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Message no. 1
From: Michael R Papas <michaelp@****.COM>
Subject: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 18:03:34 -0800
Greetings,
I was wondering if I can get any feedback and/or
suggestions on how to build a shaman of Mantis
without being able to summon insect spirits.
(Nasty things though they are ;>)
I am wondering because I have a player (who, in
Real Life (TM), is a practicing shaman (If it
matters, he knows more about this than I.)) who
wishes to be a follower of Mantis, without having
to be insane about it. I have summarized his
arguments in the following points:
- The character will be a shaman (either full
or adept)
- The character will be unable to summon Mantid
spirits (except maybe using the same rules as the
summoning of an ally spirit)
- The character will be limited in the
summoning of Nature spirits (i.e.: Suffers either
a higher TN or loses dice)
- Will have to role-play the difference
between Mantis and Mantid shamans (they will
probably hate each other, viewing the other as an
abomination)
I seem to be having trouble deciding wether or
not to allow this character. If I do allow this
character, I am unsure what the mechanics of the
totem would be. The personality I think I have
down pat. Maybe. ;)
I would much appreciate any input on this
subject.

Much Thanks in Advance,
Ithanyel E. Ashkevaron
- -
"Artic storm of Blizzards night, Twilight's flame
of Darkling light..."
Message no. 2
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 04:14:56 +0000
Michael Papas wrote:

> I was wondering if I can get any feedback and/or
> suggestions on how to build a shaman of Mantis
> without being able to summon insect spirits.
> (Nasty things though they are ;>)

There's three ways I'd consider handling this request from a
player. One way would be to say that 'insect shamans' are
not normal shamans, but rather has a connection or alliance to ..
something else and is called shamans just for convenience or lack of
knowledge. If that was so, then there could exist normal insect
totems side by side with the 'other' insect totems which would be
normal totems (exactly like any other animal totem, w. nature
spirits etc.). And if he wanted to play such a totem, no problem,
just make it. This coincides with another idea - many totems should
have more than one aspect. Snake, for instance, is viewed some places
as a healer, other places as a symbol of evil, so a snake shaman
could follow one or the other aspect. (There's some basis for this is
the description of insect spirits, but it's a house rule.).

The second way would be to let him play a normal insect shaman who
tries to refuse his/her queen's commands to summon spirits. Insect
shamans aren't necessarily mad (but it helps). Going by the 'spirit'
of the insect spirit setting portrayed in Bug City, he'd loose
eventually, though, so it wouldn't hurt giving him a few freebies
while he's at it. (Insect shamans has to be initiates, so the freebie
could be initiate grade 0, but with little or no centering skill it
shouldn't be very unbalancing.). This option is not very team -
friendly, and also makes motivations for shadowrunning hard to figure
out.



> I seem to be having trouble deciding wether or
> not to allow this character.

I understand the trouble.

This brings us to the third method I'd consider handling this request
by. Just say 'no'. ;)

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 3
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 19:18:59 -0800
> Greetings,
> I was wondering if I can get any feedback and/or
> suggestions on how to build a shaman of Mantis
> without being able to summon insect spirits.
> (Nasty things though they are ;>)
> I am wondering because I have a player (who, in
> Real Life (TM), is a practicing shaman (If it
> matters, he knows more about this than I.)) who
> wishes to be a follower of Mantis, without having
> to be insane about it. I have summarized his
> arguments in the following points:
> - The character will be a shaman (either full
> or adept)
> - The character will be unable to summon Mantid
> spirits (except maybe using the same rules as the
> summoning of an ally spirit)
> - The character will be limited in the
> summoning of Nature spirits (i.e.: Suffers either
> a higher TN or loses dice)
> - Will have to role-play the difference
> between Mantis and Mantid shamans (they will
> probably hate each other, viewing the other as an
> abomination)
> I seem to be having trouble deciding wether or
> not to allow this character. If I do allow this
> character, I am unsure what the mechanics of the
> totem would be. The personality I think I have
> down pat. Maybe. ;)
> I would much appreciate any input on this
> subject.
>
> Much Thanks in Advance,
> Ithanyel E. Ashkevaron

I was under the impression that having an insect totem would warp the mind
of the shaman to such an extreme that they no longer had total control over
their minds.
Quoting from Awakenings, page 85-86, Insect Spirits and Shamans:
starting at second paragraph;
Ants, flies, termites, wasps, roaches, mantids--these are the insect
totems <quick aside of mine: Is that all? There's more insects than that.>.
No one really knows where they come from, no one can really explain their
existance and their goals <And they can for other totems, right?>. But
nearly everyone (except for the shamans of these totems) agrees that they
are very, very dangerous. Of all the generally harmful totems, the insect
totems target their activities most obviously and relentlessly against
(meta)humanity. <If insect shamans are working against humanity, isn't it
bad for a PC to be one?>
Generally, insect shamans believe they can use an insect totem for their
own gain when they first accept the totem's guidance. When you consider the
vast power these totems wield, the temptation is easily understood. In all
cases, however, the alien nature of the totem eventually emerges and
becomes ascendent <the totem controls your mind, in case that one went over
your head.> and the totem ends up using the shaman for _its_ own ends.

