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Message no. 1
From: "Motion IS the key!" <PROGERS@******.BITNET>
Subject: martial arts
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 92 11:20:00 EST
if you are looking for martial arts, i recommend Palladium Books rpg Ninjas
and Superspies. it lists 41 different hand to hand combat styles in vivid
detail, including the "special powers" that make movie characters and 80-yr
old nth-degree black belts so impressive.

p
Message no. 2
From: "Willard M. Cottrell" <UGCOTTRE@******.BITNET>
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 16:50:02 EDT
I've got a question;
Has anyone on this list been able to successfully blend martial
arts into a shadowrun format?
Cyberpunk has an excelent breakdown of the martial arts but I'd
like to use them in my gaming.
Thanks in Advance,
Willard M. Cottrell
Message no. 3
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 16:20:14 -0500
On Fri, 15 Apr 1994, Willard M. Cottrell wrote:

> I've got a question;
> Has anyone on this list been able to successfully blend martial
> arts into a shadowrun format?

NERPS: ShadowLore (released tomorrow) has a martial arts writeup in it.

Watch this space for an announcement.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Political Correctness is
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n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 4
From: Maddoc <jeglaser@****.AUGIE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 16:40:57 -0500
A few of my gamers wanted to specialize in a particular form of martial arts
they were 'familiar with' (to be read: seen on movies, TV, or read in a book
and thought was pretty cool), so I had them define the style, or tell me what
it was they wanted, and between the two of us decided when the martial art in
question was most effective and least effective. This gave the effect of
`specializing' in a particular form of attack. One of my players was interested
in Savate, so (having a martial arts skill of 5 originally), I allowed his
character to use 6 die when attacking with the feet, but 4 when using chops
or hand strikes and such. This enabled him to engage in highly effective
hand to hand combat with his feet in an accommodating area while still holding
onto a gun or two. I don't know if this helps y'all or not.
Jason

********************************************************************************
"The computer may be able to beat me in chess, but I can beat the hell out
of it in Kickboxing!"
********************************************************************************
Message no. 5
From: ANGLISS@***.PSU.EDU
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 11:50:19 -0400
I have done conversions from GURPS-Martial Arts, but have had not yet had time
to play-test the rules. Mostly I did so because the melee combat system of
SR leaves me wanting more...a lot more. The only other thing I did was
generate rules for Sumito(ala the 97 Steps), but there are at least 2 other
sets of rules for them out there too, so I won't go into those.

Brian
Message no. 6
From: Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 13:32:07 -0500
>I've got a question;
> Has anyone on this list been able to successfully blend martial
>arts into a shadowrun format?
> Cyberpunk has an excelent breakdown of the martial arts but I'd
>like to use them in my gaming.


I've been toying with the idea, something along the WW-style of varying
target numbers and damages for different moves/styles.
Unfortunately, due tests, projects, and a rapidly apraoching finals week, I
really haven't done much with it.

Matt
Message no. 7
From: A cohort's CoHort <cohort@******.CONNECTED.COM>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 1994 03:55:56 -0700
On Fri, 15 Apr 1994, Willard M. Cottrell wrote:

> I've got a question;
> Has anyone on this list been able to successfully blend martial
> arts into a shadowrun format?
> Cyberpunk has an excelent breakdown of the martial arts but I'd
> like to use them in my gaming.
I would suggest looking at GURPS Martial Arts - they got a great
breakdown of martial arts in a gaming setting, not to mention one of the
easiest systems to convert from.

cohort@******.connected.com
-----=====-----
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
When all else fails, read the manual.
Message no. 8
From: Lars M Ericson <lericson@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 1994 12:36:18 CDT
I do believe that the Shadowrun rules concerning martial arts are
specified in the Shadowrun main book (in respects to concentrations
and specializations). If a character has an Unarmed Combat skill of
say, 5. That character can concentrate in a specific form (ie Savate,
Aikido, Wing Chung Kung Fu). If that same character wishes to
specialize, he or she can specialize in a type of attack in that form
(ie hand strikes, kicks, throws, ect...). That would mean that a
martial arts expert tank would have the following if the Unarmed
Combat was originally a 5:

