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Message no. 1
From: Vagen Karrde <vagen@*****.COM>
Subject: Magnetic Question
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:56:19 +0000
How would a Strong magnet(Large) effect cyberware in a Character?

Help is appreciated.


Vagen
Message no. 2
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:09:38 -0500
At 07:56 PM 8/5/97 +0000, you wrote:
#How would a Strong magnet(Large) effect cyberware in a Character?
#
#Help is appreciated.
#
#
# Vagen

depends if cyberware is ferrous or not

I don't know if it's steel, as steel would possibly rust

anyone else know?
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 3
From: Shergold <shergold@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:48:25 -0400
<snipped question 'bout magnets affecting cyber by vagen>

> depends if cyberware is ferrous or not
>
> I don't know if it's steel, as steel would possibly rust
>
> anyone else know?

I think a majority of cyber isn't ferrous I think that it's mainy
fiberoptics (wired refs and things like that) I think cyber limbs, eyes and
ears contain metal, and the aluminum and titanium bonelacing are definately
metal. I think it's a case by case situation with the various pieces of
cyber. I don't think a magnet could rip the metal out of the person, but
imagine what would happen to the street sam with two cyber arms?
<envision big tough dude hanging from a magnet with his arms saying"Guys
what happened? EG>

My $0.02.

SilverFire

"I merely chewed in self-defense."

-Draco the Dragon
"Dragonheart"
Message no. 4
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:39:05 -0600
Vagen Karrde wrote:
|
| How would a Strong magnet(Large) effect cyberware in a Character?

It depends.

Cyberware uses almost no ferrous materials (plastics, titanium,
fiberoptics, synthetic composites, and alloys (which are usually
non-ferrous)). The ferrous materials required for power are
minimal. And I'm not sure what effects a magnetic field can have on
the flow of electricity.

However, anything can be affected by magnetism if the field is strong
enough. Some scientists recently created a magnetic field that could
counter gravity on a frog, with no ill effects for the frog (they
also used other things like hazelnuts, water, and a flower).

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 5
From: Swordman <swordman@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:09:28 -0500
Vagen Karrde wrote:
>
> How would a Strong magnet(Large) effect cyberware in a Character?
>
> Help is appreciated.
>
> Vagen

Depends on Ferrous you conisder Cyberware.
Message no. 6
From: Lorden <westln@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:27:36 -0400
A static magnetic field does not offer much chance to damage
anything. Although EMT and others who enter MRI rooms are very
carefull to leave anything metalic outside the room. I have
heard of stories of shears & pens being ripped out of holders
and "flying across the room" when someone forgot.

Also if something tries moving in the magnetic fields, ie gears
in an anolog watch they tend not to move. This can cause them to
break.

Now if you pulse that field or move by incredibly quickly so
that it seems to pulse to you, say good bye to unshielded micro
electronics, or hello to random errors until the electronic
stabalize outside the field again.

So if your in a really unfriendly EMF environment, such as a
power plant, Power substation, or Radar or radio tower, a little
cyber noise might be appropriate.

--
Nigel westln@***.edu
AKA C. Yossarrian, UPAC Projectionist
AKA Lorden
Speaking for myself, and no one else.
Message no. 7
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:59:41 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-06 09:44:29 EDT, you write:

> However, anything can be affected by magnetism if the field is strong
> enough. Some scientists recently created a magnetic field that could
> counter gravity on a frog, with no ill effects for the frog (they
> also used other things like hazelnuts, water, and a flower).

And an Acorn, don't forget the acorn. Although that experiment kinda makes
Shadowrun behind the tech curve. If they can counter gravity with a magnetic
field, then LAVs should use that instead of a vectored thrust system - which
would make 'em a hell of a lot faster, 'cause all the thrust would be aimed
out the back.

