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Message no. 1
From: Forbidden Delirium <fdelirum@****.NET>
Subject: Mantis Spirit Host Questions
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 16:42:59 -0500
another question... heh.

Would a Mantis spirit (female of course) help out people? How much would
the memories of the person the spirit occupied influence the Mantis's
general reaction to helping people, liking people, etc.
And the big one, would it be possable for someone to maintain control of
themselves with a Mantis spirit inside of them. Sorta like she is still
human, and has human emotions, but is also strongly influenced by the
experience of having a Mantis spirit try and merge with her. This came
from me thinking up NPC ideas.. heh.

fd
Message no. 2
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Spirit Host Questions
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 22:59:55 -0500
<Snip Mantis Questions>

Check out the first story in the second printing of "Into the Shadows" the
Shadowrun anthology.
They have a small example of how a mantis spirit would act after
possession.

IMHO, and in our campaign, mantids are glad to e helpful to runners as long
as their goals are being well served.
Personally I find them the most "human" of all the insect spirits.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com./users/bluewizard
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Mantis Spirit Host Questions
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 11:27:13 +0100
Forbidden Delirium said on 16:42/25 Dec 96...

> Would a Mantis spirit (female of course) help out people?

If it helps the spirit do whatever she has in mind, then I don't see why
they wouldn't. OTOH they should be unpredictable (to humans, at least --
to other mantis spirits, they may be transparent as a window pane).

> How much would the memories of the person the spirit occupied influence
> the Mantis's general reaction to helping people, liking people, etc.

They'd probably form the basis of all matis <-> human interaction, because
it's unlikely the mantis has had any previous experience with (meta)humans
before it occupied the host body. IMHO the mantis would base its decisions
at least in part on the values and judgments of the host.

> And the big one, would it be possable for someone to maintain control of
> themselves with a Mantis spirit inside of them. Sorta like she is still
> human, and has human emotions, but is also strongly influenced by the
> experience of having a Mantis spirit try and merge with her. This came
> from me thinking up NPC ideas.. heh.

I don't think so -- the insect spirit takes over completely, and pushes
the original mind/personality out of the way, to be referred to when
necessary. If the spirit is a good actor, it could be able to fool
everyone that it is a (meta)human, but the spirit takes control at all
times.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And a wave of overwhelming doubt turns me to stone...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 4
From: Forbidden Delirium <fdelirum@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Mantis Spirit Host Questions
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 09:04:26 -0500
>If it helps the spirit do whatever she has in mind, then I don't see why
>they wouldn't. OTOH they should be unpredictable (to humans, at least --
>to other mantis spirits, they may be transparent as a window pane).

Alright.. unpredictable. The hard part I'm running into is defining
unpredictable. What kind of plots or motives would the mantid have that
might seem strange to the party? Besides hunting down other bugs, and
maybe capturing some people to create some new spirits. Granted.. I guess
that's pretty strange.. but do you have any other ideas for things Mantids
might do? How they might generally use people to their advantage?

>I don't think so -- the insect spirit takes over completely, and pushes
>the original mind/personality out of the way, to be referred to when
>necessary. If the spirit is a good actor, it could be able to fool
>everyone that it is a (meta)human, but the spirit takes control at all
>times.

Ah ok. I asked that question because a player/GM(Earthdawn) asked me if
it was possable for his character to have a Mantis girlfriend (without
becoming a male Mantis spirit). I was like.. woah.. let me consult the
list. heh. Thanx. =)

fd
Message no. 5
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Spirit Host Questions
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 13:27:37 EST
On Wed, 25 Dec 1996 16:42:59 -0500 Forbidden Delirium <fdelirum@****.NET>
writes:
>another question... heh.
>
> Would a Mantis spirit (female of course) help out people? How
>much would
>the memories of the person the spirit occupied influence the Mantis's
>general reaction to helping people, liking people, etc.
> And the big one, would it be possable for someone to maintain
>control of
>themselves with a Mantis spirit inside of them. Sorta like she is
>still
>human, and has human emotions, but is also strongly influenced by the
>experience of having a Mantis spirit try and merge with her. This
>came
>from me thinking up NPC ideas.. heh.
>
>fd
>
I don't personally have a problem with "anima" mantids, but this opinion
may change as I just got Bug City today:) and I still haven't read all
the material on Invae in the Grimmythingy 2nd edition:( Currently,
however, I'm planning on introducing an anima mantid...I don't think,
however, that the original personality can control the mantid. I think
that the person who was possessed is dead, her soul has either been
separated/destroyed (or whatever it would normally do when you die) or
has been co-opted in the possession, destroying the actual personality of
the possessed person. After the possession, there would only be one
personality: the spirit's. Yes, the mantid can assume the host's
personality, possesses the host's memories and would probably be
infulenced by said remembrances, but the insect spirit would always be in
control, because the other personality can no longer fight for dominance.
I think. All IMO, of course:)

