Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject:	Magic and Technology
Date:	Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:17:33 EDT

Message no. 1 I'd like to have your opinions on the integration of magic and technology,
where both complement and enhance each other or work together in tandem?

Mike

From:	Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:55:38 +0000

Message no. 2 AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM> once wrote,

> I'd like to have your opinions on the integration of magic and technology,
> where both complement and enhance each other or work together in tandem?
>
> Mike

Some examples of Magic/Tech integration already exist in 2058.
Cybermancy, for one, although it's indirectly that they mix. Otakus,
followers of the Great Resonnance. Security Mages, who use
fiber-optic networks to scan whole buildings. FAT bacterias,
including the nastier Strain III. But those things are pretty much
mundane (excuse the pun) compared to what Magic and Tech could be.

Now, I've mentionned this before, but is Magic prevalent enough in
2058 to allow a more deep mingling with Technology?
Would I like to see more magic in SR? Sure. Would I like to see
Mana engines, Arcane communicators and Hellblast guns? Sure. Will it
happen? Depends on where FASA is willing to take the game. Will
there be a sudden spike in the Mana curve, that will permit a more
widespread use of magic? Will we see most of the human population
become magically active (a la Earthdawn adepts)? Will we survive
this (considering what awaits the human race at the other side of
that chasm, if you get my drift)?

But more importantly...Can they mix? The applications we see in 2058
are pretty much indirect interaction between these two realms. We
have yet to see some kind of real tech/magic application. IMHO,
Magic and Tech should not directly mix. Not now. Magic has yet to
reach the enormous amount of power modern tech can (Great Ghost dance
aside, of couse). And of course, it can't function without a human
brain at the helm. Only when magic will be able to function without
the direct involvment of a mage, will it be considered a powerful
element of society, on par with more mundane tools. And only then,
IMHO, will it be able to interract directly with Tech.

Trinity
----------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca

"Life is a blur"

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:15:08 -0600

Message no. 3 AirWisp wrote:
|
| I'd like to have your opinions on the integration of magic and technology,
| where both complement and enhance each other or work together in tandem?

Magic can create energy (manipulation spells). Quicken or Anchor it
to power a generator.

Magic Fingers could have lots of applications in medicine and
laboratories.

...The list could go on and on. It all depends on how creative and/or
inventive someone can be.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

From:	Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:28:05 -0400

Message no. 4 Dave wrote:

>AirWisp wrote:
>|
>| I'd like to have your opinions on the integration of magic and
technology,
>| where both complement and enhance each other or work together in tandem?
>
>Magic can create energy (manipulation spells). Quicken or Anchor it
>to power a generator.
>

If you liked that, you're going to love this...

Summon a Force 1 or 2 Great Form Water Elemental, then take another astral
quest to go find its True Name. Then stuff him in a closed recirculating
hydroelectric dam and order it to swim in circles for all eternity. All you
have to worry about is an eco-terrorist banishing the thing, or the mage who
controls it cacking without passing on the True Name.

[ snip ]

>...The list could go on and on. It all depends on how creative and/or
>inventive someone can be.
>

Or sadistic...

however, since magic is so rare, and so many don't understand it, and often
flat out fear it, I doubt it will be more than speculation or very narrowly
applied for another one hundred years.

From:	Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:35:21 +0200

Message no. 5 Airwisp wrote:
> I'd like to have your opinions on the integration of magic and technology,
> where both complement and enhance each other or work together in tandem?

One of the interesting aspects of this is barriers. Since they are not harmed
by heat nor ever worn down by minor stress (major stress is something else)
they would be quite useful in manipulating plasma without heat leakage.

Another option would be for manipulating extremely hot materials.
(How do you forge a material that is so hot that whatever it touches melts?
That's currently the problem with some types of very interesting materials).

In magic there is solutions to some of these problems, which could give huge
reductions in power loss from power plants, extremely potent armor, and
new and exiting ways to kill people... Possibly making new energy sources
possible too. (Fusion plants?).

(quasithinking:)
I think industrial usage of magic might have nasty side effects. Perhaps the
barrier between the planes is weakened by pouring vast amounts of power
through, or something like that. (Karma hazing, perhaps, or other fun side
effects...).

From:	Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:14:04 -0400

Message no. 6 On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, AirWisp wrote:

> I'd like to have your opinions on the integration of magic and technology,
> where both complement and enhance each other or work together in tandem?
>
> Mike
>
Achchored spells...First, design a variation of the spark spell that
creates enough electrical current to power a normal appliance (Computer,
Trid, Car Battery...). Next, anchor the spell to whatever applaince you
would like powered, and using temporal links it should be possible to use
this spell to power an appliance for hundreds of days (256 days IIRC).
The normal spark spell can also be used to trip circuits. For example, a
mage with a good explosives or electronics B/R could rig a bomb that uses
a spark spell that triggers the bomb, with the spark spell linked to a
detection spell of some sort. Time delay links are also possible as are
any other number of links...just be creative. This is just the
beginning...

From:	Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:16:13 -0800

Message no. 7 At 13:15 10/21/97 -0600, David Buehrer wrote:
>AirWisp wrote:
>| I'd like to have your opinions on the integration of magic and technology,
>| where both complement and enhance each other or work together in tandem?

>Magic can create energy (manipulation spells). Quicken or Anchor it
>to power a generator.

In my campaign, I've specified that a Gaeatronics lab did just that:
created a spell that maintained a constant voltage across a pair of contacts
and Quickened it. They discovered that the more load they ran off the thing,
the more energy it drained from Astral Space; the lab reached a background
count of 8 before they managed to shut the thing down. That little
alternative energy research project got shut down.

(Since no one in my campaign is on the list, I can tell you the next
stage of research: figuring out a way to make fusion power "cleaner".
Gaeatronics have already managed to invent an Anti-Radiation Barrier
spell that slows down alpha and beta particles and degrades gamma
rays to infrared light. They're a bit stuck, though, on inventing the
"accelerate radioactive decay" spell that will allow them to dispose
of dangerous radioactive materials in years rather than millennia, so
they're going to be hiring the PC group, which happens to also be
veterans of Astral Quests, to help discover that crucial bit of magic
theory...)

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%

From:	Rick St Jean <Platinum@*****.CA>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:45:35 -0400

Message no. 8 Frank Pelletier wrote:
>
> AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM> once wrote,
>
> > I'd like to have your opinions on the integration of magic and technology,
> > where both complement and enhance each other or work together in tandem?
> >
> > Mike
>
> Some examples of Magic/Tech integration already exist in 2058.
> Cybermancy, for one, although it's indirectly that they mix. Otakus,
> followers of the Great Resonnance. Security Mages, who use
> fiber-optic networks to scan whole buildings. FAT bacterias,
> including the nastier Strain III. But those things are pretty much
> mundane (excuse the pun) compared to what Magic and Tech could be.
>
> Now, I've mentionned this before, but is Magic prevalent enough in
> 2058 to allow a more deep mingling with Technology?
> Would I like to see more magic in SR? Sure. Would I like to see
> Mana engines, Arcane communicators and Hellblast guns? Sure. Will it
> happen? Depends on where FASA is willing to take the game. Will
> there be a sudden spike in the Mana curve, that will permit a more
> widespread use of magic? Will we see most of the human population
> become magically active (a la Earthdawn adepts)? Will we survive
> this (considering what awaits the human race at the other side of
> that chasm, if you get my drift)?
>
> But more importantly...Can they mix? The applications we see in 2058
> are pretty much indirect interaction between these two realms. We
> have yet to see some kind of real tech/magic application. IMHO,
> Magic and Tech should not directly mix. Not now. Magic has yet to
> reach the enormous amount of power modern tech can (Great Ghost dance
> aside, of couse). And of course, it can't function without a human
> brain at the helm. Only when magic will be able to function without
> the direct involvment of a mage, will it be considered a powerful
> element of society, on par with more mundane tools. And only then,
> IMHO, will it be able to interract directly with Tech.
>

I'm one of my compaigns i have a technomacncer who conbines magic and
technology. It is purely a NPC thing. one reasone is that his
enventions are so karma and time intensive. also i can control the
balance of the inventions. [but he doesn't have anything to do with the
matrix.] his interactions are purely on the mundane world.

I wonder will FASA bring out other adepts in SR3. and what happens if
a sam enters a magic level that the genes awaken... either magic or
racial. Anyone have any karma costs for buying a magic attribute?. I
mean if you're letting mages take over the matrix... why not let the
sam's start taking on mage territory?

Another questionaire from the Library of:
Platinum

From:	adonis <adonis@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:30:01 -0400

Message no. 9 > I'd like to have your opinions on the integration of magic and
technology,
> where both complement and enhance each other or work together in tandem?
>
In our senario, we have a melding of magic and tech called "System 2".
it's sort of a modification of cybermancy, but without the necrophile
aspects.

We also have a process called "attunement" which is the tech version of
initiating. It makes playing mundanes more realistic in our magic
saturated city...

SOOiCydE

From:	Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:28:43 -0400

Message no. 10 > I wonder will FASA bring out other adepts in SR3. and what happens if
> a sam enters a magic level that the genes awaken... either magic or
> racial. Anyone have any karma costs for buying a magic attribute?. I
> mean if you're letting mages take over the matrix... why not let the
> sam's start taking on mage territory?
>
> Another questionaire from the Library of:
> Platinum
>
Letting mages take over the matrix? Is this supposed to be some reference
to the magical deckers? I hardly think a mage with a datajack is a threat
to Captain Chaos, FastJack and the other deckers out there that
practically run the place.

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:06:28 -0400

Message no. 11 In a message dated 97-10-21 14:58:57 EDT, jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA writes:

>
> But more importantly...Can they mix? The applications we see in 2058
> are pretty much indirect interaction between these two realms. We
> have yet to see some kind of real tech/magic application. IMHO,
> Magic and Tech should not directly mix. Not now. Magic has yet to
> reach the enormous amount of power modern tech can (Great Ghost dance
> aside, of couse). And of course, it can't function without a human
> brain at the helm. Only when magic will be able to function without
> the direct involvment of a mage, will it be considered a powerful
> element of society, on par with more mundane tools. And only then,
> IMHO, will it be able to interract directly with Tech.

