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From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:45:50 -0600

Message no. 1 :> >Errr...you all realise that, by definition, vision mag and smartlinks
:> >don't work together, don't you? (See vision mag in SSC II.) Of course,
:> >if you want to SWITCH between them, that's all well and good.
:>
:> Okay, maybe I'm just being dense, but how the heck do you figure this?
I
:> just looked in my SSC and it didn't say anything about the two not
working
:> together.
:
:Its in the 2nd Edition of the SSC, not in the older one. But the rule
:makes a reappereance in SR3, too. I think in the Combat Section under
:Vision Magnifications.
:

The SSC Vision magnification systems "worked like scopes". SR2
states, in the description of magnification scopes that they are not
compatible with the bonus from a smartlink.
Neither piece of gear in SR3mentions this, and both reference p.110
for their effect, which also does not mention compatibility w/ smartlinks.
I guess scopes and eye magnification now work together. And here we
thought they were screwing the samurai on speed and combat pool. (They
still are- this just makes them easier to hit!)

Mongoose

From:	Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Wed, 4 Nov 1998 14:41:02 -0500

Message no. 2 At 12:45 PM 11/4/98 -0600, Mongoose wrote:
>:
>:Its in the 2nd Edition of the SSC, not in the older one. But the rule
>:makes a reappereance in SR3, too. I think in the Combat Section under
>:Vision Magnifications.
>:
>
> The SSC Vision magnification systems "worked like scopes". SR2
>states, in the description of magnification scopes that they are not
>compatible with the bonus from a smartlink.
> Neither piece of gear in SR3mentions this, and both reference p.110
>for their effect, which also does not mention compatibility w/ smartlinks.
>I guess scopes and eye magnification now work together. And here we
>thought they were screwing the samurai on speed and combat pool. (They
>still are- this just makes them easier to hit!)

I asked Tom Dowd about this on USENET some years back. What he told me
then was that you can't look through a scope with a smartlink because,
obviously, the smartlink's targeting dot would not get the benefits of the
scope. The same is true the other way around (smartgoggles and vision mag
cyber). HOWEVER, if both systems are cybernetic, then they can interface
and produce an accurately-calibrated targeting dot.

So, theoretically it can work IFF (if and only if) both systems are cyber.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid

From:	Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:43:07 +1000

Message no. 3 >So, theoretically it can work IFF (if and only if) both systems are cyber.

We actually came up with some house rules to get around this situation;
check out http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr/sr/movemods.html

Lady Jestyr

- In the force if Yoda's so strong, then construct a sentence -
- with words in the proper order why can't he? -
- jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr -

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:53:00 +0100

Message no. 4 According to Starjammer, at 14:41 on 4 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> I asked Tom Dowd about this on USENET some years back. What he told me
> then was that you can't look through a scope with a smartlink because,
> obviously, the smartlink's targeting dot would not get the benefits of the
> scope. The same is true the other way around (smartgoggles and vision mag
> cyber). HOWEVER, if both systems are cybernetic, then they can interface
> and produce an accurately-calibrated targeting dot.
>
> So, theoretically it can work IFF (if and only if) both systems are cyber.

Or, I would say, if both systems are non-cyber and integrated into the
same device -- smart goggles with vision mag (as suggested by D. Ghost,
IIRC), or my own design of a telescope with smart circuitry. The smartlink
would know the magnification of the scope and be able to compensate for it
when it projects its targeting dot/crosshairs.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Perjury does not include lying if lying is the
only sensible way to get you out of trouble.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:06:14 +0200

Message no. 5 Gurth said,

Or, I would say, if both systems are non-cyber and integrated into the
same device -- smart goggles with vision mag (as suggested by D.
Ghost,
IIRC), or my own design of a telescope with smart circuitry. The
smartlink
would know the magnification of the scope and be able to compensate
for it
when it projects its targeting dot/crosshairs.

I say,

When I was new to SR and minchkinous in the extreme a friend and I
developed a crazy hybrid smartlink/imagemag system. The reasoning
behind its function was that if we could see cross hairs in our cyber
eye displays why not zoom in on those cross hairs with image
magnification? Odf course the whole system would have to be custom and
use the same comm protocols and was really expensive but hell it
worked.

