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From:	silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject:	Magic Fingers, firearms, and you (Was Shiva-style Gun-fu)
Date:	Mon, 2 Feb 2004 17:18:20 -0500

Message no. 1 For the physics-types, recall that magic fingers can exert enough force to
hold up however much kg the dead-lift limit is for the spell's strength. I'd
guess that's a fair amount of newtons (book not handy), and is not under the
limitations of the human form. This means that (with some experience) the
caster could set up the spell to better balance recoil forces. I wouldn't
give any bonus recoil comp to the spell than that of its strength, but it is
there.

Anyway, another use for the spell would be to free up the caster's hands to
use for other purposes (any number of reasons to want to have your hands
free and still be armed). With a short-range video transmitter (or a
specialized detection spell) you have a well-armed way to peek around
corners and shoot what's there. There are a lot of possibilities inherent in
a free-floating gun, and most of them have little to do with using more than
one. And if you are using just one, a laser sight would certainly work, and
with a little bit of technical ingenuity, a smartgun link would work also
(short-range transmitter, or even just cable to datajack or goggles).

From:	maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject:	Magic Fingers, firearms, and you (Was Shiva-style Gun-fu)
Date:	Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:34:32 +0100

Message no. 2 > with a little bit of technical ingenuity, a smartgun link would work
> also
> (short-range transmitter, or even just cable to datajack or goggles).

I would probably add a couple of gyroscopes (accelerometers), a
gun-mounted rangefinder and an additional maths chip to the list of
required gear... The system has to have a way to know the gun's
position relative to the shooter and where/what/who it's pointed at.
Given that data, the (dedicated) chip could easily compute what it has
to display in your field of vision.
However, that's some highly specialized gear. The chip could be taken
from a laser designator (with a few mods), though.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr@*****.fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"

From:	silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject:	Magic Fingers, firearms, and you (Was Shiva-style Gun-fu)
Date:	Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:57:28 -0500

Message no. 3 -----Original Message-----
From: Max Noel
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 7:35 AM
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: Re: Magic Fingers, firearms, and you (Was Shiva-style Gun-fu)

> with a little bit of technical ingenuity, a smartgun link would work
> also
> (short-range transmitter, or even just cable to datajack or goggles).

I would probably add a couple of gyroscopes (accelerometers), a
gun-mounted rangefinder and an additional maths chip to the list of
required gear... The system has to have a way to know the gun's
position relative to the shooter and where/what/who it's pointed at.
Given that data, the (dedicated) chip could easily compute what it has
to display in your field of vision.
However, that's some highly specialized gear. The chip could be
taken
from a laser designator (with a few mods), though.

-----Reply Message-----

That's what a smartgun system already does...

A smartgun system already has to know where the gun is relative to the user;
and it has to do be able to determine this without the user being able to
necessarily see the gun (shooting from the hip, the gun may very well be out
of the user's arc of vision). Right now, we really don't know how the
system (gun and reader) does this. Some of the ways I can think of require
that the gun be in the user's hand, some don't. Particularly, a smartgoggle
system has to be able to determine the relative position of the firearm
without reference to the user's body (having no way of determining the
kinesthetics of the user's body).

Ian Argent

From:	tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject:	Magic Fingers, firearms, and you (Was Shiva-style Gun-fu)
Date:	Tue, 03 Feb 2004 16:43:25 -0500

Message no. 4 At 11:57 AM 2/3/2004, Jonathan Hurley wrote:
>That's what a smartgun system already does...
>
>A smartgun system already has to know where the gun is relative to the user;
>and it has to do be able to determine this without the user being able to
>necessarily see the gun (shooting from the hip, the gun may very well be out
>of the user's arc of vision). Right now, we really don't know how the
>system (gun and reader) does this. Some of the ways I can think of require

Sure we do. Read the section on buying Smartlinks piecemeal. One of the
components is a limited simsense rig. Just like a normal full-bore simsense
rig, it can record and playback simsense - it's a two-way device.

>that the gun be in the user's hand, some don't. Particularly, a smartgoggle

The gun needs to be in the user's hand for the simsense rig to know where
it is and to make the connection through the induction pad.

>system has to be able to determine the relative position of the firearm
>without reference to the user's body (having no way of determining the
>kinesthetics of the user's body).