TANK
Unarmed Combat: 3
Savate: 5
Kick Attacks: 7



--
Lars M Ericson: Professional Vagabond <lericson@***.edu>
aka Maxwell Von Talos, 7th Generation Tremere
Team Garotte, Founding Member
Registered Member of a Decadent Society

QUOTE OF THE WEEK:
"The code phrase is: Boy! This is some nice tile here!"
-- Bessy
--
Message no. 9
From: ANGLISS@***.PSU.EDU
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 1994 16:11:21 -0400
You are right. But that doesn't mean the GM can't come up with more detailed
rules for Martial Arts if he desires. I personally did so because I hate the
SR melee combat system and the fact that it doesn't seem(to me, anyway) to
take into account locations like the nose(special effect--watery eyes), groin
(S-stun, but +6 to do anything but groan in pain), etc. So I let the players
who don't want it that realistic and/or that detailed take the regular Armed/
Unarmed, and those who want more take martial arts of some kind. And
invariably(with my players, anyway) the ones who just wanted to use Unarmed
end up asking me if they can do a head-butt or groin shot, so they end up
wanting the martial arts stuff anyway.

And yes, I include things like Boxing and streetfighting(dirty infighting) to
be a martial art for rules purposes.

Brian
Message no. 10
From: Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 09:34:24 -0500
Most special effects, like nose hits, groin shots, striking the throat,
whatever, could prolly be handled using the called shot rule, although I'd use
a smaller penelty than +4. Maybe only +2 for melee combat.

Matt
Message no. 11
From: ANGLISS@***.PSU.EDU
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 13:29:16 -0400
Yes, they can be. But to me, and to many of my player last year, and the guys
I played with this year(as a player), that just wasn't enough. It's a
question of how you like your game, and we generally liked it more detailed
than the called shot rules accounted for.

Brian
Message no. 12
From: "David L. Hoff" <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 22:44:00 CDT
I also have had a problem with Unarmed Combat and Martial Arts, as defined
by SR. According to the SR book, all a player can ever do is punch, with a
damage code of (str)M stun. What I have been thinking of doing is adding some
"moves", such as kick and throw. These moves would have higher base TN's,
such as a 6 for a kick and maybe an 8 for a throw. Dmagec codes could be
adjusted, such as a kick doing (str+3)M stun, or maybe (str)S stun. A throw
would do less damage, but would make the opponent prone.

To make martial arts have some usefullness, you could evaluate the different
styles, and see what the main emphasis of the style is. For example, if a
style uses a lot of punches, a few kicks, but no throws, you could give a
base TN of 3 for a punch, 6 for a kick, and maybe 10 for a throw. If a style
uses a lot of kicks, and some punches, then the TN for punches and kicks may
both be 4s.

Just some ideas. Any one else ever try anything similar?

--Phoenix
dlhoff@****.wisc.edu
Message no. 13
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 00:15:53 -0500
>>>>> "David" == David L Hoff <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
writes:

David> I also have had a problem with Unarmed Combat and Martial Arts, as
David> defined by SR. According to the SR book, all a player can ever do is
David> punch, with a damage code of (str)M stun.

Well, sort of. Melee combat in Shadowrun is very abstracted. An "attack"
isn't necessarilly a single punch; it could be a series of rapid knee and
elbow strikes, or it could be a roundhouse haymaker. But regardless of the
"special effects" of the attack, the total amount of damage is going to be
fairly consistant, based on the attacker's strength.

Martial arts was left vague for a good reason, IMO. It allows the players
and GM to customize how martial arts fit into each group's particular game.
There are those who are of the opinion that any "real" martial artist is,
by definition, a Physical Adept; others who just call martial arts a
concentration of Armed or Unarmed Combat. And there are all kinds of levels
between the two.

