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Message no. 1
From: Marcel Emami <rab@***.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE>
Subject: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:32:28 +0200
Hi
I've started a new campaign in SR and my guys wanted to be soldiers. Big
Guns and the permission no the ORDER to use it.
After Ive player the half year trainings course the are now privates (FC)
one corporal and one sarge (he is allways yelling).
Now i had to give them equipment.
My ideas are
each
Colt manhunter and M-23 or
Colt Cobra and Colt Manhunter or
Colt M22-a and Colt Manhunter

Helmet (1/1)
Flak vest (2/1)

6 grenades
3 clips per weapon

One Colt General Purpuse (I love that since SSC) MMG for the squad


Now foe u military Dudes out there what Did i forgot? Any suggestions ?
--
Kruss und Guss
Rab
E-mail: Rab@***.informatik.uni-mannheim.de
WWW : http://fim.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/~rab
GeekCode 3.0:
GM d-(+) s: a- C+(+++) U+ P? L>+ N K? w+$ o-->++ M V? PS+(++) PE-(--)
Y@ PGP@ t-(---) 5++ X@ R+++>$ tv+ b++ DI D++ G+
e+ h r+ y+
Message no. 2
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 05:52:15 -0400
Rab wrote:
> I've started a new campaign in SR and my guys wanted to be soldiers. Big
> Guns and the permission no the ORDER to use it.
> After Ive player the half year trainings course the are now privates (FC)
> one corporal and one sarge (he is allways yelling).

The corporal and the sergeant are PCs too, it sounds like, which
is good, it sounds like they all went through training together? I've
never been in the military, myself, but I wouldn't think that there'd be
so much difference in rank in people who all entered the service just
a few months ago.

> Now i had to give them equipment.
> My ideas are
> each
> Colt manhunter and M-23 or
> Colt Cobra and Colt Manhunter or
> Colt M22-a and Colt Manhunter
>
> Helmet (1/1)
> Flak vest (2/1)
>
> 6 grenades
> 3 clips per weapon
>
> One Colt General Purpuse (I love that since SSC) MMG for the squad
>
> Now foe u military Dudes out there what Did i forgot? Any suggestions ?

First suggestion: Buy Fields of Fire. Read it, learn it, love it :)

Next suggestion. You have them WAY under-armored. Take a look at the
weapons you've given them. Now, remember that soldiers, generally speaking,
fight other soldiers. Would you want to be shot at by the weapons you've
listed, wearing the armor you've listed? I'd recommend the camo suits
from FoF - suit is 3/1, plus a jacket that's 5/3. That and a helmet,
and they'll be in much better shape. I assume the suits have been designed
to breath and provide natural ventilation, so people wearing them don't
keel over from heat stroke.

What sort of thing are they going to be doing? My gut instinct
is that they probably wouldn't be issued Cobras if they're line infantry.
Those folks, I think, usually use battle rifles like the M-23 or
Ares Combat Gun. They may have pistols as backups, but the SMG sort of
sits in the middle...I think they're usually used by people who do
their fighting in cramped quarters (like inside buildings) where a full-sized
rifle would be awkward. Of course, I'm pulling this out of my ass, so I
could be wrong.

--Sean
Message no. 3
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 03:14:21 -0700
>Now foe u military Dudes out there what Did i forgot? Any suggestions ?

Objective Infantry Combat Weapon Block 4. ;-)

> Kruss und Guss
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 4
From: Marcel Emami <rab@***.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:38:08 +0200
> --Adam

> >Now for u military Dudes out there what Did i forgot? Any suggestions ?
>
> Objective Infantry Combat Weapon Block 4. ;-)


Excuse me ?


Kruss und Guss
Rab
E-mail: Rab@***.informatik.uni-mannheim.de
WWW : http://fim.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/~rab
GeekCode 3.0:
GM d-(+) s: a- C+(+++) U+ P? L>+ N K? w+$ o-->++ M V? PS+(++) PE-(--)
Y@ PGP@ t-(---) 5++ X@ R+++>$ tv+ b++ DI D++ G+
e+ h r+ y+
Message no. 5
From: Marcel Emami <rab@***.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:50:24 +0200
> --Sean

> The corporal and the sergeant are PCs too, it sounds like, which
> is good, it sounds like they all went through training together? I've
> never been in the military, myself, but I wouldn't think that there'd be
> so much difference in rank in people who all entered the service just
> a few months ago.
It is not like in the army u sign for rank or for sragent and up or for
Officier- carrer and it takers along time from private to Sargent a lot of
promotion if ever, but I wanted to have ranks in the group, so That I
Issue the order :"thake that hill" and the PC`s do the planning and all
that stuff


> First suggestion: Buy Fields of Fire. Read it, learn it, love it :)
Have reads it and still need some advice such as some flask or other no
Weapon stuff. In Fof there are guns, big guns and greater guns and armor
and tanks nothing more (except climbing gear and nightglider)
But how much of it and other stuff
I have seen an pic of a marine with a haul of load (Toaster and bread for
years:)) and I wnated to nknow what they are packing or what Do u would
pack them.

>
> Next suggestion. You have them WAY under-armored. Take a look at the

Could be, but are soldiers nowdays armored ? I Do not know maybe I pack
them Armorjackets


> What sort of thing are they going to be doing? My gut instinct
> is that they probably wouldn't be issued Cobras if they're line infantry.
> Those folks, I think, usually use battle rifles like the M-23 or
> Ares Combat Gun. They may have pistols as backups, but the SMG sort of
> sits in the middle...I think they're usually used by people who do
I thougt for people with less strenght but still the lust for autofire



> rifle would be awkward. Of course, I'm pulling this out of my ass, so I
> could be wrong.

Me too :)

--
Kruss und Guss
Rab
E-mail: Rab@***.informatik.uni-mannheim.de
WWW : http://fim.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/~rab
GeekCode 3.0:
GM d-(+) s: a- C+(+++) U+ P? L>+ N K? w+$ o-->++ M V? PS+(++) PE-(--)
Y@ PGP@ t-(---) 5++ X@ R+++>$ tv+ b++ DI D++ G+
e+ h r+ y+
Message no. 6
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:05:14 -0400
Rab wrote:
> >
> > Next suggestion. You have them WAY under-armored. Take a look at the
>
> Could be, but are soldiers nowdays armored ? I Do not know maybe I pack
> them Armorjackets

Soldiers today aren't particularly armored, but that doesn't mean
they won't be tomorrow. For a long time, personal armor just wasn't
practical for an infantry soldier on the modern battlefield, but as the
tech advances, it's getting more and more attractive.
Some other things they need: comm gear. Someone in the group should
be a communications specialist, probably, and they all ought to have
radios for (encrypted) communication within their unit. Contact with their
chain of command might be limited to whoever's in charge, to avoid
chatter. Consider using the BattleTac system, if they're in the right
sort of situation :)
Knives. Give them knives. And probably lots of other stuff...
has ANYONE here been in the military?

--Sean
Message no. 7
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:15:45 +0100
And verily, did Sean McCrohan hastily scribble thusly...
| Knives. Give them knives. And probably lots of other stuff...
|has ANYONE here been in the military?

Still am. Territorial Army. Royal Corps of Signals.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 8
From: AlSeyMer <AdSM@******.BE>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:48:12 +0200
Marcel Emami wrote:
> (snip)
> I've started a new campaign in SR and my guys wanted to be soldiers.
> (snip)
> Now i had to give them equipment.
> (snip)
> Now foe u military Dudes out there what Did i forgot? Any suggestions ?
> (snip)

You may want to give them a little bit more armor.
You may also consider to give them:
_ a sleeping bag;
_ a half tent;
_ a shovel-pick combination (has a name but i don't remember it);
_ mess kit, canteen, rations;
_ a watch;
_ a compass;
_ a flashlight (multicolored) for signaling;
_ some kind of night vision equipment;
_ some survival stuff, like a survival knife, rudimentary fishing equipment,
some rope (for snares and traps), a windproof lighter, some matches,a signaling
mirror, ...
_ a gas mask and some emergency NBC stuff in a medkit;
_ something to carry it all ;-)

Just my two cents, as they say.


AlSeyMer
Message no. 9
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:12:38 +0100
And verily, did AlSeyMer hastily scribble thusly...
|You may also consider to give them:
|_ a sleeping bag;
|_ a half tent;

A half tent?
Sod that. Just give them a poncho and some bungee cord.

|_ a shovel-pick combination (has a name but i don't remember it);

Only one needed for every other person.

|_ mess kit, canteen, rations;
|_ a watch;
|_ a compass;
|_ a flashlight (multicolored) for signaling;

Not really nessecary. Only the red filter is usefull.
(It reduces the light output enough and doesn't kill your night vision)

|_ some kind of night vision equipment;

Another possible bad idea. Natural night vision can get REALLY f**ked up by
things like image intensifiers.

|_ some survival stuff, like a survival knife, rudimentary fishing equipment,
|some rope (for snares and traps), a windproof lighter, some matches,a signaling
|mirror, ...

Also used to shave with.

|_ a gas mask and some emergency NBC stuff in a medkit;

Nahhh. Respirator, yes. NBC suit, yes. Combi-pens full of atropine should be
in the sleeve 'pen' pockets of the combat jacket. That way, the person can
find it easily to administer it. (You always use the person you're treatings
pen, NEVER your own. That's for you, and you alone).