So, if you do eventually let the player create one, he'll eventually be
possesed by the totem, but he'll probably have some powerful advantages
(and some major disadvantages). Dunno, I'd feel better about having voudon
in my game than a insect shaman as a PC.
Message no. 4
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 23:38:12 EST
In a message dated 10/31/98 6:08:19 PM Pacific Standard Time,
michaelp@****.COM writes:

> I was wondering if I can get any feedback and/or
> suggestions on how to build a shaman of Mantis
> without being able to summon insect spirits.
> (Nasty things though they are ;>)
Actually I mentioned this on the site I just put up
(http://members.aol.com/trxtyr) as a different form of shaman. (I added
"construct" shamans that actually view their totem as a mental construct, that
is where I mention mantis. I also added Individualist shamans, which are
basically the "many faces of snake" idea that someone else mentioned <you
know
who you are, sorry I am lazy>)
Basically the character that was under discussion in my campaign was a
physically aspected shaman that followed the totem "Mantis the Hunter" and
used a sort of Mantis Kung Fu. Never got past discussion really, so I did not
get stats for him, sorry. :-)
Message no. 5
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 23:26:54 -0600
> I am wondering because I have a player (who, in
> Real Life (TM), is a practicing shaman (If it
> matters, he knows more about this than I.)) who
> wishes to be a follower of Mantis, without having
> to be insane about it.

Basically, I'd think the player would be better off finding an insect that
has sparked the human imagination in some significant way. (Either now, or
through history). The only example that comes to mind at the moment, would
be the scarab of the Egyptians. Maybe a ladybug? The only reasoning I have
for that one, is looking at the way children view ladybugs. Perhaps in an
Asian culture, the dragonfly? Of course, the way I'm thinking of them, you'd
really need to model them off of the 'traditional' animal totems, rather
than the mechanics of the current insect totems.

I think the key, is to find some way that humans associate closely with the
creature in question. (This is also the logic that I would apply to some of
the totems that are based on fantasy creatures).

The Spider totem appears to be an example of something like this.



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 6
From: Michael R Papas <michaelp@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:37:57 -0800
And it came to pass that Hatchetman stated:
| Quoting from Awakenings, page 85-86, Insect Spirits and Shamans:
| starting at second paragraph;
| Ants, flies, termites, wasps, roaches, mantids--these are the
insect
| totems <quick aside of mine: Is that all? There's more insects than
that.>.
| No one really knows where they come from, no one can really explain their
| existance and their goals <And they can for other totems, right?>. But
| nearly everyone (except for the shamans of these totems) agrees that they
| are very, very dangerous. Of all the generally harmful totems, the insect
| totems target their activities most obviously and relentlessly against
| (meta)humanity. <If insect shamans are working against humanity, isn't it
| bad for a PC to be one?>
| Generally, insect shamans believe they can use an insect totem
for their
| own gain when they first accept the totem's guidance. When you consider
the
| vast power these totems wield, the temptation is easily understood. In
all
| cases, however, the alien nature of the totem eventually emerges and
| becomes ascendent <the totem controls your mind, in case that one went
over
| your head.> and the totem ends up using the shaman for _its_ own ends.

I have always had a problem with this. If this is true of insect totems,
then why would it not be true with the animal/reptile totems? This is
something I have never understood. I would be pleasantly surprised if you
could explain to me why one totem is any more dangerous to ones mind than
an other totem, regardless of the kind. By the way, the above is not meant
to be insulting or sarcastic, I would like to know what the "in-game
theory" and "game-mechanics" on this are.

| So, if you do eventually let the player create one, he'll eventually be
| possesed by the totem, but he'll probably have some powerful advantages
| (and some major disadvantages). Dunno, I'd feel better about having
voudon
| in my game than a insect shaman as a PC.

As of yet, I have not had anyone who wanted to play a character who gets
possessed on a regular basis. They never know what I am going to do to
them. <Evil GM Grin>

Much Thanks,
Ithanyel E. Ashkevaron
- -
"Artic storm of Blizzards night, Twilight's flame of Darkling light . . ."
Message no. 7
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:55:00 -0800
> I have always had a problem with this. If this is true of insect
totems,
> then why would it not be true with the animal/reptile totems? This is
> something I have never understood. I would be pleasantly surprised if you
> could explain to me why one totem is any more dangerous to ones mind than
> an other totem, regardless of the kind. By the way, the above is not
meant
> to be insulting or sarcastic, I would like to know what the "in-game
> theory" and "game-mechanics" on this are.

In one of the books, I think one of the published adventures, it says
insect totems are posessed of a bizarre and alien intelligence. I think it
might be Euphoria. But has anyone actually met an insect shaman that was
working towards good? The only one I can remember as being truly evil is
Spider. From one of the older novels, Dog (and I think Wolf too) was
supposed to be fighting Spider because she was evil. Cursed bad memory.
Message no. 8
From: Jonathan P Martin <devotelyapathetic@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 02:07:36 -0500
On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:37:57 -0800 Michael R Papas <michaelp@****.COM>
writes:
> I have always had a problem with this. If this is true of
>insect totems,
>then why would it not be true with the animal/reptile totems? This is
>something I have never understood. I would be pleasantly surprised if
>you
>could explain to me why one totem is any more dangerous to ones mind
>than
>an other totem, regardless of the kind. By the way, the above is not
>meant
>to be insulting or sarcastic, I would like to know what the "in-game
>theory" and "game-mechanics" on this are.

I believe it has something to do with the whole "Insects taking over the
world" idea.
If the insects were left unchecked they'd take over the world with total
disregard for
humanity. Not that any other animal wouldn't, just insects have the best
chance
of actually doing something of this sort a la the whole invasion of ants
in the Rain
forests and such.