There are quite a few ways of actually implementing maneuver-based martial
arts, and a few of them have been posted to the list at various times. I've
seen conversions or adaptations of Hero and Ninjas & Superspies, with
various degrees of success. As a suggestion, you might want to adapt from
Hero or the Streetfighter "storytelling" game, and there are a couple of
ways I can think of doing it. The simplest is to define each style as a
separate concentration of Un/Armed Combat, and create a list of maneuvers
for that style. Each maneuver gets certain bonuses and/or penalties to
target numbers and damage, and potentially neat special effects. The more
complicated variant is to make each maneuver its own special skill, with a
cost structure the same as specialized skills; there are no concentrations
or specializations of these maneuver skills. If a character knows multiple
styles with "overlapping" maneuver skills he shouldn't have to buy the
overlapping skills separately; ie, Kung Fu and Karate both have the
"martial strike" maneuver; a practicioner of both styles would only need to
have bought the "martial strike" skill once to use it with either style. If
you use the first option, be careful not to let the bonuses become
unbalancing; the latter allows a bit more freedom in what you allow for
each manuver, as the cost will help balance out effectiveness.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 14
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 10:35:52 -0800
On Sat, 5 Nov 1994, Kage-kami wrote:

> I share your feeling on guns. I myself am a martial artist and I am
> appauled by how years of trainings in the arts can be destroyed
> by an idiot with a firearm. Although I do not like firearms, they are
> unfortunatly all to much a part of life. I am not against carrying a
> firearm for defense, because no mater what your level of mastery
> is in any art, a gun when used properly will win. However, those
> who depend so heavily on firepower are often in trouble when they
> are without it. As a martial artist, you are never without a weapon.
> My sword is my honor, My sword is my life........

So this means you feel you deserve an edge in a fight due to many
years of training?!?
Sorry, the first rule in martial arts is to deal with the
situation.
I have more than a decade of training, and I still go with Rat:
your most important weapons are your senses (to percieve the danger),
your mind (to think with) and your feet (to run away).
And in these situations, anger is definately *not* a gift.

> Kage-kami > >
> "Anger is a Gift"

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 15
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 10:55:56 -0800
On Sat, 5 Nov 1994, David L. Hoff wrote:

> I also have had a problem with Unarmed Combat and Martial Arts, as defined
> by SR. According to the SR book, all a player can ever do is punch, with a
> damage code of (str)M stun. What I have been thinking of doing is adding some
> "moves", such as kick and throw. These moves would have higher base TN's,
> such as a 6 for a kick and maybe an 8 for a throw. Dmagec codes could be
> adjusted, such as a kick doing (str+3)M stun, or maybe (str)S stun. A throw
> would do less damage, but would make the opponent prone.

You've obviously never seen or felt a reaping uchimata that drops
you on your head. Or an oguruma into a backfall. Or an armlock ogoshi ...
I tried, a long time ago, to make a decent Shadowrun martial arts
system. It just didn't work too well. I had punches a locks and sweeps
and throws and anticipates and feints and all sorts of things to try to
duplicate the dynamics of a fight. But in the end just the plain system
and cinematic description drawing on your expertise works the best.
See, things like assigning more or less damage for kicks and
throws are inherently silly. Which is stronger, a lead-leg roundhouse or
a hook punch? I'd rather take the kick myself. How about trading the
hook punch for a full commitment hane goshi? Sure, the punch is going to
hurt but they are *not* going to get up after I land on them in
kesagatame after the throw. Each technique is different. I know of one
guy who can get more power into a spinning backfist than most people can
get from a spin hook kick. I've seen guys that can pin you without
using their arms or legs, crushing the breath out. There's a woman who
can put her high heel through 3 boards on a jump back kick ... groin
level. And so on. The technique, timing etc. are just too complicated
to try to replicate with any sort of detail.

> styles, and see what the main emphasis of the style is. For example, if a
> style uses a lot of punches, a few kicks, but no throws, you could give a
> base TN of 3 for a punch, 6 for a kick, and maybe 10 for a throw. If a style
> uses a lot of kicks, and some punches, then the TN for punches and kicks may
> both be 4s.

This works until you get into generalized arts like Hapkido, or
Jujitsu, or Pa-Kua. Then what? I've found that game wise, it is better
to have low target numbers or high bonuses for just a few attacks (like,
say Muay Thai with a TN 3 for kicks or +5 dice), while in reality it is
better to have a wide variety of techniques ... once you have attained a
certain level of proficiency in them.
If you want to continue this topic, I suggest we take it to e-mail.