The reason's obvious. Having the pens in an obvious place tells the person
how many doses you've already had, and restricts the dosage to a safe
ammount. (Each soldier carries 3 combi-pens).

|_ something to carry it all ;-)

Commonly known as webbing, a burgen and pockets.

Oh, and you forgot other essentials, like spare clothing, spare socks, foot
powder, washing/cleaning kit, boot cleaning kit.....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 10
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:16:48 -0400
> Hi
> I've started a new campaign in SR and my guys wanted to be soldiers.
> Big
<snip>

> My ideas are each Colt manhunter and M-23 or Colt Cobra and Colt
> Manhunter or Colt M22-a and Colt Manhunter
>
Since I don't have my book I'm gonna assume that one of
those has a grenade launcher attached (nearly every squad has at least
one).

> Helmet (1/1)
> Flak vest (2/1)
>
More armor.

> Now foe u military Dudes out there what Did i forgot? Any suggestions
> ?
>
If you want some tips and have the extra cash you might
pick up "Missions". Its a adventure set with several types of PC groups
designed to work together to complete a mission rather than a run. One
is Corp sec, one is docwagon, one is Lone Star undercover and the last
one is......<drumroll>..........UCAS black ops team. It basically runs a
short module complete with the tell it to them straight. Might give you
a good idea of what would be taken and what would be dropped in with the
unit (these guys had tents, supplies and ATV trikes air dropped in with
them).
It's a fun read and the actual story is kinda out there
but the background is good.
Message no. 11
From: AlSeyMer <AdSM@******.BE>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:50:20 +0200
Spike wrote:
>
> And verily, did AlSeyMer hastily scribble thusly...
> (snip)
> |_ some kind of night vision equipment;
>
> Another possible bad idea. Natural night vision can get REALLY f**ked up by
> things like image intensifiers.
You're right. I am assuming that this kind of stuff will become pretty standard
soon. If the battery problem is resolved (this means having batteries that can
power this kind of equipment long enough), and if the "field of view" (sorry, no
available translation...) can be widened, the current objections against this
kind of equipment will be pointless.
If a sufficient budget is available and if it doesn't weight too much ...
> (snip)
> |_ something to carry it all ;-)
>
> Commonly known as webbing, a burgen and pockets.
Thanks ;-)
> (snip)
> Oh, and you forgot other essentials, like spare clothing, spare socks, foot
> powder, washing/cleaning kit, boot cleaning kit.....
> --

Heheheee ;-)
Yes, i forgot.

If they are Marines, i am asking myself if i haven't also forgotten some kind of
life jacket.


AlSeyMer
Message no. 12
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:35:59 -0400
And verily, did AlSeyMer hastily scribble thusly...
> a shovel-pick combination (has a name but i don't remember it);

Entrenching tool.

Making a quick search for webpages about the military in Shadowrun,
I came up with:

"The Shadowrun Military Site"
(http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/6866/index.html)

I don't know if any of the contributors are on the list, but it's
worth a peek (though it seems to have an awful lot of information about
Special Forces...imagine that). Of note is the page about conventional
Shadowrun army troops. I think the author (Jason Carter) is mostly
correct in the things he's listed (at least, it looks good to me), though
I think their armor would be slightly stronger (5/3, say, or maybe a bit
more, rather than 4/2). I also think that (while correct in saying that
the standard trooper would NOT be loaded down with cyberware - it makes
no sense from the army's perspective) he may have underestimated the
value of vision and hearing enhancements. At least, that was what
our local veteran said would be the highest priority for military cyberware
the last time we had this conversation over dinner :) Sense enhancements
don't cost too much, and they don't have those pesky legality
problems after the soldier leaves the service.

--Sean
Message no. 13
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:06:43 -0400
Sean McCrohan wrote:
> "The Shadowrun Military Site"
>
> (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/6866/index.html)
>
> I don't know if any of the contributors are on the list, but it's
> worth a peek (though it seems to have an awful lot of information about
> Special Forces...imagine that). Of note is the page about conventional
> Shadowrun army troops. I think the author (Jason Carter) is mostly
> correct in the things he's listed (at least, it looks good to me), though
> I think their armor would be slightly stronger (5/3, say, or maybe a bit
> more, rather than 4/2). I also think that (while correct in saying that
> the standard trooper would NOT be loaded down with cyberware - it makes
>
Well, not *loaded* down, but definitely cybered. I'd guess at:
0.2E 1000 Datajack
0.5E 2500 Smartlink
0.2E 5000 Cybereyes with:
0.1E 2000 Flare comp
0.2E 1600 Image link
0.2E 3000 Thermo
0.1E 450 Retinal Clock
0.1E 3500 Elec mag 1
0E 500 Protective Covers
Total: 0.9E, 19,550Y

It may seem like a lot of money, but it enables the trooper to be
effective in day or night, have clear communications (through the
datajack), shoot much more accurately and generally increase
effectiveness - all at a reasonably low price (including the fact that
no more than 3 operations would be necessary).

Boosted reflexes might also be an option, but not really required.

> no sense from the army's perspective) he may have underestimated the
> value of vision and hearing enhancements. At least, that was what
> our local veteran said would be the highest priority for military
> cyberware
> the last time we had this conversation over dinner :) Sense enhancements
> don't cost too much, and they don't have those pesky legality
> problems after the soldier leaves the service.
>
Of the stuff I listed, only the smartlink isn't totally legal, and a
permit can be obtained for it. The military would probably also have
their own version containing a self-destruct sequence if the trooper
doesn't want to obtain a permit.

James Ojaste
Message no. 14
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:36:10 -0400
> > more, rather than 4/2). I also think that (while correct in saying
> that
> > the standard trooper would NOT be loaded down with cyberware - it
> makes
> >
> Well, not *loaded* down, but definitely cybered. I'd guess at:
> 0.2E 1000 Datajack
> 0.5E 2500 Smartlink
> 0.2E 5000 Cybereyes with:
> 0.1E 2000 Flare comp
> 0.2E 1600 Image link
> 0.2E 3000 Thermo
> 0.1E 450 Retinal Clock
> 0.1E 3500 Elec mag 1
> 0E 500 Protective Covers
> Total: 0.9E, 19,550Y
>
> It may seem like a lot of money, but it enables the trooper to be
> effective in day or night, have clear communications (through the
> datajack), shoot much more accurately and generally increase
> effectiveness - all at a reasonably low price (including the fact that
> no more than 3 operations would be necessary).
>
Also remember install cost and recoup time. Downtime is
bad in the military.

As was said previously I really can't see the military
spending this much money right off the bat. Your run of the mill grunt
(private) would probably have almost no cyber. Maybe a datajack. Once
they hit PFC or reup for another four I can definitely see them getting
some cyber. This would (again from the military's POV) mean that they
are committed to an extended (by at least 4 years) career in the
military. They have some certainty that the soldier is going to remain
in the service those next 4 years (they know what rules not to break and
aren't going to snap and go AWOL). I would imagine that ALL CO's and
sergeant+ NCO's would have this cyber package, maybe more.
Of course Green Beret's, Rangers, SEALs and such are
gonna be cybered to the gills. Pilots are also going to get some (VCR,
vision mods) sooner as the govt has already committed a good bit of
money to them in training alone.

I guess some training and recoup time could be made up
in sims. With simsense you can train a guy pretty good, particularly
since they can use full sensory input (just below BTL) to train with.


"How many drops have you made?"
"38...simulated."
"How many REAL drops?"
"Two....including this one."
Message no. 15
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:43:14 -0400
At 11:06 AM 9/16/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Well, not *loaded* down, but definitely cybered. I'd guess at:
>0.2E 1000 Datajack
>0.5E 2500 Smartlink
>0.2E 5000 Cybereyes with:
>0.1E 2000 Flare comp
>0.2E 1600 Image link
>0.2E 3000 Thermo
>0.1E 450 Retinal Clock
>0.1E 3500 Elec mag 1
>0E 500 Protective Covers
>Total: 0.9E, 19,550Y

As Bryan pointed out, it is far more likely that second tour soldiers are
going to get these goodies, rather than the "boots" fresh into the service.

Let's not forget however, folks, that the US Army is very serious about the
entire "Future Trooper" concept, with the planned soldier of the future
having what we would call in SR a smartgun, smartgoggles with light-light,
something approaching BattleTac, plus a few other goodies.

I'd find it very appropriate that the average soldier would be equipped
with a M-23, smartgun linked to the soldier's smartgoggles. The goggles
would also have at least low-light and probably also have maybe a level or
two of vision magnification and perhaps thermo. A GPS system. High level
encrypted communications. All linked to BattleTac.

A veteran soldier might have some of that replaced, as suggested, with
cybernetic replacements. This would probably allow that soldier to now
carry additional gear, like maybe a LAW rocket, extra rations or something.

Don't forget that the modern soldier carrying a full pack of gear carries
something gross like a 100 pounds of gear or something.

>Boosted reflexes might also be an option, but not really required.

Perhaps for "lifers" they might do this. Or for special combat units that
still aren't "Special Forces." Perhaps a unit like the 82nd Airborne might
get a few more toys and cyber than the normal average grunt.

So while the fresh recruit almost certainly won't have even light cyber,
they are very likely to have some nice toys to play with.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 16
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 13:43:50 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-16 05:32:34 EDT, you write:

<<
Now foe u military Dudes out there what Did i forgot? Any suggestions ?
>>

1) At least one member of the squad would have some sort of light anti tank
weapon.

