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Message no. 1
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Magic&Tech
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 08:48:05 -0500
"so Nightstalker and I won't have any arguments over tec/magic". ..
(OK, so I paraphrased)

Don't worry. I think Nightstalker got Flare Compensation.

J Roberson
Message no. 2
From: Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic/Tech
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 12:36:37 +6000
Bob Ooton writes :

>> I am rough on Street Sams because they don't have much to lose besides their
>> life. Hell, once you're cybered to the teeth, you're cybered to the teeth.
>
> Are you? there's always upgrades to get, bioware, etc. Karma may come
> easy, but try paying off a street doc bill for beta-grade 'ware.

This means street sams have tend to have more karma for those none-combat
skills, something my shaman would love to be able to spend more karma on.
as well as the best firearms our sam and former company-man have the best
ettiquettes, negotiations, demolitions skills etc..
Since you need a well balanced team in combat and other fields arguing
which is best is pointless,


>> Mages always have to spend karma on anything from spells to suppositories and
>> tend to run away from anything that looks like a gun. Sams also have a bad
>> habit of moving in the late twenties or thrities. Remember: Bad guys notice
>> who shot at them first. Bad guys also tend to think the guy with the
>> gyro-mounted vindicator is much more threatening than the mage who's moving
>> with 2d6.
>
> How many mages are out there running 2D6?? I know of a couple, but they're
> major newbies who didn't know to take the increase reflexes at 3. I would
> be willing to bet that nearly everyone here has mages quickened or locked to
> (reaction) +4D6.

Mine for starters, and it hasn't been too great a problem, speed is not
top in our game. Speed comes after stealth big deal if you have 3 actions
if you don't know I'm coming :)

Phil
<Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Message no. 3
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic/Tech
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:37:06 +0200
> Mine for starters, and it hasn't been too great a problem, speed is not
> top in our game. Speed comes after stealth big deal if you have 3 actions
> if you don't know I'm coming :)

Well there is always supression fire :) and a litle paranoia can get you
a long way ....

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 4
From: Philip Hayward <Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic/Tech
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:17:17 +6000
Jani Fikouras writes:
>> Mine for starters, and it hasn't been too great a problem, speed is not
>> top in our game. Speed comes after stealth, big deal if you have
>> 3 actions if you don't know I'm coming :)
>
> Well there is always supression fire :) and a litle paranoia can get you
> a long way ....

But a lot of paranoia can help you get nowhere fast. Except to have
empty magazines and lead lined walls :)

Hence my cat-shamans favourite spells:
(chaos/chaotic world, invisibility all for that extra touch of confusion :)
Illusion spells are by far the best (lower drain to boot)

Paranoia is only when you _think_ everyone is out to get you
some people _know_ everyone is out to get them

Phil
<Philip.Hayward@***.UK>
Message no. 5
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic/Tech
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 17:01:18 -0500
> Mine for starters, and it hasn't been too great a problem, speed is not
> top in our game. Speed comes after stealth big deal if you have 3 actions
> if you don't know I'm coming :)

<samurai>"Did you see that sniper bullet coming from about a mile east of
us?"

<shaman>"Nope, but I did see our mage glowing away on the astral while he
was casting invisibliity"

<samurai>"Well, I cleaned up the last one..."

Just a little illustration of how those wondrous spells can look on the
astral plane. Watcher spirits (so commonly used by PC's, yet strangely
never around for the opposition) make damn fine forward observers <G>

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 6
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic/Tech
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:11:19 +0200
> > Well there is always supression fire :) and a litle paranoia can get you
> > a long way ....
>
> But a lot of paranoia can help you get nowhere fast. Except to have
> empty magazines and lead lined walls :)

This is true, however the shadows make me sometimes wonder if its
at possible to be too paranoid :)

> Hence my cat-shamans favourite spells:
> (chaos/chaotic world, invisibility all for that extra touch of confusion :)
> Illusion spells are by far the best (lower drain to boot)

I fully agree, Illusions absolutely rule BTW I have a pretty funny story
about a pretty cool illusion and the highest TN our other GM ever managed to
beat :) We broke into this apartment when the cops started pouring in -
I was sweating my ass off sustaining 4 invisibility spells :) when I
decided to do something about (a good offence is thebest defence after all)
so I used my nifty all-purpose illusion spell to create a rather large
explosion outside the building near the cops cars :) If I remember correctly
I got about 12 successes (after droping the illusions that is) that meant
that the copps had to top a TN of 24 .... and guess what one of them
managed to see through it *AAARGH!!!* I have never seen so many sixes :)
It goes to show that its better to be lucky than to be good ...

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
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Message no. 7
From: Schreiner Thomas <schreini@**********.FH-AUGSBURG.DE>
Subject: Magic & Tech
Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 13:46:59 +0200
If a mage casts a heal/treat spell on a samurai who is higly equiped with
Cyberware he gets a target 10 / 8 minus Essence.

Shouldn't be the same rules used casting any other spells on such
samurais?


--

"C" - is a write only language

schreini@**********.fh-augsburg.de
Message no. 8
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 05:29:53 -0700
>Shouldn't be the same rules used casting any other spells on such
>samurais?

As per the rules, no. As is pretty apparent in the rulebook.

As far as -should-, in -logically- and such, well, -I've- always thought
so, but I don't play it that way, nor does anyone I know. But then, as
I've said before, I'm a little bit biased against magic in SR. (Ever
since that Banshee incident...)

-E
Message no. 9
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 17:37:05 -0500
>>Shouldn't be the same rules used casting any other spells on such
>>samurais?

>As per the rules, no. As is pretty apparent in the rulebook.

>As far as -should-, in -logically- and such, well, -I've- always thought
>so, but I don't play it that way, nor does anyone I know. But then, as
>I've said before, I'm a little bit biased against magic in SR. (Ever
>since that Banshee incident...)

As a Mohican/Street Samurai I'd have to agree with the view that all spells
should be hard to cast on samurai, not just healing. It just makes sense
that way. Per rules it's a nil, though. Interesting question...

Of course, I'm sure there's other views out there, so I'll wait out the
storm and reply from there ;^D


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 11:23:40 +0200
>If a mage casts a heal/treat spell on a samurai who is higly equiped with
>Cyberware he gets a target 10 / 8 minus Essence.
>
>Shouldn't be the same rules used casting any other spells on such
>samurais?

