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Message no. 1
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Magicians and cyber
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:03:52 -0500
Okay, I know that there are some people who are fundamentally opposed to
magicians having any cyberware. Then there are those (like myself) who
don't see a problem with it, especially if it's in character.

I'm not going to argue about that though; it's been done to death.

What I am curious about is which magician the list thinks is more effective.

On the one hand, the cybered combat mage (who usually has at least
cybereyes and a Smartgun link 2 and often has boosted reflexes or some sort
of headware like an encephalon) doesn't have to rely on his magic as much;
instead of casting a spell everytime, the combat mage can use a gun and
have a good chance of hitting something. And low-light and thermo are a
definite plus.

On the other hand, that cyber means the magician takes a hit in his Magic
rating, which also affects how much magic pool he can throw into a spell.
Cybermage might not be as effective with a spell as his non-cybered brother.

With several grades of initiation, the cybermage regains most of that magic
ability, but will always lag behind a bit.

Thing is though, the magicians with cybereyes and a smartlink (1 or 2)
always seem to survive much better than the non-cybered magicians. The
ability to use a smartgun seems to mean that the magician can hold back
their power until it is needed and not risk falling unconsious in the
middle of the run.

So, in game, and particularly in combat, which magician is more effective?

Erik J.


"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
Message no. 2
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:12:25 -0600
> So, in game, and particularly in combat, which magician is more effective?

Reaching into my bag of stock answers: Whichever one uses what he has to his
upmost ability.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
************
Yet, I'm also a man who's constantly strivin' for a perfection I'll never
achieve... and probably wouldn't even recognize it if I did.
-Logan, in issue 124 of "Wolverine"
***********
Am Moireach Mor!
Message no. 3
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:28:34 +1000
Erik Jameson writes:
>On the one hand, the cybered combat mage (who usually has at least
>cybereyes and a Smartgun link 2 and often has boosted reflexes or some sort
>of headware like an encephalon) doesn't have to rely on his magic as much;
>instead of casting a spell everytime, the combat mage can use a gun and
>have a good chance of hitting something. And low-light and thermo are a
>definite plus.


Bingo! Any combat mage worth his salt will have image enhancements. It's the
old saw of magic: "If I can see it, I can cast a spell at it. If I can cast
a spell at it, it's dead!" Sure, you could use hypersenses spells to give
you the same effect, but the last thing you need is to have your "Low-light
vision" quickened lock broken in the middle of combat in the dark.

Reflex enhancements are nice, but I think a combat mage would use reflex
enhancing spells, rather than pay the _serious_ essence/bioware costs for
such things.

A smartgun link? If he's got the essence spare after the cybereyes, probably
yes ("Hey, it won't hurt, and it might come in handy").

It comes down to a decision of effectiveness for the mage. He has to decided
if the slight reduction in magical talent is worth the increased
flexibility. I'd say, for a combat mage, the cybereyes are a definate must.
The rest is iffy.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 4
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:14:40 -0500
Erik Jameson asked:
>Okay, I know that there are some people who are fundamentally opposed to
>magicians having any cyberware. Then there are those (like myself) who
>don't see a problem with it, especially if it's in character.

Oh boy. This's gonna be fun. :-)

>I'm not going to argue about that though; it's been done to death.
>
>What I am curious about is which magician the list thinks is more effective.

I'll say the Aztech-trained combat mage with the trauma damper,
platelet factory, synaptic accelerator and MBW level 4. Ick.

Oh, should I have waited to hear the choices first? :-)

He's an actual character in our campaign - he didn't have the MBW
until recently. Up until that point he was pretty effective -
pacifist, very anti-Aztech, runs a hospital in the barrens. Then
we got a job to investigate some facility and seeing as he was the
only one who could pass for normal he went in undercover. Then
they operated. The GM wasn't feeling mean enough to give him a VCR
and totally rob him of his magic (and the surgeon rolled *all* sixes,
if you can believe it).

So now we've got a disgusting combat mage who acts 3-4 times before
the rest of the party (we're all pretty slow - no *real* sams in the
bunch).
>
>On the one hand, the cybered combat mage (who usually has at least
>cybereyes and a Smartgun link 2 and often has boosted reflexes or some sort
>of headware like an encephalon) doesn't have to rely on his magic as much;
>instead of casting a spell everytime, the combat mage can use a gun and
>have a good chance of hitting something. And low-light and thermo are a
>definite plus.

Actually, Lucifer (the mage) is considering doing just that, but
his magic is always just so close to hand...
>
>On the other hand, that cyber means the magician takes a hit in his Magic
>rating, which also affects how much magic pool he can throw into a spell.
>Cybermage might not be as effective with a spell as his non-cybered brother.
>
>With several grades of initiation, the cybermage regains most of that magic
>ability, but will always lag behind a bit.

Big deal. So he takes physical drain on resisted spells. Just make
sure you can soak drain.
>
>Thing is though, the magicians with cybereyes and a smartlink (1 or 2)
>always seem to survive much better than the non-cybered magicians. The
>ability to use a smartgun seems to mean that the magician can hold back
>their power until it is needed and not risk falling unconsious in the
>middle of the run.

