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Message no. 1
From: In search of a direction <WNEUMANN@******.BITNET>
Subject: magic and tech.
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 92 19:40:00 EDT
>>>>>[It is true that magic and technology are currently exclusive. The
interesting question is why is this so? Are we, for example, more than
the sum of our parts (ie. more than biological machines)? What is the
basic nature of "technology" that makes it incompatible with "magic"?
Saying "it is because it is" seems to be avoiding the question of why
this is so. So far it appears that the nescessary and sufficient conditions
of magic use are: a)biological constructs and b)natural constructs.
I contend that while these are sufficient conditions they are not nescessary
conditions. That it has been the case that technology and magic are
exclusive is not to be doubted. That it MUST be the case that they are
exclusive is dubious...

In short, what is the essential difference? Is there one, or are we
merely making a potentially invalid inference from past
experience?]<<<<<

-Phoenix <19:32:15/18-10-52>
Message no. 2
From: Alexander Borghgraef <Alexander.Borghgraef@***.AC.BE>
Subject: Magic and Tech
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 16:21:48 --100
Could you use a robot or cyberdrone as a homunculus for an ally ?
Would it benefit from the skills the machine has?
What about AI? Would you consider an AI to be alive? If an AI controls
a cyberdrone or robot, how would it look from the astral?
What would be the effect of total body amputation on essence? Theoretically
it should be possible of keeping a brain alive without a body. You could plug
it into a VR-environment or even put it into a robot of some sort(Robocop!).
But what about essence?(Auch!)

Sick questions, aren't they?


________________________________________________________________
| | |
| Listen to them, | Am I evil? |
| The Children of the Night. | I am man, |
| What sweet music they make! | Yes I am! |
| | |
| Dracul. | Diamond Head/Metallica |
|__________________________________|___________________________|
Message no. 3
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic and Tech
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 11:38:57 -0400
>>>>> "Alexander" == Alexander Borghgraef
<Alexander.Borghgraef@***.AC.BE>
>>>>> writes:

Alexander> Could you use a robot or cyberdrone as a homunculus for an ally?

In theory, yes.

Alexander> Would it benefit from the skills the machine has?

No; the spirit would override any "natural" abilities.

Alexander> What about AI?

No.

Alexander> Would you consider an AI to be alive?

An AI may be sentient, even sapient, but that does not make it a living
thing.

Alexander> If an AI controls a cyberdrone or robot, how would it look from
Alexander> the astral?

Dead.

Assuming AI actually exists, which according to the official word is they
don't (yet). Besides, magic and the matrix do /not/ mix, period.

Alexander> What would be the effect of total body amputation on essence?

None; essence loss is a result of linking electrical systems (ie, the
control circuitry for cyberwear) to the nervous system.

Alexander> Theoretically it should be possible of keeping a brain alive
Alexander> without a body.

Theoretically anything is possible. Practically it is much more difficult.

Alexander> You could plug it into a VR-environment or even put it into a
Alexander> robot of some sort(Robocop!). But what about essence?(Auch!)

The spiritual trauma would be lethal.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Peanut butter isn't a food group, it's a
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|bio-degradable adhesive.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 4
From: Stuart Skabo <sj_skabo@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Magic and Tech
Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 17:25:09 +1000
Alexander writes some very interesting Q's,

> Could you use a robot or cyberdrone as a homunculus for an ally ?
A GM of mine assures me that no, a homunculus can have no moving parts, it
must be of the sculpture/statue type, so could look like a drone etc but
not actually be one. Hence the skills Q is irrelevant. I'm not sure if this
is a written rule but it certainly fits with the artistic-creation process
necessary for true magik.

> What about AI? Would you consider an AI to be alive? If an AI controls
>a cyberdrone or robot, how would it look from the astral?
It isn't alive (biologically) and is not a product of Gaia so no mana aura
but i would imagine that it would have one of the most beautifully complex
'tech' auras around. The drone? who knows?

>Sick questions, aren't they?
No way, this is the stufff good phychotics are made of :)

Macintossed again, nghtchld !
Message no. 5
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic and Tech
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 15:56:56 +0100
> Alexander> You could plug it into a VR-environment or even put it into a
> Alexander> robot of some sort(Robocop!). But what about essence?(Auch!)
> The spiritual trauma would be lethal.

Thats what happened to all the other robocops in robocop 2. Our
robocop - the one that survived - made it thanx to his extreme willpower
and or background (old fashioned values, family - kids, religious etc.)