Add in the fact that while most people could see and understand animals
(They're
like us but a little different) but insects LOOK weird, there
social/reproductive
structure is complelely different (One reproductive female, others serve
her). If humans
had such a structure it'd be very unlikely we'd respect "individuals" or
anybody who wasn't
of the same "Mother". Not that a whole lot wouldn't also change...

'Sides it makes for a really spooky magical bad-guy that nobody will feel
too
bad about turning to paste.

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 9
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 01:15:57 -0600
On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 18:03:34 -0800 Michael R Papas <michaelp@****.COM>
writes:
> Greetings,
> I was wondering if I can get any feedback and/or
> suggestions on how to build a shaman of Mantis
> without being able to summon insect spirits.
> (Nasty things though they are ;>)
> I am wondering because I have a player (who, in
> Real Life (TM), is a practicing shaman (If it
> matters, he knows more about this than I.)) who
> wishes to be a follower of Mantis, without having
> to be insane about it. I have summarized his
> arguments in the following points:
> - The character will be a shaman (either full
> or adept)
> - The character will be unable to summon Mantid
> spirits (except maybe using the same rules as the
> summoning of an ally spirit)
> - The character will be limited in the
> summoning of Nature spirits (i.e.: Suffers either
> a higher TN or loses dice)
> - Will have to role-play the difference
> between Mantis and Mantid shamans (they will
> probably hate each other, viewing the other as an
> abomination)
> I seem to be having trouble deciding wether or
> not to allow this character. If I do allow this
> character, I am unsure what the mechanics of the
> totem would be. The personality I think I have
> down pat. Maybe. ;)
> I would much appreciate any input on this
> subject.

Okay, the simple version is to make the char a normal Shaman summoning
normal Nature Spirits.

Let's see, since Mantis is a Hunter, a bonus to Combat spells would be a
good start. Probably +2. A bonus to detection or illusion spells would
also be appropriate. Maybe +1 or 2. I can't really think of any spirit
that would be appropriate for them to get a bonus for (maybe Forest?).

Penalties. All I can think of is health. so -1. And for good measure,
Gator's willpower test to break off direct action.

To sum up:
Mantis
<Insert ideal here>
Environment: Anywhere (?)
Advantages: +2 dice for Combat Spells, and +1 dice for Illusion and
Detection Spells. +2 dice for conjuring Forest Spirits.
Disadvantages: -1 dice for Health Spells. It takes a Willpower (6)
Test for a Mantis shaman to break off a fight, chase or other direct
action.

(Note: if this seems overly powerful [It did to me at first], it is
*under*powered [slightly] compared to Gator.)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 10
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 01:33:10 -0600
On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:37:57 -0800 Michael R Papas <michaelp@****.COM>
writes:
<SNIP>
> I have always had a problem with this. If this is true of insect
totems,
>then why would it not be true with the animal/reptile totems? This is
>something I have never understood. I would be pleasantly surprised if
you
>could explain to me why one totem is any more dangerous to ones mind
than
>an other totem, regardless of the kind. By the way, the above is not
meant
>to be insulting or sarcastic, I would like to know what the "in-game
>theory" and "game-mechanics" on this are.
<SNIP>

I think it's primarily the hive mind buggers that throw your brain for
loop. The others however are still pretty alien to human nature
though... How many mantises (manti? :) would spend 20% of its life
expectancy raising its young to maturity? A wolf or bear or (I think)
any of the animal represented by the standard totems do, in fact, some
portion of their lives raising their young (I'm not sure about Shark or
Gator, though.)

I personally prefer to use cannon "Insect Shamans" as a different TYPE of
Magicians rather than a different set of totems. (Therefore normal
shamans can follow insect totems and summon normal spirits. You could
have a Mantis "Shaman" and Mantis Shaman but it'd get confusing ...
That's why a while back I proposed renaming the "Insect Shamans" and the
spirits they summon Avatars [Thus, you have a Mantis Avatar Shaman
summoning Mantis Avatars and you could possibly have the same thing for
the "normal" totems.].)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
Would a Goldfish Shaman want to be flushed down a toilet instead of being
buried?

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 11
From: Matt T Ork <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 10:01:52 -0500
On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:55:00 -0800 Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
writes:

>In one of the books, I think one of the published adventures, it says
>insect totems are posessed of a bizarre and alien intelligence. I think
it
>might be Euphoria. But has anyone actually met an insect shaman that was
>working towards good? The only one I can remember as being truly evil is
>Spider. From one of the older novels, Dog (and I think Wolf too) was
>supposed to be fighting Spider because she was evil. Cursed bad
>memory.

Technically, Spider's not an Insect. She's an arachnid. :)

And if I remember correctly from the Bug City totem description, she's
more of a normal totem than the bugs but I don't think she's totally
evil. The archtypical master manipulator, etc. Devious is probably a
better word.

As for an insect shaman (not counting Mantis) not working toward some
wierd, twisted goal to turn the whole of metahumanity into a buffet?
Nope. Since it's always been my understanding that an insect shaman
makes contact with a colony 'queen' to gain his/her power, and the queen
normally wants the aforementioned goal ... it doesn't seem all that
likely.

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
***********************************
"Of course, I don't know what's all that familar about arachnids compared
to insects..."