This looks like a good spot to jump in. Has it occured to anyone playing the
game that mana level is already higher than it should be? The GGD is the
principle reason for such. And it hasn't gone down any, in fact, it's gone
farther.

-K

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:26:34 -0400

Message no. 12 In a message dated 97-10-21 17:03:08 EDT, slothman@*********.ORG (Max Rible)
writes:

>
> (Since no one in my campaign is on the list, I can tell you the next
> stage of research: figuring out a way to make fusion power "cleaner".
> Gaeatronics have already managed to invent an Anti-Radiation Barrier
> spell that slows down alpha and beta particles and degrades gamma
> rays to infrared light. They're a bit stuck, though, on inventing the
> "accelerate radioactive decay" spell that will allow them to dispose
> of dangerous radioactive materials in years rather than millennia, so
> they're going to be hiring the PC group, which happens to also be
> veterans of Astral Quests, to help discover that crucial bit of magic
> theory...)
>
Okay Max, how is then. A gamer in the group here a long time ago (a Moon
Shamanic Druid), came up with "Transform Radioactive Material to Gold". He
approached it from the chart of elements point of view. Uranium wasn't that
far from gold. Combine it with your barrier spell (limit the spell to only
come up around radioactive material, a "reverse personalized" point of view).
And whalah!!! Not only do they get to deal with the stuff, they can turn a
profit at the same time.

-K

From:	Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:02:14 +0000

Message no. 13 "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM> once wrote,

(snip)
> This looks like a good spot to jump in. Has it occured to anyone playing the
> game that mana level is already higher than it should be? The GGD is the
> principle reason for such. And it hasn't gone down any, in fact, it's gone
> farther.
>
> -K

Hmm....I think a Spoiler "saferoom" is in order...

T

H

I

S

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I

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A

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Okay.... We all know the GGD augmented the mana curve quite a bit,
and this from official FASA sources (Harlequin's back, Threats,
Aztlan, some novels, etc.). And we all know (although Mike Mulvihill
seems to want to downplay this part) that Horrors were damn close
from crosing back into this plane (and they still are). My question
is... Why haven't we seen more of this Magic in gameplay and/or
novels? Magic was way more prevalent in Earthdawn when the Horrors
came back. Why can't we see this in SR products? If the GGD
accelerated things, it must go both ways, not only the negative side,
but also the positive effects. But we haven't seen anything remotly
"powerful" or, at least, close to ED levels...

Trinity
--------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca

"Life is a blur"

From:	Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:08:35 -0400

Message no. 14 > "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM> once wrote,
>
> (snip)
> > This looks like a good spot to jump in. Has it occured to anyone playing the
> > game that mana level is already higher than it should be? The GGD is the
> > principle reason for such. And it hasn't gone down any, in fact, it's gone
> > farther.
> >
> > -K
>
> Hmm....I think a Spoiler "saferoom" is in order...

I think even more spoiler room is in order...

M

O

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P

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R

R

O

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M

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> Okay.... We all know the GGD augmented the mana curve quite a bit,
> and this from official FASA sources (Harlequin's back, Threats,
> Aztlan, some novels, etc.). And we all know (although Mike Mulvihill
> seems to want to downplay this part) that Horrors were damn close
> from crosing back into this plane (and they still are). My question
> is... Why haven't we seen more of this Magic in gameplay and/or
> novels? Magic was way more prevalent in Earthdawn when the Horrors
> came back. Why can't we see this in SR products? If the GGD
> accelerated things, it must go both ways, not only the negative side,
> but also the positive effects. But we haven't seen anything remotly
> "powerful" or, at least, close to ED levels...
>
Well...First, there's blood magic which, when used properly, can be pretty
damned powerful. Secondly, the mana spikes created by the GGD, the
creation of the Veil around Tir Na NoG, the eruption of the volcanos in
Germany, the uprising in Hawaii, every bit of cybermancy and every blood
magic ritual performed did not raise the overall mana levels. This is why
the Elders (at least H. and Aina) are so concerned about the Horrors. If
the overall mana levels were higher, then Earth would stand a much better
chance of surviving the onslaught of the Enemy. As they are not, then the
gradual progression of magic is not improper.
Of course, it is obvious that the Elders understand and can use much more
powerful magic than the rest of the sixth world. As well, there are people
like Infinity and Omega who know what's up...
Finally, as Theran artifacts begin to trickle in, new theories of magic
should emerge. as well, who knows what sort of concontions the merger of
fourth world magic and technology may have?
One more thing for you to think about...who taught Daniel Howling Coyote
how to do the GGD?...Where did blood magic come from?...And
cybermancy?...And what effect are these things all having on the sixth
world?

From:	Rick St Jean <Platinum@*****.CA>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:12:42 -0400

Message no. 15 Jeremiah Stevens wrote:

> One more thing for you to think about...who taught Daniel Howling Coyote

> how to do the GGD?...
Duh... Coyote.
Where did blood magic come from?...
ther are roots in Voodoo.... maybe one of the serpents leaked it.
Mages recognizing the power of death and blood... research... anchient
mayan textx...... etc
And
> cybermancy?...And what effect are these things all having on the sixth
> world?
Fear.... be afraid be very afraid....
actually the hellions really freaked me out when i read about them.

Another Chapter from the library of:
Platinum

From:	Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 01:04:05 -0400

Message no. 16 On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Rick St Jean wrote:

> Jeremiah Stevens wrote:
>
> > One more thing for you to think about...who taught Daniel Howling Coyote
>
> > how to do the GGD?...
> Duh... Coyote.
No. The GGD was blood magic. The original Ghost Dance in the 19th century
was also a feeble attempt at blood magic. There is something much more
sinister going on here...Just think about everything being connected.

From:	Rick St Jean <Platinum@*****.CA>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 01:24:41 -0400

Message no. 17 Jeremiah Stevens wrote:
>
> On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Rick St Jean wrote:
>
> > Jeremiah Stevens wrote:
> >
> > > One more thing for you to think about...who taught Daniel Howling Coyote
> >
> > > how to do the GGD?...
> > Duh... Coyote.
> No. The GGD was blood magic. The original Ghost Dance in the 19th century
> was also a feeble attempt at blood magic. There is something much more
> sinister going on here...Just think about everything being connected.

so why would the spirits be averted to seeing fleshies die for the sake
of more magic. especially if they are willing to sacrifice themselves?
there is nothin sinister its simply magic. :)

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:12:20 +0100

Message no. 18 And verily, did Jeremiah Stevens hastily scribble thusly...
|
|> "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM> once wrote,
|>
|> (snip)
|> > This looks like a good spot to jump in. Has it occured to anyone playing the
|> > game that mana level is already higher than it should be? The GGD is the
|> > principle reason for such. And it hasn't gone down any, in fact, it's gone
|> > farther.
|> >
|> > -K
|>
|> Hmm....I think a Spoiler "saferoom" is in order...
|
|I think even more spoiler room is in order...
|
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|> Okay.... We all know the GGD augmented the mana curve quite a bit,
|> and this from official FASA sources (Harlequin's back, Threats,
|> Aztlan, some novels, etc.). And we all know (although Mike Mulvihill
|> seems to want to downplay this part) that Horrors were damn close
|> from crosing back into this plane (and they still are). My question
|> is... Why haven't we seen more of this Magic in gameplay and/or
|> novels? Magic was way more prevalent in Earthdawn when the Horrors
|> came back. Why can't we see this in SR products? If the GGD
|> accelerated things, it must go both ways, not only the negative side,
|> but also the positive effects. But we haven't seen anything remotly
|> "powerful" or, at least, close to ED levels...
|>
|Well...First, there's blood magic which, when used properly, can be pretty
|damned powerful. Secondly, the mana spikes created by the GGD, the
|creation of the Veil around Tir Na NoG, the eruption of the volcanos in
|Germany, the uprising in Hawaii, every bit of cybermancy and every blood
|magic ritual performed did not raise the overall mana levels. This is why
|the Elders (at least H. and Aina) are so concerned about the Horrors. If
|the overall mana levels were higher, then Earth would stand a much better
|chance of surviving the onslaught of the Enemy. As they are not, then the
|gradual progression of magic is not improper.

Ahhhh, but you're only taking into account the Mana curve.
You are totally FAILING to take into account the Technology curve.

Just 'cos the magic's more powerfull, doesn't mean much if the people don't
know how to use it...

The people of Barsaive had hundreds of years to prepare.
The people of Shadowrun had less than 50...

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:15:25 -0400

Message no. 19 Spike once dared to write,

>Ahhhh, but you're only taking into account the Mana curve.
>You are totally FAILING to take into account the Technology curve.
>
>Just 'cos the magic's more powerfull, doesn't mean much if the people don't
>know how to use it...
>
>The people of Barsaive had hundreds of years to prepare.
>The people of Shadowrun had less than 50...

