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Message no. 1
From: CHRIS BUSKE <CBUSKE@********.ON.CA>
Subject: Magic Deckers
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:38:15 -0400
Hello all

Ok i was reading the mail (the message about PA riggers) and it
reminded me of the novel _Cat's Eye_(i believe, its been awhile
since i read the novel 8-) ). It's about a kid with burnt out psionic
ablities who gets hired by a rich family to prevent an assination of
said family members. To get back the psionic ablities he takes a drug
that bypasses the mental blocks. Now in this novel he hears about a
person who can access the matrix without a deck. He finds said person
and is shown how to use his abilities to enter and manpilate the
matrix.

Now would this be possible for mages/shamans/adepts in the SR world.
If so what would the spell look like.

Also could it entail rigging.


Chris

*********************
You can have peace.
Or you can have freedom.
Don't ever count on having both at once.
Robert Heinlein

<cbuske@********.on.ca>
Message no. 2
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 14:35:30 -0400
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>>>>> "CB" == CHRIS BUSKE <CBUSKE@********.ON.CA> writes:

CB> Now would this be possible for mages/shamans/adepts in the SR world.

No. Magic and the Matrix do not mix. Period. End of discussion.

CB> Also could it entail rigging.

No; rigging and decking are two very different paradigms. Check out the
Corporate Security book for more details.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
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Message no. 3
From: Helge Diernaes <ecocide@***.CBS.DK>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 23:51:10 +0100
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, CHRIS BUSKE wrote:

> Hello all
>
> Ok i was reading the mail (the message about PA riggers) and it
> reminded me of the novel _Cat's Eye_(i believe, its been awhile
> since i read the novel 8-) ). It's about a kid with burnt out psionic
> ablities who gets hired by a rich family to prevent an assination of
> said family members. To get back the psionic ablities he takes a drug
> that bypasses the mental blocks. Now in this novel he hears about a
> person who can access the matrix without a deck. He finds said person
> and is shown how to use his abilities to enter and manpilate the
> matrix.
>
> Now would this be possible for mages/shamans/adepts in the SR world.
> If so what would the spell look like.

It is possible to enter and manipulate the matrix through a simple cable
set between the Datajack and the matrix interface, as I recall Dodgers
"Decking Naked" at the end of Find Your Own Truth (R.N.Charette). My
memory might be failing, so that info can be false. But he did not use a
deck.

But your point was, I suspect, if a magic active person could enter the
Matrix magically. I do not think so; I might just be too conservative,
but how should the magic could facilitate interpretation of programs,
icons, matrix movement, interaction with other entities, not to speak of
matrix combat.

>
> Also could it entail rigging.

If you rule that Matrix access is possible through magic, then rigging
should be no prob. But you know my opinion :-)

--
Regards,

Silhouette

___________
___________________________________________
___________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________
Helge Diernaes | "I'm going slightly mad..."
ecocide@***.cbs.dk | Frank Mercury, Queen
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
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Message no. 4
From: Cukoo <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 16:21:17 -0700
>It is possible to enter and manipulate the matrix through a simple cable
>set between the Datajack and the matrix interface, as I recall Dodgers
>"Decking Naked" at the end of Find Your Own Truth (R.N.Charette). My
>memory might be failing, so that info can be false. But he did not use a
>deck.

Dodger had a bit of cyberware called a Program Carrier, which I haven't seen
anywhere in SRII, but they had them in SRI. It carried three persona chips,
Masking, Evasion, and Sensors. Your body became that of your persona. You
didn't need a deck, but all programming was on the fly and all wounds were
physical. It cost 25,000 and .25 essence (not sure).
Message no. 5
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 19:50:19 -0400
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Helge Diernaes wrote:

> It is possible to enter and manipulate the matrix through a simple cable
> set between the Datajack and the matrix interface, as I recall Dodgers
> "Decking Naked" at the end of Find Your Own Truth (R.N.Charette). My
> memory might be failing, so that info can be false. But he did not use a
> deck.

Yep, but they removed 'running naked' from SRII. Tom Dowd said they
thought it was kind of stupid. "It'd be like unplugging the cable from
the back of your Macintosh, sticking it into your head, and expecting
to see the desktop." <---his quote. You need the deck to translate
the input from the matrix into the sensations you experience while
decking.

--Craig
Message no. 6
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 22:33:06 -0500
> > Hello all
> >
> > Ok i was reading the mail (the message about PA riggers) and it
> > reminded me of the novel _Cat's Eye_(i believe, its been awhile
> > since i read the novel 8-) ). It's about a kid with burnt out psionic
> > ablities who gets hired by a rich family to prevent an assination of
> > said family members. To get back the psionic ablities he takes a drug
> > that bypasses the mental blocks. Now in this novel he hears about a
> > person who can access the matrix without a deck. He finds said person
> > and is shown how to use his abilities to enter and manpilate the
> > matrix.
> >
> > Now would this be possible for mages/shamans/adepts in the SR world.
> > If so what would the spell look like.