--
Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS d>d- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UAVSL++>UAVSL+++ P--(aren't we all?)
L+>L+++ 3 E--- N++ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ !5 !j- R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b+++ D++ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 6
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic and Tech
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 1994 11:18:25 -0400
>>>>> "Darth" == Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
writes:

Rat> The spiritual trauma would be lethal.

Darth> Thats what happened to all the other robocops in robocop 2. Our
Darth> robocop - the one that survived - made it thanx to his extreme
Darth> willpower and or background (old fashioned values, family - kids,
Darth> religious etc.)

I always thought it was part of the plot.

Anyway, you couldn't build a RoboCop with vanilla Shadowrun.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Guns cause crime and cars cause vehicular
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|homicide.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 7
From: Hamish Laws <h_laws@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Magic and Tech
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 10:40:05 +1000
Alexander Borghgraef Writes

SNIP
> What would be the effect of total body amputation on essence? Theoretically
>it should be possible of keeping a brain alive without a body. You could plug
>it into a VR-environment or even put it into a robot of some sort(Robocop!).
>But what about essence?(Auch!)
>
If I recall correctly one of the Cyberpunk supplements has rules on such
things, you might be able to get a rough idea of essence by comparing the
stats for other things with similar cyberpsycosis stats (whatever the thing
is actually called) given in cyberpunk with those for similar things in
shadowrun


*************************************************
There has to be an optimist around here somewhere
*************************************************

Hamish Laws
Message no. 8
From: Stuart Skabo <sj_skabo@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Magic and Tech
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 16:11:18 +1000
Re the discussion on whole body amputaions and essence,

A good example of the closest thing u can get to this in SR is the Helions
in the SR Novel "Never Trust an Elf" (which i o'course can't agree with,
it's just the other elves that give me a bad name!). These beasties are
basically full-conversion cyborgs (re:robocop but tougher!)

So "Vanilla" SR can make robocops (at least us GM's can)
I forget who made the "vanilla" comment but it's wrong.

,nghtchld.
Message no. 9
From: Neon Samuria NeonSamuria@***********.com
Subject: Magic and Tech.
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 09:00:02 -0800
GREETINGS ALL!!!!
Does any one know what magical tradition would try to bring about an
evil demon like satan to the world. I am planning a run where the PC's
would have to stop such a ritual. So far I am torn between the Black
Magic, and may be a curropted version of Christian tradition (i.e.
Satanism?).
Also, for smart links, Do you need a scope to use them at long
distance properly? For example, Street Sami. has a smartlink I or II
and a sniper rifle with the same. There is a target he can barley see at
about 500,600 meters. Does he need a scope to still hit it or just the
SM? What about if it was a Light Pistol at about 100 meters?

Neon Samuria

People see things as they are and ask Why,
I dream things that never where and say Why not.


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Message no. 10
From: JLantrip@******.COM JLantrip@******.COM
Subject: Magic and Tech.
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 10:40:18 -0700
>Does any one know what magical tradition would try to bring about an
>evil demon like satan to the world. I am planning a run where the PC's
>would have to stop such a ritual. So far I am torn between the Black
>Magic, and may be a curropted version of Christian tradition (i.e.
>Satanism?).

Modern Satanism (Anton LaVey's crowd) really isn't a corrupted version
of Christianity...it's purely Anton LaVey's invention.
If you want a "real" group, I'd go with a branch of the Astrum
Australis (founded by Aleister Crowley, who referred to himself as the
Devil and "embraced" the Left-Hand path) or, possibly, a group of Enochian
mages (while the details of Enochian magic specify that you're calling on
angels for divine assistance, Edward Kelly (sp?), Dr. John Dee's
"assistant" in the learning/creating of Enochian magic, was apparently
"caught" by Dee using the magic for "evil"/"satanic"
purposes -- or calling
on evil/satanic powers. I can't remember which off the top of my head...).
Enochian magic is probably your best bet, since resources are easier
to find on the web. If you want more information on any of it, let me know.
I think I still have some electronic copies of Dee's work, complete with
charts, tables, etc. (If I don't, I can still scan some of the artwork out
of the book, and help you out in that regard).

Of course, in game terms, without having to do all this extra
research, you can always make a group of toxic shamans who follow the
Adversary totem try to summon something large and powerful.

