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Message no. 1
From: Zebulin Magby zebulingod@*****.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 21:29:43 -0700
An issue came up over a game this past weekend. I don't own SRComp3 (Mainly
because I didn't want to shell out the money for a few typo-fixes and a few
new pages of stuff), but I'd like to know if someone can help me out with
the following questions?

There is a SOTA for deckers, riggers, samurai, etc., but is there one for
magic?
(I would assume so, but I couldn't come up with a good explanation, and my
players vehemently resisted all attempts on my part to do so.)

If there is a SOTA for magic, how is it explained? Furthermore, can someone
give me a brief description of the various things that "degrade"?

Thanks in advance!

-Zebulin-Magby-
ICQ: 21932827
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++

"The splendor of the Universe pales in comparison to that of a fine woman."
-Me '2K
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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!PS PE Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv b+++>$ DI++++ D++ G+ e* h--- r+++ z+++
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Message no. 2
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 23:34:59 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zebulin Magby" <zebulingod@*****.com>

> If there is a SOTA for magic, how is it explained? Furthermore, can
someone
> give me a brief description of the various things that "degrade"?

I would count SOTA for magic as showing up two places: Magic Background and
Spell Defense.

Basically, people are studying magic all the time. Unless a character keeps
up with this research (spending money for journals, etc.), he's going to
have a harder time defending against someone who has kept up with the latest
breakthrough in penetrating spell defense, and will also have trouble
understanding a formula written incorporating the latest research. Thus,
rather than his equipment getting less effective, he becomes less effective
and relevant... just like a scholar who doesn't keep up with the latest
developments in his field.

***
Nexx
a.k.a. Mark Hall
***
"If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candlelight, moonlight, no
light. If I lose paper and ink I will write in blood on forgotten walls. I
will write always. I will capture nights all over the world and bring them
to you."
-Henry Rollins
***
http://www-personal.interkan.net/~nexx/index.html
Updated September 30th, 2000
Message no. 3
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 00:52:00 -0400
Since I ask so many questions I'll take a shot at answering one...


<Snip>
> ...An issue came up over a game this past weekend.
> I don't own SRComp3 (Mainly because I didn't want
> to shell out the money for a few typo-fixes and a
> few new pages of stuff)...
</Snip>

I wont fault you for this, but I will say that of all the updated books
this one was the one that incorporated the most new material (IMHO). I've
found it very helpful, and a good bit different then the previous version.


<Snip>
> ...There is a SOTA for deckers, riggers, samurai,
> etc., but is there one for magic?...
</Snip>

Yep.


<Snip>
> If there is a SOTA for magic, how is it explained?
> Furthermore, can someone give me a brief
> description of the various things that "degrade"?
</Snip>

The things that degrade, by the book, are your Library and Magical
Background skill. The idea behind the SOTA for magic is the concept of new
advancements in magical theory. If you fall behind your ability suffers. I
think that makes perfect sense. If magical theories advance and you don't
keep up with the times it will be harder for you to study new magics.

Hope that helps,
Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle


"If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst at once into the sky,
That would be like the splendor of the Mighty One... I am become Death,
The shatterer of Worlds."
-- The Bhagavad-Gita (quoted by Dr. Robert Openheimer after the first test
of an atomic bomb)
Message no. 4
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 18:53:16 GMT
>From: "Zebulin Magby" <zebulingod@*****.com>
>There is a SOTA for deckers, riggers, samurai, etc., but is there one for
>magic?
>(I would assume so, but I couldn't come up with a good explanation, and my
>players vehemently resisted all attempts on my part to do so.)

Magic levels are constantly rising; there are numerous acidemic texts and
wierdness magazines being published all the time that discuss new
phenominon. I find magic SOTA one of the more plausable parts of the SOTA
rules.

For example; I have a crate of 100 Heavy Pistol rounds sitting in my flat.
Armor comes up on the STOA roll, so these 100 rounds suddenly become more
effective against armor!?!