GAHHHHH- magic and the matrix are supossedly incompatable.
Now, will FASA (should be slowsa) please finish the long promised techno
shamans so I won't waste time creating more deckers who need complete revision
in a few months, or worse yet, will wish for magical skills.
Put me on the fucking beta list, at least- we run 2 partys, one normal, one
all deckers. We need it BAD.

sebastian
aka mongoose
seb@***.ripco.com
hint hint
Message no. 7
From: John Bennett <GRBENNET@*****.CIS.ECU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 23:38:31 EDT
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995 19:50:19 -0400 Craig S Dohmen said:
>On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Helge Diernaes wrote:
>
>> It is possible to enter and manipulate the matrix through a simple cable
>> set between the Datajack and the matrix interface, as I recall Dodgers
>> "Decking Naked" at the end of Find Your Own Truth (R.N.Charette). My
>> memory might be failing, so that info can be false. But he did not use a
>> deck.
>
>Yep, but they removed 'running naked' from SRII. Tom Dowd said they
>thought it was kind of stupid. "It'd be like unplugging the cable from
>the back of your Macintosh, sticking it into your head, and expecting
>to see the desktop." <---his quote. You need the deck to translate
>the input from the matrix into the sensations you experience while
>decking.
>
They replaced it with the cranial deck which is in Shadowtech(i think).
Basically, it is a full deck implanted in the head, thus no deck to
carry around.

Sgt. Pepper

"I MAY BE SANE BUT I'M CRAZIER THAN YOU" O O
NOSALGIA ISN'T WHAT IT USED TO BE. ^
SOMEONE WHO THINKS LOGICALLY IS A NICE _____/
CONTRAST TO THE REAL WORLD.
THERE IS ALWAYS ONE MORE IMBECILE THAN YOU COUNTED ON.
IF YOU CAN SMILE WHEN THINGS GO WRONG, YOU HAVE SOMEONE IN
MIND TO BLAME.
COMMON SENSE REALLY AIN'T ALL THAT COMMON.

GeekCodev3.0

GM/ED d- s+: g+ a26 c++ u- P? L E? W !N K- w+ M-- V+ PS+ PE Y+ PGP-
t+ 5 X+ R+ tv+ b+(++) DI d G e++(+++) h+ r++(+++) y+
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:23:16 +0100
CHRIS BUSKE said on 4 Oct 95...

[psionic kid with mental block]
> Now would this be possible for mages/shamans/adepts in the SR world.
> If so what would the spell look like.

The Matrix doesn't exist, remember? There is nothing physical about it --
read Gibson: "There's no there, there," which would mean that magic canot
affect it. No physical components and no conciousness, one of which would
be required for magic to be able to "get hold" of it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Keep on running back into that wall
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:23:16 +0100
Stainless Steel Rat said on 4 Oct 95...

> CB> Now would this be possible for mages/shamans/adepts in the SR world.
>
> No. Magic and the Matrix do not mix. Period. End of discussion.

Except through a cyberdeck, at a penalty to your TN equal to your Magic
Rating or your Sorcery skill level...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Keep on running back into that wall
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 10
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 14:49:15 +0100
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, CHRIS BUSKE wrote:

> Ok i was reading the mail (the message about PA riggers) and it
> reminded me of the novel _Cat's Eye_(i believe, its been awhile
> since i read the novel 8-) ). It's about a kid with burnt out psionic
> ablities who gets hired by a rich family to prevent an assination of
> said family members. To get back the psionic ablities he takes a drug
> that bypasses the mental blocks. Now in this novel he hears about a
> person who can access the matrix without a deck. He finds said person
> and is shown how to use his abilities to enter and manpilate the
> matrix.
>
> Now would this be possible for mages/shamans/adepts in the SR world.
> If so what would the spell look like.
>
If you're interested in this sort of stuff then you might want to get
ahold of some of Whitewolf's Mage: The Ascension books where there are a
Tradition of mages called Virtual Adepts who use magick in what they term
"The Digital Web". The suplement of the same name gives rules for M:tA's
cyberspace and there's also a VA Tradition book (which I haven't read).

I already use Ascension Mages in my SR game and it can surely freak out
players when they see magick which is plainly impossible for them (like
taking your body into Astral Space -ie stepping sideways into the Middle
Umbra).

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 11
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 14:58:51 +0100
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> CB> Now would this be possible for mages/shamans/adepts in the SR world.
>
> No. Magic and the Matrix do not mix. Period. End of discussion.
>
But if you're the GM then it IS possible :)
Seriously some of the best games are when the "rules" get broken and the
players start losing that comfort of knowing just what can and can't be
done. When that uncertainty enters into the equation players start being
more scared and caution -more realistic to some degree.

