Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu
Subject: Mana
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 06:57:32 -0600 (CST)
I don't know if these questions were addressed before or were brought up
in MiTS...

Let's start by making sure what I 'know' is correct:
1) Mana is the stuff that mages draw on to create their spells.
2) The 'manasphere' is the energy field around the Earth in which mages
can cast spells and astrally project.
3) Mana is created by living beings.

Those correct? Hope so, because my question is based off of it:
What evidence of mana is there on the physical plane? Any? I know SR3 has
furthered the gap between the physical and astral planes, but if that's
true, then shouldn't there by a physical-plane manifestation of the mana
created by living beings?

This mana touched animals and awakened dormant genes in them, created the
various new species, which means that mana /does/ touch the physical
realm...so can it be detected by mundanes?


-Jared Leisner
Message no. 2
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: Mana
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:41:12 +1000
At 06:57 23/08/99 -0600 leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu wrote
>This mana touched animals and awakened dormant genes in them, created the
>various new species, which means that mana /does/ touch the physical
>realm...so can it be detected by mundanes?
>
>-Jared Leisner

Simple answer, No.

____________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
____________________________________
Message no. 3
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: Mana
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 07:05:27 -0700
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 06:57:32 leisnj48 wrote:

>This mana touched animals and awakened dormant genes in them, created the
>various new species, which means that mana /does/ touch the physical
>realm...so can it be detected by mundanes?

While I agree with your views, this is where I start to disagree. :) I don't think mana
touches the physical realm (please let me know if I am wrong). I see mana as existing on
the astral plane and affecting beings from there. I don't think mana exists on the
physical plane. One could argue that mana is brought from the astral to the physical when
a spell is cast and it "goes off" on its target, etc. But that would be the
only instance when mana would be present physically (and even then you would see the side
effects of the spell, not the mana itself).

This is all IMO.

>-Jared Leisner

Justin


--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Message no. 4
From: leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu
Subject: Mana
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:43:33 -0600 (CST)
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Kelson wrote:

> While I agree with your views, this is where I start to disagree. :) I
> don't think mana touches the physical realm (please let me know if I am
> wrong). I see mana as existing on the astral plane and affecting beings
> from there. I don't think mana exists on the physical plane. One could
> argue that mana is brought from the astral to the physical when a spell
> is cast and it "goes off" on its target, etc. But that would be the
> only instance when mana would be present physically (and even then you
> would see the side effects of the spell, not the mana itself).

I'm not saying that mana should be some green mist everyone can see, but
might it not be like magnatism? Invisible, but affecting the world?

Question: If mana exists only in the astral plane and can only be brought
over by a mage...how did people goblinize? They weren't mages, yet the
mana cycle caused them to change.

It seems to me that this is a bit of an inconsistency (yeah, I know I
murdered the spelling). I don't have MiTS, so I don't know all of the new
points of magic in SR3, but could someone answer my question and explain
away the incon*cough*y that I see?


-Jared Leisner
Message no. 5
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: Mana
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:39:51 -0700
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:43:33 leisnj48 wrote:
>I'm not saying that mana should be some green mist everyone can see, but
>might it not be like magnatism? Invisible, but affecting the world?

It's not quite the same. It's not invisible, it just doesn't exist on the physical plane.

>Question: If mana exists only in the astral plane and can only be brought
>over by a mage...how did people goblinize? They weren't mages, yet the
>mana cycle caused them to change.

See below.

>It seems to me that this is a bit of an inconsistency (yeah, I know I
>murdered the spelling). I don't have MiTS, so I don't know all of the new
>points of magic in SR3, but could someone answer my question and explain
>away the incon*cough*y that I see?

Sure. You're missing one vital detail. All living beings have auras (which exist solely
on the astral plane). Mana can affect them via their auras. So, the mana passes through
your aura and causes you to goblinize. Voila! :) This also works with the astral
template theory. The mana interacts with your aura and "goblinizes" it. Then
your body changes to conform to its aura.