>If there is a SOTA for magic, how is it explained? Furthermore, can someone
>give me a brief description of the various things that "degrade"?

Magical Theory and hermetic librarys.

Phil

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Message no. 5
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 10:46:39 +0200
According to Phil Smith, at 18:53 on 2 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

> Magic levels are constantly rising; there are numerous acidemic texts and
> wierdness magazines being published all the time that discuss new
> phenominon. I find magic SOTA one of the more plausable parts of the SOTA
> rules.

They say that the magic level is rising, but actually hardly anything has
really changed since first edition (the game mechanics are different, but
magic hasn't become more powerful IMO).

> For example; I have a crate of 100 Heavy Pistol rounds sitting in my flat.
> Armor comes up on the STOA roll, so these 100 rounds suddenly become more
> effective against armor!?!

Only against older types of armor, not against the new models :)

> >If there is a SOTA for magic, how is it explained? Furthermore, can someone
> >give me a brief description of the various things that "degrade"?
>
> Magical Theory and hermetic librarys.

If there is one thing that should be subject to SOTA rules, it's Knowledge
skills and libraries (of any kind, not just magical ones). Some would
degrade faster than others -- for instance, today a library of computer
books will be out of date much faster than one on cooking -- but in any
field for which new things are developed should be subject to SOTA for its
related knowledge skills. It would require a re-write of the SOTA rules,
though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 6
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 08:59:11 -0400
Once upon a time, Zebulin Magby wrote;

>If there is a SOTA for magic, how is it explained? Furthermore, can someone
>give me a brief description of the various things that "degrade"?

This is one of those things I've never accepted. No matter how hard
you try to justify it it just doesn't hold water. IMNSHO, magic was given
a SOTA just to keep it 'in game balance' with everything else suffering
from SOTA. With the heavy Karma demands of magic I don't even find that
necessary.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 7
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 11:02:50 EDT
>From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
>
>They say that the magic level is rising, but actually hardly
>anything has really changed since first edition (the game mechanics
>are different, but magic hasn't become more powerful IMO).

Well, since SR1 they've added watchers, new foci types, new
metamagic techniques, and more stuff for spirits.

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Message no. 8
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 10:46:46 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Tomasso" <rtomasso@*******.com>

> >From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
> >
> >They say that the magic level is rising, but actually hardly
> >anything has really changed since first edition (the game mechanics
> >are different, but magic hasn't become more powerful IMO).
>
> Well, since SR1 they've added watchers, new foci types, new
> metamagic techniques, and more stuff for spirits.

Yeah, but that's not tied to the magic level of SR, but rather to
refinements in Magic Theory (and weren't watchers and allies in the first
Grimoire, too?).

::chuckle:: I suppose you could say that someone who hasn't upped his Magic
Theory (or Magic Background) since being created in SR1 wouldn't know
anything about watchers, since they haven't kept up with SOTA.
Message no. 9
From: Ahrain Drigar Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 12:05:45 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Magical SOTA?


> They say that the magic level is rising, but actually hardly anything has
> really changed since first edition (the game mechanics are different, but
> magic hasn't become more powerful IMO).

Well, in first Ed. You had Power Dart, Power Missile, Power Bolt, Heal M
wound, Heal L wound, etc.

In 2 ed. you have Heal. just that Heal. but still Dart, Missile and Bolt
and Mind Probe much less effective, etc.

In 3 rd. You have a variable damage power bolt, heal is the same, mind probe
is MUCH more powerful, etc.

Now, IMHO, I take that as an increase in the flow of mana, allowing spells
to do more. More than just rules changes. (Yes, I know this has been
discussed before.)

Now one way of looking at SOTA could be a mage behind on SOTA could still
have spells like in first Ed.

example
John, an old hermetic, quit the shadows in 2050. He hasn't really kept
up with the times as he should and in 2060 starts working with a rookie,
showing him a few "tricks of the trade". He shows him the usefulness of
Magical Healing in a running party.
Rookie, "Geex, old timer, you NEED a sling for the mojo you're slinging.
That kinda healin' more out a' date than reruns of Gilligans Island."
Hence, SOTA.