And besides, even if you do go by the letter of FASA's rules, whose to
say that those rules may not change when a new supplement comes out? For
example, the "rule" on nature spirits leaving their domain was that it
could never be done; then the Grimoire came out and introduced Great
Forms which *can* cross domains. Similar things have happened with
Initiate Metamagic.

Now you can wait till these supplements are published so the "new" rules
are official (but the trouble is the players might well go buy the
supplement themselves and regain the confidence of knowing the rules); or
you as GM can break FASA's rules, scare the Players witless and be safe
in the knowledge that only you know the true limits of this "new" magic
(or whatever).

I personally use a different rational for grounding spells which by
virtue of its logic allows Mana spells to be "grounded" through a foci
(hence I haven't entered the current debate).

Just something to think about! :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 12
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 15:01:40 +0100
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Cukoo wrote:

> Dodger had a bit of cyberware called a Program Carrier, which I haven't seen
> anywhere in SRII, but they had them in SRI. It carried three persona chips,
> Masking, Evasion, and Sensors. Your body became that of your persona. You
> didn't need a deck, but all programming was on the fly and all wounds were
> physical. It cost 25,000 and .25 essence (not sure).

Thats right, and if you have read Cybertechnology you may have found a
note from some decker saying something to the effect of:

"Yeah, this is way better than those Program Carriers we were all using a
while back until we discovered the cellular damage we were incurring."

Just a minor piece of trivia for you :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 13
From: Paolo Marcucci <paolo@*********.IT>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 15:50:24 +0100
At 15.01 05/10/95 +0100, you wrote:
>
>Thats right, and if you have read Cybertechnology you may have found a
>note from some decker saying something to the effect of:
>
>"Yeah, this is way better than those Program Carriers we were all using a
>while back until we discovered the cellular damage we were incurring."
>
>Just a minor piece of trivia for you :)
>

I think it was in Shadowtech. I remember this sentence, but I don't (still)
have Cybertech, so...

Paolo
------------------------------------------------------------------
Paolo Marcucci paolo@*********.it
InterWare Service Provider http://www.interware.it/users/paolo
Trieste, Italy
Ph. +39-40-774488
------------------------------------------------------------------
Home of The Shadowrun Archive
Message no. 14
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:18:20 -0400
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>>>>> "TDM" == The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK> writes:

CB> Now would this be possible for mages/shamans/adepts in the SR world.
>> No. Magic and the Matrix do not mix. Period. End of discussion.
TDM> But if you're the GM then it IS possible :)

Then you're dealing with a house rule that blatantly contradicts
everything FASA has ever said on the subject. Be prepared to meet with a
lot of resistance to it on the public forums.

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--
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PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \
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Message no. 15
From: David M Woods <spuwdsda@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 17:02:39 +0100
On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, The Digital Mage wrote:

> If you're interested in this sort of stuff then you might want to get
> ahold of some of Whitewolf's Mage: The Ascension books where there are a
> Tradition of mages called Virtual Adepts who use magick in what they term
> "The Digital Web". The suplement of the same name gives rules for M:tA's
> cyberspace and there's also a VA Tradition book (which I haven't read).
>
> I already use Ascension Mages in my SR game and it can surely freak out
> players when they see magick which is plainly impossible for them (like
> taking your body into Astral Space -ie stepping sideways into the Middle
> Umbra).
>

IMHO it isn't a good idea to mix magic systems this way. The magic theory
of SR and M:tA is so different that it makes no sense to place a M:tA
Mage within SR or the other way around.

I don't think that if/when FASA write a Matrix Shaman book it will look
at all like the "The Digital Web".

- David
Message no. 16
From: CHRIS BUSKE <CBUSKE@********.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:28:15 -0400
On Oct 5 Gurth said:

> The Matrix doesn't exist, remember? There is nothing physical about it --
> read Gibson: "There's no there, there," which would mean that magic canot
> affect it. No physical components and no conciousness, one of which would
> be required for magic to be able to "get hold" of it.

IMHO i would have to disagree that "There are no physical
components..." The matrix is a system of computers that on the basic
levels manipulate either electrons or light. When a decker jacks in
(s)he sees a virtual reality which is how, through the C^2, (s)he is
able to manipulate these physical components to achieve the desired
results.

Now why can't a mage also affect the electrons or light of the deck.
Yes there may be special skills that (s)he will have to learn before
decking without jacking in. (Electronics, matrix hardware,
programing ... etc 8-). The mage may not need a datajack but (s)he
may need a deck.

Chris Buske
<cbuske@********.on.ca>
Message no. 17
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 15:16:10 -0400
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>>>>> "DMW" == David M Woods <spuwdsda@*******.AC.UK>
writes:

DMW> I don't think that if/when FASA write a Matrix Shaman book it will
DMW> look at all like the "The Digital Web".

In fact, a Matrix Shaman, like a Unix Wizard, it not mage at all. He's
just someone very good at what he does. In the case of the Matrix Shaman
he may have a reality filter set up to make it seem like he's casting
spells and summoning spirits in the Matrix, but that's just a personal
paradigm; it does not mean that he's actually casting spells or
summoning spirits.

