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Message no. 1
From: Keldon Mor Keldon@********.net
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 02:16:34 -0600
Another question that's been bugging me. How do any of you handle
Barriers (especially the Barrier Spell)? The spell states that if the
Barrier is penetrated, it drops. Does this mean you can't fire through it
and can only fire to bring it down? In either case, against fire arms, do
you use twice the barrier rating or the normal rating (for the spell) and do
you use the Base power of the weapon or not.
As for all types of barriers, why does it state that if you are
attacking through a barrier, blunt weapons use the normal rating and edge
weapons use twice the rating but for bringing down a barrier melee attacks
use twice the rating? Also it states that firearms use twice the barrier
rating to bring down a barrier, do you use the standard barrier rating then
for firing through? (it says to use the adjusted barrier rating, adjusted
for what?)
I would like to make a list of what types of attacks do what against
what type of barriers etc...help anyone?

Peace,
Keldon@********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
Message no. 2
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:40:31 +0100
> Keldon Mor [SMTP:Keldon@********.net] wrote:
>
> Another question that's been bugging me. How do any of you handle
>Barriers (especially the Barrier Spell)? The spell states that if the
>Barrier is penetrated, it drops. Does this mean you can't fire through
it
>and can only fire to bring it down?
Yes, at least that is the way I use it in my game sessions.

>In either case, against fire arms, do
>you use twice the barrier rating or the normal rating (for the spell)
and do
>you use the Base power of the weapon or not.
I use twice the barrier rating, since SR3 states to use default barrier
rules. However I use the modified power of the weapon, barriers are not
hardened armor (IMO).

> As for all types of barriers, why does it state that if you are
>attacking through a barrier, blunt weapons use the normal rating and
edge
>weapons use twice the rating but for bringing down a barrier melee
attacks
>use twice the rating?
I think because blunt weapons do more damage in a sense that the
force/strength of the weapon is applied along a larger surface than
edged weapons thereby making a barrier more vulnerable to blunt weapons.
(fi. tearing down a wall is much easier with a sledgehammer than with
bullets).

> Also it states that firearms use twice the barrier
>rating to bring down a barrier, do you use the standard barrier rating
then
>for firing through? (it says to use the adjusted barrier rating,
adjusted
>for what?)
> I would like to make a list of what types of attacks do what
against
>what type of barriers etc...help anyone?

I don't allow firing through magical barriers since (IMO) they can be
treated as some kind of force field and the force is divided evenly
across the barrier.

They only problem I still haven't figured out is how to treat the effect
of damaging spells against barriers (fi. physical combat spells or
damaging elemental spells). If you use the rules of barrier rating
against the power rating of the spell then you would have to be a pretty
nasty combat mage before even considering scratching the barrier.
Anyone has any suggestions on this?

Sven ;-)
Message no. 3
From: Kelson Kelson@****.net
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 06:48:54 -0600
> From: Sven De Herdt <Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be>
> To: 'shadowrn@*********.org'
> Subject: RE: Magic Barriers (spell)
> Date: Thursday, March 25, 1999 5:40 AM

<Snip>

> They only problem I still haven't figured out is how to treat the effect
> of damaging spells against barriers (fi. physical combat spells or
> damaging elemental spells). If you use the rules of barrier rating
> against the power rating of the spell then you would have to be a pretty
> nasty combat mage before even considering scratching the barrier.
> Anyone has any suggestions on this?

IIRC, many of the barrier spells state that they increase the TN for
spellcasting across the barrier. You can't target the barrier with a spell
because you can't target a spell with a spell. For example, a Mana Barrier
makes it more difficult to target anything on the other side of it. Thus,
the end result is that you have to cast your spells at a higher TN to
successfully zap someone on the other side. You can also try to kick/punch
the barrier to take it down because it also stops people from physically
passing through it.

> Sven ;-)

Justin
Message no. 4
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:02:33 +0100
> Kelson [SMTP:Kelson@****.net] wrote:
>
>IIRC, many of the barrier spells state that they increase the TN for
>spellcasting across the barrier. You can't target the barrier with a
spell
>because you can't target a spell with a spell. For example, a Mana
Barrier
>makes it more difficult to target anything on the other side of it.
Thus,
>the end result is that you have to cast your spells at a higher TN to
>successfully zap someone on the other side. You can also try to
kick/punch
>the barrier to take it down because it also stops people from
physically
>passing through it.

