier abilities.

A shaman who CAN conjour an elemental. Aid sorcey + totem bonus could
get rude... or a mage who can conjour a type of spirit. Or a normally
non-conjouring adept with a very high specialization in conjouring one
spirit type...


You probably get the picture. Some of the above might look
expensive BP wise compared to stepping up to full mage status,
ofphysical mage status. Under the priority system tough, its a
different story. Also, a physad with a single spell or conjouring edge
has less to worry about (and learn) than a physical mage.
The edges are not supposedto "give them magic". They give magic
characters new / more ways to use magic they have. Heck, "Spell Casting
Talent" can give high force spells for CHEAP, if your already raising
magic rating somehow.
The one "talent edge" that makes no sense to restrict as such is
"Poor Link". I can see a mundane much more easily being a poorlink-
especially one who is "magic resistant".

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psycotic - Einstien

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


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Further Reading

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