And also the magic is in part formed by belief. Even the immortal
elves who tried to direct this belief does not have absolute control over
how magic works. I would even be so blasphemous to say that because of
this they can't even predict how magic completely works in the 6th world
and still believe in outdated principles that no longer apply and better
yet no longer work.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:21:39 -0400

Message no. 20 On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Spike wrote:

> And verily, did Jeremiah Stevens hastily scribble thusly...
> |
> |> "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM> once wrote,
> |>
> |> (snip)
> |> > This looks like a good spot to jump in. Has it occured to anyone playing
the
> |> > game that mana level is already higher than it should be? The GGD is the
> |> > principle reason for such. And it hasn't gone down any, in fact, it's
gone
> |> > farther.
> |> >
> |> > -K
> |>
> |> Hmm....I think a Spoiler "saferoom" is in order...
> |
> |I think even more spoiler room is in order...
> |
> |M
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> |O
> |
> |O
> |
> |M
> |
> |> T
> |>
> |> H
> |>
> |> I
> |>
> |> S
> |>
> |> -
> |>
> |> I
> |>
> |> S
> |>
> |> -
> |>
> |> A
> |>
> |> -
> |>
> |> S
> |>
> |> P
> |>
> |> O
> |>
> |> I
> |>
> |> L
> |>
> |> E
> |>
> |> R
> |>
> |> Okay.... We all know the GGD augmented the mana curve quite a bit,
> |> and this from official FASA sources (Harlequin's back, Threats,
> |> Aztlan, some novels, etc.). And we all know (although Mike Mulvihill
> |> seems to want to downplay this part) that Horrors were damn close
> |> from crosing back into this plane (and they still are). My question
> |> is... Why haven't we seen more of this Magic in gameplay and/or
> |> novels? Magic was way more prevalent in Earthdawn when the Horrors
> |> came back. Why can't we see this in SR products? If the GGD
> |> accelerated things, it must go both ways, not only the negative side,
> |> but also the positive effects. But we haven't seen anything remotly
> |> "powerful" or, at least, close to ED levels...
> |>
> |Well...First, there's blood magic which, when used properly, can be pretty
> |damned powerful. Secondly, the mana spikes created by the GGD, the
> |creation of the Veil around Tir Na NoG, the eruption of the volcanos in
> |Germany, the uprising in Hawaii, every bit of cybermancy and every blood
> |magic ritual performed did not raise the overall mana levels. This is why
> |the Elders (at least H. and Aina) are so concerned about the Horrors. If
> |the overall mana levels were higher, then Earth would stand a much better
> |chance of surviving the onslaught of the Enemy. As they are not, then the
> |gradual progression of magic is not improper.
>
> Ahhhh, but you're only taking into account the Mana curve.
> You are totally FAILING to take into account the Technology curve.
>
> Just 'cos the magic's more powerfull, doesn't mean much if the people don't
> know how to use it...
>
> The people of Barsaive had hundreds of years to prepare.
> The people of Shadowrun had less than 50...
However, I believe the sixth world is on the edge of discovering new
magic. For example, we know that spirits have 'true names' which are
essentially their astral patterns. One who knows this pattern has
tremendous power over that spirit, including the ability to banish it
permanently. Now, given what we know about cyberware and bioware resulting
in essence loss, it is quite possible that (meta)humans have these true
patterns as well. All someone would need to do is undertake an astral
quest to learn the true pattern of another person.

From:	Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:24:05 -0400

Message no. 21 On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Rick St Jean wrote:

> Jeremiah Stevens wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Rick St Jean wrote:
> >
> > > Jeremiah Stevens wrote:
> > >
> > > > One more thing for you to think about...who taught Daniel Howling
Coyote
> > >
> > > > how to do the GGD?...
> > > Duh... Coyote.
> > No. The GGD was blood magic. The original Ghost Dance in the 19th century
> > was also a feeble attempt at blood magic. There is something much more
> > sinister going on here...Just think about everything being connected.
>
> so why would the spirits be averted to seeing fleshies die for the sake
> of more magic. especially if they are willing to sacrifice themselves?
> there is nothin sinister its simply magic. :)
>
It is not simply magic. It is massivly powerful blood magic which causes
mana spikes large enough to speed up the arrival of the Horrors by many
thousands of years.

From:	Rick St Jean <Platinum@*****.CA>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:46:17 -0400

Message no. 22 >
> Spike once dared to write,
>
> >Ahhhh, but you're only taking into account the Mana curve.
> >You are totally FAILING to take into account the Technology curve.
> >
> >Just 'cos the magic's more powerfull, doesn't mean much if the people don't
> >know how to use it...
> >
> >The people of Barsaive had hundreds of years to prepare.
> >The people of Shadowrun had less than 50...
>
the difference is technology. they have greater resources... a global
village where people can collaborate across the world. They have texts
and volumes. and scrolls from ancheint times which will just make sense
now. may point is the amount they could learn in 50 will probably be
equivelent to what they learned in 500.why ... because of technology and
advanced methodologies. (oooh. I like that word)

Another tidbit from the library of:
Platinum

From:	Rick St Jean <Platinum@*****.CA>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:53:28 -0400

Message no. 23 Jeremiah Stevens wrote:
>
> On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Rick St Jean wrote:
>
> > Jeremiah Stevens wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Rick St Jean wrote:
> > >
> > > > Jeremiah Stevens wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > One more thing for you to think about...who taught Daniel Howling
Coyote
> > > >
> > > > > how to do the GGD?...
> > > > Duh... Coyote.
> > > No. The GGD was blood magic. The original Ghost Dance in the 19th century
> > > was also a feeble attempt at blood magic. There is something much more
> > > sinister going on here...Just think about everything being connected.
> >
> > so why would the spirits be averted to seeing fleshies die for the sake
> > of more magic. especially if they are willing to sacrifice themselves?
> > there is nothin sinister its simply magic. :)
> >
> It is not simply magic. It is massivly powerful blood magic which causes
> mana spikes large enough to speed up the arrival of the Horrors by many
> thousands of years.

but who know's what will happen. maybe the horrors will come and the
6th world might be able to repel them. You now have a ware of the
worlds type thing now but it may unite the <meta>races. Maybe people
find technological answers to the Horror problem. Maybe cyberware is
spart of the answer. maybe the horrors will no longer bother the sam...
so he can hunt them with no difficulty.

But I still think that the ghost dance was a freedom ritual.. not some
plot of a horror to raise the mana level. so now you would have IE's,
Dragons and horrors directing the course of the world. sound like the
end of season 2 for babalon 5.

Another arguement from the library of:
Platinum

From:	Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:14:03 -0400

Message no. 24 > so now you would have IE's, Dragons and horrors directing the course of the world.
sound like the
> end of season 2 for babalon 5.
>
> Another arguement from the library of:
> Platinum
>
Yup. That sounds about right.

From:	Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:40:58 -0800

Message no. 25 At 22:26 10/21/97 -0400, J. Keith Henry wrote:
>Okay Max, how is then. A gamer in the group here a long time ago (a Moon
>Shamanic Druid), came up with "Transform Radioactive Material to Gold". He
>approached it from the chart of elements point of view. Uranium wasn't that
>far from gold. Combine it with your barrier spell (limit the spell to only
>come up around radioactive material, a "reverse personalized" point of
view).
> And whalah!!! Not only do they get to deal with the stuff, they can turn a
>profit at the same time.

Well, (a) I would put harsh limits on bulk transmutation of elements (since
it would do terrifying things to the economy) and (b) an "accelerate
radioactive
decay" spell would also help with radioactive carbon, iodine, barium, krypton,
and so on. Your problem in this case isn't disposing of fissionable
materials,
though it would be a good thing to have for disarmament purposes. Your
problem
is dealing with the casings of fusion reactors that have been under neutron
bombardment for some time, and have become highly radioactive, even though
they're nowhere near uranium on the periodic table...

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%

From:	Ray & Tamara <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:55:59 +1000

Message no. 26 > > Jeremiah Stevens wrote:
> >
> > > One more thing for you to think about...who taught Daniel Howling
Coyote
> >
> > > how to do the GGD?...
> > Duh... Coyote.
> No. The GGD was blood magic. The original Ghost Dance in the 19th century
> was also a feeble attempt at blood magic. There is something much more
> sinister going on here...Just think about everything being connected.

Actually, if you can believe Worlds without Ends....

Spoiler

then it was Aina's son. It was also Blood Magic or sorts, but they learnt it
from an IE (a weird mutant one, but an IE none the less).

NightRain.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au

From:	Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:38:59 PDT

Message no. 27 >> On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Rick St Jean wrote:
>>
>> > Jeremiah Stevens wrote:
>> >
>> > > One more thing for you to think about...who taught Daniel Howling
Coyote
>> >
>> > > how to do the GGD?...
>> > Duh... Coyote.
>> No. The GGD was blood magic. The original Ghost Dance in the 19th
century
>> was also a feeble attempt at blood magic. There is something much
more
>> sinister going on here...Just think about everything being connected.

a fairly non-crucial spoiler
b
c
d
e
f
g
h
i
j
k
l
m
n
o
p
q
r
s
t
u
v
w
x
y
z

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0

My bet fora source of"evil" magic knowledge wouldbe minions of
Vergigorm. That may seem over the top, but reading Verjigorms profile,
a few things are evident:

A)He never apeared in the fourth world
B)He spent the second world Hunting an "coocooning" dragons
C)he wants to be god, ie remake the world intoaHorrificplace
D)he's pissed he can't spend the "odd" worlds with his tasty name giver
buddies.

So, He's spent thousands of years researching how to use a packof
dragons as his own personal magic source / bridge. Can you say big blood
juju?
He's got an interest in getting here the firstest with the mostest
and spreading suffering.
And, who a better agent for the hunter of dragons than Mr. Drake,
er, Darke.

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psycotic - Einstien

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:45:59 -0400

Message no. 28 In a message dated 97-10-22 00:09:54 EDT, jeremiah@********.EDU writes:

> > > This looks like a good spot to jump in. Has it occured to anyone
playing
> the
> > > game that mana level is already higher than it should be? The GGD is

> the
> > > principle reason for such. And it hasn't gone down any, in fact, it's

> gone
> > > farther.
> > >
> > > -K
> >
> > Hmm....I think a Spoiler "saferoom" is in order...
>
> I think even more spoiler room is in order...
>
Well I'm not sure it does, this isn't spoiling anything for anyone that I'm
aware of at this point, and I own every book put out in America....however,
out of a bit of niceness....

I will say that mana curve and the "elders" are also more directly related
than anyone, especially those same said elders, are willing to admit to. In
the Harlequin, both Harley and Ehran did a "vanishing" act. That act in and
unto itself, uses far stronger magic than the "average initiated magician"
can perform. Or at least knows how to perform in the very least. I have
also thought of something, has anyone considered the principle of "Energy
Reflection?" with regards to the mana curve thing? What if, you had a given
'distance' the energy had to reach. Lets say, for arguments sake, that
distance was "11 points" (a non-sequitorial unit of measurement).

Now the GGD has a spike of say, 30 points. That means a bridge that is 30
points close to the 100 point requirement is created. Maybe a peninsula or
"mooring point" would be a better description. As time goes on, lets say
every decade or so, a -base point- is added to the shore line. That would
mean that after 1000 years (100 decades), the shorelines of both sides would
meet directly. So, on that theory, with the idea that the GGD is a 30 point
spike, then the "mooring point" that Thayla is sitting upon currently is
about 35 - 36 points closer to "the Enemy", this being the 4-5 full decade.

Add to that the actions of beings like Darke and Sam's second GGD, there
could be "points" where junctiosn or "leaps" could be performed. I
believe
you get the idea.