>Justin

What about physical barriers, you should be able to target these kind of
barriers. Even the physical barrier spell creates a visible shielding.


Sven ;-)
Message no. 5
From: Kelson kelson13@***********.com
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 05:49:14 -0800
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:02:33 Sven De Herdt wrote:

>What about physical barriers, you should be able to target these kind of
>barriers. Even the physical barrier spell creates a visible shielding.

IIRC, all barriers create a visible shielding around the magician (remember that all
Barrier spells are Manipulation spells and exist primarily in the physical plane). You
still can't target them with a spell, however, because you can't cast a spell at a spell.
When you try to cast a spell at someone on the other side of a spell-impeding barrier
(Mana Barrier, Spell Barrier, etc.) you are casting across the barrier, not at it. Think
of it as magical interference in that it makes it harder to target someone on the other
side.

You can always attack the Barrier in Astral Space (risky) or attempt to Disspell it (if
you're Initiated), but you can't target it with another spell.

However, there is a spell called Shattershield which is designed to destroy barrier
spells. This goes against previous information that states you cannot target a spell with
another spell. *shrug* Maybe they changed their minds or perhaps this is an exception to
the rules. I don't Shattershield in my campaign because I don't like lots of exceptions
and prefer to keep a solid, logical set of rules that exist well together. YMMV.

>Sven ;-)

Justin


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Message no. 6
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:43:58 +0100
> Kelson [SMTP:kelson13@***********.com] wrote:
>
>On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:02:33 Sven De Herdt wrote:

>>What about physical barriers, you should be able to target these kind
of
>>barriers. Even the physical barrier spell creates a visible
shielding.

>IIRC, all barriers create a visible shielding around the magician
(remember that all Barrier spells are Manipulation spells and exist
>primarily in the physical plane). You still can't target them with a
spell, however, because you can't cast a spell at a spell. When >you
try to cast a spell at someone on the other side of a spell-impeding
barrier (Mana Barrier, Spell Barrier, etc.) you are casting >across the
barrier, not at it. Think of it as magical interference in that it
makes it harder to target someone on the other side.

You're right, I just forgot and got everything confused. Sorry, should
have understood it in your initial reply.

>>Sven ;-)

>Justin

How would you handle physical combat spells and elemental damage against
physical obstructions with a barrier rating, like walls, glass doors,
cars,...

Sven ;-)
Message no. 7
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:43:29 +1100
At 02:16 25/03/99 -0600, Keldon Mor wrote:
> Another question that's been bugging me. How do any of you handle
>Barriers (especially the Barrier Spell)? The spell states that if the
>Barrier is penetrated, it drops. Does this mean you can't fire through it
>and can only fire to bring it down? In either case, against fire arms, do
>you use twice the barrier rating or the normal rating (for the spell) and do
>you use the Base power of the weapon or not.

I interpret "penetrated" to mean Breaking Through as per page 125, not Firing
Through as per page 124. In everything else, I treat the Physical Barrier spell
like physical walls with all the associated rules. So, a character can fire at
targets on the other side of the Physical Barrier as long as his weapon's base
power exceeds the barrier's force. If, on the other hand, the character is
trying to break through, i.e. penetrate the Physical Barrier, he bases his
calculations on twice the force of the Physical Barrier. If he succeeds (for
which he needs an appropriately big weapon with a high base power) the spell
collapses.

> As for all types of barriers, why does it state that if you are
>attacking through a barrier, blunt weapons use the normal rating and edge
>weapons use twice the rating but for bringing down a barrier melee attacks
>use twice the rating? Also it states that firearms use twice the barrier

The idea seams to be that punching through a barrier to attack a target is
easier for solid, heavy, blunt weapons as compared to swords and knives.
However, I thing I'll put any polearm or big sword (e.g. Claymores,
Zweihanders) in with blunt weapons for this rule.

When it comes to actually breaking through a barrier, I thing the idea is that
melee attacks are much less effective than demolitions or rockets.

>rating to bring down a barrier, do you use the standard barrier rating then
>for firing through? (it says to use the adjusted barrier rating, adjusted
>for what?)

Yes, the base barrier rating is used for firing through with firearms. I think
the "adjusted" adjective, in the Firing Through section, is used to include
previous attacks possibly having reduced the barrier rating.







Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 8
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:43:05 +1100
At 12:40 25/03/99 +0100, Sven De Herdt wrote:
>They only problem I still haven't figured out is how to treat the effect
>of damaging spells against barriers (fi. physical combat spells or
>damaging elemental spells). If you use the rules of barrier rating
>against the power rating of the spell then you would have to be a pretty
>nasty combat mage before even considering scratching the barrier.
>Anyone has any suggestions on this?

For physical combat spells, it doesn't matter. The spell does not travel
between the magician to the target so the barrier, except for visibility target
modifiers, is irrelevant.

For elemental manipulation spells - according to page 182 the Firing Through
Barriers rules are used. So, if the force of the elemental manipulation does
not at least equal the barrier rating, then it's stopped cold. If the spell's
force equals or exceeds the barrier rating, then the attack test is resolved as
per normal with the target gaining an armour bonus equal to the barrier rating.






Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 9
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:01:44 +1100
At 05:49 25/03/99 -0800, Kelson wrote:
>You can always attack the Barrier in Astral Space (risky) or attempt to
>Disspell it (if you're Initiated), but you can't target it with another spell.

Dispelling is no longer an Initiate's ability in SR3, anyone capable of Sorcery
can do it.






Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 10
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:02:51 +0100
> Chris Maxfield [SMTP:cmaxfiel@****.org.au] wrote:
>
>At 12:40 25/03/99 +0100, Sven De Herdt wrote:
>>They only problem I still haven't figured out is how to treat the
effect
>>of damaging spells against barriers (fi. physical combat spells or
>>damaging elemental spells). If you use the rules of barrier rating
>>against the power rating of the spell then you would have to be a
pretty
>>nasty combat mage before even considering scratching the barrier.
>>Anyone has any suggestions on this?


>For elemental manipulation spells - according to page 182 the Firing
Through
>Barriers rules are used. So, if the force of the elemental manipulation
does
>not at least equal the barrier rating, then it's stopped cold. If the
spell's
>force equals or exceeds the barrier rating, then the attack test is
resolved as
>per normal with the target gaining an armour bonus equal to the barrier
rating.

Do you take the elemental effect into consideration or do you just use
the barrier rating? I would think that an fire spell would do more
damage to a wooden barrier than the electrical elemental effect!?

You would still need a pretty powerful mage to break through most
barriers, doesn't this seem a bit of scale?

Sven ;-)
Message no. 11
From: Kelson kelson13@***********.com
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:59:08 -0800
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:43:58 Sven De Herdt wrote:

>How would you handle physical combat spells and elemental damage against
>physical obstructions with a barrier rating, like walls, glass doors,
>cars,...

Well, speaking specifically about non-manipulation spells, the obstruction only adds cover
to the target. Remember, only Manipulation spells transverse the distance between the
caster and the target in physical space. All other spells travel on the Astral Plane to
their target, so a wall in between the caster and target doesn't matter except to
determine how difficult it is to see your target. If you can't see your target, they
can't be the target of any non-manipulation spell. So, if someone is hiding behind a
crate or some such, but is partially sticking out, give them partial cover and add this to
the target number to successfully cast the spell. All else is the same.

With a Manipulation spell, you can target an empty point in space if you like (the empty
space just to the right of the back of that crate Mr. Target is hiding behind, for
example). This doesn't impact your target number for succeeding in any way. However, the
cover and armor between the target and the spell when it goes off applies to the damage
resistance test.

Clear as mud?

>Sven ;-)

Justin :)


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Message no. 12
From: Ken Hart satyr9@********.com
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:21:47 -0800
On Thursday, March 25, thus did Sven De Herdt <Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be> speak:

>> Keldon Mor [SMTP:Keldon@********.net] wrote:
>>
>> Another question that's been bugging me. How do any of you handle
>>Barriers (especially the Barrier Spell)? The spell states that if the
>>Barrier is penetrated, it drops. Does this mean you can't fire through
>>it and can only fire to bring it down?
[Sven's reply:]
>Yes, at least that is the way I use it in my game sessions.

The description of the spell does say "Attacks directed through a barrier have a
Visibility Modifier of +1," which implies that attacks *can* be directed through a
Barrier spell. (If you're using a house rule, then that's of course different.) Everyone
on the other side of the Barrier would effectively add the Barrier's Rating to any
appropriate Armor Rating when determining the Power of the incoming attack.