Wolfstar
Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:14:46 -0600
George Metz wrote:
|
| In a message dated 97-08-06 09:44:29 EDT, you write:
|
| > However, anything can be affected by magnetism if the field is strong
| > enough. Some scientists recently created a magnetic field that could
| > counter gravity on a frog, with no ill effects for the frog (they
| > also used other things like hazelnuts, water, and a flower).
|
| And an Acorn, don't forget the acorn. Although that experiment kinda makes
| Shadowrun behind the tech curve. If they can counter gravity with a magnetic
| field, then LAVs should use that instead of a vectored thrust system - which
| would make 'em a hell of a lot faster, 'cause all the thrust would be aimed
| out the back.

...but, the ammount of power required to lift a 20 ton LAV would be
outrageous. Also, the magnetic field works on a *molecular* level.
I think there would be a pretty funky atmospheric reaction.

...wait a sec. It could actually be used to generate thrust without
using fans. You've got your basic air intake, a section that's
within the magnetic field that's channeling the air to the exhaust
end. You've still got to solve that power problem though. Or come
up with a "room temperature" superconductor.

And you could use the same propulsion idea on a submarine. No more
caviation from propellor blades.

Man, the future ain't gonna be like I thought.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 9
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <Dreadnaut1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:22:11 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-06 15:14:30 EDT, you write:

> And you could use the same propulsion idea on a submarine. No more
> caviation from propellor blades.
>

Yup...but it will only work in salt water...

Think of "The Hunt for Red October"...

Later-

Duncan
Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:59:41 -0600
Duncan McNeill-Burton wrote:
|
| In a message dated 97-08-06 15:14:30 EDT, you write:
|
| > And you could use the same propulsion idea on a submarine. No more
| > caviation from propellor blades.
|
| Yup...but it will only work in salt water...
|
| Think of "The Hunt for Red October"...

Um, no. The magnetic fields I'm talking about affect any molecule,
salt or no salt. And Red October had a carterpiller or screw drive,
not a magnetic induction one.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 11
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:48:00 GMT
on 05.08.97 justin@******.NET wrote:

j> #How would a Strong magnet(Large) effect cyberware in a Character?
j> #
j> #Help is appreciated.
j> #
j> #
j> # Vagen
j>
j> depends if cyberware is ferrous or not

Hmmm...you just have to be able to run some electric-power through it.
Gold, silver or copper works just fine.

j> I don't know if it's steel, as steel would possibly rust
j>
j> anyone else know?

The transmitting stuff (from your brain to your cyberarm) is probably
fiber-optic, but the actual cyberware has got to work with electricity (I
don't think, you have crank for you wired reflexes, do you?), so you can
induce power. Poor sammy...

bye

## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 12
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:36:00 GMT
on 05.08.97 vagen@*****.COM wrote:

v> Authenticated sender is <vagen@*****.com>
v> How would a Strong magnet(Large) effect cyberware in a Character?

If you move a wire through a magnetic field, you will induce power in it.
If you move a cybered char through this field....well, his cyberware is
never gonna be the same.

Serious: The induction will most likely damage (see cyberware-damage in
the SSC and Cybertech) the chrome. If the field is strong enough, the
cyberware will be destroyed and (if the field is really strong) the
produced heat (we have a lot of short circuts, remember?) will toast the
char.

bye


## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:42:19 +0100
Duncan McNeill-Burton said on 15:22/ 6 Aug 97...

> > And you could use the same propulsion idea on a submarine. No more
> > caviation from propellor blades.
> >
>
> Yup...but it will only work in salt water...
>
> Think of "The Hunt for Red October"...

I have this feeling Paul Adam will say something about this... From last
time he did, IIRC it's too inefficient to be a good method of propulsion
for submarines, let alone other vehicles.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Pleasure is to be insane.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 14
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:44:08 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-06 19:25:43 EDT, you write:

> | Yup...but it will only work in salt water...
> |
> | Think of "The Hunt for Red October"...
>
> Um, no. The magnetic fields I'm talking about affect any molecule,
> salt or no salt. And Red October had a carterpiller or screw drive,
> not a magnetic induction one.