Well, seeing as Lucifer is the only healer in the party, we try and
protect him, but seeing as he's our most effective offense... We
haven't lost him yet, anyway.
>
>So, in game, and particularly in combat, which magician is more effective?

Heh. Thought I answered that? :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:10:49 -0700
Erik Jameson wrote:
/
[snip: Pure magician or cybered magician]
/
/ So, in game, and particularly in combat, which magician is more effective?

In game it depends on the player :)

As for combat, hmmm...

Sorry, but I'm going to fall back on the "depends" arguement :)

It depends on the ammount of cyberware. The mage that wisely invests
1 point of essence would have an edge, IMHO. Cybereyes with low
light and image magnification combined with a smart link get you a
lot of bang for your buck.

The mage that spends 2 points of essence is walking a fine line.
Most of his spells will be cast at force 4 or less untill he
initiates. At this point he's down 2 dice from his magic pool and
limited in his spell casting. After a couple of levels of initiation
the one with the cyberware has the edge, IMO, assuming that the mage
made good decisions and purchased cyberware compatable with his
combat style.

Spending 3 points of essence, or more, is counterproductive IMHO.
Even after initiating the cybered mage will have 3 less magic pool
dice then the pure mage, and that's a lot.

-David
--
"Belief is a truth held in the mind.
Faith is a fire in the heart."
- Joseph F. Newton
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 6
From: Callahan <callahan@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:53:31 -0500
Erik Jameson asked:
>Okay, I know that there are some people who are fundamentally opposed to
>magicians having any cyberware. Then there are those (like myself) who
>don't see a problem with it, especially if it's in character.
<snip>
>So, in game, and particularly in combat, which magician is more
effective?


James Ojaste replied,
> I'll say the Aztech-trained combat mage with the trauma damper,
> platelet factory, synaptic accelerator and MBW level 4. Ick.

I'm gonna take a different tack here. I'd propose that asking which
magician is more effective is the wrong question. The right question,
IMHO, is which magician can contribute the most to the team.

Lemme explain.

To my mind, the issue isn't whether or not a magician can outfight a
samurai or kick the hoops of entire legions of Jaguar Guards or whatever.
The issue is "how does the magician maximize his contribution to the
team?". Before deciding to create a cybered or noncybered magician
character, the player ought to consider his options in light of the needs
of the team he'll be playing with. If the team is large and top-heavy with
chrome-loaded samurai then the mage's ability to kick physical butt is much
less. OTOH, if the team is a small, tight, interdependent crew of 3 or 4
players, then cross-functionality and flexibility become more important to
the success of the team.

An example or two...

I RP with this guy who plays a mage that started out as a combat mage with
some cyber...part of some CIA/Special Forces/whatever project to make some
killer black bag teams. The guy had Synaptic Accelerator-1, a Trauma Damper
and a Datajack. He started with a 5 Magic and was a little limited in the
power of spells he could cast and so on. However, he was able to really
soak up the Drain with the Trauma Damper, so maybe it worked out even (he
couldn't cast extra-powerful spells, but he could cast some lighter-weight
spells alll day and never break a sweat...).

Anyways, so this mage was a passable samurai. He also had some basic
computer skill. Through RP, he developed an increased interest in the
Matrix and started working on his Computer skill. He was a real busy guy,
with his arcane studies and his Matrix work, but it all worked out. When
the dust settled, the mage was a solid support mage for his team, a
competent combatant (better than most corp security schleps) and a passable
backup decker. He contributed in many ways to the team and became a major
asset on many of their runs.

Another fella I play with RPs an astral adept. He's a total pushover in
physical space (wheelchair-bound and everything), but astally he can really
kick some hoop. Generally, the team HE plays with relies upon the adept to
take the magic out of the equation for their Shadowruns. The astral adept
provides recon and such, but in a fight, his focus is to eliminate the
magical threat from opposing mages and/or spells and/or other paranatural
things. As an astral adept, he was free to pump all of his Karma into
becoming frighteningly effective at astral combat and the other activities
he can perform. He's much less versatile than the other mage (above), but
he's also part of a larger team, so it's less critical for him to be
cross-functional. Wheras it'd be pointless for this guy to be cybered up
and loaded for bear, by remaining uncybered, he maximizes his effectiveness
at what's needed most and thereby maximizes his contribution to the team.

To sum up, I guess what I'm saying here is that I beleive that the key
determination of true effectiveness in a mage is how much he can contribute
to his shadowrun crew. The abovementioned Aztech combat mage cybered to the
gills can be rated according to how much the team he runs with really needs
another character with reaction up the wazoo and combat skills. If the
rest of the team was all chromed out (JO notes that they werent) then
there'd be less need for this kind of thing and maybe it should have been
avoided to make sure the mage stayed as effective as possible in his
healing role (which would most assuredly be reduced by the godawful amount
of chrome implanted in the poor bugger).

Comments and criticisms welcomed.

Cheerio,

Callahan

Quote: "Don't waste a bullet unless you earn two more."
----Interim, ork shadowrunner
Message no. 7
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:15:57 -0500
>James Ojaste replied,
>> I'll say the Aztech-trained combat mage with the trauma damper,
>> platelet factory, synaptic accelerator and MBW level 4. Ick.
>
>I'm gonna take a different tack here. I'd propose that asking which
>magician is more effective is the wrong question. The right question,
>IMHO, is which magician can contribute the most to the team.