That's a game balance issue, IMHO. If you'd do a similar thing with other
spells, either the mage's TNs would drop so low he fries every uncybered
body, or they go so high that people with lots of cyber are virtually immune
to magic. Neither is really acceptable, is it?
Like, if you say "substract the target's Essence from the TN," you'll end up
with (Body-Essence) for Combat spells. Let's take Joe and Jane as targets --
Joe has no cyber at all (Essence 6), and a Body of 5. Jane also has a Body
of 5, but has an Essence of 0.3. The TN to hit Joe would then be -1, going
up to 2 because that's the lowest possible TN; to hit Jane it would be 5.
Joe buys it even with very low-Force spells, Jane doesn't. It gets worse if
you add, say, 6-Essence to the TN: Hitting Joe requires a 5, but hitting
Jane means rolling 11...

I'd say keep it as it is, it works out pretty well. The healing bit also
works good because you can explain it by saying that cyber interferes with
attempts to heal the body simply because it itself modifies the target's
body/aura. If anything, cybered would be more susceptible to damaging magic
than others, IMHO.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm not into DIY, I'm into YDI.
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 11
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 19:43:19 +1000
Bob Ooton writes:

> As a Mohican/Street Samurai I'd have to agree with the view that all spells
> should be hard to cast on samurai, not just healing. It just makes sense
> that way. Per rules it's a nil, though. Interesting question...

Alternatively (my view) all spells should be equally easy to cast on a
cybered guy. He paid Essense for the cyber, so it is fully and completely
integrated into his aura.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 12
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:49:27 -0500
>Alternatively (my view) all spells should be equally easy to cast on a
>cybered guy. He paid Essense for the cyber, so it is fully and completely
>integrated into his aura.

But cyber has no aura...

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 13
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 13:08:29 -0400
> >Alternatively (my view) all spells should be equally easy to cast on a
> >cybered guy. He paid Essense for the cyber, so it is fully and completely
> >integrated into his aura.
>
> But cyber has no aura...

Outside of a body it has the aura of a dead thing. However, when put into
someone, it changes. You cannot specifically ID cyberware by the way it
looks. If it didn't change from the time of implantation, you would be
able to say, well, this guy's got a datajack, a cyberleg, a cyberarm,
spurs in both, and a metal tailbone. It just doesn't work that way.


Matt 'Comatose Raspberry' Hufstetler
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt2778a
Internet: gt2778a@*****.gatech.edu
Message no. 14
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:02:07 -0700
>>Alternatively (my view) all spells should be
>> equally easy to cast on a cybered guy. He
>> paid Essence for the cyber, so it is fully and
>> completely integrated into his aura.
>
>Bob replies:
>But cyber has no aura...

It has an aura just not much of one.
But I see your point. If you decided to play in
this manner you would have to restructure the
way a spell does damage.
Several things would have to happen.

1) physical spells would do alot less damage to
cybered individuals (or targets # for mages would
have to be increased to a object resistance test
for the complex computerized cyberware parts.
** BUT ** when a spell does damage it's going to
damage cyber - making taking damage alot more
expensive to a cybered individual - damage to
cyber would occur on a regular basis not when
deadly damage is taken. not to mention you
would have to come up with some sort of damage
vs. function
i.e. damage to wired reflexes:
L 95% of speed bonus
M 75% of speed bonus
S 50% of speed bonus
D no longer functioning

OUCH... so i think the generalization of damage
to cyberware is in your advantage.
damage of cyberware can be fixed with money
loss of magic can be fixed by initiation (till 0)
kind of fits with cyber psychosis...

2) mana spells would do more damage than
they currently are because there is less essence
of you there to damage so when you do take
mana damage it's going to be alot more
detrimental.

again these are just opinions.
Message no. 15
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 14:53:14 -0400
>>>>> "Bob" == Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET> writes:

Bob> But cyber has no aura...

Cyber does have an aura, else you wouldn't be able to cast Increased
Cybered Foo spells. It's there, it's just very, very weak.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Message no. 16
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 16:38:01 -0500
>> >Alternatively (my view) all spells should be equally easy to cast on a
>> >cybered guy. He paid Essense for the cyber, so it is fully and completely
>> >integrated into his aura.
>>
>> But cyber has no aura...
>
>Outside of a body it has the aura of a dead thing. However, when put into
>someone, it changes. You cannot specifically ID cyberware by the way it
>looks. If it didn't change from the time of implantation, you would be
>able to say, well, this guy's got a datajack, a cyberleg, a cyberarm,
>spurs in both, and a metal tailbone. It just doesn't work that way.

No, it just shows up blank. Blank. No aura to speak of. Now that you
mention it, wasn;t there some kinda rule that allowed mages to tell at least
SOMETHING about cyberware due to the lack of aura?

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 17
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 17:06:54 -0500
More interesting info on cyber and magic.

Under the description of Physical Spells in the SRII rulebook (pg 127), it
states that "Only physical spells can affect inanimate objectssuchs as
walls, rocks, and the like." Furthermore it states that "Objects made of
certain materials are far more resistant to magical effects." On the Object
resistance table (pg 130) it states that advanced plastics, alloys,
electronic equipment has a target number of 8 to be affected. Computers
have a 10.

Is this why Heal doesn't work well on cybered folk? And if that is the
answer, then any physical spell would be subject to the same rules.

Also, under Mana Spells (pg 127) it states that "Mana spells cannot affect
inanimate objects on any level." Thus, it could be said that mana spells
will never cause cyberware damage, correct? "Mana spells affect the
intangible elements of a target, such as the spirit or emotions." Cyberware
is as tangible as anything can be. Interesting.

The other viewpoint brought up here was that since there is less essence,
what little is left becomes more important and would be damaged further by a
mana-style attack. To which I say that cyberware would act as a sort of
cover against mana spells. It would protect the meat from damage simply
because it exists and the magic couldn't go through it.. And the essence
left is no more important than it was before cyberware was installed. It's
just what's left. You have 10 nuyen, you spend five, you've got five left.
That five isn't going to buy any more than five nuyen's worth of stuff. It
isn't any more important, it's just what's left.

Rat brought up the subject of "Increase Cybered (whatever)" spells. You can
look at these spells as actually enhancing the technology (which doesn't
seem right) or you can look at them as if they make the meat parts more able
to withstand the full use of the cyberware. Thus enabling greater
performance. Seems very plausible to me. After all, no body is going to
much like moving at @***** for any length of time and the meat will keep the
cyber from doing that. What if the meat parts were stronger and could
handle more effort? Then the cyberware could reach it's peak performance level.

I like this discussion a lot, in case you couldn't tell. I'm not really
sure which side is more right. But for the purpose of argument, I will take
up the flag for the cyber-side (big surprise, huh?).


