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Message no. 1
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:27:42 +0200
Recently, the PCs in the group I GM for went on a shadowrun to Atlanta
from their native Seattle. They're still there after their Johnson got --
shall we say -- displeased with them and left them.

<Airplane>But that's not important right now.</Airplane> When thinking
about what has happened in the campaign up until now, I (again) came to
the conclusion that it doesn't matter if the setting is Seattle, Atlanta,
or for that matter Helsinki or Mogadishu -- when I GM, all cities are
basically the same. Which makes the point of making the runners travel a
bit, well... unnecessary. I guess this is because I don't live in a city
(not even a small one), and when I visit one I don't go and find the mood
or "flavor" of the place -- IRL, the only real differences I detect
between cities are in the architecture and the public transport.

So, what I'm wondering about, is how other GMs handle this. How do you
make cities unique -- I don't mean what sets Seattle apart from New York,
Tokyo or London, but rather how you set them apart _in_the_game_. Is there
some difference to the way you describe the city, or what you describe of
the city? Or am I looking in the wrong direction here? Any help would be
appreciated :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 2
From: kawaii trunks@********.org
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:40:09 -0400
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
> So, what I'm wondering about, is how other GMs handle this. How do you
> make cities unique -- I don't mean what sets Seattle apart from New York,
> Tokyo or London, but rather how you set them apart _in_the_game_. Is there
> some difference to the way you describe the city, or what you describe of
> the city? Or am I looking in the wrong direction here? Any help would be
> appreciated :)

Well, what I do is take the thing that is singularly most known about the
city, even if it is no longer true, and blow it up a hundred times. It tends
to make my cities rather stereotypical, but my players definitely know the
difference between Seattle, New York, and Berlin. =)

Just as an example, New York supposedly has the highest crime rate in the
country (which is not true anymore. That statistic was from the 1980s.) Esp
with what I've read about New York, I make it like the Barrens, except it is
over-amplified. Cops are in short demand and don't really care. If you don't
come prepared for that, prepared to meet with angry gangers who want a bit
of your cash, and the clothes off your back. =) I give a darker and grittier
atmosphere than I would to a visit to Beantown or Detroit, where the
stronger megacorp influence might keep things nicer and prettier, at least
for the better parts of town..

Since I've started rambling, I'll pause here. =) Tell me if this was in any
way helpful.

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 3
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:40:17 -0600
Gurth wrote:

>So, what I'm wondering about, is how other GMs handle this. How do you
>make cities unique -- I don't mean what sets Seattle apart from New York,
>Tokyo or London, but rather how you set them apart _in_the_game_. Is there
>some difference to the way you describe the city, or what you describe of
>the city? Or am I looking in the wrong direction here? Any help would be
>appreciated :)

I took a que from the adventure Paradise Lost and try make one significant
detail stand out when the characters are in a foreign local. In the case
of Paradise Lost, one of the first things that the PCs notice is that it's
*sunny* in Hawaii :)

I also recommend purchasing the James Bond RPG supplement, Thrilling
Locations. It would only take a little tweaking to convert them to a
shadowrun environment. You can find a fax order form at

http://www.wasatch.com/~shansen/games/bond/faxformjb007.htm

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Wisdom has two parts: having a lot to say, and not saying it."
Message no. 4
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:09:12 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 19 Apr 2000, Gurth wrote:

> So, what I'm wondering about, is how other GMs handle this. How do you
> make cities unique -- I don't mean what sets Seattle apart from New York,
> Tokyo or London, but rather how you set them apart _in_the_game_. Is there
> some difference to the way you describe the city, or what you describe of
> the city? Or am I looking in the wrong direction here? Any help would be
> appreciated :)