Make sense? :)

>-Jared Leisner

Justin


--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Message no. 6
From: leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu
Subject: Mana
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:51:07 -0600 (CST)
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Kelson wrote:

> Sure. You're missing one vital detail. All living beings have auras
> (which exist solely on the astral plane). Mana can affect them via
> their auras. So, the mana passes through your aura and causes you to
> goblinize. Voila! :) This also works with the astral template theory.
> The mana interacts with your aura and "goblinizes" it. Then your body
> changes to conform to its aura.
>
> Make sense? :)

No, it doesn't. Page 173 of SR3 (under 'Astral Detection') says that
projecting mages (those who are /on/ the Astral Plane) can pass through
other peoples' auras. Now, if your aura were on the Astral Plane, then
they couldn't do this. Passing through another's aura insinuates that the
other's aura is only a shadow there, not really present.

See the problem I have? There wasn't this problem on SR2 because it was
implied (if not said) that living auras can't pass through each other.


-Jared Leisner

P.S. I understood what you're saying when it was SR2, but SR3 changed the
rules, and now the explanations don't make sense.
Message no. 7
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: Mana
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:29:40 -0700
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:51:07 leisnj48 wrote:

>No, it doesn't. Page 173 of SR3 (under 'Astral Detection') says that
>projecting mages (those who are /on/ the Astral Plane) can pass through
>other peoples' auras. Now, if your aura were on the Astral Plane, then
>they couldn't do this. Passing through another's aura insinuates that the
>other's aura is only a shadow there, not really present.

>See the problem I have? There wasn't this problem on SR2 because it was
>implied (if not said) that living auras can't pass through each other.

You're making things harder than they need to be. In SR3 auras still exist on the astral
plane - the only difference is that you can pass through them (unlike SR2). Now, you can
only NOT pass through astrally active beings.

>-Jared Leisner

>P.S. I understood what you're saying when it was SR2, but SR3 changed the
>rules, and now the explanations don't make sense.

What's made this confusing is that you're still under the belief that in SR3 auras still
can't be passed through. They can now. That's what's changed. They still exist on the
astral, etc.

Justin :)


--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Message no. 8
From: leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu
Subject: Mana
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:38:46 -0600 (CST)
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999, Kelson wrote:

> You're making things harder than they need to be. In SR3 auras still
> exist on the astral plane - the only difference is that you can pass
> through them (unlike SR2). Now, you can only NOT pass through astrally
> active beings.

I do what I can. *smile* Gotta keep you guys sharp.

> >P.S. I understood what you're saying when it was SR2, but SR3 changed the
> >rules, and now the explanations don't make sense.
>
> What's made this confusing is that you're still under the belief that
> in SR3 auras still can't be passed through. They can now. That's
> what's changed. They still exist on the astral, etc.

I know they can be passed through...I'm just a little confused (there's
that word again!) by the contradiction.

Everyone has an aura, and that aura is on the astral
plane, so people can be affected by the mana cycles
(enter using magicand goblinzation).
Projecting mages can pass through auras, which
implies that non-active auras aren't substantial
on the Astral Plane, which hints that they're
not fully there.
Mana cycles can affect auras, but mages focusing
mana can't affect auras of those who aren't active
on the Astral Plane.

Does anyone else see the problem I see? I understand the rules, for the
game's sake...but the story behind doesn't fully jive.


-Jared Leisner
Message no. 9
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: Mana
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:29:55 +0200
> >No, it doesn't. Page 173 of SR3 (under 'Astral Detection') says that
> >projecting mages (those who are /on/ the Astral Plane) can pass through
> >other peoples' auras. Now, if your aura were on the Astral Plane, then
> >they couldn't do this. Passing through another's aura insinuates that the
> >other's aura is only a shadow there, not really present.
>
> >See the problem I have? There wasn't this problem on SR2 because it was
> >implied (if not said) that living auras can't pass through each other.
>
> You're making things harder than they need to be. In SR3 auras still
exist on the astral plane - the only difference is that you can pass through
them (unlike SR2).
> Now, you can only NOT pass through astrally active beings.

