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From:	Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and belief - a dissenting voice (Was: Re: my questions
Date:	Sat, 1 Apr 1995 02:38:37 -6200

Message no. 1 Luke Kendall writes:

> This is Jani's opinion, I'd like to emphasise. In my opinion, the beliefs
> of the mage have little to do with what's possible and what's not. And
> before you ask about Shaman vs Hermetic - I see that as resulting from
> some world views opening the mage to existing possibilities. But reality
> itself is not determined by the observer.

Hey, you know what? I'm in the middle! I think there is some limit,
somewhere, which controls just what you can and can't do, but up until that
particular limit the magician can do as much as be beleives he can. Think of
the shaman, he has some psychological barrier to casting certain spells
(well, some do), while a hermetic can do the lot. But OTOH, the shaman can
do some spells better than the hermetic can (he is as good as he beleives he
is).

--
Damion Milliken Nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+

From:	Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject:	Re: Magic and belief - a dissenting voice (Was: Re: my questions
Date:	Fri, 31 Mar 1995 18:41:31 +0200

Message no. 2 > > What is important however
> > is that the current world view (what your average magician considers to
> > be the facts) is that you cant see through rocessed stuff in the astral.
> > WYTIWYG (What You Think Is What You Get :)
>
> This is Jani's opinion, I'd like to emphasise. In my opinion, the beliefs
> of the mage have little to do with what's possible and what's not. And
> before you ask about Shaman vs Hermetic - I see that as resulting from
> some world views opening the mage to existing possibilities. But reality
> itself is not determined by the observer.

Aha, I think that you misunderstood my arguments. I do not beleive that
"the world view" actually changes reality, let me give you a metaphor to
clarify this. Lets compare the magical world (the astral) with a puddle
of quicksand (that was a good example Damion), quicksand is shapeless
and you can mold it any way you like, but you need a hand/foothold to
keep from drowning in it. So the way I see it, magicians unconsiously use
their knowldege of the physical plane to access the astral. By using this
knowledge they automatically accept all sort of restrictions that come
with it in the physical plane. I hope this makes it clearer...

> There are rules for magic that are based on a magical reality, and a mage's
> beliefs can't change that.

No, but that doesnt have to mean that this magical reality is what we
percieve it to be.

> > > To inspect things astrally from a great distance EX: You are hidden
> > > in the woods, using astral perception and see some presences about 300
> > > meters from you. You try to identify them but the evil GM smiles and says
> > > "sorry, you are too far away".
> >
> > Yep, but who sez that distance plays the same role in the astral as it does
> > on the physical plane ? I'd say that a mage can see as far as he wants.
>
> I'd say a mage can't.

What I wanted to say is that we dont know for sure - although I find
that a limitless vision is more probable especially considering the
amazing tracing capbilities horrors seem to posses.

> I think the difference of opinion about this is because Jani is playing
> in a campaign where there aren't many PC mages - so mages are usually
> the opponents. Interpreting the rules to make them more powerful makes
> it tougher on the players.

I have never thought of our game as magic poor, on the contrary its
quite magic rich. OTOH we only have one mage in the group (at least at a time)
that is either me or the other GM and we both play mages when we dont GM.
But my understanding of magic stemms from my desire to have a solid logical
and consistent base.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?

From:	Keith Johnson <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and belief - a dissenting voice (Was: Re: my questions
Date:	Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:47:55 -0600

Message no. 3 Damion writes:

>Luke Kendall writes:
>
>> This is Jani's opinion, I'd like to emphasise. In my opinion, the beliefs
>> of the mage have little to do with what's possible and what's not. And
>> before you ask about Shaman vs Hermetic - I see that as resulting from
>> some world views opening the mage to existing possibilities. But reality
>> itself is not determined by the observer.
>
>Hey, you know what? I'm in the middle! I think there is some limit,
>somewhere, which controls just what you can and can't do, but up until that
>particular limit the magician can do as much as be beleives he can. Think of
>the shaman, he has some psychological barrier to casting certain spells
>(well, some do), while a hermetic can do the lot. But OTOH, the shaman can
>do some spells better than the hermetic can (he is as good as he beleives he
>is).
>

My perception is much like the guru's (unofficial). I think that there
are rules of the road(Astral Physics) that explain all phenomena. It
is my thought that these are 'absolute' rules which are the untimate
quest of Hermetic mages...

Then there are the perceptions of each magick practioner. These are
the mage's/shaman's view of how magick works. These views are
not absolute, but instead are variable and so allow specialties to
develop.

My 'our world' analogy goes like this:
Racing Cars...
the rules of physics and engineering are our absolutes.

But if you put a baja racer in an indy car and he tries
to go as fast as an indy car racer does, he would probably
crash.

I bet that no indy car driver can go as fast as a dragster
car driver in a dragster.

If the indy car driver was put in a baja racer, and tried
to drive in a cross country race as well as a baja driver,
he'd flip over in the dust.

Their perceptions of what it takes to drive well are
fundamentally different although the underlying principles
of physics and engineering are not.

Note also that the drivers' perceptions of what it takes
to drive well don't even necessarily point to the underlying
physical principles. For example, the baja driver will tell
you to watch out for pot holes because they will damage
your vehicle and/or slow you down, but won't or can't
tell you about the physical reasons for the consequences.
He knows it's bad, the why is not relevent to him(shaman).

The indy car driver can tell you that if you go to fast,
you get thrown into the wall. If he can tell you why, he
may or may not give you the right physical cause. But
he still has enough knowledge to spot the danger and
avoid it.

Just a thought...

Keith

PS If this seems like drivel, sorry; I just made it up.

From:	Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and belief - a dissenting voice (Was: Re: my questions
Date:	Sat, 1 Apr 1995 14:55:25 +1000

Message no. 4 Jani Fikouras writes:

> Aha, I think that you misunderstood my arguments. I do not beleive that
> "the world view" actually changes reality, let me give you a metaphor to
> clarify this. Lets compare the magical world (the astral) with a puddle
> of quicksand (that was a good example Damion), quicksand is shapeless

Actually, the credits don't go to me at all. I think it may have been
Quicksilver who thought up that one.

--
Damion Milliken Nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+

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