<SNIP>

> If there is one thing that should be subject to SOTA rules, it's Knowledge
> skills and libraries (of any kind, not just magical ones). Some would
> degrade faster than others -- for instance, today a library of computer
> books will be out of date much faster than one on cooking -- but in any
> field for which new things are developed should be subject to SOTA for its
> related knowledge skills. It would require a re-write of the SOTA rules,
> though.

I definately agree. This could be done by modifying the SOTA chart or by
the GM determaning the technology curve and what progresses faster in his
game world, therefore what SOTA is called for.

That wouldn't be that bad an idea. : )
You up for it? : P

Ahrain
Message no. 10
From: Zebulin Magby zebulingod@*****.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 09:25:58 -0700
"MC23" <mc23@**********.com> wrote:

> Once upon a time, Zebulin Magby wrote;
>
> >If there is a SOTA for magic, how is it explained? Furthermore, can
someone
> >give me a brief description of the various things that "degrade"?
>
> This is one of those things I've never accepted. No matter how hard
> you try to justify it it just doesn't hold water. IMNSHO, magic was given
> a SOTA just to keep it 'in game balance' with everything else suffering
> from SOTA. With the heavy Karma demands of magic I don't even find that
> necessary.
>

That's what my players are arguing. But then, if they argue that, the
gun-bunnies are going to start arguing that their stuff doesn't degrade.
"Why would my bullet suddenly lose power? It has the same amount of
propellent, etc, etc, etc."


-Zebulin-Magby-
ICQ: 21932827
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++

"The splendor of the Universe pales in comparison to that of a fine woman."
-Me '2K
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GU d- s+:+>: a22 C++++ UL-- P L+(--) E? W+++ N++ o? K- w+ O---- M-(--) V?
!PS PE Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv b+++>$ DI++++ D++ G+ e* h--- r+++ z+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



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Message no. 11
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 19:31:19 +0200
According to Richard Tomasso, at 11:02 on 3 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

> >They say that the magic level is rising, but actually hardly
> >anything has really changed since first edition (the game mechanics
> >are different, but magic hasn't become more powerful IMO).
>
> Well, since SR1 they've added watchers, new foci types, new
> metamagic techniques, and more stuff for spirits.

They have, but not very much of that has been in a way of "This wasn't
there before now, but it has suddenly appeared now." Of course, the same
can be argued over weapons, vehicles, decking, etc.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: dartheggbert@****.com dartheggbert@****.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 14:56:26 +0000
Greetings from the Lurker Zone,


> >They say that the magic level is rising, but actually hardly
> >anything has really changed since first edition (the game mechanics
> >are different, but magic hasn't become more powerful IMO).

> Well, since SR1 they've added watchers, new foci types, new
> metamagic techniques, and more stuff for spirits.

They have also increased the amount of Magical Threats ( Toxics, Wraiths,
Insects, Blood Magic, and the new Year of the Comet Stuff), There are
more classes of Magics ( Voudun, WuXun) More types of spirits (Spirits of
the Elements, Ancestor Spirits, Loa), more types of magicians ( adepts,
Aspected magicians, physical mages) And finally more metahumans and a
wider spread of them( It started out that meta's were priority A now they
are C or D) Drain between SR1 and SR2 was halved (SR1 was F SR2 was
.5F)And finally they also state in MitS that the number of magic users
has jumped from 1% to over 2%.

I'd say magic has changed from SR1 and it's only been 10 years, imagine
what will happen in the next 10.