2) I would replace those helmets with security helmets from SSC, with basicly
all the extras listed. IE: Magnification, Low Light, Thermo, Transceiver,
Tracking signal 4 Signal locator, Heds up DD, Resperator & chem seal.

This covers many of the things that you didnt have: NBC coverage, Radios, Ways
to keep the squad together, & improved detection capabilities.

3) at least one member of the squad would have an Underbarrel GL on their
rifle, preferably with the rangefinder linkage.

4) consider equiping one of the squad memebers with a grapple gun. All
members would have rappeling gear.

5) the person with the SSW would be isssued a gyro-Mount system.

6) If I was in charge of equiping them, I would issue them all Iight security
armor from SSC. (in camo, of course). This gives the best trade off between
weight and survivability on the battlefield.

7) Only Vehicle crews, NCO's and Officers are issued sidearms. Not to say the
PC's couldnt have them, but they'd have to buy them and their ammo on their
own.

8) everyone should be issued an "entrenching tool" (read portable shovel)

9) They would each be carrying up to 3 days in field ration, and extra ammo.
(Standard ammo load is 7 extra clips for the rifles and 3 for pistols, plus a
few loose rounds.)
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:14:46 +0200
According to Spike, at 12:15 on 16 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> | Knives. Give them knives. And probably lots of other stuff...
> |has ANYONE here been in the military?
>
> Still am. Territorial Army. Royal Corps of Signals.

Which means you won't be carrying half the kit combat troops will use in
combat situations. (I've read about Paras in the Falklands carrying almost
20 kilos of _combat_ equipment on their webbing, all of which they claimed
was necessary to fight.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:14:47 +0200
According to Spike, at 14:12 on 16 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> |_ a half tent;
>
> A half tent?
> Sod that. Just give them a poncho and some bungee cord.

The US military gives out a bit more stuff than many others. Also, half-
tents or quarter-tents have doubled as ponchos since before WWII, by using
a button-down flap in the middle as something to stick your head through.

> |_ a shovel-pick combination (has a name but i don't remember it);

Entrenching tool, or E-tool for short.

> Commonly known as webbing, a burgen and pockets.

That's spelled "bergen" :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:14:46 +0200
According to Marcel Emami, at 12:38 on 16 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> > >Now for u military Dudes out there what Did i forgot? Any suggestions ?
> >
> > Objective Infantry Combat Weapon Block 4. ;-)
>
> Excuse me ?

It's the American military's latest quest for a new infantry rifle (at
least the third one, if not more than that, in the past 20 years).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:14:47 +0200
According to Marcel Emami, at 11:32 on 16 Sep 98, the word on the street
was...

> Colt manhunter and M-23 or
> Colt Cobra and Colt Manhunter or
> Colt M22-a and Colt Manhunter

I'd go for the M22 for one or two members of the squad, the M23 for the
others (at least, those not carrying a machine gun). The sergeant and any
machine gunners would have a pistol as well.

> Helmet (1/1)
> Flak vest (2/1)

Vest with plates, I'd say, or a light security armor.

> 6 grenades

Four to six grenades sounds okay. Characters with the M22 should carry
much more than that in the form of mini-grenades (about 20 to 30 of them).

> 3 clips per weapon

Five or so at least (four or six in pouches, one in the weapon). In
wartime soldiers (or marines -- don't call them "soldiers" :) will
probably carry much more than this.

Ammo will most likely be explosive rounds, as SR says this is standard in
some units; I'd expect Marines to be among those.

> One Colt General Purpuse (I love that since SSC) MMG for the squad

You mean the GPHMG? Not likely. A medium machine gun at most, for fire
support, although two LMGs is more likely judgin my today's standards.
Then again, it's also likely those will be ditched in favor of a MMG in
any wartime situation (like British soldiers did with their L86 LSWs
during the Gulf War).

Also give them a bayonet for those equipped with rifles, or a normal knife
for those with other weapons. Furthermore, arm one person with a portable
anti-tank weapon, such as the Great Dragon ATGM, and distribute LAWs as
appropriate in situations where they may encounter enemy AFVs or
strongpoints (bunkers etc.).

Additionally give everyone gear like fatigues -- sorry, that should be
_utilities_, since we're talking about (U)CAS Marines here --, a sleeping
bag, backpack, web gear (ammo pouches, canteens, first aid pouch + kit,
bayonet scabbard, entrenching tool carrier, and more, all attached to a
vest or belt + suspenders), shelter half, mess kit, a respirator, and so
on.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: Brian and Shannon Seagroves <bcsnskm@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:13:00 -0000
If you are all interested I am working on a article on Military Special
operations and equipment over on the NERPS list..when I get it done I would
be willing to post it here if there is any interest. While it mainly covers
Special Operations there is a few things about the regular military in
there.
Brian Seagroves
Message no. 22
From: Adam Hargrave <Technofiend@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:06:55 -0400
At 07:05 AM 9/16/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Rab wrote:

>> >

>> > Next suggestion. You have them WAY under-armored. Take a look at the

>>

>> Could be, but are soldiers nowdays armored ? I Do not know maybe I pack

>> them Armorjackets

>

> Soldiers today aren't particularly armored, but that doesn't mean

>they won't be tomorrow. For a long time, personal armor just wasn't

>practical for an infantry soldier on the modern battlefield, but as the

>tech advances, it's getting more and more attractive.

> Some other things they need: comm gear. Someone in the group should

>be a communications specialist, probably, and they all ought to have

>radios for (encrypted) communication within their unit. Contact with their

>chain of command might be limited to whoever's in charge, to avoid

>chatter. Consider using the BattleTac system, if they're in the right

>sort of situation :)

> Knives. Give them knives. And probably lots of other stuff...

>has ANYONE here been in the military?

>

> --Sean

>


I have. US Infantry. If you want, email me direct.



Smith & Wesson...The <italic>Ultimate</italic> point and click user
interface.

Toymiester@***********.com
Message no. 23
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:32:41 +0100
And verily, did Gurth hastily scribble thusly...
|
|According to Spike, at 12:15 on 16 Sep 98, the word on the street was...
|
|> | Knives. Give them knives. And probably lots of other stuff...
|> |has ANYONE here been in the military?
|>
|> Still am. Territorial Army. Royal Corps of Signals.
|
|Which means you won't be carrying half the kit combat troops will use in
|combat situations.

True, and highly relieved about it...
:)

We sit in the back of radio relays and keep the comm lines open...

(I've read about Paras in the Falklands carrying almost
|20 kilos of _combat_ equipment on their webbing, all of which they claimed
|was necessary to fight.)

'Scuse me while I take a lie down....
How much is a Kilo again?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 24
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:34:02 +0100
And verily, did Gurth hastily scribble thusly...
|> Commonly known as webbing, a burgen and pockets.
|
|That's spelled "bergen" :)

Whatever. I've always heard it pronounced Burgen.
:)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 25
From: David Cordy <DCordy@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:38:41 -0700
> 'Scuse me while I take a lie down....
> How much is a Kilo again?
>
2.2 pounds, if I remember correctly.
Message no. 26
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:05:22 -0500
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Date: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 4:32 PM

>(I've read about Paras in the Falklands carrying almost
>|20 kilos of _combat_ equipment on their webbing, all of which they claimed
>|was necessary to fight.)
>
>'Scuse me while I take a lie down....
>How much is a Kilo again?

Approximately 2.2 pounds, if I remember my math right (seldom guaranteed).

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 27
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 18:15:34 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-16 17:34:31 EDT, you write:

<<
'Scuse me while I take a lie down....
How much is a Kilo again?

>>

According to my conversion program 1 kilo is 2.2 lbs.
Message no. 28
From: Marcel Emami <rab@***.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE>
Subject: Marines ][
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:16:24 +0200
Thanx for all that postings I will make a list and post it to the net aggain.
My players will be happy (*grin*) that they have to carry so much.

Aswering a lot of mails:
* shure knifes I only forgot those
* no second firearms for normal troops ? I thought that ist standard, ok lets
strip them
* My players didnot get the joke with the general purpose MMG Im still trying


Some new questions aroused
1)
*Kife and bayonett or just one ?
2)
I have to pay them a salary (uuh) what do u think is a good one?
private 300
pfc 500
corp 800
sergant 1000
first sergant 1500
first lieutenand 2000
+ combat money

that are in nuyen and housing and clothing and food is encluded. After we solved
the problem with the dollar nuyen problem :) can u tell me is that seriuos ?

3) mages should be Officiers right ? just as pilots (from aircrafts) are officers
too ?

4) how is the Ooo-raaah pronounciated ?

5) do they have to carry this equip the hole time they are fighting ? O do they
pack somewhere fight regroup pick up stuff go somewhere else, drop stuff fight ,
... ?

6) Does anybody of u know any punishments (officialies no "code red", or 200
frontleanings) for any misbehavior

7) what misbehavior can some one do ?
Message no. 29
From: "Christopher M. Coulter" <kamikaze@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:48:08 +0000
> Some new questions aroused

aroused? Gee, I guess some guys like girls while others like
weapons. :)
> 1)
> *Kife and bayonett or just one ?
If I recall, some knives could double as bayonettes. Still give them
a rambo-type survival knife.