OK.

[snip]
>
>To sum up, I guess what I'm saying here is that I beleive that the key
>determination of true effectiveness in a mage is how much he can contribute
>to his shadowrun crew. The abovementioned Aztech combat mage cybered to the

He is central to the party - he's currently the only mage (although
we're picking up a couple more tomorrow), the only person with any
first aid (level 1!) and the only really *trusting* character.
Without him, things would go downhill fast.

>gills can be rated according to how much the team he runs with really needs
>another character with reaction up the wazoo and combat skills. If the
>rest of the team was all chromed out (JO notes that they werent) then
>there'd be less need for this kind of thing and maybe it should have been
>avoided to make sure the mage stayed as effective as possible in his
>healing role (which would most assuredly be reduced by the godawful amount
>of chrome implanted in the poor bugger).

Well, to be honest, the healing is nice but not necessary. It's his
ability to cast stun balls 5 times a turn. Even speed sams have to
watch out for him - sure he's soaking physical drain, but he *is*
soaking it (after all, what else can he use his magic pool for? :-).

On the other hand, he still does go around healing the enemy without
problems. Bloody pacifist. :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 8
From: "Ryan W. Bolduan" <emeottrw@***.MRS.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:40:46 -0600
On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:

> >James Ojaste replied,
> >> I'll say the Aztech-trained combat mage with the trauma damper,
> >> platelet factory, synaptic accelerator and MBW level 4. Ick.
> >
> >I'm gonna take a different tack here. I'd propose that asking which
> >magician is more effective is the wrong question. The right question,
> >IMHO, is which magician can contribute the most to the team.
>
I also had a mage that had a fair amount of cyberware. She was a sorcery
adept that in her history was explained that she did not realise she was
magically active until she had already installed quite a bit of cyber and
bioware. In actuality she had two points of cyber, and almost two points
of bioware. This gave her a starting magic rating of two. Interestingly
I had a bunch of piddly little 2 point spells, (and a couple 4 point which
I took physical drain for) that worked very well. I deliberately took the
spells which only require one or two successes to make moderately
effective, gecko crawl for example. It worked out very well, and she
became a valued member of the team both magically and as a physical
presence. The last time I played her she had obtained her 2nd level of
initiation, was back up to 4 points of magic, and was becoming a very well
rounded character.

I can't say there is anything wrong with magic and cyber. If somebody has
an explanation to why they're doing what they are doing it's fine.
Besides, even a fair number of little spells can work wonders when you're
on a run. Who needs hellblast when you've got a couple of grenades.

--
Wherever you go, there you are.
Ryan Bolduan
emeottrw@***.mrs.umn.edu
Message no. 9
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:35:53 +0000
> magician is more effective is the wrong question. The right question,
> IMHO, is which magician can contribute the most to the team.
>
> Lemme explain.
>
> To my mind, the issue isn't whether or not a magician can outfight a
> samurai or kick the hoops of entire legions of Jaguar Guards or whatever.
> The issue is "how does the magician maximize his contribution to the
> team?". Before deciding to create a cybered or noncybered magician


RTOFL! Sorry, but my players are perhaps the biggest bunch of
backstabbing manipulating evil creatures on the planet. They will
accept being on a team because it gives the enemies different
targets, but they don't worry too much about what each of the others
can and can't do.

-=SwiftOne=-

Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 10
From: Tony Campbell <tbacampbell@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:06:27 PST
On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:03:52 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> wrote:

Okay, I know that there are some people who are fundamentally opposed to
magicians having any cyberware.

<<snip pros and cons of cybered vs. non-cybered mages>>

So, in game, and particularly in combat, which magician is more
effective?
Message no. 11
From: Callahan <callahan@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:21:10 -0500
Brett Borger Wrote:

> RTOFL! Sorry, but my players are perhaps the biggest bunch of
> backstabbing manipulating evil creatures on the planet. They will
> accept being on a team because it gives the enemies different
> targets, but they don't worry too much about what each of the others
> can and can't do.

My mistake. I must have accidentally slipped over here from a parallel
dimension in which roleplaying is about more than just RPing one character
for personal RP aggrandizement. *grin* Y'see, where I come from, the
players CAN'T WIN without cooperating. Then again, we generally played THE
GOOD GUYS. We had one guy that always wanted to play the bad guy (he
started by asking to play Chaotic Evil when we were little 'uns playing
that nasty T$R fantasy game and he just kept getting worse) but we
eventually just moved our gaming sessions and never told him about our new
location.

Anyone gotta free spirit handy? I think I need an astral gateway to get
back to where I belong.