Czar Eggbert
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Message no. 13
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 21:11:08 GMT
>From: dartheggbert@****.com
> > >They say that the magic level is rising, but actually hardly
> > >anything has really changed since first edition (the game mechanics
> > >are different, but magic hasn't become more powerful IMO).
>
> > Well, since SR1 they've added watchers, new foci types, new
> > metamagic techniques, and more stuff for spirits.
>
>They have also increased the amount of Magical Threats ( Toxics, Wraiths,
>Insects, Blood Magic, and the new Year of the Comet Stuff), There are
>more classes of Magics ( Voudun, WuXun) More types of spirits (Spirits of
>the Elements, Ancestor Spirits, Loa), more types of magicians ( adepts,
>Aspected magicians, physical mages) And finally more metahumans and a
>wider spread of them( It started out that meta's were priority A now they
>are C or D) Drain between SR1 and SR2 was halved (SR1 was F SR2 was
>.5F)And finally they also state in MitS that the number of magic users
>has jumped from 1% to over 2%.
>
>I'd say magic has changed from SR1 and it's only been 10 years, imagine
>what will happen in the next 10.

Yeah, but none of the magic books (or very few) said "this is new; it wasn't
there before." As Gurth was saying before; they don't attribute a lot to
the magical SOTA. The way I read it is that the main rulebook outlines what
most magic users are doing. The other magic rulebooks tell us what the
wierd ones are up to.

Phil

Let us assume we have a can opener.
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Message no. 14
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:16:19 -0400
<Czar Eggbert>...I'd say magic has changed from SR1 and it's only been 10
years, imagine what will happen in the next 10...
</Czar Eggbert>

<Phil Smith> ...Yeah, but none of the magic books (or very few) said "this
is new; it wasn't there before." As Gurth was saying before; they don't
attribute a lot to the magical SOTA. The way I read it is that the main
rulebook outlines what most magic users are doing. The other magic
rulebooks tell us what the wierd ones are up to...
</Phil Smith>


Now see.. I read it the other way myself. I saw the things in the various
magic books as advances in magic above and beyond the stuff in the core
book. Which would make them SOTA. Of course I am also of the belief that
things like "missile weapon foci are not possible" and "magic can not
affect time or space" were put in place so that we could eventually have
*great leaps* in magical SOTA.


Another 0.02¥,
Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle
Message no. 15
From: Lars Wagner Hansen l-hansen@*****.tele.dk
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:32:17 +0200
From: Aristotle <antithesis@**********.com>
> <Phil Smith> ...Yeah, but none of the magic books (or very few) said "this
> is new; it wasn't there before." As Gurth was saying before; they don't
> attribute a lot to the magical SOTA. The way I read it is that the main
> rulebook outlines what most magic users are doing. The other magic
> rulebooks tell us what the wierd ones are up to...
> </Phil Smith>
>
> Now see.. I read it the other way myself. I saw the things in the various
> magic books as advances in magic above and beyond the stuff in the core
> book. Which would make them SOTA.

So does that mean that you have a magical SOTA that goes up and down?

SR1: Normal level
GR1: Advance in Magical SOTA
SR2: Decline in Magical SOTA, but still a bit above SR1 (since adepts are
there)
GR2: Advance in Magical SOTA
Awakening: Advance in Magical SOTA
SR3: Decline in Magical SOTA (Adepts, but no ritual Sorcery)
MItS: Advance in Magical SOTA

It gets even better if you include things like QE, UB, BD and BC, which all
incorporate new magic elements.

Lars :-)
--
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Message no. 16
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:10:13 -0400
<Phil Smith> ...Yeah, but none of the magic books
(or very few) said "this is new; it wasn't there
before." As Gurth was saying before; they don't
attribute a lot to the magical SOTA. The way I
read it is that the main rulebook outlines what
most magic users are doing. The other magic
rulebooks tell us what the wierd ones are up to...
</Phil Smith>

<Aristotle> ...Now see.. I read it the other way
myself. I saw the things in the various magic
books as advances in magic above and beyond the
stuff in the core book. Which would make them SOTA.
</Aristotle>

<Lars> ...So does that mean that you have a magical
SOTA that goes up and down?

