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Message no. 1
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Magical surgery?
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:39:38 -0800
It's given that spells exist capable of reshaping objects on a permanent
basis-- Fashion being the most notable. All the manipulation spells capable
of changing the shape of living things are sustained: once you relax the
spell, the being returns to normal.

The spell design system suggests that it's possible to do permanent
shapeshifting-- I don't recall anything in the Grimoire that says you
can't do that-- but I'd argue against permitting such spells. (You could
make a *lot* of money with permanent "Turn to Elf" spells that you could
cast on Elf Posers...)

However, one possibility does occur to me: should it be possible for
spells such as "reshape bone", "reshape cartilage", "remove
scars", and
"remove fat cells" to work permanently? These are all things you can do to
a person through surgery-- you aren't transforming cells so much as
rearranging them or removing them.

If this is possible, it suggests that there may be magical "plastic surgeons"
out there who can arrange for a new face for you much more quickly than
a traditional surgeon. (It might be possible to rearrange voice boxes,
too, changing your voice print, though it would be extremely difficult to do
so for the purpose of matching someone else's voice print.) Fingerprints
and retinal prints I'm not so sure could be easily reshaped, and cell
scans would still match, but it could serve as a nifty step in changing your
identity...

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "So, an Arisian, a Vorlon, and a knnn go into a tavern..." %%
Message no. 2
From: Gossamer <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: Re: Magical surgery?
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 14:31:01 -0500
> The spell design system suggests that it's possible to do permanent
> shapeshifting-- I don't recall anything in the Grimoire that says you
> can't do that-- but I'd argue against permitting such spells. (You could
> make a *lot* of money with permanent "Turn to Elf" spells that you could
> cast on Elf Posers...)

What the Grimoire II does say is that these type of spells can be heavily
unbalancing, and should be allowed only with GM permission. Take
for example my FAVORITE spell Turn to Plant (permanent). It is the
greatest revenge spell ever! If you own property, you can have your
own little garden/grove/forest of former rivals, beaten enemies, and
other people whom you've conquered so overwhelmingly that you can
capture them alive rather than killing them. And people wonder why
all the trees in my backyard have names...

[neat things do with Health type manip spells deleted]

Again, it's up to the GM and player(s). Remember, anything you
can get, an NPC already has...

Gossamer
Message no. 3
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Magical surgery?
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 20:35:23 EDT
On Fri, 11 Apr 1997 09:39:38 -0800 Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
writes:
<short snip>
>The spell design system suggests that it's possible to do permanent
>shapeshifting-- I don't recall anything in the Grimoire that says you
>can't do that-- but I'd argue against permitting such spells. (You
could
>make a *lot* of money with permanent "Turn to Elf" spells that you could
>cast on Elf Posers...)

Or you could do some serious revenge making on a Humanis member with
"Turn to Ork" Permanent:)


>However, one possibility does occur to me: should it be possible for
>spells such as "reshape bone", "reshape cartilage", "remove
scars", and
>"remove fat cells" to work permanently? These are all things you can do
to
>a person through surgery-- you aren't transforming cells so much as
>rearranging them or removing them.

Of course, such a spell would only be Permanent in the same way the
"Healthy Glow" is permanent, it only lasts until the body returns to it's
original state. But you could also create spells like "implant
(cyberware/bioware)", or "repair (organ)" . . . Definitely open to abuse
(because magical surgery can be assumed or interpreted as being less
invasive and having reduced Essence/Body Index costs).


>If this is possible, it suggests that there may be magical "plastic
surgeons"
>out there who can arrange for a new face for you much more quickly than
>a traditional surgeon. (It might be possible to rearrange voice boxes,
>too, changing your voice print, though it would be extremely difficult
to do
>so for the purpose of matching someone else's voice print.)
Fingerprints
>and retinal prints I'm not so sure could be easily reshaped, and cell
>scans would still match, but it could serve as a nifty step in changing
your
>identity...

I could see specific spells capable of such changes . . . but perhaps
with the reasoning that the body will eventually return itself to its
original state . . .

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, lobo1@****.com
let him prepare for war. canthros1@***.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 4
From: Benjamin Pflugmann
Subject: Re: Magical surgery?
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:05:47 +0100
> > The spell design system suggests that it's possible to do permanent
> > shapeshifting-- I don't recall anything in the Grimoire that says you
> > can't do that-- but I'd argue against permitting such spells. (You could
> > make a *lot* of money with permanent "Turn to Elf" spells that you
could
> > cast on Elf Posers...)
>
> What the Grimoire II does say is that these type of spells can be heavily
> unbalancing, and should be allowed only with GM permission. Take
> for example my FAVORITE spell Turn to Plant (permanent). It is the

Hm. I guess You missed the point. He was talking about plastic surgery and
NOT "metamorphing" (sorry do not know the english word). That is not to
change your body into something total different (what cannot be done by
surgery yet), but some simple changes to your appearance that one cannot
recognize you furthermore.

His "Turn to Elf" was meant as "take something away and give him these ears
and so on". I think he was not talking about "Turn dwarf into Elf".