Brett: in all seriousness, if your players LIKE being backstabbing
evildoers and you like running a game like that, that's kewl...as I stated
in my original mailing, the concept of teamwork was part of my opinion.
I've had the odd player who wanted to play in my game that wasn't willing
to accept the idea that he (oddly it's never the SHEs....the rare female
roleplayers you find usually seem to be team players...hmmm) was supposed
to cooperate. In those instances, I attempted to explain WHY we were
playing in cooperative mode

[[insert transcript file "Callahan_educates_psycho_gamer.txt]]

"uhh, Ted? Put the chainsaw down. Ted! Down! Thanks....now, y'see, we're
playing the good guys here. I kinda LIKE the way that Rico's crew from
Fade to Black worked together. I kinda LIKE the way Assets Inc. trust each
other. And that's the kind of game we're shooting for here."

"No, Ted...the sociopaths all work for Aztechnology . . . the shadowrunners
are not necessarily the happy shiny people, but they're at the very least
neutral in terms of morality."

"Tell ya what Teddy, why don't you give my buddy Blair a call...he's
running a Paranoia(tm) game. Well, actually, it's Shadowrun, but he runs it
LIKE it's Paranoia. You'll have fun with him. Really."

[[end file]]

Sadly, the superparanoidbackstabberninja-types like Ted generally didn't
understand and I politely booted them out of my games.

Actually, I see a lot of "oh, my players would never go for that" or "my
players wouldn't accept that" in posts by various people on the list. Maybe
I'm a pushy control freak or something, but if someone's going to play in a
game I pour effort into running, then they'll bloody well play on my terms
or not at all. *grin* Which brings me to a

Question for the List: Who's in charge of the shadowrun game? The GM or the
players?

Regards,

Callahan

Quote: "All we have to fear is fear itself. Well, that and that big
drag..*
*crunch*
----Kyle Vulcan, ex-street samurai
Message no. 12
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:04:51 -0500
On Thu, Apr 02, 1998 at 02:21:10PM -0500, Callahan wrote:
> Brett Borger Wrote:
>
<SNIP rant>
> Sadly, the superparanoidbackstabberninja-types like Ted generally didn't
> understand and I politely booted them out of my games.
>
> Actually, I see a lot of "oh, my players would never go for that" or
"my
> players wouldn't accept that" in posts by various people on the list. Maybe
> I'm a pushy control freak or something, but if someone's going to play in a
> game I pour effort into running, then they'll bloody well play on my terms
> or not at all. *grin* Which brings me to a
>
> Question for the List: Who's in charge of the shadowrun game? The GM or the
> players?
>
Most definently the GM. But cooperation is still needed.
I've never GM'd a game with a varying groups, the same way.
Some players like hack n slash, some more detective work.
I usually find stick to my core "style" as it were, but without
players, I wouldn't have anybody to play with and visa versa.
If they don't like my style, they move on, and if I don't
like them, I just don't set up games as often. :)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 13
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:28:33 EST
> > RTOFL! Sorry, but my players are perhaps the biggest bunch of
> > backstabbing manipulating evil creatures on the planet. They will
> > accept being on a team because it gives the enemies different
> > targets, but they don't worry too much about what each of the others
> > can and can't do.

> where I come from, the players CAN'T WIN without cooperating. Then
> again, we generally played THE GOOD GUYS. We had one guy that always

*wistful sigh* the good guys. Do you know how much I long to have a
group of good guys? I'm at a player shortage.

> Brett: in all seriousness, if your players LIKE being backstabbing
> evildoers and you like running a game like that, that's kewl...as I

They do. I don't. But it's better than not playing. I still enjoy
playing, just not as much.

> that wasn't willing to accept the idea that he (oddly it's never the
> SHEs....the rare female roleplayers you find usually seem to be team

Nope, I've got a she playing, and she'll toast anyone (except her
current Boyfriend.). Of course, it doesn't help that one other
player is an ex that cheated on her, and another she spurnned.

> "Tell ya what Teddy, why don't you give my buddy Blair a call...he's
> running a Paranoia(tm) game. Well, actually, it's Shadowrun, but he
> runs it LIKE it's Paranoia. You'll have fun with him. Really."

ACtually, I'm planning to run these guys through Paranoia. Hopefully
they'll handle it :)

> Question for the List: Who's in charge of the shadowrun game? The GM
> or the players?

It's an agreement, and if you don't agree, you don't have to play.
Which is where I'm hurting... good > play > not play = bad

-=SwiftOne=-
The Die-Hard Romantic GM
Message no. 14
From: Callahan <callahan@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:25:36 PST
Erik J writes,

>>Okay, I know that there are some people who are fundamentally opposed =
to
>>magicians having any cyberware. Then there are those (like myself) who
>>don't see a problem with it, especially if it's in character.
>>
>>. . .
>>
>>What I am curious about is which magician the list thinks is more effec=
tive.

I happen to RP with this one fella who plays an ex-Special Forces hermeti=
c mage who has a Trauma Damper and Synaptic Accelerator-1 installed, alon=
g with a Datajack as part of his regimen for an elite unit. So he was =
a decent combat mage and an okay soldier. THEN, he RP into an interest =
in computers and developed it into some decent Computer (software) skill =
and ta-daa! He's a not-bad backup decker. To boot, he kicks some serious =
ass when it comes to resisting drain with the Trauma Damper, so maybe the=
Magic Loss isn't so bad... *grin* He's part samurai, part mage and part =
decker. He also has buckets of fun RPing and he contributes a lot to his =
team.

