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From:	Dave The Shade <IZZYUX2@*******.BITNET>
Subject:	magick
Date:	Sat, 15 May 1993 11:31:00 PDT

Message no. 1 I would like to ask people out there what they think of the mages "lifestyle"
in terms of aquiring foci, artifacts, and spells. I really dislike the fact
that mages have to burn outrageous amount of Karma just to do or get anything.
Instead, in my world spells are extremely tightly controlled as is magical rese
arch. Usually major University magic depts. have a special computer devoted to
magic spells, lab work, modeling programs, and discussions. Acess is strictly
controlled and partitioned. Undergrads only get acess to spells up to M drain.
Grads S and later some D drain spells. Things like Hellblast and other nasty
stuff is for profs - or by special permission. Discussions, lab work, and model
ing/simulation programs are similarly controlled and partioned. So in my game
the mage actively seeks to get access into (and then higher levels of) MagCom
time. This creates raw material for adventures and acts as a bonus mechanism.
This way I can controll and dispense magic and avoid alot of the hassle in the
book. The foci & artifacts in my game are similarly dispensed, either as
"spoils" recovered from a 'run or given/bought/found by the mage. I control the
level and power of these things so I don't make the mage burn mucho karma gett
ing the stuff. Same thing for initiation. So whadda you guys think. --- Oh, by
the way. the name or unit of measure of magic in my game is Tolkiens (just like
volts or amps or watts measure electricity)

KHANx

From:	"Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: magick
Date:	Sat, 15 May 1993 12:32:13 -0700

Message no. 2 >>I would like to ask people out there what they think of the mages
"lifestyle"
>>in terms of aquiring foci, artifacts, and spells. I really dislike the fact
>>that mages have to burn outrageous amount of Karma just to do or get anything.

Considering the cost of most magic items (cash and karma) along with the
disadvantages, there isn't that much of a problem. Especially when you remember
that everyone else ends up pouring tons of karma into their skills.

>>Instead, in my world spells are extremely tightly controlled as is magical
>>research. Usually major University magic depts. have a special computer
>>devoted to magic spells, lab work, modeling programs, and discussions. Acess
>>is strictly controlled and partitioned. Undergrads only get acess to spells
>>up to M drain. Grads S and later some D drain spells. Things like Hellblast
>>and other nasty stuff is for profs - or by special permission. Discussions,
>>lab work, and modeling/simulation programs are similarly controlled and
>>partioned.

That's all fine and dandy for people who study magic in school, but most
shadowrunners learn their spells directly from other magicians. Who cares if
only graduates can get S drain spells from the computer, I'll just learn it for
Sal the Mage. Besides, I'd just convince the party decker to bust into the
system and grab all the spell formulas he could get his hands on.

>>So in my game the mage actively seeks to get access into (and then higher
>>levels of) MagCom time. This creates raw material for adventures and acts as
>>a bonus mechanism. This way I can controll and dispense magic and avoid alot
>>of the hassle in the book. The foci & artifacts in my game are similarly
>>dispensed, either as "spoils" recovered from a 'run or
given/bought/found by
>>the mage. I control the level and power of these things so I don't make the
>>mage burn mucho karma getting the stuff. Same thing for initiation. So whadda
>>you guys think.

Making foci less common would just require the GM making them less available or
more expensive. "So what if you have 350,000 Nuyen, the enchanter only has a
power focus 3 available and he wants 400,000 Nuyen for it. Now if you want a
power focus 2 he can build one, but it will take a month and cost 300,000
Nuyen." Still, foci and initiation should still cost karma, but if you think
they cost too much, reduce the cost.

>>--- Oh, by the way. the name or unit of measure of magic in my game is
>>Tolkiens (just like volts or amps or watts measure electricity)

Sounds too scientific for magic. I hear shamans laughing in the distance.

See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker

From:	Matthew Ledgerwood <ledgermw@****.CANTERBURY.AC.NZ>
Subject:	Re: magick
Date:	Wed, 19 May 1993 00:17:53 NZS

Message no. 3 Hmmmmm...

Tolkiens as a unit of measurement for magic?

I have my doubts if this is likely. I remember reading in "Into the Shadows",
book #7 (I think) that Tolkien wasd unpopular amongst Orcs and Trolls 'cause
of the fact that people put off them buy trolls and orcs in his books.

Cheers,
Matthew.

From:	Deathlord <MLOZANO@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject:	Magick!!!
Date:	Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:39:25 EST

Message no. 4 just a little something for the old and bedragled!