-K

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:55:17 -0400

Message no. 29 In a message dated 97-10-22 00:52:42 EDT, adonis@******.COM (adonis) writes:

>
> In our senario, we have a melding of magic and tech called "System 2".
> it's sort of a modification of cybermancy, but without the necrophile
> aspects.

Sounds familiar, the Enchanter of mine looked into things LONG before FASA
ever came out with Cybermancy as far as means to "put more into the flesh"
without detriment to the spirit. His way was a bit more odd, he tried to
make the items in question more 'spiritually friendly'. We called it Aura
Synchronization and Metasymbiosis.

> We also have a process called "attunement" which is the tech version of
> initiating. It makes playing mundanes more realistic in our magic
> saturated city...

Hey Mike, if you read this, perhaps you should consider an outline of "the
Mechanics" for the guy. He'd probably like it.

-K

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:02:06 -0400

Message no. 30 In a message dated 97-10-22 01:04:53 EDT, jeremiah@********.EDU writes:

> > > One more thing for you to think about...who taught Daniel Howling
Coyote
> >
> > > how to do the GGD?...
> > Duh... Coyote.

Actually, that's more likely Thais' fault (and no, I won't mention who he is,
where he is, why he is....)

> No. The GGD was blood magic. The original Ghost Dance in the 19th century
> was also a feeble attempt at blood magic. There is something much more
> sinister going on here...Just think about everything being connected.

Connected...interested. In a way that is what the topic is
about...connection. Now why is that bad guys seem to be able to do it, but
eh GM's won't let the character's give it a whirl????

-K

From:	Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:15:46 -0400

Message no. 31 On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Ray & Tamara wrote:

> > > Jeremiah Stevens wrote:
> > >
> > > > One more thing for you to think about...who taught Daniel Howling
> Coyote
> > >
> > > > how to do the GGD?...
> > > Duh... Coyote.
> > No. The GGD was blood magic. The original Ghost Dance in the 19th century
> > was also a feeble attempt at blood magic. There is something much more
> > sinister going on here...Just think about everything being connected.
>
> Actually, if you can believe Worlds without Ends....
>
> Spoiler
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> then it was Aina's son. It was also Blood Magic or sorts, but they learnt it
> from an IE (a weird mutant one, but an IE none the less).
>
> NightRain.

Theis, IIRC, who was fathered by Ysgereth (sp?), who was a Horror.
(I read the book, I just did not want to give it all away.)

From:	Benjamin <benjamin@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:22:48 PDT

Message no. 32 S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

>but who know's what will happen. maybe the horrors will come and the
>6th world might be able to repel them. You now have a ware of the
>worlds type thing now but it may unite the <meta>races. Maybe people
>find technological answers to the Horror problem. Maybe cyberware is
>spart of the answer. maybe the horrors will no longer bother the sam...
>so he can hunt them with no difficulty.

Yeah. And Cyberzombies are either going to be the best possible
anti-horror weapons, or the worst possible anti horro weapons.

From:	Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:23:21 -0400

Message no. 33 On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Benjamin wrote:

> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
>
>
>
> >but who know's what will happen. maybe the horrors will come and the
> >6th world might be able to repel them. You now have a ware of the
> >worlds type thing now but it may unite the <meta>races. Maybe people
> >find technological answers to the Horror problem. Maybe cyberware is
> >spart of the answer. maybe the horrors will no longer bother the sam...
> >so he can hunt them with no difficulty.
>
> Yeah. And Cyberzombies are either going to be the best possible
> anti-horror weapons, or the worst possible anti horro weapons.
>
Of course, the magic used to create cyberzobies is contributing to the
mana spike which makes the Horrors a threat.
Still, your idea is an interesting one. Perhaps the people who taught the
art of cybermancy realized the hopelessness of the situation, and realized
that the Horrors would be coming through far too soon regardless of the
efforts of Harlequin, Aina and Dunkelzahn Thus, while cybermancy is a form
of corrupt magic, it still offers humanity their best hope, and given the
rising mana levels and increasing technology, there may be other
combinations of magic and technology previously undreamt of.
Also consider this: Dunkelzahn, Harlequin and Ehran all seem to be
fascinated with modern technology, and seem to think it a good thing. For
three of the most magically active being to be this interested in
something supposedly antithetical to magic seems a little odd, ney?

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:26:16 -0400

Message no. 34 In a message dated 97-10-22 09:16:52 EDT, mc23@**********.COM writes:

> And also the magic is in part formed by belief. Even the immortal
> elves who tried to direct this belief does not have absolute control over
> how magic works. I would even be so blasphemous to say that because of
> this they can't even predict how magic completely works in the 6th world
> and still believe in outdated principles that no longer apply and better
> yet no longer work.
>
And this is something that I tried to point out a while ago. Though yes,
after I found a copy of the book and skimmed through it, ED did have
"shamanic spirits" of a sort. But Shadowrun has a hell of lot more flavor in
them. And that wouldn't even qualify for the Loa or other similar beings.

I actually think that the IE's are behind to much for their own survival
benefit. They have limited their own thinking and those they are
manipulating. Sort of the "click" argument again.

-K

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:29:12 -0400

Message no. 35 In a message dated 97-10-22 09:22:23 EDT, jeremiah@********.EDU writes:

> On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Spike wrote:
> > And verily, did Jeremiah Stevens hastily scribble thusly...
> > |> "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM> once wrote,
> > |> (snip)
> > |> > This looks like a good spot to jump in. Has it occured to anyone
> playing the
> > |> > game that mana level is already higher than it should be? The GGD

> is the
> > |> > principle reason for such. And it hasn't gone down any, in fact,
it'
> s gone
> > |> > farther.
> > |> >
> > |> > -K
> > |>
> > |> Hmm....I think a Spoiler "saferoom" is in order...
> > |
> > |I think even more spoiler room is in order...
> > |
> > |M
> > |
> > |O
> > |
> > |R
> > |
> > |E
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |S
> > |
> > |P
> > |
> > |O
> > |
> > |I
> > |
> > |L
> > |
> > |E
> > |
> > |R
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |
> > |R
> > |
> > |O
> > |
> > |O
> > |
> > |M
> > |
> > |> T
> > |>
> > |> H
> > |>
> > |> I
> > |>
> > |> S
> > |>
> > |> -
> > |>
> > |> I
> > |>
> > |> S
> > |>
> > |> -
> > |>
> > |> A
> > |>
> > |> -
> > |>
> > |> S
> > |>
> > |> P
> > |>
> > |> O
> > |>
> > |> I
> > |>
> > |> L
> > |>
> > |> E
> > |>
> > |> R
> > |>

(snipped stuff from some of the guys, but left in Spike's remark)

> However, I believe the sixth world is on the edge of discovering new
> magic. For example, we know that spirits have 'true names' which are
> essentially their astral patterns. One who knows this pattern has
> tremendous power over that spirit, including the ability to banish it
> permanently. Now, given what we know about cyberware and bioware resulting
> in essence loss, it is quite possible that (meta)humans have these true
> patterns as well. All someone would need to do is undertake an astral
> quest to learn the true pattern of another person.

OH MY GOD!!!! Someone else has made this leap. We did this so long ago,
Second Edition wasn't even out yet. And we didn't even extrapolate from
other rpgs to do it. Had more to do with goofy shamanic books at the
mall....

-K

From:	Benjamin <benjamin@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:47:42 PDT

Message no. 36 > S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
>
>
>

>Of course, the magic used to create cyberzobies is contributing to the
>mana spike which makes the Horrors a threat.
>Still, your idea is an interesting one. Perhaps the people who taught the
>art of cybermancy realized the hopelessness of the situation, and realized
>that the Horrors would be coming through far too soon regardless of the
>efforts of Harlequin, Aina and Dunkelzahn Thus, while cybermancy is a form
>of corrupt magic, it still offers humanity their best hope, and given the
>rising mana levels and increasing technology, there may be other
>combinations of magic and technology previously undreamt of.
>Also consider this: Dunkelzahn, Harlequin and Ehran all seem to be
>fascinated with modern technology, and seem to think it a good thing. For
>three of the most magically active being to be this interested in
>something supposedly antithetical to magic seems a little odd, ney?

But the question still remains: Is it any good? Are people with low
essence less vunerable to Horror corruption, or more?

Arguments for less:
-Low essence makes some spells harder to use on you.
-REALLY low (sub-zero) eseence makes ALL spells harder to use on you.
-Therefore, you are less connected to astral space, and harder to hit
with magical things. (In my campaign, less-than-two essence give you
the "Poor Link" edge, and adds one to all uses of Mana based and
Detection spells used against you, but that's a different story. There
are also a couple more problems with low essence.)

Arguments for more:
-You can consider ANY cyberware a kind of blood-magic.
-Blood magic is easily corrupted by horrors.
-Enough cyber to take you to sub-zero essence is LOTS of blood magic,
plus the blood magic needed to kepp you alive.
-Therefore, anyone Cybermanced is REALLY vulnerable to horror corruption.

Any other comments?

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:40:43 -0400

Message no. 37 In a message dated 97-10-22 11:47:57 EDT, Platinum@*****.CA writes:

Ah look, someone else who didn't put in the spoilers...

> >
> > Spike once dared to write,
> >
> > >Ahhhh, but you're only taking into account the Mana curve.
> > >You are totally FAILING to take into account the Technology curve.
> > >
> > >Just 'cos the magic's more powerfull, doesn't mean much if the people
don'
> t
> > >know how to use it...
> > >
> > >The people of Barsaive had hundreds of years to prepare.
> > >The people of Shadowrun had less than 50...
> >
> the difference is technology. they have greater resources... a global
> village where people can collaborate across the world. They have texts
> and volumes. and scrolls from ancheint times which will just make sense
> now. may point is the amount they could learn in 50 will probably be
> equivelent to what they learned in 500.why ... because of technology and
> advanced methodologies. (oooh. I like that word)
>
> Another tidbit from the library of:
> Platinum

Very Very Good....think of the words that "Knowledge is Power" and just how
far that can come to.
-K

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:46:43 -0400

Message no. 38 Ray & Tamara once dared to write,

>then it was Aina's son. It was also Blood Magic or sorts, but they learnt it
>from an IE (a weird mutant one, but an IE none the less).