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 12
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 13:30:32 EST
In a message dated 11/1/98 7:07:18 AM Pacific Standard Time,
steelclaw@****.COM writes:

>
> As for an insect shaman (not counting Mantis) not working toward some
> wierd, twisted goal to turn the whole of metahumanity into a buffet?
> Nope. Since it's always been my understanding that an insect shaman
> makes contact with a colony 'queen' to gain his/her power, and the quee=
n
> normally wants the aforementioned goal ... it doesn't seem all that
> likely.
>
As I said on my site, the debate of whether totems themselves exist and
grant magic to a shaman, or whether the shaman is genetically predisposed =
to
magic and the totem is simply a mental construct to direct that magic. Bot=
h
may be true, but one of my theories is that a "shaman" could grow up,
believeing in natural magic and emulating a "totem" while still believeing
that the totem is not really a spirit granting thte magic. <it makes perfe=
ct
sense to me, but I have always followed my own logic :-) so there>
So a "construct" shaman could set himself as a mantis shaman while still
summoning nature spirits. He could also (by the same logic) follow another
insect totem, but the call of the insect avatars (©Dghost enterprise.) m=
ay
attract him along a different path. The Avatars seem to be more along the
lines of the Horrors/Enemy in that they are spirits from Somewhere as oppo=
sed
to impressions on nature. It may be a battle of his personality and
"construct" totem vs. the Avatars for the length of the character, as soon=
as
he summons an insect avatar though, he is a goner for the darker path.
Message no. 13
From: Rook <rook@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:23:05 -0800
> > I was wondering if I can get any feedback and/or
> > suggestions on how to build a shaman of Mantis
> > I am wondering because I have a player (who, in
> > Real Life (TM), is a practicing shaman (If it
> > matters, he knows more about this than I.)) who
> > wishes to be a follower of Mantis, without having
> > to be insane about it.
> > - The character will be limited in the
> > summoning of Nature spirits
> > - Will have to role-play the difference
> > between Mantis and Mantid shamans
> > I seem to be having trouble deciding wether or
> > not to allow this character.

> I was under the impression that having an insect totem would warp the mind
> of the shaman to such an extreme that they no longer had total control over
> their minds.

Well... In real life Shamanic religions insect are ussually holy and
good totems. Whereas many of the animals, such as owl, are downright
evil.
This player being a real life shaman probably had the same reaction I
and my fellow native americans (I know I've sounded like I was asian
before, and the last name follows... I'm 1/4 Chinese, 1/4 caucasian, 1/4
N. American Indian, 1/4 South American Indian (Inca)) had when we first
encountered Shadowrun.
It's totems are just sadly off. They resemble a Disney version of our
religions and mythologies rather than anything based on actual belief
systems more oft than not.

For instance, among many native american (north) groups Spider is a
very holy motherly protective figure. As a child I used to have visions
of her coming to me as a glowing silvery shiny entity that would save me
from the things a 5 year olds nightmares would be composed of.

> So, if you do eventually let the player create one, he'll eventually be
> possesed by the totem, but he'll probably have some powerful advantages
> (and some major disadvantages). Dunno, I'd feel better about having voudon
> in my game than a insect shaman as a PC.

What I would do is what the original poster hinted at. Make it a non
insane wacko totem. I don't know of any totem refferences to Mantis' in
the real world. That's not my area of expertise. Let the player who
wants it draft that up. If he's a real life practioner he likely knows
what belongs and is not likely to be abusive. Simply because the real
things are rarely abusive and he probably just wants to reflect his real
world belief's within the game.

Now; native american's in the game world who actually know their
cultural history will know the difference between this 'true insect
shaman' and the wacko western toxic ones. It won't take more than seeing
the guy from 50 paces off to spot it. People of western influence will
react poorly when he tells them what he is. But if they judge him on
appearances and charisma they will likely see him for what he truely is
and wonder why he calls himself an 'insect shaman' when from what they
believe he clearly isn't...

Brian

Who has a lot of fun with a Cherokee Owl shamaness who goes through
alot of trouble and angst having had a creature of death select her for
it's ways; when she herself is a mostly decent person.

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG TownHall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ Nothing vast enters the life of mortals without a curse.
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site
Message no. 14
From: Rook <rook@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:31:39 -0800
> In one of the books, I think one of the published adventures, it says
> insect totems are posessed of a bizarre and alien intelligence. I think it
> might be Euphoria. But has anyone actually met an insect shaman that was
> working towards good? The only one I can remember as being truly evil is
> Spider. From one of the older novels, Dog (and I think Wolf too) was
> supposed to be fighting Spider because she was evil. Cursed bad memory.

Funny that. Spider is generally among the North American Natives one of
the most revered and holy creatures in mythology. She's the mother
goddess figure; having spun the web of the world, in many cultures.
man I wish FASA had just asked a native or two first before writing up
the whole totems system... It's so hard to play sometimes when you get
something you know in your gut feels terribly wrong.

---Watch out for owls.

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG TownHall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ Nothing vast enters the life of mortals without a curse.
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site
Message no. 15
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 15:36:35 -0600
On Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:23:05 -0800 Rook <rook@*******.COM> writes:
<SNIP>
>> I was under the impression that having an insect totem would warp the
mind
>> of the shaman to such an extreme that they no longer had total control
over
>> their minds.

> Well... In real life Shamanic religions insect are ussually holy
and
>good totems. Whereas many of the animals, such as owl, are downright
evil.
> This player being a real life shaman probably had the same
reaction I
>and my fellow native americans (I know I've sounded like I was asian
>before, and the last name follows... I'm 1/4 Chinese, 1/4 caucasian, 1/4
>N. American Indian, 1/4 South American Indian (Inca)) had when we first
>encountered Shadowrun.
> It's totems are just sadly off. They resemble a Disney version
of our
>religions and mythologies rather than anything based on actual belief
>systems more oft than not.
<SNIP>

I think in Shadowrun, the ideal is more important than the animal
associated with it... You could follow the White Unicorn as a
represntation of evil and corruption (You are Christian and this Pagan
Icon is your link to <Church Lady> SATAN! </Church Lady> ...) Or you
could follow Raven/Crow/Vulture as a representation of Life/Death (you
view Raven/Crow/Vulture as the Gate keeper to the next realm and so get
bonuses to Health and Combat spells). I recall seeing a cartoon on PBS
about an African Legend where Spider was a Trickster.

