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Message no. 1
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 21:46:43 -0700
More answers from the answer man:

You cannot ground through a manifesting watcher. To qoute the Grimoire:

"Watchers can see and hear the physical plane, and can even manifest and speak
visibly and speak to physical beings. Like apparitions, however, they cannot
touch material things or affect the physical plane directly."

Astrally projecting magicians can make themselves visible on the physical
plane. Once again from the Grimoire:

"Also, an astrally projecting character can become visible on the physical
plane if he wishes. Once visible, he can speak to people on the physical
plane. However, he cannot touch physical things, cast spells at them, or in
any other way directly influence the physical world. He can still only
affect other astrally active beings.

*******************************************************************************
* See Ya in Shadows * * "Keep your friends close, but keep *
* Jason J Carter * Carter@***.EDU * your enemies closer." *
* The Nightstalker * * Deep Throat -- The X-Files *
*******************************************************************************
Message no. 2
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 15:07:17 +0100
> "Watchers can see and hear the physical plane, and can even manifest and speak
> visibly and speak to physical beings. Like apparitions, however, they cannot
> touch material things or affect the physical plane directly."
>
> Astrally projecting magicians can make themselves visible on the physical
> plane. Once again from the Grimoire:
>
> "Also, an astrally projecting character can become visible on the physical
> plane if he wishes. Once visible, he can speak to people on the physical
> plane. However, he cannot touch physical things, cast spells at them, or in
> any other way directly influence the physical world. He can still only
> affect other astrally active beings.

But the point here is not whether a manifested watcher/mage can affect
the physical world or not, but whether an area spell that hits the
afforementioned watcher/mage also happens to hit other "innocent
bystanders"

--

Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS -d+@ -p+(---) c+++ l+ u+++ e+ m++(-) s+/ !n(---) h*(+) f+ !g w+ t+ r++ y?
Message no. 3
From: "Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 09:22:38 -0500
Ok, so now we know we can't use watcher spirits as nuke carriers. How
about a force 1 elemental?? (I'm not addressing nature spirits, as that
would tend to go contrary to a shaman's perspective... and I'm only
addressing mages. A mage wouldn't have any problem using an elemental as
a nuke carrier. I see that attitude as only being a natural extension of
being able to use up their force for successes, or for dice, or
sustaining a spell. Hey, if I want that spell sustained for 1 day it'll
still knock the elemental back to its home plane and waste any more
services... why not just use it to drop a nasty spell onto a
non-magically active person?

Is that acceptable? If not, then why not?

I expect it is acceptable, although I find it not. That's why I'd like it
explained to me why it should be allowed.

------------------------------------------
Brian (bwa550s@***.smsu.edu)
Michael Crawford = sing.god
(GEEK CODE) GCS d@ -p+ c++++!!!!! l u+(++) e+(++) m@(+/++/---) s@/@
!n--- h*(+) f+(?) !g(20/12) w+ t+ r+(++) y?
Message no. 4
From: Loki <jek5313@******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 09:36:35 -0500
Darthie Vadre:
--> But the point here is not whether a manifested watcher/mage can affect
--> the physical world or not, but whether an area spell that hits the
--> afforementioned watcher/mage also happens to hit other "innocent
--> bystanders"

In order to do that, by pages 146-148 of the SRII manual, the grounding
spell would first have to be physical, and secondly, the watcher would
have to be physical, yet they are described as manifesting as a ghostlike
presence.



--

Dark Thought Publications & Doom Technologies, Inc.
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
Message no. 5
From: "I.M. Legion" <legion@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 09:21:41 -0600
> But the point here is not whether a manifested watcher/mage can affect
> the physical world or not, but whether an area spell that hits the
> afforementioned watcher/mage also happens to hit other "innocent
> bystanders"

I don't believe that any kind of spell cast at a manifested astral, or even
dual-, being from the astral could affect the mundane world. The watcher/
spirit/dual being is a being (with essence, in my opinion) and would take the
spell just as if they were purely in the astral plane. Some of the effects
could be visible on the mundane, such as being on fire from a hellblast
or the like, but the creature is an astral creature and the spell effects
would be restricted to the astral.