SR1: Normal level
GR1: Advance in Magical SOTA
SR2: Decline in Magical SOTA, but still a bit above SR1 (since adepts
arethere)
GR2: Advance in Magical SOTA
Awakening: Advance in Magical SOTA
SR3: Decline in Magical SOTA (Adepts, but no ritual Sorcery)
MItS: Advance in Magical SOTA
</Lars>


Okay I see what you are saying.. but wasn't the assumption always that a
new Edition of the core rules does not make the source books for the
previous version obsolete. I know it was put in print in SR3, but it only
makes sense that it was always like that... so then it runs like this.

SR1: The Mana rises and magic is possible.
GR1: Advances in magical SOTA
SR2: Some advances in magic, and the rules for it. SOTA still going up.
GR2: GR1 NOW obsolete, things found within are NOW updated. hence SOTA.
Awakenings: SOTA going up even further.
SR3: Some minor SOTA advancements. GR2 and Awakenings not obsolete.
MItS: Both Awakenings and GR2 now obsolete. Things found in those books
have NOW been affected by SOTA.


Just another 0.02¥,
Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle

--------------------------------------------------------------
"If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst at once into
the sky, That would be like the splendor of the Mighty One...
I am become Death, The shatterer of Worlds."
--------------------------------------------------------------
-- The Bhagavad-Gita
(quoted by Dr. Robert Openheimer after the first test of an atomic bomb)
Message no. 17
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:14:20 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aristotle" <antithesis@**********.com>

>
> SR1: The Mana rises and magic is possible.
> GR1: Advances in magical SOTA
> SR2: Some advances in magic, and the rules for it. SOTA still going up.
> GR2: GR1 NOW obsolete, things found within are NOW updated. hence SOTA.
> Awakenings: SOTA going up even further.
> SR3: Some minor SOTA advancements. GR2 and Awakenings not obsolete.
> MItS: Both Awakenings and GR2 now obsolete. Things found in those books
> have NOW been affected by SOTA.

However, by that logic, the Carib League (formed in part due to the power of
houngans) didn't exist until 2057, because Awakenings was the first place to
deal with Voodoo. Given that most of the magical traditions of the world
are assumed to suddenly start working once the Awakening happens, they all
of a sudden radically changed form in 2057. And that doesn't even begin to
cover beings like Dragons and IEs, who would have the 4th Age's knowledge of
magic to work from, placing them far above the SOTA curve, since they
already know how to operate more effectively at the higher mana levels.

***
Nexx
a.k.a. Mark Hall
***
"If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candlelight, moonlight, no
light. If I lose paper and ink I will write in blood on forgotten walls. I
will write always. I will capture nights all over the world and bring them
to you."
-Henry Rollins
***
http://www-personal.interkan.net/~nexx/index.html
Updated September 30th, 2000
Message no. 18
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 19:28:33 -0400
<Aristotle>
SR1: The Mana rises and magic is possible.
GR1: Advances in magical SOTA
SR2: Some advances in magic, and the rules for it. SOTA still going up.
GR2: GR1 NOW obsolete, things found within are NOW updated. hence SOTA.
Awakenings: SOTA going up even further.
SR3: Some minor SOTA advancements. GR2 and Awakenings not obsolete.
MItS: Both Awakenings and GR2 now obsolete. Things found in those books
have NOW been affected by SOTA.
</Aristotle>

<Nexx> ...However, by that logic, the Carib League (formed in part due to
the power of houngans) didn't exist until 2057, because Awakenings was the
first place to deal with Voodoo. Given that most of the magical
traditions of the world are assumed to suddenly start working once the
Awakening happens, they all of a sudden radically changed form in 2057.
And that doesn't even begin to cover beings like Dragons and IEs, who
would have the 4th Age's knowledge of magic to work from, placing them far
above the SOTA curve, since they already know how to operate more
effectively at the higher mana levels.
</Nexx>

Well then.. and please understand I am only stating my point of view, and
I don't have nearly the SR background that most of you do. I believe that
the items/rules in The Grimoire, Awakenings, and MitS don't just suddenly
hit the scene and that is how magic works all of a sudden. They introduce
the magics that PLAYERS may access at the time that those magics start
becoming more available on the streets. Voodoo (or Vodu) had probably been
being practiced by a small percentage of the world in 2050. It isn't SOTA
that it is now all of a sudden there. It is SOTA because others now
understand it. Magics available to IE's and Dragons isn't being published.
Players don't need to see those magics as they can not have them.

