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Message no. 1
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Magic or Tech...
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 21:10:54 -0500
OK, after lurking here for a while I seem to find a common thread amongst
the people who usually talk on this list. You all seem to _HATE_ street
samurai and make life very rough on them while making things very easy on
mages, phys ads, etc. Is it just me or is there an EXTREME magic bias here?
Answer honestly...are you biased toward magic, tech, or do you
(miraculously) play a balance?

-- Bob Ooton (wondering if anyone out there has ever played a samurai for
any length of time)
Message no. 2
From: Mike Ruane <Nethicus@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 23:29:17 -0400
Hey bob--

I am rough on Street Sams because they don't have much to lose besides their
life. Hell, once you're cybered to the teeth, you're cybered to the teeth.
Our favorite street sam was a karma bank for the last few months of his
carrer before he retired. Also, sammies tend to handle damage a lot better
than mages. They don't have to worry about magic point loss. They're the
guys who still manage to kill the bad guys at the end of movies with blood
streaming down their face and them saying, "All right, pretty boy. This
one's from my momma!" *BLAM BLAM*

Mages always have to spend karma on anything from spells to suppositories and
tend to run away from anything that looks like a gun. Sams also have a bad
habit of moving in the late twenties or thrities. Remember: Bad guys notice
who shot at them first. Bad guys also tend to think the guy with the
gyro-mounted vindicator is much more threatening than the mage who's moving
with 2d6.

Plus mages are fun to screw around with. :-)

Mike, TGC
Message no. 3
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 1995 22:39:53 -0500
>I am rough on Street Sams because they don't have much to lose besides their
>life. Hell, once you're cybered to the teeth, you're cybered to the teeth.

Are you? there's always upgrades to get, bioware, etc. Karma may come
easy, but try paying off a street doc bill for beta-grade 'ware.

>Also, sammies tend to handle damage a lot better than mages.
>They don't have to worry about magic point loss. They're the
>guys who still manage to kill the bad guys at the end of movies with blood
>streaming down their face and them saying, "All right, pretty boy. This
>one's from my momma!" *BLAM BLAM*

Yeah, but you answer that dilemma in the next part of your letter...
"Remember: Bad guys notice who shot them first"

Personally, I'm more scared of the guy who killed half my team with a
hellblast than a guy who MIGHT hit someone with a machinegun (there's a
whole lotta minuses to consider when using one of those things. not the
least of which is "how did you sneak that into the building?")

>Mages always have to spend karma on anything from spells to suppositories and
>tend to run away from anything that looks like a gun. Sams also have a bad
>habit of moving in the late twenties or thrities. Remember: Bad guys notice
>who shot at them first. Bad guys also tend to think the guy with the
>gyro-mounted vindicator is much more threatening than the mage who's moving
>with 2d6.

How many mages are out there running 2D6?? I know of a couple, but they're
major newbies who didn't know to take the increase reflexes at 3. I would
be willing to bet that nearly everyone here has mages quickened or locked to
(reaction) +4D6.

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 11:15:43 +0200
>Answer honestly...are you biased toward magic, tech, or do you
>(miraculously) play a balance?

I don't think I'm biased toward anything except fascists -- both as a GM and
in real life :) But I do think I can speak for someone else, who's been
telling me that his GM won't allow his samurai to get bioware, despite the
character saving his money for about a year now (the GM thinks it unbalances
the game), but he does allow his magicians to get initiated and receive all
associated bonuses. The end result is that the magicians grow in power while
the samurai stays at about the same level he was when he was created.

>-- Bob Ooton (wondering if anyone out there has ever played a samurai for
>any length of time)

Yes, my player has been playing the same over-wired sam for the past two
years, nearly getting killed a couple of times (take my advice if you want
to make your character live long: don't buy a Pain Editor :) but he still
plays him.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Gotta get away from me
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
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Message no. 5
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:37:40 +0200
> OK, after lurking here for a while I seem to find a common thread amongst
> the people who usually talk on this list. You all seem to _HATE_ street
> samurai and make life very rough on them while making things very easy on
> mages, phys ads, etc. Is it just me or is there an EXTREME magic bias here?
> Answer honestly...are you biased toward magic, tech, or do you
> (miraculously) play a balance?

Well to be honest I like mages, I like the creativity inherent in magic,
does this make me biased *shrug* I dunno. OTOH I certainly dont hate sammies
hell I even ocasionally play one (I avoid deckers - net rules are too shity
for me so I have decided to do my group a favour and spare them all the
techno-talk about the real life net :) - and riggers - I never could relate
to them). What would be cyberpunk withough cyber :) ? I think that sammies
are pretty cool and definitelly an integral part of the SR universe.
OTOH as Mike said, sammies tend to be rather static in their development.
Sammies (well the ones that want to stand half a chance) tend to concentrate
on speed and they would be crazy not to get all their cyber during char
generation. This tends to make them extremely efficient and powerfull
(if you wana kill someone forget magic just take out you firearm of choise
and give him a sucking chest wound) but it also gives them no alternatives.
I mean sure thei can raise their atributes and skills, buy some more
skillsofts and toys - but it really doesnt matter if you got a Firearms
skill of 9 or one of 10 - and a Savalete Guardian can kill just as easily
as an ultra customised version of a top secret prototype of the nastiest
weapon Ares ever made :)
On the whole sammies are not funn to talk about because they dont have that
many options....

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 6
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:54:55 +0200
> >I am rough on Street Sams because they don't have much to lose besides their
> >life. Hell, once you're cybered to the teeth, you're cybered to the teeth.
>
> Are you? there's always upgrades to get, bioware, etc. Karma may come
> easy, but try paying off a street doc bill for beta-grade 'ware.

As far as I see it betaware (especially for essence expensive toys that
make it really worth it) is two things, munchkin and not feasible. Let me
explain, betaware means ((original cost)X street index)X 7 , so this
means that wired 3 beta would cost more than 4.5 mill (I dont have the street
index right now). Now please tell me what normal meta-human would throw
4.5 million nuyen out the window when he could buy a permanent near luxury
lifestyle ???????? OTOH what runner comes across that much money anyway.

> >Also, sammies tend to handle damage a lot better than mages.
> >They don't have to worry about magic point loss. They're the
> >guys who still manage to kill the bad guys at the end of movies with blood
> >streaming down their face and them saying, "All right, pretty boy. This
> >one's from my momma!" *BLAM BLAM*
>
> Yeah, but you answer that dilemma in the next part of your letter...
> "Remember: Bad guys notice who shot them first"
> Personally, I'm more scared of the guy who killed half my team with a
> hellblast than a guy who MIGHT hit someone with a machinegun (there's a
> whole lotta minuses to consider when using one of those things. not the
> least of which is "how did you sneak that into the building?")

No samies are *much* more deadly than mages. A simple example can illustrate
this. A mage casting manaball has a TN equall to the willpower of the target
(this means a 5 - 6 when dealing with someone of any worth) and risks damaging
himself. A sammie has a TN of 2 (almost) anytime (almost) anyplace. A mage
with a sorcery of 6 (pretty standard) get to roll force-of-spell-dice+allocated
pool-dice this summ will almost invariably be less than 12 even if the spell
is of force 6. A Sammie with a skill of 6 always gets his base 6 dice + any
pool dice (a samies combat pool ranges for 7-9 dice for starters). Needless
to say that a sammie doesnt have to worry about drain and its in his best
interest to use all the available pool dice to kill his opponent ASAP. This
is an (nearly) constant 12 dice.
I could go on rambling about how much damage a mage and a sammie do
but I think that I have made my point.

> >Mages always have to spend karma on anything from spells to suppositories and
> >tend to run away from anything that looks like a gun. Sams also have a bad
> >habit of moving in the late twenties or thrities. Remember: Bad guys notice
> >who shot at them first. Bad guys also tend to think the guy with the
> >gyro-mounted vindicator is much more threatening than the mage who's moving
> >with 2d6.
>
> How many mages are out there running 2D6?? I know of a couple, but they're
> major newbies who didn't know to take the increase reflexes at 3. I would
> be willing to bet that nearly everyone here has mages quickened or locked to
> (reaction) +4D6.

Any mage that still (all of them want to try it once) has a quickened or
locked incr.reflexws +3 spell and uses it often has a *very* linient GM.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 7
From: Mark Imbriaco <mark@********.IP.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 09:24:50 -0500
On Sun, 2 Apr 1995, Bob Ooton wrote:

> OK, after lurking here for a while I seem to find a common thread amongst
> the people who usually talk on this list. You all seem to _HATE_ street
> samurai and make life very rough on them while making things very easy on
> mages, phys ads, etc. Is it just me or is there an EXTREME magic bias here?
> Answer honestly...are you biased toward magic, tech, or do you
> (miraculously) play a balance?