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 18
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 15:08:44 -0700
>>> >Alternatively (my view) all spells should
>>> >be equally easy to cast on a
>>> >cybered guy. He paid Essence for the cyber,
>>> >so it is fully and completely
>>> >integrated into his aura.
>>>
>>> But cyber has no aura...
>>
>>Outside of a body it has the aura of a dead thing.
>>However, when put into someone, it changes.
>>You cannot specifically ID cyberware by the way it
>>looks. If it didn't change from the time of implantation,
>>you would be able to say, well, this guy's got a
>>datajack, a cyberleg, a cyberarm, spurs in both,
>>and a metal tailbone. It just doesn't work that way.
>
>Bob writes:
>No, it just shows up blank. Blank. No aura to speak
>of. Now that you mention it, wasn't there some kinda
>rule that allowed mages to tell at least SOMETHING
>about cyberware due to the lack of aura?

Gary replies:
I disagree Everything has an aura even it it is nearing
infinitesimal. "They have even stated that a
Nega-Mage has an aura", But think about it. The
parts of the body that are cyber will look more
transparent but that only because it's not living.
(you can get an aura reading off a notebook someone
recently carried) so why couldn't you get a reading
off the cyber arm someone has.
i.e. - aura reading from a samurai's cyberarm:
TN# I use object resistance test: complex:
TN# 12 (I think)
so if the mage manages to get 2 successes (general)
* you get an adrenalin rush as you see yourself
blasting away at some street punks * - could mean
he has a cyber gun or just that he has smartgun link
in the hand... * you then see yourself lifting a punk
off the ground and throwing him several feet* -
maybe enhanced strength

no successes - maybe you feel the morning of your
lost arm...

But honestly it's up to the GM. You could play that
if you had cybertechnology that you could determine
what might be in the nearly invisible spot.

Thanks Gary C.
Message no. 19
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 15:55:34 -0700
>Bob writes:
>Under the description of Physical Spells in the
>SRII rulebook (pg 127), it states that "Only physical
>spells can affect inanimate objectssuchs as walls,
>rocks, and the like." Furthermore it states that "Objects
>made of certain materials are far more resistant to
>magical effects." On the Object resistance table (pg 130)
>it states that advanced plastics, alloys,electronic
>equipment has a target number of 8 to be affected.
>Computers have a 10.

Agreed (again I think FASA was trying to generalize
so you wouldn't have to go into the kind of damage
you took to cyber during combat. which is why it is the
way it is.) (see my last post on this subject for an example)

>Is this why Heal doesn't work well on cybered folk?
>And if that is the answer, then any physical spell
>would be subject to the same rules.
YEP...

>Also, under Mana Spells (pg 127) it states that
>"Mana spells cannot affect inanimate objects on
>any level." Thus, it could be said that mana spells
>will never cause cyberware damage, correct? "Mana
>spells affect the intangible elements of a target,
>such as the spirit or emotions." Cyberware
>is as tangible as anything can be. Interesting.

Correct but that doesn't mean it won't fry all your
neural connection to the cyberware. in
essence ("good choice of words") making it worse
than doing damage to the cyber. "another simple
generalization on damage is damage... *shrug*

>The other viewpoint brought up here was that since
>there is less essence, what little is left becomes more
>important and would be damaged further by a
>mana-style attack. To which I say that cyberware
>would act as a sort of cover against mana spells.

*If your looking astral (perceving) you would see right to
the remaining essence (because cyber is nearly invisible)
and since you can attact what you can see - wouldn't
it go straight to the sorce...

<some cut>

It's still the GMs world - if magic is less powerfull in your
world - it's less powerfull. People will still play magicians
because it's so versitle.

Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 20
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 18:05:23 -0500
>Correct but that doesn't mean it won't fry all your
>neural connection to the cyberware. in
>essence ("good choice of words") making it worse
>than doing damage to the cyber. "another simple
>generalization on damage is damage... *shrug*

Hmmm... possibly, but more dice work than anyone would be wanting to work
with except a hardcore dicemonster (besides there are very clearcut rules on
cyberware damage, unlike the rules that make healing less effective on the
essence-challenged). You seem to be taking the "cyber should have to take
more damage than it does now" approach. It does take damage, but the
attack must be of a certain level for that to happen. If it reaches that
level, it will happen. If not, then it doesn't. A weak little manadart
won't do much, whereas a manabolt will certainly do damage. This is
assuming that the rolls are successful in the first place (and I am
presenting the "rolls should be harder vs. cyber" argument, after all).

>*If your looking astral (perceving) you would see right to
>the remaining essence (because cyber is nearly invisible)
>and since you can attact what you can see - wouldn't
>it go straight to the sorce...

No, because you don't perceive through other such barriers, why would
cyberware be different? You simply percieve what little "meat" is visible.
Dermal would be wonderful for protecting like that. Once again, oodles of
dicework and calculating. Not the the weak of attention span.

Another little bit on the auralessness of cyberware. It's not that it
doesn't have an astral presence, it's just that it doesn't have an aura.
Cold, black, lifeless. No aura, but it does have presence (walls have
presence but no aura, same with most unnatural things).


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 21
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 11:44:16 +0200
> >Alternatively (my view) all spells should be equally easy to cast on a
> >cybered guy. He paid Essense for the cyber, so it is fully and completely
> >integrated into his aura.
>
> But cyber has no aura...

True, but that doesnt mean that the person has no aura. All living things
have auras - no aura means you're dead - cyberdudes just have a different kind
of aura.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

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M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 12:05:45 +0200
>>Alternatively (my view) all spells should be equally easy to cast on a
>>cybered guy. He paid Essense for the cyber, so it is fully and completely
>>integrated into his aura.
>
>But cyber has no aura...

But it is integrated into the aura. You can't tell what pieces of cyberware
someone has just by assensing him -- you might notice that his arm is of a
slightly different color that the rest of him, but that doesn't necessarily
mean he's got a cyberarm. The arm still has an aura, even if it's completely
made of metal.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What's next?
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Message no. 23
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 12:36:14 +0200
>
> More interesting info on cyber and magic.
>
> Under the description of Physical Spells in the SRII rulebook (pg 127), it
> states that "Only physical spells can affect inanimate objectssuchs as
> walls, rocks, and the like." Furthermore it states that "Objects made of
> certain materials are far more resistant to magical effects." On the Object
> resistance table (pg 130) it states that advanced plastics, alloys,
> electronic equipment has a target number of 8 to be affected. Computers
> have a 10.