Only problem was that it was as I said above totally muchkinous.
Imagine the benbefits of Magno3 with the -2 target numbers of a
smartlink :)

Funky no?
BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>
*Executive Engineer* *FrontLine Games*
Yo soy un disco quebrado
Yo tengo chicle en cerebro
sm:)e

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:08:03 +0100

Message no. 6 According to Bruce, at 14:06 on 5 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> Only problem was that it was as I said above totally muchkinous.
> Imagine the benbefits of Magno3 with the -2 target numbers of a
> smartlink :)

I don't really see that as being munchkinous (in fact, 99% of the time,
whether something is munchkinous or not depends a lot more on the player
than on the stuff itself, IMO). And anyway, since vision magnification
cyberware works together with smartlink cyberware you can easily get mag 3
and a -2 TN -- that is, a TN of 2 at all ranges. If you build this sort of
stuff into smart goggles, the best you can get is TN 3 at all ranges
because smart goggles only give a -1, not a -2...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Perjury does not include lying if lying is the
only sensible way to get you out of trouble.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:52:16 +0200

Message no. 7 > Only problem was that it was as I said above totally muchkinous.
> Imagine the benbefits of Magno3 with the -2 target numbers of a
> smartlink :)

Gurth said

I don't really see that as being munchkinous (in fact, 99% of the
time,
whether something is munchkinous or not depends a lot more on the
player
than on the stuff itself, IMO). And anyway, since vision magnification
cyberware works together with smartlink cyberware you can easily get
mag 3
and a -2 TN -- that is, a TN of 2 at all ranges. If you build this
sort of
stuff into smart goggles, the best you can get is TN 3 at all ranges
because smart goggles only give a -1, not a -2...

I say...

I think that T# 2 at all ranges is munchy....

BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>
*Executive Engineer* *FrontLine Games*
Yo soy un disco quebrado
Yo tengo chicle en cerebro
sm:)e

From:	"Jan N. Evensen" <hellfire@*****.ML.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:36:12 +0100

Message no. 8 -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 6. november 1998 13:50
Subject: Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)

>> Only problem was that it was as I said above totally muchkinous.
>> Imagine the benbefits of Magno3 with the -2 target numbers of a
>> smartlink :)
>
>
>Gurth said
>
>I don't really see that as being munchkinous (in fact, 99% of the
>time,
>whether something is munchkinous or not depends a lot more on the
>player
>than on the stuff itself, IMO). And anyway, since vision magnification
>cyberware works together with smartlink cyberware you can easily get
>mag 3
>and a -2 TN -- that is, a TN of 2 at all ranges. If you build this
>sort of
>stuff into smart goggles, the best you can get is TN 3 at all ranges
>because smart goggles only give a -1, not a -2...
>
>I say...
>
>I think that T# 2 at all ranges is munchy....
>
> BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>
>*Executive Engineer* *FrontLine Games*
> Yo soy un disco quebrado
> Yo tengo chicle en cerebro
> sm:)e

Well.......I say it depends on the campaign and the players.....I mean, as a
shadowrunner you would
go for the best equipment you could afford wouldn't you? And so why not SL
and Vis.mag together?
But, it's a kinda powerful combo and should be used with care. One house
rule may be to give an extra +1 mod for each range beyond short, if the
target is moving. (at extreme if target is running, normally +2, now +5)

Jan N. Evensen
A.K.A
HeLLfire

From:	One Ronin <ronin@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:07:33 PST

Message no. 9 >Gurth said
>
>I don't really see that as being munchkinous (in fact, 99% of the
>time,
>whether something is munchkinous or not depends a lot more on the
>player
>than on the stuff itself, IMO). And anyway, since vision >magnification
cyberware works together with smartlink cyberware you >can easily get
mag 3
>and a -2 TN -- that is, a TN of 2 at all ranges. If you build this
>sort of
>stuff into smart goggles, the best you can get is TN 3 at all ranges
>because smart goggles only give a -1, not a -2...