Personally, I'd just get it all over with and summon Cthulhu! ;)
(Remember: "Cthulhu Saves! -- In Case He Gets Hungry Later...")

--J
Message no. 11
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Magic and Tech.
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:30:46 +0100
According to Neon Samuria, on Sun, 26 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> Does any one know what magical tradition would try to bring about an
> evil demon like satan to the world. I am planning a run where the PC's
> would have to stop such a ritual. So far I am torn between the Black
> Magic, and may be a curropted version of Christian tradition (i.e.
> Satanism?).

I'd use a hermetic magician for this, since they can be virtually anything
you want them to be. Alternatively, you could make a variation on the
rules for shamans and similar magicians, and create a "totem" that gives
bonuses for summoning spirits like these, but hermetics seem easiest to me.

> Also, for smart links, Do you need a scope to use them at long
> distance properly? For example, Street Sami. has a smartlink I or II
> and a sniper rifle with the same. There is a target he can barley see at
> about 500,600 meters. Does he need a scope to still hit it or just the
> SM? What about if it was a Light Pistol at about 100 meters?

Smartlinks and telescopes don't work together, according to the rules
(unless you're using cyberware vision magnification). It's basically a case
of crunching some numbers: the smartlink gives a -2 at all ranges, while the
scope's modifier varies between -1 and -5 with its rating and the range at
which you're shooting. This modifier is independent of the absolute range,
though, so the only thing that counts is the weapon's range groups.

The short form: buy both a mag-3 scope and a smartlink; use the smartlink
at Short and Medium range, the scope at Extreme range, and whichever you
prefer at Long range.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Magic and Tech.
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 21:13:49 -0000
>From: "Neon Samuria" <NeonSamuria@***********.com>
>GREETINGS ALL!!!!

Can you do that again please; I can still hear a little in my left ear :)>

> Does any one know what magical tradition would try to bring about an
>evil demon like satan to the world. I am planning a run where the PC's
>would have to stop such a ritual. So far I am torn between the Black
>Magic, and may be a curropted version of Christian tradition (i.e.
>Satanism?).

Black Magic isn't actually evil (I'm quoting MITS here, not going off on a
Ldy Tinne esque religious rant). In fact, there is no magical tradition
that bases itself around summoning large and evil things that will eat them.
I personally would go with a Petro-Voodoo cult or a group of toxic eco
terrorists, neither would be specificly trying to call Satan, but they would
be trying to summon undesirables.

Phil

Dying is an art like everything else.
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Message no. 13
From: Peter Steen Kristiansen sds@**.auc.dk
Subject: Magic and Tech.
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:29:50 +0100 (MET)
From: "Phil Smith" <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
> >From: "Neon Samuria" <NeonSamuria@***********.com>
> >GREETINGS ALL!!!!
>
> Can you do that again please; I can still hear a little in my left ear :)>
>
> > Does any one know what magical tradition would try to bring about
an
> >evil demon like satan to the world. I am planning a run where the PC's
> >would have to stop such a ritual. So far I am torn between the Black
> >Magic, and may be a curropted version of Christian tradition (i.e.
> >Satanism?).
>
[SNIP]
> I personally would go with a Petro-Voodoo cult or a group of toxic eco
> terrorists, neither would be specificly trying to call Satan, but they
would
> be trying to summon undesirables.
>
Depending on you and your players personal feelings I cannot see anything
wrong with choosing some kind of corrupted form of Christianity - You can
even choose your own personal favourite religious-bad-guy(TM) or just
another off-the-rack Satanic Cult. It isnt that big a deal what tradition
you choose, but personally I would go with some kind of Twisted Hermetic
society.

OR you could go the other way around (mind you, I havent read all the
replies to your post), and let the summoning ritual be performed by a "cult"
(lacking the proper english word) of good priests and warriors of God. This
cult has access to rituals to summon the Fallen Angel himself with the goal
of permanently destroying him and thus making the world a better place to
be. The motivation for stopping this ritual can then be provided by a group
of people who wants to preserve the status quo, as any destruction of either
Good or Evil would be bad (R). OR an evil cult could hire them to disrupt
the summoning at some point (specified by the "wise good people of evil
cult") where the disruption would actually free Satan (in an albeit weaker
version) Mind you it'll still be wise to run and not fight. They would then
be "required" to get to some ancient order of priests who hold the ritual
for banishing this evil...... Wups.. got a wee bit carried away there.