So you consider sammies to be "inanimate objectssuchs as walls, rocks,
and the like" :) Cyberware may be harder to hit as its not alive, but
a cybered person is still a person and spells can surely damge him.
Heal spells are a different thing because they try to restablish the
physical integrity of the target, and cyberware is not part of the
physical body as far as magic is concerned so a magician has to work
a lot harder to bend the magic to his will to achieve an acceptable
result.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 24
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 16:32:02 -0500
> So you consider sammies to be "inanimate objectssuchs as walls, rocks,
>and the like" :) Cyberware may be harder to hit as its not alive, but
>a cybered person is still a person and spells can surely damge him.

I consider cyberware inanimate.. I'd be freaked out if my cyberarm suddenly
started choking me because I had bashed it against something and it decided
that revenge would be good. Cyberware is in effect a tool. Not animate in
any way. SO it'd be harder than hell to damage magically.

> Heal spells are a different thing because they try to restablish the
>physical integrity of the target, and cyberware is not part of the
>physical body as far as magic is concerned so a magician has to work
>a lot harder to bend the magic to his will to achieve an acceptable
>result.

By the same token, all spells need to alter the target in one wya or
another. So it could easily be said that the same rules for healing cyber
would apply to other spells affecting cyber. Tough to win an argument
without making a case for the other side in this one...


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Wondering where the rest of the Mohicans are hiding out at in my time of need...
Message no. 25
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 15:07:25 -0700
I agree; if magic has trouble healing cyber, it should have trouble
affecting cyber in other ways. You can make excellent points for this,
and I have always felt that cyber should be tougher to affect with
magic.
But unfortunately, the rules state otherwise. And that's pretty
much it. Best advice is, if you feel cyber should be hard to affect with
magic, then "make it so" in your game. But it's going to be hard to
convince SR purists ("if you change the rules then don't call it SR") and
people who like having mages be the baddest buttkickers on the block.

-E
Message no. 26
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 15:35:01 -0700
>Eve wrote:
>I agree; if magic has trouble healing cyber,
>it should have trouble affecting cyber in other
>ways. You can make excellent points for this,
>and I have always felt that cyber should be
>tougher to affect with magic.
> But unfortunately, the rules state otherwise.
>And that's pretty much it. Best advice is, if you
>feel cyber should be hard to affect with magic,
>then "make it so" in your game. But it's going to
>be hard to convince SR purists ("if you change
>the rules then don't call it SR") and people who
>like having mages be the baddest buttkickers
>on the block.

I also agree...
But this also means that you open yourself up to
a different range/style of attack.
i.e. - Spells like Ram & Wrecker could now be
designed. (still toughter target #s) but designed
for barrier/armored type applications

This would also mean that someone walking
around in Full armor / Military armor would
also be harder to affect with mana and physical
spells.

Thanks Gary.
Message no. 27
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 17:37:14 -0700
Gary writes:

> someone walking around in Full armor/ Military armor
>would also be harder to affect with mana and physical
>spells.

Hmm, the way I saw it was: Cyber makes you loose essence, which makes
it harder for mages to cast spells on YOU, not on what you're
wearing. Magic is a natural force; the more "unnatural" you are, the
harder it is to affect you. Physical spells might still work the same;
a ball of fire is a ball of fire, whether it comes from a mage or from
a gas explosion. And wearing armor isn't going to help you if you're
Joe Uncybered in there, and your aura is as pure as the day you were
born. But transformations, illusions, mana spells, etc; those should
be harder to "sync" with someone who's more machine than man.

-E
Message no. 28
From: Joan Sheehan <shee4766@******.IDBSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 08:24:38 +0200
In article <199505120944.LAA12207@****.informatik.uni-Bremen.de> Jani Fikouras
<feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE> writes:
>Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 11:44:16 +0200
>Reply-To: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun
<SHADOWRN@*****.nic.SURFnet.nl>
>From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
>Subject: Re: Magic & Tech

>> >Alternatively (my view) all spells should be equally easy to cast on a
>> >cybered guy. He paid Essense for the cyber, so it is fully and completely
>> >integrated into his aura.
>>
>> But cyber has no aura...

> True, but that doesnt mean that the person has no aura. All living things
>have auras - no aura means you're dead - cyberdudes just have a different kind
>of aura.

"Believe in Angels."
-- The Crow

>GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
> M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?

When you put this theory into practice just remember that you will have to
change the rules on how spells effect vehicles. i.e. lower target #'s You
will also have very tough Street Sams due to the fact that they can just use
the mage as back up healer...and you will have to change the fact that mages
and cyberware would be more compatable. i.e. magic rating(due to the essence)
sounds kinda tricky?

Mamoulian
Message no. 29
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 22:09:12 +1000
Bob Ooton writes:

> [Physical spells have difficulty affecting cybered folk]
>
> Is this why Heal doesn't work well on cybered folk? And if that is the
> answer, then any physical spell would be subject to the same rules.

Nope, 'cause Treat and Heal are Mana spells <grin>. But as to the argument
for physical spells in general, I still say that the fact that the cyberguy
has the 'ware integrated into himself (since he paid Essense for it) means
that he is affected just the same by Physical spells as any other person. If
this were not the case, then we'd need shocking game mechanics for it, which
I feel is not a good idea. I think the same argument which allows magicians
to use, say, cybereyes for casting spells, will allow magic to affect
anything the target paid Essense for as if it were affecting the "natural"
target.

> Also, under Mana Spells (pg 127) it states that "Mana spells cannot affect
> inanimate objects on any level." Thus, it could be said that mana spells
> will never cause cyberware damage, correct? "Mana spells affect the
> intangible elements of a target, such as the spirit or emotions." Cyberware
> is as tangible as anything can be. Interesting.

I feel Mana spells apply equally to the argument I made above. He paid
Essense, therefore he should be treated no different. The Essense paid
allows the inanimate object to become a true part of the user, so it can be
affected by spells which affect the user's Mana side. Something the user did
not pay Essense for, such as the remote cameras of a drone, cannot be
targeted as part of the user (just like a magician cannot cast spells
through a technological device he has not paid Essense for).

> The other viewpoint brought up here was that since there is less essence,
> what little is left becomes more important and would be damaged further by
> a mana-style attack...And the essence left is no more important than it was
> before cyberware was installed. It's just what's left. You have 10 nuyen,
> you spend five, you've got five left. That five isn't going to buy any more
> than five nuyen's worth of stuff. It isn't any more important, it's just
> what's left.

The latter part I agree with, the Essense of the target makes no difference
to the ability of magic to affect him. There is no "more severe damage from
Mana spells due to less Essense", nor is there any "cyberware dampening
effect to counter this", just like there is no "difficulty in casting spells
on cyberguys."