[Keldon's question:]
>>In either case, against fire arms, do
>>you use twice the barrier rating or the normal rating (for the spell)
>>and do you use the Base power of the weapon or not.
[Sven's reply:]
>I use twice the barrier rating, since SR3 states to use default barrier
>rules. However I use the modified power of the weapon, barriers are not
>hardened armor (IMO).

Agreed, although anyone with firearms would probably attempt to shoot the targets on the
other side, and let someone else (say, a mage buddy) worry about taking down the Barrier.

[SNIP section about why blunt weapons are more effective than firearms at taking down
barriers.]

Again, agreed. It's explained on p. 125 of SR3.

[Keldon's question:]
>> Also it states that firearms use twice the barrier
>>rating to bring down a barrier, do you use the standard barrier rating
>>then for firing through? (it says to use the adjusted barrier
>>rating, adjusted for what?)
>> I would like to make a list of what types of attacks do what
>>against what type of barriers etc...help anyone?
[Sven's reply:]
>I don't allow firing through magical barriers since (IMO) they can be
>treated as some kind of force field and the force is divided evenly
>across the barrier.

Again, though, the fact that the spell description includes a Visibility Modifier implies
that you can fire through a Barrier spell.

[Sven's comment:]
>They only problem I still haven't figured out is how to treat the effect
>of damaging spells against barriers (fi. physical combat spells or
>damaging elemental spells). If you use the rules of barrier rating
>against the power rating of the spell then you would have to be a pretty
>nasty combat mage before even considering scratching the barrier.
>Anyone has any suggestions on this?

The "Breaking Through" section on p. 125 of SR3 says that you would use the
normal Barrier Rating against elemental Manipulation spells and double the rating against
standard Combat spells (like Powerball). One mage with a hefty Fireball or Lightning Bolt
would have a tough time getting through a Barrier spell, but two mages (or a mage and some
strong assistance) would have a decent shot at knocking it down.

Best Wishes,

Ken Hart
Owner of BABY #731
satyr9@********.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~evilweb/
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"I think so, Brain, but why would anyone want to see
Snow White and the Seven Samurai?"


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Message no. 13
From: Keldon Mor Keldon@********.net
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:32:15 -0600
> >> Another question that's been bugging me. How do any of you handle
> >>Barriers (especially the Barrier Spell)? The spell states that if the
> >>Barrier is penetrated, it drops. Does this mean you can't fire through
> >>it and can only fire to bring it down?
> [Sven's reply:]
> >Yes, at least that is the way I use it in my game sessions.
>
> The description of the spell does say "Attacks directed through a barrier
have a Visibility Modifier of +1," which implies that attacks *can* be
directed through a Barrier spell. (If you're using a house rule, then that's
of course different.) Everyone on the other side of the Barrier would
effectively add the Barrier's Rating to any appropriate Armor Rating when
determining the Power of the incoming attack.

So if someone is just firing through the barrier at targets on the other
side, does this still damage the barrier? I don't see what the difference
would be (in effecting the barrier) if someone shot through or at a barrier.

On manipulation spells, what does a force 8 Flamethrower do to a force 6
barrier spell? And does it matter what the damage level is? Do you only pit
force Vs force? In astral space a spell Vs. barrier reduces the force 1
point per damage level i.e.. 1,2,3,4 for L,M,S,D.

Peace,
Keldon@********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
Message no. 14
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:50:47 -0600
:>What about physical barriers, you should be able to target these kind of
:>barriers. Even the physical barrier spell creates a visible shielding.
:
:IIRC, all barriers create a visible shielding around the magician
(remember that all Barrier spells are Manipulation spells and exist
primarily in the physical plane). You still can't target them with a
spell, however, because you can't cast a spell at a spell.

You would not be targeting a spell; you would be targetting a barrier
created by a spell. You can, for example, target "shapecahgnged"
characters with spells (and if you succeded, you may change thier "shape",
or at least add some red to thier color).
The "Barrier" spells just create walls of force that act like any
other physical barrier. Its not THAT complicated. I wouldn't let combat
spells do much to them (but then, they don't stop them, either), but DM's
would make big holes just like bullets or explosives would.


:However, there is a spell called Shattershield which is designed to
destroy barrier spells. This goes against previous information that
states you cannot target a spell with another spell. *shrug* Maybe they
changed their minds or perhaps this is an exception to the rules. I don't
Shattershield in my campaign because I don't like lots of exceptions and
prefer to keep a solid, logical set of rules that exist well together.
YMMV.