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--
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Message no. 18
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 15:18:41 -0400
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>>>>> "CB" == CHRIS BUSKE <CBUSKE@********.ON.CA> writes:

CB> Now why can't a mage also affect the electrons or light of the deck.

Because the more complex a technological thing is, the more resistant it
is to magic. The Matrix is *the* most technologically advanced construct
in the world. It stands to reason that it would also be the one thing in
the world most resistant to magic.

Which, in fact, it is.

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Message no. 19
From: Guy Swartwood <gswartwo@*********.WICHITAKS.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 14:17:00 PDT
<<<<magic and Matrix mxing/don't mix snipped>>>>

>Now why can't a mage also affect the electrons or light of the deck.
>Yes there may be special skills that (s)he will have to learn before
>decking without jacking in. (Electronics, matrix hardware,
>programing ... etc 8-). The mage may not need a datajack but (s)he
>may need a deck.
>
>Chris Buske
><cbuske@********.on.ca>

An earlier explanation given (we had this discussion several months ago) was
that magic using characters have a hard time letting virtual reality invade
reality as we know it. I know that is vague and not a very good paraphrase
of what I am trying to say, but I will try to explain. In accordance with
what SR explains what is magic (please correct me if I am wrong), magic
using people have learned to accept a world view in order to use magic. They
learn to (depending on being a shaman or hermetic) use a set of rules to use
magic. Therefore they have to use somewhat of a common view of reality.

VR breaks that reality to them. When they see that what they know as reality
is not true in VR, then they have a REAL hard time of doing Matrix work.

Now I will probably be told that what I said was wrong, or it was stupid,
yet that I what I thought SR was trying to say.

In my own opinion, the reason why is more a game balance item then anything
and that I accept it because there needs to be one. No one can do everything
(jack of all trades).

Guy Swartwood corporate decker by day, shadowrunner at night
wildman@******.net
gswartwo@*********.wichitaks.attgis.com
Message no. 20
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 15:35:00 PDT
>> It is possible to enter and manipulate the matrix through a simple cable
>> set between the Datajack and the matrix interface, as I recall Dodgers
>> "Decking Naked" at the end of Find Your Own Truth (R.N.Charette). My
>> memory might be failing, so that info can be false. But he did not use a
>> deck.

>Yep, but they removed 'running naked' from SRII. Tom Dowd said they
>thought it was kind of stupid. "It'd be like unplugging the cable from
>the back of your Macintosh, sticking it into your head, and expecting
>to see the desktop." <---his quote. You need the deck to translate
>the input from the matrix into the sensations you experience while
>decking.

Does't simsense generate the sensations etc.
instead of the simsense unit or cyberdeck what about cybersense (a
cybernetic simsence unit.) 10k? 1 ess. level 4 datajack inc.



Ricky
"It's not a question of being paranoid, the question
is are you paranoid enough"
-strange days
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 21
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 07:18:11 +0930
St. Jean, Ricky wrote:
>
> >Yep, but they removed 'running naked' from SRII. Tom Dowd said they
> >thought it was kind of stupid. "It'd be like unplugging the cable from
> >the back of your Macintosh, sticking it into your head, and expecting
> >to see the desktop." <---his quote. You need the deck to translate
> >the input from the matrix into the sensations you experience while
> >decking.

What, you mean you DON'T see the desktop??? *boggle*

> Does't simsense generate the sensations etc.
> instead of the simsense unit or cyberdeck what about cybersense (a
> cybernetic simsence unit.) 10k? 1 ess. level 4 datajack inc.

Full simsense transmissions use INCREDIBLE bandwidth. Even more than normal
full-Matrix connections. And most people have got better things to do than
go around sending pure simsense (not to mention the storage costs of the
images). Instead, little "short-hand" images are sent around, and these
images are interpreted by the deck. What interprets them? Two things: the
reality filter, and the MPCP. Heck, that's most of what the MPCP does.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 22
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 18:10:56 -0400
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Sebastian Wiers wrote:

> GAHHHHH- magic and the matrix are supossedly incompatable.
> Now, will FASA (should be slowsa) please finish the long promised techno
> shamans so I won't waste time creating more deckers who need complete revision
> in a few months, or worse yet, will wish for magical skills.

If you're talking about VR 2.0, don't worry. They said at GenCon that
you shouldn't have to re-do your characters, except recompute the
decking pool. In other words, they didn't change the decker, they
changed how the matrix works.

--Craig
Message no. 23
From: Simon Paul Stroud <s_sps4@*******.ITS.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:20:59 +1000
I think you guys should maybe take a little look in the Denver book, say
the bit on the Denver Data Haven perhaps? Can any say the magic word,
"Otaku"?