I don't know about what the "typical" shadowrun group among the list memb=
ers looks like (I'm among the newly-spammed, myself), but most groups I'v=
e played with value diversity and multiple backups.

Not only does having a backup for most positions on a shadowteam make for=
some much-needed redundancy of function (backup rigger, backup decker, =
etc) but it also provides a natural source of inter-player RP as the "lea=
d" character passes on wisdom to the backup guy, and so on.

To my mind, asking which mage will be more effective in combat is the WRO=
NG question. The question to ask is, "Which mage will add the most value =
to the team?" Arguments can be made for "pure" and "augmented"
mages but =
I've generally found that giving up that 1 point of Magic Attr and Essenc=
e can really open up opportunities for the magician to be more flexible =
and contribute more to the team, whether it's with improved combat abilit=
ies (spend your Karma on spells and focii instead of quickening all those=
spells on yourself till you glow with manacircuits) or even something =
more unique like a cyberarm or toxin exhaler or what-have-you.

The moral of all this?

Yeah, I think that cybered mages can be more effective in their contribut=
ions to a team. IMHO, the shadowrun team that NEEDS their mage to be a =
combat god are taking the wrong kinds of shadowruns anyways (Uh, no, Mr. =
J.....we'll take a big pass on the frontal assault vs. the Raku arcology =
thanks . . . )

Cheerio, all.
Message no. 15
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:37:28 -0700
The SwiftOne spun this tale:

<snipperooo>


> RTOFL! Sorry, but my players are perhaps the biggest bunch of
> backstabbing manipulating evil creatures on the planet. They will
> accept being on a team because it gives the enemies different
> targets, but they don't worry too much about what each of the others
> can and can't do.

How sad...for me the team as a whole is the best part of playing the
game...sure there is antagonism, but I can't see going through the life of
a Shadowrunner and not having someone you can count on by your side, and I
sure as hell want to know what they can and cannot do. Ah well to each his
own.

Caric

"No Gnu's is good Gnu's"

-The Great Space Coaster (I think :)
Message no. 16
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:49:56 -0700
Callahan ranted thusly: :)

<snip the bit about teamwork, while poignant and correct IMHO it was rather
long to include in order for me to reply to the below question :) >

> Question for the List: Who's in charge of the shadowrun game? The GM or
the
> players?

This in my group is definately a two way street, Loki runs the world how he
wants too, and we all live in that world, but he wouldn't even try to tell
me or any of us how to run our characters. We can do what we will, but be
prepared to face the consequences of those actions. If I don't want to
cooperate or go on a specific run then so be it, but he's not going to stop
the rest of the group from going if they want to (this has only happened
once in my admittedly cloudy memory, but still the potential is there)
likewise i'm not tied into doing any run his way...other resolutions are
always possible. We have had to remove players from our group on the rare
occasion, but only because they hindered the fun or the entire rest of the
group, other then that it is OUR game we all just control different
aspects. Although I do think Loki was pissed that we all left a certain
corp we were working for prior to him being able to take us on the tourney
run from last gencon. :)


Caric-the-damn-I-hope-that-made-sense-shaman
Message no. 17
From: Chris Lubrecht <lubrecht@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:43:04 -0500
At 05:37 PM 4/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>The SwiftOne spun this tale:
>

>"No Gnu's is good Gnu's"
>
>-The Great Space Coaster (I think :)


Damn I'm old...


"The Great space coaster..come on board! Lets fly out together..."


Sheesh :)

Nigel
Message no. 18
From: Jacob Engstrom <sabredanz@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:29:27 EST
On Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:21:10 -0500 Callahan <callahan@********.COM>
writes:
>Brett Borger Wrote:
>I've had the odd player who wanted to play in my game >that wasn't
willing to accept the idea that he (oddly >it's never the SHEs....the
rare female roleplayers you >find usually seem to be team players...hmmm)


HEHEHEHEHEHA!
Whooooo, You gotta met my Partner, She has in the last year gunned down
six char, four died. She always has done it in a way in keeping with her
characters personalities and motives, but Jesus, the one game she took on
the entire party because they were treatening the destrution of Dinotopia
(don't ask) and put down two out of the six, man it was a site to see,
specially since she was a non-cybered Rat Shaman.

J.T. Engstrom

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Message no. 19
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:30:33 -0600
At 09:28 AM 98-04-02 +1000, you wrote:
>Erik Jameson writes:

>Reflex enhancements are nice, but I think a combat mage would use reflex
>enhancing spells, rather than pay the _serious_ essence/bioware costs for
>such things.

Actually if you wanted to get perverse (and stop your mage from having
rating higher then a sam) you could rule that reflex enhancing spells speed
up aging and have other health related side effects (in other words these
things are not for long term use). This means that the mage is probably
going to put them in a lock and if you rule that the +3d6 version is
incapatable with a spell lock well at least the sams have a chance.