Actually, I am pretty biased toward Tech, as are most of the
players in my game. The one mage that the party I'm running
had, got fed up with Drain, and just started cybering up. :-)
(I'd probably play a Decker, but the Decking rules suck... once
VR2 comes out, that could very well change.)

mark

_____ _ |\ o|\ | ______ I n t e r n e t P r e s e n c e & Publishing
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============================================================================
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B--- e+(*) u+ h+(*) f+ r++ n---(----) x+
Message no. 8
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 12:35:35 -0400
On Sun, 2 Apr 1995, Bob Ooton wrote:

> How many mages are out there running 2D6?? I know of a couple, but they're
> major newbies who didn't know to take the increase reflexes at 3. I would
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hey! Watch it! :)

> be willing to bet that nearly everyone here has mages quickened or locked to
> (reaction) +4D6.

Nope. I'm still chugging along with 1d6. And I probably never would get
anything quickened or locked on me. My GM would probably toast me. I
know I would. Of course, it's moot because I haven't played in about 2
years (not counting GenCon). :)

--Craig, the slow mage.
Message no. 9
From: THEY ONLY WIN IF WE LET THEM <MKNABUSCH@****.ALBION.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:47:30 -0500
From Craig, the slow mage.
>Nope. I'm still chugging along with 1d6.

Yep. My magically active characters don't have increased reflexes.
admittedly they are slow in fire-fights, but that's not their field
of expertise. One mage I ran spent most of his money on a rating 2
weapon foci (tanto). That was his pride and joy to start with.
Most times I use most of the money to by incredible libraries, materials,
or lodges (ever see how cheap it is for shamans to by lodge ratings that
are astronomical? Ever notice that this works against ritual sendings...
having nothing better to spend money on after a run...someone bought a
rating twenty lodge...you don't want to think of how large an area that is.).
But speed is not necessarily where its at.

Michael
aka Harlequin
(just getting to play again)
Message no. 10
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 00:19:39 -0500
> As far as I see it betaware (especially for essence expensive toys that
>make it really worth it) is two things, munchkin and not feasible. Let me
>explain, betaware means ((original cost)X street index)X 7 , so this
>means that wired 3 beta would cost more than 4.5 mill (I dont have the street
>index right now). Now please tell me what normal meta-human would throw
>4.5 million nuyen out the window when he could buy a permanent near luxury
>lifestyle ???????? OTOH what runner comes across that much money anyway.

Exactly. But beta level smartlinks and such save room so you can nab the
other stuff you've been wanting to add. (Wired reflexes aren't the only
thing out there. TopCat doesn't even have them...he uses a synaptic
accelerator.)

> No samies are *much* more deadly than mages. A simple example can illustrate
>this. A mage casting manaball has a TN equall to the willpower of the target
>(this means a 5 - 6 when dealing with someone of any worth) and risks damaging
>himself. A sammie has a TN of 2 (almost) anytime (almost) anyplace. A mage
>with a sorcery of 6 (pretty standard) get to roll force-of-spell-dice+allocated
>pool-dice this summ will almost invariably be less than 12 even if the spell
>is of force 6. A Sammie with a skill of 6 always gets his base 6 dice + any
>pool dice (a samies combat pool ranges for 7-9 dice for starters). Needless
>to say that a sammie doesnt have to worry about drain and its in his best
>interest to use all the available pool dice to kill his opponent ASAP. This
>is an (nearly) constant 12 dice.

Ummm... darkness mods. Cover mods. ARMOR (something those little mana
things don't have to worry a lot about). Range mods. Resistance dice
(combat pool can be used against a shotgun blast, but not against a
fireball). And I reserve my pool dice to make sure I live. It's a rare day
when I find myself one-on-one in the campaign I'm in.

> I could go on rambling about how much damage a mage and a sammie do
>but I think that I have made my point.

Have you? <G>

> Any mage that still (all of them want to try it once) has a quickened or
>locked incr.reflexws +3 spell and uses it often has a *very* linient GM.

Show of hands (or bytes as it were)...how many of you have "lenient GM's"?
<G>

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
"Last of the Mohicans...errr...Street Samurai"
Message no. 11
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 00:21:19 -0500
> Actually, I am pretty biased toward Tech, as are most of the
> players in my game. The one mage that the party I'm running
> had, got fed up with Drain, and just started cybering up. :-)
> (I'd probably play a Decker, but the Decking rules suck... once
> VR2 comes out, that could very well change.)


<nominates Mark as second to the last of the Mohicans...errr...Street Samurai>


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
"(I think you know what goes here...<G>)"
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:56:05 +0200
> Any mage that still (all of them want to try it once) has a quickened or
>locked incr.reflexws +3 spell and uses it often has a *very* linient GM.

Or is a grade 4 initiate with Masking... And then you can naturally say "let
her run into another initiate that pierces the masking," which is what I'll
do someday after we've finally finished HB...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
WYSIWYG: imperfect
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 13
From: ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD <arichard@****.IRESTE.FR>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 12:05:55 +0100
--

A TTTTTTT RRRRRR EEEEEEE III DDDDDD EEEEEEE
A A T R R E I D D E
A A T R R E I D D E
A A T RRRRRR EEEEE I D D EEEEE
AAAAAAA T R R E I D D E
A A T R R E I D D E
A A T R R EEEEEEE III DDDDDD EEEEEEE

That's me GNNAAaaaaaaaaaaaa 8->

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "Enjoy your life, it's so short when you have a Dragon in front of you..." |
| |
| Aymeric RICHARD - Atreide on IRC E-Mail : arichard@****.ireste.fr |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Message no. 14
From: ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD <arichard@****.IRESTE.FR>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 12:09:47 +0100
Seems like my mail had a problem, sorry :-(

Here is the (hopefully) good mail:

> Bob Ooton wrote:
> > be willing to bet that nearly everyone here has mages quickened or locked to
> > (reaction) +4D6.
>
> Nope. I'm still chugging along with 1d6. And I probably never would get
> anything quickened or locked on me. My GM would probably toast me. I
> know I would. Of course, it's moot because I haven't played in about 2
> years (not counting GenCon). :)
>
> --Craig, the slow mage.

I totally agree with Craig. I am a GM and I would transform my mage players
into cold meat if they dare go into a corp with quickened or locked stuff.
Megacorporation don't like these kind of intrusion...


|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "Enjoy your life, it's so short when you have a Dragon in front of you..." |
| |
| Aymeric RICHARD - Atreide on IRC E-Mail : arichard@****.ireste.fr |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Message no. 15
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:36:34 BST
Wow, mage v sammy debate again, what fun.

Feanor said :
> No samies are *much* more deadly than mages. A simple example can illustrate
> this. A mage casting manaball has a TN equall to the willpower of the target
> (this means a 5 - 6 when dealing with someone of any worth) and risks damaging
> himself. A sammie has a TN of 2 (almost) anytime (almost) anyplace. A mage
> with a sorcery of 6 (pretty standard) get to roll force-of-spell-dice+allocate
> pool-dice this summ will almost invariably be less than 12 even if the spell
> is of force 6. A Sammie with a skill of 6 always gets his base 6 dice + any
> pool dice (a samies combat pool ranges for 7-9 dice for starters). Needless
> to say that a sammie doesnt have to worry about drain and its in his best
> interest to use all the available pool dice to kill his opponent ASAP. This
> is an (nearly) constant 12 dice.

I do agre that mages do have a problem taking out hard targets (Willpoewr 5/6),
but then you shouldn;t see those people too often.

Sammy with a TNo of 2, your GM must not know too much about tactics, I started
out like that, now what with PC's hjiding behind the fikrrst available bit of
cover, and lofting smoke, it's always a base of 8, and that's without calling
a head shot to ensure that the other guy goes down first time.


How come this argument is all combat oriented, both Mage and Sammy can be real
interesting from a role-playing POV.

I don;t wanna know who can kicks the other's ass, I wanna know who can do the
mission, preferably with the least possible amount of violence. My PC's just
killed two police officers in cold blood in the FRFZ, and then shot it out with
SWAT, they're hurting, loe on ammo (there building/vehicles got destroyed), and
they still have six days to go before they can deliver there target. If they don't
start thinking with their brains rather than pulling the wagons in a circle and
waiting for the indians to ride round them (They're in the sioux sector, and two
PC's are indian, so no funny comments) They're going to be killed, police
don't take cop-killers prisoner.

It's not who can kick ass the best, it's the fun, and I enjoy my character's
not getting waseted in a fire-fight.

