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Message no. 1
From: Blackwell Godslayer <GT2150@*******>
Subject: Magic in the Matrix.
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 92 09:37:58 CST
Try the Virtual Realities source book, I belive it explains that
magic just will not work in the Matrix because the matrix is a conceptulized
reality not a physical one.

KA'GE
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Message no. 2
From: Crisper Than Thou <crisper@*******.ARMORY.COM>
Subject: Magic in the Matrix
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 92 07:54:47 PDT
This is a lot like the "can a chromed sammy turn mage-boy given time?" and
I would say the answer is similar: NO. And I can give you two reasons, one
game-mechanics related and one "campaign mumbo-jumbo real world stuff".

1) The complex interactions of spells and programs would be obscenely complex.
Also, it would be too imbalancing and would allow mages/shamans who
don't know shit about computers to still be kick-butt deckers, which
is BAD. You wanna be good in the Matrix, you gotta be a programmer,
a user, a chipped-out hardware/software junkie. If a decker can't use
Astral Space to effect, why should a spellcaster get to use the Matrix
as another home?

2) The "real world" angle, which is the one I personally stand on:

Premise One: That the Matrix is basically an hallucinatory experience. None of
it is actually there; it is simulated sensory experience. You don't actually
GO anywhere when you run around. It is not an actual place. None of its
contents actually exist. This is right out of the rules.

Premise Two: Magic is the act of channeling Astral energies into or through
an object, grounding it in the Astral Plane so to speak. It requires that
you can see the target, yes, but the implication is that there has to be
an object *actually there*.

So, if magic requires a tangible target and the Matrix is composed entirely
of non-tangible, unreal targets, there is no common ground. Programs, LANs,
dial-ins, nodes, etc. DON'T have an Astral signature, so they AREN'T Astral
targets.

And if that's not good enough for you, I just thought of a third rationale:

3) Rules say you can't cast spells at targets through a TV or other remote-
viewing device, I seem to recall. So what's VR and the Matrix, if not a
full-sensory TV? If you can't cast spells at Joe Friday on late-night
reruns of Dragnet, why should you be able to cast spells at someone's
Barrier program halfway across the country?

--The Elder Dan
"Tank you Easter Bunny. BOK! BOK!"
Message no. 3
From: ROBERSON@***.EDU
Subject: Magic in the Matrix
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 93 21:27:31 CET
As I understand it, Brightlight and his GM hypothesize that Astral
Space, rather than being a plane of existence that exists in its own right,
was formed by the belief in its existence over time. That is to say, enough
people believed it was there so it existed. They are applying the same
rationale behind the Matrix: that because enough people believe the perceived
space is real, it actually exists.
That theory is certainly acceptable, and as Brightlight says is the
working model that he and his GM came up with. As long as everyone in that
particular campaign go along, there's no problem. Hower
(DAMN!) However, it won't happen in any campaign I run. Game Balance
aside, there is a good reason for the Matrix not to exist as an actual space
that fits with your hypothesis. You stipulate that Astral Space was formed
over time as various cultures postulated a belief in the afterlife, and
that Astral Space is a amalgamation of these beliefs. Humanity has existed
for some 30-35,000 years. Civilization can be traced back as far as 4,000
years. Consider that it took most of that time for enough people to live,
believe and die to form Astral Space. Astral Space can be thousands of years
old and still have taken two doze millenia to form.
The Matrix, as defined in Shadorun, has only existed for 20-25
years. You could stretch things by saying that the phone lines that were
precursors to it have been around since the late 19th century. That's still
just 180 years at most, Hardly enough time for a Virtual Reality to become
a true reality.

J Roberson
The Theoretical is so much easier to deal with than the Real.
Message no. 4
From: Christina Nichols <nicholch@***.msu.edu>
Subject: RE: magic in the matrix
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 14:28:00 PST
As far as it goes - I wasn't advocating a very strong presence of magic
in the matrix - I wouldn't think magical increased reflexes would work
any better in the matrix (or rather on your matrix icon) than they do in
astral. Also, my husband stated (after his "not in my game" bit) that if
you were going to allow magic at all, that no mana spells would work nor
LOS.
In fact thinking about it, I would think only spells that were designed
to affect objects would work in the matrix (assuming you allow them at
all and all that... <grin>) So analyze spells might work and perhaps a
few others, but most simply wouldn't.

Another 2 pence for you.

Chris (nicholch@***.msu.edu)
"I am sorry to say that this discussion does not surprise me. My Circle
has discussed many times where the boundaries lie between what Man should
and should not touch. That this further corruption of magic might occur
reminds me only of the sadness I see in the land..."
--- Red, druidic conjuring adept
Message no. 5
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Magic in the Matrix
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 12:35:26 +0200 (EET)
On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, Alex van der Kleut wrote:

> raised in the Matrix. "Bicosmic" was his term. That means that they have
> TWO realities, each as valid as the other. Maybe to them the Matrix is
> the real world and our world in imagined. What I'm saying is that if they
> don't just believe that the Matrix is real, but by their definition of
> their life it is real, then they could effect it with magic.

Even when they view the Matrix as their world and real, the Matrix does
not have Mana - there fore no magic. The magic has to come from the
outside in this case - from the physical world -- and I must agree with
many others that you can't affect Matrix with magic.

---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
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Message no. 6
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Magic in the Matrix
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 13:38:27 +0000 (GMT)
|Even when they view the Matrix as their world and real, the Matrix does
|not have Mana - there fore no magic. The magic has to come from the
|outside in this case - from the physical world -- and I must agree with
|many others that you can't affect Matrix with magic.

Just wait a few hundred years until the matrix has gained a "history" and
the Mana levels are so much higher.

Then LOS might not be quite so important and the matrix might have "gained"
some mana of it's own........

(As I said before, it's not going to matter in any normal shadowrun game. If
it was set in the future, it might though...)
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