As for using guns over magic well all I can say is it depends on the mage.
If your playing an albino were-fox with charisma and wil both one above
species max (SrComp edge) and you have a sourcery rating of around 9 you
arn't going to have to many problems wtih drain (and if you're a level two
initiate casting an 8D mana spell and centering well he's toast and you're
going to walk away). Serously the only were creature I really find scarry
are the foxs everything else evens out but they're some of the most
powerfull mages you're ever going to see (yes I said mages, foxes have a +1
int you know are I belive inclided in that direction by folklore, so how
would you like to meet a force 18 spirit in a dark alley. Hell I'd say the
thing has a 50/50 chance agaiinst a whole armored division). Needless to
say I don't let were-foxes into my game.

SteveD
>
>--
>.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 20
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:00:21 -0700
/ > Brett Borger Wrote:
/ >
/ > Question for the List: Who's in charge of the shadowrun game? The GM or the
/ > players?

The GM is in charge of the game environment and is responsible for
entertaining the players.

The players are in charge of their characters and are responsible for
roleplaying their character consistently.

-David
--
"Belief is a truth held in the mind.
Faith is a fire in the heart."
- Joseph F. Newton
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 21
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:33:23 -0600
> The GM is in charge of the game environment and is responsible for
> entertaining the players.
>
> The players are in charge of their characters and are responsible for
> roleplaying their character consistently.

I would change that second one: The players are in charge of their characters
and are responsible for entertaining the GM. I assume that if they're in
charge of their characters, they're going to be role-playing them consistently
(otherwise, they aren't really controlling the character, are they?). However,
the GM wants to have fun too, so if the characters just sit their spanking
their monkeys', the GM isn't going to be very entertained, is he (well, maybe
he will, but that's a different type of group altogether).
Message no. 22
From: "Mikey F. Jr." <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:51:06 -0600
On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Chris Lubrecht wrote:

> At 05:37 PM 4/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >The SwiftOne spun this tale:
> >
>
> >"No Gnu's is good Gnu's"
> >
> >-The Great Space Coaster (I think :)
>
>
> Damn I'm old...
>
Dont say THAT! My Birthday is next Tuesday andI remember watching Baxter!
And I'm only going to be 20!!!!!
>
> "The Great space coaster..come on board! Lets fly out together..."

"The Great Space Coster..... Off we go!"

>
>
> Sheesh :)
>
> Nigel

-=> Czar

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Czar Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/5648
mailto: czregbrt@*********.edu
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I lived my life in a ship in a bottle in a world in a glass jar..."
-Mike Fontaine

"CRACK! SMASH! SHATTER!"
-Hellen Stunkard
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Message no. 23
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:12:45 -0500
At 11:51 AM 4/3/98 -0600, you wrote:
>On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Chris Lubrecht wrote:
>
>> At 05:37 PM 4/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> >The SwiftOne spun this tale:
>> >
>>
>> >"No Gnu's is good Gnu's"
>> >
>> >-The Great Space Coaster (I think :)
>>
>>
>> Damn I'm old...
>>

You know, I must be really old because I have absolutely zero idea what the
heck you are talking about. Either that, or I must have avoided whatever
show this was as a child.

Erik J.


"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."
Message no. 24
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:55:46 -0600
At 10:40 AM 98-04-02 -0600, you wrote:
>On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:

>I also had a mage that had a fair amount of cyberware. She was a sorcery
>adept that in her history was explained that she did not realise she was
>magically active until she had already installed quite a bit of cyber and
>bioware. In actuality she had two points of cyber, and almost two points
>of bioware. This gave her a starting magic rating of two. Interestingly
>I had a bunch of piddly little 2 point spells, (and a couple 4 point which
>I took physical drain for) that worked very well. I deliberately took the
>spells which only require one or two successes to make moderately
>effective, gecko crawl for example. It worked out very well, and she
>became a valued member of the team both magically and as a physical
>presence. The last time I played her she had obtained her 2nd level of
>initiation, was back up to 4 points of magic, and was becoming a very well
>rounded character.

With three books of magic rules an not having played in months I know I'm
getting things confused but isn't the only requirment to summon something
to be magically active. So a summoning adept could have quite alot of
cyber and still not have a problem (though I wouldn't take him under two
magic points that's still 4 points of essence for cyber). I've never had
to deal with a summoning adept so I'm not to sure on this point. Also
flipping through the companion I ran across the summoning talent. Since
I'm in a rigger mood after reading R2 (buy it, use it, worship it) I'm
thinking that instead of paying 15 points to be a shamanic summoning adept
that can only get one type of spirit I can pay those same 15 points for
(your three most likely terrains here probably storm, city and hearth for a
regular SR game). Could make for a scary rigger but most arn't going to
have the 15 points (+ points for a conjuring skill and charisma) to blow.
Still a rigger that was somewhat magically active would make for a nice
character concept..