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack) Who tends to use Acid-Bomb for laying down smoke cover,
because it's crap.
Message no. 16
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:56:40 +0200
> Exactly. But beta level smartlinks and such save room so you can nab the
> other stuff you've been wanting to add. (Wired reflexes aren't the only
> thing out there. TopCat doesn't even have them...he uses a synaptic
> accelerator.)

I am glad we agree :) but you dont seriously beleive that 2.5K X 7 = 17.5K
is enough nuyen to represent an unreachable goal :)

> Ummm... darkness mods. Cover mods. ARMOR (something those little mana
> things don't have to worry a lot about). Range mods. Resistance dice
> (combat pool can be used against a shotgun blast, but not against a
> fireball). And I reserve my pool dice to make sure I live. It's a rare day
> when I find myself one-on-one in the campaign I'm in.

I said "(almost)" as for the pools you are right. Well dont tell me that
armor is a problem for your sammie - I hate to use another lame example
but here goes - a savalette guardian does in BF mode 12D and your standard
runner armor (armor jacket) is a measly 5 balistic this still leaves you
an ample power of 7. Now this was only a heavy pistol !!!! And if you think
that an armor jacket is too wimply then I am sorry - I dont like my players
running around with full suits of heavy.
As for being one-on-one maybe you should consider getting some buddies ...

> > I could go on rambling about how much damage a mage and a sammie do
> >but I think that I have made my point.
> Have you? <G>

Ok SR is on the whole very balanced - anyone can kill anyone - and its
no use arguing which type of char is stronger. But you have to admit that
when it comes down to doing damage (read death and destruction :) sammies
are the absolute specialists (as a matter of fact I think you said that
yourself in another post).

> > Any mage that still (all of them want to try it once) has a quickened or
> >locked incr.reflexws +3 spell and uses it often has a *very* linient GM.
>
>Show of hands (or bytes as it were)...how many of you have "lenient GM's"?
<G>

Well I think that the turnout shows I am right about this one. I can
understand that mages can be really frustrating for the GM and the other
players if the GM doesnt actively enforce their disadvantages - cause
magic has some of those too :)


--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 17
From: SilverFire <SSHERMAN@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 12:56:38 -0500
I don't see why people are argueing which is better, each can
kill you just as easily as the other or save your hide. I play the street
sams since every time I make a character we already have our fill of magic
types and I have more fun playing the cyberpsychos 8*) We try to keep things
balanced between the characters and if we don't the GM will (especially
when Quicksilver is feeling truly demented some of the things he throws at
us, my character still has nightmares 'bout some of that stuff *sigh*).
Well 'nough babbling for now (sounds of SilverFire pulling a flame retardant
suit)


SilverFire



"Why is destiny always beckoning to every PUNK who comes along?"

Wolverine

_Scorpio Rising_
Message no. 18
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 19:48:18 GMT
> I am rough on Street Sams because they don't have much to lose besides their
> life. Hell, once you're cybered to the teeth, you're cybered to the teeth.

Not necessarily. Yes, you have a sickening amount of cyberware. You are
dependent on those wires. Someone scores an (un)lucky hit and a vital
component is damaged. Sorry, sir, those are alphaware, we can't fix it...

A samurai in that situation is in real trouble because while (s)he is
desperately searching for the required tech and someone who knows how to
install it, anyone who wants him or her dead is gunning for them - with
force appropriate to a wired-2 speed machine. This is not a nice place to be.

> Our favorite street sam was a karma bank for the last few months of his
> carrer before he retired.

So what? Learn some side skills. Learn to deck. Learn to drive. Learn to play
the electric guitar. If a character sees no aim in life beyond monstrous
Firearms skill, the GM may not be offering incentives to roleplay. I've
run Lynch for six years now: he's a 'karma bank' all right (Firearms-10,
Unarmed-10, Armed-9, Computer-9, Musical Instrument (Fender Stratocaster) 9).
He's gross - but can you imagine what a mage with that much karma spent on
them would be like? He's still interesting to play because he still bleeds
when the other side get the first shot.

> Also, sammies tend to handle damage a lot better
> than mages. They don't have to worry about magic point loss. They're the
> guys who still manage to kill the bad guys at the end of movies with blood
> streaming down their face and them saying, "All right, pretty boy. This
> one's from my momma!" *BLAM BLAM*

Mages can throw up all sorts of barriers. Mages _always_ seem to have time
to heal themselves, but they're less keen on helping the samurai - besides,
with that little essence, it's very difficult.

And in brute physical terms - why wouldn't a samurai handle damage better?
It is their speciality, after all...

> Mages always have to spend karma on anything from spells to suppositories and
> tend to run away from anything that looks like a gun. Sams also have a bad
> habit of moving in the late twenties or thrities. Remember: Bad guys notice
> who shot at them first. Bad guys also tend to think the guy with the
> gyro-mounted vindicator is much more threatening than the mage who's moving
> with 2d6.

You let people carry gyromounted Vindicators in your game? :-)

We stick with 3-second turns, 0.1 second phases, maximum action 30. Levels
the field somewhat - and a samurai (or magician) whose last action is on
10 can find themselves really hurting in a hurry.

Mages do burn Karma, sure: samurai burn money. Sort of a balance, isn't it?
Samurai are far more vulnerable against many magical beings (especially insect
spirits - a group which wandered into several spirits damn near died because
the samurai were only carrying pistols, and the mage panicked and ran...)
Both classes have their advantages and weaknesses.

> Plus mages are fun to screw around with. :-)

And samurai aren't?

Mages tend to just appear: I've seen only a few magical characters with deep
backgrounds. Lynch, my mercenary, had a very detailed personal history, since
in our campaign people with military-grade skills, cyberware and training just
don't wander into bars and say hi. The Lady, my wife's samurai character, had
an even more detailed past... ever seen La Femme Nikita? A good background is
the best way of all to screw around with a character. An old friend from years
back is found dead. An old enemy thought long dead reappears. All when you're
most vulnerable....

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 19
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:47:30 -0500
> I don't see why people are argueing which is better, each can
>kill you just as easily as the other or save your hide. I play the street
>sams since every time I make a character we already have our fill of magic
>types and I have more fun playing the cyberpsychos 8*) We try to keep things
>balanced between the characters and if we don't the GM will (especially
>when Quicksilver is feeling truly demented some of the things he throws at
>us, my character still has nightmares 'bout some of that stuff *sigh*).
>Well 'nough babbling for now (sounds of SilverFire pulling a flame retardant
>suit)

If you look at my message which started this, you'll see that my point was
not which is better...it's that very few people see technology as anything
but something which keeps mages from going first in the combat round. And
cyberpsychosis is a great thing, my character has bouts of it with some
frequency (that's a roleplaying thing for mage/munchkins out there). Many
people (not all...just a lot) give mages pretty much free reign over the
rules while making life damn near impossible for samurai (cyberpsychosis,
while a wonderful roleplaying tool is hell on the character...a mages
biggest worry is usually "how much karma do I need for my NEXT level of
initiation?").

The point (time and again) is that it's the player who makes the character,
not the archetype...

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 20
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:57:45 -0500
>I totally agree with Craig. I am a GM and I would transform my mage players
>into cold meat if they dare go into a corp with quickened or locked stuff.
>Megacorporation don't like these kind of intrusion...

Of course megacorporations don't like that stuff, but I wouldn't
let/couldn't see most runners ever getting into the Arcology or the Pyramid
and living more than a few seconds. Now getting into a warehouse?
Different story.

Also, quickened and locked stuff is certainly a delicious looking target to
an opposing mage, but it also keeps him from doing what he should be doing
(i.e. kill the guy who has the locks before they matter). Mages (normally)
won't have more than one (if they're lucky 2) actions and having to spend
one killing a lock is kinda suicidal. Best way to deal with locks? A
simple barrier spell. The kinda thing any kid mage could cast. It'll break
those things like kindling. And THOSE could be anywhere. (Hears mages
boo'ing and hissing when they have to face what they are usually throwing at
the opposition)

Finally, someone who knows how to balance a game <G>

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 21
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:14:54 -0500
>How come this argument is all combat oriented, both Mage and Sammy can be real
>interesting from a role-playing POV.

I didn't WANT it to be combat oriented. I was merely trying to explain that
people make life a whole lot easier on mages than they do on samurai.
There's a hefty bias out there and I just wanted to expose it <G>.