> dlhoff@****.wisc.edu

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 16
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 20:56:03 +0100
I'm trying to come up with a set of expanded martial arts rules for SR,
if anyone can give me examples of some significant and/or common moves in
any of the following Martial Arts I shall appreciate it. Please email me
direct however and not the list :)

Martial Arts: Judo, Kung Fu, Aikido, Tai Kwon Do, Thai Kickboxing, Karate
(any style), Jujitsu, Hsing I, Pa Kwa, Tai Chi, Boxing, and Carromeleg
(the Elven Martial Art).


The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 17
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 18:40:33 -0400
>>>>> "The" == The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK> writes:

The> I'm trying to come up with a set of expanded martial arts rules for
The> SR, if anyone can give me examples of some significant and/or
The> common moves in any of the following Martial Arts I shall
The> appreciate it. Please email me direct however and not the list :)

I'll e-mail this to the list because it's applicable.

There have been several attempts on this list in the past to develop a
more detailed expansion to the "Martial Arts" concentration of Unarmed
Combat, with varying degrees of success. Varying because unlike fire
combat melee combat is almost totally abstracted. A "punch" can be
anything from a single roundhouse to numerous rapid-fire jabs. Because
of that, I feel it's better to keep that level of abstraction than
detail individual manoevers. Based on that, I'd suggest acquiring GURPS:
Martial Arts or The Ultimate Martial Artist, or Ninja Hero if you can
still find it. Then compile a list of "special" manoevers a particular
style may have. When a character wants to achieve a particular effect,
if it's within his style, resolve the melee combat normally. If the
character has more successes than his opponent he's successful in
achieving that effect.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | returned to its special container and
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | kept under refrigeration.
Message no. 18
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 23:06:14 -0400
On Mon, 29 May 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> There have been several attempts on this list in the past to develop a
> more detailed expansion to the "Martial Arts" concentration of Unarmed
> Combat, with varying degrees of success. Varying because unlike fire
> combat melee combat is almost totally abstracted. A "punch" can be
> anything from a single roundhouse to numerous rapid-fire jabs. Because
> of that, I feel it's better to keep that level of abstraction than
> detail individual manoevers. Based on that, I'd suggest acquiring GURPS:
> Martial Arts or The Ultimate Martial Artist, or Ninja Hero if you can
> still find it. Then compile a list of "special" manoevers a particular
> style may have. When a character wants to achieve a particular effect,
> if it's within his style, resolve the melee combat normally. If the
> character has more successes than his opponent he's successful in
> achieving that effect.

I have to agree with Rat on this one. If you try to make a
system the encompasses all of the special techniques of all of the
different arts, you will rapidly become bogged down in numerical crap.
Also, you need to keep in mind that while useful, martial arts are not
necessarily the end all and be all of unarmed combat. I have twelve
years of martial arts experience and I am still well aware of the
possibility of getting totally pasted.
So if you want to make martial arts usable yet realistic, keep it
the way Rat suggested: for basic attacks, just use the normal rules. For
anything special, just compare successes with the winner achieving the
desired effect. The only thing I would add is that many of the maneuvers
are quite difficult to pull off in combat and may require a called-shot
penalty to the target number.

Marc
Message no. 19
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 08:37:10 BST
The digital mage (just you wait for VR-II chummer)
> Carromeleg (the Elven Martial Art).

Now there's an interesting thing, I always looked at the description
for Carromoleg and saw it more as a psychological contest between the
two opponents (you know, who draws first at high noon, first (true)
samurai to move loses), that sort of thing.

More like zen combat than Mortal Kombat.

Phil (Renegade, who uses capoeira becuase it sounded good, before she saw
someone fighting using it)
Message no. 20
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 00:21:44 GMT
> I'm trying to come up with a set of expanded martial arts rules for SR,
> if anyone can give me examples of some significant and/or common moves in
> any of the following Martial Arts I shall appreciate it. Please email me
> direct however and not the list :)

We came up with a few moves which need skill to use, but get you various
benefits (and I say now they're highly movie-based: guns I know, martial
arts I get from Lee (Jr and Sr), Seagal, Van Damme et al). If you have
the general Unarmed Combat, you can use most of them but favour a certain
style: the more you specialise, the less diversity you have.

