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Message no. 1
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Magical Reaction
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 14:14:54 -0500
I believe that it is generally agreed that wired reflexes make someone
alot jumpier and alot more likely to react before they think, but what
about magical reaction and initiative, ie from phy adept abilities or
magical spells. Would a mage that had +3D6 initiative quickened onto
himself react similiarly to a person how had wired 2 or 3 or are they
different. I was wondering for roleplaying purposes..
Message no. 2
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Magical Reaction
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 14:41:27 +0000
On 1 Apr 97 at 14:14, Midn Daniel O Fredrikson wrote:

> I believe that it is generally agreed that wired reflexes make
> someone alot jumpier and alot more likely to react before they
> think, but what about magical reaction and initiative, ie from phy
> adept abilities or magical spells. Would a mage that had +3D6
> initiative quickened onto himself react similiarly to a person how
> had wired 2 or 3 or are they different. I was wondering for
> roleplaying purposes..

I know novels are not canon, but they seem to suggest that magical
speed is smooth and more natural than cybered speed. I remember a
particular comment about a Phys-Ad in Dead Air, if I recall
correctly. Maybe Jak can comment on this.



====DREKHEAD==============================================================
Tim Kerby | Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone,
drekhead@***.net |somewhere, is just starting his and the target
drekhead@***.com | could be you.
drekhead@*******.com | ---http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html---
=========================================================================
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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GB d-(+) s: a C++(+++)>++++$ U--- P L+ E? W++>$ N o? K-? w+()>--- O++>$ M--
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 3
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical Reaction
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 15:48:45 -0500
Midn Daniel O Fredrikson wrote:

> I believe that it is generally agreed that wired reflexes make someone
> alot jumpier and alot more likely to react before they think, but what
> about magical reaction and initiative, ie from phy adept abilities or
> magical spells. Would a mage that had +3D6 initiative quickened onto
> himself react similiarly to a person how had wired 2 or 3 or are they
> different. I was wondering for roleplaying purposes..

My take on this would be no, they do not act similarly. I believe that
magic integrates itself into one's aura more smoothly than cyberware or
bioware would. I would treat magically enhanced reflexes/reaction as if
it were smooth and natural, as compared to the jumpiness and jerkiness
of wired reflexes.

Just my opinion. :)

Justin :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 4
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Magical Reaction
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 00:20:21 +0100
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.970401141127.9148A-100000@*****>, Midn Daniel
O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL> writes
>I believe that it is generally agreed that wired reflexes make someone
>alot jumpier and alot more likely to react before they think, but what
>about magical reaction and initiative, ie from phy adept abilities or
>magical spells. Would a mage that had +3D6 initiative quickened onto
>himself react similiarly to a person how had wired 2 or 3 or are they
>different. I was wondering for roleplaying purposes..

I don't use a great deal of magic in my games, keeping the games lower
powered and more "cyber" However, my personal judgement on this is that
the spell has the same effect as the cyberware. The mage/phys ad is
jkust as jumpy and twitchy as the Sam, of course with access to a
certain rare piece of 'ware, the Sam can turn it off.

It enhances their reaction time, which means they "react" quicker to
stimulus, that stimulus is the same trigger that teh Sammie gets jumpy
about, in fact for a Mage it may be worse, as they are not intrinsically
combat oriented, a Phys ad shouldn't suffer any more than the Samurai,
and as a result of his/her discipline and training, maybe slightly less.

Just my opinion, ignore at will. :)

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Message no. 5
From: Jak Koke <jkoke@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical Reaction
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 12:09:39 -0800
>I know novels are not canon, but they seem to suggest that magical
>speed is smooth and more natural than cybered speed. I remember a
>particular comment about a Phys-Ad in Dead Air, if I recall
>correctly. Maybe Jak can comment on this.

I don't remember exactly, but it seems likely that physical adepts would be
smoother than wired samurais. Physads revere their body and their magic
comes through their unmarred physical presence. They are more "in tune" (to
use a cliche) with their bodies and IMO would be more likely to incorporate
magic acceleration as something normal. This would likely not be true for
mages who temporarily increase their own speed. The mage could easily become
nervous and shaky. The mindset of a mage and a physad is vastly different,
the physads magic is almost always on, at least in terms of increase
reaction, and attributes. The mage's is turned on and off through the
casting of spells and such.