If you want to follow motherly Spider, go for it. Make up your own stats
and go for it. If you want to throw the Sinister Owl Shaman against your
players, go for it. The only limitation is, if you ever create a Barney
Shaman, I'll have to hurt you ... repeatedly ... ;)

Seriously, there should be a potentially unlimited supply of Totems and
variations of the same Totem. I'm no expert on Shamanism by any means,
but I'm sure that even amongst people with the same motherly/protective
view of Spider that you have, your connection to Spider is unique.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 16
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:23:31 -0800
> Funny that. Spider is generally among the North American Natives
one of
> the most revered and holy creatures in mythology. She's the mother
> goddess figure; having spun the web of the world, in many cultures.
> man I wish FASA had just asked a native or two first before
writing up
> the whole totems system... It's so hard to play sometimes when you get
> something you know in your gut feels terribly wrong.
>
> ---Watch out for owls.

Noticed that too. I have a little Sioux blood in the family, so I know a
little history. A lot of the totems would be better if they checked with
the natives.
Message no. 17
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 20:17:51 -0600
> man I wish FASA had just asked a native or two first
> before writing up
> the whole totems system... It's so hard to play sometimes when you get
> something you know in your gut feels terribly wrong.

I've always been under the impression that FASA wanted to get it close, but
not *too* close. It was risky enough on their part to include them in the
game as they do. I'd think that it'd be easy to offend people if they got
TOO close to reality in their game, than if they just use something vaguely
close.

I've gotten the impression from some people with strong christian
backgrounds, that they feel SR (and other games) makes their beliefs out to
be 'wrong', and pagan beliefs 'right'. (Even the suggestion that pagan
beliefs might be an acceptible path for some people, might be construed as
being against the christian belief).



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 18
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 00:55:09 EST
In a message dated 98-11-01 16:52:31 EST, you write:

> If you want to follow motherly Spider, go for it. Make up your own stats
> and go for it. If you want to throw the Sinister Owl Shaman against your
> players, go for it. The only limitation is, if you ever create a Barney
> Shaman, I'll have to hurt you ... repeatedly ... ;)

And I would help.

Hmm... pluses on thought control spells and some sort of willpower roll to be
serious about anything....

*)%*$#)@$&*

>>No carrier<<
Message no. 19
From: HAUPT ULRICH FB08 <sandman@****.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:25:31 MEZ-1MESZ
Michael R Papas wrote:

> Greetings,
> I was wondering if I can get any feedback and/or
> suggestions on how to build a shaman of Mantis
> without being able to summon insect spirits.
> (Nasty things though they are ;>)

<snipsnip>

> I would much appreciate any input on this
> subject.
>
> Much Thanks in Advance,
> Ithanyel E. Ashkevaron

Using something strange you could use the voodoo/loa rules from
Awakenings. They give much more control to the game master!

Sandman
Message no. 20
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:15:45 -0500
Quoting XaOs [David Goth] (xaos@*****.NET):
> > man I wish FASA had just asked a native or two first
> > before writing up
> > the whole totems system... It's so hard to play sometimes when you get
> > something you know in your gut feels terribly wrong.

Like trolls in LA, functioning cyberware, and the date being 2060?
I'm not sure who the above was quoted from (it's not David), but...
suspension of disbelief. Know it, love it.

> I've always been under the impression that FASA wanted to get it close, but
> not *too* close. It was risky enough on their part to include them in the
> game as they do. I'd think that it'd be easy to offend people if they got
> TOO close to reality in their game, than if they just use something vaguely
> close.

Agreed, but not, perhaps, for the reasons you intended. See below :)

> I've gotten the impression from some people with strong christian
> backgrounds, that they feel SR (and other games) makes their beliefs out to
> be 'wrong', and pagan beliefs 'right'. (Even the suggestion that pagan
> beliefs might be an acceptible path for some people, might be construed as
> being against the christian belief).

I can see why people might feel that way ('Hey, how come the pagans
get to do magic, and the Christians don't?'), but it's really a matter of
presentation more than anything else (Hermeticism, for instance, at least
some forms of it, draw strongly on Christian and Jewish traditions, something
that's not mentioned). In fact, religion isn't REALLY mentioned in connection
with the shamans, either...it's just that more people know there are religous
practices associated with shamanism in the real world than know there are
similar connections for Hermeticism, so there's a perception that one is
religious and the other isn't.
{Side note: I don't think the books make mainstream religions 'wrong'
and pagan beliefs 'right'. I do, however, think that they make mainstream
religions and Hermeticism BORING, and pagan beliefs and shamanism COOL. I
mean, look at the relative amount of space used to describe them, and the sorts
of details they provide. They really need to provide some flavor for the
Hermetics - they're just too damn BLAND.}
Okay, back on topic. As you said, if FASA had tried to model actual
pagan or shamanistic beliefs in their game system, they'd have gotten in
trouble. But not, as I think you assume, with the Christians.
As my pagan SO points out, most Christians wouldn't know the
difference between 'real' pagan beliefs and fake ones. So it's not like they
could be more annoyed by one than the other.
However, the PAGANS would know. And it's been my experience that there
is a noticable lack of consensus on what constitute 'real pagan beliefs'
among the pagan community. So no matter WHAT FASA did, SOMEBODY was going
to say it was wrong. Better to deliberately make it fake than to favor
one group's views over another. It's also more respectful of those beliefs -
because even if they'd TRIED to get it exactly in line with some particular
groups' beliefs, they couldn't have gotten it just right, and it would have
been viewed as trivializing their religion. It's just all bad.
This is why, though some games may use the trappings of religion,
very few try to model anything that's internal to the beliefs of the
religion itself (Holy water, fine. Prayers, fine. Angels, fine. But you
don't see too many 'Salvation Points'...well, outside of something like
In Nomine).