Those inaccuracies are exactly why Smartgoggles are no better than laser
sights.

That's also the same reason that replacing the induction pad with an
external cable (via the piecemeal Smartlink bit in M&M) /also/ reduces the
effectiveness to that of Smartgoggles/Laser Sights.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman

From:	tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject:	Magic Fingers, firearms, and you (Was Shiva-style Gun-fu)
Date:	Tue, 03 Feb 2004 23:36:37 -0500

Message no. 5 At 08:15 PM 2/3/2004, Jonathan Hurley wrote:
>-----Reply Message-----
>
>I don't understand that sentence. In a couple of cases, the listed
>substitutions are entirely cybernetic (full simrig for limited simrig, and
>standard datajack and cable for intuction pad.) In fact, a strict reading of
>the sentence on p 32 Man and Machine (not Cannon Companion) would indicate
>that if a substitution of smartlink-2 processor for a standard processor
>"...(any of above substitutions are made)..." would constitute a
>non-cybernetic replacement. The only "non-cybernetic" substitution made in
>the list is of a set of smartgoggles for an eye display.

Check the errata. It says "non-implant" or something near that. I'd
definitely call an external cable "non-implant".

<Snip!>

>In my campaign, this means that a smartgun reader (cyberlink or goggles)
>interfacing with a compatible smartgun or smartgun adapter displays in the
>user's field of vision a 3-dimensional simulation of the predicted ballistic
>path of a bullet fired from that gun. It is up to the user's brain to
>combine this with visual input to show where the bullet is going to go in
>the real world. (Fiction descriptions of a smartgun system putting a point
>in the user's field of vision don't work for me, since the smartgun has no
>idea at what point in the trajectory the point should be - no rangefinding
>ability. Thus, a ballistic projection). This feature gives a smartgun user a
>-1 target number modification, this same as a laser sight (same function,
>except the "laser" is not visible to others, and is slightly more
>ballistically accurate).

Interesting idea for the "visual" representation. However, because of the
simsense link, I'd wager a full-bore smartlink has access to the eyes
normal depth-perception ability. Adding a real ranger finder just makes it
more accurate.

>A cybernetic smartgun link interfacing with a properly configured gun allows
>the user to cybernetically activate the firing mechanism *exactly* when the
>user desires. Combined with the extra ballistic accuracy afforded by a
>smartgun system over a laser; this accounts for the additional -1 TN mod
>enjoyed by cybernetic smartlink users. This does limit external smartgun
>adapters slightly; unless the gun is "smartlink-ready" and has the necessary
>connections for the feedback loop, it can only be used at the -1 TN level.

This is a departure from the rules here. An external smartgun adapter works
just as well as an integral one. It just takes an hour to configure and
align it to the particular weapon once you've attached it.

>Smartgun-II systems, incidentally, are primarily only available as
>cybernetic systems, and must have the ability to have the firearm's firing
>action controlled by external electronics. They work by allowing the user to
>designate a point in their field of vision. This is the desired impact
>point. The smartlink-II then does two things: it indicates by simrig and
>visual feedback to the user how to move his body to put the ballistic path
>on target, and when the ballistic path and the impact point intersect, the
>processor automatically fires the weapon, short-circuiting the OODC loop for
>that action. Technically, I suppose a smartlink-II goggle system could work,
>*if* it was connected by DNI to the user via a datalink, and the firearm
>could accept remote-fire commands.

Well, most of this paragraph is irrelevant and incorrect by the rules, only
applying if you ignore the above statement and go with your non-canon
interpretation (which is fine for your own game, of course).

However, a simrig doesn't tell "the user how to move his body". It just
/does/ it. With a smartlink, you're more accurate because it smooths over
and automates part of the human element.

>Any full-function smartgun (either smart from the factory, or with the
>proper interfaces to hook a smartgun adapter to) also provides to the user
>all kinds of minutae: rounds fired in service life, rounds fired through
>current barrel, current barrel temps, ammo count in magazine, ammo type in
>magazine (with compatible ammo), perhaps current barrel alignment (necessary
>info for the processor to determine ballistic path), etc.