"Hold on," you say, "what about Increase Cybered Attribute spells, and
Heal/Treat spells? They _are_ more difficult to cast on cybernuts". Yep, by
the rules, Health spells are based on Essense. But I know not why. To me it
should be just as simple to cast a spell on a cyberloser as it is on a non
cyberloser. Treat spells should, in my view, have a base TN of 2, regardless
of the Essense of the target, and Increase Attribute spells should affect
the cybered and non cybered alike, with no difference in drain (obviously the
difficulty of casting the spell will vary with the Attribute, which will
mean it is generally harder to enhance a cybered attribute than a
non-cybered one because it's higher, but hey, that's the way it works).
Unless, of course, someone can give a reasonable explanation as to why it
should be more dificult to cast Health, and only Health, spells on
cyberguys...

> I like this discussion a lot, in case you couldn't tell. I'm not really
> sure which side is more right. But for the purpose of argument, I will take
> up the flag for the cyber-side (big surprise, huh?).

So which side am I taking? Neither or both by your definition... <grin>

> No, because you don't perceive through other such barriers, why would
> cyberware be different? You simply percieve what little "meat" is visible.
> Dermal would be wonderful for protecting like that. Once again, oodles of
> dicework and calculating. Not the the weak of attention span.

Cyberware would be different because the user has paid Essense for it. You
cannot target a particular piece of cyberware a person has. You must target
their entire aura. The cyberware is integrated into their aura, so you
cannot perceive it as individually different. You may perceive a difference
in the aura of the person who has cyberware, but you can't tell which parts
of them are cybered, just that they have cyber (assuming you are good enough
at reading auras of course).

> Another little bit on the auralessness of cyberware. It's not that it
> doesn't have an astral presence, it's just that it doesn't have an aura.
> Cold, black, lifeless. No aura, but it does have presence (walls have
> presence but no aura, same with most unnatural things).

Cybeware _does_ have an aura. EVERYTHING has an aura, cyberware is no
different. There is no difference between your prescribed "presence" and an
aura. Cyberware which is not in someone's body will have an aura about
equivalent ot a wall or a computer (ie not much of an aura at all). Once
they pay Essense for it though, things get different. It then becomes part
of _their_ aura, and no longer has an aura of it's own (so you can't make a
spell to target the cyberarm itself, you'll have to make a spell to target
the person, and then use Terry's logic to have it affect the cyberarm).

> I consider cyberware inanimate.. I'd be freaked out if my cyberarm suddenly
> started choking me because I had bashed it against something and it decided
> that revenge would be good. Cyberware is in effect a tool. Not animate in
> any way. SO it'd be harder than hell to damage magically.

Yep. A cyberarm lying on a bench would be giving a magician TN's of about 10
to affect it. One integrated into a person however, becomes _the_person_,
and is affected through the persons aura, not it's own (it no longer has an
aura of its own, since the person has integrated it into their own aura by
paying Essense for it).

---------------------
Jani Fikouras writes:

> Heal spells are a different thing because they try to restablish the
> physical integrity of the target, and cyberware is not part of the
> physical body as far as magic is concerned so a magician has to work
> a lot harder to bend the magic to his will to achieve an acceptable
> result.

If this were the case, then a magician would have to work a lot harder to
achieve the desired result for a Power Bolt too. It is not the case. I do
not think this is reasonable explanation as to why Health spells and only
Health spells are more difficult to cast on cybered types.

-------------------
Eve Forward writes:

> Physical spells might still work the same; a ball of fire is a ball of
> fire, whether it comes from a mage or from a gas explosion.

I assume you really meant Damaging Manipulation spells there, not Physical
spells. Physical spells still interact with the target's aura, DM's create
the "ball of flame".

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 30
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 05:31:39 -0700
Damion writes:
> I assume you really meant (etc)

What the *fvck* ever. I don't play mages and I don't keep up on all the
myriad rules about them. My point still stands.

-E
Message no. 31
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 13:50:16 BST
Coupla a things, since I've been away for a while.

I) The type of Cyber can be recognised in general terms,
see i) NAGA
ii) Burning Bright, Tom Dowd wrote it, and the main character
Id'd one of the KE boys cyber 'in general terms'

I think you'd be able to ID roughly which parts of the body the cyber
was in;
his arm has a muted aura - cyberlimb
he has 'dead areas' in his arm, connected up to his brain
- maybe a smartlink or spurs.

II) once you've 'paid' essence for Cyber, it's part of your aura.
See; the fix to allow mages to cast through cybereyes


III) Magical Healing finds cybered individuals harder to repair
because of the way the healing works;
it tries to get your body back the way it 'normally'
is. ie. the way you were born (but bigger, I know)
If you have a great big chunk of metal where your
heart used to be, then it's going to be hard for all
the veins and stuff (I'm not a med-student, funnily
enough) to connect to the fleshy valves ( :-0) the
magic is trying to get them to connect to.

If you wanted no penalty for cyber, then try getting a
Heal Cybered indiviudal spell, but be prepared to bend the
rules out of all recognition


Cybered individuals are harder to affect than others, in
the area of health spells, all the rest affect people in a
different way than 'moving' their internal parts around.
Combat spells pump energy from the astral into the aura,
and thence into the body, illusions affect the mind (or
produce 'real' physical affects that do), manipulations
produce 'real' physical effects, etc. Only Health spells
actually move your 'bits' round on the inside.

Phil {Renegade, enjoying her new brackets ;-) }
Message no. 32
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 15:03:19 +0200
> > So you consider sammies to be "inanimate objectssuchs as walls, rocks,
> >and the like" :) Cyberware may be harder to hit as its not alive, but
> >a cybered person is still a person and spells can surely damge him.
>
> I consider cyberware inanimate.. I'd be freaked out if my cyberarm suddenly
> started choking me because I had bashed it against something and it decided
> that revenge would be good. Cyberware is in effect a tool. Not animate in
> any way. SO it'd be harder than hell to damage magically.

No one said that this aint true, that is however not the point. When
a magician casts a mana spell on a cybered to the teeth sammie he damages
the sammies aura, whereas the cyberware stays intact. Damaging manipulations
and elemental effects damage cyberware because the directly affect the
physical plane (thats why targets use body+armor ro resist).

What I am trying to say is that sammies as all living beings have
auras and thusly can get hit by mana spells, they 'ware however
stays intact. Physical spells that actually use "natural" effects
to inflict damage naturaly damage cyberware.

