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Message no. 1
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Magicians and Karma
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:21:09 -0600
This is going to sound weird, but you know how you pay free spirits in Karma?
Could a mage also accept payments in Karma, using the Conjuring trick to
improve others ratios, and boosting his own karma a bit, just like a free
spirit?


***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
************
Only after the last tree has been cut down, Only after the last river has been
poisoned, Only after the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find
that money cannot be eaten.
- Cree Indian Prophecy
***********
Am Moireach Mor!
Message no. 2
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and Karma
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:35:37 -0500
At 10:21 AM 3/31/98 -0600, NEXX wrote:
> This is going to sound weird, but you know how you pay free
spirits in Karma?
>Could a mage also accept payments in Karma, using the Conjuring trick to
>improve others ratios, and boosting his own karma a bit, just like a free
>spirit?

That would assume that you could Conjure people. Which you can't.

As I understand it, that particular trick is a combination of giving
something of yourself (which, I suppose, could be done from person to
person) and the Conjuring ritual. The ritual, I would imagine, connects
the spirit to the person giving the karma.

I suppose it is theoretically possible to do what you are suggesting, but
it would be only loosely based on the person to spirit karma transfer. I
would think that it would be extremely difficult to come with it, in game,
since you are dealing with people, which are a lot more complex souls that
spirits. While thaumaturgic science probably knows a lot about spirits,
the human soul/spirit/energy/whatever is still a huge mystery. Until that
mystery is unlocked, I don't see how you could transfer karma from one
person to another.

Not to mention the fact that this sort of karmic transfer is potentially
extremely unbalancing for the game.

*IF* you really want to do something like this, simply let your players use
karma on each other for successes. Don't let Bob spend Karma on Jill to
raise Jill's Firearms Skill, but let Bob spend Karma to buy successes or
rerolls or to avoid an oops for Jill for the usage of that Firearms Skill.

Nearly every group I've been in has done this sort of "karmic transfer" at
one point or another, usually in the final climactic scene to help power
that spell/bullet/sword slash that will kill the big baddy. And whoever is
GMing usually, but not always, is willing to give those karma points back
when karma is awarded because it helps to foster the "team" concept.

Anyway, cold-drug induced ramblings...take them as you will.

Erik J.

No .sig today. .Sig tomorrow. Always a .sig tomorrow.
Message no. 3
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magicians and Karma
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:02:06 -0500
On Tue, Mar 31, 1998 at 10:21:09AM -0600, Nexx wrote:
> This is going to sound weird, but you know how you pay free spirits in Karma?
> Could a mage also accept payments in Karma, using the Conjuring trick to
> improve others ratios, and boosting his own karma a bit, just like a free
> spirit?
>
>
At first glance I'd say absolutely not. The karma thing is tied
into the Spirit energy the free spirit has. This is all IMHO
of course, it just seems like it would imbalance things or be out
of spirit. (Although this might work for the evil NPC blood mage).
I'll think some more on it. None of my players have ever inquired
about it before.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 4
From: "J.G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magicians and Karma
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:36:22 +0200
At 12:35 31/03/1998 -0500, you wrote:
<<SNIPPA!>>
>That would assume that you could Conjure people. Which you can't.
>As I understand it, that particular trick is a combination of giving
>something of yourself (which, I suppose, could be done from person to
>person) and the Conjuring ritual. The ritual, I would imagine, connects
>the spirit to the person giving the karma.
>
>I suppose it is theoretically possible to do what you are suggesting, but
>it would be only loosely based on the person to spirit karma transfer. I
>would think that it would be extremely difficult to come with it, in game,
>since you are dealing with people, which are a lot more complex souls that
>spirits. While thaumaturgic science probably knows a lot about spirits,
>the human soul/spirit/energy/whatever is still a huge mystery. Until that
>mystery is unlocked, I don't see how you could transfer karma from one
>person to another.
****
Hmm, replying to your post again this evenin'.. ;)
Well, being the nice and gentle GM that I am -uhum-, I would give players
who wish to 'give' their 'life force' to others a chance at developing a
technique for this. Maybe in a spell, maybe in an advanced form of
conjuring, in either way it would cost a _lot_ of rescources/time... and, if
they would have done it, I would make the transfer at a 5:1 ratio...

Just my .02

Jod
chatin@*******.nl
http://www.euronet.nl/users/chatin/index.htm
IDM
Vita Brevis
Message no. 5
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and Karma
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:49:20 EST
In a message dated 98-03-31 13:32:55 EST, you write:

> > This is going to sound weird, but you know how you pay free
spirits
> in Karma?
> > Could a mage also accept payments in Karma, using the Conjuring trick to
> > improve others ratios, and boosting his own karma a bit, just like a free
> > spirit?
> >
> >
> At first glance I'd say absolutely not. The karma thing is tied
> into the Spirit energy the free spirit has. This is all IMHO
> of course, it just seems like it would imbalance things or be out
> of spirit. (Although this might work for the evil NPC blood mage).
> I'll think some more on it. None of my players have ever inquired
> about it before.

Guys, this is a dangerous avenue, and it all got started by one player asking
the question, "Can I get karma back from a spirit after it has been doubled ?"
Luckily the player never asked ever again.