Aside from the bit about "proper interfaces," this is all fluff stuff I'd
give to Smartlink users too. As a note, SR3 p276 indicates that almost all
weapons have a digital ammo readout. For your view, this bit sort of
indicates that /all/ weapons have some sort of electronic interface (which,
even using your technological rationale, indicates that an internal and
external smartlink should be no different).

>I realize this is somewhat more restrictive than canon in what weapons might
>be suitable for full smartlink operation, and more generous as regards

Very much so.

>piecemeal cybernetic smartgun links. Particularly, from my (limited)
>knowledge of firearms, I don't believe a revolver could be made as a
>full-function smartgun without some means of driving the cylinder. Also,

Yes, and in a world where most weapons are available caseless (same page
reference from above), it'd make revolvers a pretty poor choice. Much of
the ammo you'd buy in a store wouldn't fit a like-caliber revolver.

>trigger assemblies in general would have to be less mechanical and more
>electronic; perhaps the hammer would have to be replaced by some kind of
>electrical firing mechanism, either a solenoid or an electrically-fired

Probably a better way to fire caseless rounds anyway.

>primer. Or a servomechanism could be used - this could allow an older weapon
>to be smart-fired, if the adapter kit includes a device to insert into the
>trigger guard to "manually" fire the weapon. Such a device might preclude
>full-manual function of the weapon until removed, but that shouldn't be an
>issue for someone who needs to cybernetically fire the weapon; after all, he
>had better have a datajack to issue the firing command with.

An induction pad, you mean. If they can make one that fits under the skin,
they can certainly make one that's thin enough to adhere to the gun and not
be awkward to hold.

>At any rate, this means that non-cybernetic smartgun systems (goggles) must
>still be able to determine the position of the firearm with respect to the
>goggles so the proper ballistic path can be determined. (Canon requires this

I'd imagine that the smartgoggles have some sort of camera-like device
built in and some way to recognize the profile of the weapon (perhaps part
of the data a gun sends is just that, what kind of gun it is).

>too). Nonetheless, it looks like a smartlinks floating firearm isn't
>terribly useful (a laser sight is at least as useful), so I'm going to drop
>that part of it. A floating firearms is still damn useful, in my mind.

Using my above supposition, it'd work just as well as smartgoggles (which
is to say, just like a laser sight too). You can't induction rig a floating
gun.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman

From:	silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject:	Magic Fingers, firearms, and you (Was Shiva-style Gun-fu)
Date:	Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:30:42 -0500

Message no. 6 I'm snipping the entire thing because things were getting exceeding long;
I'll try and respond point-by-point.

***
"Check the errata. It says "non-implant" or something near that. I'd
definitely call an external cable "non-implant"."

Thanks for the pointer to the errata - that clears up things substantially.
I would disagree about the cable. Assuming that the smartlink system is
routed to the datajack in question; does it matter whether the input to the
datajack is coming from an induction pad on the weapon or is piped through a
cable first? I can't see that it does. After all, the palm pad is being
replaced by another implant system, the datajack. (And see later note about
indction datajacks).
***

"Interesting idea for the "visual" representation. However, because of the
simsense link, I'd wager a full-bore smartlink has access to the eyes
normal depth-perception ability. Adding a real ranger finder just makes it
more accurate."

Regardless of whether or not the smartlink processor has access to a
rangefinder, (human eye or cybernetic implant), it still has no idea of the
distance to a specific target in the user's field of vision. The human eye
doesn't hold still enough for the focal point to be useful. Human range
finding is done in the brain, not in the eye, at any rate, which I much
doubt the limited simrig has access to (the full-bore one does, but that's a
horse of a different color).

***
"This is a departure from the rules here. An external smartgun adapter works

just as well as an integral one. It just takes an hour to configure and
align it to the particular weapon once you've attached it."

Please note that I qualified my answer: "unless the gun is
"smartlink-ready"
and has the necessary connections for the feedback loop". It could be
assumed that most weapons available on the market are "smartlink-ready". I
do generally assume so, in my campaign. The cost of a smartgun adapter is
non-trivial for pistols (in some cases, an internal smartlink model would be
cheaper than the external adapter), and still a significant cost for most
longarms and SMGs. And a lot of the trivial data available to a smartgun is
still nice for the firearms collectors to decant into their computers/PDAs
for later analysis. I would imagine that some of the really budget weapons
don't include the necessary sensors and firing mechanisms, but that most do.
***

"Well, most of this paragraph is irrelevant and incorrect by the rules, only

applying if you ignore the above statement and go with your non-canon
interpretation (which is fine for your own game, of course)."