You take things quite literally don't you. I read her son as being
along the lines of being a former ally spirit. The mother-son analogy is
just how they view their relationship.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:51:12 -0400

Message no. 39 In a message dated 97-10-22 15:47:13 EDT, slothman@*********.ORG writes:

>
> Well, (a) I would put harsh limits on bulk transmutation of elements
(since
> it would do terrifying things to the economy) and (b) an "accelerate
> radioactive
> decay" spell would also help with radioactive carbon, iodine, barium,
> krypton,
> and so on. Your problem in this case isn't disposing of fissionable
> materials,
> though it would be a good thing to have for disarmament purposes. Your
> problem
> is dealing with the casings of fusion reactors that have been under
neutron
> bombardment for some time, and have become highly radioactive, even though
> they're nowhere near uranium on the periodic table...
>
I completely agree with you, believe it or not (Ripley eat your own heart
damn it!!!). I understand the effect you are speaking of, and apologize for
the over generalization that I made. The character in question would go
directly for the radiation source, not the stuff that is effected by it (was
he nuts, of course he was!!!). As for the casings and other materials,
variations on the spell idea are out there, I'm sure of it.

-K

From:	Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:59:05 -0400

Message no. 40 In a message dated 97-10-22 09:22:27 EDT, you write:

> However, I believe the sixth world is on the edge of discovering new
> magic. For example, we know that spirits have 'true names' which are
> essentially their astral patterns. One who knows this pattern has
> tremendous power over that spirit, including the ability to banish it
> permanently. Now, given what we know about cyberware and bioware resulting
> in essence loss, it is quite possible that (meta)humans have these true
> patterns as well. All someone would need to do is undertake an astral
> quest to learn the true pattern of another person.

The only question then is what exactly could you do with this information?
How about this for size, knowing someone's true pattern (and name) means
that during the process of implantation of cyberware and bioware a ritual
could be performed that also reduces the essence loss from cyberware and the
compatibility of bioware. What do you think of this?

P.S. I learned this from Keith.

From:	Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:05:07 -0500

Message no. 41 At 23-Okt-97 wrote Mike Bobroff:

>The only question then is what exactly could you do with this information?
> How about this for size, knowing someone's true pattern (and name) means
>that during the process of implantation of cyberware and bioware a ritual
>could be performed that also reduces the essence loss from cyberware and the
>compatibility of bioware. What do you think of this?

I`m in the progress of doing it for quiet some time now, the quest`s target
would be in this case me. Preparations for the future you can call it.
Since I have not found a way to change the implants I have I`m going to
find a way to get complettly rid of them if they fail sometimes.
I`m planning in using this information to restore my essence back to full
if this should happen.

One other way would be to restore the essence of on being with implants.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Evil Overlord advice #50:

My main computers will have their own special operating system
that will be completely incompatible with standard IBM and
Macintosh powerbooks.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"Mike (Leszek Karlik)" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:10:49 +0000

Message no. 42 On 22 Oct 97, Benjamin disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> >
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

> But the question still remains: Is it any good? Are people with low
> essence less vunerable to Horror corruption, or more?
>
<snip arguments for less>

> Arguments for more:
> -You can consider ANY cyberware a kind of blood-magic.
> -Blood magic is easily corrupted by horrors.
> -Enough cyber to take you to sub-zero essence is LOTS of blood
> magic, plus the blood magic needed to kepp you alive. -Therefore,
> anyone Cybermanced is REALLY vulnerable to horror corruption.

Well, consider that: blood magic makes you vulnerable to horror
corruption, yes?
BUT in Barsaive, adepts that hunt Horrors use:
-blood charms (esp. Horror Fend, Death Cheat etc) even though it's
blood magic
- blood oaths (forming group pattern etc.) even though it's b.m.
- blood magic, like using your blood to increase your Talent for one
use (ED grimmy, err... Manual of Mystic Secrets)

So, I guess that cybermancy would rather help than not... But that's
only IMO.

Mike (Leszek Karlik) - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Michael Kern - Akashic Brotherhood.

From:	NightRain <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:02:41 +1000

Message no. 43 MC23 wrote:
>>then it was Aina's son. It was also Blood Magic or sorts, but they
learnt it
>>from an IE (a weird mutant one, but an IE none the less).
>
> You take things quite literally don't you. I read her son as being
>along the lines of being a former ally spirit. The mother-son analogy is
>just how they view their relationship.

What give you that idea? Any hints or the like, or is it just a feeling?

NightRain.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au

From:	Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Thu, 23 Oct 1997 02:56:26 PDT

Message no. 44 >> S
>> P
>> O
>> I
>> L
>> E
>> R
>>
>> S
>> P
>> A
>> C
>> E
>>
>>
>>
>>

>Of course, the magic used to create cyberzobies is contributing to the
>mana spike which makes the Horrors a threat.
>Still, your idea is an interesting one. Perhaps the people who taught
the
>art of cybermancy realized the hopelessness of the situation, and
realized
>that the Horrors would be coming through far too soon regardless of the
>efforts of Harlequin, Aina and Dunkelzahn Thus, while cybermancy is a
form
>of corrupt magic, it still offers humanity their best hope, and given
the
>rising mana levels and increasing technology, there may be other
>combinations of magic and technology previously undreamt of.

Given thier vulnerability to astral powers, and the effect of "Karma
Hazing", I'd say they are insanely poor choices for combating powerful
magical creatures. A free spirit can EASILY posses one (if having that
power), and a wraith (a minor horror) can conrtol one without
manifesting. Plus, the are said to cause "Astral Pollution", a thing
the horrors LIKE and produced in plenty in ED. They are part of the
problem, not the solution. A total lack of emotion might make them
unatractive to horrors, but they don't seem to have even that. In
fact,they strike me as being much like the mizerable individual in ED
who is "Horror Marked"- unable to enjoy normal human life and social
discourse, constantly distracted, and subtley disturbing. And, horror
marked characters often gain new powers. It would not seem out of the
question for there to be a way to INTENTIONALLY get a horror to mark
somebody, to grant them new "power". Cadaver men of ED are sentient,
walking dead, created by and maintained in unlife by the horrors power.
They have a warped version of thier original personality. The
"medicine" a C-zombie gets could be nothing more than a really nice
preservative, or literally a way to keep dead flesh artificially alive.
As the commentors say, their creators don't know what they are doing.

>Also consider this: Dunkelzahn, Harlequin and Ehran all seem to be
>fascinated with modern technology, and seem to think it a good thing.
For three of the most magically active being to be this interested in
>something supposedly antithetical to magic seems a little odd, ney?
>

Sure they like Tech. Tech means new, powerful weapons. Horrors on
the physical plane are tough, but not invulnerable. Tech also has wierd
side effects like the Otaku.
I suspect the Otaku will be a "secret weapon" against the horrors,
if a plot line ever goes that far. They "live" in a world the horrors
know nothing about and can probably not affect. Perhaps there is some
way to store / guard a conciousness inside a computer- sort of a
"virtual Kair". I don't know what the implication for the body is, but
given the Otaku mentality and the possible circumstances, who cares ?

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psycotic - Einstien

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:03:53 +0100

Message no. 45 And verily, did Mike hastily scribble thusly...
|BUT in Barsaive, adepts that hunt Horrors use:
|-blood charms (esp. Horror Fend, Death Cheat etc) even though it's
|blood magic
|- blood oaths (forming group pattern etc.) even though it's b.m.
|- blood magic, like using your blood to increase your Talent for one
|use (ED grimmy, err... Manual of Mystic Secrets)

Ahhhh, this brings forth the difference the Barsaivians placed between Blood
Magic and Life Magic...

Blood Magic (only available to NPCs) was the evil, sacrificy type magic.
Life magic was the voluntarily giving up something in exchange for something
else, type magic...

|So, I guess that cybermancy would rather help than not... But that's
|only IMO.

I suppose all this depends on whether or not the person was Cybermanced
voluntarily....

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:59:56 -0400

Message no. 46 NightRain once dared to write,

>> You take things quite literally don't you. I read her son as being
>>along the lines of being a former ally spirit. The mother-son analogy is
>>just how they view their relationship.
>
>What give you that idea? Any hints or the like, or is it just a feeling?

Feeling maybe. Your statement just sounded too unplausible even with
the loosest handling of Shadowrun continuity. If you were reading using a
pure literal interpretation then it would explain this.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Timothy Little <t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:10:05 +1100

Message no. 47 At 02:56 AM 10/23/97 PDT, Mongoose wrote:

{... The 4th-world anti-horror guys seems to like tech ...]

> Sure they like Tech. Tech means new, powerful weapons. Horrors on
>the physical plane are tough, but not invulnerable. Tech also has wierd
>side effects like the Otaku.
> I suspect the Otaku will be a "secret weapon" against the horrors,
>if a plot line ever goes that far. They "live" in a world the horrors
>know nothing about and can probably not affect. Perhaps there is some
>way to store / guard a conciousness inside a computer- sort of a
>"virtual Kair". I don't know what the implication for the body is, but
>given the Otaku mentality and the possible circumstances, who cares ?

A player in my game suggested worldwide Matrix entities (AI's, presumably)
generating Patterns at 10^15 per second.

I don't know what effect these have, (I don't play Earthdawn), but it
sounds like something that could have interesting ramifications.

--
Little One

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:54:15 -0400

Message no. 48 In a message dated 97-10-23 10:57:30 EDT, trrkt@*****.ONET.PL (Mike (Leszek
Karlik)) writes:

> On 22 Oct 97, Benjamin disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
> writing:
>
> > > S
> > > P
> > > O
> > > I
> > > L
> > > E
> > > R
> > >
> > > S
> > > P
> > > A
> > > C
> > > E
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> > But the question still remains: Is it any good? Are people with low
> > essence less vunerable to Horror corruption, or more?
> >
> <snip arguments for less>
>
> > Arguments for more:
> > -You can consider ANY cyberware a kind of blood-magic.
> > -Blood magic is easily corrupted by horrors.
> > -Enough cyber to take you to sub-zero essence is LOTS of blood
> > magic, plus the blood magic needed to kepp you alive. -Therefore,
> > anyone Cybermanced is REALLY vulnerable to horror corruption.
>
> Well, consider that: blood magic makes you vulnerable to horror
> corruption, yes?
> BUT in Barsaive, adepts that hunt Horrors use:
> -blood charms (esp. Horror Fend, Death Cheat etc) even though it's
> blood magic
> - blood oaths (forming group pattern etc.) even though it's b.m.
> - blood magic, like using your blood to increase your Talent for one
> use (ED grimmy, err... Manual of Mystic Secrets)
>
> So, I guess that cybermancy would rather help than not... But that's
> only IMO.

