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Message no. 1
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 01:13:51 -0500
Okay,

Here is something for the riggers in the world to just love to death ...

Starting with the inspiration ... people can have symbiotes implanted in them
which can help the body heal itself and even lessen the severity of a wound
...

So, here is the new piece of technology ... or a spin on an old piece of
technology (from Keith's pov) ... something called a Nano-Doc ... a vehicle
has a component that does nothing but make nanites, then coupled with a
network of wiring (hey ... perhaps connected to the CMC's in some way) the
nanites can be directed to places where the vehicle has suffered damage and
can begin to repair the vehicle, and given time get it back in decent shape
even.

To keep the nanites around, all the rigger need do is get the basic materials
and stick it somewhere (like the trunk or under the seat) where the nanites
can eat away at the material, thereby building more nanites and other things.

Enjoy,

Mike
Message no. 2
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 18:14:42 +0100
In a fit of megalomania Airwisp wrote:
>Okay,
>
>Here is something for the riggers in the world to just love to death ...
>
>Starting with the inspiration ... people can have symbiotes implanted in them
>which can help the body heal itself and even lessen the severity of a wound
>...
*snip nanobots*

Here's another idea along a similar vein. (Thanks for the inspiring idea! :)

Today a few rather interesting materials are coming along.
Piesometals, 'smartmetals', memsteel, piesogel. Materials which contract,
expand, bend and reshape themselves according to electric or heat impulses.
It is allready far enough that MIT has made a 'boat' (model sized) that swims
like a fish - at surprising speed, too - using such materials.

Using such metals and a computer core it would be theoretically possible to
make a 'biological' vehicle. That is, a vehicle vhich has mechanical
equivalents of a bloodstream, self-healing, nervous system and muscles.
And armor. Given a few electrical impulses, the armor would bend itself back in
place after getting hit, seal the 'muscles' and be fully operable in seconds.
The bloodstream would contain replacement materials carried by nanobots
(both the materials and the bots) and the chemicals needed for actuators.

How would it move? It's more interesting for subs or boats initially,
as they would easily be able to take advantage of the mobility of the
structure.(swim) Next would be all-terrain vehicles. ('spiders' rather than
two-legged walkers, or, as is more likely, combining this technology with more
regular tracks or wheels.). Helicopters, space vehicles, advanced body armor
etc. would be other, interesting, options.

--
Rune Fostervoll, runefo@***.uio.no
----------------------------------
ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 3
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:33:30 EST
In a message dated 97-11-01 01:14:58 EST, AirWisp@***.COM writes:

> Okay,
> Here is something for the riggers in the world to just love to death ...

I can see it now...

> Starting with the inspiration ... people can have symbiotes implanted in
> them
> which can help the body heal itself and even lessen the severity of a wound
> ....

Yep, but somehow it won't be nearly as stunning as the "CAD Room Brainstorm"
that morning all those years ago now (hey, it was 4 years ago now...DAMN!!!)

> So, here is the new piece of technology ... or a spin on an old piece of
> technology (from Keith's pov) ... something called a Nano-Doc ... a vehicle
> has a component that does nothing but make nanites, then coupled with a
> network of wiring (hey ... perhaps connected to the CMC's in some way) the
> nanites can be directed to places where the vehicle has suffered damage and
> can begin to repair the vehicle, and given time get it back in decent shape
> even.

I like the idea that is could be connected to CMC's, but how about some rule
guidelines here? Post to the group, let's see what happens.

> To keep the nanites around, all the rigger need do is get the basic
> materials
> and stick it somewhere (like the trunk or under the seat) where the nanites
> can eat away at the material, thereby building more nanites and other
things.
> Enjoy,
> Mike

Sounds like what is happening to Jazz in the Home Game at the moment. The
newly implanted NanoDOC is going to work upgrading his stuff. Oh, btw, the
NanoDOC...in this case, how about NanoMECH, could help in fighting off the
problems of SOTA and maybe even 'Stress', in that general maintenance is
constantly being maintained.

-K
Message no. 4
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 14:20:59 PST
>> Starting with the inspiration ... people can have symbiotes
implanted in them which can help the body heal itself and even lessen
the severity of a wound

Actually, sybiotes are genetically engineered bacteria etc. in the
bloodstream that aid wound recovery, perhaps by supplying drugs and
nutriets needed for recovery, and otherwise facilitating natural
recovery. The do nothing to actually reduce the severity of wounds
taken- at most, they halve recovery time.


>> So, here is the new piece of technology ... or a spin on an old
piece of technology (from Keith's pov) ... something called a Nano-Doc
... a vehicle has a component that does nothing but make nanites, then
coupled with a network of wiring (hey ... perhaps connected to the CMC's
in some way) the nanites can be directed to places where the vehicle has
suffered damage and can begin to repair the vehicle, and given time get
it back in decent shape even.
>

That sounds WAY beyond the puervue of SR tech- there are no
"nanobots". Besides, a vehicle has NO recovery rate, so accelerating
that rate would do no good. :)
The problem is, if you have this tech, a conventional vehicle made of
conventional material is pretty pointless- the nanobots could build a
much better one, and perform most of its operations to boot (Engine?
what Engine?)
"Liquid Mechanic"? I don't think so. Even a robot mechanic would
likely be slower and less versatile than a living one. Now, a mechanic
rigger contolling many specialized repair drones would work faster, but
still not on a combat-time scale, nor in a way that would make buying
new components unnecessary. Note that the samllest available DRONE is 4
inches or so- so the tech for nonoscale ROBOTS is clearly unavailable.

Now, if your vehicle was the hommonculous body for an Ally spirit,
it would automatically recover damage at the same rate as any spirit,
and be self aware to boot... Naw, thats to silly.

The human equivalent of the system you are proposing is a colony of
nanobots in the body that constitute a self opperating med-kit, allowing
an automatic first aid roll for every wound. Pretty cool, but probably
not possible by current SR tech.

>I like the idea that is could be connected to CMC's, but how about some
rule guidelines here? Post to the group, let's see what happens.

>> To keep the nanites around, all the rigger need do is get the basic
materials and stick it somewhere (like the trunk or under the seat)
where the nanites can eat away at the material, thereby building >>more
nanites and other things.

"other things" Including tanks, cyberdecks, high quality ultratech
weapons, sentient skyscrapers, intellegent mutant nanite swarms that
destroy humanity...

Read Neal Stepehensons "Diamond Age" for a clue as to the upheval caused
by versatile, portable nanotech.

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 5
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:28:45 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-02 00:42:03 EST, landsquid@*******.COM (Mon goose)
writes:

> >> Starting with the inspiration ... people can have symbiotes
> implanted in them which can help the body heal itself and even lessen
> the severity of a wound
>
> Actually, sybiotes are genetically engineered bacteria etc. in the
> bloodstream that aid wound recovery, perhaps by supplying drugs and
> nutriets needed for recovery, and otherwise facilitating natural
> recovery. The do nothing to actually reduce the severity of wounds
> taken- at most, they halve recovery time.

We realize that guy, if you notice, it said "Starting with the
inspiration..."

> >> So, here is the new piece of technology ... or a spin on an old
> piece of technology (from Keith's pov) ... something called a Nano-Doc
> ... a vehicle has a component that does nothing but make nanites, then
> coupled with a network of wiring (hey ... perhaps connected to the CMC's
> in some way) the nanites can be directed to places where the vehicle has
> suffered damage and can begin to repair the vehicle, and given time get
> it back in decent shape even.
> >
>
> That sounds WAY beyond the puervue of SR tech- there are no
> "nanobots". Besides, a vehicle has NO recovery rate, so accelerating
> that rate would do no good. :)

Actually, it isn't beyond the 'puervue' (I can't find that word, I assume you
mean 'within the reach') of SR tech. And as for 'no recovery rates', that
isn't entirely true. Cool down times and re-establishment of correct fluids
does occur. Some of it with 'vehicle downtime', other's during vehicle
'operation.' I am not shooting down your argument, I am merely stating that
you are probably incorrect. In this case "Nanites" are more like
"Micronites"...small, but not imperceptably so.