Um, yeah, the caterpillar drive worked by pulling water into the front
opening and squirting it out the back via electromagnets, ie, magnetic
induction drive. I suggest re-renting the movie, or read the book again.
Clancy goes into it in both.

Wolfstar
Message no. 15
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 05:19:52 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 04:38:00 EDT, you write:

> Serious: The induction will most likely damage (see cyberware-damage in
> the SSC and Cybertech) the chrome. If the field is strong enough, the
> cyberware will be destroyed and (if the field is really strong) the
> produced heat (we have a lot of short circuts, remember?) will toast the
> char.

No go. For saftey, health, and lawsuit reasons, non-ferrous metals are not
used. In fact, they aren't used in medical implants right now for the same
reasons.

Wolfstar
Message no. 16
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:14:15 +1000
> No go. For saftey, health, and lawsuit reasons, non-ferrous metals are not
> used. In fact, they aren't used in medical implants right now for the same
> reasons.

Excuse me... you're going to implant something that puts you in a
permanent epileptic fit and you're worried about whether it's gonna
RUST?!

Anyway, I thought I recalled that Wired Reflexs (and I guess stuff like
the smartlink) are gold tracks...

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I'm crazy? I prefer the term 'sensibility deficient'
- Tamino
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 17
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:49:03 +0100
|
|In a message dated 97-08-06 09:44:29 EDT, you write:
|
|> However, anything can be affected by magnetism if the field is strong
|> enough. Some scientists recently created a magnetic field that could
|> counter gravity on a frog, with no ill effects for the frog (they
|> also used other things like hazelnuts, water, and a flower).
|
| And an Acorn, don't forget the acorn. Although that experiment kinda makes
|Shadowrun behind the tech curve. If they can counter gravity with a magnetic
|field, then LAVs should use that instead of a vectored thrust system - which
|would make 'em a hell of a lot faster, 'cause all the thrust would be aimed
|out the back.

Just because they can do it to an acorn that maybe weighs one ounce doen not
make it possible to lift several tons.

Think about it! How powerfull was the magnetic field required to be to defy
one OUNCE of force?

How powerfull would it need to be for 10 tons? Where would this power COME
from? And more to the point, the moment it was activated in an open area,
every ferrous object for miles around would become a deadly projectile....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 07:08:11 -0600
George Metz wrote:
|
| > Um, no. The magnetic fields I'm talking about affect any molecule,
| > salt or no salt. And Red October had a carterpiller or screw drive,
| > not a magnetic induction one.
|
| Um, yeah, the caterpillar drive worked by pulling water into the front
| opening and squirting it out the back via electromagnets, ie, magnetic
| induction drive. I suggest re-renting the movie, or read the book again.
| Clancy goes into it in both.

?? Gah :( I thought it moved the water mechanically, and the
mechanics where moved by magnets.

Anyway, my first point about not needing salt still holds true.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 19
From: "Steven A. Collins" <scollins@**.UML.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:57:35 -0400
On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, George Metz wrote:

->In a message dated 97-08-06 19:25:43 EDT, you write:
->
->> | Yup...but it will only work in salt water...
->> |
->> | Think of "The Hunt for Red October"...
->>
->> Um, no. The magnetic fields I'm talking about affect any molecule,
->> salt or no salt. And Red October had a carterpiller or screw drive,
->> not a magnetic induction one.
->
-> Um, yeah, the caterpillar drive worked by pulling water into the front
->opening and squirting it out the back via electromagnets, ie, magnetic
->induction drive. I suggest re-renting the movie, or read the book again.
->Clancy goes into it in both.
->
-> Wolfstar
->
Actually this is not true. In the book it was a screw inside a tunnel
that propelled the boat. In the movie it was the magnetic induction
drive. When Clancy wrote the book in 1985? the idea of a magnetic
induction drive was a little known theory. By the time the movie was
made in 1990? there was a working experemental model. It is a ferry in
Japan and is capable of something like a whopping 10 knots and uses
superconductors to form the magnetic fields. Probably Clancy never
heard of an induction drive when he wrote the book but they changed it
in the movie to make it seem cooler.
Message no. 20
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <Dreadnaut1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:35:37 -0400
David said:
> George Metz wrote:
> |
> | > Um, no. The magnetic fields I'm talking about affect any molecule,
> | > salt or no salt. And Red October had a carterpiller or screw drive,
> | > not a magnetic induction one.
> |
> | Um, yeah, the caterpillar drive worked by pulling water into the front
> | opening and squirting it out the back via electromagnets, ie, magnetic
> | induction drive. I suggest re-renting the movie, or read the book again.
> | Clancy goes into it in both.
>
> ?? Gah :( I thought it moved the water mechanically, and the
> mechanics where moved by magnets.
>
> Anyway, my first point about not needing salt still holds true.
>