This is a good question, and it's one that a lot of GM's have a
problem with (especially if they don't have the opportunity to travel
much). If find that the best thing to do to convey a setting to the
players is not so much to describe the physical setting itself but rather
the people in it. Don't get caught up so much in the city, but talk about
the people. It can be little things that you point out. In New York
City, everyone's in a hurry. People are pushing and shoving and trying to
get to where they're going. In Atlanta, you're in the American South.
Life has its own pace there. If you're used to being in New York City, it
seems like everything's moving like molasses.
Convey this in little ways. Maybe when the characters meet one of
their contacts for a quiet lunch in Atlanta, the service is slow as hell.
The waitress is pleasant and friendly, but she takes her own sweet time.
Take some aspect of the local culture and expand upon it. What happens
when the players get into trouble on a Tokyo subway? What will your Ork
sammy do when one of the "friendly" conductors shoves him onto the train a
little too roughly? (for those of you that haven't experienced the Tokyo
"pushers" it's pretty strange (from a western standpoint), though to the
Japanese, being shoved onto the train warrants a 'thank you', because the
conductor did his job to get you where you're trying to go). Or what if
no one will seat them in a Montreal restaurant because they don't speak
French (or speak an obviously chipped version)?
Realistically, cities are often quite similar. Sure, there are
topographic differences, and you can use these too. When they're in
Cairo or Jerusalem, remind them that it's freaking hot. My players both
loved and hated Saigon. They liked the fact that drugs and electronics
were dirt cheap there, but they hated the fact that it was July and
regularly wearing any armor heavier than form-fitting was inviting heat
stroke. They feel much the same way about Miami (although it's guns and
drugs that are dirt cheap there as opposed to electronics and drugs).
What they like about Miami is the fact that it's just a short distance
from a massive swamp, in which they have hidden a number of bodies.
Right now, they're in England, and are mostly in York and London.
They spend a lot of time on the train (York and London are several hours
removed). They like the climate. If it weren't for the oppressive laws
against mages and the difficulty in acquiring a steady supply of guns,
they'd seriously consider staying. The people have been sort of
stand-offish to them, but they like the fried food (a little cultural
detail that I threw in to let them know they were in a foreign place - the
British [and to some extent the Scottish] seem to fry *everything*). One
of the characters nearly crashed his rented Alfa Romeo because he had
gone for nearly 72 hours without sleep (sustained only by lots of meth)
and in his tiredness forgot about driving on the other side of the road.
When they operated out of Detroit, they had a host of other issues
to think about. Detroit is nearly unique amongst major cities in that
there is virtually *no* mass transit system, thanks almost entirely to the
auto industry. As such, they had a few car-chases that were very nearly
spoiled by bad traffic jams. Further, it always made them budget more
time getting to or from anywhere in the city, and made renting multiple
vehicles to do jobs an absolute necessity.
Between culture, climate, and topography, there's a lot to
distinguish a place. That's what makes travel so interesting. Are the
people friendly? Does it rain all the time? Are there a lot of tall
buildings, or is the city just a mass of low-level urban sprawl spreading
as far as they eye can see? Is getting around easy or a pain in the ass?
Do the locals have any biases for or against the characters' ethnic or
social backgrounds? What's the pace of life like? What do people do in
their off time? What sports are popular? Trying to go anywhere in
downtown Detroit when the Red Wings are playing at the Joe Louis Arena is
a nightmare. Same with trying to go anywhere in Daytona when the NASCAR
races are running.
Use these quirks, these oddities. Put them into your NPC's (their
fixer decides to have his meet in his own personal box at some sporting
event, or the contact's choice of meeting place is one where there is a
cultural or institutional bias against one or more of the characters).
In other words, drive home to them the fact that they "aren't from
around here."

Marc
Message no. 5
From: Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:57:35 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Renouf <renouf@********.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: Making cities unique


>
>

<snip>

> much). If find that the best thing to do to convey a setting to the
> players is not so much to describe the physical setting itself but rather
> the people in it. Don't get caught up so much in the city, but talk about


>From someone who grew up two hours from Atlanta, here's a couple of Southern
tips. If you order tea without specifying otherwise, it will show up iced
and sweet, and probably in a 32oz or larger glass. There is always road
construction on the highways. There are no single syllable words (draw out
the vowel, ie fire is fi-er). Southerners like our fried foods.

Hope this helps some,
Mockingbird
Message no. 6
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:52:34 -0400
>>>Gurth wrote:
[ <snip> So, what I'm wondering about, is how other GMs handle this. How
do you make cities unique -- I don't mean what sets Seattle apart from New
York, Tokyo or London, but rather how you set them apart _in_the_game_. Is
there some difference to the way you describe the city, or what you
describe of the city? Or am I looking in the wrong direction here? Any help
would be appreciated <snip> ]

I've read over some of the other responses to this post and gree with all
of them. I have used all of these tactics to flesh out the settings for my
games. When I first decided to try and breath life into my settings I stuck
to areas that most people already have some preconceptualized image of what
the place looks like. My primary cities in past campaigns were commonly New
Orleans, Las Vegas, New York, and Los Angeles. Most people have some idea
of what these places might be like, so the players' own imagination does a
great deal of the work for you. As you work with settings like this you
eventually learn what sparks the imaginations of the group you play with.