> The problem is, if you have this tech, a conventional vehicle made of
> conventional material is pretty pointless- the nanobots could build a
> much better one, and perform most of its operations to boot (Engine?
> what Engine?)

In theory, you are correct, they could. But, as in the post I put forth in
response to Mike's, I am not certain they could perform such in drastic
measures. But they would surely be able to assist in keeping various parts
of vehicles "up to SOTA." Also, a "NanoMECH" (I'm copyrighting that
one!!!)
could be a form of 'ultra-advanced operations monitor', constantly performing
who-knows-what diagnostics on the vehicle in question. What I was trying to
get from Mike and Rune in their posts was some ideas on "how big" (aka, CF,
Load, Design/Customization Points, etc.) this kind of a thing might have.

> "Liquid Mechanic"? I don't think so. Even a robot mechanic would
> likely be slower and less versatile than a living one. Now, a mechanic
> rigger contolling many specialized repair drones would work faster, but
> still not on a combat-time scale, nor in a way that would make buying
> new components unnecessary. Note that the samllest available DRONE is 4
> inches or so- so the tech for nonoscale ROBOTS is clearly unavailable.

First of all, where did "Liquid Mechanic" come from? I must have missed
something. And secondly, you are incorrect in your scale and size
availability. Nanites (real ones) are used (and mentioned) in the
Cybertechnology and the Shadowtech Sourcebooks. Don't go so small. Just
don't make them "godlike" in their abilities either. True, the
"drones" in
R2 have a "13 cm limit", which until Shiawase came along, wasn't broken.
It's like secret stuff today...who knows what is hiding in the shadows (did
someone, anyone, catch that?)......

> Now, if your vehicle was the hommonculous body for an Ally spirit,
> it would automatically recover damage at the same rate as any spirit,
> and be self aware to boot... Naw, thats to silly.

Actually, about 7 years ago now (maybe 6), one of my players asked me if a
magician could put an ally in a vehicle. I told him no, when I noticed he
was looking at the MBT Stonewall in Rigger Black Book. Truthfully, it could
be done, but a "homonculi" body would require some special modifications to
the vehicle/drone as a whole. Perhaps similar to the process used for
"preparing objects for anchorings" (Grimoire II; page 47). Can we say
"Mark
Up Modifier?!? Yes, I thought so too."

> The human equivalent of the system you are proposing is a colony of
> nanobots in the body that constitute a self opperating med-kit, allowing
> an automatic first aid roll for every wound. Pretty cool, but probably
> not possible by current SR tech.

Again, not correct. The original brainstorm had a nasty idea in mind.
Suppose the medtechs simply "leave in" the nanites from the surgery (not the
ones that use their bodies in the making of things, the others that
guide/supervise the operations) and give a processor control unit attached to
an Encephalon or similar unit. Essence Cost was argued out to be similar to
Skillwires, and the nanites in question used "parallel bio-mechanics" to
communicate with each other (they used the bodies own internal communication
system to stay in touch and to coordinate).

> >I like the idea that is could be connected to CMC's, but how about some
> rule guidelines here? Post to the group, let's see what happens.

And I'm still waiting for this from Mike or Rune. I have some ideas, but I
want to see someone beyond "this house" to do so. Dave, you are good at
this, give it a whirl, get into with them and see what happens.

> >> To keep the nanites around, all the rigger need do is get the basic
> materials and stick it somewhere (like the trunk or under the seat)
> where the nanites can eat away at the material, thereby building >>more
> nanites and other things.
>
> "other things" Including tanks, cyberdecks, high quality ultratech
> weapons, sentient skyscrapers, intellegent mutant nanite swarms that
> destroy humanity...

All of which are true. In theory, yes it could happen to each of those ends
you suggest and those suggested in the books you mention as well. Makes for
some wonderful plot developments IMMHO.

> Read Neal Stepehensons "Diamond Age" for a clue as to the upheval caused
> by versatile, portable nanotech.
>
> Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
> of a psychotic - Einstein

Too Bad Einstein was the only one to understand the deadwood....

-K
Message no. 6
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:55:54 PST
>> Actually, sybiotes are genetically engineered bacteria etc. in the
>> bloodstream

>We realize that guy, if you notice, it said "Starting with the
>inspiration..."



I figured that meant "the inspration {that similar technology is
available and could be modified for this new purpose}". Sorry.

The Nanites used for implantation surgery that you mention below are
also just genetically modified bacteria and are extermally guided by
chemical and NMR cues, totaly non-smart. Not that Bac-cultures might
not have a few (wierd) aplications to vehicular repair.

>Actually, it isn't beyond the 'puervue' (I can't find that word, I
assume you
>mean 'within the reach') of SR tech. And as for 'no recovery rates',
that
>isn't entirely true. Cool down times and re-establishment of correct
fluids
>does occur.

My Bad: "Purview ; Range of physical or mental vision". Quite
zlobatical, the ability for context to convey definition :)

Problems like overheating and fluid loss are not what i think of as
"damage". Now, preventing that sort of problem (and thus such things as
engine siezure) Would be a Good Thing, maybe similar in effect to the
platelet factories bonus.

General repair nanoMechs, to use your term, are outside tech available
top engineers in the SR world, IMO, comparing them to ANY available
technology in the books.

>> The problem is, if you have this tech, a conventional vehicle
made of conventional material is pretty pointless- the nanobots could
build a much better one, and perform most of its operations to boot
(Engine? what Engine?)
>
>In theory, you are correct, they could. But, as in the post I put
forth in response to Mike's, I am not certain they could perform such in
drastic measures.

Nanomechs would have to be non-self replicating if they were lacking
in other drastic capablitities. And a resonable producer machine would
be a freaking facility, not a vehicle component (else a faciltiy sized
version could churn out a versatile army of nanomechs and have a similar
impact as universal assembler nanites).
Re-plating worn engine surfaces, removing oil born abrasives,
rebuilding fluids and brake panesl, maybe repairing body
discontiniutuies (cracks and dents) might not be to far out of line.
Rebuilding a missiled electronics bay or battery and motor system would.
Perhaps you should make the intended capabilities clearer.


> But they would surely be able to assist in keeping various parts
>of vehicles "up to SOTA." Also, a "NanoMECH" (I'm copyrighting
that
one!!!)

It could eliminate maintenance. Staying SOTA implies the NanoMechs
somehow learn of and impliment vehicle design improvements.

Can I register naNOroBOT", ie, NO-BOT ? :)

>could be a form of 'ultra-advanced operations monitor', constantly
performing
>who-knows-what diagnostics on the vehicle in question. What I was
trying to
>get from Mike and Rune in their posts was some ideas on "how big" (aka,
CF,
>Load, Design/Customization Points, etc.) this kind of a thing might
have.
>

>First of all, where did "Liquid Mechanic" come from? I must have
missed
>something. And secondly, you are incorrect in your scale and size
>availability. Nanites (real ones) are used (and mentioned) in the
>Cybertechnology and the Shadowtech Sourcebooks. Don't go so small.
Just
>don't make them "godlike" in their abilities either. True, the
"drones" in
>R2 have a "13 cm limit", which until Shiawase came along, wasn't
broken.
> It's like secret stuff today...who knows what is hiding in the shadows
(did
>someone, anyone, catch that?)......
>

Well, with very limited and specific effects, maybe, but it seems
less effecient than just improving vehicle reliability.
To actually repair damage by reforming a supply of base materials
comes close to "liquid mechanic" IMO- by which i mean a swarm of
"assembler" type nanites that perform the job of a mechanic and could be
stored in some sort of "jar", which sounds like what you were talking
about.