While the system could work in fresh water, the salt cranks up the
conductivity of the water, making the system almost efficient, aside from the
huge power demand and the hideous overheating problems...

Later-

Duncan
Message no. 21
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:57:22 -0600
Duncan McNeill-Burton wrote:
|
[snip: magnetic induction drive for subs]
|
| > Anyway, my first point about not needing salt still holds true.
|
| While the system could work in fresh water, the salt cranks up the
| conductivity of the water, making the system almost efficient, aside from the
| huge power demand and the hideous overheating problems...

You lost me on the conductivity.

For power, will a cold fusion plant fit on a submarine?

And for heat, you're in the ocean. I would think there would be some
way to bleed off heat into the surrounding water (silently).

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 22
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:58:57 -0600
Duncan McNeill-Burton wrote:
|
| ...making the system almost efficient...

If it's being built for a miliary, efficiency isn't an issue ;)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 23
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:35:02 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 06:15:31 EDT, you write:

> > No go. For saftey, health, and lawsuit reasons, non-ferrous metals are
> not
> > used. In fact, they aren't used in medical implants right now for the
same
> > reasons.
>
> Excuse me... you're going to implant something that puts you in a
> permanent epileptic fit and you're worried about whether it's gonna
> RUST?!

Excuse me??? Who here's talking about Move-by-Wire systems? I'm talking
about cyberware and magnets, and the reasons they wouldn't use ferrous
metals. If a ferrous metal inside your body became magnetized, it would
attract all the hemoglobin in your bloodstream to it, thereby reducing the
amount of oxygen in your bloodstream significantly, as well as forming clots.

Wolfstar
Message no. 24
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:39:48 +0100
| Excuse me??? Who here's talking about Move-by-Wire systems? I'm talking
|about cyberware and magnets, and the reasons they wouldn't use ferrous
|metals. If a ferrous metal inside your body became magnetized, it would
|attract all the hemoglobin in your bloodstream to it, thereby reducing the
|amount of oxygen in your bloodstream significantly, as well as forming clots.

I wasn't aware that Hemoglobin WAS magnetic...
Just because it's got Iron in it, doesn't automatically mean that it is
y'know...
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 25
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:57:15 -0500
You wrote:
> Excuse me??? Who here's talking about Move-by-Wire systems? I'm talking
> about cyberware and magnets, and the reasons they wouldn't use ferrous
> metals. If a ferrous metal inside your body became magnetized, it would
> attract all the hemoglobin in your bloodstream to it, thereby reducing the
> amount of oxygen in your bloodstream significantly, as well as forming clots.

Is this just speculation, or are you really sure of the physics behind this?
Just because Hemglobin has iron in it doesn't make it highly magnetic.
Otherwise why wouldn't all the hemoglobin clump together, metal or no metal,
int he presenc of a strong magnetic field?

losthalo
Message no. 26
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:18:29 +0100
David Buehrer said on 11:58/ 7 Aug 97...