Cybered characters have shown some disregard for the sancitity of their
bodies by the simple act (or not so simple) of installing chrome. Perhaps
this means their increased reaction makes them constantly on edge--jittery.
I believe that samurai's will eventually get used to this (though maybe
those around him or her will not), and I also believe that the best cyber
(deltaware) will have a less pronounced affect. A noteable exception to
this is the "move-by-wire" system in Cybertechnology; it specifically states
that this gives the recipient extremely smooth and fluid motion. The system
puts your body in a perpetual state of seizure, but controls the seizure. I
believe this would burn someone's nervous system out if used a lot.

Just my thougts,

--Jak

Jak Koke | "Though I am not naturally honest,
jkoke@****.edu | I am so sometimes by chance."
La Jolla, CA | --Shakespeare (The Winter's Tale)
Message no. 6
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: Magical Reaction
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 13:23:00 MST
>I don't use a great deal of magic in my games, keeping the games lower
>powered and more "cyber" However, my personal judgement on this is that
>the spell has the same effect as the cyberware. The mage/phys ad is
>jkust as jumpy and twitchy as the Sam, of course with access to a
>certain rare piece of 'ware, the Sam can turn it off.
>
>It enhances their reaction time, which means they "react" quicker to
>stimulus, that stimulus is the same trigger that teh Sammie gets jumpy
>about, in fact for a Mage it may be worse, as they are not intrinsically
>combat oriented, a Phys ad shouldn't suffer any more than the Samurai,
>and as a result of his/her discipline and training, maybe slightly less.
>

I agree, magical reflexes are still a little out of control - causing you to
react before thinking. You would need to take the same precautions as a
street sam - back to the wall, warn your chummers not to walk up behind you
and slap you on the back, maybe even keep the safety on on your piece.

But, I don't think the other side effects, like the trembles or whatever,
would be a problem because the magic works just fine with your body. Like
the "street sam" in Johnny Mnemonic, who had problems with the trembles, and
I think with her nervous system - had siezures or something. That wouldn't
be a problem with magic.

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 7
From: Angel Ramos y David Fayes <hansa@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Magical Reaction
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 04:20:53 -0500
At 03:48 PM 04/1/97 -0500, Justin wrote:
>(SNIP)

>My take on this would be no, they do not act similarly. I believe that
>magic integrates itself into one's aura more smoothly than cyberware or
>bioware would. I would treat magically enhanced reflexes/reaction as if
>it were smooth and natural, as compared to the jumpiness and jerkiness
>of wired reflexes.

I agree with Justin in the way that magically enhanced rea/ref woulb be more natural
because I see it (the spell) to attune the aura (then the physical body) and improving
these attributes.

ARRT
The elven Mage
Message no. 8
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Magical Reaction
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 01:39:22 +0100
In message <2.2.32.19970402200939.00694370@*******.ucsd.edu>, Jak Koke
<jkoke@****.EDU> writes
>
>Cybered characters have shown some disregard for the sancitity of their
>bodies by the simple act (or not so simple) of installing chrome.

I disagree.

If I've chosen to run the shadows, I'd prefer not to have my body
damaged by high-velocity hollowpointed lead projectiles :) Hence, I
protect it by getting its nervous system enhanced.

I _love_ my body, since I have to live in it, and I'm doing what seems
most likely to keep it from getting so badly damaged that it leaks to
death. If that means faster nerves and sharper senses, so be it. I'm
helping my body realise its true potential, not violating it.

This is what bugs me about the cyberpsychosis argument. I accept
completely the Cybertechnology "wired reflexes are a mixed blessing"
argument - read Timothy Zahn's "Cobra" for an excellent view on
cyberware and the reaction of society to it, plus ISTR a similar Star
Trek-TNG episode on that theme.

But it need not be a disregard for one's body. Why is a samurai
installing wired reflexes different to a bodybuilder eating a programmed
diet, taking steroids and following a brutal regime of exercise? Both
are manipulating their bodies into desired form, be it superfast combat
machine or a toned and precise mass of muscle: neither are "in touch
with their natural essence".

>Perhaps
>this means their increased reaction makes them constantly on edge--jittery.
>I believe that samurai's will eventually get used to this (though maybe
>those around him or her will not), and I also believe that the best cyber
>(deltaware) will have a less pronounced affect. A noteable exception to
>this is the "move-by-wire" system in Cybertechnology; it specifically states
>that this gives the recipient extremely smooth and fluid motion. The system
>puts your body in a perpetual state of seizure, but controls the seizure. I
>believe this would burn someone's nervous system out if used a lot.

I used that as a game balance mechanism for over-used Increase Reaction
+3 and Combat Sense in SR1: they tended to respectively induce paranoia
and cause nervous system disorders (since IR3 was a massive boost to the
nerves, overloading them sometimes, and CS was a limited precognition
and telepathy: imagine every irritable shop assistant's "what a
dickhead!" registering as a threat of imminent death).

