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Message no. 1
From: "S. Keith Graham" <vapspcx@***.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Major religions in 2055..
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 09:34:15 -0400
I'm not that familiar with the Muslim varients, so I'll pass on
Ivy's comments there. Her comments regarding the Far East sounded
reasonable.

However, she missed on two or three counts that I know of:

#1: Judaism is one of the original foundations of hermetic
magic as is presented in SR. Most of the Quabbilistic (sp?)
teachings had origins in Judaism, or so I'm led to believe.

The more liberal members of the faith are already pretty mellow
on the issues of race, homosexuality, and tolerance of other religions.
They probably will use (and abuse) magic, and accept the meta-races
without much trouble. (Though there are likely to be some fence
sitters for quite some time.)

Even the extreme orthodox religions may actually look on (hermetic)
magic as a "return of the old ways". (Possibly forming a split
in the orthodox faiths.)

Shamanism is probably right out, as you get into the "worship of
idols".

#2: Christianity is going to suffer in the US really badly. The
demonstration that "other paths can show the truth" (in particuliar
Native American) threatens one of the principle foundations of
Christianity. The older generations will stick to their old churches,
but I'm sure that the younger generations will not follow nearly as
much as they do today.

Further, magic is billed, to some degree, as the ultimate source of
power in the SR universe. The more liberal varieties of the Christian
faith will cave in, and accept magic under terms similiar to the
Catholic church. Why? Because the business executives and corp.
employees will need to have magicians on staff/working with them to
succeed in the Awakened world. When confronted with the choice of
disowning all of the members with good paying jobs for "consorting
with devils", or else accepting magic, some of the congregations will
certainly find ministers that accept magic. :-)

Personally, I think it would be suicide to attend a church that regularly
spoke against magic, and had no magic protection. I'm sure some organization
that was attacked by the church's members would eventually blow it away
some Sunday. Being actively anti-magic is not a survival trait in 2055.
Evolution in action and all that.

#3: I'll ask a friend of mine what they think the reaction of the Mormons
would be. They strongly believe in "modern prophets", and magic could
easily get integrated into what I understand of their belief system. (Though
I could be wrong, and let me check with them.)

Last, the million dollar question:

Can you invoke magic using the Christian God or Satan as a totem/
psychological tool?

The folks at FASA didn't include it because of the imMoral Minority's
response, but, could a person that "truely believes" invoke their magic
through those paths? (My initial response is that the faith didn't
exist 6000+ years ago, so no; but then, voodoo is a mixture of lots of
things that sprang into existance in the last 500 years, and most GMs
are willing to accept that works...)

If you allow "Miracles in the Name of the Lord", then things are pretty
radically different than in the SR universe.

Keith Graham
vapspcx@***.gatech.edu
Message no. 2
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Major religions in 2055..
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 20:03:03 +0100
> Last, the million dollar question:
> Can you invoke magic using the Christian God or Satan as a totem/
> psychological tool?
>
> The folks at FASA didn't include it because of the imMoral Minority's
> response, but, could a person that "truely believes" invoke their magic
> through those paths? (My initial response is that the faith didn't
> exist 6000+ years ago, so no; but then, voodoo is a mixture of lots of
> things that sprang into existance in the last 500 years, and most GMs
> are willing to accept that works...)

I absolutely agree, thats the best thing about magic in SR, its
so subjective that you can mold it any fragging way u want.
I dont doubt that there are going to be some fractions of every
church that will reject all magic and will be something like
a religious humanis. But I think that all religions will try to
incorporate magic in their beliefs and systems one way or another.
This allows for some xtremely cool groups. I recently came
across a sourcebook for a system called 'Mutant Chronicles'
it was called 'The Brootherhood' and was about a religious
brotherhood built around the 'Bishop". The bishop was some kind
of mega-mage that believed (claimed) that his powers come from god.
You can imagine that the members where quite cool, as they believed
that they were doing the right thing (maybe they were). They
had this suiside-commando-die-for-your-faith feeling.
The opposite of the group would be quiote cool too, some kind
of magic haters that organiye hits against all sorts of magicusers...
Well what do you think about it?