> If it's being built for a miliary, efficiency isn't an issue ;)

Although you added a smiley, even the military has to have some degree of
efficiency in its equipment. How high that is, is inversely proportional
to how bad they think they need it :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Pleasure is to be insane.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 27
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:37:00 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 15:32:28 EDT, you write:

> Actually this is not true. In the book it was a screw inside a tunnel
> that propelled the boat. In the movie it was the magnetic induction
> drive. When Clancy wrote the book in 1985? the idea of a magnetic
> induction drive was a little known theory. By the time the movie was
> made in 1990? there was a working experemental model. It is a ferry in
> Japan and is capable of something like a whopping 10 knots and uses
> superconductors to form the magnetic fields. Probably Clancy never
> heard of an induction drive when he wrote the book but they changed it
> in the movie to make it seem cooler.

No go, a screw inside the tunnel would still cause cavitation to occur.
Also, bear in mind that Clancy is essentially Jack Ryan(he says about himself
what Ryan says, namely "I gave a few lectures for the CIA, that's it") and
he's written several non-fiction works based on the Los Angeles-class 688's
and whatever the prevalent boomer is. If there's a man who knew about the
induction drive in the mid-80's it was Clancy. I'm going to the library
tonight, so I'll check the book, but I'm almost positive that it was an
induction drive.

Wolfstar
Message no. 28
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:01:00 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 17:52:22 EDT, you write:

> Is this just speculation, or are you really sure of the physics behind
this?
>
> Just because Hemglobin has iron in it doesn't make it highly magnetic.
> Otherwise why wouldn't all the hemoglobin clump together, metal or no
metal,
> int he presenc of a strong magnetic field?

If by "really sure of the physics", you mean "did you do extensive
research?" then no, I'm not. The reason hemoglobin wouldn't clump together in
the presence of a strong magnetic field is because there's no localized point
to attract it to. If there's a small central point to the field in contact
with the blood stream, the hemoglobin will begin to collect there.

Wolfstar
Message no. 29
From: "Steven A. Collins" <scollins@**.UML.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:03:58 -0400
On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, George Metz wrote:

->In a message dated 97-08-07 15:32:28 EDT, you write:
->
->> Actually this is not true. In the book it was a screw inside a tunnel
->> that propelled the boat. In the movie it was the magnetic induction
->> drive. When Clancy wrote the book in 1985? the idea of a magnetic
->> induction drive was a little known theory. By the time the movie was
->> made in 1990? there was a working experemental model. It is a ferry in
->> Japan and is capable of something like a whopping 10 knots and uses
->> superconductors to form the magnetic fields. Probably Clancy never
->> heard of an induction drive when he wrote the book but they changed it
->> in the movie to make it seem cooler.
->
-> No go, a screw inside the tunnel would still cause cavitation to occur.
->Also, bear in mind that Clancy is essentially Jack Ryan(he says about himself
->what Ryan says, namely "I gave a few lectures for the CIA, that's it") and
->he's written several non-fiction works based on the Los Angeles-class 688's
->and whatever the prevalent boomer is. If there's a man who knew about the
->induction drive in the mid-80's it was Clancy. I'm going to the library
->tonight, so I'll check the book, but I'm almost positive that it was an
->induction drive.
->
-> Wolfstar
->
In my paberback version of Hunt for the Red October on Pg. 57

"They call it a tunnel drive. You know how out West they have lots of
hydroelectric power plants? Mostly dams. The water spills onto wheels
that turn generators. Now there's a few new ones that kind of turn
around. They tap into underground rivers, and the water turns
impellers, and they turn the generators instead of a modified wheel.
An impeller is like a propeller, except the water drives it instead of
the other way around. .............

With this design you turn that around. You suck water in the bow and
your impellers eject it out the stern, and that moves your ship."

This is Skip Tyler speaking when Ryan first Brings him the pictures of
the Red October. As to the Cavitation, on the next page.

"Now this tunnel drive system avoids the cavitation problem. You still
have cavitation , but the noise from it is mainly lost in the
tunnels."