Re Shiawase bug- the military has smaller intellegence drones under
develoment ALREADY, not to mention experiments where cock-roaches have
been remote contolled by replacing thier antenea with electrodes.
Shiawase is noted for thier counter- intellegence and shadow capbilities
in Corp handbook.
The "fifth element" spy-roach is not a far technological reach. A
box full of them eating an iron block and building me a new wheel while
I drive IS.
I guessas special purpose repair aids, they might be POSSIBLE, but
they seem uneconomic compared to a good toolbox, a 3-d litho, maybe some
waldo's, and an itneractive repair manual.

> Suppose the medtechs simply "leave in" the nanites from the surgery
(not the ones that use their bodies in the making of things, the others
that guide/supervise the operations) and give a processor control unit
attached to an Encephalon or similar unit.

Re-read how Shadowtech says "Nanites" are used in
cyber-implantation. They are engeneered bacteria guided by chemical
cues cotrolled with NMR type devices. They die in the proces of
producing the cyber. Not that the idea is TOTALLY bogus as a method for
repairing / maintainig cyber, but it is not really based on any availabe
tech.


>> >I like the idea that is could be connected to CMC's, but how
>>>about some rule guidelines here?

Looking at the posted suggestion, I'd say that it is far to cheap, and
would require more maintanance than the vehicle (to replace used
micromechs). Devices with a skill rating that can work on thier own
(robots with semi-automous based programs) are VERY expensive in R2. A
general vehicle BR skill allows the system to perform many tasks-
upgrading the vehicle, building new components / vehicles, stealing/
sabotaging other vehices, maybe defaulting to other skills.
A drone with those buggies in it would be the SHIT for security
incursions. If there are intended limitations to the use of the skill,
they should be made clear. One that I can see is that a human mechanic
needs a set of tools- like a vehicle kit, shop, or facility, depending
on the job. These nanoMECHS do the whole job themselves, with less cost
and less bulk. Thats one HELL of a SOTA jump. I'd say they need
various helper machines, materials production devices (like a 3-d
litho) and extra pocesseor power to drive numerous small mechs in a
complicated task. They would be small robots capable of cleaning,
diagnosing, and moving vehicle parts- pretty good if you have loose
wires or missing fluids, not good enough if you have a cracked block or
sheared axle. Very limited material manipulation capabilites (thermite
welding of small cracks, acid removal of locked nuts, etc), but not bulk
materials aplication without external help.
Actaully, a MEDKIT provides the brains (but not the brawn) needed for
first aid. I don't see why a toolkit wouldn't as well.


>All of which are true. In theory, yes it could happen to each of those
ends
>you suggest and those suggested in the books you mention as well.
Makes for
>some wonderful plot developments IMMHO.

If you like that sort of thing, its a neat direction to go,but seems
easy to have it get out of control, or at least beyond SR's ability to
deal with. They are not plot developements I'd like to play with.
Cool, indeed, but different in focus from what I see in SR.

I unfortunately do not see vehicle reapiring nanoMechs as being the
end result of what would be a fairly intensive R+D effort. The
resultant know-how and hardware would have so many other profitable
aplications, nefarious and legitimate. And the implementation seems on
the extreme outer edge of SR tech possibility, in both AI and
minitureization.

As some sort of "pre-miltary" R+D proof of concept, it might be done
in a lab. Sort of like those grocery shopping robots that were DARPA
funded- you think the army cares about image recognition for the purpose
of grocery shopping? Having runners end up with one system as the
result of a raid on such a lab would lead to some dangerous fun, and the
device would be easily limited in its capability. But, as i'm sure you
realize, anything even aproaching general purpose assmbler nano-tech
would change the entire economy and scope of your game. Otherwise,
there are beter ways to intrduce such toys if you need nanomech type
stuff in your game.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Spirit silliness:

>> Now, if your vehicle was the hommonculous body for an Ally
spirit......
<snip to reply>
> Perhaps similar to the process used for
>"preparing objects for anchorings" (Grimoire II; page 47). Can we say
"Mark
>Up Modifier?!?

Good thing you squashed that one. I can see the mechanic performinmg
"ritual of change (..ing oil)". :)
A CAS stonewall? where the frag would s/he get one to enchant, and
what good is it with no stats? In fact, giving it the spirits stats
would WEAKEN it, most likely. :)

Just enchanting as an anchor is WAY to easy. It says the body is
actually a kind of Unique Spirit Fpcus, so there's that answer. Now, if
you can enchant the vehicle as a spirit focus... Eesh, markup, and
plenty of it if the vehicle is custom made as a virgin telesma!
However, I don't see anything technically stopping a good enchanter from
enchanting ANYTHING she wishes as a focus, once she has the formula
specifieng it as the proper object type. That includes normal
vehicles... Maybe they should include a mass modifier in the enchanting
table?


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 7
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:31:47 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-01 12:15:41 EST, you write:

> Using such metals and a computer core it would be theoretically possible to
> make a 'biological' vehicle. That is, a vehicle vhich has mechanical
> equivalents of a bloodstream, self-healing, nervous system and muscles.
> And armor. Given a few electrical impulses, the armor would bend itself
back
> in place after getting hit, seal the 'muscles' and be fully operable in
seconds.
> > The bloodstream would contain replacement materials carried by nanobots
> (both the materials and the bots) and the chemicals needed for actuators.

Ever consider perhaps the bio-forms which are used in the construction of
bloats (mentioned rather briefly in Shadowtech). They are biological
organisms, and could be grown to fit around a powerplant and basic chassi for
a vehicle. When in the sunlight the organisms would produce electricity,
which could then power an electric engine of sorts.

>How would it move? It's more interesting for subs or boats initially,
> as they would easily be able to take advantage of the mobility of the
> structure.(swim) Next would be all-terrain vehicles. ('spiders' rather
than
> two-legged walkers, or, as is more likely, combining this technology with
> more regular tracks or wheels.). Helicopters, space vehicles, advanced body
armor
> etc. would be other, interesting, options.

Using the electricity to either make certain parts of the bio-forms move
(like flippers or a tail) or by powering the engine.

What about the idea that perhaps a VERY advanced version of the Smart
Materials from R2 could do the same thing, as the definition you give for the
material used currently is rather similar to the description for Smart
Materials.

Mike
Message no. 8
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:07:38 EST
In a message dated 97-11-02 00:42:18 EST, Landsquid wrote:

> Actually, sybiotes are genetically engineered bacteria etc. in the
> bloodstream that aid wound recovery, perhaps by supplying drugs and
> nutriets needed for recovery, and otherwise facilitating natural
> recovery. The do nothing to actually reduce the severity of wounds
> taken- at most, they halve recovery time.

Umm, I just reread the Symbiotes thing, yes you are right, although perhaps I
should have been thinking of a Platelet Factory instead.

> That sounds WAY beyond the puervue of SR tech- there are no
> "nanobots". Besides, a vehicle has NO recovery rate, so accelerating
> that rate would do no good. :)

Not really, as I understand most cyber-implantation, especially the ones that
occur on a massive scale (the ones costing more than 1 essence point) involves
the use of nanites being moved into position and the fusing together to form
the pattern for the cyberware, and then begin encoded with the programming
that gives the cyberware it's purpose.