A lot of them are pure movie: Van Damme's flying roundhouse kick (beloved
of my wife's character), Seagal's locks (Lynch uses a swan-neck wrist hold
to startle and paralyse an opponent and twist him so his weight is on one
leg: then kick into the side of that leg's knee and straight-arm his elbow
on the way down. Complex, but effective: I learned that one from an Army
NCO), and the Japanese skill of catching a sword between your palms.

Too tired to post stats now, but they were fun: okay, you could say "it's
all subsumed within the combat dice anyway" but I like to let players get
an edge from being stylish. After all, if you choose to go hand-to-hand when
you could have shot the guy....

As a side note, have a "honourable" enemy - we use some Yakuza clans, you could
have almost anyone - who prefer hand-to-hand combat: given a chance, they
ritually throw down their firearm and draw melee weapons or assume a fighting
stance, and expect you to come and fight "like a man". Meeting someome in
a challenge like that gave Lynch a lot of face with a hostile Yak clan,
who treated him much better when they (briefly) held him prisoner later than
the other runners (who had mostly laughed and opened fire).

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 21
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 15:12:24 +0100
Following on from a short succession of posts regarding martial arts
rules for SR I thought I might offer to post my own rules.

They are rather long and some of the martial arts aren't complete (hence
if people do want me to post my rules, I'd quite like some feedback to
plug the gaps).

If you want me to post please send a short email directly to me NOT the
list, if I get enough responses I'll post to the list, if not I'll have
everyone's email addresses to post direct to them.

Cheers!

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 22
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 14:50:07 -0400
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>>>>> "TDM" == The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK> writes:

TDM> Following on from a short succession of posts regarding martial
TDM> arts rules for SR I thought I might offer to post my own rules.

Or, you might want to take a look at a book called "Ultimate Martial
Artist". It's a sourcebook for martial arts for the Hero system
(Champions) but there are some rough guidelines for translating UMA
maneuvers to a number of other systems, including Shadowrun.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Message no. 23
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:28:26 -0600
I was reading the comments on martial arts for SRII and I got an idea. I
haven't worked on this so bear with me.

Would it be feasable to describe martial arts styles based on base damage,
reach, type of damage (stun or physical), and maybe initiative modifier.
Also, if a martial style turns out to be overly powerful you could change
the karma cost mutliplier from x1 (for specialized skills) to x1.5 or
higher if need be.

For example Tae Kwan Doe could be:
Str(+2)S(Stun) (powerful kicks, but not necesarily lethal)
+1 reach (again for range of kicks)
-1d6 initiative??? (kicks seem kind of slow)
or
-3 initiative

Also, just for fun, -d6 initiative could be rolled in addition to normal
initiative dice. If a sami has 10+3d6 initiative and uses Tae Kwan Doe as
listed above his initiative would be 10+3d6-1d6.

Just thought I'd toss that out :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
Data Entry Supervisor
The UnCover Company email: dbuehrer@****.org
3801 E. Florida, Suite 200 Voice: (303) 758-3030 x132
Denver, CO 80210 FAX: (303) 758-5946

"The land that had nourished him and had borne him fruit now turned against
him and called him a fruit. Man, I hate land like that."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 24
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:25:10 -0500
> Would it be feasable to describe martial arts styles based on base damage,
> reach, type of damage (stun or physical), and maybe initiative modifier.
> Also, if a martial style turns out to be overly powerful you could change
> the karma cost mutliplier from x1 (for specialized skills) to x1.5 or
> higher if need be.

Was done. Recent post by digital mage, available on WWW at paolo's site, I
think. Also, martial arts are already x1.5 - specific teqniques (kicks only
etc) are what are specializations. At least, in our game. ^_^ But it makes
such specializations as limited as the single weapon types in other catagories.
>
> -1d6 initiative??? (kicks seem kind of slow)
> or
> -3 initiative
>
> Also, just for fun, -d6 initiative could be rolled in addition to normal
> initiative dice. If a sami has 10+3d6 initiative and uses Tae Kwan Doe as
> listed above his initiative would be 10+3d6-1d6.
>
Initiative mopdification is tough to handle, as other actions may be performed
in the same turn, or even combat phase. I presume you meant, roll iniative,
then, after the kick is anounced, make the player delay resolution? OUCH!
Can you say telegraphing your punches! I'd never risk learning such a style.

seb
Message no. 25
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 21:00:16 +0000
On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, Sebastian Wiers wrote:

> Was done. Recent post by digital mage, available on WWW at paolo's site, I
> think.
Its also available at my site! :)

Talking of which, has anyone got any ideas on extra special moves for
those martial arts -I was hoping each would have a special advantage and
3 special moves.