SteveD

>--
>Wherever you go, there you are.
>Ryan Bolduan
>emeottrw@***.mrs.umn.edu
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 25
From: Chris Lubrecht <lubrecht@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:04:06 -0500
At 11:51 AM 4/3/98 -0600, you wrote:
>On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Chris Lubrecht wrote:
>
>> At 05:37 PM 4/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> >The SwiftOne spun this tale:
>> >
>>
>> >"No Gnu's is good Gnu's"
>> >
>> >-The Great Space Coaster (I think :)
>>
>>
>> Damn I'm old...
>>
>Dont say THAT! My Birthday is next Tuesday andI remember watching Baxter!
>And I'm only going to be 20!!!!!
>>
>> "The Great space coaster..come on board! Lets fly out together..."
>
>"The Great Space Coster..... Off we go!"
>
>


Oh now I feel real bad....31 and climbing....thanks :/

Nigel
Message no. 26
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:42:47 -0500
Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> said:
>
> Okay, I know that there are some people who are fundamentally opposed to
> magicians having any cyberware. Then there are those (like myself) who
> don't see a problem with it, especially if it's in character.
>
> I'm not going to argue about that though; it's been done to death.
>
> What I am curious about is which magician the list thinks is more effective.

It depends on a lot of things. As you've said, a mage with cyber can do
normal combat things better than a non-cyber mage. However, a cyber mage
has a lower Magic Rating. You have to weigh the increased combat
effectiveness against the reduced magic effectiveness. As others have
said, it often depends on the campaign. If the mage needs to be very
combat effective (gritty game where everyone has a gun and uses it often),
then clearly the cyber mage is better. If the mage is specifically around
for magical support, then the non-cyber mage is better.

Let's look at what Magic Rating affects. It determines the max force of
spells that can be cast with Stun drain. If your mage rarely takes much
drain (due to low force or low drain level spells, high willpower, etc.),
then this isn't as important. MR affects the base area of effect of
various spells. I often find that spells have too large of an area
effect, and waste dice cutting down the area. MR limits the number of
dice from the Magic Pool that can be used for the spell success test.
If your magic pool is lower than your MR, this isn't a limit. Finally,
MR is used for calculating various target numbers (piercing Masking,
making Orichalcum, etc). A high MR is nice for some things, but there's
very little difference in certain ranges (6-9).

What does this all mean? Cyber is ideal for Initiated mages. A level 1
Initiate probably gets his MR increased from 6 to 7. He probably doesn't
have any Force 7 spells, so it won't help him get away from physical
drain. If his Magic Pool is 6, he will rarely get to use his full MR to
increase dice on spell success tests (like when using elementals for Aid
Sorcery). He will be able to make Orichalcum better (target is 10-MR, so
it goes from 4 to 3), but that doesn't matter for non-enchanters. He will
be able to Mask and pierce Masking better, but only by 1 dice. There's no
difference in the TN of 6 versus 7.

All this points to cyber or bioware for Initiated mages. The reduction in
MR doesn't really hurt them much, and a smartgun and cyber-eye enhancements
can really help in combat (depending on the world and other things).
Unfortunately, Initiated mages are usually the LEAST likely to get such
mods, given their usual personality.

Personally, my mage would never consider cyber or bioware. He's an Albino
(from before the Companion made them fashionable) who started with very
low physical stats. He believes that Magic can do almost anything, and
learned spells to make up for his physical failings. A little cyber
could help him in combat, but so could a few (more) quickened spells.

One last consideration... It takes money to get cyberware, but it takes
karma to learn and quicken/lock spells. In a money-rich game, cyber
(especially alpha or beta) the the faster route to combat monsterhood.
In a karma-rich game, magic is the way to go.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 27
From: Drakkath X <DrakkathX@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:54:44 EST
Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> said:
>
> Okay, I know that there are some people who are fundamentally opposed to
> magicians having any cyberware. Then there are those (like myself) who
> don't see a problem with it, especially if it's in character.
>
> I'm not going to argue about that though; it's been done to death.
>
> What I am curious about is which magician the list thinks is more
effective.Im not


sure what every one else likes, but

My personal favorite is a dwarven mage will 7::: tricked out with a
paineditor

I like them because they cast spells with nearly no negative effects.
Of course i like to explain the pain editor as a genetic realated event, not a
piece of bioware.
Message no. 28
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:16:03 +0100
And verily, did Mikey F. Jr. hastily scribble thusly...
|> "The Great space coaster..come on board! Lets fly out together..."
|
|"The Great Space Coster..... Off we go!"

All I can say is....

WTF?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 29
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 14:52:13 -0800
----------
> From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
> Date: Saturday, April 04, 1998 2:16 PM
>
> And verily, did Mikey F. Jr. hastily scribble thusly...
> |> "The Great space coaster..come on board! Lets fly out together..."
> |
> |"The Great Space Coster..... Off we go!"
>
> All I can say is....
>
> WTF?
>

Now *I* feel old. I at least got the reference even if I can't remember
anything besides Gary Gnu. =(
Message no. 30
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 00:13:03 +0100
And verily, did Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman hastily scribble thusly...
|> |"The Great Space Coster..... Off we go!"
|>
|> All I can say is....
|>
|> WTF?
|>
|
|Now *I* feel old. I at least got the reference even if I can't remember
|anything besides Gary Gnu. =(

I think the odds are that I'm older than you.
Remember the classics that were "Mary, Mongo and Midge" or "Camberwick
Green"?

No?