And the purpose behind the Nano-mech is to give a vehicle the ability to
'heal' itself, but only to the specifications that it has within it's memory
cosre at the time within the Central Control Unit.

> The problem is, if you have this tech, a conventional vehicle made of
> conventional material is pretty pointless- the nanobots could build a
> much better one, and perform most of its operations to boot (Engine?
> what Engine?)

But the 'nanites' need the conventional material to manufacture the parts or
themselves even, so that they can make the parts.

> "Liquid Mechanic"? I don't think so. Even a robot mechanic would
> likely be slower and less versatile than a living one. Now, a mechanic
> rigger contolling many specialized repair drones would work faster, but
> still not on a combat-time scale, nor in a way that would make buying
> new components unnecessary. Note that the samllest available DRONE is 4
> inches or so- so the tech for nonoscale ROBOTS is clearly unavailable.

Give the Central Control Unit a Piloting Skill and the Learning Attribute, and
that could change things immensely. And yes, the nanites will not be able to
rebuild or repair the vehicle really quickly, it is meant to take time and
money (spent on getting the materials for the nanites, perhaps even the
programming for the nanites to build or integrate something on the vehicle).

> Now, if your vehicle was the hommonculous body for an Ally spirit,
> it would automatically recover damage at the same rate as any spirit,
> and be self aware to boot... Naw, thats to silly.

Now isn't that a unique idea, this would definitely come under the title of a
truly customized vehicle, and no, the vehicle would not recover damage as per
the spirit would, as the vehicle is a physical body, and is not truly a spirit
to begin with. And the vehicle would not be self-aware, it is after all only
something built to house the spirit's 'essense', and was never living to begin
with (as a note, no living being can serve as the homonculous for an ally
spirit - as far as I know, and as far as all the information that FASA has
made available to us the players).

> The human equivalent of the system you are proposing is a colony of
> nanobots in the body that constitute a self opperating med-kit, allowing
> an automatic first aid roll for every wound. Pretty cool, but probably
> not possible by current SR tech.

Yes, it would be possible, though there is something you are missing, it will
take time for the nanites to affect any repairs or begin healing the vehicle.

> >I like the idea that is could be connected to CMC's, but how about some
> rule guidelines here? Post to the group, let's see what happens.
>
> >> To keep the nanites around, all the rigger need do is get the basic
> materials and stick it somewhere (like the trunk or under the seat)
> where the nanites can eat away at the material, thereby building >>more
> nanites and other things.
>
> "other things" Including tanks, cyberdecks, high quality ultratech
> weapons, sentient skyscrapers, intellegent mutant nanite swarms that
> destroy humanity...

Have you considered the possibility that nanites given the simple command of
attach themselves to living beings, with the materials within the living
organism reconstruct yourselves and propagate and spread to other living
organisma. Talk about a weapon of mass destruction, and it is perfectly legal
to carry them around as long as that is not what they are to be used for.

> Read Neal Stepehensons "Diamond Age" for a clue as to the upheval caused
> by versatile, portable nanotech.

If I ever find the time, I will try to do so.
Mike
Message no. 9
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:09:21 EST
In a message dated 97-11-02 03:50:07 EST, you write:

> Actually, about 7 years ago now (maybe 6), one of my players asked me if a
> magician could put an ally in a vehicle. I told him no, when I noticed he
> was looking at the MBT Stonewall in Rigger Black Book. Truthfully, it
could
> be done, but a "homonculi" body would require some special modifications
to
> the vehicle/drone as a whole. Perhaps similar to the process used for
> "preparing objects for anchorings" (Grimoire II; page 47). Can we say
"Mark
> Up Modifier?!? Yes, I thought so too."

Keith,
Does this mean I have another modifier for Atlas?

Mike
Message no. 10
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:29:33 EST
In a message dated 97-11-02 17:03:49 EST, you write:

> Nanomechs would have to be non-self replicating if they were lacking
> in other drastic capablitities. And a resonable producer machine would
> be a freaking facility, not a vehicle component (else a faciltiy sized
> version could churn out a versatile army of nanomechs and have a similar
> impact as universal assembler nanites).

Actually, from everything theorized modern day about nanites (and from other
sci-fi shows) is that nanites can reproduce themselves from the materials that
they have on hand.

And would that not be an idea, a factory that has nothing but nanite vats, and
from the vats come out products for sale on the market, cyberware, and other
things, even vehicles.

> Re-plating worn engine surfaces, removing oil born abrasives,
> rebuilding fluids and brake panesl, maybe repairing body
> discontiniutuies (cracks and dents) might not be to far out of line.
> Rebuilding a missiled electronics bay or battery and motor system would.
> Perhaps you should make the intended capabilities clearer.

That is the one thing I should have made clear. The nanites could reproduce
almost anythig, as long as they have the right materials available to complete
the repairs, and the right skillsofts to give them access to the necessary
skills to make repairs.

> > But they would surely be able to assist in keeping various parts
> >of vehicles "up to SOTA." Also, a "NanoMECH" (I'm
copyrighting that
> one!!!)
>
> It could eliminate maintenance. Staying SOTA implies the NanoMechs
> somehow learn of and impliment vehicle design improvements.

The nanite system would only keep the vehicle in the current condition as per
the plans for the vehicle they have. For the rigger to keep the vehicle up to
SOTA, he would also need to update the nanites with the new technology to
update the components.

> Well, with very limited and specific effects, maybe, but it seems
> less effecient than just improving vehicle reliability.
> To actually repair damage by reforming a supply of base materials
> comes close to "liquid mechanic" IMO- by which i mean a swarm of
> "assembler" type nanites that perform the job of a mechanic and could be
> stored in some sort of "jar", which sounds like what you were talking
> about.

If you have a swarm of millions of nanites, yes, I could see it as being
described as a 'Liquid Mechanic.' Though initially, when a vehicle is in good
condition, the number of nanites would be few. And as the Central Control
Unit becomes aware of damage it issues the orders necessary for the nanites to
repair the component, and that would even include the creation of as many
nanites necessary to reconstruct the parts necessary.

> Re Shiawase bug- the military has smaller intellegence drones under
> develoment ALREADY, not to mention experiments where cock-roaches have
> been remote contolled by replacing thier antenea with electrodes.
> Shiawase is noted for thier counter- intellegence and shadow capbilities
> in Corp handbook.
> The "fifth element" spy-roach is not a far technological reach. A
> box full of them eating an iron block and building me a new wheel while
> I drive IS.

Umm, again, perhaps I should restate this differently, the Nano-Mech does not
confer Regeneration to a vehicle, it is only a different kind of mechanic.

> I guessas special purpose repair aids, they might be POSSIBLE, but
> they seem uneconomic compared to a good toolbox, a 3-d litho, maybe some
> waldo's, and an itneractive repair manual.

True, but a nanite would not miss the micro-fracture in the engine block which
could lead to the engine failing during moments of high stress ...

> > Suppose the medtechs simply "leave in" the nanites from the surgery
> (not the ones that use their bodies in the making of things, the others
> that guide/supervise the operations) and give a processor control unit
> attached to an Encephalon or similar unit.
>
> Re-read how Shadowtech says "Nanites" are used in
> cyber-implantation. They are engeneered bacteria guided by chemical
> cues cotrolled with NMR type devices. They die in the proces of
> producing the cyber. Not that the idea is TOTALLY bogus as a method for
> repairing / maintainig cyber, but it is not really based on any availabe
> tech.

Nanites are not genetically engineered bacteria, nanites are machines pure and
simple. Perhaps the bacteria you are referring to is Carcerands?

Also, another note on nanites being left in someone's body. Remember what
happened to the female mage in the book Dead Air? Lofwyr's favorite tool to
make sure that someone did something for him, without getting his own paws
dirty.

