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Message no. 1
From: Gossamer <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Magick question...
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 10:58:35 -0600
I have a question that has been bugging me for quite
some time, and I thought, 'Who better to help answer
it than those people who discuss this game for fun.'

My question has to do with Exclusive spell designation.
I don't understand it well at all. After looking
at all the written work, I am baffled. It looks like
it just gives you +2 dice for spell effect. But they
don't come out and say that.

The spell caster (that's me) can cast at an effective
Force of 2 higher than the Force at which I've learned
it, that 2 extra Force doesn't figure into Drain, nor
into determining whether or not I take physical or
stun damage from casting, and I *can't tell* whether it
counts for the victim's resistance test...

And if it *is* that it's only +2 dice for effect, why
didn't they just say so?

If anyone can clarify this for me (preferably with
page sights from a text, but house rules work too),
and use some sort of logic in the clarification, I'd
really appriciate it.

Onegaishimasu,

Gossamer
Message no. 2
From: Jose Vicente Mondejar Brell <jomonbre@***.UPV.ES>
Subject: Re: Magick question...
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:38:00 +0000
> I have a question that has been bugging me for quite
> some time, and I thought, 'Who better to help answer
> it than those people who discuss this game for fun.'

Gossamer... Gossamer... <thinking hard, eyes closed...>
I don't think I've read any previous post from you, so I think we'll
see something from the Bull-bot in a short time. Anyway, you're
welcome :)

> My question has to do with Exclusive spell designation.

I had some doubts on it some time ago, too.

> I don't understand it well at all. After looking
> at all the written work, I am baffled. It looks like
> it just gives you +2 dice for spell effect. But they
> don't come out and say that.

Well, there are some details...

> The spell caster (that's me) can cast at an effective
> Force of 2 higher than the Force at which I've learned
> it, that 2 extra Force doesn't figure into Drain, nor
> into determining whether or not I take physical or
> stun damage from casting, and I *can't tell* whether it
> counts for the victim's resistance test...
>
> And if it *is* that it's only +2 dice for effect, why
> didn't they just say so?
>
> If anyone can clarify this for me (preferably with
> page sights from a text, but house rules work too),
> and use some sort of logic in the clarification, I'd
> really appriciate it.

The way I handle this on my game is: say you cast an exclusive force
4 mana bolt, you throw 4+2(exclusive)+magic pool dice, you make your
drain resistance roll against the original force of the spell (4),
but the target resist an exclusive augmented spell (6)

> Onegaishimasu,
>
> Gossamer
>

Hope it helps.

--
Monde, who just answered a question :)
Message no. 3
From: Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.CARLETON.CA>
Subject: Re: Magick question...
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:24:02 EST
Hello and welcome, Gossamer.

Here is what I got from reading page 133 in the SR main book, for
exclusive spells. 1) Exclusive spells require fetishes! So watch out how
many times you cast the exclusive spell, else your mage may become
addicted to them. 2) The exclusive spell is cast as if it was 2 force
ratings higher, for detirmining the spells effects (i.e. resistance tests
and damage), but not for drain. Drain is detirmined from the spells
original force rating. 3) A mage cannot sustain spells, or use magical
skills, while casting, or sustaining, an exclusive spell. 4) A fetish is
usuable for one specific spell, you can't just buy a bunch, and use them
where needed. 5) Magic pool dice is allocated based on the adjusted spell
force rating (two force ratings higher than the original spell).

Hope this helps...

Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/8920/index.html
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magick question...
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:48:55 -0500
At 01:24 PM 3/6/97 EST, you wrote:
>Hello and welcome, Gossamer.
>
>Here is what I got from reading page 133 in the SR main book, for
>exclusive spells. 1) Exclusive spells require fetishes! So watch out how
>many times you cast the exclusive spell, else your mage may become
>addicted to them. 2) The exclusive spell is cast as if it was 2 force
>ratings higher, for detirmining the spells effects (i.e. resistance tests
>and damage), but not for drain. Drain is detirmined from the spells
>original force rating. 3) A mage cannot sustain spells, or use magical
>skills, while casting, or sustaining, an exclusive spell. 4) A fetish is
>usuable for one specific spell, you can't just buy a bunch, and use them
>where needed. 5) Magic pool dice is allocated based on the adjusted spell
>force rating (two force ratings higher than the original spell).
>
Two problems. I'm working from memory here, but I'm almost positive that
exclusive restrition and fetish-required are completely separate
restrictions on spells. You can combine both, but exclusive means the spell
casting must be your only magical activity at the time, while fetish
required means you must have a fetish to cast the spell, but may sustain a
spell at the same time or stack or whatever.