Wait a minute,...so you can pass through something/someone's aura, and you
can pass through a living thing. I figure that,...so what about plants? I
mean, wasn't it a favorite trick to let a building be overgrown with weeds
and bushes so that none could pass through it while astrally projecting? I
kinda always thought that it was because of the aura thing.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 10
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: Mana
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:41:03 -0700
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:29:55 Dennis Steinmeijer wrote:

>Wait a minute,...so you can pass through something/someone's aura, and you
>can pass through a living thing. I figure that,...so what about plants? I
>mean, wasn't it a favorite trick to let a building be overgrown with weeds
>and bushes so that none could pass through it while astrally projecting? I
>kinda always thought that it was because of the aura thing.

That was SR2. SR3 changed it to where you could pass through auras and living beings, but
you can't pass through dual natured beings still.

>Dennis

Justin


--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Message no. 11
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: Mana
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:49:29 -0700
On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:38:46 leisnj48 wrote:

>I know they can be passed through...I'm just a little confused (there's
>that word again!) by the contradiction.

Once you realize that there's no contradiction, you won't be confused anymore. ;)

>Everyone has an aura, and that aura is on the astral
> plane, so people can be affected by the mana cycles
> (enter using magicand goblinzation).

Check.

>Projecting mages can pass through auras, which
> implies that non-active auras aren't substantial
> on the Astral Plane, which hints that they're
> not fully there.

No. This is where you are making a false assumption. Just because you can pass through
someone's aura doesn't mean it isn't there (or isn't fully there). It's still there.
It's just that you can pass through them. That's it. Don't read too much into it.

>Mana cycles can affect auras, but mages focusing
> mana can't affect auras of those who aren't active
> on the Astral Plane.

This is a moot point. Just because a mana cycle can affect someone doesn't mean that a
magician can use mana to the same end. Magicians simply aren't capable of doing what our
gaiasphere can. ;) There's no contradiction there. Mana affects all living things.
Mana only exists on the astral plane. Thus, mana affects all living things from the
astral plane. Whether a magcian can do so is moot. It's irrelevant to the argument.

>Does anyone else see the problem I see? I understand the rules, for the
>game's sake...but the story behind doesn't fully jive.

The story makes sense to me. But I haven't converted to SR3 yet for other reasons.

>-Jared Leisner

Justin


--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Message no. 12
From: GreyWolf sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: Mana
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:58:04 +1000
leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu wrote:

> Everyone has an aura, and that aura is on the astral

> plane, so people can be affected by the mana cycles
> (enter using magicand goblinzation).

Buzzz.. wrong. Auras can be "Seen" from the astral only. Think of them being a
stencil of the person on the boundry between the astral and the physical. When a
creature or mage goes astrally active, think of it as though they are stepping
half in and half out of the astral plane. The astral and physical planes both
coexist... but think of them as parralel pieces of paper... that could help.

> Projecting mages can pass through auras, which
> implies that non-active auras aren't substantial
> on the Astral Plane, which hints that they're
> not fully there.

yes and no. As stated above an easy way of thinking of them would be a stencil
on the boundry between the astral and physical. Like a door is part of the
wall.. the aura lets the magic through to the person who is on the physical (and
in the case of astrally active persona's - lets then through to the astral).

> Mana cycles can affect auras, but mages focusing
> mana can't affect auras of those who aren't active
> on the Astral Plane.

No.. thats because they are like closed doors. They can be seen, but dont let
anything through.

> Does anyone else see the problem I see? I understand the rules, for the
> game's sake...but the story behind doesn't fully jive.

did my explaination help at all?

*Greywolf begins work at MIT&T as a thaumaturgical expert*

GreyWolf


--
"I don't know, Scotty. Maybe it's just the _idea_ of an inflatable
rubber starship that bothers me."
Message no. 13
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Mana
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 02:02:50 EDT
In a message dated 8/23/1999 10:14:41 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
sparrow@***.net.au writes:

>
> *Greywolf begins work at MIT&T as a thaumaturgical expert*
>
*Only to have his charter immediately revoked because of severely
inconsistent attitudes which are non-generative to a paying student body.*
;-P
Message no. 14
From: leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu
Subject: Mana
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 01:34:35 -0600 (CST)
On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 Ereskanti@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/23/1999 10:14:41 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> sparrow@***.net.au writes:
>
> >
> > *Greywolf begins work at MIT&T as a thaumaturgical expert*
> >
> *Only to have his charter immediately revoked because of severely
> inconsistent attitudes which are non-generative to a paying student body.*
> ;-P

Which means...what, exactly? He runs naked through the quad, or something?