If I allow most weapons to be "smartlink-ready" I come much closer to canon.
We are never told why a smartlink-II gains its bonus to called shots (the
only performance increase over the older system), so I had to wing it.
***

"However, a simrig doesn't tell "the user how to move his body". It just
/does/ it. With a smartlink, you're more accurate because it smooths over
and automates part of the human element."

Simrigs do *not* move the body, simrigs *record* the user's neuromuscular
activity to be recorded into a simchip. This chip is then played by someone
who has a datajack so they can experience the recording - there is a safety
lockup in most datajacks that *locks out* the body's reaction to sim (more
info in decking). The limited simrig employed by the smartgun system
presumably is used to feed the processor with the user's body positioning so
the processor can locate the gun. I'm expanding on the rules a bit to allow
the processor to feed back to the user an indication of how he should move.
(Ref, P 301 SR3).
***

"Aside from the bit about "proper interfaces," this is all fluff stuff I'd
give to Smartlink users too. As a note, SR3 p276 indicates that almost all
weapons have a digital ammo readout. For your view, this bit sort of
indicates that /all/ weapons have some sort of electronic interface (which,
even using your technological rationale, indicates that an internal and
external smartlink should be no different)."

I do give the smartlink user all the "fluff" stuff - accessible as desired
in their field of view. And, all fluff aside, I doubt that some of the
budget guns do have the electronics. For one thing, ammo indicators on a 2
or 4-shot derringer are a little silly. And for another, I sincerely doubt
that all firearms available in 2060 will be up to date - there are people
out there still enjoying their M1911A1 pistols, M1 Springfields, etc. This
gives me the option of putting legacy weapons in (or really cheap ones).
***

"Yes, and in a world where most weapons are available caseless (same page
reference from above), it'd make revolvers a pretty poor choice. Much of
the ammo you'd buy in a store wouldn't fit a like-caliber revolver."

And on the next page is the Ruger Super Warhawk, a revolver. Clearly, the
revolver isn't going away. (It can "accept all standard accessories, except
a silencer", so I'd guess that the integral smartlink version does have a
servo to drive the chamber as a smartgun). Pretty popular pistol, at least
as a backup or for a less-skilled wielder, in my experience.
***

">trigger assemblies in general would have to be less mechanical and more
>electronic; perhaps the hammer would have to be replaced by some kind of
>electrical firing mechanism, either a solenoid or an electrically-fired

Probably a better way to fire caseless rounds anyway.

>primer. Or a servomechanism could be used - this could allow an older
weapon
>to be smart-fired, if the adapter kit includes a device to insert into the
>trigger guard to "manually" fire the weapon. Such a device might preclude
>full-manual function of the weapon until removed, but that shouldn't be an
>issue for someone who needs to cybernetically fire the weapon; after all,
>he had better have a datajack to issue the firing command with.

An induction pad, you mean. If they can make one that fits under the skin,
they can certainly make one that's thin enough to adhere to the gun and not
be awkward to hold."

An induction pad is a datajack, the one that comes with a smartgun link is
just really cheap (presumably it doesn't include the router, and is rather
low-bandwidth). Check the essence numbers. I was assuming that a smartgun
adapter normally uses an induction link to the user.
***

"I'd imagine that the smartgoggles have some sort of camera-like device
built in and some way to recognize the profile of the weapon (perhaps part
of the data a gun sends is just that, what kind of gun it is)."

All the smartgoggle needs to be able to do is locate the smartgun in 3-space
relative to the goggles. After that, the gun tells the goggles which way
they are pointing. The easiest way I can think of to do that (without
emitting anything) is to have the cable linking the gun and the goggles be
able to report its current shape to the goggles. No image recognition to
fool, no transmissions to jam or detect.
***

For more flexibility, allow an external smartgun processor, so the decker
with the datajack and image link can just plug his gun into his head to
enjoy smartgoggle benefits (not cyberlink - no simrig. If he has a simrig,
of course, he could use that, and gain cyberlink benefits; I can't see any
reason that the processor cares what side of the datajack it is on as long
as all the info is available, and a two-way communication between the gun
and user's brain exists).