Canthros-the-doesn't-know-quite-what-he's-talking-about-shapeshifter-mage
Message no. 6
From: Forbidden Delirium <fdelirum@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Mantis Spirit Host Questions
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 14:58:25 -0500
>personality: the spirit's. Yes, the mantid can assume the host's
>personality, possesses the host's memories and would probably be
>infulenced by said remembrances, but the insect spirit would always be in
>control, because the other personality can no longer fight for dominance.
>I think. All IMO, of course:)

True, all very good points. About the only thing I've really done is do
away with the 'Mantids will want to create other mantids every blah blah
days/weeks'. They're pretty intelligent for bugs, so I based they're
instincts more on who they merged with. For example I have one NPC Mantis
Spirit who took the body of a ruthless female corporate lawyer..
consiquently she's much more intrested in hunting things than taking time
to summon more Mantids. :) Of course I'm just babbling now..
Have you changed anything?

fd, will start a new msg.. for his latest question now..
Message no. 7
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mantis Spirit Host Questions
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 22:37:53 -0800
On Thu, 26 Dec 1996, Forbidden Delirium wrote:

[snip 'unpredictable mantis spirits' stuff]

>
> Ah ok. I asked that question because a player/GM(Earthdawn) asked me if
> it was possable for his character to have a Mantis girlfriend (without
> becoming a male Mantis spirit). I was like.. woah.. let me consult the
> list. heh. Thanx. =)
>
> fd
>

I'd say Yeah, let him have a Mantis Girlfriend, but she'd be the one that
initiated the relationship...and who knows what she wants from it...hehe
(even better, tell him 'no' but make her one any way....)

"Be careful what you wish for, you may get it..."
- some proverb I heard once.

~Tim
Message no. 8
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Spirit Host Questions
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 03:15:09 -0500
At 04:42 PM 12/25/96 -0500, you wrote:
>another question... heh.
>
> Would a Mantis spirit (female of course) help out people? How much
would
>the memories of the person the spirit occupied influence the Mantis's
>general reaction to helping people, liking people, etc.
> And the big one, would it be possable for someone to maintain
control of
>themselves with a Mantis spirit inside of them. Sorta like she is still
>human, and has human emotions, but is also strongly influenced by the
>experience of having a Mantis spirit try and merge with her. This came
>from me thinking up NPC ideas.. heh.
>
Well... It's up to your GM (or personal preference if you ARE the GM), and
also depends on how blatantly dark your bugs are, or how snaky you want to
be....

But, yes to both questions. That's how we use them anyways...

I'll post more details tomorrow when I haven't been staring at little
letters all night and have some sleep and time... But it should give you a
good idea of how to do it if you want to go that way with it...

Bull-the-bug-stompin'-ork-decker

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= =
= chaos@*****,com =
= =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"Why am I here?"
-Robin Williams, "Good Morning Vietnam"
Message no. 9
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Spirit Host Questions
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 16:32:49 -0500
Ok, here's my two bits azbout the whole Mantis debate. Some of you have
heard these details before, so please bear with me. Also keep in mind that
our GM likes to mess with our heads wuite a bit, and sometimes has his own
strange ideas of how things work, although I know that most people don't
quite agree...

Ok, for starters... We have encountered the Mantids (and every other type
of fraggin' bug) frequently in our game. Our characters actually consider
the Mantids to be allies (Of a sort. Bull doesn't really trust them, but
they've not screwed us over... Yet). We've had one NPC become a Mantis
True Form (Beckey, a former Rat Shaman that was married to Bull's partner,
Johnny 99), and had another NPC turn out to be a Mantis.

Also, just this weekend we started our Christmas in Shadowrun game, which
tied up a lot of old plots, started a bunch of new ones, and was primarily
an RP session for our characters... no combat involved...:) Anyways, we
had a Christmas get together, and Becky showed up. And one of our players
(a female) willingly became a Mantis host.

But that's how we play with them...

Here'wswhere our viewpoints are somewhat justified by FASA material, and
where what strange reasoning we have comes from...

First off, Mantis Spirits, and how I see them. Seeing as how Mantis was in
the Grimmy (I think) long before Bug City came out, I always saw Mantis as
something a bit similar to Spider. Strange, scheming, intelligent, but not
quite evil. just selfish, and self serving, willing to use anyone and do
anythng to attain it's (her?) own goals...

Sure, they have a connection to the bugs, but I don't see them as quite the
same as the bugs, for a couple reasons. First off, they primarily hunt the
bugs, as opposed to hunting humans. Humans are, at the least, an obstacle.

Second is the way that the Mantis have been portrayed by FASA in their
stories and adventures....

In the second edition of the "Into the Shadows" anthology, there is a story
about a Mantis Spirit that tries to explain to someone hunting her that she
isn't totally a bug. That she willingly merged with the Mantis to gain
power, and because she agreed with the Mantids "cause" (or whatever).
granted, she could have been lying, but then again, she might not have....