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 9
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Magical Reaction
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 02:35:53 +0100
In article <9704022026.AA27952@***.az05.bull.com>, Denzil Kruse
<dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM> writes
>>It enhances their reaction time, which means they "react" quicker to
>>stimulus, that stimulus is the same trigger that teh Sammie gets jumpy
>>about, in fact for a Mage it may be worse, as they are not intrinsically
>>combat oriented, a Phys ad shouldn't suffer any more than the Samurai,
>>and as a result of his/her discipline and training, maybe slightly less.
>>
>
>I agree, magical reflexes are still a little out of control - causing you to
>react before thinking. You would need to take the same precautions as a
>street sam - back to the wall, warn your chummers not to walk up behind you
>and slap you on the back, maybe even keep the safety on on your piece.

Not such a bad piece of advice anyway, wires or not. :)

>But, I don't think the other side effects, like the trembles or whatever,
>would be a problem because the magic works just fine with your body. Like
>the "street sam" in Johnny Mnemonic, who had problems with the trembles, and
>I think with her nervous system - had siezures or something. That wouldn't
>be a problem with magic.

Agreed. Nervous reaction to an overload on the stimulus would not be so
severe, the Mage only uses the spell occassionally so wouldn't suffer
like the Samurai, though they would be affected more by it's use, in as
much as their reaction would be more severe and less controllable, also,
the spell integrates with their aura, rather than invading it, so no
penalties for long term use, like seizures etc.

The PhysAd uses physical discipline and other such things to achieve
their art, so also probably wouldn't suffer from this nervous
exhaustion, it's possible that their training and discipline may even
allow them to control the violence of their reaction to stimulus, which
is why I suggested they may be better off than the Sam.

The Sammie doesn't have that option, unless that wonderful piece of
cyberware is installed that let's him/her turn the wires off, the poor
schmuck is on go-faster all the time, definately nerve wracking.

Unless of course, the mage/phys-ad chose to lock the ability and have it
permanently engaged. <grin> Then it's "fun-time" for he GM.


--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Message no. 10
From: Shaun Sides <arch@****.ABTS.NET>
Subject: Re: Magical Reaction
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 11:10:16 -0500
Date: 1 Apr 97 Time: 14:41
Subject: Re: Magical Reaction

TO: Drekhead

> I know novels are not canon, but they seem to suggest that magical
> speed is smooth and more natural than cybered speed. I remember a
> particular comment about a Phys-Ad in Dead Air, if I recall
> correctly. Maybe Jak can comment on this.

I haven't read very many of the SR novels. The first two of the
Secrets of Power (don't remember ever getting the third) and Lone
Wolf (which I thought was much better). That aside, though, I've
always considered that either will provide about the same result, and
that the longer a character has either one, the more efficiently
he'll be able to use it. It's my opinion that a character with
always-on wires would be able to achieve greater control over his
ability, sheerly due to his having no choice but to deal with all
day-to-day situations with them. I realize the theoretical problems
that might be associated with a technology that does what wires do,
but I've never found it to be all that hard to suspend my disbelief
on that one point. :)

a chaoidh teabadaich,

Shaun Sides
arch@****.net
http://www.abts.net/~arch

Morgan:
I heard you have balls big enough to come in a dumptruck, but
you don't look like much to me

Dalton:
Opinions vary
-- from Roadhouse
Message no. 11
From: Grendel <grendel@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Magical Reaction
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:15:33 -0400
Shaun Sides wrote:
>It's my opinion that a character with
>always-on wires would be able to achieve greater control over his
>ability, sheerly due to his having no choice but to deal with all
>day-to-day situations with them. I realize the theoretical problems
>that might be associated with a technology that does what wires do,
>but I've never found it to be all that hard to suspend my disbelief
>on that one point. :)
>
Just a thought that occured to me. Somebody with wired reflexes wouldn't be
as addicted to his cyber as someone on medication? Living faster than
anybody would surely affect the brain, as cocaine do, it mess with the
neurotransmitters. Being fast all the time induce false messages to the
brain who produce much more of these neurotransmitters, so when he's not on
wires, it seem kinda like slow. Maybe there's a depression syndrome that
come out of this. Or when like junkies are in need of drugs and they don't
find it fast enough. Any comments on this?