With the discussion about the apparent high-power of mages in general, using
this interpretation would balance it out a little more.

I spent the last combat of our most recent session purely in the astral as
an uninitiated combat mage trying to figure out who the initiate was that
we were fighting. Two fire elementals later, I at least discovered which
combatant he was so I could try to affect him from the astral. No luck.
Where I did get lucky was the last elemental I had available (a force 6 earth
elemental) got real lucky in a power contest with the bastard. The earth
elemental took him out in 3 rolls with no loss of force and continued to
trounce a couple of UCAS pinheads before the combat was over. But purely as
a mage, with nothing to ground a spell through on the initiate, I was almost
ineffective in the combat as a whole. This is a little more balanced than
what some people seem to be looking to accomplish (IMHO).

--
Legion
Students for War & Oppression
@@@@ @ @ @@@@ Counter productive, highly destructive!
@ @ @@ @ @ @ ---
@@@@ @ @@ @ @ @ Celebrating the occurrences of War &
@ @ @@ @ @ @ Oppression since the dawn of time
@@@@ @@@@ @@@@ -- Even the planets were born in turmoil... --
Message no. 6
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 12:03:46 -0400
On Wed, 13 Apr 1994, Brian W. Allison wrote:
> I expect it is acceptable, although I find it not. That's why I'd like it
> explained to me why it should be allowed.

You are a PitBull shaman aren't you...
Yes a force 1 elemental may be grounded through..BUT..Only when it is
manifest on the physical plane..The mainfestation causes a direct bridge
or circuit to be formed that will carry magical energies from astral
space to the earthly plane..This also results in the destruction of the
elemental...
--------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 7
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 21:04:52 +0100
> In order to do that, by pages 146-148 of the SRII manual, the grounding
> spell would first have to be physical, and secondly, the watcher would
> have to be physical, yet they are described as manifesting as a ghostlike
> presence.

-ouch...I had a look at a copy of Ka-Ge and a question that was asked was:
'Can a physical spell ground out through a manifesting spirit'
Unfortunately (cos' I don't personally like the consequences) the 'official'
answer from FASA was a resounding yes.

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|| ||
|| Micah Levy //Yeah! I'm on the web at last! ||
|| Department of Computer Science ||
|| University College London ||
|| ||
|| http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/people/malevy.html ||
|| ||
|| GCS d--@ -p+ c++ l(!) u++ e+ m- s n+ h* f g+(-) w t+ r++ y? ||
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Message no. 8
From: "Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 17:31:04 -0500
On Wed, 13 Apr 1994, C. Paul Douglas wrote:

> You are a PitBull shaman aren't you...

Gads... I've been found out!!!

Actually, I disagree with some parts of an argument, and in order to
agree with the argument I require someone to explain it to me on my
terms. If you drop to another language, or use a set of rules I think are
inherently flawed then you aren't communicating 'to' me, but 'at' me. So
when I hear <Y> as an argument, and disagree with <Y> then perhaps it
would be better to give me your reasons as to why you think it is true.
Of course, as always I reserve the right to gleefully disregard your
logic if I think it's flawed.

> Yes a force 1 elemental may be grounded through..BUT..Only when it is
> manifest on the physical plane..The mainfestation causes a direct bridge

And here's my problem with talk of a 'bridge' - as I've said before, none
of the rulebooks suggest that grounding can occur through anything but
foci or spell locks. Dual beings are vulnerable to astral attack (guess
that could include spells) but if it ain't a focus or lock then it
doesn't provide the right kind of link to ground through. Dowd said you
could ground through everything... I disagree with that. In fact I
wholeheartedly agree with the suggestion that he was punting. It is
illogical to painstakingly construct a set of rules and then render them
all chaotic in one stroke.