I am here.
I have seen.
I will return!
I am the way of the past.
I have danced the dance of a thousand dances.
For I walk the spirit path!
I AM THE SHAMAN!!!

hey guys just thought I'd give a funky intro. If anyone cares to
discuss magick in theory and in real life, well I'm proof that it is real.
write me if you care to discuss, and I also agree that it should be
taken to a new board specifically for the talk of magick!, but hey
Shadowrun deals with Shamans and the like so I guess it's leagal
here too, but for exclusive talk, it should be on a magick board!
see ya all latter, Shadowdancer sent me I'm the Native American.
"I walk the land dancing the dance of a thousand
spirits, and watch the world through an Eagles eyes.
Let the great spirit guide us all to the path of light,
and let all follow spirits' dance."
Deathlord

From:	Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject:	Magick
Date:	Thu, 13 Oct 1994 16:54:37 EST

Message no. 5 Seems that this topic is causing quite a stir. But I say, if you don't
want to read this stuff, don't!! Just erase it. And, all things aside, if it
wasn't discussed, a lot of people who are wondering will stay in the
dark. Now religious discussions can be taken off board, but thats
hard because all magick has a religious basis, and quite a few
religions have magick as a church sactioned activity. But just like I
tell people who want to censor EVERYTHING, if you don't want it, clam
up and change the channel. Whether people like it or not, SR was
based on technology AND magick. Can't discuss SR without hitting
both. And some things get technical. Fine. It adds flavor and
atmosphere. Plus many people like to know WHY something works,
rather than just that it works. And if you don't understand something,
LOOK IT UP. That's what libraries and professors are for. The
discussion of magick helps us play better games. It also helps us in
day to day life. Did you know that the Mayans actually predicted the
Sixth World? And that world may be here soon, as the Mayan
calender stopped at the year 2000? And ther is a guy(don't remember
his name), who is predicting the same thing? (By-the-by, for those
who know what I am talking about, he is predicting both the rise of
psychic/magickal powers and the rise of FIVE different races.) If the
thought that mana is rising and magick will be back to full power in
seven years dosen't scare you, then you are either perpetually drunk,
or you've been at college to long(after college, no one's afraid of
nothin'<grin>.

Now that I'm off my soapbox, I have a question. It says in the black
book that elementals stay with the mage until they use all favors, and
the mage can command as many as his intelligence(I think). What
about shamans? I know that the spirits will leave at sunrise and
sunset, but what if the spirit is on stand-by? And can a shaman have
many spirits or just one? About crossing boundries, can a shaman
conjure a hearth spirit, put it on stand-by, walk through the woods, sit
in a cafe for an hour, fly through a storm, and call the spirit when he
gets back to the hearth? (Same questions applies to druids.)

Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever gods they worship will smile upon them.
I waltz through shadows with my gods, and I lead!

-SHADOWDANCER-

From:	Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject:	Re: Magick
Date:	Fri, 14 Oct 1994 12:42:59 +1000

Message no. 6 Shadowdancer asks:

> It says in the black book that elementals stay with the
> mage until they use all favors, and the mage can command as
> many as his intelligence(I think). What about shamans? I
> know that the spirits will leave at sunrise and sunset,
> but what if the spirit is on stand-by? And can a shaman have
> many spirits or just one? About crossing boundries, can a
> shaman conjure a hearth spirit, put it on stand-by, walk
> through the woods, sit in a cafe for an hour, fly through a
> storm, and call the spirit when he gets back to the hearth?

> (Same questions applies to druids.)

We play that a shaman can have as many around as his Charisma,
but that's a house rule, I think. Don't forget the exclusion
principle - you can only have one spirit from a domain at any
one time. So you could have a city spirit and a street spirit,
but not two city spirits, for example.

I have a strong feeling that the standard SR rules limit a
shaman to one spirit only. Certainly, our house rules give
shamans a hefty advantage over normal mages (free summoning,
_fast_ summoning). Which makes them pretty powerful. I'm not
sure I'd recommend you'd change things from the standard rules,
if the one-spirit rule is really there.

I think you can leave them on stand-by, and come back to them,
with the above restrictions (including the day/night one, that
you've mentioned).

luke

From:	MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Magick
Date:	Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:44:20 +1000

Message no. 7 SHADOWDANCER writes:

{Big Rant on why we should have a magic discussion on the list]

Good rant, I agree whith what you said.

> Now that I'm off my soapbox, I have a question. It says in the black
> book that elementals stay with the mage until they use all favors, and
> the mage can command as many as his intelligence(I think). What
> about shamans? I know that the spirits will leave at sunrise and
> sunset, but what if the spirit is on stand-by? And can a shaman have
> many spirits or just one? About crossing boundries, can a shaman
> conjure a hearth spirit, put it on stand-by, walk through the woods, sit
> in a cafe for an hour, fly through a storm, and call the spirit when he
> gets back to the hearth? (Same questions applies to druids.)