> 2)
> I have to pay them a salary (uuh) what do u think is a good one?
> private 300
> pfc 500
> corp 800
> sergant 1000
> first sergant 1500
> first lieutenand 2000
> + combat money
>
> that are in nuyen and housing and clothing and food is encluded. After we solved
> the problem with the dollar nuyen problem :) can u tell me is that seriuos ?

good deal on the funds and stuff.

> 3) mages should be Officiers right ? just as pilots (from aircrafts) are officers
> too ?
I think they mentioned Military rank for magicians in the Robert N.
Charette(?) novel Just Compensation.

> 4) how is the Ooo-raaah pronounciated ?

no clue. ...

> 5) do they have to carry this equip the hole time they are fighting ? O do they
> pack somewhere fight regroup pick up stuff go somewhere else, drop stuff fight ,
> ... ?

depends on if they are a recon unit or the actual combat unit. most
of the time though, the gear should all be carried. It just needs to
be distributed properly. Remember to include the radio ops own
equipment.

> 6) Does anybody of u know any punishments (officialies no "code red", or
200
> frontleanings) for any misbehavior

insubordination, fraternizing with an officer, misuse of funds,
conduct unbecoming etc.

> 7) what misbehavior can some one do ?
anything and everything
Message no. 30
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:01:45 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-16 18:37:13 EDT, you write:

<<
Some new questions aroused
1) *Kife and bayonett or just one ?

Depends on the player. Issue them a bayonett, and if they want another
knife let them spend nuyen on it.

2) I have to pay them a salary (uuh) what do u think is a good one?
private 300
pfc 500
corp 800
sergant 1000
first sergant 1500
first lieutenand 2000
+ combat money

that are in nuyen and housing and clothing and food is encluded. After we
solved
the problem with the dollar nuyen problem :) can u tell me is that seriuos ?

If you want to keep them around (and remember, we are talking about a
volenteer army still) you need to pay them. When I was back in the service
(and this was back in '84) I made $800 a month AFTER taxes, as an e-3
(equivalent of PFC). check around the DoD site, you might find the pay tables
there and use the $1 to 1Y conversion factor.

3) mages should be Officiers right ? just as pilots (from aircrafts) are
officers
too ?

Only if mages are uncommon

4) how is the Ooo-raaah pronounciated ?

Whoo- Rah!

5) do they have to carry this equip the hole time they are fighting ? O do
they
pack somewhere fight regroup pick up stuff go somewhere else, drop stuff
fight , ... ?

It depends on the time and place. For example, on a extended patrol they
probobly would have everything along, and may well drop most of it (in their
rucksack) when the shooting starts. Say if they were on duty at like a
firebase, they would only have the weapons and ammo they would normaly carry
into combat.

6) Does anybody of u know any punishments (officialies no "code red", or 200
frontleanings) for any misbehavior

This depends on a lot of factors. In general, minor offenses will be
handled by what is called "adminstrative punishment", which is any punishment
not handed down by a court-martial, and often takes the form of loss of
privilages and or extra duty. For example, one time I cheezed off my cheif,
and I lost my off ship privalages for a week as well as having to do an extra
two hours of work during that period. For major cases, or if the superiors
are po'd at someone, there are CO's Mast, summary courts, or worse.
Misbehavior mostly comes down to doing things that are detremental to the good
of the corps, such as getting drunk, using that humvee to take your kids to
school, getting caught goofing off when your supposed to be working, and stuff
like that. Again, if you hunt around the DoD site, you will probobly be able
to come up with a copy of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which gives
specific offenses that service members are often charged with, and the
appropriate punishment.

7) what misbehavior can some one do ?
Just about anything they want to....

>>
Message no. 31
From: One Ronin <ronin@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:25:20 PDT
Okay....let me see if I can answer some of these...

<SNIP>

>*Kife and bayonett or just one ?
Us Army grunts use a little toy called an M-9 bayonet. It's basically a
survival knife with a fixture to attach to an M-16.

>2)
>I have to pay them a salary (uuh) what do u think is a good one?
>private 300
>pfc 500
>corp 800
>sergant 1000
>first sergant 1500
>first lieutenand 2000
>+ combat money
>that are in nuyen and housing and clothing and food is encluded. After
we solved
>the problem with the dollar nuyen problem :) can u tell me is that
seriuos ?
That's okay with me. Presently, an enlisted soldier of E-1 or E-2 rank
makes about $750 or so bucks per month....give or take. Whatever is
most appropriate to your campaign is what you should use.

>3) mages should be Officiers right ? just as pilots (from aircrafts)
>are officers
>too ?

As far as I'm concerned, just being a mage shouldn't automatically
qualify as officer material. There should be enlisted mages as well as
officer mages. Just cause you can sling mojo doesn't mean you can lead.
And, a mage isn't placed in charge of a multi-million nuyen piece of
equipment like a pilot is.

>4) how is the Ooo-raaah pronounciated ?
Hua. Or, for the phonetically challenged, "hoo-AHH!" At least, that's
how we said it.

>5) do they have to carry this equip the hole time they are fighting ? O
do they
>pack somewhere fight regroup pick up stuff go somewhere else, drop
stuff fight ,
>... ?
Well, when on a mission we would sometimes leave our rucks with a guard
at the ORP (Objective Rally Point), but it all depends. If you are in a
running firefight, you want to make sure you had your rucks and all of
your gear. When doing MOUT (Military Operations in Urban Terrain), we
would often leave our rucks in our tracks (M-2 Bradleys), or at the
Company Assembly Area, depending on the situation.

>6) Does anybody of u know any punishments (officialies no "code red",
or 200
>frontleanings) for any misbehavior

Typical administrative action is an Article 15, which consists of a
formal disciplinary smear on your record with a loss of pay. Usually
accompanied by an "unofficial discipline readjustment" (read: ass
whooping), by your squad leader. Hope that helps.

>7) what misbehavior can some one do ?
Anything that would get you fired or in trouble in real life. use your
imagination.

Disclaimer: All of the above comes from my experiences with the US Army
(Mechanized Infantry). I won't claim to be familiar with
Jar-Head.....er....um....Marine ideology.

Q: What does MARINE stand for?
A: Muscles Are Required, Intelligence Not Essential.

Enjoy.

EST SULARUS OTH MITHS


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 32
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:28:44 -0400
At 12:16 AM 9/17/98 +0200, you wrote:

>*Kife and bayonett or just one ?

Just one. Make it a knife.

>I have to pay them a salary (uuh) what do u think is a good one?
>private 300
>pfc 500
>corp 800
>sergant 1000
>first sergant 1500
>first lieutenand 2000
>+ combat money

Huh. Don't know, perhaps over on the official US military sites you might
get current information; perhaps within the recruiting section?

>3) mages should be Officiers right ? just as pilots (from aircrafts) are
>officers too ?

Yes. Magicians are too rare a commodity; it'll make the other grunts angry
that this magician is an officer *just* because they can cast spells, but
that's the way it goes. The magician might find themselves without many
friends other than fellow magicians.

>4) how is the Ooo-raaah pronounciated ?

Say it as you spelled it. Close enough for government work I should think.

>5) do they have to carry this equip the hole time they are fighting ? O do
they
>pack somewhere fight regroup pick up stuff go somewhere else, drop stuff
fight

If they are common grunts, they carry it. Well, except when they have made
a camp for the night, the patrols won't be carrying everything. But still
a lot of stuff.

>6) Does anybody of u know any punishments (officialies no "code red", or 200
>frontleanings) for any misbehavior

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. Punishments for breaking rules
and regulations? Well, the military does have it's own justice system, so
prison time or even execution (I think) is possible for major infractions.
For lesser breaks of the rules, a soldier might be demoted (have ranks
taken away), be made to do all sorts of unhappy chores (like clean the
entire bathroom for a hall with a single toothbrush or something), or
simply have privileges like "time off" revoked.

>7) what misbehavior can some one do ?

What sort of rules can be broken? Well, if it's against the law for a
civilian, odds are pretty good it's against the military law code also. In
some way shape or form anyway. Big one though is insubordination or
failure to obey the just and lawful commands of a superior officer
(remember, a soldier has a duty to refuse orders that violate law; "I was
just obeying orders" has no real validation anymore. I'm oversimplifying a
bit, but I hope you get the idea.).

Remember that in the military, there is the "Chain of Command" that cannot
be broken. Cripes, we had a chain of command when I was a lifeguard. And
nothing pissed us off more than having someone break the chain of command.
So while there may be no actual legal punishment for breaking the chain of
command, there will certainly be political reprecussions; the person who
did it may suddenly find themselves getting all the crappy assignments and
may not be included in all the good or cool stuff.

So if done right, a military campaign would not only have lots of Big Guns
and combat, it would also have lots of political shenanigans and
behind-the-scenes action right on base.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 33
From: Adam Hargrave <Technofiend@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:17:54 -0400
>5) do they have to carry this equip the hole time they are fighting ? O do
they
>pack somewhere fight regroup pick up stuff go somewhere else, drop stuff
fight ,
>... ?
>
>6) Does anybody of u know any punishments (officialies no "code red", or 200
>frontleanings) for any misbehavior
>
>7) what misbehavior can some one do ?


1) As long as they are in field, they carry the equipment with them.