Any other comments?

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 26
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 15:27:34 -0600
Sebastian Wiers writes:

> Would it be feasable to describe martial arts styles based on base damage,
> reach, type of damage (stun or physical), and maybe initiative modifier.
> Also, if a martial style turns out to be overly powerful you could change
> the karma cost mutliplier from x1 (for specialized skills) to x1.5 or
> higher if need be.

| Was done. Recent post by digital mage, available on WWW at paolo's site, I
| think.

Ok, I found DM's martial arts rules on *his* WWW site (Paolo's is
unavailable). I've browsed through it and like what I see. Thanks Seb. MK3
comes to ShadowRun ;)

David

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Message no. 27
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 15:35:11 -0600
The Digital Mage writes:
|
| On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, Sebastian Wiers wrote:
|
| > Was done. Recent post by digital mage, available on WWW at paolo's site, I
| > think.
| Its also available at my site! :)
|
| Talking of which, has anyone got any ideas on extra special moves for
| those martial arts -I was hoping each would have a special advantage and
| 3 special moves.

As soon as I read it I'll let you know.

| Any other comments?

I'm still intrigued by the idea of initiative modification depending on the
style, or maybe on the move. Did your group try anything with that?

David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
Data Entry Supervisor
The UnCover Company email: dbuehrer@****.org
3801 E. Florida, Suite 200 Voice: (303) 758-3030 x132
Denver, CO 80210 FAX: (303) 758-5946

"The land that had nourished him and had borne him fruit now turned against
him and called him a fruit. Man, I hate land like that."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 28
From: Charles McKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:32:32 -0500
On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, The Digital Mage wrote:

> Talking of which, has anyone got any ideas on extra special moves for
> those martial arts -I was hoping each would have a special advantage and
> 3 special moves.

Well, on that note, I was thinking of allowing a physical adept in my
group to do a finishing move one of these days. ;)

Chuck
Message no. 29
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 14:53:06 +0000
On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, David Buehrer wrote:

> | > Was done. Recent post by digital mage, available on WWW at paolo's site, I
> | > think.
> | Its also available at my site! :)
*Shamelessly left in as a plug :) *


> I'm still intrigued by the idea of initiative modification depending on the
> style, or maybe on the move. Did your group try anything with that?

No, it doe sound interesting but as someone said the problem comes when
trying to combine martial arts with other actions.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 30
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:41:06 -0500
>
> The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
> Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
> http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
>
Hey Mage: I've never seen any of the special advantages to Jujitsu (I think it
was). How bout' an erretta? (gee, now don't you feal all FASA like?)
Message no. 31
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 14:48:56 -0500 (EST)
As far as "special rules" and "advantages" for martial arts goes,
they're really not necessary. Most of the special advantages can be
modeled simply as called shots, which are fully within the bounds of the
rules. If you allow called shots to either a) increase damage (or allow
for doing physical damage with unarmed attacks as per FoF), b) ignore
armor, or c) give a special game effect (like leaving the opponent prone
or entangled, or trying to get control of a weapon, or whatever), then
you have all the tools you need to model pretty much any martial arts
situation. If you add in a stipulation that the rules for attacking
multiple opponents in melee can also be used to attack the same opponent
multiple times in melee, you're set.
Some may say, "but a +4 modifier is too harsh for special
techniques!" My reply to this is, no one ever said martial arts was
easy. If it was, more people would do it. It's a fairly easily proven
fact that (barring very extreme circumstances) it's easier to just
cold-cock someone than it is to pull off a fancy throw. Granted, the
throw may do more damage, or may leave the opponent in a poor position,
but it's harder to do. Like anything else, it's a trade-off.

Marc
Message no. 32
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:20:18 -0700 (MST)
I've been working on coming up with a martial arts system for SRII
for about 6 months now, and I think I'm on to something. But, I've
reached a point were I could use some help.