> >> >I like the idea that is could be connected to CMC's, but how
> >>>about some rule guidelines here?
>
> Looking at the posted suggestion, I'd say that it is far to cheap, and
> would require more maintanance than the vehicle (to replace used
> micromechs). Devices with a skill rating that can work on thier own
> (robots with semi-automous based programs) are VERY expensive in R2. A
> general vehicle BR skill allows the system to perform many tasks-
> upgrading the vehicle, building new components / vehicles, stealing/
> sabotaging other vehices, maybe defaulting to other skills.

Perhaps a compromise on the subject of cost then. A rigger would still need
to spend nuyen on getting the materials to rebuild whatever is damaged. But
with the Nano-Mech, the rigger would only need to get the base materials that
are needed for the reconstruction.

> A drone with those buggies in it would be the SHIT for security
> incursions. If there are intended limitations to the use of the skill,
> they should be made clear. One that I can see is that a human mechanic
> needs a set of tools- like a vehicle kit, shop, or facility, depending
> on the job. These nanoMECHS do the whole job themselves, with less cost
> and less bulk. Thats one HELL of a SOTA jump. I'd say they need
> various helper machines, materials production devices (like a 3-d
> litho) and extra pocesseor power to drive numerous small mechs in a
> complicated task. They would be small robots capable of cleaning,
> diagnosing, and moving vehicle parts- pretty good if you have loose
> wires or missing fluids, not good enough if you have a cracked block or
> sheared axle. Very limited material manipulation capabilites (thermite
> welding of small cracks, acid removal of locked nuts, etc), but not bulk
> materials aplication without external help.
> Actaully, a MEDKIT provides the brains (but not the brawn) needed for
> first aid. I don't see why a toolkit wouldn't as well.

A Nano-Mech is not meant to be put on a drone, it is meant for larger vehicles
.. more in another posting ...

> I unfortunately do not see vehicle reapiring nanoMechs as being the
> end result of what would be a fairly intensive R+D effort. The
> resultant know-how and hardware would have so many other profitable
> aplications, nefarious and legitimate. And the implementation seems on
> the extreme outer edge of SR tech possibility, in both AI and
> minitureization.
>
> As some sort of "pre-miltary" R+D proof of concept, it might be done
> in a lab. Sort of like those grocery shopping robots that were DARPA
> funded- you think the army cares about image recognition for the purpose
> of grocery shopping? Having runners end up with one system as the
> result of a raid on such a lab would lead to some dangerous fun, and the
> device would be easily limited in its capability. But, as i'm sure you
> realize, anything even aproaching general purpose assmbler nano-tech
> would change the entire economy and scope of your game. Otherwise,
> there are beter ways to intrduce such toys if you need nanomech type
> stuff in your game.

True, and all of the corps in the world would jump for the technology as fast
as they could.

> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Spirit silliness:

IMHO, it is not silliness ...

> >> Now, if your vehicle was the hommonculous body for an Ally
> spirit......
> <snip to reply>
> > Perhaps similar to the process used for
> >"preparing objects for anchorings" (Grimoire II; page 47). Can we say
> "Mark
> >Up Modifier?!?
>
> Good thing you squashed that one. I can see the mechanic performinmg
> "ritual of change (..ing oil)". :)
> A CAS stonewall? where the frag would s/he get one to enchant, and
> what good is it with no stats? In fact, giving it the spirits stats
> would WEAKEN it, most likely. :)

Then by not trying at all you limit yourself ... and besides, wouldn't the CAS
military love to have their Stonewall's have an additional source of magical
defense?

> Just enchanting as an anchor is WAY to easy. It says the body is
> actually a kind of Unique Spirit Fpcus, so there's that answer. Now, if
> you can enchant the vehicle as a spirit focus... Eesh, markup, and
> plenty of it if the vehicle is custom made as a virgin telesma!
> However, I don't see anything technically stopping a good enchanter from
> enchanting ANYTHING she wishes as a focus, once she has the formula
> specifieng it as the proper object type. That includes normal
> vehicles... Maybe they should include a mass modifier in the enchanting
> table?

What if instead the enchanter took the time to enchant each individual
component. It would take more time, but would also limit the number of
panzers from being the enchantment itself.
Message no. 11
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:57:09 PST
>Actually, from everything theorized modern day about nanites (and from
other
>sci-fi shows) is that nanites can reproduce themselves from the
materials that
>they have on hand.

SR 2058 tech is not as advanced as those therories and fictions
require. Else wise, the game, the economy of SR's world, and and the
natureof its plots andproblems, would be VERY different. One ofthe main
pointsofall nano-fictionis : If it can self reproduce, its life.
If its life, it can mutate. If it can mutate, we can not predict its
behavior.

>And would that not be an idea, a factory that has nothing but nanite
vats, and from the vats come out products for sale on the market,
cyberware, and other things, even vehicles.

Sure, its an IDEA. Its probaly some corp engeneers wet dream. In 2058,
the only things produced that way are food products, using natuarally
occuring "nanites" called bacteria and fungus.


>> Perhaps you should make the intended capabilities clearer.


>That is the one thing I should have made clear. The nanites could
reproduce almost anythig, as long as they have the right materials
available to complete the repairs, and the right skillsofts to give them
access to the necessary skills to make repairs.

>The nanite system would only keep the vehicle in the current condition
as per the plans for the vehicle they have. For the rigger to keep the
vehicle up to SOTA, he would also need to update the nanites with the
new technology to update the components.

Is there anything to stop somebody with this system from driving
into a country in an americar, rolling into a warehouse near a junkyard,
"updating" thier software, and rolling out in a small fleet of armed
military vehicles? With the right "software" controlling nanites, you
could concievably build anything. Material aquisition is a trival
matter, not even worth considering- the nanites do that for you.
Diamond is one of the best materials possible, and carbon is floating
around in the air. Nuclear weapons wouldrequire a very little
fisionable material to "grow", but high grade explosives, or even
"nanite" explosives, with capabilities near nuclear, would be easy.
Are you really proposing that some rigger would get such a system
just for fixing his car?


>If you have a swarm of millions of nanites, yes, I could see it as
being described as a 'Liquid Mechanic.' Though initially, when a
vehicle is in good condition, the number of nanites would be few. And
as the Central Control Unit becomes aware of damage it issues the orders
necessary for the nanites to repair the component, and that would even
include the creation of as many nanites necessary to reconstruct the
parts necessary.

And what is to stop the user from having his unit poor out tons of
nanites, creating all kinds ofnasty problems with them (like telling
them the Promethius tower and its inhabitants are a material to be used
to repair his diamond jet fighter?)
The other cental tenant of Nano-tech in fiction is that it makes
software and hardware interchangable.


>Umm, again, perhaps I should restate this differently, the Nano-Mech
does not confer Regeneration to a vehicle, it is only a different kind
of mechanic.

No, but it confers SOTA upgrades. I'd like my car upgraded to an
armed CAS Stonewall MBT, please.

>Nanites are not genetically engineered bacteria, nanites are machines
pure and simple. Perhaps the bacteria you are referring to is
Carcerands?

P 39, SHADOWTECH: "Nanites are small, single cell organisms that
come in many varieties." It then goes on to discus how incredably
limited and difficult to use these naites are in there abilities, and
how a pretty elaborate system is needed to produce anything more complex
than a lump od gold in the patients noggin.
I see no reason to expect the SOTA in vehicle repair would advance
faster than that in cyber-implementation, allowing nanites to be used
more easily for vehicle repair than cyber enhancement.
Cybertechnology mentions that perhaps nanites are used to update a
Cyber-zombies DNA. Again, i see no need for self replicating
nano-machines that can manipulate molicules. They just mean that some
bacteria that produce retro-viruses are included with theguys regular
deat-preventing drugs.