2)Usually starts with an "article 15", a document that goes in your
permanent file listing the charges. After so many they strip
rank/privileges. Other than that, time in brig, kp duty, extra fire/sentry
watch.
Message no. 34
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:39:52 EDT
I refered to some DoD sites, and I just found some:

http://JAGLINK.jag.af.mil/ucmj.htm

this is for the Uniform code of Military Justice.

http://www.dfas.mil/money/milpay/98pay/index.htm

This has the current pay chart on it, and a downloadable copy in .pdf format.
Message no. 35
From: Lance Dillon <riffraff@********.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:39:11 -0400
Marcel Emami wrote:
>
> Some new questions aroused
> 1)
> *Kife and bayonett or just one ?
> 2)
> I have to pay them a salary (uuh) what do u think is a good one?
> private 300
> pfc 500
> corp 800
> sergant 1000
> first sergant 1500
> first lieutenand 2000
> + combat money
>
> that are in nuyen and housing and clothing and food is encluded. After we solved
> the problem with the dollar nuyen problem :) can u tell me is that seriuos ?
>

as an e1 in the us air force, i got like 800 a month, after taxes...with
food, military clothing allowance, housing being extra...

so, if 300 nuyen is 800 dollars, sure...if not, then perhaps more or
less...

when i got out as an e4, i was getting 1800 a month after taxes and all
the rest...



--
Lance Dillon
Network Administrator
Nielsen Media Research
--
"Gravity is a harsh mistress."
-- The Tick
Message no. 36
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:46:16 -0700
>As far as I'm concerned, just being a mage shouldn't automatically
>qualify as officer material. There should be enlisted mages as well as
>officer mages. Just cause you can sling mojo doesn't mean you can lead.
>And, a mage isn't placed in charge of a multi-million nuyen piece of
>equipment like a pilot is.

I'm pretty sure they would be officers. Doctors, Dentists, and Lawyers in
the military are officers, and they aren't put in charge of expensive
equipment either. It's more the cost of the schooling. Plus, theoretically
anyone could be a Doctor, Dentist or Lawyer but only 0.1% of the populace
is magically active.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 37
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 18:58:36 -0500
---------
> From: Marcel Emami <rab@***.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE>
>
> Some new questions aroused
> 1)
> *Kife and bayonett or just one ?

Just one, IMO, but opinions are like assholes... everyone has one, and you
really don't want it shoved in your face.

> 3) mages should be Officiers right ? just as pilots (from aircrafts) are
officers
> too ?

Mages would definitely be Officers. I doubt you'll see many shamans, and
if you do, they're likely to be dog shamans. I'm not sure if the Army's
flyboys (the helicopter people) are all officers, but I know they are in
the Navy and Air Force.

> 7) what misbehavior can some one do ?

Depends. They're misbehavior (screwing around, pissing people off), then
there's things that will get you court-martialed (disobeying orders, for
example)

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide,
No escape from reality.
Open your eyes, Look up to the skies and see,
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy,
Because I'm easy come, easy go, Little high, little low,
Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me
-Queen "Bohemian Rhapsody"
*
Heston: 'We Must Arm Ourselves If We Are To Defeat The Apes'
Message no. 38
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:06:42 -0400
Okay, I will willingly and with grace bow to the superior knowledge of
those that have actually served in the armed forces, except on this
specific point.

At 04:25 PM 9/16/98 PDT, you wrote:

>>3) mages should be Officiers right ? just as pilots (from aircrafts)
>>are officers
>>too ?
>
>As far as I'm concerned, just being a mage shouldn't automatically
>qualify as officer material. There should be enlisted mages as well as
>officer mages. Just cause you can sling mojo doesn't mean you can lead.
>And, a mage isn't placed in charge of a multi-million nuyen piece of
>equipment like a pilot is.

Sorry, but a multimillion nuyen piece of equipment is easier to replace
than a mage, especially a capable combat mage.

Magicians are supposed to be rare, right? And most magicians are going to
go for the glamour and the nuyen of the corporate world, excepting those
that live in the shadows of course.

Want to tell me how *anyone*, least of all the military, is going to keep,
let alone attract, capable magicians if they *don't* give them some sort of
special treatment?

Let's see, I can either join the UCAS Army, get paid a few hundred a month
and get sh*tted on by nearly everyone else. Or I can hook up with Ares and
get paid six figures, have a nice cushy office right off the bat and not
have to obey all the rules and regs (like dress code). Which should I choose?

Patriotism doesn't pay the bills, not to mention it's not going to attract
a large number of magical recruits. A few of them, maybe. But that's
very, very few of them.

No, magicians are too rare to treat like dirt, like you might a common
mundane. They are far too valuable a resource, too valuable a commodity.
Gotta give them an automatic officer ranking and give them primo choices
for assignment whenever possible. Even gotta let them get away with minor
rules and reg violations. "Okay, so Major Mark the Magician didn't crease
his dress pants, oh well, can't go around pissing off the mojo-slingers."

All of which does mean that the regular rank and file, especially the
enlisted, will really hate or at least dislike the magicians. "WTF? I
have to spit polish my boots but he doesn't, all because he can sling the
mojo? F*ck that!"

Oh yeah. Right now, a college degree essentially guarantees a recruit they
will be sent to Officer Candidate School, meaning they are almost
guaranteed to come out of training an officer (assuming they don't wash
out). Does having a college degree mean they can lead? Certainly not.

Magicians probably go to at least three training schools. Boot camp, since
everyone does. OCS, so they can justify giving them officer's bars. And
an appropriate magic school, almost certainly combat, though certain
aspected magicians might be trained as military healers or spies.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 39
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:10:57 -0500
----------
> From: One Ronin <ronin@*******.COM>
> >3) mages should be Officiers right ? just as pilots (from aircrafts)
> >are officers
> >too ?
>
> As far as I'm concerned, just being a mage shouldn't automatically
> qualify as officer material. There should be enlisted mages as well as
> officer mages. Just cause you can sling mojo doesn't mean you can lead.
> And, a mage isn't placed in charge of a multi-million nuyen piece of
> equipment like a pilot is.

I'm going to disagree here. A mage is a multi-million nuyen piece of
equipment. More than likely, going into the Armed Forces means you get
tested for magic (if you don't already know you're a mage). If you pass,
they send you to college to get a degree in Thaumaturgy and Military
Science. You get out, and do your tour (at least). The last thing you
want on the battlefield is going to be a half-trained mage who gets his
spirits crossed.

As for not being good leaders, I think in a lot of cases you'll be wrong.
Conjuring requires Charisma as well as skill. Sorcery requires Willpower.
Magical Background skills (those that will help your comrades survive)
all require intelligence. Most mages are likely to have these qualities,
many of which are required for leadership (no one wants to be lead by a
moron, coolness under fire is willpower, and someone with a high charisma
makes you want to follow orders). Mages will be officers. Physads, OTOH,
will be placed where ever they're needed, but I would bet that they start
as E-2's or E-3's, simply because they have some advantages normal
soldiers don't.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide,
No escape from reality.
Open your eyes, Look up to the skies and see,
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy,
Because I'm easy come, easy go, Little high, little low,
Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me
-Queen "Bohemian Rhapsody"
*
Heston: 'We Must Arm Ourselves If We Are To Defeat The Apes'
Message no. 40
From: Aegis Wildstorm <aegis@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:12:56 -0500
.1)
.*Kife and bayonett or just one ?

No matter what military in the world you're looking at, the assault rifle
has a bayonet double as a knife.

.2)
.I have to pay them a salary (uuh) what do u think is a good one?
.private 300
.pfc 500
.corp 800
.sergant 1000
.first sergant 1500
.first lieutenand 2000
.+ combat money

.that are in nuyen and housing and clothing and food is encluded. After we
solved
.the problem with the dollar nuyen problem :) can u tell me is that seriuos
?

In the "real military", pay depends on pay grade (E1-E9,O1-O10) and time in
service. A rough scale would be start with E1 just in at $900, add $100 for
each paygrade and $50 per year in service. That's not exactly what it
actually is, but it's simple for conversion to the game. To give you a RL
example, I'm an E4 making $1280/mth. In March, I'll hit my 4th anniversary,
and get a $80 raise. Next August, I'll sew on E5 and get another $100
raise. That's in addition to the $40 dollar raise I'll see in January due
to inflation. Also...Since I live off base, the DoD pays me $375 for
housing and $225 for food every month.

.3) mages should be Officiers right ? just as pilots (from aircrafts) are
officers
.too ?

They might be Warrant Officers, but I wouldn't make them Commissioned
Officers just because they know magic. Warrant Officers are in between your
senior enlistees and you lieutenants. The Army uses WOs as Heli Pilots.
The best way I heard them described in terms of rank is "they have the
authority to get the job done without having to deal with the administrative
BS of officers"


.4) how is the Ooo-raaah pronounciated ?

Just as you spelled it.

.5) do they have to carry this equip the hole time they are fighting ? O do
they
.pack somewhere fight regroup pick up stuff go somewhere else, drop stuff
fight ,
.... ?

If they have a camp set up, they'll leave a lot of stuff there, with guards
of course, but they'll take combat equipment (extra ammo, night goggles,
flares, flashlights, tactical radio, tac computer,etc...) with them.
Different soldiers will carry different equipment depending on his/her job.
You're not going to see that infantry grunt packing the extremely high
powered explosives that only the demolitions expert knows how to use, and
your demo guy isn't going to be carrying the tac radio.