Shattershield works against ASTRAL barriers, which are not spells.
Though there is a spell which creates a magic barrier, there are also many
other such barriers; wards, lodges, hermetic circles...
Its obvious from your previous comments that you have "barriers" and
"astral barriers" in general confused; "barriers" do not add to the TN
of
cating spells, except that their create a "shimmering" which adds a vision
penalty. "Astral Barriers" disrupt the manipulation of mana, and directly
add to the TN of spells cast across them- but have no effect on
non-magical attacks, of course.

Mongoose
Message no. 15
From: Kelson kelson13@***********.com
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:34:36 -0800
On Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:50:47 Mongoose wrote:

> You would not be targeting a spell; you would be targetting a barrier
>created by a spell. You can, for example, target "shapecahgnged"
>characters with spells (and if you succeded, you may change thier "shape",
>or at least add some red to thier color).
> The "Barrier" spells just create walls of force that act like any
>other physical barrier. Its not THAT complicated. I wouldn't let combat
>spells do much to them (but then, they don't stop them, either), but DM's
>would make big holes just like bullets or explosives would.

I agree about the Manipulation spells. However, Barriers created by spells are sustained
- not permanent. Thus, you are still targeting the spell. Your example of the
Shapechange spell isn't applicable because the 2 are different. Here's how: You can
still target someone under the effects of a Shapechange spell because the spell doesn't
alter their aura. It's only altered their physical form. Thus, you are still targeting
their aura as usual. With a Barrier spell, you can still target people on the other side
of the Barrier, but you may or may not have modifiers applied to your TN for doing so,
depending on the type of Barrier spell in place. You can't target a spell with a spell.
Thus, you can't take down a Mana Barrier spell with a combat spell. You could, however,
take it out with a Manipulation spell (since you can target anything with those - even
empty points in space).

> Shattershield works against ASTRAL barriers, which are not spells.
>Though there is a spell which creates a magic barrier, there are also many
>other such barriers; wards, lodges, hermetic circles...

Yes, there are many types of barriers. However, according to the spell's description,
Shattershield affects all types of magical barriers, including wards and other astral
barriers. It has special requirements when being used specifically against astral
barriers (such as wards or mana barriers), but it is not limited to affecting just them.

> Its obvious from your previous comments that you have "barriers" and
>"astral barriers" in general confused; "barriers" do not add to
the TN of
>cating spells, except that their create a "shimmering" which adds a vision
>penalty. "Astral Barriers" disrupt the manipulation of mana, and directly
>add to the TN of spells cast across them- but have no effect on
>non-magical attacks, of course.

This is incorrect. Only one type of barrier spell incurs the +1 vision modifier - and
that's the plain old Barrier spell (sometimes referred to as Physical Barrier). None of
the other barrier spells mention this modifier (not that I think this is the way it should
be).

The Mana Barrier specifically states in it's description that you "add 1/2 the Force
of the spell (the barrier rating) to the target numbers of all magicians casting spells
across the barrier". The Spell Barrier spell claims to be "similar to the Mana
Barrier spell" except it only protects against spells. This implies that you would
follow the same rule of adding 1/2 the Force of the spell to all TNs for casting spells
across the barrier.

Please look up your information before posting to this group when quoting
"facts". It can be very confusing for someone to read several renditions of the
same rule - all listed as canon.

>Mongoose

Justin


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Message no. 16
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:41:02 +1100
At 03:43 25/03/99 +0100, Sven De Herdt wrote:
>How would you handle physical combat spells and elemental damage against
>physical obstructions with a barrier rating, like walls, glass doors,
>cars,...

SR3 rules cover vehicles. For physical combat spells, the spell force must
exceed the vehicle's armour rating else it can have no effect. If it exceeds
the vehicle's armour then the target number is equal to 8 + body + half armour.
Since it's not resisted, the spell takes effect if just one success is rolled.
Elemental manipulations suffer the same mods versus vehicles as firearms, i.e.
the damage level is reduced by one and the force is halved. The force of the
spell is further reduced by an amount equal to the vehicle's armour rating. If
this final, reduced force does not exceed the vehicle's armour rating then the
spell can have no effect. Other than that, the base target number is 4, the
spell is unresisted and successes stage up.