My recollection is that you can only have a single spirit in each domain at
a single time. As for the numbers of spirits total, I would say that you
could have up to your IQ same as mages, but no two can come from the same
domain. A question arises as to domain now. By limiting the number of
spirits to one per domain, does this mean that I can only have one hearth
spirit at any one time? Even if I summon one in Seattle at 8:00 in the morning,
jump the suborbital to Atlanta, and try to summon a new one? It is still the
same domain, but it is different patch of turf. What would you say?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+

From:	Michael D Ruane <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Magick
Date:	Thu, 13 Oct 1994 23:20:26 -0700

Message no. 8 On Fri, 14 Oct 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> > Now that I'm off my soapbox, I have a question. It says in the black
> > book that elementals stay with the mage until they use all favors, and
> > the mage can command as many as his intelligence(I think). What
> > about shamans? I know that the spirits will leave at sunrise and
> > sunset, but what if the spirit is on stand-by? And can a shaman have
> > many spirits or just one? About crossing boundries, can a shaman
> > conjure a hearth spirit, put it on stand-by, walk through the woods, sit
> > in a cafe for an hour, fly through a storm, and call the spirit when he
> > gets back to the hearth? (Same questions applies to druids.)
>
> My recollection is that you can only have a single spirit in each domain at
> a single time. As for the numbers of spirits total, I would say that you
> could have up to your IQ same as mages, but no two can come from the same
> domain. A question arises as to domain now. By limiting the number of
> spirits to one per domain, does this mean that I can only have one hearth
> spirit at any one time? Even if I summon one in Seattle at 8:00 in the morning,
> jump the suborbital to Atlanta, and try to summon a new one? It is still the
> same domain, but it is different patch of turf. What would you say?

I would say that the hearth spirit would have to travel to your
location. big problem: crossing other domains. You would have to dispel
the hearth spirit and get a new one. IMHO, I think that Shaman got a
little shaft with the spirit conection. Spirits are limited by location,
time, and number compared to elementals. Granted elementals are a few
hours longer to summon, they stick around indefinately (sp?) and have
oodles of services, which can come in many forms. Just my gripe,

Mike aka Spellslinger

From:	MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Magick
Date:	Fri, 14 Oct 1994 18:42:35 +1000

Message no. 9 Mike writes:

> I would say that the hearth spirit would have to travel to your
> location. big problem: crossing other domains.

Yeah, this sounds sound :-)

> You would have to dispel the hearth spirit and get a new one.

Thats OK, you just dismiss/free/release it.

> IMHO, I think that Shaman got a little shaft with the spirit conection.

Hunh?

> Spirits are limited by location, time, and number compared to elementals.
> Granted elementals are a few hours longer to summon, they stick around
> indefinately (sp?) and have oodles of services, which can come in many
> forms.

Well, I've not had too much experience with nature spirits (none of my
players play shamans, so only the NPC shamans ever get to summon them), but
they seem pretty effective to me. I'm sure others on here will vouch for
their usefulness. But, like the old Street Sammie vs Phys Adept argument, I
don't think there is a clear winner.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+

From:	"James W. Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: magicK
Date:	Wed, 7 Dec 1994 11:54:42 +0000

Message no. 10 This is a big post.
Sorry, but this had to be said

> Wrong. Period. The end.
<CHOP>Nice to know that reasoned debate lives on
>
> On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:
>
> > Marc,
> > I hate to burst your bubble, but did you not know that nature is magick?
> > Life in and of itself is Magick, Magick is in ALL things. Well, I happen
to
> > another form of Magick (Hence the term Techno-wizard.), same with Chemical
> > Reactions (I Majored in this for two and a half years.), same with
> > reproduction, etc., etc. So with this perspective in mind that is how I can
>
> Well, your definition-set of the adjective "Magic[k]al" is so
> large as to render it devoid of meaning. But in particular, chemical
> reactions are a result of electromagnetic interactions mediated by
> photons occuring within the upper valence bands of the elements in
> question. The corresponding shifts in energy, spin, and momentum alter
> the properties of the reactants in a variety of theoretically predictable
> ways.
<CHOP>So they're controlled by things so small we can't see
them, but we can see what they do and so must believe in them?
Sounds like magic to me.
Almost all modern science (i'm in my 3rd yr of Chemistry)is a
religion. They say something is happening,and ask you to believe
in it . Ever seen an electron? felt a spin factor alter?
=)
> I think more people would agree with this definition-set of
> "Chemical Reactions".
<CHOP> Nah, his ways more fun
> On the other hand, you are free to reject the empirical viewpoint
> of the universe and define your own standards. But I don't think many
> people will be able to converse intelligibly with you. And the point of
> language is communication, after all.
<CHOP> His piont is that all of the Earth is in some way
magical, and so all things, as they are part of the Earth at
some time, are MAgicKal