The answer is because they probably never made it to america, and I have a
sneaking suspicion that this space coaster thing never made it over here....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 31
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 00:04:03 -0500
Once upon a time, Mikey F. Jr. wrote;

>On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Chris Lubrecht wrote:
>
>> At 05:37 PM 4/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> >The SwiftOne spun this tale:
>> >
>>
>> >"No Gnu's is good Gnu's"
>> >
>> >-The Great Space Coaster (I think :)
>>
>>
>> Damn I'm old...
>>
>Dont say THAT! My Birthday is next Tuesday andI remember watching Baxter!
>And I'm only going to be 20!!!!!
>>
>> "The Great space coaster..come on board! Lets fly out together..."
>
>"The Great Space Coster..... Off we go!"

Damn, I barely remember that and I hit 29 this May.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 32
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 23:14:56 -0400
Erik Jameson writes:
>On the one hand, the cybered combat mage (who usually has at least
>cybereyes and a Smartgun link 2 and often has boosted reflexes or some sort
>of headware like an encephalon) doesn't have to rely on his magic as much;
>instead of casting a spell everytime, the combat mage can use a gun and
>have a good chance of hitting something. And low-light and thermo are a
>definite plus.

Mages get a lot of edge for the essence from damage compensators,
especially at low-levels. Being able to ignore penalties from minor drain
goes a really long way.

Wordman
Message no. 33
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 20:26:58 -0700
> Erik Jameson writes:
> >On the one hand, the cybered combat mage (who usually has at least
> >cybereyes and a Smartgun link 2 and often has boosted reflexes or some
sort
> >of headware like an encephalon) doesn't have to rely on his magic as
much;
> >instead of casting a spell everytime, the combat mage can use a gun and
> >have a good chance of hitting something. And low-light and thermo are a
> >definite plus.

wordman countered with:

> Mages get a lot of edge for the essence from damage compensators,
> especially at low-levels. Being able to ignore penalties from minor drain
> goes a really long way.

For my cyber enhanced mage dollar a pain editor is the way to go, not only
does it add one to your willpower, it makes it impossible to go unconscious
from drain (unless you kill yourself that is).

Caric
Message no. 34
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 00:54:31 EDT
In a message dated 4/5/98 10:15:41 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
wordman@*******.COM writes:

> Mages get a lot of edge for the essence from damage compensators,
> especially at low-levels. Being able to ignore penalties from minor drain
> goes a really long way.
>
I think that is why we put other limitations into things like this. Had a big
thing about a magician needing to be in touch with him/herself in a more
complete sense, even if it is a subconscious one, hence, Damage Compensators
and Pain Editor threw the magician more out of whack than normal. Modifiers
to performing active magic beyond assensing were upped (as high as the level
in DC case, +2 to +4 for PE).

But that was just us.
-K
Message no. 35
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 01:14:49 -0400
Caric wrote:

> Wordman countered with:
>> Mages get a lot of edge for the essence from damage compensators,
>> especially at low-levels. Being able to ignore penalties from minor drain
>> goes a really long way.

> For my cyber enhanced mage dollar a pain editor is the way to go, not only
> does it add one to your willpower, it makes it impossible to go unconscious
> from drain (unless you kill yourself that is).

I suppose, but those things scare me. I have never played a character crazy
enough to even want one, much less install one, and I've "retired" at least
one character by having them go toxic.

Wordman
Message no. 36
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 22:12:29 -0700
> > Mages get a lot of edge for the essence from damage compensators,
> > especially at low-levels. Being able to ignore penalties from minor
drain
> > goes a really long way.
> >
> I think that is why we put other limitations into things like this. Had
a big
> thing about a magician needing to be in touch with him/herself in a more
> complete sense, even if it is a subconscious one, hence, Damage
Compensators
> and Pain Editor threw the magician more out of whack than normal.
Modifiers
> to performing active magic beyond assensing were upped (as high as the
level
> in DC case, +2 to +4 for PE).

Not a bad idea IMHO, I think that magic in any campaign needs to be
examined...that's why we have altered the way spells and drain function in
order to blend more with what we feel is the way magic in the sixth world
is supposed to work...granted this is just our opinion, but it works well
for our campaign. I did enjoy my pain editor though :) Loki always did
enforce the simple rule however that with damage compensators and pain
editors you have no idea how wounded you are beyond the fact that you are
bleeding, so it's easy to hurt yourself badly because you were ignorant.


Caric
Message no. 37
From: legion <legion@*****.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Magicians and cyber
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:29:07 +1000
<<<<<Snip>>>>
> The mage that spends 2 points of essence is walking a fine line.
> Most of his spells will be cast at force 4 or less untill he
> initiates. At this point he's down 2 dice from his magic pool and
> limited in his spell casting. After a couple of levels of initiation
> the one with the cyberware has the edge, IMO, assuming that the mage
> made good decisions and purchased cyberware compatable with his
> combat style.
>
> Spending 3 points of essence, or more, is counterproductive IMHO.
> Even after initiating the cybered mage will have 3 less magic pool
> dice then the pure mage, and that's a lot.



Personally, my PC at the moment is Lupus, the Wolf Shaman. He started of
with Magic Att of 3

had a VCR 1, cybereyes, smartlink, and commlink. As a rigger/Mage, he was
not often in the front-line of combat, but when he is, he uses his brain
more . A PC who thinks, is much more dangerous than just Cyberware or
Magic stats will show

Mik

Further Reading

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