I actually think that the argument of "it's take fire to fight fire" is
coming into play. Also, with great need for a weapon or tool against a given
opponent, it is often able for the world's denizens to mimic each other's
weapons and tools in order to gainsay or better the other.

-K

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:55:18 -0400

Message no. 49 In a message dated 97-10-23 11:03:59 EDT, macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU
(NightRain) writes:

> >>then it was Aina's son. It was also Blood Magic or sorts, but they
> learnt it
> >>from an IE (a weird mutant one, but an IE none the less).
> >
> > You take things quite literally don't you. I read her son as being
> >along the lines of being a former ally spirit. The mother-son analogy is
> >just how they view their relationship.
>
> What give you that idea? Any hints or the like, or is it just a feeling?
>
Me personally? I think it was when Thais said something to Aina about "yes,
he came to see me."

-K

From:	"J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magic and Technology
Date:	Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:16:49 -0400

Message no. 50 In a message dated 97-10-23 13:36:01 EDT, landsquid@*******.COM (Mon goose)
writes:

<Okay folks, I'll admit it, I removed the spoiler's, so don't keep reading if
don't already know what lies beyond...of course, if you don't keep reading,
then how can you what lies beyond....anyway>

> Sure they like Tech. Tech means new, powerful weapons. Horrors on
> the physical plane are tough, but not invulnerable. Tech also has wierd
> side effects like the Otaku.
> I suspect the Otaku will be a "secret weapon" against the horrors,
> if a plot line ever goes that far. They "live" in a world the horrors
> know nothing about and can probably not affect. Perhaps there is some
> way to store / guard a conciousness inside a computer- sort of a
> "virtual Kair". I don't know what the implication for the body is, but
> given the Otaku mentality and the possible circumstances, who cares ?

I have wondered that if an Otaku could "harden" their own personas, and then
undergo a death while connected, could they become "Ghosts in the Machine?"
I've been playing around with this idea for a while now, and still haven't
made ay really hard core decisions.

-K

Message no. 51 > I'd like to have your opinions on the integration of magic and technology,

NO!
That is my opinion..
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer

Message no. 52 Spoilers for Clockwork Asylum

> Given thier vulnerability to astral powers, and the effect of "Karma
>Hazing", I'd say [cyberzombies] are insanely poor choices for combating
powerful
>magical creatures. A free spirit can EASILY posses one (if having that
>power), and a wraith (a minor horror) can conrtol one without
>manifesting.

While it is true that cyberzombies are vulnerable to magical attacks, and
astral nasties. The particular details of what happens when one is "possessed"
by a free spirit is less than clear. I believe it would vary depending upon
the nature of both the spirit and the cyborg. In Clockwork Asylum, Lethe (a
very powerful free spirit) posseses the cyberzombie Burnout. Lethe does not
gain control as he expects; in fact he ends up trapped by the same
cybermantic magic which keeps Burnout's spirit in his body, and Lethe is
without control. A spirt cannot interface with the cybernetic parts and
control them.

It is my belief that there would be a balance (of control) with someone who
has an essence of zero. The spirit would be more in control in someone who
has a positive essence and less in control of someone whose essence is less
than zero -- like a cyberzombie. In the case of Burnout, part of that
essence loss is filled by the spirit's own life force over time, and this
has the side effect of bonding their spirits together and making Burnout
more (meta)human.

As with most interpretations of the rules, YMMV.

Ciao,

--Jak

Jak Koke La Jolla, CA
----------------------------------------------------------
Check out my "fully armed and operational" web pages at:
http://ursula.uoregon.edu/~jkoke

Message no. 53 MC23 wrote:

>>What give you that idea? Any hints or the like, or is it just a feeling?
>
> Feeling maybe. Your statement just sounded too unplausible even with
>the loosest handling of Shadowrun continuity. If you were reading using a
>pure literal interpretation then it would explain this.

I found that most of that book was too unbelievable or overpowered to be
really good. I sort of took it all at face value, but then ignored. ie I
believe that the author meant it to be taken literally, but I don't really
accept/believe it.

NightRain.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au

Message no. 54 And verily, did Timothy Little hastily scribble thusly...
|A player in my game suggested worldwide Matrix entities (AI's, presumably)
|generating Patterns at 10^15 per second.
|
|I don't know what effect these have, (I don't play Earthdawn), but it
|sounds like something that could have interesting ramifications.

How could an AI generate patterns?
They have no awareness of the astral plane, and there's no way to program an
algorythm to deal with astral space...

Remember, tech and magic don't mix.

Magic is a multi-dimensional thing whos mainstay is emotion and life.
Little to do with computers or AIs there...

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

Message no. 55 NightRain once dared to write,

>I found that most of that book was too unbelievable or overpowered to be
>really good. I sort of took it all at face value, but then ignored. ie I
>believe that the author meant it to be taken literally, but I don't really
>accept/believe it.

Fair enough. I tried to read it as what might be plausible and then
ignored what never could be believed. Some authors stray too far when
writing their books for Shadorun. That was one, and Black Madonna was
another. I think in the end we got just as much out of that book as we
could with our different way of reading things and came out about he same.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

Message no. 56 Mon goose writes
> >> sinister going on here...Just think about everything being connected.
>
> a fairly crucial spoiler
> b
> c
> d
> e
> f
> g
> h
> i
> j
> k
> l
> m
> n
> o
> p
> q
> r
> s
> t
> u
> v
> w
> x
> y
> z
>
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> 6
> 7
> 8
> 9
> 0
>
> My bet fora source of"evil" magic knowledge wouldbe minions of
> Vergigorm. That may seem over the top, but reading Verjigorms profile,
> a few things are evident:
>
> A)He never apeared in the fourth world
depends on which ED product you read! if the GM uses one of them he
gets loose in the fourth world.

> And, who a better agent for the hunter of dragons than Mr. Drake,
> er, Darke.
>
Yep!

Mark

Message no. 57 Rick St Jean writes

> Anyone have any karma costs for buying a magic attribute?. I
> mean if you're letting mages take over the matrix... why not let the
> sam's start taking on mage territory?
>
Yes, to 'awaken'

Full magician (A prioriy) : 43 karma
adept (B) : 23 Karma

a good roleplaying excuse, eg exposure to the site of the GGD (say
via harlequins back) is also required and all you get is magic as if
you had been a magician in the first place (ie if allowing for cyber
your new magic attribute is less than 1 well you hust burned out, bad
luck). given the skill requirements tacking 'starting mage
abilities' onto a character cost a grand total arround 150 karma!
from scratch for the 3 vital skills at about 4-5 and some spells.

Mark

Message no. 58 Rune Fostervoll writes

> In magic there is solutions to some of these problems, which could give huge
> reductions in power loss from power plants, extremely potent armor, and
> new and exiting ways to kill people... Possibly making new energy sources
> possible too. (Fusion plants?).
>
SR actually already mentions fusion power plants, but only fairly big
ones.

The fun comes if you build a fusion powered ram jet
/
/ scoop
- =======-----
exhaust - reactor
- =======-----
\
\

and set about accelerating the exhaust with magic. Now just at high
power levels be careful how much thrust you get :), feed hydrogen in
the front, and you get very fast helium out the back (reaction mass).
Ok we are a long way off actually builidng this yet, but combine one
suggested use with some of the hints and then use if for the use the
bit of 'startreknology' the looks like is used for :)

Mark

Message no. 59 Cool, I get to rant at Spike :) (Well, maybe not rant. We'll see.)

Spike wrote:
|
| And verily, did Timothy Little hastily scribble thusly...
| |A player in my game suggested worldwide Matrix entities (AI's, presumably)
| |generating Patterns at 10^15 per second.
| |
| |I don't know what effect these have, (I don't play Earthdawn), but it
| |sounds like something that could have interesting ramifications.
|
| How could an AI generate patterns?
| They have no awareness of the astral plane, and there's no way to program an
| algorythm to deal with astral space...

Why? A scientist once said that at somepoint we will be able to
create a computer with the abilities of the human brain that you can
hold in the palms of your hands. Why? Because it's already been
done. The human brain already exists. And it was created without
using advanced synthetic materials. Given time someone will
duplicate the human brain with superior materials.

Since mages in SR have an awareness of astral space (it's already
been done) scientists have a chance to duplicate that.

| Remember, tech and magic don't mix.

Sorry Spike, but this is bs. Magic can be used to augment science.
Several ideas have already been given by members of this list. Magic
is a science with it's own laws, but it does not conflict with the
laws of any other science.

You may be able to do things with magic that you can't do with
physics, but that doesn't mean that they're in conflict or can't
mix.

Summon a spirit, get into a car, and tell the spirit to increase the
movement of the car. Magic and technology are mixing.

| Magic is a multi-dimensional thing whos mainstay is emotion and life.
| Little to do with computers or AIs there...

I'll agree with that. But an AI, IMO, is a living entity and
therefor capable of manipulating magic.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

Message no. 60 In a message dated 97-10-24 02:58:46 EDT, you write:

> > I'd like to have your opinions on the integration of magic and
technology,
>
> NO!
> That is my opinion..

Granite, then there is only one thing I have to say then, I will abide by the
force of your convictions.

But I am also going to inform you of the arguement we (Keith and I) have for
some of our players in our home game. Magic is pushed by certain people
(both in and out of the group) to the limits to find new ways of enhancing
technology. Both in the areas of Build'Repair skills (like the Fix spell and
Magic Fingers amongst the preeminent) and in Research and Development.

An example to you, person A is a mundane. They are given the plans to build
a datareader. Person A will perform the task to the best of their abilities
with the tools that they are given.

Person B, a mage (Herc) given the same set of plans, will build the reader
with the same basic tools, but because he has access to the magic, he will
build the datareader to higher standards, possibly even making it slightly
higher than the current SOTA level.