Like I said when he wrote of it in the early 80's probably no one had
ever heard of an induction drive and they changed it in the movie
because it sounded better.
Message no. 30
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:51:46 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 03:44:55 EDT, W0lfstar@***.COM writes:

>
> Um, yeah, the caterpillar drive worked by pulling water into the front
> opening and squirting it out the back via electromagnets, ie, magnetic
> induction drive. I suggest re-renting the movie, or read the book again.
> Clancy goes into it in both.
>
> Wolfstar
>
Okay, I'm in this conversation now.

The "Magnetic Fields" in the Red October used the "Catepillar Drive"
yes.
But that had nothing to do with magnetic energy actually
manipulating/forcing water. It was more like an escalatory magrail system.
The "screws" weren't attached to a central drive mechanism. Instead, they
were maneuvered down an ever changing magrail system, similar to the "Maglev"
principles used in trains. Now I haven't read the book, but my roommate has
(he's Clancy's biggest fan, he even says so ;) and that is his
interpretation of such.
-K
Message no. 31
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 01:57:12 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 18:34:38 EDT, you write:

> "They call it a tunnel drive. You know how out West they have lots of
> hydroelectric power plants? Mostly dams. The water spills onto wheels
> that turn generators. Now there's a few new ones that kind of turn
> around. They tap into underground rivers, and the water turns
> impellers, and they turn the generators instead of a modified wheel.
> An impeller is like a propeller, except the water drives it instead of
> the other way around. .............
>
> With this design you turn that around. You suck water in the bow and
> your impellers eject it out the stern, and that moves your ship."
>
> This is Skip Tyler speaking when Ryan first Brings him the pictures of
> the Red October. As to the Cavitation, on the next page.
>
> "Now this tunnel drive system avoids the cavitation problem. You still
> have cavitation , but the noise from it is mainly lost in the
> tunnels."
>
> Like I said when he wrote of it in the early 80's probably no one had
> ever heard of an induction drive and they changed it in the movie
> because it sounded better.

Thank you, I stand corrected. Sorry about that.

Wolfstar, contemplating reading all the Clancy novels over again.....
Message no. 32
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 02:07:50 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 19:04:00 EDT, you write:

> | Excuse me??? Who here's talking about Move-by-Wire systems? I'm talking
> |about cyberware and magnets, and the reasons they wouldn't use ferrous
> |metals. If a ferrous metal inside your body became magnetized, it would
> |attract all the hemoglobin in your bloodstream to it, thereby reducing
the
> |amount of oxygen in your bloodstream significantly, as well as forming
> clots.
>
> I wasn't aware that Hemoglobin WAS magnetic...
> Just because it's got Iron in it, doesn't automatically mean that it is
> y'know...

First off, I'd like to point out that for some reason I missed the rather
abrasive appearance of that note. It was me being confused, and came out like
me being an ass.
Second, since it's iron-basedit could be magnetically attracted, I'm not
really sure(is there a biochemist or doctor in the house?). But the lawsuit
angle should still hold up - what happens when someone with a pacemaker goes
through a magnetic field? If the pacemaker's got ferrous metals in it, it
could stop, killing the person. It's generally not a wise thing, and bearing
in mind that everything's done for money, and that lawsuits take money away,
then I'd say that it isn't ferrous.

Wolfstar
Message no. 33
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:47:59 GMT
David Buehrer writes
>
> For power, will a cold fusion plant fit on a submarine?
>
Ask FASA :), probably considering they fit Fission plants now.

> And for heat, you're in the ocean. I would think there would be some
> way to bleed off heat into the surrounding water (silently).
>
The problem with dumping large ammounts of heat is there are way to
detect that. Yes it would be pretty quiet but the first guy to fly a
infrared satellite over you is going to be laughing (ok not many
folks have these but if you have a boomer thats who the opposition
will be). The effect of the heat (if you are dumping a lot) on the
temperature gradients in the water also may be detectable. Exactly
how easy this would be though is very questionable as it would
diffuse pretty quickly. I don't know enough about this sort of thing
but i doubt many do.
Message no. 34
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 13:15:27 +0100
| Second, since it's iron-basedit could be magnetically attracted, I'm not
|really sure(is there a biochemist or doctor in the house?). But the lawsuit
|angle should still hold up - what happens when someone with a pacemaker goes
|through a magnetic field? If the pacemaker's got ferrous metals in it, it
|could stop, killing the person.