Tjuess, Horus.
Message no. 24
From: Paolo Marcucci <paolo@*********.IT>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 11:05:29 +0100
At 15.16 05/10/95 -0400, you wrote:
>>>>>> "DMW" == David M Woods <spuwdsda@*******.AC.UK>
writes:
>
>DMW> I don't think that if/when FASA write a Matrix Shaman book it will
>DMW> look at all like the "The Digital Web".
>
>In fact, a Matrix Shaman, like a Unix Wizard, it not mage at all. He's
>just someone very good at what he does. In the case of the Matrix Shaman
>he may have a reality filter set up to make it seem like he's casting
>spells and summoning spirits in the Matrix, but that's just a personal
>paradigm; it does not mean that he's actually casting spells or
>summoning spirits.
>Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types

Uhhh, interesting.

That means if I set up a sculpted system and change the appearance of my
utilities, next time a decker will enter my system he will get some
powerball or manabolt...:) great idea! *That* will scare the drek out of the
poor decker...


ehehehehehhh......

Paolo
------------------------------------------------------------------
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Trieste, Italy
Ph. +39-40-774488
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Home of The Shadowrun Archive
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:14:06 +0100
Paolo Marcucci said on 5 Oct 95...

> >"Yeah, this is way better than those Program Carriers we were all using a
> >while back until we discovered the cellular damage we were incurring."
>
> I think it was in Shadowtech. I remember this sentence, but I don't (still)
> have Cybertech, so...

Let's break the confusion, shall we? Denver Player's Book, page 87, left
column, 12th comment :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here we go again...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 26
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:14:06 +0100
CHRIS BUSKE said on 5 Oct 95...

> IMHO i would have to disagree that "There are no physical
> components..." The matrix is a system of computers that on the basic
> levels manipulate either electrons or light. When a decker jacks in
> (s)he sees a virtual reality which is how, through the C^2, (s)he is
> able to manipulate these physical components to achieve the desired
> results.
>
> Now why can't a mage also affect the electrons or light of the deck.

Technically speaking, yes the deck works with electrons and fotons racing
through wires, cables, circuits, etc. to provide the decker with the
virtual reality. But also technically speaking you need to _see_ something
to hit it with magic. You can't see electrons (no, in a CRT you don't see
the electrons, you see the result of the electrons' impact against the
screen); fotons in a fibre-optic cable are also invisible unless you look
straight into the end of the cable, in which case it means the cable isn't
plugged into the deck so the deck doesn't work with the data that's coming
though the cable.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here we go again...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 27
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:20:58 +0100
Cukoo wrote:
>
> >It is possible to enter and manipulate the matrix through a simple cable
> >set between the Datajack and the matrix interface, as I recall Dodgers
> >"Decking Naked" at the end of Find Your Own Truth (R.N.Charette). My
> >memory might be failing, so that info can be false. But he did not use a
> >deck.
>
> Dodger had a bit of cyberware called a Program Carrier, which I haven't seen
> anywhere in SRII, but they had them in SRI. It carried three persona chips,
> Masking, Evasion, and Sensors. Your body became that of your persona. You
> didn't need a deck, but all programming was on the fly and all wounds were
> physical. It cost 25,000 and .25 essence (not sure).

This thing is obsolete, according to FASA it got replaced by the Cranial
Decks. Of course there are still some people using it, I got its stats, let
me know if you want them.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 28
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:14:06 +0100
Stainless Steel Rat said on 5 Oct 95...

> In fact, a Matrix Shaman, like a Unix Wizard, it not mage at all. He's
> just someone very good at what he does. In the case of the Matrix Shaman
> he may have a reality filter set up to make it seem like he's casting
> spells and summoning spirits in the Matrix, but that's just a personal
> paradigm; it does not mean that he's actually casting spells or
> summoning spirits.

But FASA have very subtly kept open a way for them to be _real_ shamans
operating in the matrix; they can go both ways at the moment: say that
these folks have a Magic Rating and cast spells at matrix constructs, or
they can make them people with Computer skill 12+, MPCP 40, and Hacking
Pool 70... (or maybe a bit less :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here we go again...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 29
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 10:21:54 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "G" == Gurth <gurth@******.nl> writes:

G> But FASA have very subtly kept open a way for them to be _real_
G> shamans operating in the matrix;

The statement "there is no magic in the Matrix" is neither subtle nor
does it allow for the contrary.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ head.
Message no. 30
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:33:19 -0500
>
> On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Sebastian Wiers wrote:
>
> > GAHHHHH- magic and the matrix are supossedly incompatable.
> > Now, will FASA (should be slowsa) please finish the long promised techno
> > shamans so I won't waste time creating more deckers who need complete revision
> > in a few months, or worse yet, will wish for magical skills.
>
> If you're talking about VR 2.0, don't worry. They said at GenCon that
> you shouldn't have to re-do your characters, except recompute the
> decking pool. In other words, they didn't change the decker, they
> changed how the matrix works.
>
> --Craig
This is exactly what I'm worried abnout- I wanted to revive program carriers,
which make you very Pool dependant.
Message no. 31
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 20:05:25 -0400
On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> The statement "there is no magic in the Matrix" is neither subtle nor
> does it allow for the contrary.