>I don;t wanna know who can kicks the other's ass, I wanna know who can do the
>mission, preferably with the least possible amount of violence. My PC's just
>killed two police officers in cold blood in the FRFZ, and then shot it out with
>SWAT, they're hurting, loe on ammo (there building/vehicles got destroyed), and
>they still have six days to go before they can deliver there target. If
they don't
>start thinking with their brains rather than pulling the wagons in a circle and
>waiting for the indians to ride round them (They're in the sioux sector,
and two
>PC's are indian, so no funny comments) They're going to be killed, police
>don't take cop-killers prisoner.

Good deal...too many people forget about that. But it also seems that
people forget that cops can be mages too. So next time your freindly
neighborhood spellslinger decides to confuse a group of cops so they can
slide on by, have an officer explain to him the error of his ways.

>It's not who can kick ass the best, it's the fun, and I enjoy my character's
>not getting waseted in a fire-fight.

Agreed! No-one likes to die, but if they do something stupid (shooting up
the place and casting spells while another mage can see you are two of these
examples) you're gonna end up paying for it, or at least you damn well should.

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 22
From: "<Great Czar>" <GreatCzar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 18:17:12 -0400
Bob Ooton wrote:
>Karma may come
>easy, but try paying off a street doc bill for beta-grade 'ware.

Money is cheap, but karma is dear.

> I would
>be willing to bet that nearly everyone here has mages quickened or >locked
to
>(reaction) +4D6.

You would bet wrong:) In our games, spell locks and quickened spells are a
sure way to lose karma the hard way. One point at a time. I'm even biased in
the favor of mages, but that doesn't stop me from giving them hell when I GM.
I feel that mages should be powerful but that they should go through many year
s of hell to get there.

Great Czar
Message no. 23
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 18:49:31 -0500
>> Exactly. But beta level smartlinks and such save room so you can nab the
>> other stuff you've been wanting to add. (Wired reflexes aren't the only
>> thing out there. TopCat doesn't even have them...he uses a synaptic
>> accelerator.)
>
> I am glad we agree :) but you dont seriously beleive that 2.5K X 7 = 17.5K
>is enough nuyen to represent an unreachable goal :)

Sounds like you either misinterpretted me before or gotr crossed up. 17500
is definitely an attainable goal and well worthwhile for beta-links.

> I said "(almost)" as for the pools you are right. Well dont tell me that
>armor is a problem for your sammie - I hate to use another lame example
>but here goes - a savalette guardian does in BF mode 12D and your standard
>runner armor (armor jacket) is a measly 5 balistic this still leaves you
>an ample power of 7. Now this was only a heavy pistol !!!! And if you think
>that an armor jacket is too wimply then I am sorry - I dont like my players
>running around with full suits of heavy.

Good, because I also believe that runners shouldn't be walking around with
that on unless they're doing milspec runs. ("Okay, guys! We're going into
the bar. Everyone got their Panthers and Heavy Mil Armor? Cool...let's see
if that guy ever spills MY drink again!") Let's face it, PANICBUTTONS get
hit when people see that stuff marching around downtown.

> As for being one-on-one maybe you should consider getting some buddies ...

I do have buddies, quite a few. But corps have much larger payrolls than
me, unfortunately.

> Ok SR is on the whole very balanced - anyone can kill anyone - and its
>no use arguing which type of char is stronger. But you have to admit that
>when it comes down to doing damage (read death and destruction :) sammies
>are the absolute specialists (as a matter of fact I think you said that
>yourself in another post).

Guns and explosives and area affect spells actually get a lot more kills
than sammies. It's just that samurai tend to end up with a broader scope of
abilities at higher levels than most other char types. And variety is what
will enable a character to get out of more types of situations. Thereby, a
samurai's overall survivability is increased (hence "tougher" though I hate
to use such a general term).

> Well I think that the turnout shows I am right about this one. I can
>understand that mages can be really frustrating for the GM and the other
>players if the GM doesnt actively enforce their disadvantages - cause
>magic has some of those too :)

I've seen a few people admitting to their munchinous ways. You've not won yet!

And magic has LOTS of disadvantages! Tech has a few, but for the most part
"tech" disadvantages are the general disadvantages applied evenly to ALL
things in the game (darkness mods, etc...). It's just that a fair amount of
GM's conveniently overlook (read: never try to figure out... it's convenient
only from a player's standpoint) the disad's of magic.

Quick question... How many GM's out there (players feel free to answer for
your GM) apply lighting and cover mods to spells? They do have to see the
target, right? Mirrored glass on buildings and vehicles poses another
threat to casters.

ah well...let's see how this one fares the list...

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 24
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 00:06:38 GMT
> Sammies (well the ones that want to stand half a chance) tend to concentrate
> on speed and they would be crazy not to get all their cyber during char
> generation. This tends to make them extremely efficient and powerfull
> (if you wana kill someone forget magic just take out you firearm of choise
> and give him a sucking chest wound) but it also gives them no alternatives.

In one run, my mercenary and a fellow samurai had both invested in top-spec
headware radios: ten-channel commlinks, encrypt/decrypt, and a scanner
facility. The Aztechnology security come on the net saying "They're heading
for the main lab!" Tronic adds "Wearing Guard uniform!" Cue Blue-on-Blue
firefight among the groups of security converging on the lab. We opened
up on them and simultaneously came on their net saying "Undercover security!
Taking fire from the raiders! Help us! We're in Biotech, they're in the corridor
outside in stolen uniforms!"

No alternatives my fourth point of contact :-)

Oh, and we had wired up the tannoy so we could override it. Nobody had time
to do anything about that. So as well as confusing radio messages, the tannoy's
announcing that the terrorists have released VITAS-3 in the air conditioner and
can everyone please leave the building in an orderly manner?. Cue mass exodus
of screaming panicked wageslaves.

Looking back, we had borrowed some Neuromancer ideas - read the hit on the
Sense/Net pyramid. Do magicians have a monopoly on bright ideas?

The point of *good* merc/sammie/wiremonster type characters, as well as the
various flavours of physad, is that you use wit, brains and cunning to make
sure the enemy is so demoralised and depleted that they just drop their guns
and run when you shoot at them.

> I mean sure thei can raise their atributes and skills, buy some more
> skillsofts and toys - but it really doesnt matter if you got a Firearms
> skill of 9 or one of 10 - and a Savalete Guardian can kill just as easily
> as an ultra customised version of a top secret prototype of the nastiest
> weapon Ares ever made :)

Firearms-10 and 13 dice of Combat Pool means that Lynch can take a pistol where
others would want assault rifles (or assault *cannon* in some cases) with
all the benefits of being less noticed, and being more likely to be able to
keep his hardware. He doesn't like the Savalette, prefers revolvers. With his
antique .357, he gets two shots to a Savalette's one, does enough damage, and
has more intimidation value: thumbing back the hammer of a revolver is a very
scary thing when it's aimed at your left eye.

And he also plays the guitar very well: with nine dice he's approaching his
all-time idol, Jimi Hendrix. He also learned to deck after a series of accidents
and mishaps with PC and NPC deckers, ranging from the basic to the catastrophic.

> On the whole sammies are not funn to talk about because they dont have that
> many options....

Yes they do: it's just that you don't have those options handed to you on a
plate the way magicians do. You have to be creative rather than just write
another spell.

Lynch is a lot more vulnerable than a magician, in many ways. That's why, gross-
out combat machine or not, he's still interesting and challenging to play. I
ran a wolf shaman for a while, but once he hit level 3 initiation the fun went
out of it: there wasn't enough risk. Fenris was good enough with both guns and
magic to defeat almost anything you threw at him without having to think. Lynch
frequently retreats under cover of smoke and flash grenades, to find that
elusive Plan B that lets him win: mages with wired support are lethal and Lynch
survives by retreating, to snipe from a distance and eliminate the spell-casters
before picking off the support muscle.

He's also learned to be very cautious indeed. For instance, in the PBeM he's in
at the moment, the team have just been surprised by an old man whose car
has broken down and several of them have gone to help. Lynch is on the roof with
a toolbag containing a sniper rifle, pretending to tinker with an uptake while
he watches the repairs to make sure nothing happens. Almost certainly a waste
of his time and effort: but if something goes wrong or it turns out to be a
trap, he's there with a silenced rifle and the skill to use it from a
reasonably unexpected angle. Paranoid? Everyone *does* want to kill him. He
survives because it's too expensive to mount an anti-Lynch operation, and
previous attempts were costly failures. There are several corps who would
delight in a chance to rid themselves of such a nuisance as him if they had
the chance, though.