As you can see the actuall amount of cyberware a person has, has
nothing to do with the targeting procedure.

> > Heal spells are a different thing because they try to restablish the
> >physical integrity of the target, and cyberware is not part of the
> >physical body as far as magic is concerned so a magician has to work
> >a lot harder to bend the magic to his will to achieve an acceptable
> >result.
>
> By the same token, all spells need to alter the target in one wya or
> another. So it could easily be said that the same rules for healing cyber
> would apply to other spells affecting cyber. Tough to win an argument
> without making a case for the other side in this one...

You are right and you are wrong. You operate under the assumption that
all damaging spells try to alter the nature of their victim. This is
not true, combat and damaging manipulation spells do far from that
(especially the manipulations). Combat spells just pump energy into
the aura of the target causing "collateral" damage, and damaging
manipulations just create great balls of fire that happen to explode
in the imediate vincinity (we are talking about physical spells here).

Producing either effect is no that hard, its just pure destruction.

OTOH combat and damaging manipulation spells are not the only way to
inflict damage. There exist (or can easily be designed) health spells
that are able to inflict damage by doing exactly what you proposed,
namely alter the physical integrity of the target. "Exctract oxygene
from blood" comes to mind :) Now such a spell would qualify for the
extra modifiers you proposed, especially if the target has some
relevant piece of cyber/bioware.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 33
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 15:06:44 +0200
> > someone walking around in Full armor/ Military armor
> >would also be harder to affect with mana and physical
> >spells.
>
> Hmm, the way I saw it was: Cyber makes you loose essence, which makes
> it harder for mages to cast spells on YOU, not on what you're
> wearing.

This is only partly right, not all magic seeks to change its target.
Hell most damaging spells (damaging manipulations & combat spells)
have absolutely nothing to do with it. Take a damaging manipulation
for example, it creates a ball of fire that explodes right beside you.
Why should a low essence rating protect you from the explosion ?

Check out my reply to Bob's post for more on that.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 34
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 15:33:52 +0200
> > Heal spells are a different thing because they try to restablish the
> > physical integrity of the target, and cyberware is not part of the
> > physical body as far as magic is concerned so a magician has to work
> > a lot harder to bend the magic to his will to achieve an acceptable
> > result.
>
> If this were the case, then a magician would have to work a lot harder to
> achieve the desired result for a Power Bolt too. It is not the case. I do
> not think this is reasonable explanation as to why Health spells and only
> Health spells are more difficult to cast on cybered types.

Why do you say that a Power Bolt should be as hard to cast as a health spell?
I mean all a Power Bolt spells is, is a blast of astral energy grounded through
the aura of the target. Its kinda like an electroshock, its nothing delicate,
or hard to do - its just pure and simple power-zaping.

Health spells on the otehr hand seek to change the very nature of the target.
Picture this, a magician cast ing Heal has to set bones, mend them, heal muscle
tissue, extract potentialy dangerous substances, purify others <insert tons
of generic bio-stuff>. Now take this complicated piece of work and add the
complexities of cyberware to it ... This is why cybered guys get a higher
TN when being treated.


--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 35
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 12:02:52 +0200
> I think you'd be able to ID roughly which parts of the body the cyber
> was in;
> his arm has a muted aura - cyberlimb
> he has 'dead areas' in his arm, connected up to his brain
> - maybe a smartlink or spurs.

IMHO you're right, but only if the person in question has only limited
cyber. As an example, one of my own characters has a smartlink, cybereyes, a
replacement hand, a datajack, a softlink, and skillwires+ lvl 3 (among other
things). This is all stuff that's either in his head or in his right arm, so
a mage assensing him would see discoloration in his arm and head, but I
doubt he'd be really able to make out all the individual components, let
alone identify them.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zonco presents... Aural Floss! Order now while stocks last!
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 36
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 12:27:52 BST
Gruth Wrote

> IMHO you're right, but only if the person in question has only limited
> cyber. As an example, one of my own characters has a smartlink, cybereyes, a
> replacement hand, a datajack, a softlink, and skillwires+ lvl 3 (among other
> things). This is all stuff that's either in his head or in his right arm, so
> a mage assensing him would see discoloration in his arm and head, but I
> doubt he'd be really able to make out all the individual components, let
> alone identify them.

I agree, and that's exactly how I play it.

Oh yeah, and if a PC mage gets overly paranoid about people with low essence
wandering around outside there hide-out, then don't forget to put a few
squatters (a fabourite CORP-SWAT team disguise) with addictions (and hence no
essence) to wind them up.

My team has gunned down about eight people because the mage didn't spend long
enough to check for the actual presence of dead areas, he just called them in
as low essence and radio'd back for artillery ;-)

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 37
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 08:11:17 -0700
>Gary writes:
>> someone walking around in Full armor/ Military armor
>>would also be harder to affect with mana and physical
>>spells.
>Eve replies:
>Hmm, the way I saw it was: Cyber makes you loose essence, which makes
>it harder for mages to cast spells on YOU, not on what you're
>wearing. Magic is a natural force; the more "unnatural" you are, the
>harder it is to affect you. Physical spells might still work the same;
>a ball of fire is a ball of fire, whether it comes from a mage or from
>a gas explosion. And wearing armor isn't going to help you if you're
>Joe Uncybered in there, and your aura is as pure as the day you were
>born. But transformations, illusions, mana spells, etc; those should
>be harder to "sync" with someone who's more machine than man.

This was a reply to the statement that a cybered individual
would be harder to affect than a normal uncybered person
because he was surrounded with lifeless material i.e. cyber,
or maybe ortho skin. thus making his aura appear black and
so.... mana spell couldn't affect him becuase you can't see
living aura flesh, and physical spell would be harder to affect
him because of all the cyber "described like a barrier".

I could see his point but my reply was that if you took this
stand stating that if someone was surrounded be armor/cyber/
nonliving material - isn't that what armor is - thus my statement
above.

I agree with the transformation spells but not with illusion or
mana spells - transformations your trying to change something
that is more complex... but illusion and mana are both affecting
the brain/living tissue, and currently you can't replace the brain.
"ie. illusion spell of trid spec. affects cameras and electronics.
but even if it didn't your brain is telling you it is what it is no
matter what the cybereyes/cybersenses are telling you."

Thanks Gary.
Message no. 38
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 19:43:54 +0200
>Gruth Wrote
^^^^^
Hmm... :)

>Oh yeah, and if a PC mage gets overly paranoid about people with low essence
>wandering around outside there hide-out, then don't forget to put a few
>squatters (a fabourite CORP-SWAT team disguise) with addictions (and hence no
>essence) to wind them up.