At that present time. How 'bout if they did a: However, the
magic of the world has risen, and that magic is doing strange things to
technology. The Matrix is becoming a real place, similar to a metaplane
in its association to the human plane. Then, it'd allow magicians to
enter the Matrix through an Astral Quest...;)

Not likely, but I'm sure someone who's a better writer than I am
could swing it...

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 32
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 11:02:20 +0100
Jani Fikouras said on 6 Oct 95...

> > Dodger had a bit of cyberware called a Program Carrier,
>
> This thing is obsolete, according to FASA it got replaced by the Cranial
> Decks. Of course there are still some people using it, I got its stats, let
> me know if you want them.

"Someone once posted this on ShadowRN. *shows a text file* Do you think it
would be something to put into the next book?"

(No, I don't expect many people to understand this little joke... Jani
should, though :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The Serious Lemon Squad
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 33
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 11:02:20 +0100
Stainless Steel Rat said on 6 Oct 95...

> G> But FASA have very subtly kept open a way for them to be _real_
> G> shamans operating in the matrix;
>
> The statement "there is no magic in the Matrix" is neither subtle nor
> does it allow for the contrary.

But at the same time they are not sure whether or not the "matrix shamans"
are really shamans or just people with a really good deck and top-grade
skills.. As someone else said a few days back, things change when new
books come out...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The Serious Lemon Squad
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 34
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 19:58:29 +0930
Gurth wrote:
>
> But at the same time they are not sure whether or not the "matrix shamans"
> are really shamans or just people with a really good deck and top-grade
> skills.. As someone else said a few days back, things change when new
> books come out...

You forgot the third alternative... that they are brain-fired from too many
infights while growing up in the Nexus...

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 35
From: The Kumquat <LAYBROWNJT@***.CUIS.EDU>
Subject: Magic Deckers
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 05:47:47 -0500
My current take on the "why can't I cast spells in the matrix?" question is
that although magic and tech CAN be integrated (ie cybermancy) it is VERY
difficult, as the two are completely in opposition to each other (natural
forces vs. technological ones). Almost every published rule supports that idea,
and quite nicely keeps the two apart except at great cost. So no, I think its
very unlikely that there will ever be real spells cast in the matrix or "matrix
elementals" or "unnatural spirits", at least not in published rules. It
violates one of the key conflicts integral to the SR Universe. That is, natural
forces of magic against unnatural forces of technology.

Slightly off topic, I created, using standard chargen rules a burned-out
mage/decker character who has Essence & Magic at 1.0, which means he gets +1 to
all TN# in the Matrix, and takes physical damage for almost EVERY spell's
drain. He was made using SRII rulebook, Grimoire II, Street Sam, Virtual
Realities, Shadowtech, and Cybertechnology. If anyone is interested, I'll post
him to the list.

Just My Two Pence.
The Kumquat.

Support Whirled Peas.
Message no. 36
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 17:43:08 +0100
On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> CB> Now would this be possible for mages/shamans/adepts in the SR world.
> >> No. Magic and the Matrix do not mix. Period. End of discussion.
> TDM> But if you're the GM then it IS possible :)
>
> Then you're dealing with a house rule that blatantly contradicts
> everything FASA has ever said on the subject. Be prepared to meet with a
> lot of resistance to it on the public forums.
>
What my comment was really pointing to is that just because 'FASA says it
isn't so' it *should not* be 'Period. End of discussion.'
If all we could discuss here is what FASA says is so, then I would
unsubscribe immediately as I can find all that stuff in the books.

Not a flame, just an observation -I like to discuss theories, and new
ideas, to expand, explore and occassionally break the rules and ask 'What
if?'. Discussing what the rules say is, to my taste, a little dry.

Maybe FASA should import Whitewolf's own Golden Rule -There are no rules,
only guidelines.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 37
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 17:52:06 +0100
On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Dave Stone wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> > The statement "there is no magic in the Matrix" is neither subtle nor
> > does it allow for the contrary.
>
> At that present time. How 'bout if they did a: However, the
> magic of the world has risen, and that magic is doing strange things to
> technology. The Matrix is becoming a real place, similar to a metaplane
> in its association to the human plane. Then, it'd allow magicians to
> enter the Matrix through an Astral Quest...;)
>
Exactly! New sourcebooks can change the rules. And so why should we
not discuss the possibilities before those sourcebooks are written
-instead of quoting FASA rules saying it can't be done?
(I made a similar comment recently using Spirits crossing domains as an
example of how a new book (ie the Grimoire with Great Forms) can break
the rules).