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 21
From: Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 07:17:24 -0800
> > > man I wish FASA had just asked a native or two first
> > > before writing up
> > > the whole totems system... It's so hard to play sometimes when you get
> > > something you know in your gut feels terribly wrong.
>
> Like trolls in LA, functioning cyberware, and the date being 2060?
> I'm not sure who the above was quoted from (it's not David), but...
> suspension of disbelief. Know it, love it.
>
Suspension of disbelief works for added elements. But not when removing
and redefining cultural archetypes.

For instance, what if the book said that all Catholic priests in NA
are italian guys with mustaches and funny accents in black hats.

Can you find that reasonable to suspend disbelief on?

How about this one:

Christians follow a death totem: Jesus. This totem demands they
spend their lives preparing for salvation and killing or converting all
who don't follow the cult. Magic in this cult is based on banishing spirits
and cursing people to have their spirits send to a realm refered to as 'hell'.

The cult members are generally psychotic and have a fanatic level of
devotion?


Insulting? Hard to relate to?

It's closer to the truth than most of the totems come. It's just based
on the bad things found in some christian groups and conviently skips the good.

Every time someone woith shamanic beliefs opens up to the magic
section of one of these books; they get a feeling similar to what the christian
members of this group will get when they read my new 'totem' above.

Religion's a very touchy item. Hard to deal with in RPGs. SR would
have been better off calling them archetypes over totem. Or calling them
Totems and giving each a theme then listing some sample animals from various
rela world and fictional cultures that belong to that theme.

Like this:

Motherly totem:
gives X, penalizes Y. These guys are motherly, blah, blah, blah.. rant...
Animals: Europeans might see mother goddesses. Native American from NA
might see spiders. Christians might see the Virgin Mary. etc...

This doesn't mean this is what it is. This is how the mind of
the Shaman filters the magic through so that they can
understand it.
The true nature of magic's relationship to religion is unknown
even to the people of the sixth world.


--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG Town Hall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site
Message no. 22
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:21:15 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Michael R Papas wrote:
/
/ Greetings,
/ I was wondering if I can get any feedback and/or
/ suggestions on how to build a shaman of Mantis
/ without being able to summon insect spirits.
/ (Nasty things though they are ;>)

Here's how I deal with it.

Insect Shamans follow, and are granted power by, Insect Queens.

Shamans follow Totems.

There are Insect Totems, which are similar to Animal Totems. They have
advantages and or disadvantages, spell casting modifiers, and spirit
summoning modifiers and/or restrictions.

PC Shamans can follow Insect Totems.

I'd suggest working with the player to create Mantis the Totem.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 23
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:03:44 -0500
Quoting Brian Wong (rook@*****.INFINEX.COM):
> Every time someone woith shamanic beliefs opens up to the magic
> section of one of these books; they get a feeling similar to what the christia
> members of this group will get when they read my new 'totem' above.

Hmm. Okay, you're obviously right in some cases (I assume that you
yourself have shamanic beliefs, and the book strikes you in this was). I'd
be an idiot if I told you 'no, you don't feel that way!' :)
And looking at it again, I can see your point. I think your
counterexample was a bit exagerated (off the top of my head, I can't think of
any of the non-insect totems that have particularly negative portrayals, just
portrayals that emphasize traits characteristic of some cultures'
interpretations and not others), but since magic and spirits (Christian,
pagan, or otherwise) aren't really central (or even minor) elements of my
own spirituality, I underestimated the importance their portrayal might have
for people who DO emphasize those things.
Shadowrun, however, while it does make some statements about the
totems it lists in terms of personality and orientation, doesn't say anything
about what they really are (the nature of the totems themselves isn't really
discussed much), and it doesn't say anything about religion centering around
them. There's a big, BIG difference between a shaman (spontaneous, internally-
oriented magician inspired by a totem concept) and a Shaman (a figure of
cultural and religious authority, support, and wisdom). In Shadowrun's 2060,
I'd guess that most or all Shaman are shaman, but not all shaman are Shaman.
The ability to use magic doesn't automatically make you a pillar of the
community, a repository of cultural wisdom, or even particularly responsible.
Which brings to mind an interesting character concept - what about magicians
who are called by a totem, but don't want to accept the role their culture
expects of them as a consequence of that? (For that matter, imagine being
born magically active in a culture that prizes shamanism, but never being
called by a totem. Where do the people born in the NAN with hermetic talent
go?). I'll save some of that stuff for another mailing, though.

> Religion's a very touchy item. Hard to deal with in RPGs. SR would
> have been better off calling them archetypes over totem. Or calling them
> Totems and giving each a theme then listing some sample animals from various
> rela world and fictional cultures that belong to that theme.
>
> Like this:
>
> Motherly totem:
> gives X, penalizes Y. These guys are motherly, blah, blah, blah.. rant...
> Animals: Europeans might see mother goddesses. Native American from NA
> might see spiders. Christians might see the Virgin Mary. etc...
>
> This doesn't mean this is what it is. This is how the mind of
> the Shaman filters the magic through so that they can
> understand it.
> The true nature of magic's relationship to religion is unknown
> even to the people of the sixth world.