Just remember, what you don't tell your players can only hurt them O;-)

---Peter (sds) Kristiansen--
SRC v0.22 SR1++ SR2+ SR3++ h+ b++(+) B--- UB+ IE+ RN+ W- dk+ sa++ ma++ sh
ad++ ri++ mc-- rk? m- gm M+ P
Message no. 14
From: kat kat@**.sympatico.ca
Subject: Magic and Tech
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 23:38:17 -0500
> From: "Neon Samuria" <NeonSamuria@***********.com>
> Subject: Magic and Tech.
>
> Does any one know what magical tradition would try to bring about an
> evil demon like satan to the world. I am planning a run where the PC's
> would have to stop such a ritual. So far I am torn between the Black
> Magic, and may be a curropted version of Christian tradition (i.e.
> Satanism?).

Hi. Magic in the Shadows has a list of idols that follow the rules of totems. A cult
that follows the Adversary would suit your needs.

The Adversary was the first rebel and is dedicated to usurping power and authority. Proud
and willful, the Adversary is also a cruel and
unfeeling cynic who would prefer to destroy the world if he cannot control it. The
Adversary is a common idol among toxic idol worshipers.

Environment: Everywhere.
Advantages: +2 dice for combat and manipulation spells.
Disadvantages: If wounded, Adversary shamans go berserk in the same way as Bear shamans.
Adversary shamans must succeed in a Willpower (8) Test
to be friendly and civil to authority figures.

Hope this is useful.

Kat
------------------------------------------------------------------------

|\ _,,,---,,_ Is fear rith maith ná drochsheasamh.
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|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) - an Irish
Proverb
Message no. 15
From: Bira ra002585@**.unicamp.br
Subject: Magic and Tech.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:55:59 GMT
On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 09:00:02 -0800
"Neon Samuria" <NeonSamuria@***********.com> wrote:

> GREETINGS ALL!!!!
> Does any one know what magical tradition would try to bring about an
> evil demon like satan to the world. I am planning a run where the PC's
> would have to stop such a ritual. So far I am torn between the Black
> Magic, and may be a curropted version of Christian tradition (i.e.
> Satanism?).

Both seem to be more or less the same thing, from the
descriptions in Magic in the Shadows. You could also go for other
religions, which have their own evil demons...


> Also, for smart links, Do you need a scope to use them at long
> distance properly? For example, Street Sami. has a smartlink I or II
> and a sniper rifle with the same. There is a target he can barley see at
> about 500,600 meters. Does he need a scope to still hit it or just the
> SM? What about if it was a Light Pistol at about 100 meters?

If the target is within the weapon's maximum range, you don't
need any accessories to attack it, but they help a lot. 600 meters is
less than the maximum range of a sniper rifle, if I remember it right,
so you could try to hit the target. A scope would be very useful here,
but it's not obligatory.

As for the pistol, it's maximum listed range in the book is 50
meters, so you won't be able to hit (or damage) anything beyond this
range, no matter what accessories you use. If you don't like this, you
can alter the basic ranges listed in the rules (of course, if you're not
the GM, talk to him about it :) ).


Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.cjb.net
ICQ#4055455
Message no. 16
From: Matthew Resnick elwoodresnick@*****.com
Subject: Magic And Tech
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:24:14 -0800 (PST)
> Does any one know what magical tradition would try to bring
about an
>evil demon like satan to the world. I am planning a run where the
PC's
>would have to stop such a ritual. So far I am torn between the Black
>Magic, and may be a curropted version of Christian tradition (i.e.
>Satanism?).

Check out the Mage supplement "Dead Magic" and take a gander at the
description of Babylonian magic. I've been considering something kinda
sorta like this as well.

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Message no. 17
From: Damion Milliken dam01@***.edu.au
Subject: Magic and Tech.
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:04:08 +1100 (EST)
Neon Samuria writes:

> Does any one know what magical tradition would try to bring about an evil
> demon like satan to the world. I am planning a run where the PC's would
> have to stop such a ritual. So far I am torn between the Black Magic, and
> may be a curropted version of Christian tradition (i.e. Satanism?).

Aztlan blood mages summoning a horror is always a good one (a bit cliche
now, but if your players aren't too shadowrun knowledgable it's quite good).

Have you (or they) read the DragonHeart trilogy? Or do you have access to
Harlequin's Back? Or the Aztlan sourcebook? These are all potentially good
sources of ideas or statistics from which to steal plot ideas of this nature.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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