--

Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS -d+@ -p+(---) c+++ l++ u+++ e+ m++(-) s+/ !n(---) h*(+) f+ !g w+ t+ r++ y?
Message no. 3
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Major religions in 2055..
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 14:56:32 -0400
>>>>> "S" == S Keith Graham <vapspcx@***.GATECH.EDU>
writes:

S> #1: Judaism is one of the original foundations of hermetic
S> magic as is presented in SR. Most of the Quabbilistic (sp?)
S> teachings had origins in Judaism, or so I'm led to believe.

You have been led properly.

S> #2: Christianity is going to suffer in the US really badly. The
S> demonstration that "other paths can show the truth" (in particuliar
S> Native American) threatens one of the principle foundations of
S> Christianity. The older generations will stick to their old churches,
S> but I'm sure that the younger generations will not follow nearly as
S> much as they do today.

Depends on the definition of Christianity you use. The RCC definition of
Christianity is belief that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the Savior
of mankind. The fundamentalist definition is in the abstract notion of
being "born again;" by their definition Roman Catholics are /not/
Christians.

The RCC in Shadowrun is reverting back to its stance on magic that it had
back in the days when it supported alchemy as a valid science.

S> #3: I'll ask a friend of mine what they think the reaction of the
S> Mormons would be. They strongly believe in "modern prophets", and magic
S> could easily get integrated into what I understand of their belief
S> system. (Though I could be wrong, and let me check with them.)

I don't know.

S> Last, the million dollar question:

S> Can you invoke magic using the Christian God or Satan as a totem/
S> psychological tool?

Yes. One word: exorcism. Expounded: using the Christian God as a "crutch"
or source of power to combat a malignant spirit.

\||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||/
== Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox ==
== Pinky: What are we going to do tonight, Brain? ==
==Brain: The same thing we do every night, Pinky, try to take over the world!==
/||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||\
Message no. 4
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Major religions in 2055..
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 17:10:10 -0700
On Mon, 23 May 1994, S. Keith Graham wrote:

> I'm not that familiar with the Muslim varients, so I'll pass on
> Ivy's comments there. Her comments regarding the Far East sounded
> reasonable.

Thank you.

> However, she missed on two or three counts that I know of:

Lots cut for brevity. I copied this post.

Hmmm, well I don't know very much about the jewish faith, so I'll
modify my timeline there.
My version of the christians are in the stage of discovery of the
truth or your second point now.
I may be wrong about the mormons. I know as little about them as
I do about the jews. Please tell me what your friend says. I might
change that part too.

> Can you invoke magic using the Christian God or Satan as a totem/
> psychological tool?

Lots more cut for brevity. What a concept! Changes my whole
timeline if true. I'll have to think on it. BTW, Voudoun actually
*does* talk to (whatevers) that are older than 5,500 years ago. They
have just been confused with later things.
As to the "older deities" coming back, I don't know. I do have
an elder (something- it's open right now as to whether it's a powerful
spirit or a diety) being who has returned in one place, and the German
Sourcebook has *five* of them in it.

> Keith Graham
> vapspcx@***.gatech.edu

Thank you! This is what I posted for. Intelligent discussion!
Between you, Keith, and Gian-Paolo, this has made the argument
worthwhile. I live, and occasionally, I learn. Please tell me what your
mormon friend says. I think that I shall restrict, in *my* world, the
ability to give Power to those deities who are older than the "cold age"
but that idea certainly slowed me down for a while.
Hmmmm, can the old forge god give miracles tho? This one will
take more thought than I can give it this minute. I'll post the changed
world after I work it out.
Thanks again,
Ivy K
Message no. 5
From: Jai Tao <jdfalk@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Major religions in 2055..
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 23:44:38 -0400
I wholeheartedly refuse to get into the religion discussion,
'cause IMHO it doesn't matter enough for me to care. However, I wanted to
drop in a quick fact, and then you can go back to arguing.
The Kabalah (spell as you will, there's no good standard for
translation from Hebraic languages) was originally one of the main books
used by the Jewish people, along with the Torah and the Talmud.
When the Christians came along and tried to stuff all Jewish
knowledge into what is currently called the Old Testament, they purposely
left out all Kabalistic knowledge, assumedly because it sounded too much
like the pagan magic they always tried to supress.
Anybody into New Age stuff should try to get a copy of the Kabalah
and check it out -- it ties most of these supposedly "new" New Age
theories together in an amazingly straightforward fashion, if you can
understand any of it at all.
Message no. 6
From: Chris Lubrecht <lubrecht@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Major religions in 2055..
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 23:59:06 -0400
Question,
was'nt there a magician adept priest in the first SR trilogy(novels)?