One of the most interesting runs we played involved the group trapped without
weapons in a killing zone, being attacked for the trideo cameras - basically a
version of "The Running Man". The (three) magicians were in heaven: problem,
what problem? They still had all their spells... Lynch and the Lady (merc and
samurai) had to fight very smart indeed since all they had were cyberspurs
against assault rifles (which were keyed to the user's smartgun link, of
course...) One mage died from a terminal case of overconfidence. Both
wiremonsters came out perforated and bleeding, but alive, because they made
use of the environment, improvised, and didn't use the same trick twice.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 25
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 00:37:55 GMT
Gawd, I'm replying *again*... maybe I'm trying to be the fourth Mohican, Bob :-)

> As far as I see it betaware (especially for essence expensive toys that
> make it really worth it) is two things, munchkin and not feasible. Let me
> explain, betaware means ((original cost)X street index)X 7 , so this
> means that wired 3 beta would cost more than 4.5 mill (I dont have the street
> index right now). Now please tell me what normal meta-human would throw
> 4.5 million nuyen out the window when he could buy a permanent near luxury
> lifestyle ???????? OTOH what runner comes across that much money anyway.

Try this one. You are about to hit a corporation - one that is independently
quoted on the market - and the results of your mission will be loud and public.
Say it's to annihilate their main research lab. Now do the words "bear market"
come to mind? Sell every share you possibly can without attracting attention on
ninety-day terms. Do the hit. If it fails, your trading contract is the least
of your worries :-) If it succeeds, the price will plummet and you're in the
money. Invest some profit in another fake ID because you won't be able to repeat
the trick under the same name, and throw away the ID you used for the
transaction because many people may now come to look for it.

Remember also alpha/betaware prices are based on rarity, street value, and many
other things: cost price to the supplier is a lot lower. Soryama hires for
runs occasionally: guess what he pays in? You got it - top-spec betaware,
installation included. A betaware smartgun link, datajack and cybereyes are a
really good paycheck to most samurai.

And if you're good enough to pull in the money for betaware, you have enough
enemies that you'll need it...

> No samies are *much* more deadly than mages. A simple example can illustrate
> this. A mage casting manaball has a TN equall to the willpower of the target
> (this means a 5 - 6 when dealing with someone of any worth) and risks damaging
> himself. A sammie has a TN of 2 (almost) anytime (almost) anyplace.

In smoke against someone in cover? And if there's a way to wear armour against
magic I'd like to know what it is.

> A mage with a sorcery of 6 (pretty standard) get to roll force-of-spell-
> dice+allocated pool-dice this summ will almost invariably be less than 12
> even if the spell is of force 6.

Totem modifiers, power focuses, fetish focuses, specific spell focuses,
elemental aid sorcery power... need I continue? Which of these does a samurai
get?

> A Sammie with a skill of 6 always gets his base 6 dice + any
> pool dice (a samies combat pool ranges for 7-9 dice for starters). Needless
> to say that a sammie doesnt have to worry about drain and its in his best
> interest to use all the available pool dice to kill his opponent ASAP.

Unless his opponent has friends who are trying to return the compliment, in
which case if he blows his combat pool he's dead meat. While a magician can
blow his entire Magic Pool into one spell and still dodge bullets.

> I could go on rambling about how much damage a mage and a sammie do
> but I think that I have made my point.

Not really. Both have advantages, one of which is when a magician
and a samurai see each other at 200-300 metres range (we do a lot of wilderness
work) and the samurai has a SMG. Street-samurai sushi in most cases, or at best
a sammie down in the weeds trying to be invisible: immobilised and helpless.

> > How many mage are out there running 2D6?? I know of a couple, but they're
> > major newbies who didn't know to take the increase reflexes at 3. I would
> > be willing to bet that nearly everyone here has mages quickened or locked to
> > (reaction) +4D6.
>
> Any mage that still (all of them want to try it once) has a quickened or
> locked incr.reflexws +3 spell and uses it often has a *very* linient GM.

We have magicians with wired reflexes :-) Beat *that* up in astral, ya bastard!
Astral combat takes time you don't have in a firefight anyway, and is a great
way to make enemies. One time a PC mage decided a stranger's nine quickened
spells offended him, and attacked them. The stranger (seemingly a level-zero
initiate) dropped her masking, revealing herself to be a Great Dragon in
full pissed-off mood... After it stopped raining burning chunks of magician,
we apologised to the Dragon (begged for our lives, actually) and were allowed
to flee. By the same token, random (or even planned) attacks on astral entities
like quickened/locked spells, foci etc. are rare except for the munchkinous of
intent. Monster power foci tend to have short lives...

Cue the detective hired for a case by a PC mage.
"Why did these people steal my Rating 9 power focus that was worth nearly three
million newyen?"
"Because it was worth nearly three million newyen? That will be the standard
fee of 500Y. Please slam the door on the way out..."

Letting the magicians keep up with the samurai is only fair. Increase +4,
though, causes nervous system damage in my game. There's fair and there's
taking advantage... :-)

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 26
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 19:20:16 -0500
>Money is cheap, but karma is dear.

Gimme a fat credstick over a point of karma anyday. (Hmmm, I guess I only
have to eat raw soy for two more months, but I can cast hellblast! Of
course, my emaciated body will turn to dust when I do...)

>> I would be willing to bet that nearly everyone here has mages quickened
or locked to (reaction) +4D6.

>You would bet wrong:) In our games, spell locks and quickened spells are a
sure way to lose karma the hard way. One point at a time. I'm even biased in
the favor of mages, but that doesn't stop me from giving them hell when I
GM. I feel that mages should be powerful but that they should go through
many years of hell to get there.

True, but I'm also willing to bet that your game is the exception, not the
rule. I, personally, feel that mages should know that there are limitations
out there. All too often those limits are never brought to bear (which is
one of the core reasons I started this thread in the first place).


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 27
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 20:20:08 -0400
On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, Bob Ooton wrote:

> Many people (not all...just a lot) give mages pretty much free reign
> over the rules while making life damn near impossible for samurai
> (cyberpsychosis, while a wonderful roleplaying tool is hell on the
> character...a mages biggest worry is usually "how much karma do I need
> for my NEXT level of initiation?").

Yes, but a good GM can make things hellish on a mage as well.
Take the magical group, for instance. Yes, it's a great way to increase
your personal knowledge and power. But what if you slowly discover that
the group you joined turns out to be a little more than you'd bargained
for. And what if you come to the realization that you can't just leave.
It's too late. You know too much. A great situation for roleplaying and
one that can challenge the player as well as the character.
So it's up to the players to role-play the characters, but it's
up to the GM to come up with new and interesting challenges that will
engage the players beyond "I rolled a 34 on my initiative. I blast the
baddie."

Marc
Message no. 28
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 20:32:48 -0400
On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, Bob Ooton wrote:

> Of course megacorporations don't like that stuff, but I wouldn't
> let/couldn't see most runners ever getting into the Arcology or the Pyramid
> and living more than a few seconds.

Not *every* run involves sneaking into someplace you're not
supposed to be. Long term infiltration runs are great for roleplaying
challenges because by and large you can't just hose people down with guns
or spells. Why would the corper-scag you're posing as have an assault
rifle, anyway? Instead, you need a much more powerful weapon...subtlety.
I ran a group of runners that spent almost three weeks in the
Renraku arcology. Three very tense, very paranoid weeks, hoping beyond
hope that they or one of the other operatives didn't blow their cover and
get them all killed. Shots fired? Two. And those were fired *at* the
players, not by them.

Marc
Message no. 29
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 20:46:49 -0400
On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, Bob Ooton wrote:

> Quick question... How many GM's out there (players feel free to answer for
> your GM) apply lighting and cover mods to spells? They do have to see the
> target, right? Mirrored glass on buildings and vehicles poses another
> threat to casters.

I do. My players aren't always aware of it, but they're usually
included in there somewhere. And exterior-opaque and mirrored windows
are just a fact of life.

Marc
Message no. 30
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 21:16:03 -0400
On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, Bob Ooton wrote:

> If you look at my message which started this, you'll see that my point was
> not which is better...it's that very few people see technology as anything
> but something which keeps mages from going first in the combat round.

Actually, I think it's more that most if not all of the people on
the list are comfortable enough with technology that there's less need to
discuss it here on the list. Not that we don't have tech discussions, of
course (especially about ammunition, aviation, and power sources.)
Overall, magic -- especially within the Shadowrun system -- is
much less concrete, and much more...random. Not always, of course, but
it follows paths of nature that we humans don't always fully understand,
or some crap like that. *grin*
ATTENTION: Let us /NOT/ get into another flamewar over the nature
of magic. My point is that magic is less obvious, and therefore garners
more discussion on the list.

> The point (time and again) is that it's the player who makes the character,
> not the archetype...

Yup.