Errrrr.... Why would it stop?
They don't make clockwork pacemakers y'know.
The reason people with pacemakers shouldn't go near powerfull EM fields it
that it can interfere with the electronics inside the unit, cocking up it's
clock and thus, the heart.

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 35
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:15:11 -0600
Mark Steedman wrote:
|
| > And for heat, you're in the ocean. I would think there would be some
| > way to bleed off heat into the surrounding water (silently).
|
| The problem with dumping large ammounts of heat is there are way to
| detect that. Yes it would be pretty quiet but the first guy to fly a
| infrared satellite over you is going to be laughing (ok not many

Doh. I completely forgot about that. Never mind.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 36
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:35:49 -0600
Gurth wrote:
|
| David Buehrer said on 11:58/ 7 Aug 97...
|
| > If it's being built for a miliary, efficiency isn't an issue ;)
|
| Although you added a smiley, even the military has to have some degree of
| efficiency in its equipment. How high that is, is inversely proportional
| to how bad they think they need it :)

You shoulda been in the US in the 80s :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 37
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:51:08 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-08 09:23:53 EDT, you write:

<< Second, since it's iron-basedit could be magnetically attracted, I'm not
really sure(is there a biochemist or doctor in the house?). >>

According to my friend, the doctor, blood is not magnetically attracted.

-Bandit
Message no. 38
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:54:31 EDT
On Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:57:22 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:

>You lost me on the conductivity.


It was probably a reference to the fact that salt, when dissolved in
water, splits up into lots of sodium and chloride ions (I'm guessing all
salts do about the same thing here), which allow for greater conductivity
because electrons can now jump from ion to ion. It would also make it
easier to move the water, although you could wind up with a lot of ions
collected somewhere if you aren't careful.


>For power, will a cold fusion plant fit on a submarine?


<shrug> all depends on the power capacity of the power plant, but since
the original cold fusion experiments weren't all that big, I'd have to
say yes.


>And for heat, you're in the ocean. I would think there would be some
>way to bleed off heat into the surrounding water (silently).


Sure, you have lots and lots of cold, dark water to function as a really
big heatsink:) Of course, there's what someone mentioned with a satellite
. . .


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 39
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:51:00 GMT
on 06.08.97 westln@***.EDU wrote:

w> A static magnetic field does not offer much chance to damage
w> anything.

Don't forget: The field may be static, but your average sammy moves quite
a lot. :)

w> Also if something tries moving in the magnetic fields, ie gears
w> in an anolog watch they tend not to move. This can cause them to
w> break.
w>
w> Now if you pulse that field or move by incredibly quickly so
w> that it seems to pulse to you, say good bye to unshielded micro
w> electronics, or hello to random errors until the electronic
w> stabalize outside the field again.

You don't have to move quickly. You get a much better induction, if you
do, but if the field is strong enough, even walking will fry your chrome.

w> So if your in a really unfriendly EMF environment, such as a
w> power plant, Power substation, or Radar or radio tower, a little
w> cyber noise might be appropriate.

Well, someone with wired 2 running at 75 kph will probably get a bit
more... :)


so long
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 40
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:20:34 +1000
> w> A static magnetic field does not offer much chance to damage
> w> anything.
>
> Don't forget: The field may be static, but your average sammy moves quite
> a lot. :)
>

It also matters which direction you move through the field; I've worked
around NMR machines, which use magnets of about 4.7 Tesla, and I've
walked right up to them with credit cards in my pockets... They still
worked afterwards.

Of course, I didn't jump up and down in the field.... That probably would
have made the data fall off the magnetic strips.