.6) Does anybody of u know any punishments (officialies no "code red", or
200
.frontleanings) for any misbehavior

Paperwork starts with the Letter of Counseling (read: Slap on the wrist),
then moves up to letters of admonishment and reprimand, After that is the
"Company Grade" Art. 15 (which only stays with your current assignment, then
it's the "Field Grade" Art. 15 (which follows you for life). An Art. 15
could be anything from extra duty to reduction in pay and/or rank, or even
"Correctional Custody" (Read: Basic Retraining). For more serious offenses
there are the Courts-Martial, which can lead from Hard Labor to Dishonorable
Discharge.

.7) what misbehavior can some one do ?

Smart off to your supe and you get a Letter of Counseling, kill him and
you'll be making big rocks into little rocks. Anything considered dishonest
or underhanded will get you in trouble. Writing bad checks has gotten
people kicked out before, and adultery (which is either person is married,
not necessarily you) is a felony.

Hope that helps.

Mike Brewer
Message no. 41
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:32:33 +0200
<snipped it all>

Seems to be that many a "Listee" is quite an expert in the military,
doesn't it?
Makes some psychologist may wonder about the game beeing, say overly
military in style?
;o)

--->Steadfast...
As a pointer, don't forget to buy ammo
and clips for your guns.
(SR 3rd., page 60, 2nd column, middle)
...sig adjustet
Message no. 42
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:58:55 -0400
>Sorry, but a multimillion nuyen piece of equipment is easier to replace
>than a mage, especially a capable combat mage.
>
>Magicians are supposed to be rare, right? And most magicians are going to
>go for the glamour and the nuyen of the corporate world, excepting those
>that live in the shadows of course.
>
>Want to tell me how *anyone*, least of all the military, is going to keep,
>let alone attract, capable magicians if they *don't* give them some sort of
>special treatment?
>
>Let's see, I can either join the UCAS Army, get paid a few hundred a month
>and get sh*tted on by nearly everyone else. Or I can hook up with Ares and
>get paid six figures, have a nice cushy office right off the bat and not
>have to obey all the rules and regs (like dress code). Which should I
>choose?
>
>Patriotism doesn't pay the bills, not to mention it's not going to attract
>a large number of magical recruits. A few of them, maybe. But that's
>very, very few of them.
>
>No, magicians are too rare to treat like dirt, like you might a common
>mundane. They are far too valuable a resource, too valuable a commodity.
>Gotta give them an automatic officer ranking and give them primo choices
>for assignment whenever possible. Even gotta let them get away with minor
>rules and reg violations. "Okay, so Major Mark the Magician didn't crease
>his dress pants, oh well, can't go around pissing off the mojo-slingers."
>
>All of which does mean that the regular rank and file, especially the
>enlisted, will really hate or at least dislike the magicians. "WTF? I
>have to spit polish my boots but he doesn't, all because he can sling the
>mojo? F*ck that!"
>
>Oh yeah. Right now, a college degree essentially guarantees a recruit they
>will be sent to Officer Candidate School, meaning they are almost
>guaranteed to come out of training an officer (assuming they don't wash
>out). Does having a college degree mean they can lead? Certainly not.
>
>Magicians probably go to at least three training schools. Boot camp, since
>everyone does. OCS, so they can justify giving them officer's bars. And
>an appropriate magic school, almost certainly combat, though certain
>aspected magicians might be trained as military healers or spies.


Another way of handling this is the way the Army (US) handles helocopter
pilots, Make them all Warrant officers. I never have been sure how
Warrant officer Ranks fit into the chain of command but basically it
makes all WO's outrank all Enlisted people without putting them in a
position of leadership over them and are outranked by all officers. The
only problem is I believe the US Army is phasing these ranks out, but hey
in 60 years they could be back. This also gives you a way to pay mages
much more than officers even as they would have different ranks and
therefore different payscales without making mages outrank leutennants.

Steve
Message no. 43
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:11:21 -0500
On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:05:22 -0500 Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET> writes:
>From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
<SNIP>
>>'Scuse me while I take a lie down....
>>How much is a Kilo again?

>Approximately 2.2 pounds, if I remember my math right (seldom
>guaranteed).
<SNIP Sig>

Spike's in the UK, which, if I recall correctly, means that he's using
the metric, not english, system. (He was asking, I think, as a form of
gloating.)

You know, Spike, sticking us Americans with the English system then
dumping it combined with your sisters pop group makes me think you've got
something against the US ... ;)
*Ducks and runs for cover*

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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Message no. 44
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:52:24 -0400
On 16 Sep 98, at 20:06, Erik Jameson wrote:

> No, magicians are too rare to treat like dirt, like you might a common
> mundane. They are far too valuable a resource, too valuable a commodity.
> Gotta give them an automatic officer ranking and give them primo choices
> for assignment whenever possible. Even gotta let them get away with minor
> rules and reg violations. "Okay, so Major Mark the Magician didn't crease
> his dress pants, oh well, can't go around pissing off the mojo-slingers."
>
> All of which does mean that the regular rank and file, especially the
> enlisted, will really hate or at least dislike the magicians. "WTF? I
> have to spit polish my boots but he doesn't, all because he can sling the
> mojo? F*ck that!"

Well said, Erik. The novel "Just Compensation" by Robert Charrette
has some a good perspective on the military in the world of
Shadowrun, including the attitudes about mages being officers, and
the lax rules they are allowed to enjoy.

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 45
From: Aegis Wildstorm <aegis@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:55:43 -0500
.Magicians are supposed to be rare, right? And most magicians are going to
.go for the glamour and the nuyen of the corporate world, excepting those
.that live in the shadows of course.

.Want to tell me how *anyone*, least of all the military, is going to keep,
.let alone attract, capable magicians if they *don't* give them some sort of
.special treatment?

.Let's see, I can either join the UCAS Army, get paid a few hundred a month
.and get sh*tted on by nearly everyone else. Or I can hook up with Ares and
.get paid six figures, have a nice cushy office right off the bat and not
.have to obey all the rules and regs (like dress code). Which should I
choose?

.Patriotism doesn't pay the bills, not to mention it's not going to attract
.a large number of magical recruits. A few of them, maybe. But that's


The Airforce is having this problem with pilots right now. What they're
doing is setting up bonus pay for pilots based on how long you've been in.
For example you might see an extra 20g/yr during your first 10 yrs, then see
an increase to 35g/yr after that. I don't remember exactly what the bonuses
are, but I do know they're hefty. And as far as comparing salaries, you
can't compare raw nuyen, or there's no reason to join the military. For
example, my piddly little E4 base pay is only about 16g/yr, but, due to
benefits I would have to pay for on the outside, not to mention allowances
for housing and food, when filling out a form asking for annual income, I
report 28g/yr. That's how much my benefits are worth.

Mike Brewer
Message no. 46
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:59:01 EDT
In a message dated 9/16/1998 7:14:10 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
nexx@********.NET writes:

> As for not being good leaders, I think in a lot of cases you'll be wrong.
> Conjuring requires Charisma as well as skill. Sorcery requires Willpower.
> Magical Background skills (those that will help your comrades survive)
> all require intelligence. Most mages are likely to have these qualities,
> many of which are required for leadership (no one wants to be lead by a
> moron, coolness under fire is willpower, and someone with a high charisma
> makes you want to follow orders). Mages will be officers. Physads, OTOH,
> will be placed where ever they're needed, but I would bet that they start
> as E-2's or E-3's, simply because they have some advantages normal
> soldiers don't.

Nexx, put this day down on the calendar would you please?

I agree with Erik here. I don't care what the attributes of the individual in
question are. It's more than just attributes. It's focus. It's
comprehension. It's common sense, as well as knowing when and how often to
skip it. It's attitude, and tons of it. And it's the ability to shut out the
stuff that makes most people go nuts. Including the stock recruits.

Okay folks, time for a bit of gaming.

First off, let me point out that my military experience is completely second
or third hand. I have a brother who has sat and ate dinner with turkish
colonels and eaten their entire dinner without knowing the etiquette or
resource disposition. But that's it.

In the games here, we've played out the variation on the Aztlan/CAS war for
ages now. It is simply one of the most potentially "Epic" action sequences
that FASA has put into the works in our collective opinions.

As per the suggestions, a magician or magically capable person is often
shuffled off into officer ranks and/or affiliated/parallel training. We
followed this concept. Character in question goes and decides to join (a bout
of nationalism on the part of the guy). They immediately make him an officer,
as not only was he a magician, but he was a self-initiated one to boot (no
pun).

While in various stages of "boot camp" briefing and training, it becomes
apparent to him that "non coms" treat him below dirt. Below what even the
other officers get treated like or are viewed as. Then comes the *big* day.

Action on the Field of the Battle. CAS spotters have determined massive
levels of environmental magic is being used on the part of the Aztlan assault
front. Magician goes into things with his comrades. Not only does he see the
fire fighting, missiles, smoke screens, and everything else you could go see
"Saving Private Ryan" to enjoy, but he sees something *NONE* of the Mundanes
can see.

Two Wars.

That's right, Two. The magicians on both sides are doing their damndest to
upset the opposing forces in any way they can. He sees a guy get shot near
him, and the 'deathflash' as the guy dies. Ghosts wandering aimlessly. Hell,
there was even one Aztlan magician who got caught on the wrong side of the
magic. Aztlaner mage manages to get into the CAS ranks and goes to town with
his macatli, but as he does so, a Voudon on the side of the CAS looses his
patience (never try this one at home boys and girls). As the Aztlaner begins
the "sacrifice draw", the Voudon directly engages the astral conduit that the
Aztlaner has opened up. The spirit of the soldier literally erupts in a
bloodbath fight as the Aztlaner suddenly finds himself not only gaining much
less than he had hoped for, he is also being directly engaged by this nut who
is REALLY resistant to his macatli blade (the Voudon was Ogoun of course, and
the head of the magicians field unit command).