-------------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com> =========-------------
| "Peace, love, empathy." |
| --Last words from Kurt Cobain to his fans |
--------========== http://www.cais.com/jdfalk/home.html ==========--------
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:42:54 +0200
>>My PC's just killed two police officers in cold blood in the FRFZ
[snip]
>>(They're in the sioux sector,
>
>Good deal...too many people forget about that. But it also seems that
>people forget that cops can be mages too. So next time your freindly
>neighborhood spellslinger decides to confuse a group of cops so they can
>slide on by, have an officer explain to him the error of his ways.

Don't forget that most Sioux-sector "police" are actually ex-Wildcat special
forces, so these guys know how to kick ass better than the average street cop...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Be yourself no matter what they say
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 32
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:58:10 BST
Top-cat wrote:
> Quick question... How many GM's out there (players feel free to answer for
> your GM) apply lighting and cover mods to spells? They do have to see the
> target, right? Mirrored glass on buildings and vehicles poses another
> threat to casters.

All the time man, gone are the days of 2 TNo fire-fights, unles you're stupid
enough to get into a fight in a nice brightly-lit corp HQ corridor.

I apply Lighting mods to all spells that need them, combat and DM's mostly,
and cover effects to DM's only, to make up for their low target number.
Most of the rest of the time, only Injury mod's are supposed to count anyway.

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)/
Message no. 33
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 20:14:03 +1000
Bob Ooton writes:

> OK, after lurking here for a while I seem to find a common thread amongst
> the people who usually talk on this list. You all seem to _HATE_ street
> samurai and make life very rough on them while making things very easy on
> mages, phys ads, etc. Is it just me or is there an EXTREME magic bias here?
> Answer honestly...are you biased toward magic, tech, or do you
> (miraculously) play a balance?

I would have said the complete opposite actually. Most every time magic is
discussed on here, the eventual resolution is to crack down on magicians or
the magic rules. Take the spell locks for example. When "spell locks in your
mouth" came up, the solution wasn't "yeah, that'd be a grand idea", it was
"not fragging likely to work", followed by xxx reasons why not. Magic is
probably a more common thread on here because it is so different from our
real lives. Technology, and even things such as advanced cybertech are not
completely alien to us, while magic is. It does generally seem to me however
that when new suggestions for rules and abiltiies/etc are made, they
invariabley relate to magic. People often suggest new metamagical abilities
for initiates for example, but new cyberware for sammies rarely comes up. I
do, however, feel that people seem to have a bias towards phys adepts (and I
pointed this out recently). Myself I have a bias towards magicans, because
they are much more interesting to me than sammies, which I find, well,
mundane. <grin>

------------------
Mike Ruane writes:

> Bad guys also tend to think the guy with the gyro-mounted vindicator is
> much more threatening than the mage who's moving with 2d6.

Haven't you ever heard the call "Geek the mage!"? I, and many others hear it
often. _Any_ magically active opponent is the prime target, not the
mundanes. Generalising (I know there are plenty of contradictory examples,
but I said generally, and it is that I have found it this way in my
experience), magicians have the capacity to deal out huge amounts of damage
in avery short timespan, with not too many side effects or restrictions.
This makes them feared opponents, and hence prime targets. That and the fact
that after the enemies magician is dead, your sides magician becomes _soo_
much more effective.

-----------------
Bob Ooton writes:

> > Come, now. Admittedly most people limit their abilities for role-playing
> > when they choose the Samurai, this is not always the case.
>
> Of course it's not the case! True roleplayers >can< play anything. Is it
> harder to roleplay a samurai than a mage? Hell, no!

I do tend to notice that those who are not very good role-players usually go
for the samurais in most of my games though. I don't know how representative
this is though, since most others on here seem to indicate that the power
gamers/munchkins go for the magicians in their games.

> > Any mage that still (all of them want to try it once) has a quickened or
> > locked incr.reflexws +3 spell and uses it often has a *very* linient GM.
>
> Show of hands (or bytes as it were)...how many of you have "lenient GM's"?
> <G>

Well, my players (the magicians anyhow) use quickened and spell locked +3
Reflexes very often. Actually, about once or twice a run. <evil GM grin>.
Just because they use them often does not mean I am lenient (it just means
they are slow leaners :-)).

> Quick question... How many GM's out there (players feel free to answer for
> your GM) apply lighting and cover mods to spells? They do have to see the
> target, right? Mirrored glass on buildings and vehicles poses another
> threat to casters.

I do, all the time, assuming I remember (which is mostly, unless I am
extremely hassled out, or am ignoring all visiblity modifiers in the name of
quicker combat due to less TN calculating and easier shooting). The cover
mods are one of the few things which make magic managable, otherwise it
would be way too effective - heaps better than a firearm.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 34
From: ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD <arichard@****.IRESTE.FR>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 1980 07:22:33 +0100
Feanor said :
> No samies are *much* more deadly than mages. A simple example can illustrate
> this. A mage casting manaball has a TN equall to the willpower of the target
> (this means a 5 - 6 when dealing with someone of any worth) and risks damaging
> himself. A sammie has a TN of 2 (almost) anytime (almost) anyplace. A mage
> with a sorcery of 6 (pretty standard) get to roll force-of-spell-dice+allocate
> pool-dice this summ will almost invariably be less than 12 even if the spell
> is of force 6. A Sammie with a skill of 6 always gets his base 6 dice + any
> pool dice (a samies combat pool ranges for 7-9 dice for starters). Needless
> to say that a sammie doesnt have to worry about drain and its in his best
> interest to use all the available pool dice to kill his opponent ASAP. This
> is an (nearly) constant 12 dice.

As a nice GM, I advise myt players to have a willpower of 3 as a VERY minimum.
Most have 4+. Any merc having 2 in willpower is already dead or about to be.

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "Enjoy your life, it's so short when you have a Dragon in front of you..." |
| |
| Aymeric RICHARD - Atreide on IRC E-Mail : arichard@****.ireste.fr |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Message no. 35
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 13:36:44 +0200
> Finally, someone who knows how to balance a game <G>

Well that does it, I am fed up with this all mage-players are munchkins
holier than thou attitude! I and other listmembers have given you every curtesy
and tried to make it clear that no one here has any bias toward street samurai.
And yet you insist on flaming everyone that does not share your hate of mages
and making impossible remarks about things you obviously know nothing about.
This list has always supported a very conservative attitude as far as
magic is concerned, we have always tried to enforce the "disadvantages" of
magic in order to make it more playable and not such a pain in the butt
of the other players. But Mr. Join-The-List-And-Flame-Em Knowitall here
always knows better.....

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 36
From: U-Gene <C14101@*******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:52:33 EDT
Bob Oaton writes:
>Quick question... how many GMs out there (players feel free to answere for
>your GM) apply lighting and cover modifiers to spells? They do have to see
>the target, right? Mirrored glass on buildings and vehicles poses another
>threat to casters.
>
>ah well...lets see how this one fares the list...

I apply cover and vision mods all the time. Otherwise Havoc, the party mage,
would be almost as tought as the rest of the team put together! I use
mirrored glass fairly often (what GM wants a helicopter full of Fuchi strike
team members crashing because the mage shot the pilot with a mana bolt?)
I do have a hard time limiting him because, well, he is a little bit of a
munchkin. But at least he has a good character concept, one of those few
times I'll stand for a powermonger is for a good character concept.
(1920 untouchables type gangster who's trademark are his white pin stripe
suits, in case you were interested)

Havoc: "Sheesh, that guy almost HURT me."
Bob : "Could you pick up my arm?"
Message no. 37
From: U-Gene <C14101@*******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:07:46 EDT
Paul Jonathan Adam writes:
> <<snip>> about rarity of betaware and price
>
>And if you're good enough to pull in the money for betaware, you have enough
>enemies you'll need it...

Ha-ha! Don't my players know it. <evil GM grin>

Billy: "You let him get away Bob!"
Kernal: "Just add him to the List."
Message no. 38
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 17:22:59 -0500
> Well that does it, I am fed up with this all mage-players are munchkins
>holier than thou attitude! I and other listmembers have given you every curtesy
>and tried to make it clear that no one here has any bias toward street samurai.
>And yet you insist on flaming everyone that does not share your hate of mages
>and making impossible remarks about things you obviously know nothing about.
> This list has always supported a very conservative attitude as far as
>magic is concerned, we have always tried to enforce the "disadvantages" of
>magic in order to make it more playable and not such a pain in the butt
>of the other players. But Mr. Join-The-List-And-Flame-Em Knowitall here
>always knows better.....