If you cannot explain the magical rules any better than claiming that any
magical use causes the 'bridge' to be, then I guess we'll just have to
disagree. Particularly in the light that SRII says distinctly that
Spellcasting doesn't provide the link for grounding. Again, Dowd might
have said yes, but it doesn't mean it was a thought out answer. What was
his reasoning, and did he mean for force 1 elementals to become possible
nuke carriers?

If you don't at least see what my objection is, better yet we'll kill the
thread, I've spent too much time just trying to explain my view and
having it misinterpreted or disregarded. I at least understand what
you're trying to say, I just think it's unbalanced (as H***).

flames can be sent to /dev/null.

------------------------------------------
Brian (bwa550s@***.smsu.edu)
Michael Crawford = sing.god
(GEEK CODE) GCS d@ -p+ c++++!!!!! l u+(++) e+(++) m@(+/++/---) s@/@
!n--- h*(+) f+(?) !g(20/12) w+ t+ r+(++) y?
Message no. 9
From: "Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 17:32:23 -0500
On Wed, 13 Apr 1994, C. Paul Douglas wrote:
> space to the earthly plane..This also results in the destruction of the
> elemental...
> --------------------------GRANITE

Oh no!!! It could cost 50k to get someone sniped, but 1,000 -Y- to show
up at his hideout and drop an Earth(1) elemental into his lap as a nuke
carrier......

Hm.... think I'll have to start doing that.....

------------------------------------------
Brian (bwa550s@***.smsu.edu)
Michael Crawford = sing.god
(GEEK CODE) GCS d@ -p+ c++++!!!!! l u+(++) e+(++) m@(+/++/---) s@/@
!n--- h*(+) f+(?) !g(20/12) w+ t+ r+(++) y?
Message no. 10
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 02:31:53 -0400
On Wed, 13 Apr 1994, Brian W. Allison wrote:
> > You are a PitBull shaman aren't you...
> Gads... I've been found out!!!
>
It is kind of obvious...

> And here's my problem with talk of a 'bridge' - as I've said before, none
> of the rulebooks suggest that grounding can occur through anything but
> foci or spell locks.

Look on page 146, first column, third paragraph, second to last sentance..

as to where I get the bridge argument..now look on pg 149, 2nd col., 3rd
para, go ahead and read the whole para....this spaeks of normal
casting..now jump down to the last para...Don't forget to turn the page
and finish the para..

This should clear up alot of your argument..I really do not like to thump
to core rules like they are some sort of bible..

> If you cannot explain the magical rules any better than claiming that any
> magical use causes the 'bridge' to be, then I guess we'll just have to
> disagree.

Read the stuff above and then if you still dissagree let me know..I will
grant you this..You don't have to like the rules..And if you don't like
`em change `em...

Particularly in the light that SRII says distinctly that
> Spellcasting doesn't provide the link for grounding.

It is not the act of casting it is the instant of astral preception that
goes with it..

> his reasoning, and did he mean for force 1 elementals to become possible
> nuke carriers?

The cost to the characte in karma and money should be a pretty good
preventative..It has kept me from doing it...
>
> If you don't at least see what my objection is, better yet we'll kill the
> thread,

I see what your point is but I think your so much on the defense you
don't really want to see the answers...But that is another matter...
---------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 11
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 15:43:19 +0100
But the point here is not whether a manifested watcher/mage can affect
> --> the physical world or not, but whether an area spell that hits the
> --> afforementioned watcher/mage also happens to hit other "innocent
> --> bystanders"
>
> In order to do that, by pages 146-148 of the SRII manual, the grounding
> spell would first have to be physical, and secondly, the watcher would
> have to be physical, yet they are described as manifesting as a ghostlike
> presence.