So _that_'s why drugs reduce the user's Essence... so the GM can throw
harmless addicts at paranoid players *grin* Actually I'd never thought of
this... maybe once my players get stuck in Chicago (haven't played since my
cry for help :( ) I might use this, but make them think it's flesh form
spirits *evil grin*


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zonco presents... Aural Floss! Order now while stocks last!
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 39
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 10:35:57 BST
Hmm, lets try that again :
Gurth Wrote :- (Yay, got it right this time)

> So _that_'s why drugs reduce the user's Essence... so the GM can throw
> harmless addicts at paranoid players *grin* Actually I'd never thought of
> this... maybe once my players get stuck in Chicago (haven't played since my
> cry for help :( ) I might use this, but make them think it's flesh form
> spirits *evil grin*

C'mon, this is one of the first evil things that occured to me after
reading Shadowtech. I've seen players assault entire buildings because of
the essence-reading mage.

BTW, they wre hired to protect a warehouse, firstly they gunned down some
innocent sqauuters, then they unnecessarily assaulted the warehouse next
door becase the poeple going in were dressed in dark clothes, and had low
essence. They were actually a corp-strike team staging for an assault
elsewhere, and the PC's got their butts kicked. One of them died after
being breathed on by the troll with the cyanide toxin exhaler (another
PC).

Ha Ha, sometimes players are their own worst enemies, you don;t have to be
an evil and vicious DM to kill them off.

They are learning to be more careful, and to recon first, then shoot, then
ask questions (although that's still the wrong order, isn't it).



Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 40
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 19:13:48 +0200
>Gurth Wrote :- (Yay, got it right this time)

Getting better :)

>C'mon, this is one of the first evil things that occured to me after
>reading Shadowtech. I've seen players assault entire buildings because of
>the essence-reading mage.

These guys must be _really_ paranoid. Do they assume that anyone with low
Essence is out to get them? Sounds like fun :) Maybe they also geek all
magically-active people? If they do, what'll happen if they go into a bar
where shadowrunners tend to hang out? *grin*

>BTW, they wre hired to protect a warehouse, firstly they gunned down some
>innocent sqauuters, then they unnecessarily assaulted the warehouse next
>door becase the poeple going in were dressed in dark clothes, and had low
>essence. They were actually a corp-strike team staging for an assault
>elsewhere, and the PC's got their butts kicked. One of them died after
>being breathed on by the troll with the cyanide toxin exhaler (another
>PC).
>
>Ha Ha, sometimes players are their own worst enemies, you don;t have to be
>an evil and vicious DM to kill them off.

See? This is also a way to do it, as opposed to using rotary assault cannons
to hose them down while grounding Fireballs though active spell locks just
because one of the players locked one too many spells in the GM's opinion...
I think I'll stop writing about this subject now if you don't mind :) but I
must say I like this option a lot better, using their own habits against them.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What do I do next?
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 41
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 13:02:05 BST
> ? If they do, what'll happen if they go into a bar
> where shadowrunners tend to hang out? *grin*

Been there, done that, worn the (slightly bloody) T-shirt.

They aren't paranoid, just really, really violent.

for example.
One of them needed money bad, he figured that the best way
to get it was to do over another Runner (idiot huh?), so he
asked the retarded troll sammy if he recognised any other
runners in the bar.

I promptly describe an amerind with red and white facepaint, and
the act that the guy's heading out the door.

5 minutes later, our anti-hero jumps out from the shadows, twin
katana's at the ready, at which point ghost-makers kneecaps him
and bends both his katana's for his insolence.


Only once have I ever needed to use a rotary assault cannon
on someone; he was dumb enough to start on a black-market
T-Bird rigger while the guy was buttoned up in his bird,
he annoyed him sufficiently that the medium guns had to be used.

The rest of the time I find sensor-oprated LMG's from Yellowjackets
do very nicely for extreme cases.

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 42
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 16:54:51 +1000
Jani Fikouras writes:

> Physical spells that actually use "natural" effects to inflict damage
> naturaly damage cyberware.

Could you clarify this point a bit? Do you mean Damaging Manipulations which
create "real" effects, or do you mean Physical spells which do something
wierd? (I can't see what you mean by a Physical spell, such as Powerbolt,
using "natural" effects.)

> As you can see the actuall amount of cyberware a person has, has
> nothing to do with the targeting procedure.

Except for the fact that in order for any spell to effect a target, it must
interact with the targets aura, and cyberware most certainly modifies the
targets aura, so there must be differences. But I'd say these are minor, and
in general not worthy of TN modifiers. (Unless the person has such a modified
aura that they're a cyborg rather than a living creature I spose...)

> [Explanation as to why Health spells are more diffucult to cast on
> Essense-deficient persons]

OK, you say that a Health spell will try to "put someone back together how
they should be", with "how they should really be" being how they were at
full
Essense. This sorta makes sense, I can buy that. But as has been said, it
should be therefore possible to make a "Heal Cybered Dude" spell, which
tries to "put them back together", but it takes into account the
modifications the cyber has made to their aura.

-------------
Gurth writes:

> > I think you'd be able to ID roughly which parts of the body the cyber
> > was in; his arm has a muted aura - cyberlimb
> he has 'dead areas' in his arm, connected up to his brain
> - maybe a smartlink or spurs.
>
> IMHO you're right, but only if the person in question has only limited
> cyber. As an example, one of my own characters has a smartlink, cybereyes, a
> replacement hand, a datajack, a softlink, and skillwires+ lvl 3 (among other
> things). This is all stuff that's either in his head or in his right arm, so
> a mage assensing him would see discoloration in his arm and head, but I
> doubt he'd be really able to make out all the individual components, let
> alone identify them.

I don't think individual marring of the aura will be evident. A general
darkness or decrepedness of the aura for sure, but remember that the aura is
for the entire being, so individual bits won't show up as individual bits.
Cyberware would give a person a "gray" aura, but their left arm containing
the smartlink would be no different to their right arm which does not. Those
skilled in aura reading would be able to associate the slight differences in
"grayness" with different cyber, and those less skilled would merely be able
to say "well, it's pretty gray, therefore he's got mucho 'ware". Fully
determining what cyber an individual has would be difficult, and if they had
lots of it (many different bits), almost impossible.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 43
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 18:25:28 +0200
> Jani Fikouras writes:
>
> > Physical spells that actually use "natural" effects to inflict damage
> > naturaly damage cyberware.
>
> Could you clarify this point a bit? Do you mean Damaging Manipulations which
> create "real" effects, or do you mean Physical spells which do something
> wierd? (I can't see what you mean by a Physical spell, such as Powerbolt,
> using "natural" effects.)