Since Person B can perform the task better than Person A, then Person A is
behind in the SOTA curve. With the help from Person B, Person A could learn
those same techniques, and thereby keep up with the SOTA curve.

My next posting, describing something called the Mechanics will be out here
shortly. That should help.

Message no. 61 >Well, consider that: blood magic makes you
>vulnerable to horror corruption, yes?
>BUT in Barsaive, adepts that hunt Horrors use:
>-blood charms (esp. Horror Fend, Death Cheat
>etc) even though it's blood magic
>- blood oaths (forming group pattern etc.) even
>though it's b.m.
>- blood magic, like using your blood to increase
>your Talent for one use (ED grimmy, err...
>Manual of Mystic Secrets)

(Again, I'm a few days behind on mail, if this is
outdated, I apologize)

Yes, characters use blood magic to do good in
ED, BUT......
<mini-spoiler space

>
It is strongly hinted that blood magic is the thing
that is keeping the mana level high, thus
preserving the horror's presence on the earth. If
that is so, then the loss of mana is a much
greater threat to horrors than a few odd
overmatched heros. IMHO, blood magic is a
classic horror plot: short term gain for you, long
term pain for the world; use human nature and
greed against the sum of humanity.

Double-Domed Mike

Message no. 62 David Buehrer wrote:

> Cool, I get to rant at Spike :) (Well, maybe not rant. We'll see.)

> <major snippage>

> Why? A scientist once said that at somepoint we will be able to create a
> computer with the abilities of the human brain that you can hold in the palms of
> your hands. Why? Because it's already been done. The human brain already
> exists. And it was created without using advanced synthetic materials. Given
> time someone will duplicate the human brain with superior materials.

> Since mages in SR have an awareness of astral space (it's already
> been done) scientists have a chance to duplicate that.
>
> | Remember, tech and magic don't mix.
>
> Sorry Spike, but this is bs. Magic can be used to augment science.
> Several ideas have already been given by members of this list. Magic
> is a science with it's own laws, but it does not conflict with the
> laws of any other science.
>
> You may be able to do things with magic that you can't do with
> physics, but that doesn't mean that they're in conflict or can't
> mix.
>
> Summon a spirit, get into a car, and tell the spirit to increase the
> movement of the car. Magic and technology are mixing.

Yes. Technology and magic can be combined for fun effects. The lightsaber being a
spell locked laser spell was a fun idea. Other fun spells would be craft designed
with "Levitate Item" locks. The only problem with this stuff is when a mage gets
pissed, and decided to astrally project and remove a few spell locks from random
vehicles. Once you let the magical genie out of the bottle, it's very hard to
stuff it back in. Perhaps as was suggested elsewhere, instead of using a spell
lock, use a pattern item, which would be more durable and harder to just turn off.

> | Magic is a multi-dimensional thing whos mainstay is emotion and life.
> | Little to do with computers or AIs there...
>
> I'll agree with that. But an AI, IMO, is a living entity and
> therefor capable of manipulating magic.

I'll have to side with Spike at this point. There are plenty of people in SR who
are alive but can't manipulate magic. There's suggestions in Shadowtech that this
is a genetic ability. I don't see how one would put that into a computer. As is
said, there are no magic-o-meters. Until researchers make some sort of
breakthrough (perhaps with orichalium instruments?) this will remain. Only then
can I possibly even see AIs casting spells.

Spider Murphy

Message no. 63 At 16:40 10/24/97 GMT, Mark Steedman wrote:
>The fun comes if you build a fusion powered ram jet
> /
> / scoop
> - =======-----
>exhaust - reactor
> - =======-----
> \
> \
>
>and set about accelerating the exhaust with magic.

Why not just accelerate your craft with magic? It should have the same
net effect if the amount of energy you get out of it is the same.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%

Message no. 64 Spider Murphy wrote:
|
| > | Magic is a multi-dimensional thing whos mainstay is emotion and
| life. > | Little to do with computers or AIs there... > >

| >I'll agree
| with that. But an AI, IMO, is a living entity and > therefor capable
| of manipulating magic.
|
| I'll have to side with Spike at this point. There are plenty of people
| in SR who are alive but can't manipulate magic.

So. When AIs become a reality the same ratio would exist. Very few of
them would be able to manipulate magic. Of those few able to even fewer
would.

| There's suggestions in
| Shadowtech that this is a genetic ability. I don't see how one would
| put that into a computer.

*Suggestions*. No one in SR (except for maybe dragons and IEs)
really knows how magic works. Just because you don't understand it
doesn't mean it can't happen.

| As is said, there are no magic-o-meters.
| Until researchers make some sort of breakthrough (perhaps with
| orichalium instruments?) this will remain. Only then can I possibly
| even see AIs casting spells.

Something can't happen until scientists can measure it? I think you
and I are on different wavelengths. I feel that when AIs become a
reality some of them may be able to manipulate magic. Not because
they're designed that way. But that it will just happen. Nobody
plans to have a child that can manipulate magic, but it still
happens. Nobody knows why some children are born that can manipulate
magic, but it still happens.

Spider Murphy said on 16:12/23 Oct 97...
| > > > > Who says the Otaku are magicians? > > > > Who says that
there
| aren't some Otaku who are magicians? > > VR 2.0 does, on page 144:
| "Magic is Priority E for otaku. There is no > known instance of a
| magically active otaku."
|
| Ah, HA!! But that's for PC players of Otaku! NPCs have no such
| limitations! :)
|
| Just because there are no known instances does not mean they do not
| exist. You are using the same argument that I tried to use to
| dis-prove God. "There is no evidence that God exists, therefore he does
| not exist." That argument is a fallacy, and if I could find my
| philosophy book, I'd tell you which one it is precisely.

And with that you've just argued my point. Just because it hasn't
happened and just because no one can figure out how to make it work
doesn't mean it won't happen. There are far to many unkowns to
debate where technology ends and magic begins.

BTW, it's snowing in Denver Colorado. So far there's 3 inches on the
ground outside, and I'm sure the mountains are getting a lot more.
Not related to shadowrun, just some fun news :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

Message no. 65 J. Keith Henry wrote:
>> >>then it was Aina's son. It was also Blood Magic or sorts, but they
>> learnt it
>> >>from an IE (a weird mutant one, but an IE none the less).
>> >
>> > You take things quite literally don't you. I read her son as
being
>> >along the lines of being a former ally spirit. The mother-son analogy
is
>> >just how they view their relationship.
>>
>> What give you that idea? Any hints or the like, or is it just a
feeling?
>>
>Me personally? I think it was when Thais said something to Aina about
"yes,
>he came to see me."

How did that make you arrive at the 'not literally mother and son' idea?

NightRain.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au

Message no. 66 David Buehrer wrote:

> Spider Murphy wrote:
> | I'll have to side with Spike at this point. There are plenty of people
> | in SR who are alive but can't manipulate magic.
>
> So. When AIs become a reality the same ratio would exist. Very few of
> them would be able to manipulate magic. Of those few able to even fewer
> would.

Show me an AI with an Essence rating.

> | There's suggestions in
> | Shadowtech that this is a genetic ability. I don't see how one would
> | put that into a computer.
>
> *Suggestions*. No one in SR (except for maybe dragons and IEs)
> really knows how magic works. Just because you don't understand it
> doesn't mean it can't happen.

Yes, but computer circuitry doesn't just "happen" natually. The brain does,
but it's made out of a completely different material. Perhaps it's the
structural components of the brain that allow such a thing.

> | As is said, there are no magic-o-meters.
> | Until researchers make some sort of breakthrough (perhaps with
> | orichalium instruments?) this will remain. Only then can I possibly
> | even see AIs casting spells.
>
> Something can't happen until scientists can measure it? I think you
> and I are on different wavelengths. I feel that when AIs become a
> reality some of them may be able to manipulate magic. Not because
> they're designed that way. But that it will just happen. Nobody
> plans to have a child that can manipulate magic, but it still
> happens. Nobody knows why some children are born that can manipulate
> magic, but it still happens.

Something can happen before scientists measure it. Scientists cannot build
something that does something they can't measure... that's for the engineers.
;)

As for it happening randomly, how many AIs do you suppose exist in SR? What
is the ratio of mundanes/magicians? What is the probability that even one of
these things exists? Don't you think this ratio would be lower because these
things are machines?

> Spider Murphy said on 16:12/23 Oct 97...
> | > > > > Who says the Otaku are magicians? > > > > Who says
that there
> | aren't some Otaku who are magicians? > > VR 2.0 does, on page 144:
> | "Magic is Priority E for otaku. There is no > known instance of a
> | magically active otaku."
> |
> | Ah, HA!! But that's for PC players of Otaku! NPCs have no such
> | limitations! :)
> |
> | Just because there are no known instances does not mean they do not
> | exist. You are using the same argument that I tried to use to
> | dis-prove God. "There is no evidence that God exists, therefore he does
> | not exist." That argument is a fallacy, and if I could find my
> | philosophy book, I'd tell you which one it is precisely.
>
> And with that you've just argued my point. Just because it hasn't
> happened and just because no one can figure out how to make it work
> doesn't mean it won't happen. There are far to many unkowns to
> debate where technology ends and magic begins.

Yes, there are far too many unknowns in this debate. One of them may just
happen to be, "No purely technological device exists that can affect the
astral realm." And until FASA gives us more theory, we'll just have to keep
guessing.

Spider Murphy

Message no. 67 NightRain once dared to write,

>How did that make you arrive at the 'not literally mother and son' idea?

The nature between magician and ally spirit is a close one so the
concept of summoning an ally spirit for a female can easily be construed
as birth and it is after a fashion. A male perspective is less inclined
to think of creation as birth.
Also I thought there was some mention that Thais either had to find
a high magical background count and/or suffered even more greatly during
the loss of magic than the EI's. This makes more sense for a spirit than
for a meta-human. The thought of him being anything other than a spirit
never occurred to me.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

Message no. 68 MC23 wrote:
>>I found that most of that book was too unbelievable or overpowered to be
>>really good. I sort of took it all at face value, but then ignored. ie
I
>>believe that the author meant it to be taken literally, but I don't
really
>>accept/believe it.
>
> Fair enough. I tried to read it as what might be plausible and then
>ignored what never could be believed. Some authors stray too far when
>writing their books for Shadorun. That was one, and Black Madonna was

I still haven't read that novel for just that reason. It just sounds like
the type of book that will really rub me the wrong way.