I agree :) but u dont have to go to all that trouble to prove it.
A manifesting watcher is exactly the same thing as a manifesting mage.
Can a spell be groundet through a manifesting mage ? NO cause in
order to attack the mage you would have to be in the astral plane
and spells in the astral work differently than in the physical world.

--

Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS -d+@ -p+(---) c+++ l+ u+++ e+ m++(-) s+/ !n(---) h*(+) f+ !g w+ t+ r++ y?
Message no. 12
From: Loki <jek5313@******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 13:40:31 -0500
Legion:
--> I don't believe that any kind of spell cast at a manifested astral, or even
--> dual-, being from the astral could affect the mundane world. The watcher/
--> spirit/dual being is a being (with essence, in my opinion) and would take the
--> spell just as if they were purely in the astral plane. Some of the effects
--> could be visible on the mundane, such as being on fire from a hellblast
--> or the like, but the creature is an astral creature and the spell effects
--> would be restricted to the astral.


Here's the "rationale" for grounding through folks, dual and otherwise:

SRII manual, pg 146.

The act of astrally percieving opens the magician's own aura to astral
space, making it vulnerable to attack. As stated previously, astrally
percieving characters are vulnerable to astral combat. They can also be
directly affected by mana spells, and physical spells can be cast to
ground-out through them.

SRII manual, pg 148.

Dual beings exist on both planes all the time. They have the same
Attribute and Ability ratings on both planes. Astral beings live in
astral space, and most have the ability, but not the inclination, to
manifest themselves in the physical world.

Dual beings must move on both planes simultaneously, as must astral
beings when they manifest in the physical world. They cannot be in one
place in the physical and another in astral space. Thus, they are
limited to their physical-plane rate of speed and initiative.


SRII manual, pg. 149.

Foci and astral perception both create bridges between the physical world
and the astral plane that can be exploited by spellcasters in astral
space. A mana spell thrown at a target with such a dual profile,
physical and astral, will only affect that target, even if it is an
area-effect spell. The spiritual component is contained within the
physical component, so the area-effect is dampened...A physical spell
thworn by an astral caster at a dual-natured target will ground out
through the target's physical component.


SRII manual, pg. 148

A magician in astral space cannot cast a spell at another spell, but he
can cast one at any other astral being. Such a spell cannot be
intercepted, and only spells that would affect the thing or being
physically would work. A sleep spell cannot be used to damage a magical
item, but it would work against a magician in astral space. Mana spells
only affect the astral target. Physical spells ground out and may affect
others.



Still working on some other stuff in here, but duty calls. . .





--

Dark Thought Publications & Doom Technologies, Inc.
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
Message no. 13
From: "Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 15:28:15 -0500
On Thu, 14 Apr 1994, C. Paul Douglas wrote:

I'll respond to your rules quotes when I get a rulebook in here... Or is
that, "I'll read your quotes..."

> The cost to the characte in karma and money should be a pretty good
> preventative..It has kept me from doing it...

I don't see my mage suffering from karma loss for misusing elementals
this way... since mages see elementals as things to be used anyway. Hey,
if I can burn off its force points permanently by tying it to a spell for
(force)days, then should that bring a karma loss?

> I see what your point is but I think your so much on the defense you
> don't really want to see the answers...But that is another matter...

Well if you re-read your posts, you might find that I've tried to remain
well-mannered while under attack from people who don't know the notion.
I'v been insulted, send pathetic private e-mail, and harassed. I wonder
that I'm not defensive, but I don't see that I am. I'm just tired of
trying to talk like adults when so many have to act like children because
their beliefs are challenged. (Hey, I may live close to the world
headquarters of one of the most religiously conservative churches in the
world, but even I have limits to patience with other people's
xenophobia.) But if I come across as defensive then shovel your
perceptions elsewhere. (Now do I come across as offensive? *grin*)

Seriously, it's been like talking to a brick wall for me, and when I ask
another question I've consistently been slammed for the question. Hm...
intolerance. It gets old. Perhaps thats why there are a small number of
posters here compared to the number of readers?