>Bruce said:
>I think that T# 2 at all ranges is munchy....
>

Remeber guys, vision isn't the end-all solution to ranged combat that
you might think it is. Sure, if you are using your heavy pistol and are
zoomed in on the bad guy to where he is in short range, you're
guaranteed to hit. But that means that your field of vision is treated
as though you are only 5 meters away from him. You aren't seeing much
else. This lack of peripheral<sp?> vision makes combat very dangerous.
Also, try looking through a scope or binos with a high mag power, and
paning across an area, the terrain and such is moving so fast, you can't
make sense of anything. To be really effective, a person with the
vision mag would have to spot a target, zoom in, shoot until the target
is down, and then zoom back out to pick another target, then zoom BACK
in......etc. IMNSHO, this would take alot longer than two simle
actions, even if using thought activated cyberware. Also, try tracking
a moving target with Binos or a scope while you are zoomed in really
close to it. It's a son-of-a-bitch. I don't think it's muchy if it is
handled properly, and the appropriate disadvantages are applied. Think
of it this way, if your ass is on the line and you've got the cash,
wouldn't you spend it on a system that would give you a gross advantage
over the other guys? A piece of equipment is only munchy if it is
improperly handled in a role-playing enviroment.

Ronin

Mai mentsu konna mai kikyo.

-ICQ #:11373195

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:14:17 -0800

Message no. 10 > over the other guys? A piece of equipment is only munchy if it is
> improperly handled in a role-playing enviroment.

Nothing in munchkinous in the hands of the right player / GM.
Everything is munchkinous in the hands of the wrong player / GM.

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG Town Hall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site

From:	Cernunnos Morrigu <cmorrigu@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:14:51 -0500

Message no. 11 On 11/6/98, at 12:52 PM, Bruce wrote:

>I think that T# 2 at all ranges is munchy....

Well, what do you expect professional snipers to do? Use inferior
equipment and get higher TN?

Back to biz,
-CM
---
Cernunnos Morrigu | "Summer, check that door!"
cmorrigu@********.net | **BOOM**
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."

From:	Cernunnos Morrigu <cmorrigu@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:17:46 -0500

Message no. 12 On 11/6/98, at 2:36 PM, Jan N. Evensen wrote:

>Well.......I say it depends on the campaign and the players.....I mean, as
a
>shadowrunner you would
>go for the best equipment you could afford wouldn't you? And so why not SL
>and Vis.mag together?
>But, it's a kinda powerful combo and should be used with care. One house
>rule may be to give an extra +1 mod for each range beyond short, if the
>target is moving. (at extreme if target is running, normally +2, now +5)

Doesn't the TN2 suppose that both shooter and target are stationary, and
nothing is is the way, and... point being the TN2 is a BASE, not an
absolute - it gets adjusted for the situation.

also, your reply-to overrides the list

Back to biz,
-CM
---
Cernunnos Morrigu | "Summer, check that door!"
cmorrigu@********.net | **BOOM**
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."

From:	Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:35:34 -0600

Message no. 13 From: Cernunnos Morrigu <cmorrigu@********.NET>
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 11:17 AM

>Doesn't the TN2 suppose that both shooter and target are stationary,
>and nothing is is the way, and... point being the TN2 is a BASE, not
>an absolute - it gets adjusted for the situation.

As someone who's played a character with this combination for a number of
years, I can tell you with some certainty that this is exactly the way it
works.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

From:	Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:40:59 -0800

Message no. 14 > >I think that T# 2 at all ranges is munchy....
>
>
> Well, what do you expect professional snipers to do? Use inferior
> equipment and get higher TN?

They aim. ^_^ honest, it's what they do. Most don't use lasers, and we
don't got links yet.

From:	Cernunnos Morrigu <cmorrigu@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:45:55 -0500

Message no. 15 On 11/6/98, at 10:40 AM, Hatchetman wrote:

>They aim. ^_^ honest, it's what they do. Most don't use lasers, and we
>don't got links yet.

d; I meant SR IC. IF they had them now, that's what they'd be using
(professionally).