Nigel
Message no. 7
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Major religions in 2055..
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 11:58:21 +0100
> I wholeheartedly refuse to get into the religion discussion,
> 'cause IMHO it doesn't matter enough for me to care. However, I wanted to
> drop in a quick fact, and then you can go back to arguing.
> The Kabalah (spell as you will, there's no good standard for
> translation from Hebraic languages) was originally one of the main books
> used by the Jewish people, along with the Torah and the Talmud.

Sorry, but on a matter of accuracy that's incorrect.


> When the Christians came along and tried to stuff all Jewish
> knowledge into what is currently called the Old Testament, they purposely
> left out all Kabalistic knowledge, assumedly because it sounded too much
> like the pagan magic they always tried to supress.
> Anybody into New Age stuff should try to get a copy of the Kabalah
> and check it out -- it ties most of these supposedly "new" New Age
> theories together in an amazingly straightforward fashion, if you can
> understand any of it at all.


There is no one book called the Kabala. There is a book called the Zohar which
kabala is based upon but that's all.
For a matter of accuracy...

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|| ||
|| Micah Levy ||
|| Department of Computer Science ||
|| University College London ||
|| ||
|| http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/people/malevy.html ||
|| M.Levy@**.ucl.ac.uk ||
|| GCS d--@ -p+ c++ l(!) u++ e+ m- s n+ h* f g+(-) w t+ r++ y? ||
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Message no. 8
From: Unix_Kurs7044 <c7044@*****.RZ.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Major religions in 2055..
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 19:13:05 +0200
Okay, I have to add a new aspect to this religion debate ...
1 1/2 years ago I made a campaigne that delt with the questions "Is there
Satan in the Awakened Word?" and "Can a priest do magic only be the power
os his believe?". Of course the campaigne started out complettly different,
and if I can convience myself I will post that on here on the list.
But the relevant thing is this: The Camp. took place mainly in London and
UK, but also in Japan and Seattle. I used a lot of handouts at that time
(made myself), mainly tidbits of NEWS U.K.. In the NEWS UK were articles
about events caused by the runners and other articles (I just had to fill
the page). On of those article was about a theologist and criticist of the
CRR. His name was Martin Creed, and he was thrown out of church because
he stated this thesis: He said "Mana and Magic was always present on Earth,
even the last 5000 years, but only in special regions and in low concentration.
(Temporal and Regional Distribution of Mana - Theory). But through an
incredible force of will or believe it was more than once possible to DO
magic prior to the official date 2011. Jesus Christ was in effect such a
Magician, he did wonders (= used magic) and was able to only by his firm
believe in God.". The Church of course didn't like this thesis and ex-
communinated the good Mr. Creed.
But Creed feared that some groups inside the RCC might not react so "tolerant"
toward his blasphemic statement and try to "get him out of the way". And this
was something Creed could not allow to happen, because he (and friends of him)
found old books, very old books, ... , and they described a kind of demon, per-
haps Satan himself, and how he can achieve access to our world. And this know-
ledge had to be kept secret and in existance. So Creed went "underground" in
London and hid from those fundamentalist groups inside the RCC, constantly
looking for hints to that demon that was described in those OLD BOOKS.
Where the runners came in and what the fate of Creed was is another story,
the popoint is that Martin Creed had to hide like Salman Rushdie in our times.