Later on it was used and it did shatter, no, SHATTERED, the game group at the
time and has caused bad blood between many of the players that has lasted for
years, as the players who had no concept of game balance began to abuse the
hell out of what was eventually done (and to the scales it was going to).

This is something any gm should control with an iron fist and not give in to
the players at all.

This is coming from experience and someone who has been scarred by what
happened as a result of it. And at the time I was co-gm along with Keith.

Beware this question and its potentials, think hard and well, please.

Mike (on knees in a begging stance)
Message no. 6
From: Jonathan Andrews <jmandrews@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magicians and Karma
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:58:58 -0500
Well, ju know, I would say that sure, why not let people steal other
people's karma?

On the other hand, you never know what that karma's going to do to you...

Consider this: karma is the experience, the life energy, the whatever
pseudoreligious game-mechanic-enhancer crap ypou want to call it, that
moves characters forward in the world. You can't just traffick it, or you
would find karma-launderers all over the place. When you take someone
else's potential, if you will, maybe things start happening to you...
Besides, that seems like a cool redemption schema... I feel a run idea
coming on...
Message no. 7
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magicians and Karma
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:12:11 -7100
And verily, did Jonathan Andrews hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Well, ju know, I would say that sure, why not let people steal other
|people's karma?
|
|On the other hand, you never know what that karma's going to do to you...
|
|Consider this: karma is the experience, the life energy, the whatever
|pseudoreligious game-mechanic-enhancer crap ypou want to call it, that
|moves characters forward in the world. You can't just traffick it, or you
|would find karma-launderers all over the place. When you take someone
|else's potential, if you will, maybe things start happening to you...
|Besides, that seems like a cool redemption schema... I feel a run idea
|coming on...
|

And if you look at Earthdawn, you'll find various horror and dragon powers
that relate to Karma. (Negate Karma, Corrupt Karma, Steal Karma)...

Personally, I like the Corrupt karma idea myself....
:)
<EGMG>
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magicians and Karma
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:50:41 +0100
Nexx said on 10:21/31 Mar 98...

> This is going to sound weird, but you know how you pay free
> spirits in Karma?

I have no idea... All the Grimoire talks about is the game mechanics,
without saying how this would/could/should be represented in the
roleplaying side of things.

> Could a mage also accept payments in Karma, using the Conjuring trick to
> improve others ratios, and boosting his own karma a bit, just like a
> free spirit?

IMHO, no. This would allow players to much too easily trade Karma and
nuyen between them to give all characters what they need -- think about
it: the shaman has 100,000Y around that he doesn't do anything with. At
the same time, the decker needs that kind of money to buy a new deck
component, and has more Karma than she knows what to do with... Allow them
to swap Karma and both will gain a lot for very little effort.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Circumvent yourself.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 9
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magicians and Karma
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:19:55 +0000
> Guys, this is a dangerous avenue, and it all got started by one player asking
> the question, "Can I get karma back from a spirit after it has been doubled
?"
> Luckily the player never asked ever again.
...
> This is something any gm should control with an iron fist and not give in to
> the players at all.

I agree completely. Way back in first edition, while I was still a
naive GM, I allowed players to transfer Karma. Next thing I knew,
the Mages in the group would rake in 5 Karma from another player,
spend one to quicken Inc Ref +3 to them, and keep the other 4. I
had freaking Grade 8 mages within a few months!!! [And it's normally
rare for me to have any players that reach Grade 2]

Needless to say, I reversed my decision with 2nd edition, and I've
been a much happier person since.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 10
From: Caric <caric@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and Karma
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:37:39 -0800
> ---Gurth <gurth@******.NL> wrote:
> >
> > Nexx said on 10:21/31 Mar 98...
>
> > > This is going to sound weird, but you know how you pay
free
> > > spirits in Karma?
> >
> > I have no idea... All the Grimoire talks about is the game
mechanics,
> > without saying how this would/could/should be represented in the
> > roleplaying side of things.
> >
> > > Could a mage also accept payments in Karma, using the Conjuring
> trick to
> > > improve others ratios, and boosting his own karma a bit, just
like a
> > > free spirit?
> >
> > IMHO, no. This would allow players to much too easily trade Karma
and
> > nuyen between them to give all characters what they need -- think
> about
> > it: the shaman has 100,000Y around that he doesn't do anything with.
> At
> > the same time, the decker needs that kind of money to buy a new deck
> > component, and has more Karma than she knows what to do with...
> Allow them
> > to swap Karma and both will gain a lot for very little effort.
>
> Not only that, but I have always felt the Karma is something
> intangible to the characters...it merely represents experience and
> natural developement as well as being something IMHO very personal to
> that character...to me giving up karma to a spirit should be akin to
> giving up just a little bit of your soul/being/whatever you want to
> call it, and in no way should this be a "fun" experience. Karma to me
> just is a game mechanic used to discribe all the hard work and
> experience that characters put in to make up who they are.
>
>
> Caric
>
> "oot and aboot and no place to go"
>
> -Me just now :)

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Message no. 11
From: Jacob Engstrom <sabredanz@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Magicians and Karma
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:04:00 EST
Why go through all that hassle?
Get a team Karma pool together.


Jacob Engstrom

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