The problem, though, for everything else is that it's hard to decide what the
different damage levels mean for inert, inanimate objects. A character or
vehicle taking deadly damage is still, usually, in one piece but no longer
"functioning". So what does deadly damage mean for a wall? SR3 does not explain
this. In the end, I've decided to treat all damaging spells (combat and
elemental manipulations) as working like a Ram spell when targeted against
barriers. That is, the number of Sorcery successes are added to the Force of
the spell and compared to the barrier rating (doubled versus combat spells)
using the Barrier Effect table on page 124 to determine the result.






Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 17
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:12:36 +1100
At 04:02 25/03/99 +0100, Sven De Herdt wrote:
>>not at least equal the barrier rating, then it's stopped cold. If the spell's
>>force equals or exceeds the barrier rating, then the attack test is resolved
as
>>per normal with the target gaining an armour bonus equal to the barrier
rating.
>
>Do you take the elemental effect into consideration or do you just use
>the barrier rating? I would think that an fire spell would do more
>damage to a wooden barrier than the electrical elemental effect!?

I think the spell casting occurs in too short a time for the elemental effects
to make a difference in barrier penetration. Of course, the special effects,
after the elemental spell, may be quite interesting. :-)

>You would still need a pretty powerful mage to break through most
>barriers, doesn't this seem a bit of scale?

No more so than the street sam finds it difficult to break through most
barriers with just a firearm. There's got to be some use for those demolition
experts on the team. :-)








Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 18
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:07:17 +0100
> Keldon Mor [SMTP:Keldon@********.net] wrote:
>
>> >> Another question that's been bugging me. How do any of you
handle
>> >>Barriers (especially the Barrier Spell)? The spell states that if
the
>> >>Barrier is penetrated, it drops. Does this mean you can't fire
through
>> >>it and can only fire to bring it down?
>> [Sven's reply:]
>> >Yes, at least that is the way I use it in my game sessions.
>>
>> The description of the spell does say "Attacks directed through a
barrier
>have a Visibility Modifier of +1," which implies that attacks *can* be
>directed through a Barrier spell. (If you're using a house rule, then
that's
>of course different.) Everyone on the other side of the Barrier would
>effectively add the Barrier's Rating to any appropriate Armor Rating
when
>determining the Power of the incoming attack.

Agreed, if an astral barrier was cast. I think it would be impossible
to fire through a physical barrier with just the visibility modifier
applied. The physical barrier is created to stop bullets, knives,
swords, etc... BTW the spell description says to treat this like normal
barrier rules and for firearms this would mean that the power has to be
at least equal to twice the barrier rating. This would make it quite
though to "just" fire through.

>On manipulation spells, what does a force 8 Flamethrower do to a force
6
>barrier spell? And does it matter what the damage level is? Do you only
pit
>force Vs force? In astral space a spell Vs. barrier reduces the force 1
>point per damage level i.e.. 1,2,3,4 for L,M,S,D.

My point exactly. You can toss a force 8 D elemental spell, which I
would consider quite powerful, and still just bounce of on a barrier
rating of 9, (IIRC) which isn't such an abnormal barrier. It just
doesn't make much sense that a 8 L elemental spell would bounce of with
the same ease!?

Sven ;-)
Message no. 19
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:10:26 +0100
> Ken Hart [SMTP:satyr9@********.com]
>
>[Sven's comment:]
>>They only problem I still haven't figured out is how to treat the
effect
>>of damaging spells against barriers (fi. physical combat spells or
>>damaging elemental spells). If you use the rules of barrier rating
>>against the power rating of the spell then you would have to be a
pretty
>>nasty combat mage before even considering scratching the barrier.
>>Anyone has any suggestions on this?

>The "Breaking Through" section on p. 125 of SR3 says that you would use
the normal Barrier Rating against elemental Manipulation >spells and
double the rating against standard Combat spells (like Powerball). One
mage with a hefty Fireball or Lightning Bolt would >have a tough time
getting through a Barrier spell, but two mages (or a mage and some
strong assistance) would have a decent shot >at knocking it down.

How do 2 mages or anymore mages make any difference as long as the power
of their separate spells doesn't exceed the barrier rating? (IMO)
Firing upon a tank with 1 Uzi or 3 Uzi's wouldn't make much difference,
a Panther Canon on the other hand....