So, Exclusive +2 effective force, Reusable Fetish required +1 effective
force, Expendable Fetish required +2 effective force.

Second, magic pool dice limitations have nothing to do with the force of the
spell. The limit on magic pool that you can add to assist the spell success
test is the magic rating of the caster (modified by power foci, ititiation,
bioware, etc.). So, a mage with an essence of 6 magic rating of 6, and
rating 6 power focus can potentially add 12 magic pool dice to aid even a
force 1 spell.

--DT
Message no. 5
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Magick question...
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:01:13 EST
On Thu, 6 Mar 1997 10:58:35 -0600 Gossamer <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
writes:
>I have a question that has been bugging me for quite
>some time, and I thought, 'Who better to help answer
>it than those people who discuss this game for fun.'


In that case, you've come to the right place (unless you figure Paul Hume
knows best;)


>
>My question has to do with Exclusive spell designation.
>I don't understand it well at all. After looking
>at all the written work, I am baffled. It looks like
>it just gives you +2 dice for spell effect. But they
>don't come out and say that.

But they strongly imply it...



>
>The spell caster (that's me) can cast at an effective
>Force of 2 higher than the Force at which I've learned
>it, that 2 extra Force doesn't figure into Drain, nor
>into determining whether or not I take physical or
>stun damage from casting, and I *can't tell* whether it
>counts for the victim's resistance test...

Basically, add 2 to the effective Force of the spell, with the
restriction that you cannot be sustaining or casting any other spells
while you cast/sustain your exclusive spell...See p 133 SR2, and p
110-111 Grimoire 2. The Force of the spell is effectively increased by +2
for the victim, but not for resisting Drain, determining Lethal or Stun
Drain or when dispelling or engaging in Astral Combat, the +2 also gives
you two more dice to roll.



>
>And if it *is* that it's only +2 dice for effect, why
>didn't they just say so?

That would be too easy and straightforward;)



>
>If anyone can clarify this for me (preferably with
>page sights from a text, but house rules work too),
>and use some sort of logic in the clarification, I'd
>really appriciate it.

see above, though logic isn't my strong point:)


--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 6
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Magick question...
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:01:14 EST
Note: this is not a flame

On Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:24:02 EST Peter David Boddy
<pdboddy@****.CARLETON.CA> writes:
>Hello and welcome, Gossamer.
>
>Here is what I got from reading page 133 in the SR main book, for
>exclusive spells. 1) Exclusive spells require fetishes! So watch out
>how
>many times you cast the exclusive spell, else your mage may become
>addicted to them.

Wrong! On both counts! An Exclusive spell does not require a fetish
(that's a different requirement), and you can't become addicted to
fetishes anyway (only Foci, see Awakenings, p 103)


>2) The exclusive spell is cast as if it was 2 force
>ratings higher, for detirmining the spells effects (i.e. resistance
>tests
>and damage), but not for drain. Drain is detirmined from the spells
>original force rating. 3) A mage cannot sustain spells, or use
>magical
>skills, while casting, or sustaining, an exclusive spell.

Correct!



4) A fetish
>is
>usuable for one specific spell, you can't just buy a bunch, and use
>them
>where needed.

No! A fetish is purchased according to spell _category_. You can buy a
bunch, and use them for different spells, but only for spells within the
same category (btw, you don't get bonuses for fetishes if the spell
doesn't require them, unless you're using a fetish focus)


>5) Magic pool dice is allocated based on the adjusted
>spell
>force rating (two force ratings higher than the original spell).

Magic pool is equal to Sorcery (always!) Maximum number of Magic Pool
dice available to be allocated to a particular spell is equal to the
caster's Magic Attribute.