On a similar note you mentioned Atlanta. I visited Atlanta once and, as a
GM, tried very hard to soak in the environment so I could describe it in my
own games. Here are some of my observations of the city.

Lifestyle: The cost of living is lower (as of the present). I found the
people I met to be polite and VERY relaxed. Prostitution is a booming
business in the city (er.. so I hear). I spent a good amount of time in the
clubs around the area, there is a name for the area of the city where most
of the better clubs are, but it escapes me at the moment.

Architecture: The skyline is beautiful, with large buildings. Just minutes
from the city are streets facing wooded areas that contain some great old
southern mansions. One thing I found interesting were a pair of tall
buildings, which someone told me were the "King and Queen buildings" Each
had a structure on top of it that resembled the top of the traditional
chess pieces of the same name. The structures looked to be made of steel
gurders, both were white, and floodlights illuminated them brightly in the
evening. I had a game idea, although I don't know what system I would run
it in, where there were two complete sets of these "chess buildings" across
a much larger, futuristic, Atlanta. I had considered having the buildings
move durring the night, as if two higher forces were playing out a game and
niether could get the upper hand.

Be sure to appeal to each of the players' 5 senses. Describe the smells,
tastes, textures, humidity, what they see, and what they hear. Remind them
of these things through repetition, especially things that would distract
or unnerve them. Get a feel for the cultures that share the city, where
they are, what they do, and how the interact. I am rambling...

Peace,
Aristotle.
Message no. 7
From: Kirk Bennion ktbennion@*******.com
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:30:14 EDT
>From someone who grew up two hours from Atlanta, here's a couple of
>Southern tips. If you order tea without specifying otherwise, it will show
>up iced and sweet, and probably in a 32oz or larger glass. There is always
>road construction on the highways. There are no single syllable words
>(draw out the vowel, ie fire is fi-er). Southerners like our fried foods.

>Hope this helps some,
>Mockingbird

I grew up around the Research Triangle Park in North Carolina so I can tell
you some stories about the South too. Yes your tea comes huges, iced and
sugared. Road construction is on a road you need to use to get somewhere
fast, the single syllables don't exist.
The South is the home of NASCAR, thanks to the prohibition era, It does get
cold in the South, in winter, and it snows sometimes too. The weather is
kind of freaky too. Thunderstorms can happen almost at any time, and at
least in South Carolina(where I'm stationed now) people can't drive for crap
so my insurance is killing me.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 8
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:37:27 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 19 Apr 2000, Kirk Bennion wrote:

> The South is the home of NASCAR, thanks to the prohibition era, It does get
> cold in the South, in winter, and it snows sometimes too. The weather is
> kind of freaky too. Thunderstorms can happen almost at any time, and at
> least in South Carolina(where I'm stationed now) people can't drive for crap
> so my insurance is killing me.

Yeah, and on those rare occurrences where it does snow, people
*really* can't drive for crap. I swear, if a single flake of snow falls
anywhere in Knox county, the entirety of Tennessee comes to a grinding
halt. It's the stupidest thing I've ever seen (but then again, I'm from
West Michigan, where "lake effect" snow makes 24" in a single night a
fairly regular occurrence).

Marc
Message no. 9
From: Yiannakos Yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:20:13 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Renouf" <renouf@********.com>

> Yeah, and on those rare occurrences where it does snow, people
> *really* can't drive for crap. I swear, if a single flake of snow falls
> anywhere in Knox county, the entirety of Tennessee comes to a grinding
> halt. It's the stupidest thing I've ever seen (but then again, I'm from
> West Michigan, where "lake effect" snow makes 24" in a single night a
> fairly regular occurrence).
>
> Marc


My mother and my sister live in Nashville, and they will close school when
they _forecast_ snow, or for a heavy frost. I live in upstate New York, and
I like to go down there and tell people about the last time I remember
school in my town being closed, which was when I was fifteen, it got so cold
that the diesel in the school buses froze.