> > state "The Fountain of Youth is Magickal." and be truthful about it.
Truth
> > and Reality are a matter of perspective. Fact is only certain truths and
> > realities that are agreed upon by all as having happened.
>
> The empiracal viewpoint of most scientists and engineers would
> disagree with this. And they seem to have a lot more confirmation than
>the non-empiracal viewpoint, although at a certain level of rationalism
> this may be irrelevent. Still, the act of observation seems to find
> things obeying certain universal principles.

<CHOP>Most scientists are blinkered and blind.they see what they
can understand, nothing more.
When the Spanish ships sailed to South America, the natives saw
them coming, but they had never seen a sailing ship, and so they
discounted the sails on the horizon as freak weather cnditions
and ignored them.
They where confronted with something they couldnot understand,
and so they chose to ignore it.

ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE is NOT Evidence of ABsence!

> > Tom Craig
>
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
> |Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu
|
>
> Your point? You talk alot about perspective, but (no offense)
> yours seems rather narrow. I put it to you that magic(k) is merely
> science that we do not yet have the capacity to explain. You can no more
> prove to me that nature is magick than I can prove to you that magick is
> science, so this whole thing is pretty much pointless. Thus, my bubble
> remains unburst. :)

<CHOP>Magic is just a new branch of science, and can be
explained by simple rules

> > Life in and of itself is Magick, Magick is in ALL things. Well, I happen
to
> > be a practicing Magick-User (I put the "k" on Magick to distinguish
between
> > "Magic Tricks" and true Magic. A practice started by Aleister
Crowley)
>
> I am familiar with the works of Aleister Crowley. I have read
> extensively on the subject, though I do not necessarily hold any of his
> or the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn's views to be my own. Far from
> it in fact.

<CHOP>Aleister Crowley was cool, but misguided.
Some of his powers where real. some he 'exagerated'
But what happened in that Paris loft changed all that. He never
took it lightly again

> > I think this may start a new Magick debate, but oh, well. Technology is
> > another form of Magick (Hence the term Techno-wizard.), same with Chemical
> > Reactions (I Majored in this for two and a half years.), same with
> > reproduction, etc., etc.
> Again, perhaps technology is not a form of magick, but vice
> versa. But then again maybe not. But remember that the possibility
> remains, and until proven otherwise, it will always remain.

<CHOP>As the Jazz Dancing Dwarf from 'Twin Peaks'said
"OnE And tHe Same"
And suddenly He was the Very Tall Man

> > So with this perspective in mind that is how I can
> > state "The Fountain of Youth is Magickal." and be truthful about it.
Truth
> > and Reality are a matter of perspective.
>
> My point exactly. Your perspective just happens to be different
> from mine.
> The reason I am even carrying this debate out is to make you
> realize one small thing. When you make a comment like "the Fountain of
> Youth was magickal," it is your contention, and thus the burden of proof
> what you say.
> My original post was just me being a smartass, but I get sick of
> all of the crap that gets tossed around with nothing other than the
> traditional lame-o "Magick is Life, Life is Magick" statement to back it
> up. As a result, this discussion has progressed beyond the simple
> Fountain of Youth thing. Perhaps that is where it should have stayed.
>
<CHOP> As everything in existance on Earth is magical :
(proved in SRII by the statement that 'attack spells go
physical to astrial via the casters aura, and them astrial to
physical via the targets aura, so damage appears inside armour'
and the physical attack spells RAM, Wrecker and Urban Renewal.
This shows that all things have an aura (also the TN's for
inanimate objects ; TN8 for worked |TN10 for hitech? ). However
slight, all things are magical.)

>
> Marc (still the Devil's Advocate, Doubting Thomas, and Voice of Reason)
>
CHOPPER
I can play devils advocate...or is that Devils Invocate?

PS.
IDEA! as all things in SR have auras and magic, then the
spirits of items/places that are hi-tech can be summoned, (with
TN ajustments ;maybe (TN=force+effect TN)?)
You can summon CITY spirits, and they are spirits of highly
altered man made places. And they have no modifiers... So maybe
you could call a Mainframes Spirit? And what powers would THAT
have?
Call spirits of Cars to drive you around (skill=force?)

Whoops! Holy Game Balance Alert!
AROOGA AROOGA AROOGA!

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