A spell may be designed to require exclusivity, a reusable fetish, an
expendable fetish, or either type of fetish (according to what _I_ got
out of SR2, p 133). And Exclusivity can be combined with fetish
requirements.


>
>Hope this helps...
>
>Pete

So do I:)

--
-Canthros-the-trying-hard-to-be-helpful-shapeshifter-mage
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 7
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Magick question...
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:23:56 -0500
>Monde, who just answered a question :)

Monde steps up to the plate. He swings. He hits. It's out of the Ballpark!

Doesn't it feel great to go from asking questions to answering them.
B>]#


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magick question...
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:33:00 +0100
Peter David Boddy said on 13:24/ 6 Mar 97...

> Here is what I got from reading page 133 in the SR main book, for
> exclusive spells. 1) Exclusive spells require fetishes!

No, they don't. An exclusive spell is something different than a
fetish-required spell. It is possible to learn a spell so that it's both
exclusive AND requires a fetish, but this is not necessary.

> So watch out how many times you cast the exclusive spell, else your mage
> may become addicted to them.

How do you figure that?

> 2) The exclusive spell is cast as if it was 2 force ratings higher, for
> detirmining the spells effects (i.e. resistance tests and damage), but
> not for drain. Drain is detirmined from the spells original force
> rating.

This is true for exclusive spells.

> 3) A mage cannot sustain spells, or use magical skills, while casting,
> or sustaining, an exclusive spell.

Right again. Some activities are also classed as "exclusive," like
banishing spirits, so you can't do other magical things at the same time.

> 4) A fetish is usuable for one specific spell, you can't just buy a
> bunch, and use them where needed.

Yep. You have to designate what spell requires a fetish, and how many
fetishes you have for it. It helps to make the fetish something easily
remembered, such as "a bunch of oak twigs tied together" instead of "a
reusable fetish for my Poltergeist spell."

> 5) Magic pool dice is allocated based on the adjusted spell force rating
> (two force ratings higher than the original spell).

Magic pool does not depend on the spell's Force but on your character's
Sorcery skill and Magic ratings: the number of dice in the pool is equal
to your skill, and the maximum number you can allocate to a spell equals
the Magic rating.
Whether or not Drain is physical is figured from the original Force,
however, without the +2 increase for exclusivity.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
'K moest kloppen want de bel doet het niet.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magick question...
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:33:00 +0100
Gossamer said on 10:58/ 6 Mar 97...

> I have a question that has been bugging me for quite some time, and I
> thought, 'Who better to help answer it than those people who discuss
> this game for fun.'

We're sick, aren't we? :)

> My question has to do with Exclusive spell designation. I don't
> understand it well at all. After looking at all the written work, I am
> baffled. It looks like it just gives you +2 dice for spell effect. But
> they don't come out and say that.

With an excclusive spell, you add 2 to the Force for purposes of number of
dice rolled, and TN to resist the spell. Drain, however, is based on the
original Force.

> The spell caster (that's me) can cast at an effective Force of 2 higher
> than the Force at which I've learned it, that 2 extra Force doesn't
> figure into Drain, nor into determining whether or not I take physical
> or stun damage from casting, and I *can't tell* whether it counts for the
> victim's resistance test...

It does count for the resistance test, but not for Drain, as you said.

For example, if you have Mana Bolt at Force 6 and you learned it as an
Exclusive spell, you can roll 8 dice for it but resist Drain for only a
Force 6 spell. The target, however, would have to roll against a TN 8 to
resist the spell's damage.
If your Magic Rating is 6, you would take Stun damage from this particular
spell, even though you'd have taken Physical damage if it were a _true_
Force 8 spell.

> And if it *is* that it's only +2 dice for effect, why didn't they just
> say so?

Because it does more than just that. Of note here is that, IIRC, in SR1 an
exclusive spell only added 2 dice to be rolled, nothing else.

> If anyone can clarify this for me (preferably with page sights from a
> text, but house rules work too), and use some sort of logic in the
> clarification, I'd really appriciate it.

SRII page 133 says "An exclusive spell allows the spell to be cast as if
its Force Rating were 2 points higher, for the purposes of determining the
spell's effect. Drain is calculated at the normal Force value, however."
This means that everything that is based on the spell's Force, except for
Drain, is increased by +2.