>Also, another note on nanites being left in someone's body. Remember
what happened to the female mage in the book Dead Air? Lofwyr's
favorite tool to make sure that someone did something for him, without
getting his own paws dirty.

No, I don't read a lot of FASA novels. However, I see no reason
implanting engeneered bacteria in somebody would not be plenty
threatening- the ability to turn her into the raw materials for a swarm
of self reproducing nanites is not requred fo co-ercion.

>Perhaps a compromise on the subject of cost then. A rigger would still
need to spend nuyen on getting the materials to rebuild whatever is
damaged.

<sarcasm> O boy, he's gotta trash pick. Good thing the tech isn't more
advanced, or any thing the system could build would be free. </sarcasm>

Making the sytem programable in any way leads to a load of problems.
The idea of letting it use Skillsofts is rediculous- those are meant to
interface with the human brain and some pretty pricey cyber. They are
based off simsense.
For nanites to know how to do anything complicated relating to ourscale,
they would need intellegence on the on the order of an AI.

Both the mechanical nanites and the portable intellegence to make them
useful for your purpose are a bit of a reach.

>A Nano-Mech is not meant to be put on a drone, it is meant for larger
vehicles.. more in another posting ...
>

I don't see that makes it any more feasable or less unbalancing.

>True, and all of the corps in the world would jump for the technology
as fast as they could.

And then world wide chaos the likes of which make the crash look
trivial would ensue. Nanotech, as self replicating life loose and
mutating in the real world makes a computer virus look like- well
"virtually" no problem at all.

>
>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>
>> Spirit silliness:
>
>IMHO, it is not silliness ...
>
>> A CAS stonewall? where the frag would s/he get one to enchant,
and what good is it with no stats?

>Then by not trying at all you limit yourself ... and besides, wouldn't
the CAS military love to have their Stonewall's have an additional
source of magical defense?

Yeah, I expect some limits.... and besides, a few runners are NOT
the cas military. They shouldn't be able to get or hold those resources
without somebody bigger taking them away. Conventional magic defense
would be suitable for almost all military engagements anyhow- why make
your tank an astral presence?

>What if instead the enchanter took the time to enchant each individual
component. It would take more time, but would also limit the number of
panzers from being the enchantment itself.

Yeah, like to one panzer, to be completed sometime aroud 2097. I like
it!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 12
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:09:42 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-03 06:09:35 EST, AirWisp@***.COM writes:

>
> Keith,
> Does this mean I have another modifier for Atlas?
>
> Mike
>
I think it was already paid, Karmically....

-K
Message no. 13
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:35:11 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-03 06:29:31 EST, AirWisp@***.COM writes:

> And would that not be an idea, a factory that has nothing but nanite vats,

> and
> from the vats come out products for sale on the market, cyberware, and
other
> things, even vehicles.

Please refer to "Virtuosity", with Denzel Washington for more conceptual
extraction....

> That is the one thing I should have made clear. The nanites could
reproduce
> almost anythig, as long as they have the right materials available to
> complete
> the repairs, and the right skillsofts to give them access to the necessary
> skills to make repairs.

How about this concept, the vehicle's NanoMECH can make due repairs, but
their target numbers are more than just those of the given customization
targets in the R2, but also include the damage modifier for the vehicle.
Also, given their "micronized state", the repairs may take longer, perhaps
50-100%.

> > It could eliminate maintenance. Staying SOTA implies the NanoMechs
> > somehow learn of and impliment vehicle design improvements.
>
> The nanite system would only keep the vehicle in the current condition as
> per
> the plans for the vehicle they have. For the rigger to keep the vehicle
up
> to
> SOTA, he would also need to update the nanites with the new technology to
> update the components.

Which only refers to a SOTA change within the Computer B/R (or Programming?)
test vs. all the other, nasty/costly, ones for who knows what else.

> > I guessas special purpose repair aids, they might be POSSIBLE, but
> > they seem uneconomic compared to a good toolbox, a 3-d litho, maybe
some
> > waldo's, and an itneractive repair manual.
>
> True, but a nanite would not miss the micro-fracture in the engine block
> which
> could lead to the engine failing during moments of high stress ...

Okay, here is a nastier thouht that has also been introd in the games here.
How about a Walker/Crawler robot from R2 given a Skillwire/Hardwire type
implant and access to a Tool Kit? Instead of NanoMECH we wind up with
RoboMECH (TM'd as well for the fun of it ;)

> > Re-read how Shadowtech says "Nanites" are used in
> > cyber-implantation. They are engeneered bacteria guided by chemical
> > cues cotrolled with NMR type devices. They die in the proces of
> > producing the cyber. Not that the idea is TOTALLY bogus as a method
for
> > repairing / maintainig cyber, but it is not really based on any
availabe
> > tech.
>
> Nanites are not genetically engineered bacteria, nanites are machines pure

> and
> simple. Perhaps the bacteria you are referring to is Carcerands?

Actually no, he's referring to the 'genetically engineered microsurgical
units' described on page 38 of the Shadowtech book (upper left column).
However, if you utilize those same 'bionites' to create the form layins for
'nanites' of equal scale to themselves, you get something far more versatile.

> Also, another note on nanites being left in someone's body. Remember what
> happened to the female mage in the book Dead Air? Lofwyr's favorite tool
to
> make sure that someone did something for him, without getting his own paws
> dirty.

Yes, we remember it and occasionally utilize such on our own entertainment
value (hey, we -ARE- GM's after all).

> > Looking at the posted suggestion, I'd say that it is far to cheap, and
> > would require more maintanance than the vehicle (to replace used
> > micromechs). Devices with a skill rating that can work on thier own
> > (robots with semi-automous based programs) are VERY expensive in R2. A
> > general vehicle BR skill allows the system to perform many tasks-
> > upgrading the vehicle, building new components / vehicles, stealing/
> > sabotaging other vehices, maybe defaulting to other skills.

Just a slip in note here. Skillchips and "Software Skillsofts" are not able
to "skill web hop" in our games. I thought it was a FASA ruling as well, but
can't find where I read it previously.

> Perhaps a compromise on the subject of cost then. A rigger would still
need
> to spend nuyen on getting the materials to rebuild whatever is damaged.
But
> with the Nano-Mech, the rigger would only need to get the base materials
> that
> are needed for the reconstruction.

As always, the limits are in the physical.

> > A drone with those buggies in it would be the SHIT for security
> > incursions. If there are intended limitations to the use of the skill,
> > they should be made clear. One that I can see is that a human mechanic
> > needs a set of tools- like a vehicle kit, shop, or facility, depending
> > on the job. These nanoMECHS do the whole job themselves, with less
cost
> > and less bulk. Thats one HELL of a SOTA jump. I'd say they need
> > various helper machines, materials production devices (like a 3-d
> > litho) and extra pocesseor power to drive numerous small mechs in a
> > complicated task. They would be small robots capable of cleaning,
> > diagnosing, and moving vehicle parts- pretty good if you have loose
> > wires or missing fluids, not good enough if you have a cracked block or
> > sheared axle. Very limited material manipulation capabilites (thermite
> > welding of small cracks, acid removal of locked nuts, etc), but not
bulk
> > materials aplication without external help.

The only thing in this thought that I have is that -repairs- do not
necessarily have the same problems/requirements in actual building. But that
would require LOTS of GM intervention/rulings.

> > Actaully, a MEDKIT provides the brains (but not the brawn) needed
for
> > first aid. I don't see why a toolkit wouldn't as well.