BTW... for those of you who have only read the first edition of Into the
Shdaows, the Mantis story replaces the first story, which was just the first
chapter of Charrete's Secrets of Power trilogy.

Also, and this is getting into the realm of spoilers involving Mantids, Bugs
in General, and Super Tuesday, so.....

SPOILER SPACE!!!!
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
@
Ok, that should do it....

Anyways, In Super Tuesday, the Mantids lure Anne penchyk, running mate of
General Yeats, into Chicago to try and turn her into a Mantis. They did
this, hoping to get someone out fo Chicago and into a position of power.
Later, in a seperate adventure, General Yeats is killed, and it turns out
that he was a bug, and that Penchyk, with the help of the Mantids, stopped
him. Apparently the Bugs are out of Chicago, and working MUCH more
secretively than they did last time they were out and about (The UB). It
doesn't state anywhere in the Game Stuff that Anne IS a mantis, and hints in
various places that she isn't. She IS, most definately, aiding the Mantids now.

Also, in Dunkie's Will, there is a S-Land comment about Anne Penchyk havingf
powerful allies by someone called Vixen... Which, coincidentally (I think
not:)), is the name of the head Mantis from Chicago and Bug City...

Remember, we know that no one else really uses the Mantids this way, but it
has added something to our game.

Bull

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= =
= chaos@*****,com =
= =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"Ooooohhhhhhh!"
-Me, after seeing the trailers for the Star
Wars Special Editions in the theater.
Message no. 10
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Mantis Spirit Host Questions
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 15:26:23 +0000
On 25 Dec 96 at 22:59, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
[snip Mantis question and references]
> IMHO, and in our campaign, mantids are glad to e helpful to runners as long
> as their goals are being well served.
> Personally I find them the most "human" of all the insect spirits.
Well, you have a very... _special_ campaign anyway, so that has to be taken
with a grain of salt at least... :-)

They are not "human" - they only share one goal with humanity (hunting other
bugs). Did anyone notice they are the only totem in SR that follows the
predator-victim-profile? Dog and Cat don't, but Mantis and Ant do... strange.

Well, Invae are strange anyway...

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | T'dr'duzuk b'hazg t't! |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ |[Dwarven Battlecry,means|
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de |'This Is A Good Day For |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| Someone Else To Die!'] |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Terry Pratchett |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 11
From: "Brian S." <n64dragn@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: Mantis Spirit Host Questions
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 13:44:02 -0800
Sascha Pabst wrote:
>
> On 25 Dec 96 at 22:59, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
> [snip Mantis question and references]
> > IMHO, and in our campaign, mantids are glad to e helpful to runners as long
> > as their goals are being well served.
> > Personally I find them the most "human" of all the insect spirits.
> Well, you have a very... _special_ campaign anyway, so that has to be taken
> with a grain of salt at least... :-)
>
> They are not "human" - they only share one goal with humanity (hunting
other
> bugs). Did anyone notice they are the only totem in SR that follows the
> predator-victim-profile? Dog and Cat don't, but Mantis and Ant do... strange.
>
> Well, Invae are strange anyway...
>
> Sascha

Come to think of it, I haven't seen alot of any totem to totem
relationships, and some of the possibiliteis could prove to be
intresting.

hmmm..
Message no. 12
From: Peter Leitch <pleitch_hpcs@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Mantis Spirit Host Questions
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 01:02:18 +1100
At 13:44 31/12/96 -0800, you wrote:
>Sascha Pabst wrote:
>> Did anyone notice they (mantids) are the only totem in SR that follows the
>> predator-victim-profile? Dog and Cat don't, but Mantis and Ant do...
strange.
>>
>> Well, Invae are strange anyway...
>>
>> Sascha
>
>Come to think of it, I haven't seen alot of any totem to totem
>relationships, and some of the possibiliteis could prove to be
>intresting.
>
>hmmm..

Yeah, I noticed that. Which is something of a question in our campaign,
because one of my characters is a hyena shaman, and another person
sometimes plays a warthog shaman. Sort of like pedator and prey, but we
can't really figure how to react to eact other, so we avoid playing those
characters on the same nights. When I play the hyena shaman, he plays the
former joygirl. When he plays the warthog shaman, I play the irresponsible
elven physad. One of these days, they might meet...and then ;-{) I'll
*EAT* him.


Peter Leitch <pleitch_hpcs@*******.com.au>
Message no. 13
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Mantis Spirit Host Questions
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 12:41:11 -0000
> Alright.. unpredictable. The hard part I'm running into is
defining
> unpredictable. What kind of plots or motives would the mantid have that
> might seem strange to the party? Besides hunting down other bugs, and
> maybe capturing some people to create some new spirits. Granted.. I
guess
> that's pretty strange.. but do you have any other ideas for things
Mantids
> might do? How they might generally use people to their advantage?

Check out Super Tuesday. It will give you some ideas along this vein. I
won't say more to avoid Spoilers.

@>--'--,--- Loki

/>
/<
[\\\\\\(O):::<======================================-
\< Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki
\>


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