From:	tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject:	Magic Fingers, firearms, and you (Was Shiva-style Gun-fu)
Date:	Wed, 04 Feb 2004 03:05:54 -0500

Message no. 7 At 02:30 AM 2/4/2004, Jonathan Hurley wrote:
>Simrigs do *not* move the body, simrigs *record* the user's neuromuscular
>activity to be recorded into a simchip. This chip is then played by someone
>who has a datajack so they can experience the recording - there is a safety
>lockup in most datajacks that *locks out* the body's reaction to sim (more
>info in decking). The limited simrig employed by the smartgun system
>presumably is used to feed the processor with the user's body positioning so
>the processor can locate the gun. I'm expanding on the rules a bit to allow
>the processor to feed back to the user an indication of how he should move.
>(Ref, P 301 SR3).
>***

They do if no RAS override is present, or more precisely the body does what
the simrig tells it to. It's the RAS override that prevents deckers,
chipheads, and riggers from making movements, not the associated simsense
device.

Skillwires are simsense based devices, too. They wouldn't function at all
if simsense couldn't drive the body.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman

From:	gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject:	Magic Fingers, firearms, and you (Was Shiva-style Gun-fu)
Date:	Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:23:41 +0100

Message no. 8 According to Timothy J. Lanza, on Wednesday 04 February 2004 05:36 the word
on the street was...

> Check the errata. It says "non-implant" or something near that. I'd
> definitely call an external cable "non-implant".

I consider smartlinks using an external cable as fully cybernetic. It just
makes no sense to say that the cable has any effect on how well the
smartlink will function -- it'd be like finding that your computer works
less well with an external modem than with an internal one.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've been touched by the doubt of man
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject:	Magic Fingers, firearms, and you (Was Shiva-style Gun-fu)
Date:	Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:08:09 -0500

Message no. 9 -----Original Message-----
From: Timothy J. Lanza
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 3:06 AM
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: RE: Magic Fingers, firearms, and you (Was Shiva-style Gun-fu)
(Attn: Paul Adam please comment :)

At 02:30 AM 2/4/2004, Jonathan Hurley wrote:
>Simrigs do *not* move the body, simrigs *record* the user's neuromuscular
>activity to be recorded into a simchip. This chip is then played by someone
>who has a datajack so they can experience the recording - there is a safety
>lockup in most datajacks that *locks out* the body's reaction to sim (more
>info in decking). The limited simrig employed by the smartgun system
>presumably is used to feed the processor with the user's body positioning
so
>the processor can locate the gun. I'm expanding on the rules a bit to allow
>the processor to feed back to the user an indication of how he should move.
>(Ref, P 301 SR3).
>***

They do if no RAS override is present, or more precisely the body does what
the simrig tells it to. It's the RAS override that prevents deckers,
chipheads, and riggers from making movements, not the associated simsense
device.

Skillwires are simsense based devices, too. They wouldn't function at all
if simsense couldn't drive the body.

-----Reply Message-----

When did skillwires come into play? For that matter, when did the subject of
RAS overrides come into play? A simrig is primarily a *recording* device.
While it can be used as a simdeck, simdecks *do* have RAS override. And
that's a full 2 essence simrig. The limited (.1 essence) simrig that a
normal smartlink has is "for body posture/gun position sensing" (p32 M&M). I
don't think it is likely that the limited purpose simrig has the playback
features of the full-on one. I also don't think a skillwire system moves the
body either; it just tells the user what to do. The lack of muscle memory
(important for physical activity) is one of the reasons skillwires don't
allow access to pool dice.

At any rate, given the choice between requiring Smartlink-II users to diable
a RAS override, and just dropping that bit of the fluff *I* came up with
(canon doesn't tell us *how* the extra bonus is achieved), I'll just drop
that part of the fluff. I still have the user being able to designate a
target in 3-space and the gun firing when the ballistic path crosses it.
(Which, on deeper reflection, I still don't like. I'm going to have to
ponder this a bit).

At this point, we are both out of canon source material, and into GM call.
So it doesn't' matter from a mechanics standpoint. And I do thank you for
your input.

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