*grin*


Marty
Message no. 41
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:33:00 GMT
on 07.08.97 W0lfstar@***.COM wrote:

W> > Serious: The induction will most likely damage (see cyberware-damage in
W> > the SSC and Cybertech) the chrome. If the field is strong enough, the
W> > cyberware will be destroyed and (if the field is really strong) the
W> > produced heat (we have a lot of short circuts, remember?) will toast the
W> > char.
W>
W> No go. For saftey, health, and lawsuit reasons, non-ferrous metals are not
W> used. In fact, they aren't used in medical implants right now for the same
W> reasons.

Well, I can kill someone, who has a <thing that animates the heart, whose
English name I don't know> with a microwave-oven. You simply *have* to use
electricity to get the stuff running, and thus you need a conducer (hope
it's the right word). Maybe it's just me, but I can't think of any
conducer that prevents induction (actually, it's not me, but good ol'
physics). You could shield your chrome with a Faraday-cage, but that would
only mean, the induction will take place in the shielding, not in the
cyberware.

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 42
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:14:00 GMT
on 07.08.97 W0lfstar@***.COM wrote:

W> > Excuse me... you're going to implant something that puts you in a
W> > permanent epileptic fit and you're worried about whether it's gonna
W> > RUST?!
W>
W> Excuse me??? Who here's talking about Move-by-Wire systems? I'm talking
W> about cyberware and magnets, and the reasons they wouldn't use ferrous
W> metals. If a ferrous metal inside your body became magnetized, it would
W> attract all the hemoglobin in your bloodstream to it, thereby reducing the
W> amount of oxygen in your bloodstream significantly, as well as forming
W> clots.

????
Just because there is iron in it, doesn't mean you can attract it with a
magnet. If it was that way, I wouldn't get to close to a power plant.
Maybe you will destroy every watch you get afterwards...:)

bye
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 43
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:05:20 +0100
|English name I don't know> with a microwave-oven.

A Pacemaker

|You simply *have* to use
|electricity to get the stuff running, and thus you need a conducer

Conducter?

(hope
|it's the right word). Maybe it's just me, but I can't think of any
|conducer that prevents induction (actually, it's not me, but good ol'
|physics).

Yep. That's why you can get a linear motor set up that will float copper or
aluminium. Try it with a ferrous material, and it would be attracted instead
of repelled...

[This is because the linear motor induces small electric currents in the
aluminium, which in turn create small magnetic fields. These fielfs repel
each other. In iron, the metal itself is attracted to the magnet and
<CLUNK>]

|You could shield your chrome with a Faraday-cage, but that would
|only mean, the induction will take place in the shielding, not in the
|cyberware.

And it'd make walking around a tad difficult....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 44
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:45:00 GMT
on 12.08.97 s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU wrote:

s> It also matters which direction you move through the field; I've worked
s> around NMR machines, which use magnets of about 4.7 Tesla, and I've
s> walked right up to them with credit cards in my pockets... They still
s> worked afterwards.
s>
s> Of course, I didn't jump up and down in the field.... That probably would
s> have made the data fall off the magnetic strips.

Shadowrunning with THE *MASK*:

"Hey Sammy! *Jump*!"
Brzzzzzzt
"*SMOKIN'!!!*"

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 45
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Magnetic Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:42:00 GMT
on 12.08.97 u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK wrote:
u> |English name I don't know> with a microwave-oven.
u>
u> A Pacemaker

So the microwave will be the 'Peacemaker'....SCNR....:)

u> |You simply *have* to use
u> |electricity to get the stuff running, and thus you need a conducer
u>
u> Conducter?

*YES* That's it! (I'm feeling like the owl from 'Simon, the Sorcerer')

[snipped all the nice physics....liked 'em]

u> |You could shield your chrome with a Faraday-cage, but that would
u> |only mean, the induction will take place in the shielding, not in the
u> |cyberware.
u>
u> And it'd make walking around a tad difficult....

Erm, Spike, I thought about creating the cage around the chrome, not the
sammy....(Just imagining a sam running around with a giant cage around
him. Hehe)

bye

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##

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