____________________________________________________________________________
________
Grendel Khan

Sam:"So where'd you park the car, Max?"
Max:"I don't know. I couldn't see over the wheel."
Sam:"That's okay. I think I can smell it."
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Message no. 12
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Magical Reaction
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:05:11 +1000
> Just a thought that occured to me. Somebody with wired reflexes wouldn't be
> as addicted to his cyber as someone on medication? Living faster than
> anybody would surely affect the brain, as cocaine do, it mess with the
> neurotransmitters. Being fast all the time induce false messages to the
> brain who produce much more of these neurotransmitters, so when he's not on
> wires, it seem kinda like slow. Maybe there's a depression syndrome that
> come out of this. Or when like junkies are in need of drugs and they don't
> find it fast enough. Any comments on this?
>
I bit like the much-touted adrenaline junkie syndrome.

I'd guess that if that holds, a person with wires would go looking for
situations where he's going to need to use them. So, for a street sam
it's going to be _very_ hard to leave the biz behind.

A bit like the 'decompression syndrome' mentioned in one or two of the
sourcebooks.

If depression is a result of not using wires, then aggression would
(often) stem from that, and people with wires would be more pushy and
prone to start fights; Gunslinger mentality.

Of course, this only happens when you turn the wires off..... That
requires a relfex trigger, out of cybertechnology. Without one of those,
you live your life constantly like an old 33 vinyl stuck on 45.

Bleach
Message no. 13
From: TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject: Re: Magical Reaction
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 02:49:52 -0500
> If depression is a result of not using wires, then aggression would
> (often) stem from that, and people with wires would be more pushy and
> prone to start fights; Gunslinger mentality.

> Of course, this only happens when you turn the wires off..... That
> requires a relfex trigger, out of cybertechnology. Without one of those,
> you live your life constantly like an old 33 vinyl stuck on 45.

OK, I haven't really seen anything from Cybertechnology, but why is it
that you haven't been able to turn off the wires before it came out? I know the
short stories in the beginning of the books aren't "gospel", but I remember
Nameless from the story in SR2 mentioned not turning his wired reflexes on in
that story. And the book was published before Cybertech came out. Is this just
a slip up on the part of the writer or what? I always thought it was a natural
part of the wires to be able to turn them off. Anybody ever notice this?

-The Immortal Mental
Message no. 14
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Magical Reaction
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 20:43:11 +1000
> > If depression is a result of not using wires, then aggression would
> > (often) stem from that, and people with wires would be more pushy and
> > prone to start fights; Gunslinger mentality.
>
> > Of course, this only happens when you turn the wires off..... That
> > requires a relfex trigger, out of cybertechnology. Without one of those,
> > you live your life constantly like an old 33 vinyl stuck on 45.
>
> OK, I haven't really seen anything from Cybertechnology, but why is it
> that you haven't been able to turn off the wires before it came out? I know the
> short stories in the beginning of the books aren't "gospel", but I remember
> Nameless from the story in SR2 mentioned not turning his wired reflexes on in
> that story. And the book was published before Cybertech came out. Is this just
> a slip up on the part of the writer or what? I always thought it was a natural
> part of the wires to be able to turn them off. Anybody ever notice this?
>
I noticed it, too.... but I always assumed that the reflex trigger is a
piece of retro-active cyberware that should have been included in first
ed basic rules. All the characters I've seen since cybertech have it if
they've got wires, so it's nothing extraordinary.

I guess the game designers want to increase the level of paranoia in the
game a little, making the sammies a bit fearful of jumping the gun.

Bleach
Message no. 15
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical Reaction
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 07:48:48 -0500
TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU wrote:

<Snip>

> OK, I haven't really seen anything from Cybertechnology, but why is it
> that you haven't been able to turn off the wires before it came out? I know the
> short stories in the beginning of the books aren't "gospel", but I remember
> Nameless from the story in SR2 mentioned not turning his wired reflexes on in
> that story. And the book was published before Cybertech came out. Is this just
> a slip up on the part of the writer or what? I always thought it was a natural
> part of the wires to be able to turn them off. Anybody ever notice this?

You are incorrect on this one. ;) The novels are NOT canon for just
this reason. The authors do with the information they have whatever
they want. One of the big down sides to having wired reflexes is that
you CAN'T turn them off (at least not without the proper accompanying
cyberwear). This makes street sams who are wired to the gills jumpy all
the time and that much more likely to overreact and cause a scene over
nothing.

This is one of the few things I actually LIKED about JOHNNY MNUMONIC.
It showed society's reaction to someone who had some form of enhanced
reflexes, and how skittish and jumpy that person was all the time.

> -The Immortal Mental

Justin
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu

Further Reading

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