> Onegaishimasu,

Ook goedendag.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
'K moest kloppen want de bel doet het niet.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 10
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magick question...
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 14:00:58 +0000
|> Here is what I got from reading page 133 in the SR main book, for
|> exclusive spells. 1) Exclusive spells require fetishes!
|
|No, they don't. An exclusive spell is something different than a
|fetish-required spell. It is possible to learn a spell so that it's both
|exclusive AND requires a fetish, but this is not necessary.
|
|> So watch out how many times you cast the exclusive spell, else your mage
|> may become addicted to them.
|
|How do you figure that?

I think he's confusing fetishes with foci....
Hmmmmm....

|> 4) A fetish is usuable for one specific spell, you can't just buy a
|> bunch, and use them where needed.
|
|Yep. You have to designate what spell requires a fetish, and how many
|fetishes you have for it. It helps to make the fetish something easily
|remembered, such as "a bunch of oak twigs tied together" instead of "a
|reusable fetish for my Poltergeist spell."

I was always under the impression that fetishes were based on SPELL TYPE,
rather than individual spells....

So, you could use your combat fetish to cast ManaBolt or FireBall....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magick question...
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 13:36:57 GMT
Gurth writes
>
>
> > If anyone can clarify this for me (preferably with page sights from a
> > text, but house rules work too), and use some sort of logic in the
> > clarification, I'd really appriciate it.
>
> SRII page 133 says "An exclusive spell allows the spell to be cast as if
> its Force Rating were 2 points higher, for the purposes of determining the
> spell's effect. Drain is calculated at the normal Force value, however."
ok

> This means that everything that is based on the spell's Force,
> except for Drain, is increased by +2.
opps! Gurth!, no the poor targets resistance target number is
increased by +2

note base spell force (without the exclusive modifier) is used for
astral combat, grounding, etc etc, see the further discussion on this
in the latter part of GR2.

Mark
Message no. 12
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: Magick question...
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 08:00:57 +0100
Gurth meant:

>> And if it *is* that it's only +2 dice for effect, why didn't they just
>> say so?
>
>Because it does more than just that. Of note here is that, IIRC, in SR1 an
>exclusive spell only added 2 dice to be rolled, nothing else.

It also increases the target number to defend against the spells
effects...
ss
Message no. 13
From: Toaster <toaster@************.COM>
Subject: Re: Magick question...
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:43:59 -0800
> > SRII page 133 says "An exclusive spell allows the spell to be cast as if
> > its Force Rating were 2 points higher, for the purposes of determining the
> > spell's effect. Drain is calculated at the normal Force value, however."
> > This means that everything that is based on the spell's Force,
> > except for Drain, is increased by +2.
> opps! Gurth!, no the poor targets resistance target number is
> increased by +2
>
> note base spell force (without the exclusive modifier) is used for
> astral combat, grounding, etc etc, see the further discussion on this
> in the latter part of GR2.which means you can cast a Force 8 exclusive spell if your
magic rating is 6 without
taking physical drain, because 8 is only the effective force while 6 is the real force.
because of this, starting characters can get spells with effective forces of 7 and 8
upon character creation. sorta like concentrating and specializing does.

cyberspunk
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magick question...
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:42:19 +0100
Spike said on 14:00/ 7 Mar 97...

> I was always under the impression that fetishes were based on SPELL TYPE,
> rather than individual spells....
>
> So, you could use your combat fetish to cast ManaBolt or FireBall....

It looks like you can read it to mean both things -- the equipment list
gives costs for fetishes depending on the spell category, while it would
make sense (to me, anyway) to have the player designate a specific fetish
for each spell (s)he wants to learn with a fetish requirement.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm talking to remind me
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magick question...
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:42:19 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 13:36/ 7 Mar 97...

> > This means that everything that is based on the spell's Force,
> > except for Drain, is increased by +2.
> opps! Gurth!, no the poor targets resistance target number is
> increased by +2

Isn't that what I said? Everything based on the Force is increased by +2,
except for Drain. Since with most spells, the TN to resist is the Force,
so if you cast a Force 6 Exclusive spell, the target has to roll against
an 8 to resist it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm talking to remind me
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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