>another. I think in the end we got just as much out of that book as we
>could with our different way of reading things and came out about he same.

We'll only be in trouble if we are forced to take the novels as Canon. :)

NightRain.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au

Message no. 69 In a message dated 97-10-24 18:50:25 EDT, crickel@***.EDU writes:

> > So. When AIs become a reality the same ratio would exist. Very few of
> > them would be able to manipulate magic. Of those few able to even fewer
> > would.
>
> Show me an AI with an Essence rating.
>
Okay, show -me- a Spirit with and Essence rating...
-K

Message no. 70 In a message dated 97-10-24 19:25:27 EDT, macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU
(NightRain) writes:

<snipped stuff on Aina, Thais, etc...>

> >Me personally? I think it was when Thais said something to Aina about
> "yes,
> >he came to see me."
>
> How did that make you arrive at the 'not literally mother and son' idea?
>
> NightRain.
>
Because he described his "father" as being "Yrsgrathe".
-K

Message no. 71 J. Keith Henry once dared to write,

>Okay, show -me- a Spirit with and Essence rating...

It's equal to its Force rating. OK next challenge.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

Message no. 72 > > Show me an AI with an Essence rating.
> >
> Okay, show -me- a Spirit with and Essence rating...
> -K

Ohhh...nice comeback ;)

Trinity

Message no. 73 Spider Murphy wrote:
|
| David Buehrer wrote:
|
| > Spider Murphy wrote:
| > | I'll have to side with Spike at this point. There are plenty of people
| > | in SR who are alive but can't manipulate magic.
| >
| > So. When AIs become a reality the same ratio would exist. Very few of
| > them would be able to manipulate magic. Of those few able to even fewer
| > would.
|
| Show me an AI with an Essence rating.

Well that would be the perogitive of the GM.

| > | There's suggestions in
| > | Shadowtech that this is a genetic ability. I don't see how one would
| > | put that into a computer.
| >
| > *Suggestions*. No one in SR (except for maybe dragons and IEs)
| > really knows how magic works. Just because you don't understand it
| > doesn't mean it can't happen.
|
| Yes, but computer circuitry doesn't just "happen" natually. The brain does,
| but it's made out of a completely different material. Perhaps it's the
| structural components of the brain that allow such a thing.

There's a mathematical theory about critical mass or something like that.
Any system can reach a critical point at which a critical event occurs.
The simplest(sp?) example is a pile of sand. If you keep adding sand to
the pile one slope will eventually shift, like an avalanch. The same thing
happens with evolution. Sooner or later, whether by design or chance, an
AI will come into existence, IMHO. In SR, IMO, sooner or later an AI will
be "born" that will have an essence and the ability to manipulate magic.

| > | As is said, there are no magic-o-meters.
| > | Until researchers make some sort of breakthrough (perhaps with
| > | orichalium instruments?) this will remain. Only then can I possibly
| > | even see AIs casting spells.
| >
| > Something can't happen until scientists can measure it? I think you
| > and I are on different wavelengths. I feel that when AIs become a
| > reality some of them may be able to manipulate magic. Not because
| > they're designed that way. But that it will just happen. Nobody
| > plans to have a child that can manipulate magic, but it still
| > happens. Nobody knows why some children are born that can manipulate
| > magic, but it still happens.
|
| Something can happen before scientists measure it. Scientists cannot build
| something that does something they can't measure... that's for the engineers.
| ;)

ROTFLOL :)

| Yes, there are far too many unknowns in this debate. One of them may just
| happen to be, "No purely technological device exists that can affect the
| astral realm." And until FASA gives us more theory, we'll just have to keep
| guessing.

Yeah. I'll concede that I'm pretty much describing how it is in my game.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

Message no. 74 In a message dated 97-10-25 08:43:17 EDT, mc23@**********.COM writes:

> >Okay, show -me- a Spirit with and Essence rating...
>
> It's equal to its Force rating. OK next challenge.
>
Not quite guy. I said show me it's Essence Rating, NOT what is it's
equivalent. You can't walk away from something without making a valid
comparison (Apples and Oranges sort of thing).

-K

Message no. 75 J. Keith Henry wrote:

> In a message dated 97-10-25 08:43:17 EDT, mc23@**********.COM writes:

> > >Okay, show -me- a Spirit with and Essence rating...

> > It's equal to its Force rating. OK next challenge.

> Not quite guy. I said show me it's Essence Rating, NOT what is it's
> equivalent. You can't walk away from something without making a valid
> comparison (Apples and Oranges sort of thing).

Speaking of moot points... Spirits are a completely different matter
than AIs. Spirits are by nature part of the magical realm, while
computers are not. (This is why you can't read a monitor screen from
Astral, why you can project directly through a mainframe, and so on,
endlessly.) And while patterns are cute, they're part of Earthdawn, not
Shadowrun.

Incidentally, going by the Critter Chart, spirits have Essence. Force
rating is *not* "equivalent".

-Mb

Postscriptorum: How would an AI establish LOS? Which "body" would it
astrally project from? Esh. Besides not being supported by the
'theory' behind magic, you break too many rules in allowing magically
active AIs.

Message no. 76 Matb wrote:

> Postscriptorum: How would an AI establish LOS? Which "body" would it
> astrally project from? Esh. Besides not being supported by the
> 'theory' behind magic, you break too many rules in allowing magically
> active AIs.

And how does it astrally perceve? :) Can you -see- auras through them
security cameras?

Spider Murphy

Message no. 77 J. Keith Henry wrote:
>> >Me personally? I think it was when Thais said something to Aina about
>> "yes,
>> >he came to see me."
>>
>> How did that make you arrive at the 'not literally mother and son'
idea?
>>
>> NightRain.
>>
>Because he described his "father" as being "Yrsgrathe".

That's what led me to believe that it was literal, and not an analogy. How
does Ysgarthe help in fathering an ally spirit? I mean what did he do that
gave him the 'father' role in the analogy, if Thais had no real father?

The fact that Ysgarthe was named as the father made me believe that the
author meant it to be literal, and that explained Thais' weird physiology.
I did not like the idea mind you, but that is how I thought the author
meant it to be.

NightRain.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au

Message no. 78 And verily, did J. Keith Henry hastily scribble thusly...
|
|In a message dated 97-10-24 18:50:25 EDT, crickel@***.EDU writes:
|
|> > So. When AIs become a reality the same ratio would exist. Very few of
|> > them would be able to manipulate magic. Of those few able to even fewer
|> > would.
|>
|> Show me an AI with an Essence rating.
|>
|Okay, show -me- a Spirit with and Essence rating...

OK... Look at any spirit in any book.
You see that word there... Yes, that's the one... FORCE!

That is the spiritual equivalent of essence.
Essence only exists for beings with a physical nature...
(After all, it reflects the link between body and soul/astral
form/spirit/whatever).

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

Message no. 79 In a message dated 97-10-25 16:43:54 EDT, you write:

> > Postscriptorum: How would an AI establish LOS? Which "body" would it
> > astrally project from? Esh. Besides not being supported by the
> > 'theory' behind magic, you break too many rules in allowing magically
> > active AIs.
>
> And how does it astrally perceve? :) Can you -see- auras through them
> security cameras?
>
> Spider Murphy

Has anyone considered Kirlian Plate Technology for use in visual sensor
systems?

Mike

Message no. 80 Mike Bobroff wrote:

> In a message dated 97-10-25 16:43:54 EDT, you write:
>
> > > Postscriptorum: How would an AI establish LOS? Which "body"
would it
> > > astrally project from? Esh. Besides not being supported by the
> > > 'theory' behind magic, you break too many rules in allowing magically
> > > active AIs.
> >
> > And how does it astrally perceve? :) Can you -see- auras through them
> > security cameras?
> >
> > Spider Murphy
>
> Has anyone considered Kirlian Plate Technology for use in visual sensor
> systems?
>
> Mike

Do correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know a lot about Kirlian photography - but
don't you have to actually have the object you're looking at within a high
frequency electrical field? Wouldn't that sort of make it useless for longer
ranges then about, oh, a meter or so? And wouldn't it feel darned
uncomfortable to whoever you were looking at?

Especially if they happened to be grounded... Zap! "OW!" :)

Spider Murphy

Message no. 81 In a message dated 97-10-26 16:18:39 EST, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK writes:

> OK... Look at any spirit in any book.
> You see that word there... Yes, that's the one... FORCE!
>
> That is the spiritual equivalent of essence.
> Essence only exists for beings with a physical nature...
> (After all, it reflects the link between body and soul/astral
> form/spirit/whatever).
>
For game mechanics purposes, I completely agree with you. However, to use
your own words, it "reflects the link between the body and soul/astral
form/spirit/whatever". Spirits, in their normal (the mundane world's
perception) don't have a body, at least not in the normal sense (double
iteration, I know). Force is the reflection of effort a given entity puts
forward, kind of like the Willpower or Charisma of a magician in the astral.

Game Theoretics involved, Force =/= Essence. Game Mechanics, yes.

-K

Message no. 82 In a message dated 97-10-27 15:52:52 EST, crickel@***.EDU writes:

>
> Do correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know a lot about Kirlian photography -

> but
> don't you have to actually have the object you're looking at within a high
> frequency electrical field? Wouldn't that sort of make it useless for
longer
> ranges then about, oh, a meter or so? And wouldn't it feel darned
> uncomfortable to whoever you were looking at?

KPT (Kirlian Plate Technology) would be useful against only manifesting
magical energies and/or those enhancements that might show up upon those
individuals with significantly higher biometric "auras". KPT is used in the
games here, and mercifully the guy who uses it the most is not that familiar
so he thinks he can see unmanifested beings (GM's Evil Grin)

Yes, it does require energy medium, in our time. A theory is used that with
the coming of the Awakened Age, the etheric medium resonates more
"perceptibly". As such, the range is a bit more than a meter, but at
extended ranges, the sensor unit has increasing difficulties. There are
crazy rulings concerning Olaf (the character in the games here) that the
player is unaware of.

> Especially if they happened to be grounded... Zap! "OW!" :)

Think of it as an optional defensive measure....

-K

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