Correct me, if I am wrong.

> greatest revenge spell ever! If you own property, you can have your
> own little garden/grove/forest of former rivals, beaten enemies, and
> other people whom you've conquered so overwhelmingly that you can
> capture them alive rather than killing them. And people wonder why
> all the trees in my backyard have names...
>
> [neat things do with Health type manip spells deleted]
>
> Again, it's up to the GM and player(s). Remember, anything you
> can get, an NPC already has...
>
> Gossamer
>

Bye,

Benjamin.

--
pfb08188@*****.physik.uni-regensburg.de
benjamin@*****.leibniz.in-passau.de
Message no. 5
From: Jessica Snyder <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magical surgery?
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:35:54 -0500
[turn to elf stuff deleted]

>> What the Grimoire II does say is that these type of spells can be heavily
>> unbalancing, and should be allowed only with GM permission.

>Hm. I guess You missed the point. He was talking about plastic surgery and
>NOT "metamorphing" (sorry do not know the english word). That is not to
>change your body into something total different (what cannot be done by
>surgery yet), but some simple changes to your appearance that one cannot
>recognize you furthermore.

I believe I understood. But as far as the game mechanics goes, I think
that the design philosophy is the same for all Transformation magick.
The level of severity of the change is used by the designer of the
spell to determine how long the spell must be sustained before the
effects become permanent. And it is my understanding that plastic
surgery is a type of transformation... That's my personal opinion,
having looked at the rules and tried to make a best fit.

Perhaps one of the real gurus here can give us a clearer view
on the game mechanics involved... (that's a cry for help, btw)

Gossamer
Message no. 6
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Magical surgery?
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 19:56:41 +0100
In message <3.0.32.19970411093912.009154b0@****.com>, Max Rible
<slothman@*********.ORG> writes
>However, one possibility does occur to me: should it be possible for
>spells such as "reshape bone", "reshape cartilage", "remove
scars", and
>"remove fat cells" to work permanently? These are all things you can do to
>a person through surgery-- you aren't transforming cells so much as
>rearranging them or removing them.

Yep, I've had this damn near for ever :) Magic is powerful.

>If this is possible, it suggests that there may be magical "plastic
surgeons"
>out there who can arrange for a new face for you much more quickly than
>a traditional surgeon. (It might be possible to rearrange voice boxes,
>too, changing your voice print, though it would be extremely difficult to do
>so for the purpose of matching someone else's voice print.) Fingerprints
>and retinal prints I'm not so sure could be easily reshaped, and cell
>scans would still match, but it could serve as a nifty step in changing your
>identity...

Yeah, but price, price, price.

Just think what it costs to have a magician persuade your body to go up
two cup sizes in the chest and lose thirty pounds of cellulite off your
hips and thighs (for female customers) or to magically convince your
scalp to be hairy and your gut to go away again (for male customers).

Yeah, you could do it with surgery, but magic's quicker, no scars, no
anaesthetics, no scalpels slicing at your tender body, no silicone or
waiting for vatgrown tissue... massive convenience. Which translates to
higher prices.

It's available, just expensive.


Does a runner want to get into this lucrative market? Sure, they _could_
try. Better not have a criminal record, be sure your SIN stands up to a
serious check, and get used to the IRS crawling all over you. In other
words, it's a good way to retire.

You could also make decent money on the street doing facejobs for
criminals... until one of them figures the best way to make sure there's
no link from new to old ID is to kill you after you finish the job.
Cheaper than paying you. Expect to spend a lot on security.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 7
From: Benjamin Pflugmann
Subject: Re: Magical surgery?
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:34:26 +0100
> Just think what it costs to have a magician persuade your body to go up
> two cup sizes in the chest and lose thirty pounds of cellulite off your
> hips and thighs (for female customers) or to magically convince your
> scalp to be hairy and your gut to go away again (for male customers).
>
> Yeah, you could do it with surgery, but magic's quicker, no scars, no
> anaesthetics, no scalpels slicing at your tender body, no silicone or
> waiting for vatgrown tissue... massive convenience. Which translates to
> higher prices.
>
> It's available, just expensive.

Hm. Yes, right, nice idea, IMHO.

[...]

> You could also make decent money on the street doing facejobs for
> criminals... until one of them figures the best way to make sure there's
> no link from new to old ID is to kill you after you finish the job.
> Cheaper than paying you. Expect to spend a lot on security.

Hm. Using a "body mask" (dunno the correct name of the spell), he cannot
recognize me. Making a "sleep spell" the condition for the next one (I
simply do it) and then start the "surgery spell", I should be quiet secure
(he is further sleeping, when I am ready).

Hm. Maybe a problem is that he does not like that he woke up on the street?
:-)

Hm. But seriously: I think doctors are to important to shadowrunners that
anybody can allow to kill the doctor without getting killing by a mob of people
where the doctor has saved their lives. Yes or yes?

Bye,

Benjamin.

--
pfb08188@*****.physik.uni-regensburg.de
benjamin@*****.leibniz.in-passau.de

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