---D('snhm)
Message no. 10
From: Margaret Lasater mlasater@******.net
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:42:06 -0500
Gurth wrote:

> So, what I'm wondering about, is how other GMs handle this. How do you
> make cities unique -- I don't mean what sets Seattle apart from New York,
> Tokyo or London, but rather how you set them apart _in_the_game_. Is there
> some difference to the way you describe the city, or what you describe of
> the city? Or am I looking in the wrong direction here? Any help would be
> appreciated :)

Based on my experience in RL, it seems there are four basic
areas which differentiate various cities.

Climate
What are the seasons like (cold winters/mild summers versus
mild winters and hot summers). Does it have
pronounced seasons (don't laugh - I live in a place which
barely has seasons at all We have a long, hot summer, a one
month spring and fall and a mild winter. Sometimes the
only way you tell the season is by the date on the
calendar).
Even within a given region, there can be major differences
(e.g. Dallas has hot summers, but it can get moderately cold
in the winter, even snow on occasion; Houston gets about
as hot, but is more humid and has very mild winters.
What is the weather like? Does it rain a lot (like
Seattle),
is it mostly sunny (Phoenix for example), unusual features
like fog (San Francisco for example). What types of storm
activity, e.g. subject to hurricanes, tornadoes (they don't
call it tornado alley for nothing), etc.
What about pollution (despite Shadowruns implications,
pollution will vary by city as the impact of pollution
varies
by climate and physical characteristics.
People notice the weather

Geography
Is it flat or hilly, what is outside of the city (everything
isn't urbanized, although some areas are trying really hard)
forest, plains, croplands. Is it on the coast, on a river
or in the mountains (go from a sea level city to a city
like Denver and you will notice the difference).

Physical Characteristics
How is the city laid out. Is it an older city
with a well defined central business district
(i.e. downtown), or is it a modern, diffuse
city. This factor greatly affects the
character of a city and is largely the
product of the dominate transportation
system when the city "grew up". Sure,
newer construction will blur this feature,
but compare the lay out of Chicago (a rail
city) with Phoenix (a car city) and I
think you'll see the difference.
Where do the rich live, where do the poor
live?
These areas are not all the same.
Highland Park (its in Dallas) is
different from North Dallas, neither
is West Dallas like South Oak Cliff. What
kind of people live there (old rich, yuppies,
ethnic (metatype) makeup). What type of
housing - trendy condos, mansions, run-down
apartments, shanties- makes up the area.
What about the suburbs (FASA
tends to ignore them, but they are a
feature of modern city life, and I don't
think they would vanish easily - and
most suburbs have no desire to be part of
the central city (the residents have no
desire to pay to support the central
city.
What type of Mass Transit, does it even
have a system? Where does it go and not go.
What is the architectural style of the
buildings, what are the landmarks, and what
about the green spaces (e.g. parks) and
landscaping.
What are the major industries? These
can have a significant influence on the
character of a city (or an area) - Silicon
Valley, the Chicago slaughterhouses, Fort
Worth's Stockyards, etc.

Culture
This is the hardest area to quantify, but it
consists of those less tangible things
which give a city its character. Patterns
of speech, food preferences, sports teams
(and their following), holidays (Mardi
Gras in New Orleans), and various behavior
patterns. These can be stereotypical, but
can give a basis for working from - some
cities have a reputation for being
friendly, some less so, some places
seem to live life at a slower paces, other
seem to rush into everything, some are
known for their aggressive drives. These
things really only scratch the surface.
A city's culture derives from a blending
of a city's history, geography, climate,
and other characteristics.

Now all of this can be way more information
than most GMs can really figure out unless
you happen to be familiar with the city,
but figuring out a few key differences can
make a new city seem really different from
the city the characters came from.

Margaret
Message no. 11
From: Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:41:52 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 19 Apr 2000, Gurth wrote:

> So, what I'm wondering about, is how other GMs handle this. How do you
> make cities unique -- I don't mean what sets Seattle apart from New York,
> Tokyo or London, but rather how you set them apart _in_the_game_. Is there
> some difference to the way you describe the city, or what you describe of
> the city? Or am I looking in the wrong direction here? Any help would be
> appreciated :)
>
I describe local landmarks, such as the Hisato-Turner antenna or the Kord
Skyraker in Atlanta. I compound that by giving people a bit of the local
flavor, as most cities have their own culture. Folks in New York are
rude, north americans stand out in London etc. I'm sure I'm not accurate
all the time but it's fun to guess.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet services.
Frankfort Lawrenceburg Shelbyville Owenton Louisville
http://www.fark.com: If it's not news, it's fark.
Message no. 12
From: Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:43:40 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 19 Apr 2000, Marc Renouf wrote:

> Yeah, and on those rare occurrences where it does snow, people
> *really* can't drive for crap. I swear, if a single flake of snow falls
> anywhere in Knox county, the entirety of Tennessee comes to a grinding
> halt. It's the stupidest thing I've ever seen (but then again, I'm from
> West Michigan, where "lake effect" snow makes 24" in a single night a
> fairly regular occurrence).
>
Same here in Kentucky, in fact they sometimes cancel school on the
_threat_ of snow.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet services.
Frankfort Lawrenceburg Shelbyville Owenton Louisville
http://www.fark.com: If it's not news, it's fark.
Message no. 13
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 08:42:02 -0700
> From: Margaret Lasater <mlasater@******.net>

>
> Based on my experience in RL, it seems there are four basic
> areas which differentiate various cities.
>

<snip descriptions of climate, geography, physical
characteristics, and culture>

Here's an idea that occurred to me while I was reading this
and the other posts: We have representatives of a whole
lot of cities all over the world on this list, right?
If enough folks would find it useful for their games,
perhaps it might be worthwhile to come up with a set of
standard questions/criteria that would be helpful to GMs,
then invite people to fill them in for the cities they're
familiar with. If this was all gathered together (I'm not
necessarily volunteering, mind you, but who knows? :) it
might make a good resource for GMs to use as a jumping-off
point.

Any interest?

Just to get started, here are a few snippets about the area
I'm familiar with, the Silicon Valley (San Jose and surrounding
areas, California):

Climate: Usually mild. Rains some during the winter and early
spring, but mostly sunny and quite nice. Can get very hot in
the summer.

Geography: I'll leave this to someone else. I never paid much
attention to it. We have mountains, but most of San Jose seems
pretty flat to me. :)

Physical characteristics: Very crowded, cost of living is very
high. Lots of wealth in the area, from the little enclaves of
Saratoga, Los Altos, Los Gatos, etc. to the mini-mansions of the
software stock option millionaire types. Several major freeways
but traffic is a nightmare, especially at rush hour. Physically
very sprawled, with inadequate public transportation.

Culture: Addicted to stress. :) Very fast-moving, instant
gratification kind of culture. Casual as opposed to formal.
As more and more software folks move in and housing prices
get higher, it's becoming something of a crisis that "regular"
folks like policemen and teachers can't afford to live here.
Even the rents are getting too high for many people. Many
different ethnicities and exposure to many different cultures,
cuisines, lifestyles. Constantly in motion, constantly changing.
Very toy-obsessed.

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<
Message no. 14
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:19:06 +0200
According to Rat, at 8:42 on 20 Apr 00, the word on the street was...

> Here's an idea that occurred to me while I was reading this
> and the other posts: We have representatives of a whole
> lot of cities all over the world on this list, right?

And areas that are not in cities :)

> If enough folks would find it useful for their games,
> perhaps it might be worthwhile to come up with a set of
> standard questions/criteria that would be helpful to GMs,
> then invite people to fill them in for the cities they're
> familiar with.

That's a very good idea, which would certainly be useful to me personally,
and I guess to plenty of others as well. Unfortunately I don't have much
to contribute, unless an entry for Dutch Agricultural Area/Tourist Resort
will come in handy...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: GuayII@***.com GuayII@***.com
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 03:10:12 EDT
In a message dated Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:46:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Rat
<winterhawk@*********.net> writes:

<snip>
> Just to get started, here are a few snippets about the area
> I'm familiar with, the Silicon Valley (San Jose and surrounding
> areas, California):

As a person living in the cesspool known as San Jose I can add to Rat's description...

> Geography: I'll leave this to someone else. I never paid much
> attention to it. We have mountains, but most of San Jose seems
> pretty flat to me. :)

The Silicon Valley is...well...in a valley. :) Mountains (at least what passes for them)
to the east and west, marshes to the north (and then the Bay). The ecosystem (what's not
covered by urban development) is chaparrel.
>
> Physical characteristics: Very crowded, cost of living is very
> high. Lots of wealth in the area, from the little enclaves of
> Saratoga, Los Altos, Los Gatos, etc. to the mini-mansions of the
> software stock option millionaire types. Several major freeways
> but traffic is a nightmare, especially at rush hour. Physically
> very sprawled, with inadequate public transportation.