And I thought I was done posting about this... (sigh)

Look... I'm not anti-mage, I'm just pro-rules/equalization. There are only
two things keeping me from playing one (1, I know I have munchinous
tendencies, I made a mage and he was pretty damn unbelievable. 2, I know
that if I did play one, I'd consume the campaign (i.e. <me> "I do this!"
<other players> "OK, now where to?"). It might as well be solo, and to
me
there's very little fun in that.)

Also, you seem to be the only one who's lost it over this subject. Were I
REALLY wanting to make arguments, I'd have a field day with this post...

Have I flamed anyone? Not that I know of...

Do I always know better? No, that's why I asked questions...

(would give kudos to Jani for calming purposes, but settles for valium)

Sure, I like samurai more than mages. Samurai is what I play. If I played
a mage, I'd be bored...probably like if you played a samurai you'd be bored.
Am I biased towards samurai? As a player, most definitely...without any
doubt...YES! As a GM, not at all... I treat everyone equally as harsh.

Also (someone) mentioned that inexperienced players seem to grab the samurai
or are given them. The reason that I know of for that is the fact that
samurai require less in the way of knowledge of the game. I've seen newbies
with mages and it's not a pretty sight (it's taken us over 7 sessions and
we're still not through "One Stage Before" although half of this was done
after the newbie's mage got cashed and he made a samurai). They just have
to ask too many questions for the game to move along. Once they get
familiar with it, then all's cool. But getting there is hell itself. But
hey, we all have to learn somehow, right? I, personally would not suggest a
mage to a new player or one who wasn't going to really delve into the rules.



-- Bob Ooton
Hoping this thread will finally die out...
Message no. 39
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 19:40:45 GMT
Bob wrote-
> > Finally, someone who knows how to balance a game <G>

And Jani replied -
> Well that does it, I am fed up with this all mage-players are munchkins
> holier than thou attitude!
We said several times that mages were *easier* to munchkin: I pointed out
that I've had magical characters of my own come and retire. Bob was talking
about *balance*. I've seen samurai that would curl your hair - second-hand,
beta grade wired-II, for instance, on a starting character? We were offering a
countervailing view to someone whose posts seemed to imply all samurai are
alike and all are musclebound bozos :-)

> I and other listmembers have given you every curtesy and tried to make it
> clear that no one here has any bias toward street samurai.

Agreed, fine. There seems to be a slight bias against? (Ducks a hail of
laser-guided carp fillets).

> And yet you insist on flaming everyone that does not share your hate of mages
> and making impossible remarks about things you obviously know nothing about.

Jani, pop a Valium and sit down for a while, all right? I didn't see Bob
flame anyone. He's been polite, informed and said a great deal that he, I
and others agree on. There are *several* Mohicans out here :-) I've played
and GM'd Shadowrun since 1989, so I maybe know a *little* about it, and
Bob hasn't made any howlers. A few differences of opinion, sure, but isn't
that the point of lists like this?

> This list has always supported a very conservative attitude as far as
> magic is concerned, we have always tried to enforce the "disadvantages" of
> magic in order to make it more playable and not such a pain in the butt
> of the other players. But Mr. Join-The-List-And-Flame-Em Knowitall here
> always knows better.....

I haven't seen the list support any one attitude: if it did, it wouldn't be
as interesting. But to be told "your character is basically a pro footballer
with wired reflexes and big guns" is something of a sweeping generalisation
and I felt pressed to respond. Bob feels the same as I in many ways.

And if the game is so perfectly balanced, why is it necessary to "make it
more playable and not such a pain in the butt for other players" whenever
the magicians appear? :-)

One point I remember when I briefly tried AD&D: I chose a fighter because
I felt comfortable with the notion of being the big guy with the sword who
solved his problems by hitting them with something sharp. Nice and simple,
not too many rules and rolls while you're feeling out a system. So inexperienced
players may well drift into the "wires-and-guns" category, and roleplay in
the manner of novices: pick a movie stereotype and run with it.

So often you run into a street samurai who's a caricature from Hollywood. So
what? You have a novice player finding his or her feet in the game, hopefully
enjoying themselves, and learning the ropes. My first RPG character was the SR1
mercenary archetype, who I called Turner but everyone came to nickname "Bozo".
Bozo was fun to play, but my inexperience showed: he was a triggerhappy psycho
with no background or depth, and by the time I realised this was not conducive
to character survival it was too late to credibly change him.

So for two fun months Bozo danced the edge until his itchy trigger
finger finally got him into too much trouble to get away from. Lynch learned
from his mistakes: but Bozo did fit the description of street samurai that
Bob, I and others disagree with. He was the exception rather than the rule,
though, just as the munchkinous magical monstrosities some players foisted
on our game were rare compared to the well-rounded and well-played magicians.

(Stares intently around, nostrils twitching for the first warning whiff of the
incoming attack. Will it be searing napalm, or squelching carp?....)

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 40
From: Brent Fisher <tsmu@*****.LSA.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 19:56:42 -0400
On Wed, 5 Apr 1995, Paul Jonathan Adam wrote:

>
> (Stares intently around, nostrils twitching for the first warning whiff of the
> incoming attack. Will it be searing napalm, or squelching carp?....)
>

Nah, no fire or fish. You have made a very sound argument, and I for
one would like to second your prose.

Brent Fisher.
tsmu@*****.lsa.umich.edu
Message no. 41
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:03:19 +0200
>I would have said the complete opposite actually. Most every time magic is
>discussed on here, the eventual resolution is to crack down on magicians or
>the magic rules. Take the spell locks for example. When "spell locks in your
>mouth" came up, the solution wasn't "yeah, that'd be a grand idea", it
was
>"not fragging likely to work", followed by xxx reasons why not.

I remember one of the first things I posted on this list was about implanted
fetishes, because one of my players had just said to me "hey, that'd be an
idea for a cybered mage," and then people came up with things like "Then you
can just as well say 'my pelvis is my fetish' -- better make it reusable..."
It seems like many people want to make magicians less powerful when someone
comes up with an idea to make the game more interesting, and then when they
are actually gaming give magicians lots of advantages not available to
mundanes...

>but new cyberware for sammies rarely comes up.

Then we should get to thinking about that :) Anyone have any good cyberware
to post on the list?

>I do tend to notice that those who are not very good role-players usually go
>for the samurais in most of my games though. I don't know how representative
>this is though, since most others on here seem to indicate that the power
>gamers/munchkins go for the magicians in their games.

I'd advise a new player to play a samurai instead of a full-blown magician
(especially a shaman), simply because they're easier to roleplay... maybe
it's just because I used to play Fighters in **&* when I first started
RPing, but I always did find simple hack-and-shoot characters easier to get
into than those who rely on other skills.

>(it just means they are slow leaners :-)).

Do they jump in slow-motion too?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...the insects are huge and the poison's all been used...
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 42
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:32:14 BST
Gurth said :-
> Then we should get to thinking about that :) Anyone have any good cyberware
> to post on the list?

I got some bits of cyber, tech-toys and guns (natch), of course it's not in as
nice-a-format as the offical stuff or the bits you find out on the web, so
you'll have to wait a while while I tidy it up.

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
<By now probably regretting he offered to do that.>
Message no. 43
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 14:20:59 +0200
> Also, you seem to be the only one who's lost it over this subject. Were I
> REALLY wanting to make arguments, I'd have a field day with this post...

Go ahead make my day :)

> Have I flamed anyone? Not that I know of...

Excuse me, but I consider arugents like "mage players=munchkins" to be
one of the worst insults you can possinly use to flame someone on this list.

> Do I always know better? No, that's why I asked questions...

And yet you asked them in a patronising tone of voice that suggested
that you already knew what would come out. Calling someone a munchkin is
no simple thing. Flame wars have started over such an insult - ask thw
whistler.

I include here portions of a private exchange I had with Paul Jonathan Adam
the >ed stuff is me talking.

> [Really cool stuff about how saamies are cooler than mages]
>
> Let me explain myself I think that no one here believes that sammies are
> boring or less powerfull or less *insert favourite property* than mages
> (I certainly dont). A samie can be as intelligent, witty, beautifull,
> charming, wise as anyone else on the planet.
>
> Samies do not prevent roleplaying, on the contrary. Sammies as many
> others already pointed out rely on things that are already an integral part
> of our real life lives, things like technology, skills, themselves this makes
> them definitely easier to understand and as a consequence easier to play.
>
> Easier to play does not mean less enjoyable or lesser roleplaying potential
> it means easier to get into their mindset. Unfortunately this is what makes
> them interesting to players who are not interested in roleplaying but rather
> rollplaying - THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN WITH MAGES but
> a munchkin playing a mage would have to memorise the grimoire first ) and
> that is a slight deterant.