Sure, I can see lots of sides to this argument. Being a magician means that
the character(s) in question are going to be confronted with stuff that the
mundanes are only seeing a single (albeit intense) side to. This means more
training, or at least should. This also means a higher "threat pay" in my
book at least as well. But imagine the people with "Post Traumatic Stress
Syndrome" from a given conflict/warzone. Now imagine the ones that get to
directly see the "Background Rating 3" build up to what it is, if not a point
or three higher.

Sorry, this is one where I say it is MUCH more than attributes. It's about
what is inside the character/personality in question. Attributes alone do NOT
reflect this, nor will they ever to me.

Sorry folks, don't know what triggered this one...

-K
Message no. 47
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:44:11 +0100
And verily, did Erik Jameson hastily scribble thusly...
|>4) how is the Ooo-raaah pronounciated ?
|
|Say it as you spelled it. Close enough for government work I should think.

All I can ask is... WTF is Ooo-raaah????

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 48
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:01:51 +0100
|.3) mages should be Officiers right ? just as pilots (from aircrafts) are
|officers
|.too ?
|
|They might be Warrant Officers, but I wouldn't make them Commissioned
|Officers just because they know magic. Warrant Officers are in between your
|senior enlistees and you lieutenants. The Army uses WOs as Heli Pilots.
|The best way I heard them described in terms of rank is "they have the
|authority to get the job done without having to deal with the administrative
|BS of officers"

It doesn't work like that over here...
Over here that ranking structure for NCOs goes.

Private (or equivalent) >> Lanc-Corporal >> Corporal >> Sergent
>> Staff Sargent >> WO2 (Squadron Sergent Major)
>>WO1 (regimental Sergent Major). Warrant Officers over here deal mainly in
admin and training.

Officers start at 2nd Lieutenant >> Lieutenant >> Captain >> Major, etc

And people can join the army and get in as an officer (After about a year of
training as an Officer Cadet at Sandhurst.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 49
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:07:25 +0100
And verily, did D. Ghost hastily scribble thusly...
|Spike's in the UK,

Correct.

which, if I recall correctly, means that he's using
|the metric, not english, system. (He was asking, I think, as a form of
|gloating.)

Incorrect. When I was at school, we still learned imperial.
I loath metric in most cases, and still think in Feet, inches, pounds,
ounces... And of course... Miles.

|You know, Spike, sticking us Americans with the English system then
|dumping it

I never dumped it. Some of us over here are still stuck in our ways and
resistant to change. (Especially when that change has something to do with
*spit* europe).

combined with your sisters pop group makes me think you've got
|something against the US ... ;)


##### # # # # ## #####
# # # # # # # # #
# ###### # # # # # #
# # # # ## # ###### #####
# # # ## ## # # #
# # # # # # # #

Don't EVEN THINK IT!

|*Ducks and runs for cover*

HA! You *KNOW* the only safe places are Gurths stairs and the Elders resort!
Gotcha!

As for the Spice Gurlz... Think of them as revenge for Oprah, and all the
other crap talk shows, and Hanson....

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 50
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:13:25 -0400
At 02:32 AM 9/17/98 +0200, you wrote:
><snipped it all>
>
>Seems to be that many a "Listee" is quite an expert in the military,
>doesn't it?
>Makes some psychologist may wonder about the game beeing, say overly
>military in style?
>;o)
>

Or the fact that E-1s have a lot of spare time on their hands. :)


(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-
Message no. 51
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:22:03 -0700
> And verily, did Erik Jameson hastily scribble thusly...
> |>4) how is the Ooo-raaah pronounciated ?
> |Say it as you spelled it. Close enough for government work I should think.
> All I can ask is... WTF is Ooo-raaah????

The mating call of most US military types..With variations resulting
from service, location, experiance of the caller...
Basically the call is made..and if there are any other military types
around it is answered..Accompanied by the craning of necks to locate
each other...

--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
===============================================
Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 52
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:36:37 +0100
And verily, did GRANITE hastily scribble thusly...
|The mating call of most US military types..With variations resulting
|from service, location, experiance of the caller...
|Basically the call is made..and if there are any other military types
|around it is answered..Accompanied by the craning of necks to locate
|each other...

I knew US millitary grunts were primative, but this is worse than I
expected....

:)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 53
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:28:14 -0400
At 11:44 AM 9/17/98 +0100, you wrote:

>|>4) how is the Ooo-raaah pronounciated ?
>|
>|Say it as you spelled it. Close enough for government work I should think.
>
>All I can ask is... WTF is Ooo-raaah????

Ever see "Scent of a Woman," starring Al Pacino?

To my knowledge, it's a bit like "hurray" or something similar.

Probably an Americanism.

OH!! Another thing to add, if you want to do American/UCAS military right.

The proper exclamation in the military (by custom) isn't anything like
"cool" or "that rocks." It's "Outstanding!" Everything
good is
"Outstanding!"

I think the Brits may use it to, based upon comments regarding Paul J. Adam
over on TK, but I do know it's a part of American military lingo, at least
in the Army, at least in the officer's side of things.

I've actually had a few people thinking I had been in the military because
I tend to use "Outstanding!" a bit too frequently in speech. Nope, but I
was an Army Brat. Then again, I use "y'all" even though I've never been to
South...

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 54
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:10:51 -0700
> And verily, did GRANITE hastily scribble thusly...
> |The mating call of most US military types..With variations resulting
> |from service, location, experiance of the caller...
> I knew US millitary grunts were primative, but this is worse than I
> expected....

You could be unpleasantly surprised... ;)
There are are other calls that have different meaning..There is
another that sounds much like an ahooga horn that is similar but is
more an agressiveness display..Only the adept observer can really
tell the differance..It can all get quite complex.. ;)

Here are some very good points:

> OH!! Another thing to add, if you want to do American/UCAS military
> right.
> The proper exclamation in the military (by custom) isn't anything
> like "cool" or "that rocks." It's "Outstanding!"
Everything good
> is "Outstanding!"

And for a dressing out..."You display a lackadaisical attitude"
It sounds really weird..But usually puts a point on the
conversation..and at the time usually makes one feel about 2 in
tall..It also looks real bad in an evaluation..

Then the phrase "Look into my eye" while pulling the lower lid
down a bit..Like on Aliens..Is also used by more than a few..Meaning
I really don't give a hoot get up off of your duff and get to it..

hmm..what are some other....I can't remember any right now..
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
===============================================
Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 55
From: Iridios <iridios@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:52:05 -0400
GRANITE wrote:

> Then the phrase "Look into my eye" while pulling the lower lid
> down a bit..Like on Aliens..Is also used by more than a few..Meaning
> I really don't give a hoot get up off of your duff and get to it..

Actually, pay attention to *Which* finger he uses to pull down his
eyelid. It's a covert way to flip someone the bird ;)

<snip sig>

--
--"Any science, sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from
magic."
--Arthur C. Clarke

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
ICQ UIN:6629224
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489
http://members.theglobe.com/Iridios

-------Begin Geek Code Block------
GS d-(++) s+: a- C++ U?@>++ P L E?
W++ N o-- K- w(---) O? M-- V? PS+@
PE Y+ !PGP>++ t++@ 5+ X++@ R++@ tv
b+ DI++ !D G e+@>++++ h--- r+++ y+++
-------End Geek Code Block--------
Message no. 56
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:08:26 +0100
And verily, did Iridios hastily scribble thusly...
|<snip sig>

It's had me perplexed for over 6 months now, but, why do so many people
include a <snip sig> tag?

It's totally pointless because it's the convention on this list to snip sigs
anyway, and no-ones INTERESTED. And as Adam said earlier,

"it's a total waste of space, so stop it..."

Or words to that effect...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 57
From: Jhary-a-Conel <Jhary-a-Conel@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:44:31 +0200
On 16 Sep 98, at 12:50, Marcel Emami wrote:
> > First suggestion: Buy Fields of Fire. Read it, learn it,
> > love it :)

> Have reads it and still need some advice such as some flask or other
> no Weapon stuff. In Fof there are guns, big guns and greater guns and
> armor and tanks nothing more (except climbing gear and nightglider)
> But how much of it and other stuff I have seen an pic of a marine
> with a haul of load (Toaster and bread for years:)) and I wnated to
> nknow what they are packing or what Do u would pack them.
Ah well, if you _got_ a picture, just check it. And then issue stuff
like web gear, uniforms, cooking stuff, socks, can openers, a Zippo,
C rations, flashlights, ... to them. You may want to take a look at
the "Missions" adventure book, somewhere in there equipment for a
military special ops team is described.

> > Next suggestion. You have them WAY under-armored.
> Could be, but are soldiers nowdays armored ? I Do not know maybe I pack
> them Armorjackets
Don't know about Marines, but the German Bundeswehr is about as
well armoured as the German police: Not at all. But as prices for
"bullet proof" vests seem to have dropped extremly (probably from
higher demand :-) I guess even the military can afford some kind of
protection for their biological equipment, err, soldiers.