When ever I imagine the sprawl of Seattle, I always think of this area. The only real way
to tell that you've entered a new city is by the signs stating the city, population, and
elevation. San Jose's population alone is over 900,000 people today. The night life is
nothing to get excited over. Frankly, when compared to Europe, it sucks. Alcohol can't be
sold after 2am (which means all the clubs promptly close at 2). I don't see this changing
at all by the time 2060 rolls around.

Cash
Message no. 16
From: Achille Autran aautran@*************.fr
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:28:31 +0200
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 08:42:02 -0700
From: Rat <winterhawk@*********.net>

> Here's an idea that occurred to me while I was reading this
> and the other posts: We have representatives of a whole
> lot of cities all over the world on this list, right?
> If enough folks would find it useful for their games,
> perhaps it might be worthwhile to come up with a set of
> standard questions/criteria that would be helpful to GMs,
> then invite people to fill them in for the cities they're
> familiar with. If this was all gathered together (I'm not
> necessarily volunteering, mind you, but who knows? :) it
> might make a good resource for GMs to use as a jumping-off
> point.
>
> Any interest ?

MUCH interest ! However this list doesn't seems to be the best place for
this kind of discussion, I suggest to move it to the SCR list. A
compendium of short descriptions and feeling of cities worldwide would
be a great thing, IMO.
Message no. 17
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:41:32 +0200
According to Achille Autran, at 13:28 on 25 Apr 00, the word on the street
was...

> MUCH interest ! However this list doesn't seems to be the best place for
> this kind of discussion, I suggest to move it to the SCR list.

IMHO (and I'm not out to sound negative here...) all it would add to SCR
would be another project that'll never get finished. Much better to have a
bunch of posts on ShadowRN that interested listmembers can save, or look
up in the logs.

> A compendium of short descriptions and feeling of cities worldwide would
> be a great thing, IMO.

Me too, though to be useful for SR the posts would have to reflect the
place in the 2050s/60s -- don't describe what it looks like today,
describe what you think it'd be like in 2060 (which can be much the same
as today for anything of which you don't know whether it will change over
the next half-century :)

--
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Message no. 18
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:58:13 -0600
At 13:28 4/25/00 +0200, Achille Autran wrote:

>MUCH interest ! However this list doesn't seems to be the best place for
>this kind of discussion, I suggest to move it to the SCR list.

As Gurth said, that's probably not a wise idea. With Wolfstar just not
having the time to direct traffic, it will probably just be another list of
things on the TODO list.

However, if a set of "wanted" data (Demographics, landmarks, notable
historic events, common languages, climate, etc) was hashed up, a web-form
for submitting the data and a couple web pages for browsing it would
suffice nicely.

If enough stuff did get submitted it could be worked into a more
useable/printable format, but this strikes me more as a "quick reference"
piece that you would look at once in while when you needed it.

Worth it? If so, start hashing out the "standard" set of wanted data. :-)

Adam
--
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Message no. 19
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:13:04 -0700
Gurth wrote:

>
> Me too, though to be useful for SR the posts would have to reflect the
> place in the 2050s/60s -- don't describe what it looks like today,
> describe what you think it'd be like in 2060 (which can be much the same
> as today for anything of which you don't know whether it will change over
> the next half-century :)
>


Well...I respectfully disagree, especially if we want to get
anything accomplished with this. :)

My suggestion was that people who were familiar with various
could write up a little description (perhaps answering some
standardized questions) about the city as it is *now*--which has
the added advantage that the person doesn't have to spend a lot
of time on it. GMs can then take that information and "massage"
it to fit with their worlds and their timeframe. I wasn't looking
for SR-specific material with my suggestion, just following up
on someone's post about playing rarely-visited cities in a rather
'stereotypical' fashion to make it easier on the GM.

I, for example, could go on for quite awhile about the Silicon
Valley circa 2000, but ask me to extrapolate that 50-60 years
into the future and I'm probably not going to want to expend that
much brainpower on the question. I suspect that, realistically
speaking, others might feel the same.