Perhaps it does, but it definitely something that isn't mentioned in the
rules. (yet another slip up perhaps?)

> A Nano-Mech is not meant to be put on a drone, it is meant for larger
> vehicles
> ... more in another posting ...
>
> > I unfortunately do not see vehicle reapiring nanoMechs as being the
> > end result of what would be a fairly intensive R+D effort. The
> > resultant know-how and hardware would have so many other profitable
> > aplications, nefarious and legitimate. And the implementation seems on
> > the extreme outer edge of SR tech possibility, in both AI and
> > minitureization.

Miniaturization, perhaps yes. AI? That would have -nothing- to do with it.
At least within the realm of possibilities we have suggested.

> > As some sort of "pre-miltary" R+D proof of concept, it might be
done
> > in a lab. Sort of like those grocery shopping robots that were DARPA
> > funded- you think the army cares about image recognition for the
purpose
> > of grocery shopping? Having runners end up with one system as the
> > result of a raid on such a lab would lead to some dangerous fun, and
the
> > device would be easily limited in its capability. But, as i'm sure you
> > realize, anything even aproaching general purpose assmbler nano-tech
> > would change the entire economy and scope of your game. Otherwise,
> > there are beter ways to intrduce such toys if you need nanomech type
> > stuff in your game.

Such as?

> True, and all of the corps in the world would jump for the technology as
> fast
> as they could.

Which would end up leveling out the playing field yet again.

> > >> Now, if your vehicle was the hommonculous body for an Ally
> > spirit......
> > <snip to reply>
> > > Perhaps similar to the process used for
> > >"preparing objects for anchorings" (Grimoire II; page 47). Can
we say
> > "Mark
> > >Up Modifier?!?
> >
> > Good thing you squashed that one. I can see the mechanic
performinmg
> > "ritual of change (..ing oil)". :)

You actually have -NO- idea. Imagine if you will a Free Spirit ally for a
magician who once was part of an MBT Unit from the CAS. Gains Wealth upon
going 'Free'. Now imagine what 'it' can come up with over time. All that
exposure to all those people and stranger situations. Hell, because of the
military contract, the mage gave over the formula to his superiors (a copy
anyway), and the military have their own ideas of 'drafting.'

> > A CAS stonewall? where the frag would s/he get one to enchant, and
> > what good is it with no stats? In fact, giving it the spirits stats
> > would WEAKEN it, most likely. :)

I agree, but you can imagine the ideas that they had. Hey, -they- were
players after all.

> > Just enchanting as an anchor is WAY to easy. It says the body is
> > actually a kind of Unique Spirit Fpcus, so there's that answer. Now,
if
> > you can enchant the vehicle as a spirit focus... Eesh, markup, and
> > plenty of it if the vehicle is custom made as a virgin telesma!
> > However, I don't see anything technically stopping a good enchanter
from
> > enchanting ANYTHING she wishes as a focus, once she has the formula
> > specifieng it as the proper object type. That includes normal
> > vehicles... Maybe they should include a mass modifier in the enchanting
> > table?

It is something I have considered in the past, using the "Fix" and "Magic
Fingers" spells as guidelines.

> What if instead the enchanter took the time to enchant each individual
> component. It would take more time, but would also limit the number of
> panzers from being the enchantment itself.

Actually, just ignore the 'virgin telesma' modifiers and go for the 'object
of power' idea instead. Suddenly that "Clairvoyance Focus" that is the
goggles of the tank takes on new meaning....
-K
Message no. 14
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:27:24 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-04 18:37:31 EST, Mongoose/Landsquid wrote:

> SR 2058 tech is not as advanced as those therories and fictions
> require. Else wise, the game, the economy of SR's world, and and the
> natureof its plots andproblems, would be VERY different. One ofthe main
> pointsofall nano-fictionis : If it can self reproduce, its life.
> If its life, it can mutate. If it can mutate, we can not predict its
> behavior.

I would call SR pretty far advanced, and utterly capable of having machine
nanites, and no, the nanites would not be sentient, as their programming is
limited to what the Central Control Unit has in it's own memory ...

> Is there anything to stop somebody with this system from driving
> into a country in an americar, rolling into a warehouse near a junkyard,
> "updating" thier software, and rolling out in a small fleet of armed
> military vehicles? With the right "software" controlling nanites, you
> could concievably build anything. Material aquisition is a trival
> matter, not even worth considering- the nanites do that for you.
> Diamond is one of the best materials possible, and carbon is floating
> around in the air. Nuclear weapons wouldrequire a very little
> fisionable material to "grow", but high grade explosives, or even
> "nanite" explosives, with capabilities near nuclear, would be easy.
> Are you really proposing that some rigger would get such a system
> just for fixing his car?

There are a couple of things keeping a rigger from doing exactly what you
have just described. First, the amount of time that it would take for the
nanites to make an entire fleet of vehicles. Second, not all of the material
in the junkyard is really usable (ain't rust wonderful). Third, people would
find out what the rigger is doing and decide that they want the vehicles for
themselves.

And, yes, I would propose that this system be primarily meant for a rigger to
repair their vehicle.

> And what is to stop the user from having his unit poor out tons of
> nanites, creating all kinds ofnasty problems with them (like telling
> them the Promethius tower and its inhabitants are a material to be used
> to repair his diamond jet fighter?)
> The other cental tenant of Nano-tech in fiction is that it makes
> software and hardware interchangable.

The only thing stopping a person from using nanites in such a way determines
whether the person is going to be a THREAT or not ... simple ... and how
hunted the person will become ... something else also along those lines,
though nanites could be used as a Weapon of Mass Destruction, the only
problem is that they are also a two-edged sword, not only will they get the
enemy, but they could also nail all of my people also.

> >Umm, again, perhaps I should restate this differently, the Nano-Mech
> does not confer Regeneration to a vehicle, it is only a different kind
> of mechanic.
>
> No, but it confers SOTA upgrades. I'd like my car upgraded to an
> armed CAS Stonewall MBT, please.

Okay, let's see someone manage to get their hands on the blueprints for a
Stonewall then ... would be one heck of a run though ... anyone up to it?

> >Nanites are not genetically engineered bacteria, nanites are machines
> pure and simple. Perhaps the bacteria you are referring to is
> Carcerands?
>
> P 39, SHADOWTECH: "Nanites are small, single cell organisms that
> come in many varieties." It then goes on to discus how incredably
> limited and difficult to use these naites are in there abilities, and
> how a pretty elaborate system is needed to produce anything more complex
> than a lump od gold in the patients noggin.

Though you are very correct, but that is also describing the size of them ...
nanites are not living things, as I said above, they are MACHINES ...

> I see no reason to expect the SOTA in vehicle repair would advance
> faster than that in cyber-implementation, allowing nanites to be used
> more easily for vehicle repair than cyber enhancement.

Oh, really? I can see the SOTA advancement for vehicles going through the
roof if magic is also applied in the repairing of vehicles ... for instance,
a mage who uses the Fix spell on a car has increased the SOTA level by one
point, simply by using the spell on a vehicle ...

> Cybertechnology mentions that perhaps nanites are used to update a
> Cyber-zombies DNA. Again, i see no need for self replicating
> nano-machines that can manipulate molicules. They just mean that some
> bacteria that produce retro-viruses are included with theguys regular
> deat-preventing drugs.

I can see the reason for using nanites with zombies, to help stem the flow of
the cancer which normally kills all zombies in a couple of years.

> Making the sytem programable in any way leads to a load of problems.
> The idea of letting it use Skillsofts is rediculous- those are meant to
> interface with the human brain and some pretty pricey cyber. They are
> based off simsense.
> For nanites to know how to do anything complicated relating to ourscale,
> they would need intellegence on the on the order of an AI.

