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From:	PLUM9349@********
Subject:	Magic vs. Cyber
Date:	Wed, 7 Oct 92 12:07:00 EST

Message no. 1 Date sent: 7-OCT-1992 12:03:35
>From: IN%"cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU" "Chris Siebenmann"
6-OCT-1992 16:31
:39.33
>To: IN%"DEPO4807@********.BITNET" "Todd T. Depole",
IN%"PLUM9349@********.B
ITNET" "JASON PLUMADORE"
>CC:
>Subj: RE: Magick oriented my ass
>
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> 6 Oct 1992 15:18 EST
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>Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 15:12:54 -0400
>From: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
>Subject: RE: Magick oriented my ass
>Sender: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun <SHADOWRN@*****.BITNET>
>To: "Todd T. Depole" <DEPO4807@********.BITNET>,
> JASON PLUMADORE <PLUM9349@********.BITNET>
>Reply-to: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
>Message-id: <01GPMSRDWOS495QAO1@******.cc.plattsburgh.edu>
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>
> All the starting cybered characters I've seen have been under one
>essence, ie *no way of adding that cyberlimb*, thankyew (unless they
>can a) find a high-grade clinic and b) get some of their essence back
>by replacing existing cybering with high-grade stuff). This is likely
>to be MORE difficult than initiation; after all, the Grimoire gives
>very mechanical rules for finding initiate groups.
>
> - cks

OK I can see a point there but you have options, all you need is cash and
time. (those things are a lot easier to come by than Karma points.) Also
when you are replacing these things or improving the character to gain
essence or whatever your Karma can be used to increase your attributes or
aquire new skills whereas a mage who has to spend a lot of Karma (check the
Grimoire if you don't believe me) just to initiate once, doesn't have a
whole hell of a lot left over.

" Magic is the essence of being, it can create, destroy, leave one in a
state of awe or make them flee in panic. Unfortuneately it can also do all
of these things to me "

Bengal (Tiger Shamanic Adept)

From:	steven mancini <mancinis@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Magic vs. Cyber
Date:	Thu, 8 Oct 92 15:11:13 EST

Message no. 2 ]
] OK I can see a point there but you have options, all you need is cash and
] time. (those things are a lot easier to come by than Karma points.) Also
] when you are replacing these things or improving the character to gain
] essence or whatever your Karma can be used to increase your attributes or
] aquire new skills whereas a mage who has to spend a lot of Karma (check the
] Grimoire if you don't believe me) just to initiate once, doesn't have a
] whole hell of a lot left over.
]
] Bengal (Tiger Shamanic Adept)

ALL YOU NEED IS CASH AND TIME?!?!?!?!?!

Hmmm. Am I the only the only GM who has sam's who eat their Karma as
fast as the Mages? Unfortunately, I don't buy this "Mages spend karma
more than Mundanes" garbage. For instance, everyone keeps talking about
all this great upgrading for cyberware. Last time I checked (forgive me
if I am wrong) but the Doctor has to use his skill with a target of
the Samurai's NEW ESSENCE. So, in effect, these poor Doc's are trying to
hit targets in the 7+ range usually. And what happens if the Doc doesn't
get *at least* 2 successes? The Metal Man on your table is sacrificing
-more- essence cause of a sloppy job. Generally, in our games, about
the same time out Mages are contemplating adding 3 force 4 spells, or
going initiate with a group (12 karma), our *real* warriors are pumping
their hard earned 12 points of Karma into guaranteeing the best surgery
possible.

Also, am I also the only GM that has their Magicians burning as much
karma as the Samurai on improving attributes and skills?

I do not argue that Magicians eat karma, however, I think it is a bit
limited to believe they are alone in this tactic...

-Minotaur
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Steve Mancini (a.k.a. The Minotaur) | mancinis@******.cc.purdue.edu |
| Grad Student {Dazed & Confused} | mancinis@**.cc.purdue.edu |
| Political Science Department | phi@****.cc.purdue.edu |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| "Of all that is written, I love only what a person hath written with |
| his blood. Write with blood and thou wilt find that blood is spirit" |
| -Nietzche, Thus Spoke Zarathrustra |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+

From:	steven mancini <mancinis@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Magic vs. Cyber
Date:	Fri, 9 Oct 92 15:14:14 EST

Message no. 3 ]
] Minotaur, I may be wrong, but I think that you may not be doing surgery rig
] ht. First, if a doctor's target number is "the sams new essence" then the #
] would be lower (i.e. I have essence 5 and get muscle replacement 1, my essen
] ce is now 4 not 7). Second, I do not recall any rules of this nature in either
] edition, although, I could be mistaken. I think that this argument is not rea
] lly important, because in SII, the karma rules force 90% of karma into
] good karma which can only be used for skills, attributes, etc, not saving runn
] er butt. Comments anyone?
] Predator (11:13/10-9-2053)

Thanks Predator. But I am doing surgery right, I just expressed the system
poorly. The tactic to which I was referring is in the Street Samurai
Catalog, pg. 97 "Upgrading Cyberware". The exact formula I should have
been referencing is the doc has a target number equal to:

10 - NEW ESSENCE = Target # vs Biotech Skill

So in fact, as the samurai gets more wares placed in his corpse, the
surgeries become increasingly harder, and the samurai risks losing
-more- essence (up to 20%). Since essence is the link to better
chrome, this is a valuable loss. Conversely, superb surgery can save
additional essence (up to 20%) which in the end can mean an additional
level of wires, or dermal plating, at the cost of the level below it.
Consequently, the samurai in our gaming group do save their karma for
surgeries, and treat these surgeries with the same importance as our
wizworms do their initiation.

As for SR II, you folks can all keep it. I have read 2nd edition and I
am honestly not impressed. I am keeping my game SR I with *some*
of SR II rules adopted, but not many.

As for mages and bioware, no way. I agree it should cost essence. I don't
need no weeny wiz-worm walking around in Orthoskin; sorry, magicians are
strong enough they don't need us overlooking additional rules to give
them *more* breaks IMHO.

As for regaining essence over time, nah I don't like that either. I am
unsure where I have read it, but they describe the aged as having their
essence bleeding away, as do the sick. Consequently I really don't believe
time will allow a gradual increase in essence. Perhaps they will come
up with some rejuvenation technique similar to Leonization in the
Shadowtech Catalog. Maybe the greater power that be might also be able
to produce a remedy. Look to the healer totems, they may be the link
to future miracles. But time and minor regiments will be insufficient
IMHO.

+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
| Steve Mancini (a.k.a. The Minotaur) | mancinis@******.cc.purdue.edu |
| Grad Student {Dazed & Confused} | mancinis@**.cc.purdue.edu |
| Political Science Department | phi@****.cc.purdue.edu |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| "Of all that is written, I love only what a person hath written with |
| his blood. Write with blood and thou wilt find that blood is spirit" |
| -Nietzche, Thus Spoke Zarathrustra |
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+

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