YES. This would have been MUCH better. I agree wholeheartedly.
It wouldn't work perfectly (there are details to the way any concept is
understood in a culture that won't generalize well), but it would, I think,
work well enough. They started to do this a bit with the German 'totems', but
they could have taken it further.
Okay. Well, just because THEY didn't do it, doesn't mean that WE can't
do it. Let's start listing archetypes, Rook, and see what we can come up with.
To get the ball rolling (obviously, some of these will overlap):

Guardian
Mother
Creator
Trickster
Lorekeeper
Lawgiver
Nurturer/Healer

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 24
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:07:09 -0500
Quoting Brian Wong (rook@*****.INFINEX.COM):
> Insulting? Hard to relate to?
>
> It's closer to the truth than most of the totems come. It's just based
> on the bad things found in some christian groups and conviently skips the good

Okay, after reading this again...were you thinking about the insect
totems when you wrote this? Those're highly negative, obviously, but they're
still the only ones I can think of that're that bad.

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 25
From: Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:26:33 -0800
> > Insulting? Hard to relate to?
> >
> > It's closer to the truth than most of the totems come. It's just based
> > on the bad things found in some christian groups and conviently skips the good
>
> Okay, after reading this again...were you thinking about the insect
> totems when you wrote this? Those're highly negative, obviously, but they're
> still the only ones I can think of that're that bad.

Actually no. I was trying to warp it out from what it's followers
feel it is. But still keep it within the realm of how it is often seen
by outsiders. That's just what came to mind as an easy example. Plus making
it negative ensures it gets noticed for it's flaws where they are.

I know I'll get at least one bozo who misses my point and instead
focuses on my 'warped christian totem'...

My point simply having been that the totems would be better served
by being generic themes followed up by some examples of how they manifest
in either some 'sample shamans' or some 'sample cultures'. To include the
'totem for the non religious'....

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG Town Hall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site
Message no. 26
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:29:51 -0500
>Quoting Brian Wong (rook@*****.INFINEX.COM):
>> Insulting? Hard to relate to?
>>
>> It's closer to the truth than most of the totems come. It's just
>>based
>> on the bad things found in some christian groups and conviently skips
the >>good

As I see it, the real problem is the diversity within native american
culture. Each region, sometimes even each tribe, had their own system of
beliefs and it pretty-much came from their envionment. Each region had its
own belief of what creatures represented death, creation, good and evil.

You can only generalize to a certain level of abstraction, however, before
it all falls apart. And who gets insulted by the 'Motherly' totem? I have
friends who would have problems with motherly being to close to a
gender-role designed by an opressive male-oriented civilization. Implying
that motherly is neccessarily a protective totem would not sit well with
Jenny (but hey, she doesn't role-play, anyway :).

I have to agree with whoever it was that said where-ever you walk on this
one, you will be wrong by somebody.

I dislike abstracting the shamanic system all the way up to the level of
'Guardian', 'Builder', 'Destroyer', etc... because it removes a lot of the
flavor of shamanism.

...er, okay, I'm lying -- I dislike it because I don't want to take on the
work of re-writing all of the rules that apply and then arguing with my
players over what they can and cannot do. :)


Shaun Gilroy [shaung@**********.net]
Online Technologies Corporation
Message no. 27
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 11:44:49 -0500
Quoting Shaun Gilroy (shaung@**********.NET):
> I dislike abstracting the shamanic system all the way up to the level of
> 'Guardian', 'Builder', 'Destroyer', etc... because it removes a lot of the
> flavor of shamanism.

Damn straight! If the hermetics can't have any flavor, why should
the shamans? :) :)

Seriously, though, I don't think Rook was suggestion 'I'm a shaman
of a Guardian totem'. You'd still pick a specific totem, flavor to taste
based upon whatever culture you like, and derive the game-mechanics from a
general cross-cultural category. The category might depend on your character's
take on the totem, as well - for instance, it's my understanding that in
the Pacific Northwest, Raven could be considered either a Creator or a
Trickster, or both, depending on how you think about it. On the other hand,
in Northern Europe, Raven has an entirely different character. The system
as it stands doesn't deal well with that.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 28
From: Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:56:38 -0800
> > I dislike abstracting the shamanic system all the way up to the level of
> > 'Guardian', 'Builder', 'Destroyer', etc... because it removes a lot of the
> > flavor of shamanism.
>
> Seriously, though, I don't think Rook was suggestion 'I'm a shaman
> of a Guardian totem'. You'd still pick a specific totem, flavor to taste
> based upon whatever culture you like, and derive the game-mechanics from a
> general cross-cultural category. The category might depend on your character's
> take on the totem, as well - for instance, it's my understanding that in
> the Pacific Northwest, Raven could be considered either a Creator or a
> Trickster, or both, depending on how you think about it. On the other hand,
> in Northern Europe, Raven has an entirely different character. The system
> as it stands doesn't deal well with that.
>

This is exactly what I'm suggesting.

Raven's a good example too. Cause move to someplace like Korea and it's
suddenly a 'toxic totem' of pure evil. Same for cat by the way. Cat in Korea
would be decietful, full of lies, coniving, maybe even a soul stealer.

So yeah. I'd like generic mechanics to the game which you mask with a
totem based to fit the character's needs and / or culture.