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 38
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 17:59:39 +0100
On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Guy Swartwood wrote:

> <<<<magic and Matrix mxing/don't mix snipped>>>>
>
> An earlier explanation given (we had this discussion several months ago) was
> that magic using characters have a hard time letting virtual reality invade
> reality as we know it.
>
> <sniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiip> In accordance with
> what SR explains what is magic (please correct me if I am wrong), magic
> using people have learned to accept a world view in order to use magic. They
> learn to (depending on being a shaman or hermetic) use a set of rules to use
> magic. Therefore they have to use somewhat of a common view of reality.
>
> VR breaks that reality to them. When they see that what they know as reality
> is not true in VR, then they have a REAL hard time of doing Matrix work.

Here's something to think about -what if the person's world view doesn't
contradict with the VR of the Matrix, for example Renny from VR who was
brought up in the matrix. Why shouldn't any Totem still call
upon that individual? Maybe because they don't share a paradigm with the
rest of the shamans? But then surely the Totems' paradigm is as different
to the rest of the Shamans' as it is different to Renny's.

Maybe this is what is meant by Techno Shamans (unlikely though) those
kids *born* in the Matrix being the only ones capable of using Magic
there. And thus maybe only usable as a GM tool :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 39
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 18:03:06 +0100
On Sat, 7 Oct 1995, The Kumquat wrote:

> Slightly off topic, I created, using standard chargen rules a burned-out
> mage/decker character who has Essence & Magic at 1.0, which means he gets +1 to
> all TN# in the Matrix, and takes physical damage for almost EVERY spell's
> drain. He was made using SRII rulebook, Grimoire II, Street Sam, Virtual
> Realities, Shadowtech, and Cybertechnology. If anyone is interested, I'll post
> him to the list.
>
Anyone remember the adventure DNA/DOA? In that book FASA provide some
alternative characters for players to use, one of them was a decker who
was also a mage -this was one of the first scenarios out if I remember.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 40
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:36:18 +0100
The Digital Mage said on 8 Oct 95...

> Maybe FASA should import Whitewolf's own Golden Rule -There are no rules,
> only guidelines.

"This is your game, you paid for it, you do with it what you want" or
something to that extent (I don't have my ED books at hand -- read the
first few paragraphs of the GM chapter in the main rulebook).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
History as we like to see it
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 41
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 13:22:17 +0100
On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, Gurth wrote:

> The Digital Mage said on 8 Oct 95...
>
> > Maybe FASA should import Whitewolf's own Golden Rule -There are no rules,
> > only guidelines.
>
> "This is your game, you paid for it, you do with it what you want" or
> something to that extent (I don't have my ED books at hand -- read the
^^
> first few paragraphs of the GM chapter in the main rulebook).

ED? Earthdawn, I thought this was SR? So maybe FASA do have their own
Golden Rule -maybe the question should be:
"Should FASA raise the profile of said rule?"

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 42
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 16:22:14 +0100
Gurth wrote:
>
> Jani Fikouras said on 6 Oct 95...
>
> > > Dodger had a bit of cyberware called a Program Carrier,
> >
> > This thing is obsolete, according to FASA it got replaced by the Cranial
> > Decks. Of course there are still some people using it, I got its stats, let
> > me know if you want them.
>
> "Someone once posted this on ShadowRN. *shows a text file* Do you think it
> would be something to put into the next book?"
>
> (No, I don't expect many people to understand this little joke... Jani
> should, though :)

What Gurth means is that he's the original poster :) Ok I got the
file here and as its no that long I think I'll post it, so here goes.

Someone asked for the rules on naked decking, so I dug out my
falling-apart SR1 rulebook, and looked up page 111:

"NAKED IN THE MATRIX
By now, some of you must be wondering how Dodger got onto Mitsuhama's
system without a cyberdeck. The Elf was pulling one of the flashiest and
most dangerous stunts in the decker's bag of tricks: going naked into the
Matrix. Boys and girls, don't try this at home! [note: this refers to the
opening story in SR1, which is totally different from the one in SR2]
This feat requires a Program Carrier to let you slot Persona chips
loaded for Sensor, Masking, and Evasion into a suitable port. You have to
jack into a dataport at the same point. To get in, you need an
Input/Output Port or Slave Module (see NODES AND THEIR FUNCTIONS).
"Wait a minute," you say, "what about the Bod program? Where's the
MPCP?" Well, chummers, your Willpower is the MPCP when you do this
electron dance. Any damage the MPCP would take, you take personally. It's
marked off on your Mental [called Stun these days] Condition Monitor. If
you get knocked out, you're dumped. Black IC still kills you, just like
always.
You can use headware memory space for downloading data, and you have
an I/O rating equal to your Intelligence. Utilities? No, you can't carry
those. You have to write all your programs on the fly, using your Hacking
Pool.
On the upside, if you have wired reflexes or a vehicle control rig,
you do get the dice bonus to your Initiative Roll, but if you run into
anything nasty, that may only mean you get to die faster."