Sadly, in my experience (which certainly is different to yours) the munchkins
see all those extra rules as a way to get ahead, by finding chinks the GM
can't or doesn't have time to investigate.

> Anyway this is the reason why sammies have aquired the image of the
> cyber-monster that stuters things like "Out of the way meat!" :)
> However as many of you have already pointed out, sammies can have very complex
> backgrounds/characters and can be on the whole very enjoyable and well rounded
> characters to roleplay.

Agreed - see my post to the group where I tell you to cool down a little :-)

Samurai can be as one-dimensional and banal as any other characters - more so,
in fact, since they can easily become "Arnold Schwarzenwhatsit, yeah, but with
an even bigger gun..." You should have seen my first ever Shadowrun character:
as I said to the group, within two weeks his nickname was Bozo. I perhaps
didn't make that point early enough or clearly enough.

> OTOH mages have tons of rules about all sorts of weird things, this tends
> to make them more complex by default - THIS IS AS FAR AS THE RULES ARE
> CONCERNED, A MAGE CAN BE AS DUMM AND STRAIGHTFORWARD AS ANY RETARD. And these
> rules are the reason why we talk about magic all the time on the List.

Again, agreed at least in part: certainly the point we were arguing was that
roleplaying per se is independent of character class, and we appear to be
together on this one.

As for the mages-versus-the-world notion...well, at the risk of opening a can
of live bait, my personal opinion is that it is much easier to powergame
a magician than any other class, but it is just that - opinion - and *my* game
reflects that. On the other hand, magicians can be incredibly powerful in the
campaign I'm involved in...as long as they're interesting characters. Other
people play different ways. Again, the diversity is what makes groups like
SHADOWRN interesting. I don't demand or even want agreement and I don't want to
convert anyone to "my way" of playing Shadowrun: I just like listening to other
people's ideas and throwing out my own.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 44
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 20:10:37 -0500
>> Also, you seem to be the only one who's lost it over this subject. Were I
>> REALLY wanting to make arguments, I'd have a field day with this post...
>
> Go ahead make my day :)

When I say I really don't want to do something, I REALLY don't want to do
it. I had to put up with 3 years of some of the harshest flame wars around
(Play TSN/INN's Shadow of Yserbius and try to get into the sparring scene,
you'll see what I mean. Ask around to see if anyone remembers Lohengrin or
Foster while you're at it, both were excellent fighters (top 10 on a net of
some 80,000+) and both are me! As a member of two of the most obnoxious
guilds there (KAAOS & Wampirs), I had more than enough flame wars. Enough
to get me booted twice from the system.) and I don't particularly wish to
start doing that all over again. So take the advice others have posted and
take two valium and don't post me in the morning...

>> Have I flamed anyone? Not that I know of...
>
> Excuse me, but I consider arugents like "mage players=munchkins" to be
>one of the worst insults you can possinly use to flame someone on this list.

Wasn't an argument. Don't have the message where that was said either.
They (mage CHARACTERS) don't >have< to be munchkins, but they do lend
themselves ever so nicely to the prospect. If I wanted to powergame (which
I am sick of also as a damn near lifetime Champions player) I'd play a mage.

>> Do I always know better? No, that's why I asked questions...
>
> And yet you asked them in a patronising tone of voice that suggested
>that you already knew what would come out. Calling someone a munchkin is
>no simple thing. Flame wars have started over such an insult - ask thw
>whistler.

Did you throw a tantrum on him, too? And I'm wondering how you could hear
my voice coming thru those posts...I rarely if ever sound "patronizing"
<G>


[Jani rambles about posts with Paul]

Jani> Let me explain myself I think that no one here believes that sammies are
boring or less powerfull or less *insert favourite property* than mages
(I certainly dont). A samie can be as intelligent, witty, beautifull,
charming, wise as anyone else on the planet.
Samies do not prevent roleplaying, on the contrary. Sammies as many
others already pointed out rely on things that are already an integral part
of our real life lives, things like technology, skills, themselves this makes
them definitely easier to understand and as a consequence easier to play.
Easier to play does not mean less enjoyable or lesser roleplaying potential
it means easier to get into their mindset. Unfortunately this is what makes
them interesting to players who are not interested in roleplaying but rather
rollplaying - THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN WITH MAGES but
a munchkin playing a mage would have to memorise the grimoire first ) and
that is a slight deterant.

Bob>Rules aren't a deterrent for munchkins, it's their reason for being!
Can't properly munchkin without knowing the rules.

Paul>Sadly, in my experience (which certainly is different to yours) the
munchkins
see all those extra rules as a way to get ahead, by finding chinks the GM
can't or doesn't have time to investigate.

Bob>The first and only commandment of munchkinism, knoweth thy rules and
exploit them for every bonus they're worth.

Jani> Anyway this is the reason why sammies have aquired the image of the
cyber-monster that stuters things like "Out of the way meat!" :)
However as many of you have already pointed out, sammies can have very complex
backgrounds/characters and can be on the whole very enjoyable and well rounded
characters to roleplay.

Paul>Agreed - see my post to the group where I tell you to cool down a
little :-)

Bob>And mine as well... (very similar posts, btw...)

Paul>As for the mages-versus-the-world notion...well, at the risk of opening
a can
of live bait, my personal opinion is that it is much easier to powergame
a magician than any other class, but it is just that - opinion - and *my* game
reflects that. On the other hand, magicians can be incredibly powerful in the
campaign I'm involved in...as long as they're interesting characters. Other
people play different ways. Again, the diversity is what makes groups like
SHADOWRN interesting. I don't demand or even want agreement and I don't want to
convert anyone to "my way" of playing Shadowrun: I just like listening to other
people's ideas and throwing out my own.

Bob>Of course it's easier to powergame/munchkin as a mage! Rules reflect
that as well as anyone's opinion. Reason being that they're malleable
enough to be able to apply them to anything. Paul's ideas seem to be pretty
much on par with mine (i.e. life is equally hard for all runners...make
mistakes and you'll pay for 'em). Have I demanded agreement? Nope...just
asked a lot of questions. And as I said in another post, MOST of the
players/gamemasters here have proved me to have the wrong suspicions. A lot
of good ideas for game-balance were brought out by this and I appreciate
every one. Thanks for those of you who kept this one on track...you know
who you are.



-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 45
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:38:51 +0000
On Apr 6, 10:32am, P Ward wrote:
> I got some bits of cyber, tech-toys and guns (natch), of course it's not in
as
> nice-a-format as the offical stuff or the bits you find out on the web, so
> you'll have to wait a while while I tidy it up.
>
> Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
> <By now probably regretting he offered to do that.>

Yes! Sure! Format it in html! Add pictures! Diagrams! Expert software to track
your warez! Write an introduction! Sell it on the web!

(still regretting? :)


--
________________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci ICBM: 45:38:12N 13:46:36E 95h
e-mail: marcucci@***.ts.astro.it
www: http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci/home.html
"Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" - Gareth Owen :)
Message no. 46
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:25:43 BST
Damion cried :-

> Yes! Sure! Format it in html! Add pictures! Diagrams! Expert software to track
> your warez! Write an introduction! Sell it on the web!

Oh bugger! I knew this was a bad idea, how bout I post it and you all
do what you want with it?

Phil (Runs-Away-From-Html)
Message no. 47
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 1995 02:04:04 +1000
P Ward writes:

> Damion cried :-
>
> > Yes! Sure! Format it in html! Add pictures! Diagrams! Expert software to
> > track your warez! Write an introduction! Sell it on the web!
>
> Oh bugger! I knew this was a bad idea, how bout I post it and you all
> do what you want with it?

Good idea. But note it was Paolo, not me "who cried" :-)

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 48
From: FireFly <mskarina@*****.MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 1995 18:11:52 +0300
>I, personally would not suggest a
> mage to a new player or one who wasn't going to really delve into the rules.
>

Hehe :)
So, what AM I going to do!?
I'm a new player...
Playing a mage...
and I don't even have a rule book..!
*Bewildered grin*

But ----

>But hey, we all have to learn somehow, right?

Right.

- FireFly -
Message no. 49
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic or Tech...
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 11:18:48 +0200
>Hehe :)
>So, what AM I going to do!?
>I'm a new player...
>Playing a mage...
>and I don't even have a rule book..!
>*Bewildered grin*
>
>But ----

But ---- you insisted on playing a magician :) You said something close to
"I'd like an elven sorceress, if that's allowed." So, I gave you an elven
sorceress :) BTW, I deliberately made you an adept instead of a full
magician to make it easier for you -- no astral perception, conjuring, and
what have you...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)

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Thwap!