-Curious George
Message no. 15
From: leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu
Subject: Mana
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 01:30:00 -0600 (CST)
On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, GreyWolf wrote:

> leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu wrote:
>
> > Everyone has an aura, and that aura is on the astral
>
> > plane, so people can be affected by the mana cycles
> > (enter using magicand goblinzation).
>
> Buzzz.. wrong. Auras can be "Seen" from the astral only. Think of them
being a
> stencil of the person on the boundry between the astral and the physical. When a
> creature or mage goes astrally active, think of it as though they are stepping
> half in and half out of the astral plane. The astral and physical planes both
> coexist... but think of them as parralel pieces of paper... that could help.

Ok, I understand the theory of the astral plane. But I was just repeated
what Kenson(?) said to me. Why didn't you 'buzz' him?

And if you're right, then that makes the problem even bigger! That means
mundanes can't be touched (or touch) the astral plane...which means none
of them should have goblinized.

*sigh* I'm so confused now. I thought I knew what I was saying when I
started.


-Jared Leisner
Message no. 16
From: Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Mana
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:53:30 +0200
<big snip for Marc>
>Everyone has an aura, and that aura is on the astral
> plane, so people can be affected by the mana cycles
> (enter using magicand goblinzation).
>Projecting mages can pass through auras, which
> implies that non-active auras aren't substantial
> on the Astral Plane, which hints that they're
> not fully there.
>Mana cycles can affect auras, but mages focusing
> mana can't affect auras of those who aren't active
> on the Astral Plane.

Substantial? On the Astral that word takes on other meanings, if
it has relevance at all.
- + - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za> -

MiX it UP!
Message no. 17
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Mana
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 03:13:12 EDT
In a message dated 8/23/99 10:31:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dv8@********.nl
writes:

> Wait a minute,...so you can pass through something/someone's aura, and you
> can pass through a living thing. I figure that,...so what about plants? I
> mean, wasn't it a favorite trick to let a building be overgrown with weeds
> and bushes so that none could pass through it while astrally projecting? I
> kinda always thought that it was because of the aura thing.

Yeeeup, but that was only under SR2. Now in SR3, unless its Awakend Kudzu, a
plant which is dual natured, that Ivy over the house doesnt do bubkis
Message no. 18
From: leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu
Subject: Mana
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 02:23:00 -0600 (CST)
I found it! May I direct your attention to SR3, p 161, 4th paragraph:

"Mana, magic essence itself, flows from the metaplanes into our physical
world and through it to the astral."

Sha-BAAM! See? Mana does enter the physical realm. It can't be
seen/tasted/touched, but Awakened people (those with a certain gene
activated) can manipulate it.

Magnetism and gravity can't be seen/tasted/touched, but they can be
manipulated by certain things.

Mana affects mundanes (goblinization), which means that it is there.

So! Is it /possible/ to detect mana in the physical realm (with the
equivelent of a Geiger counter, or something)? Think of the possibilites
of this! If a corp could figure this out and keep it a secret, they'd
have security that no one else could match! They leave sensors around, if
a mage creeps by, the alarm's triggered and they send a team to
investigate.

Of course, watch someone else pull a quote from MitS and open a can a
whoop-ass on my case...Come on, where is it?


-Jared Leisner
Message no. 19
From: Sidhe tirnanog@****.com
Subject: Mana
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 05:50:52 -0700
|I found it! May I direct your attention to SR3, p 161, 4th paragraph:
|
|"Mana, magic essence itself, flows from the metaplanes into our physical
|world and through it to the astral."
|
|Sha-BAAM! See? Mana does enter the physical realm. It can't be
|seen/tasted/touched, but Awakened people (those with a certain gene
|activated) can manipulate it.