And I could rant on forever on ways to give hermetic's occult orders.
Golden Dawn, O.T.O., Masons, Inquisition, etc... They could be 'masked' in very
rich themes as well.

--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG Town Hall Magistrate
townhall.webrpg.com <0){{{{><
__ Super WebRing http://orion.supersoldiers.com/heroes/webring.html
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero RPG Site
Message no. 29
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:20:21 -0500
Quoting Brian Wong (rook@*****.INFINEX.COM):
> So yeah. I'd like generic mechanics to the game which you mask with a
> totem based to fit the character's needs and / or culture.
>
> And I could rant on forever on ways to give hermetic's occult orders.
> Golden Dawn, O.T.O., Masons, Inquisition, etc... They could be 'masked' in very
> rich themes as well.
>

Yeah, my big problem with Hermetics in SR isn't that they're less
powerful than shamans (that's a debate I don't want to open, though I think
they're SLIGHTLY less powerful, if only because while shamans have benefits
and weaknesses from their totems, they'll tend to be benefits that help them
do things that are important to them and weaknesses that hinder things they
didn't want to do anyway, just because it's perfectly natural for characters
to develop that way), but that they're less interesting. Hermetics are
basically just 'those magicians who do magic in no particularly interesting
way'. They're defined more by what they aren't (they're not shamans, or
voodoun practicioners, etc etc) than what they are. And because they don't
offer any detail about what it means to be a Hermetic, characters often
end up sort of bland, too..."How does he do his magic? Well, you know. He's
just sort of a Hermetic."
Hopefully, MitS will have some better detail about Hermetics and
how they work, as fodder for more interesting characters. I've had the urge
for a while to play a 'real' Hermetic (to the extent that I know anything about
the topic, which isn't much), but it wasn't quite right for our current
campaign, so I have to wait.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 30
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:01:20 -0600
> {Side note: I don't think the books make mainstream
> religions 'wrong'
> and pagan beliefs 'right'. I do, however, think that they make mainstream
> religions and Hermeticism BORING, and pagan beliefs and shamanism COOL.

I definitely agree with this.

> Okay, back on topic. As you said, if FASA had tried to
> model actual
> pagan or shamanistic beliefs in their game system, they'd have gotten in
> trouble. But not, as I think you assume, with the Christians.

Nope, a little of both. I was actually talking about two different topics at
the same time. Pagans and native americans could potentially be offended
(for the reasons you mention later). Also, Chrisitans could be offended,
because for them, pagan beliefs are *wrong*.

> However, the PAGANS would know. And it's been my
> experience that there
> is a noticable lack of consensus on what constitute 'real pagan beliefs'
> among the pagan community.

Absolutely.

> This is why, though some games may use the trappings of religion,
> very few try to model anything that's internal to the beliefs of the
> religion itself (Holy water, fine. Prayers, fine. Angels, fine. But you
> don't see too many 'Salvation Points'...well, outside of something like
> In Nomine).

Yep, and the closer they get, the harder they are to defend from the
'faithful'.



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 31
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:17:38 EST
In a message dated 11/2/98 8:35:37 AM Pacific Standard Time,
shaung@**********.NET writes:

>
> As I see it, the real problem is the diversity within native american
> culture. Each region, sometimes even each tribe, had their own system of
> beliefs and it pretty-much came from their envionment. Each region had its
> own belief of what creatures represented death, creation, good and evil.
I think they just went for the "common sense" type ideas for the totems, not
based on any real animals or real totems. Sure the animals were flawed, but
they were meant for a certain audience, and flavor that was easily
understandable. The totems of various cultures may vary greatly, but these
"modern perceptions" were easier. As well, maybe in 2050 the Genocide campaign
targeted leaders of the tribes, and all they were left with was "TV totems"
for inspiration?
Message no. 32
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:51:56 +1000
>Noticed that too. I have a little Sioux blood in the family, so I know a
>little history. A lot of the totems would be better if they checked with
>the natives.

A lot of Shadowrun's location material would be better if they checked with
the natives, too...

(... gee, haven't we had this conversation lately? *grin*)

BTW, sorry for replying late to this stuff, I only just got back from a
couple of days away.

Lady Jestyr

- In the force if Yoda's so strong, then construct a sentence -
- with words in the proper order why can't he? -
- jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr -
Message no. 33
From: Brian Wong <rook@*****.INFINEX.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:08:32 -0800
> >Noticed that too. I have a little Sioux blood in the family, so I know a
> >little history. A lot of the totems would be better if they checked with
> >the natives.
>
> A lot of Shadowrun's location material would be better if they checked with
> the natives, too...
>
> (... gee, haven't we had this conversation lately? *grin*)
>

Lately I've been thinking SR was designed using the wandering monster
tables in the back of the 1st edition AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide filtered
through 10 cups of espresso, 3 episodes of the smurfs, somebody's old
Gamma World campaign, and a bad LSD trip.

:)

--
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Message no. 34
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 01:23:10 -0600
> Lately I've been thinking SR was designed using the
> wandering monster
> tables in the back of the 1st edition AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide filtered
> through 10 cups of espresso, 3 episodes of the smurfs, somebody's old
> Gamma World campaign, and a bad LSD trip.

Looking at Tom Dowd...you never know...



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 35
From: barbie@********.DE
Subject: Re: Mantis Shamans?
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:57:23 +0100
Subject: Mantis Shamans?

[snipy snip]

Well, I played a real mantis shaman for some time, why reduce a
great totem?

-Barbie

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Mantis Shamans?, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!