--Rat

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Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
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Message no. 20
From: Achille Autran aautran@*************.fr
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 03:31:05 +0200
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 11:58:13 -0600
From: Adam J <adamj@*********.html.com>

> >MUCH interest ! However this list doesn't seems to be the best place for
> >this kind of discussion, I suggest to move it to the SCR list.
>
> <snip "not SCR" thingy>
> However, if a set of "wanted" data (Demographics, landmarks, notable
> historic events, common languages, climate, etc) was hashed up, a web-form
> for submitting the data and a couple web pages for browsing it would
> suffice nicely.

Submitting/collecting data ? Web pages ? That would be nice, but I won't
do this because
i) I just don't have the time.
ii) HTML ? Whatzat ? Can I program markov chains with it ? Can I use my
old Fortran procedures ? Does it handle massive parallel architecture ?
:-\
That's why I pointed to SCR: it seemed a good gathering/editing place.
But if Wolfstar is way too busy...

> If enough stuff did get submitted it could be worked into a more
> useable/printable format, but this strikes me more as a "quick reference"
> piece that you would look at once in while when you needed it.

It could sparkle plenty of scenario ideas too. I just love to make my
players travel, but often I don't know squat about places and cities
where I intent to drive them. With this you could just read and decide
the background for the next run.

> Worth it? If so, start hashing out the "standard" set of wanted data. :-)

*Achille starts hashing around erratically.
Data feels safe.*

Ah, found one. Presence/absence of special force troopers wearing power
armors and firing smartlinked bows, which is something that
-objectively- they consider as art.

*Data feels definitely safe*
Message no. 21
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:42:06 -0600
At 03:31 4/27/00 +0200, Achille Autran wrote:

>> <snip "not SCR" thingy>
>> However, if a set of "wanted" data (Demographics, landmarks, notable
>> historic events, common languages, climate, etc) was hashed up, a web-form
>> for submitting the data and a couple web pages for browsing it would
>> suffice nicely.
>
>Submitting/collecting data ? Web pages ? That would be nice, but I won't
>do this because
>i) I just don't have the time.
>ii) HTML ? Whatzat ? Can I program markov chains with it ? Can I use my
>old Fortran procedures ? Does it handle massive parallel architecture ?
>:-\

That's why I said a "web form". Somebody writes the web form and the
database that sits behind you. Visitors visit, fill out a form, hit
"submit", and the information gets saved in the database. No HTML knowledge
required, no web space (for the submitter) needed.

The submission process would take no longer than typing up a post to SCR or
any other mailing list.

Adam
< http://shadowrun.html.com/tss / adamj@*********.html.com / UIN 2350330>
Message no. 22
From: Achille Autran aautran@*************.fr
Subject: Making cities unique
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 02:36:49 +0200
> That's why I said a "web form". Somebody writes the web form and the
> database that sits behind you. Visitors visit, fill out a form, hit
> "submit", and the information gets saved in the database. No HTML knowledge

> required, no web space (for the submitter) needed.
>
> The submission process would take no longer than typing up a post to SCR or
> any other mailing list.
>
> Adam

Oh, I misunderstood your former post. I tought you suggested I -me-
should put up a web page for everyone to submit. This is beyond my
abilities and free time. I can however do the word-processing/editing
step and gladly help in the project.

Well, anybody volunteering to write and host those web forms ?

As for wanted data/presentation, first attempt:

1- Landscape, climate:
Hills, sea, winds and weather, etc. Polution.

2- Physical characteristics:
How the city is organized. Major neighbourhoods, characteristic
buildings, monuments, parcs that strike the eye; density of buildings,
street crowding. Broad demographics.

3- Culture/Feeling of the city:
For me the most important part. How do people behave among
themselves, toward strangers. Do they use special words, have a weird
accent. What differentiate them from the casual 'heart-of-market' man.
Basically, roleplaying ideas to fletch out denizens.
Also, what special feeling does the city bear and create. Wretchedness,
despair, self-satisfied happiness, this very speciel portuary feeling...

4- Picture reference:
A few stable web sites with pictures and maps of the city.

For the document itself: rather short (300-500 signs) (too short ?). I
suggest description at actual time, with changes in 2060 added <in
brackets>.
e.g. "Marseille center is constituted of 4 to 6 stories buildings made
of beige stone <except for the towering icy shape of Esprit Industries
Headquarters>."

Describing rather plain city suburbs is unnecessary. As Marc said, most
cities look similar. However, we (at least me) use cliche or basic
knowledge to differentiate them, for places we don't know about. But
reality is most often richer and can bring way more disorientation.
That should be the guideline, IMHO.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Making cities unique, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!