<SNIP>

|So! Is it /possible/ to detect mana in the physical realm (with the
|equivelent of a Geiger counter, or something)? Think of the possibilites
|of this! If a corp could figure this out and keep it a secret, they'd
|have security that no one else could match! They leave sensors around, if
|a mage creeps by, the alarm's triggered and they send a team to
|investigate.
|-Jared Leisner


here is my quote from MitS <smirking grin>

well, physical adepts can buy the power of "Magic Sense" and with that power can
"sense magical energies and effects" (page 150, MitS).

not exactly what you had in mind i think but possibly good enough. pretty self
explanatory. as a gm i would rule that you cannot sense 'mana' itself but you
can sense the use of mana (casting or sustaining a spell, using an adept power)
or items that can use, or are using, mana (various foci whether they are active
or not).

i would say the power does not extend to sensing spirits, elementals or astrally
present beings.

anything else you all can think of that this power would work for?

----------------------
k. david hayes
tirnanog@****.com
rook_aerie@*******.com
----------------------
"Snarf!"
----------------------
Message no. 20
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: Mana
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 06:37:29 -0700
On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 02:23:00 leisnj48 wrote:

>I found it! May I direct your attention to SR3, p 161, 4th paragraph:

>"Mana, magic essence itself, flows from the metaplanes into our physical
>world and through it to the astral."

Coolness. I'm glad you found a quote about this.

>Sha-BAAM! See? Mana does enter the physical realm. It can't be
>seen/tasted/touched, but Awakened people (those with a certain gene
>activated) can manipulate it.

Ah, but here's where things get gray again. I believe that the mana that is manipulated
is on the Astral Plane. So, the mana on the physical plane probably wouldn't be affected
by spellcasting, etc.

>So! Is it /possible/ to detect mana in the physical realm (with the
>equivelent of a Geiger counter, or something)? Think of the possibilites
>of this! If a corp could figure this out and keep it a secret, they'd
>have security that no one else could match! They leave sensors around, if
>a mage creeps by, the alarm's triggered and they send a team to
>investigate.

If this is what you want to do - go for it.

>Of course, watch someone else pull a quote from MitS and open a can a
>whoop-ass on my case...Come on, where is it?

>-Jared Leisner

Nah, I don't need quotes from books to use my can of whoop-ass on people. I just do it
for fun. ;)

Justin


--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Message no. 21
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: Mana
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 06:47:25 -0700
On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 01:30:00 leisnj48 wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, GreyWolf wrote:

I'm going to respond to both of your posts at once.

>> Buzzz.. wrong. Auras can be "Seen" from the astral only. Think of them
being a
>> stencil of the person on the boundry between the astral and the physical. When a
>> creature or mage goes astrally active, think of it as though they are stepping
>> half in and half out of the astral plane. The astral and physical planes both
>> coexist... but think of them as parralel pieces of paper... that could help.

This is as valid an interpretation and explaination as any. However, it's just that - an
interpretation. What's important is that you use whatever works for you. In 2nd Ed,
auras existed on the astral plane. That may have changed in 3rd edition, but I haven't
seen anyone quote text which justifies this view.

>Ok, I understand the theory of the astral plane. But I was just repeated
>what Kenson(?) said to me. Why didn't you 'buzz' him?

Yeah, next time you want to slam someone's post, at least slam the original poster. :P I
can take it. ;)

>And if you're right, then that makes the problem even bigger! That means
>mundanes can't be touched (or touch) the astral plane...which means none
>of them should have goblinized.

>*sigh* I'm so confused now. I thought I knew what I was saying when I
>started.

Now now. Don't feel bad. We all go through this with RPGs from time to time. Just pick
something that works for you and go with it.

>-Jared Leisner

Justin


--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Message no. 22
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Mana
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 00:11:30 EDT
In a message dated 8/24/1999 2:01:37 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
leisnj48@****.cis.uwosh.edu writes:

> > > *Greywolf begins work at MIT&T as a thaumaturgical expert*
> > >
> > *Only to have his charter immediately revoked because of severely
> > inconsistent attitudes which are non-generative to a paying student
body.*
> > ;-P
>
> Which means...what, exactly? He runs naked through the quad, or something?

Intreresting meaning, given the concept of the "Nude Olympics" here in the
general area (Cary Quad:Purdue University)

-K

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Mana, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!