*shrug* this is JUST an opinion,
Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle

--------------------------------------------------------------
"If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst at once into
the sky, That would be like the splendor of the Mighty One...
I am become Death, The shatterer of Worlds."
--------------------------------------------------------------
-- The Bhagavad-Gita
(quoted by Dr. Robert Openheimer after the first test of an atomic bomb)
Message no. 19
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:12:46 -0400
Once upon a time, Zebulin Magby wrote;

>That's what my players are arguing. But then, if they argue that, the
>gun-bunnies are going to start arguing that their stuff doesn't degrade.
>"Why would my bullet suddenly lose power? It has the same amount of
>propellent, etc, etc, etc."

Tell them to pay Karma for those bullets. B>P#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"THAT'S NOT FAIR!"
"You say that so often. I wonder what your basis for comparison is."
-Sarah and Jareth, Labyrinth

I am MC23
Message no. 20
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 00:27:59 -0400
Once upon a time, Aristotle wrote;

>Well then.. and please understand I am only stating my point of view, and
>I don't have nearly the SR background that most of you do. I believe that
>the items/rules in The Grimoire, Awakenings, and MitS don't just suddenly
>hit the scene and that is how magic works all of a sudden. They introduce
>the magics that PLAYERS may access at the time that those magics start
>becoming more available on the streets. Voodoo (or Vodu) had probably been
>being practiced by a small percentage of the world in 2050. It isn't SOTA
>that it is now all of a sudden there. It is SOTA because others now
>understand it. Magics available to IE's and Dragons isn't being published.
>Players don't need to see those magics as they can not have them.

Voodoo exists now. [note; this is not a invite to rant about RW vs.
SR magic just an admission of belief and practice. I being a nihilist do
not believe in magic but I do recognize there are practitioners
regardless of my personal beliefs.]

The basis of SR magic is founded in RW history (or more to the point
that SR magic has its roots in what was being practiced in it's early
history). SOTA is a ridiculous thing to consider when most SR mages are
using musty old tomes for the basis of their wiz even if they are using
the latest magic theories. Hell, Shaman's wiz is all based on history,
they are in many forms anti-SOTA.
I guess the real crux of my point is that you really should never
ever relate RPG rules SOTA to RPG background/campaign SOTA. They are to
separate entities.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 21
From: dartheggbert@****.com dartheggbert@****.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:38:58 +0000
On Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:14:20 -0500 "Nexx" <nexx@********.net> writes:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aristotle" <antithesis@**********.com>
>
> >
> > SR1: The Mana rises and magic is possible.
> > GR1: Advances in magical SOTA
> > SR2: Some advances in magic, and the rules for it. SOTA still
> going up.
> > GR2: GR1 NOW obsolete, things found within are NOW updated. hence
> SOTA.
> > Awakenings: SOTA going up even further.
> > SR3: Some minor SOTA advancements. GR2 and Awakenings not
> obsolete.
> > MItS: Both Awakenings and GR2 now obsolete. Things found in those
> books
> > have NOW been affected by SOTA.
>
> However, by that logic, the Carib League (formed in part due to the
> power of
> houngans) didn't exist until 2057, because Awakenings was the first
> place to
> deal with Voodoo. Given that most of the magical traditions of the
> world
> are assumed to suddenly start working once the Awakening happens,
> they all
> of a sudden radically changed form in 2057. And that doesn't even
> begin to
> cover beings like Dragons and IEs, who would have the 4th Age's
> knowledge of
> magic to work from, placing them far above the SOTA curve, since
> they
> already know how to operate more effectively at the higher mana
> levels.
>
> ***
> Nexx
> a.k.a. Mark Hall
> ***
> "If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candlelight,
> moonlight, no
> light. If I lose paper and ink I will write in blood on forgotten
> walls. I
> will write always. I will capture nights all over the world and
> bring them
> to you."
> -Henry Rollins
> ***
> http://www-personal.interkan.net/~nexx/index.html
> Updated September 30th, 2000
>
>
>
>

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Message no. 22
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 11:40:20 +0200
According to Aristotle, at 19:28 on 4 Oct 00, the word on the street
was...