------------------------------------------
Brian (bwa550s@***.smsu.edu)
Michael Crawford = sing.god
(GEEK CODE) GCS d@ -p+ c++++!!!!! l u+(++) e+(++) m@(+/++/---) s@/@
!n--- h*(+) f+(?) !g(20/12) w+ t+ r+(++) y?
Message no. 14
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 17:47:52 -0400
On Thu, 14 Apr 1994, Brian W. Allison wrote:

> > The cost to the characte in karma and money should be a pretty good
> > preventative..It has kept me from doing it...
>
> I don't see my mage suffering from karma loss for misusing elementals
> this way... since mages see elementals as things to be used anyway. Hey,
> if I can burn off its force points permanently by tying it to a spell for
> (force)days, then should that bring a karma loss?
>
That..naturally is the responsibility of the GM..When somebody does
something..Like hosing down a bunch of inocent by-standers this costs
that person karma [if the GM is doing his/her job], so should misusing an
Elemental or Spirit that a mage/shaman conjures...
-------------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 15
From: "Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 21:34:01 -0500
On Thu, 14 Apr 1994, C. Paul Douglas wrote:
> That..naturally is the responsibility of the GM..When somebody does
> something..Like hosing down a bunch of inocent by-standers this costs
> that person karma [if the GM is doing his/her job], so should misusing an
> Elemental or Spirit that a mage/shaman conjures...


Answer this question, granite (and WHY do you call yourself that? sheesh,
noone ever answers the good questions) : Do you punish a mage for using
an elemental to hold a spell for (force)days? It depletes the elemental's
force permanently, you know. Since 'killing' a spirit only sends it back
to the plane from which it came (for 28 days), a mage has no impetus not
to use it in any manner which is chosen. But I digress... So, yes or no
to my question, please... Would you punish the mage?

And, I remind you once only - I previously said I wasn't talking about
shamans. Only mages. Reason : a shaman makes a deal with the natural
forces, and IMO it would be against his own world view to ground through
a spirit. Of couse, someone else might have a different view. (No sh**.)

------------------------------------------
Brian (bwa550s@***.smsu.edu)
Michael Crawford = sing.god
(GEEK CODE) GCS d@ -p+ c++++!!!!! l u+(++) e+(++) m@(+/++/---) s@/@
!n--- h*(+) f+(?) !g(20/12) w+ t+ r+(++) y?
Message no. 16
From: "Brian W. Allison" <bwa550s@***.SMSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Manifesting Watchers and Magicians
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 12:30:36 -0500
On Thu, 14 Apr 1994, C. Paul Douglas wrote:
>> Particularly in the light that SRII says distinctly that
>> Spellcasting doesn't provide the link for grounding.
>
> It is not the act of casting it is the instant of astral preception that
> goes with it..


Congratulations. I now agree with you on the grounding through dual
creatures. You may now party, or whatever.

Of course... this doesn't include elementals or spells. The 'instant of
astral perception' .... well the link there is partial, as the
explanation on 149 explains. Also, the statement is that Spellcasting
doesn't provide the necessary link. Guess a full astral perception is
needed, or a duality. So if the total act of Spellcasting doesn't provide
the link, then one step in the act cannot do it. The act of sustaining,
as well, only establishes a partial link to astral space. A full link is
necessary, where the mage is fully percieving.

As for elementals, there are two types of living creatures on the astral.
Dual and astral creatures. Spirits have two types of forms, astral and
manifest. Where is it said that they're dual when manifested, or is that a
house rule?


------------------------------------------ Brian (bwa550s@***.smsu.edu)
<<Lone Star, when it absolutely, positively, has to be screwed up.>>
(GEEK CODE) GCS d@ -p+ c++++!!!!! l u+(++) e+(++) m@(+/++/---) s@/@
!n--- h*(+) f+(?) !g(20/12) w+ t+ r+(++) y?

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