Sven ;-)
Message no. 20
From: Keldon Mor Keldon@********.net
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 05:54:38 -0600
> How do 2 mages or anymore mages make any difference as long as the power
> of their separate spells doesn't exceed the barrier rating? (IMO)
> Firing upon a tank with 1 Uzi or 3 Uzi's wouldn't make much difference,
> a Panther Canon on the other hand....

The question is, why would you sling a spell at the barrier, would be much
easier to just dispell it...

Peace,
Keldon@********.net
http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/keldon
Message no. 21
From: Sven De Herdt Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:02:59 +0100
> Keldon Mor [SMTP:Keldon@********.net] wrote:
>
>> How do 2 mages or anymore mages make any difference as long as the
power
>> of their separate spells doesn't exceed the barrier rating? (IMO)
>> Firing upon a tank with 1 Uzi or 3 Uzi's wouldn't make much
difference,
>> a Panther Canon on the other hand....

>The question is, why would you sling a spell at the barrier, would be
much
>easier to just dispell it...

>Peace,
> Keldon@********.net

You would sling the combat/elemental spell at the persons standing
behind the barrier, but if it were a physical barrier then your
combat/elemental spell would break down on the barrier and its rating.

Sven ;-)
Message no. 22
From: Ken Hart satyr9@********.com
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:27:14 -0800
Thus did Keldon Mor <Keldon@********.net> write:

>So if someone is just firing through the barrier at targets on the other
>side, does this still damage the barrier? I don't see what the difference
>would be (in effecting the barrier) if someone shot through or at a barrier.

I'd say that any attacks made through the Barrier, and not at it, would have no effect on
it. A lot of magic in Shadowrun has to do with the intention of the attacker toward the
target. So if a person is trying to bypass the Barrier and not directly attack it, the
Barrier should be unaffected.

So why bother attacking a Barrier at all? Well, if a lone person was trying to get through
the Barrier spell, then yes, he'd be better off just firing *through* the Barrier at his
targets. However, if he's part of a team, he might want to spend his actions attempting to
take down the Barrier spell, allowing his buddies to have unobstructed shots at the
targets.

>On manipulation spells, what does a force 8 Flamethrower do to a force 6
>barrier spell? And does it matter what the damage level is? Do you only pit
>force Vs force? In astral space a spell Vs. barrier reduces the force 1
>point per damage level i.e.. 1,2,3,4 for L,M,S,D.

Yeah, I see your point. As for damage level, I don't think it would matter. Beyond that,
the rules on p. 125 for breaking through mundane barriers don't seem to apply, since they
talk about punching "holes" in the barrier, while the description for the
Barrier spell says, "If the barrier is penetrated, it collapses and the spell
ends." Forget about holes; the Barrier spell is either there or it isn't.

Here's a possible answer to your question: The GM should record the number of successes
that the Barrier's caster made. The mage with the Flamethrower spell then makes a standard
roll, with the modified rating of the Barrier spell as the target (which, in your example,
would be 6 plus 1 point for every two original successes). If Flame Boy's successes exceed
the original caster's successes, the Barrier collapses.

Too easy? Too difficult?

Ken Hart
Owner of Baby #731
satyr9@********.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~evilweb/
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so, Brain, but burlap chafes me so."


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Message no. 23
From: Ken Hart satyr9@********.com
Subject: Magic Barriers (spell)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:03:21 -0800
Thus did Sven De Herdt <Sven.DeHerdt@***********.be> speak:

>Agreed, if an astral barrier was cast. I think it would be impossible
>to fire through a physical barrier with just the visibility modifier
>applied. The physical barrier is created to stop bullets, knives,
>swords, etc... BTW the spell description says to treat this like normal
>barrier rules and for firearms this would mean that the power has to be
>at least equal to twice the barrier rating. This would make it quite
>though to "just" fire through.

A character firing through a Physical Barrier at someone on the other side has to deal
with the base Barrier Rating (*not* doubled) as well as the +1 Visibility Modifier. Yes,
the Physical Barrier spell does act like a physical wall, but that doesn't necessarily
mean that it stops all bullets, period. Depending upon the Force of the spell and the
resulting Rating, the Physical Barrier could be as tough as a translucent wood door or a
translucent sheet of steel. It's not automatically impenetrable.

As per the "Firing Through" rules, you would reduce the Power of the attack by
the Armor Rating of the target and the Barrier Rating of the spell.

Ken Hart
satyr9@********.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~evilweb/
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so, Brain, but burlap chafes me so."


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