> It isn't SOTA that it is now all of a sudden there. It is SOTA because
> others now understand it.

"State of the art," as I understand it, means "The best way we know how to
do it." In a way, that would make 50-year-old tech (or magic -- I could
quote Arthur C. Clarke here, but I won't :) SOTA as long as nobody has
found a better way. However, that does mean something is SOTA the moment
it first appear, not when others understand it (they may only say it's
SOTA once they understand it, but that's not the same IMO).

As far as SR magic is concerned, just about all the examples given would
have existed in the game world long before FASA published the rules for
them (and, in many cases, long before someone behind the scenes thought of
them). But that doesn't make them SOTA, it just makes them a new item for
players to mess around with...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It was a warning shot that missed.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 23
From: dartheggbert@****.com dartheggbert@****.com
Subject: Magical SOTA?
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 15:35:41 +0000
> On Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:14:20 -0500 "Nexx" <nexx@********.net> writes:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Aristotle" <antithesis@**********.com>
> >
> > >
> > > SR1: The Mana rises and magic is possible.
> > > GR1: Advances in magical SOTA
> > > SR2: Some advances in magic, and the rules for it. SOTA still
> > going up.
> > > GR2: GR1 NOW obsolete, things found within are NOW updated.
> hence
> > SOTA.
> > > Awakenings: SOTA going up even further.
> > > SR3: Some minor SOTA advancements. GR2 and Awakenings not
> > obsolete.
> > > MItS: Both Awakenings and GR2 now obsolete. Things found in
> those
> > books
> > > have NOW been affected by SOTA.
> >
> > However, by that logic, the Carib League (formed in part due to
> the
> > power of
> > houngans) didn't exist until 2057, because Awakenings was the
> first
> > place to
> > deal with Voodoo. Given that most of the magical traditions of
> the
> > world
> > are assumed to suddenly start working once the Awakening happens,
> > they all
> > of a sudden radically changed form in 2057. And that doesn't even
>
> > begin to
> > cover beings like Dragons and IEs, who would have the 4th Age's
> > knowledge of
> > magic to work from, placing them far above the SOTA curve, since
> > they
> > already know how to operate more effectively at the higher mana
> > levels.

Okay, here's the way I see it...

Voudun and all the other spiffy new traditions existed before the
soucebooks came out, but at that time nothing much was known about them.
Think about it this way, Voudun and WuXun(sp) were known, and even talked
about but the Hermetics and maybe even the Shamen but as far as they knew
there was no real difference between them. They thought that Voudon was a
Shamanic path where they called their totems "Loa" and WuXun (for the
most part) was a Hermetic path that called their Elementals "Spirits of
the Elements) and unless you lived where they were practiced you never
saw them and never would know any different. Then came the articals in
MitS and Awakenings where it was shown that they are very different,
summon different classes of spirits... etc, etc. Now if a UCAS mage runs
into someone who is being ridden by a Loa he won't automaticaly think it
is a free spirit posession, or treat the Spirit of the Elements like an
Elemental. (if he has enough magical backgrouns that is) Sota also works
with wards and metamagic in the normal way, new metamagica will be
comming around everyso often and Ward theory must be changing almost as
fast as Guns and armor. ("Hey I just found a weakness in the
Finstine-Fuller Ward paragim all you do is inverse the streams and cross
you fingers") And I do believe that this works with shamen as well, they
still would have to take time (karma) to learn about the changes from
thier totems.


just my 4=Y
Czar Eggbert
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