[snip weapons]
> I thougt for people with less strenght but still the lust for autofire
Sorry? Not strong enough to carry and use basic equipment, but
want to be a /Marine/? Can't see that...


Jhary
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | JaC / SP | Exclusiveness is a |
| / /_/ ____/ | Jhary-a-Conel@***.net | characteristic of |
| \___ __/ | ICQ#: 7 517 216 | recent riches, high|
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | society, and the |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | skunk. |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary ------(O'Malley)-+
Message no. 58
From: AlSeyMer <AdSM@******.BE>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:52:44 +0200
Gurth wrote:
> (snip)
> > |_ a shovel-pick combination (has a name but i don't remember it);
>
> Entrenching tool, or E-tool for short.
>
Thanks ;-)


AlSeyMer
Message no. 59
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 02:17:33 +0000
> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:32:28 +0200
> From: Marcel Emami <rab@***.INFORMATIK.UNI-MANNHEIM.DE>
> Subject: Marines


> Hi
> I've started a new campaign in SR and my guys wanted to be soldiers. Big
> Guns and the permission no the ORDER to use it.
> After I've player the half year trainings course the are now privates (FC)
> one corporal and one sarge (he is allways yelling).
> Now i had to give them equipment.
> My ideas are
> each
> Colt manhunter and M-23 or
> Colt Cobra and Colt Manhunter or
> Colt M22-a and Colt Manhunter

A fire team (3 EM and a Junior NCO) should be armed with a Squad Automatic
Weapon (a LMG in SR rules) 1 assault rifle (Colt M-22A2) with a underbarrel
grenade launcher, and 2 assault rifles (again M-22A2s). All of which use the
same caliber ammunition. The mix of grenades for the launchers would include
some HEDP (High Explosive, Dual Purpose---for limited light AT capability).

2 fire teams to a squad ( one team is lead by the Squad leader)

>
> Helmet (1/1)
> Flak vest (2/1)
>
> 6 grenades
About right, some would be smoke.

> 3 clips per weapon

7 clips , 6 in 2 three clip pouches and one in the weapon

>
> One Colt General Purpuse (I love that since SSC) MMG for the squad

A Squad normally does not have a machine gun, and normally the machine gun at
platoon level is a LMG (currently a M-60) with a tripod and T & E.

>
>
> Now foe u military Dudes out there what Did i forgot? Any suggestions ?

Load Bearing Equipment (AKA LBE, combat webbing) with
Canteen
Entrenching tool
First Aid Pouch
2 magazine Carriers
Bayonet
Belt pack (AKA Butt pack)
Poncho
Poncho liner (optional but common)
Spare socks
1 Combat Ration
In pockets
Pad and pencil
lighter and or matches (optional but common ---personally owned)
pocket knife (optional but common ---personally owned)
Penlight (optional but common ---personally owned)
Steel mirror (optional but common)
Marker strobe light (optional but common)
Spoon (From ration pack)

Protective Mask, carrier, and decon kit

Squad Equipment
2 compasses
GPS
Map
2 Radios (only if each soldier is not equipped with one
night vision devices

For long term operations (over 24 hours)
each soldier

Rucksack
Shelter half, pole rope and 4 stakes
Sleeping bag with cover
sleeping pad
extra ammo (particularly SAW ammo)
extra food
extra water
spare batteries (for electronic eguipment)
more dry socks
soap, towel
mess kit
Cold weather gear (if in cold climates)


Squad equipment
squad stove


Then depending on the mission a mix of the following

Long range radio
portable AT weapon
portable AA weapon (extreemly rare as these make the fly boys very nervous,
the consept of shoot them all down, sort them out on the ground)
directional mines (AKA Claymores)
extra grenades
pyrotechics (signal flares, smoke grenades)
A light machine gun

Yes, I was in the military (U.S. Army) Active duty in the infantry in (then)
West Germany (Mannhiem and Baumholder) And in the MPs in the reserves. And yes
I borrowed heavly from the T.O. & Es I remember.






David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
******************************************************
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve niether liberty or
safety.
Ben Franklin
Message no. 60
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Marines ][
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 02:17:33 +0000
> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:36:37 +0100
> From: Spike
> Subject: Re: Marines ][

> And verily, did GRANITE hastily scribble thusly...
> |The mating call of most US military types..With variations resulting
> |from service, location, experiance of the caller...
> |Basically the call is made..and if there are any other military types
> |around it is answered..Accompanied by the craning of necks to locate
> |each other...
>
> I knew US millitary grunts were primative, but this is worse than I
> expected....
>
I was around Fort Benning while a batch of Navy Seals were attending
Jump School.. Everytime one them was "dropped" for push-ups he would bark
like a Seal, all the rest of the Seals would drop and do 10. Drove the Black
Hats (Jump School Instructors) batty. Because when they would then drop one
for unauthorized push-ups, all the Seals would drop. That plus the fact the
Seals would do one armed push-ups, then "realizing their mistake" do ten more
with the other arm, then 10 or 12 with both arms. the rest of the students
apprecated the "rest" time.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
******************************************************
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve niether liberty or
safety.
Ben Franklin
Message no. 61
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:38:59 -0500
> A fire team (3 EM and a Junior NCO) should be armed with a Squad Automatic
> Weapon (a LMG in SR rules) 1 assault rifle (Colt M-22A2) with a underbarrel
> grenade launcher, and 2 assault rifles (again M-22A2s). All of which use the
> same caliber ammunition. The mix of grenades for the launchers would include
> some HEDP (High Explosive, Dual Purpose---for limited light AT capability).
> 2 fire teams to a squad ( one team is lead by the Squad leader)

Im trying to rember something. Is the Team leader the one usually issued
the underbarrel grenade launcher? Or is there a MOS for grenaders?

> > One Colt General Purpuse (I love that since SSC) MMG for the squad
> A Squad normally does not have a machine gun, and normally the machine gun at
> platoon level is a LMG (currently a M-60) with a tripod and T & E.

Hmm since the SAW is a 5.56mm weapon and the M-60 is a 7.62mm weapon and
the next step up is the M-2 12.7mm HMG i would personaly call the Platoon
level MG a MMG. If nothing else it needs to have a higher power level
than the LMG in the squad.

Otherwise i agree with most of what you said about arms and Equipment.


Now since i think this MIGHT be usefull and no one has mentioned it... On
to the PAPER TO&E for light infantry (using the 1994 TOE 1st Battalion,
327th infantry Regiment, 101st Airmoble Division)

Fire Team (3 enlisted men lead by a buck sergeant)
1 LMG gunner (SAW)
2 riflemen (m-16)
1 grenader (m-16/m203 combo)

Rifle Squad
1 staff sergeant as squad leader
2 fire teams

Weapons Squad
1 Staff Sergeant as squad leader
2 MMG gunners (m-60)
2 AT missle Gunners (currently the Dragon but its getting replaced fast!)
4 Riflemen/ammo carriers (M-16 and spare ammo for the heavy weapons)

Rifle Platoon
1 LT platoon leader
1 platoon sergeant
1 Radio Telephone Operator
3 Rifle squads
1 Weapons Squad

Mortar Section
2 60mm mortars served by 6 men, the companies hip pocket artillery.

Rifle Company
1 Capt. as Company CO
1 LT. as Company XO
1 first Sergeant
5 Elisted men as supply and RTOs
3 Rifle Platoons
1 Mortar Section

I dont think that a team of shadowrunners should run into anything
much more than that so i wont go in to the Anti Armor Company or the
Battalion Attachments. Heck i think most shadowrunners would have trouble
with just a platoon.

As I said at the begining of the TO&E that this was the PAPER
TO&E. Most companies will be short on manpower due to various reasons,
especially short on experianced NCOs. One common way to deal with it
seems to be to have Squad Leaders double up as Fire team leaders or just
plain have short squads or only 6 or 7 men.

I would be interested if some of our European list members could tell me
of any differences in the infantry TO&Es of their countries Armed forces.
And yes before you ask i AM an armchair military historian. :)

Thomas Price
AKA The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
Message no. 62
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:53:25 +0100
And verily, did The Bookworm hastily scribble thusly...
|Im trying to rember something. Is the Team leader the one usually issued
|the underbarrel grenade launcher? Or is there a MOS for grenaders?

That's Grenadeers...
I think the IC and 2IC both have standard weapons.
(After all, you don't want to make then more valid targets than the rest of
the squad, do you?

Of course, that also depends on mission, type of soldier, etc.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 63
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Marines
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:28:28 +0200
According to The Bookworm, at 9:38 on 19 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Weapons Squad
> 1 Staff Sergeant as squad leader
> 2 MMG gunners (m-60)
> 2 AT missle Gunners (currently the Dragon but its getting replaced fast!)

FWIW, the US Army's Technical Manual for the M2A2 ODS Bradley IFV lists
Javelin ATGMs instead of M47 Dragons in the stowage plans and parts lists
(this is dated January 1997, so this is quite recent).

> As I said at the begining of the TO&E that this was the PAPER
> TO&E.

Could you send me the whole thing (privately), including battalion and
higher?

> I would be interested if some of our European list members could tell me
> of any differences in the infantry TO&Es of their countries Armed forces.

I don't know about the Dutch Army, but I have the British Army's
organization around here somewhere. I could post it if there's interest in
seeing it; it's much the same as the American one except for interesting
minor differences if you're into this.

> And yes before you ask i AM an armchair military historian. :)

Same here :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Further Reading

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