Now for the Program Carrier (on page 128):

"Program Carrier: This is a specialized form of Bodyware for those who
work with the Matrix, especially deckers. Three retractable prongs are
located in the user's hand to carry any kind of chip. The chip are
connected by individual, subdermal fibre optics to the user's datajack.
Technicians use program carriers for diagnostic routines, and deckers for
persona programs. By inserting the prongs into a suitable station and
plugging in a data table, a decker can run the Matrix, as they say,
"naked." He will need headware memory storage to stash any data he
heists. This is a dangerous way to deck because the user's neural system
in extremely vulnerable."
Game stats: Essence Cost: .2
Price: 25,000 nuyen
Availability: 4/48 hours
Street Index: 1
Legality: 3-CD

For those who need a picture of the program carrier, dig up your SR2
rulebook: the Elf is Dodger, jacking into the MCT terminal. The things on
his hand _are_not_ spurs, but a program carrier instead.

Someone also mentioned that, with cranial decks and everything, these
things would probably be out of use. Could be true for deckers, but not
many corps would outfit all their technicians with a 400,000-nuyen
cyberdeck. These fellows would probably still use the device, as would
wannabe-deckers, and the odd non-decker runner who still wants to be able
to jack into security systems and the like.
Or GMs could decide that it is getting popular with local deckers to run
naked, to prove that they are better than the opposition.


--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 43
From: "Matthew P. Macstravic" <s0238115@********.MONMOUTH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 12:20:28 EDT
>
> The Digital Mage said on 8 Oct 95...
>
> > Maybe FASA should import Whitewolf's own Golden Rule -There are no rules,
> > only guidelines.

You keep forgetting that White Wolf's Storyteller Games were made for serious
Role-Players and aspiring actors....and the rules don't make much of a
difference to what the Storyteller makes up.

Most other games not designed by WW have the rules for a specific
reason.....to prevent a bunch of Monty Haul-ers (Or what ever the term is
that you use now) from letting things get out of hand.....

NightStorm

"So what you're saying here is that our target is a 10-foot-tall Troll that
has Dermal Plating and Muscle enhancements at Class 3? Great......."
Alaric - Leader of the ShadowKnights
Message no. 44
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:59:06 +0100
The Digital Mage said on 9 Oct 95...

> > "This is your game, you paid for it, you do with it what you want" or
> > something to that extent (I don't have my ED books at hand -- read the
> ^^
> > first few paragraphs of the GM chapter in the main rulebook).
>
> ED? Earthdawn, I thought this was SR? So maybe FASA do have their own
> Golden Rule -maybe the question should be:
> "Should FASA raise the profile of said rule?"

This is SR, and I suddenly remembered it has a similar rule -- the first
paragraph of the Behind The Scenes chapter of the main rulebook says it
all... (Although in the ED book they say they're still checking on the SR
players before they have the time to do the same with the ED players :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Feel free, but don't feel too comfortable
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 45
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:10:47 GMT
The Digital Mage writes

> > "This is your game, you paid for it, you do with it what you want" or
> > something to that extent (I don't have my ED books at hand -- read the
> ^^
> > first few paragraphs of the GM chapter in the main rulebook).
>
> ED? Earthdawn, I thought this was SR? So maybe FASA do have their own
> Golden Rule -maybe the question should be:
> "Should FASA raise the profile of said rule?"
>
I think this might have something to do with a nice quote on rule
changes in the Earthdawn main book thats something like 'we won't
come round checking up on how you play the rules as we have not
finished checking on our Shadowrun players yet', i think thats the
only time the name Shadowrun actually shows up in ED.

Mark
Message no. 46
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 13:22:30 +0100
On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Mark Steedman wrote:

> I think this might have something to do with a nice quote on rule
> changes in the Earthdawn main book thats something like 'we won't
> come round checking up on how you play the rules as we have not
> finished checking on our Shadowrun players yet', i think thats the
> only time the name Shadowrun actually shows up in ED.
>
Heh! I don't play ED so I didn't get the reference, thanks though :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 47
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic Deckers
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:44:32 -0400
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>>>>> "DS" == Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
writes:

DS> On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>> The statement "there is no magic in the Matrix" is neither subtle nor
>> does it allow for the contrary.

DS> At that present time. How 'bout if they did a: However, the
DS> magic of the world has risen, and that magic is doing strange things
DS> to technology.

You are making a supposition with no basis in any previous material or
statements. Logically, your "argument" is nil.

DS> The Matrix is becoming a real place, similar to a metaplane in its
DS> association to the human plane. Then, it'd allow magicians to enter
DS> the Matrix through an Astral Quest...;)

"Real" only in the eyes of those who view it. As I previously stated,
the Matrix is the most technologically advanced construct in existance.
That makes it the single thing most resistant to magic in the world.
You'd need a *seriously* major increase in the mana level in order to
make magical use of it.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \

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