I mean both damaging manipulations and the elemental effects of combat
spells (only the elemental effects).

> > As you can see the actuall amount of cyberware a person has, has
> > nothing to do with the targeting procedure.
>
> Except for the fact that in order for any spell to effect a target, it must
> interact with the targets aura, and cyberware most certainly modifies the
> targets aura, so there must be differences. But I'd say these are minor, and
> in general not worthy of TN modifiers. (Unless the person has such a modified
> aura that they're a cyborg rather than a living creature I spose...)

His aura is modified no doubt about it, but he still has an aura and thats
all it takes to blast him.

> > [Explanation as to why Health spells are more diffucult to cast on
> > Essense-deficient persons]
>
> OK, you say that a Health spell will try to "put someone back together how
> they should be", with "how they should really be" being how they were
at full
> Essense. This sorta makes sense, I can buy that. But as has been said, it
> should be therefore possible to make a "Heal Cybered Dude" spell, which
> tries to "put them back together", but it takes into account the
> modifications the cyber has made to their aura.

Such a spell should be theoretically possible - even if a lot more draining
than the vanilla version. The problem is however that a persons "healthy state"
is recorded in his aura/cells, so when a magician tries to heal him all he has
to do is read that info and get on the job. Where is a magician supposed to
get the info he needs about a heavily cybered individual. I would accept
such a spell if it were cyberware restricted (and it would still cost a*lot*
more drain).

--
"Tonight, hell sends an Angel bearing gifts"

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 44
From: Malaclypse the Younger <shadow@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 15:09:57 -0500
> OK, you say that a Health spell will try to "put someone back together how
> they should be", with "how they should really be" being how they were
at full
> Essense. This sorta makes sense, I can buy that. But as has been said, it
> should be therefore possible to make a "Heal Cybered Dude" spell, which
> tries to "put them back together", but it takes into account the
> modifications the cyber has made to their aura.

No, because there is no way to know HOW to restore the body, as the
aura still tries to revert to the bodies pristine state. Thus, there
is no way to "take into account" the cyberware.

Malaclypse the Younger
shadow@******.net
Message no. 45
From: mnj <mnj@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 20:30:00 MDT
>> OK, you say that a Health spell will try to "put someone back together how
>> they should be", with "how they should really be" being how they
were at full
>> Essense. This sorta makes sense, I can buy that. But as has been said, it
>> should be therefore possible to make a "Heal Cybered Dude" spell, which
>> tries to "put them back together", but it takes into account the
>> modifications the cyber has made to their aura.
>
> Such a spell should be theoretically possible - even if a lot more draining
>than the vanilla version. The problem is however that a persons "healthy
state"
>is recorded in his aura/cells, so when a magician tries to heal him all he has
>to do is read that info and get on the job. Where is a magician supposed to
>get the info he needs about a heavily cybered individual. I would accept
>such a spell if it were cyberware restricted (and it would still cost a*lot*
>more drain).
>
>--
> "Tonight, hell sends an Angel bearing gifts"

What would happen if a very powerful mage cast a cure deadly on a well
cybered Street Sam and scored a ton of successes. Using the logic of the
healing spell is trying to put them back to how they should be or used to
be. Wouldn't this mean a lot of successes would actually do it?

And for that matter can a heal deadly or treat deadly regenerate lost limbs?

mnj@******.net AKA Dr.Feelgood@*****
Message no. 46
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 01:50:20 -0400
On Fri, 19 May 1995, mnj wrote:

> What would happen if a very powerful mage cast a cure deadly on a well
> cybered Street Sam and scored a ton of successes. Using the logic of the
> healing spell is trying to put them back to how they should be or used to
> be. Wouldn't this mean a lot of successes would actually do it?

A ton of successes merely means either a) a bunch of boxes of
damage healed or b) fewer boxes healed quicker. It only heals the body
and has no effect on cyberware.
As a sidenote, it is possible that one could create a physical
health spell with a specific target of "vehicles" and have a "Repair"
spell, but as a GM, I would be hesitant to allow this, and even if I did,
the target number to cast on vehicles is an 8 and the drain would be
something hellish [(F/2 +2)Wound-Level ?]

> And for that matter can a heal deadly or treat deadly regenerate lost limbs?

There is no "heal deadly" anymore. It's just heal. And no, it
won't regenerate lost limbs.

Marc
Message no. 47
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Magic & Tech
Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 17:26:55 +0200
> >> OK, you say that a Health spell will try to "put someone back together
how
> >> they should be", with "how they should really be" being how
they were at full
> >> Essense. This sorta makes sense, I can buy that. But as has been said, it
> >> should be therefore possible to make a "Heal Cybered Dude" spell,
which
> >> tries to "put them back together", but it takes into account the
> >> modifications the cyber has made to their aura.
> >
> > Such a spell should be theoretically possible - even if a lot more draining
> >than the vanilla version. The problem is however that a persons "healthy
state"
> >is recorded in his aura/cells, so when a magician tries to heal him all he has
> >to do is read that info and get on the job. Where is a magician supposed to
> >get the info he needs about a heavily cybered individual. I would accept
> >such a spell if it were cyberware restricted (and it would still cost a*lot*
> >more drain).
>
> What would happen if a very powerful mage cast a cure deadly on a well
> cybered Street Sam and scored a ton of successes. Using the logic of the
> healing spell is trying to put them back to how they should be or used to
> be. Wouldn't this mean a lot of successes would actually do it?

Assuming that the magician will be actively trying to avoid something like
that no. OTOH if some weirdo decides to ignore the cyber and go ahead with
the spell as if the patient had a full essense I'd rule that the damage
done by the cyber as the body gets remolded (not to mention the pain) at least
equalls the wounds the patient had before the treatment. In other words
duhhhh ...

> And for that matter can a heal deadly or treat deadly regenerate lost limbs?

We dont have heal deadly spells anymore dude :) this is SRII. Anyway
I dont think thats possible as a mutilation probably leaves a distinct
impression on the aura of the victim. The aura gets changed to the
aura of a person without a leg/hand/arm etc. OTOH one could argue that
a persons DNA always stays intact (lets leave radiation etc. out of this)
and therefore spells like "regenerate limb" should be feasible. *shrug*
If you ask me it sounds like **&* .

--
"Tonight, hell sends an Angel bearing gifts"

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++$S++L++$>++++ L++>+++ E--- N+ h*(+)
W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Further Reading

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