How about instead of an AI, use as a basis the Sentry Gun System from Fields
of Fire and the NeoA Guide to Real Life, just change the programming from a
Gunnery skill to a Build/Repair Skill ... and voila, the Central Control Unit
...
Message no. 15
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:40:14 -0500
At 01:27 AM 11/6/97 -0500, you wrote:

>I would call SR pretty far advanced, and utterly capable of having machine
>nanites, and no, the nanites would not be sentient, as their programming is
>limited to what the Central Control Unit has in it's own memory ...
The problem with nanites, true mechanical nanites, is their implications.
Since you can use nanites to assemble many more nanites, fairly rapidly
(think of a growing population, the statistics are similar) youcan end up
with a great many nanites very quickly. This means that you rapidly
increase your ability to produce things... The world of 2050, if nanites
were possible technology even for the wealthy megacorps alone, would be
almost completely different. For examples of what nanites might be put to
used for, and reasoning on what they could accomplish, see K. Eric
Drexler's "Engines of Creation".


>There are a couple of things keeping a rigger from doing exactly what you
>have just described. First, the amount of time that it would take for the
>nanites to make an entire fleet of vehicles. Second, not all of the material
>in the junkyard is really usable (ain't rust wonderful). Third, people would
>find out what the rigger is doing and decide that they want the vehicles for
>themselves.
>
>And, yes, I would propose that this system be primarily meant for a rigger to
>repair their vehicle.

The problem being, if a rigger can attach it to a car, a corp *can* use it,
cheaply, to produce a ridiculous plethora of items... Production of
anything becomes easy, given materials, as the nanites will even do the
work of converting materials to proper states for construction.


losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NHfsSLusOH5Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome.
Message no. 16
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:12:54 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-06 01:43:50 EST, you write:

> >And, yes, I would propose that this system be primarily meant for a rigger
to
> >repair their vehicle.
>
> The problem being, if a rigger can attach it to a car, a corp *can* use
it,
> cheaply, to produce a ridiculous plethora of items... Production of
> anything becomes easy, given materials, as the nanites will even do the
> work of converting materials to proper states for construction.

Ah, the wonders of technology, alll the automation in the world means nothing
if there is no one capable of buying your product. So, the worker will never
be truly pushed aside, retrained perhaps, but never gotten rid of.

Mike
Message no. 17
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:57:09 -0500
At 06-Nov-97 wrote Mike Bobroff:


>Okay, let's see someone manage to get their hands on the blueprints for a
>Stonewall then ... would be one heck of a run though ... anyone up to it?

No need to make a run for it, I own a Stonewall :)

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Evil Overlord advice #50:

My main computers will have their own special operating system
that will be completely incompatible with standard IBM and
Macintosh powerbooks.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:12:57 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-06 11:14:52 EST, you write:

> >Okay, let's see someone manage to get their hands on the blueprints for a
> >Stonewall then ... would be one heck of a run though ... anyone up to it?
>
> No need to make a run for it, I own a Stonewall :)
>
> --
>
Congrats Barbie, hope the CAS is still not hunting you down for it though ...

Mike
Message no. 19
From: lucifer <lucifer@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:19:58 -0600
Barbie wrote:

> No need to make a run for it, I own a Stonewall :)
>

Uhhhmmmm.......... yeah.

Lucifer
Prince of Darkness, Eater of Souls

"One owes respect to the living. To the Dead one owes
only Truth."--Voltaire

"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they
do suggest at first with heavenly shows."--Shakespeare,
from 'Othello'
Message no. 20
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:53:20 -0500
At 06-Nov-97 wrote Mike Bobroff:

>> No need to make a run for it, I own a Stonewall :)
>>
>> --
>>
>Congrats Barbie, hope the CAS is still not hunting you down for it though ...

I think we have hidden our tracks quiet well.
And only a handfull people know that I was involved in it, and noone knows
that I have one of these.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Evil Overlord advice #50:

My main computers will have their own special operating system
that will be completely incompatible with standard IBM and
Macintosh powerbooks.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 21
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:23:04 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-06 01:44:10 EST, losthalo@********.COM writes:

> At 01:27 AM 11/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >I would call SR pretty far advanced, and utterly capable of having
machine
> >nanites, and no, the nanites would not be sentient, as their programming
is
> >limited to what the Central Control Unit has in it's own memory ...

> The problem with nanites, true mechanical nanites, is their implications.
> Since you can use nanites to assemble many more nanites, fairly rapidly
> (think of a growing population, the statistics are similar) youcan end up
> with a great many nanites very quickly. This means that you rapidly
> increase your ability to produce things... The world of 2050, if nanites
> were possible technology even for the wealthy megacorps alone, would be
> almost completely different. For examples of what nanites might be put to
> used for, and reasoning on what they could accomplish, see K. Eric
> Drexler's "Engines of Creation".

The problem with this entire argument is that everyone else seems to be
making these huge, hyperdrastio leaps in reasoning -BEHIND- the Nanite
Concept. Mike, who got the idea from me here, isn't out to create a
collective community consciousness. He's out to create a build/repair system
for a vehicle and take the now expanded rules even farther out, finishing the
badly needed flushing out.

-I- am the one who made the reference to keeping up with SOTA using them, NOT
Mike. -I- was refering to the ability for Nanites to implement minor changes
in engine tuning, DBW, fuel-to-air intermix, etcetera. I wasn't stating
anywhere that a vehicle could literally "SOTA Upgrade" the chassis to
something entirely different.

Everyone who has gotten into this argument so far is viewing Nanites as the
Masters of NIgh ALL Creation. In many science fiction genre's/settings, they
damn well are. BUT, NOT in the suggestions made.

> The problem being, if a rigger can attach it to a car, a corp *can* use
it,
> cheaply, to produce a ridiculous plethora of items... Production of
> anything becomes easy, given materials, as the nanites will even do the
> work of converting materials to proper states for construction.

Okay then, give the definition of the programming necessary for such. Mike
is suggesting that a CPU has a "B/R" skill reflective of the vehicle in
question. The Nanites in question, themselves do NOT have any real memory of
their own.

Also, nanites that are created for a specific vehicle or class of vehicles is
NOT all around versatile in any vehicle. Upgrades/Alteratiosn to the CPU
would -have- to come first. Also, Versatility factors beyond the "Learning
Pool" in R2 for Robots would have be developed. Remember, the Nanites in ALL
of those books I have heard as suggested reading had the design
implementations of "self improvement", which evolved into "Self
Development"
and then "AIdom".

Guys, look at it for the idea it is, and for once, do not extrapolate the
idea beyond the idea too far, lest you lose sight of the vision.

-K
Message no. 22
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:18:00 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-06 18:25:08 EST, barbie@**********.COM writes:

>
> I think we have hidden our tracks quiet well.
> And only a handfull people know that I was involved in it, and noone knows
> that I have one of these.
>
Humor Mode Engaged

(Silent Clearing-of-ones-throat sound comes from the guy with the hat)....

-K
Message no. 23
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic and Technology (Vehicular Nano-Doc)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:11:00 GMT
on 04.11.97 landsquid@*******.COM wrote:

l> SR 2058 tech is not as advanced as those therories and fictions
l> require. Else wise, the game, the economy of SR's world, and and the
l> natureof its plots andproblems, would be VERY different. One ofthe main
l> pointsofall nano-fictionis : If it can self reproduce, its life.
l> If its life, it can mutate. If it can mutate, we can not predict its
l> behavior.

Well, the big bad problem about nanites is gray goo: You have a single
nanite programmed to reproduve itself out of whatever it can find. So
after some time, the whole planet is transformed into nanites. Gray goo.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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