BTW, I'd like to introduce a knew abbreviation:
DKTCS - don't know the correct spelling; seems to be quite handy some times

ThAnX for Your Precious TiME, Mephisto ==St.Willkofer
Message no. 9
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Major religions in 2055..
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 12:03:24 -0700
Thank you Jai Tao,
I shall get a copy to check with, but it looks like I shall have to
re-write a large part of my timeline.

On Mon, 23 May 1994, Jai Tao wrote:
> The Kabalah (spell as you will, there's no good standard for
> translation from Hebraic languages) was originally one of the main books

Much Good stuff deleted, but I captured it.

> Anybody into New Age stuff should

New age is interesting, but I don't do it.
Ivy K
Message no. 10
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Major religions in 2055..
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 15:20:09 -0500
> Thank you! This is what I posted for. Intelligent
> discussion! Between you, Keith, and Gian-Paolo, this has made the
> argument

Hey! What about me!

<grin>

Oh, and you used Keith twice...

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 11
From: Jai Tao <jdfalk@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Major religions in 2055..
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 01:24:03 -0400
On Tue, 24 May 1994, Micah Levy wrote:

> > The Kabalah (spell as you will, there's no good standard for
> > translation from Hebraic languages) was originally one of the main books
> > used by the Jewish people, along with the Torah and the Talmud.
>
> Sorry, but on a matter of accuracy that's incorrect.
. . .
> There is no one book called the Kabala. There is a book called the Zohar which
> kabala is based upon but that's all.
> For a matter of accuracy...

Please explain further.
Message no. 12
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Major religions in 2055..
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 14:57:59 +0100
On Wed, 25 May 1994 Jai Tao wrote:

> On Tue, 24 May 1994, Micah Levy wrote:
>>> The Kabalah (spell as you will, there>7 > translation from Hebraic
>>>languages) was originally one of the main books
>>> used by the Jewish people, along with the Torah and the Talmud.
>>
>> Sorry, but on a matter of accuracy that's incorrect.
>> There is no one book called the Kabala. There is a book called the Zohar
>> which kabala is based upon but that's all.

>> For a matter of accuracy...
>
>Please explain further.

Okay, to clarify a couple of things.
The 2 main sources for Judaism are the written Torah (consisting of about 35
books including the Bible and Prophets) and the Talmud (Babylonian and
Jeruslam) from which practical Jewish law is taken and which draws from the
Torah.
The Zohar was written in the 16th Century by someone called the Ari. This
was written to enumerate (?) Kabbala in a written form and was done so in
such a fashion that it is impossible to gain anything more than a
superficial impression from reading this as it draws upon all areas of the
Torah and Talmud and a lot of things are not made clear but are left for the
reader to work out themselves.
History/Theology lesson over.

Can we go back to talking about Shadowrun now?

Micah Levy
Message no. 13
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Major religions in 2055..
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 14:22:11 -0700
On Thu, 26 May 1994, Micah Levy wrote:

> On Wed, 25 May 1994 Jai Tao wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 24 May 1994, Micah Levy wrote:
> >>
> >> Sorry, but on a matter of accuracy that's incorrect.
>
> >> For a matter of accuracy...
> >
> >Please explain further.
>
> Okay, to clarify a couple of things.
> The 2 main sources for Judaism are the written Torah (consisting of about 35
>
> Can we go back to talking about Shadowrun now?
>
> Micah Levy
>
Thank you Micah. For *my* SRII game, at least, this 'is' inportant. It
now gives me a reason for jewish acceptance of magics for some of them.

So it pertains, to me anyway. :)

Thank you,

Ivy K
Message no. 14
From: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Major religions in 2055..
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 15:37:43 -0400
| Can you invoke magic using the Christian God or Satan as a totem/
| psychological tool?

Apparently one appearance that air elementals take on is fairly close
to traditional quabbalistic angels, and so are (part of) what they can
do for the magician. And Hume is knowledgeable in the field, so the
person who told me this didn't think it was a coincidence.

FASA will never come out and say this, for all the obvious reasons.

- cks

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