Back to biz,
-CM
---
Cernunnos Morrigu | "Summer, check that door!"
cmorrigu@********.net | **BOOM**
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Sat, 7 Nov 1998 11:50:45 +0100

Message no. 16 According to Cernunnos Morrigu, at 12:17 on 6 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> Doesn't the TN2 suppose that both shooter and target are stationary, and
> nothing is is the way, and... point being the TN2 is a BASE, not an
> absolute - it gets adjusted for the situation.

And that's what it looks like many people (GMs and other players) forget --
yes, it's all very fine that your TN is a 2, but not if it's in the rain
in a dark alley at night with the target hiding behind a dumpster with
only one arm and half a head visible to you. That's a 2, is it? Oh, plus
4. And plus 6. Well, what do you know, and another +6...

Can you roll so well against a TN of 18? (Although yesterday Jester rolled
a 41...)

Okay, so this is a bit of an extreme example, but it does show that even
under the standard rules, a base TN of 2 doesn't really mean anything if
the opposition is smart enough not to be caught in the open. If they are,
they deserve what's coming to them; while if you can set things up so that
they can only be caught in the open, you deserve the "reward" of a TN 2, I
feel.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Perjury does not include lying if lying is the
only sensible way to get you out of trouble.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Wed, 9 Dec 1998 03:50:31 +0100

Message no. 17 And so it came to happen that Bruce wrote in reply to Gurth:

> Gurth said
>
> I don't really see that as being munchkinous (in fact, 99% of the
> time,
> whether something is munchkinous or not depends a lot more on the
> player
> than on the stuff itself, IMO). And anyway, since vision magnification
> cyberware works together with smartlink cyberware you can easily get
> mag 3
> and a -2 TN -- that is, a TN of 2 at all ranges. If you build this
> sort of
> stuff into smart goggles, the best you can get is TN 3 at all ranges
> because smart goggles only give a -1, not a -2...
>
> I say...
>
> I think that T# 2 at all ranges is munchy....

Well, please not forget one think mostly forgotten by those players that
use them in munchkinious attempts (the vision mag.):
One cybered dude needs to use his simple action to activate his
cyberware. And as the "bad boys" are not all in the same ranges they
have to swiftly switch their Range settings. This is a handycap, a small
one, but a handycap. And I used it as a GM against those Munchies. They
learned from this and now only use those vision mags if they realy need
to hit that fellow over there badly.

--
---> Steadfast...Selfproclaimed Protector of Gerber BABY's
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Uh, 089 of 200 it states in Gerber BABY...

From:	Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:51:04 -0500

Message no. 18 Quoting Steadfast (laughingman@*******.DE):
> Well, please not forget one think mostly forgotten by those players that
> use them in munchkinious attempts (the vision mag.):
> One cybered dude needs to use his simple action to activate his
> cyberware. And as the "bad boys" are not all in the same ranges they
> have to swiftly switch their Range settings. This is a handycap, a small
> one, but a handycap. And I used it as a GM against those Munchies. They
> learned from this and now only use those vision mags if they realy need
> to hit that fellow over there badly.
>
I can buy this for a scope accessory - maybe even a complex action,
depending. But I'd really have thought changing range settings for cyber-
eyes would be a free action. It requires a single thought, and that's about
it.
YMMV, of course. As a game balance thing, it might be good.

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4

From:	Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject:	Re: Magnification systems (was Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks)
Date:	Wed, 9 Dec 1998 04:03:44 +0100

Message no. 19 And so it came to happen that Sean McCrohan wrote in reply to My humble
self:
>
> Quoting Steadfast (laughingman@*******.DE):

<snip my original post>

> I can buy this for a scope accessory - maybe even a complex action,
> depending. But I'd really have thought changing range settings for cyber-
> eyes would be a free action. It requires a single thought, and that's about
> it.
> YMMV, of course. As a game balance thing, it might be good.

Grhra! Of course you are right and I simple switched free and simple for
reasons I personaly can't imagine. I meant (listen now Listees This is a
correction!)
FREE actions
not
simple actions!
Sorry for confusing some people, but my reply is hopefully fast enough
to minimize permanent brain damage...
;o)
But now, thats the last for tonite, its to late, I post tomorow more of
old Threads I found interesting.

---> Steadfast...Selfproclaimed Protector of Gerber BABY's
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Uh, 089 of 200 it states in Gerber BABY...

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