I'm posting what I've got so far on my WWW site
(http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/martialR.html). Just be
warned that it's in a bare bones form. Any and all feedback and
constructive criticism would be welcome.

If you can't get to my WWW site and want a copy, email me *privately*
and I'll send you a copy.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"Wanted: All Kathey Lee Gifford albums. Including her "Greatest
Hits" album and her Christmas album. Contact the Possum Lodge Skeet
Shooting Club."
~~~~~~~~~~www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~~~~
Message no. 33
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:25:46 -0600
<Dave thinking again ;)>

Here's an idea. Complete martial styles are more complete and can deal
with a variety of situations/attacks. Concentrated and Specialized martial
styles focus on a fewer number of maneuvers, sacrificing defensive
capability for a higher skill. So, if a character concentrates or
specialize they get that number of dice for offense, but only as many dice
as they have in their general skill for defense. If a PC takes Martial
Arts (Specialized) 8 they also have Martial Arts 4. If they attack they
get 8 dice. If they are attacked they get 4 dice to defend.

</Dave thinking again>

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 34
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:25:28 +0100
David Buehrer said on 17:25/18 May 97...

> Here's an idea. Complete martial styles are more complete and can deal
> with a variety of situations/attacks. Concentrated and Specialized martial
> styles focus on a fewer number of maneuvers, sacrificing defensive
> capability for a higher skill. So, if a character concentrates or
> specialize they get that number of dice for offense, but only as many dice
> as they have in their general skill for defense. If a PC takes Martial
> Arts (Specialized) 8 they also have Martial Arts 4. If they attack they
> get 8 dice. If they are attacked they get 4 dice to defend.

Like I said before, I'm not a martial artists, but it appears to me like
if you train in a certain style, you also get to defend against that same
style. Your suggestion sounds good to me, though maybe it would be better
to give them their base skill dice to defend against attacks that don't
belong to their chosen martial arts style.
(BTW, a specialization would be in one certain move within a style, while
a concentration of Unarmed Combat is a particular style, IMO.)

For example, if a style doesn't really teach kicks but only punches, then
anyone knowing that style at 6 will have the general skill (4 dice) to
defend against a kick but the concentration (6 dice) to defend against a
punch.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The best you can expect is to avoid the worst.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 35
From: Kevin White <kevw@*****.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:56:03 +0100
[ Rolling out the MA soap box and stepping up with sheaf of paper and
finger poised for action... :)]

David Buehrer said on 17:25/18 May 97...

> Here's an idea. Complete martial styles are more complete and can deal
> with a variety of situations/attacks. Concentrated and Specialized martial
> styles focus on a fewer number of maneuvers, sacrificing defensive
> capability for a higher skill. So, if a character concentrates or
> specialize they get that number of dice for offense, but only as many dice
> as they have in their general skill for defense. If a PC takes Martial
> Arts (Specialized) 8 they also have Martial Arts 4. If they attack they
> get 8 dice. If they are attacked they get 4 dice to defend.

Unfortuately this falls on it's face when you start talking about the
likes of Aikido. This style is, in the main, not taught as a
confrontational style (i.e. no, or very few, offensive manouvers).

Gurth wrote:
>
> Like I said before, I'm not a martial artists, but it appears to me like
> if you train in a certain style, you also get to defend against that same
> style.

This is true in as much as you become aware of the flaws or holes in
certain styles. As an exaple I will cite Tae Kwon Do. This is mainly
taught in Britain for competitin use and in most of the competitions
legs are not considered valid targets. Hence if you can determine that
someone is using Tae Kwon Do a leg sweep would be a good tactical
manoeuver (not that I'm saying it would always work), especially when
you also consider that Tae Kwon Do empasises a lot of high kicks.


> For example, if a style doesn't really teach kicks but only punches, then
> anyone knowing that style at 6 will have the general skill (4 dice) to
> defend against a kick but the concentration (6 dice) to defend against a
> punch.

Sorry but this does not follow. Most martial arts teach a fairly similar
set of basic blocks. These can be applied to an incoming attack
regradless of the attacks form (obviously this is a bit of a
generalisation, I for one wouldn't try to block a sword or a bullet). To
extend Gurths example, if a style concentrates on kicks you can still
block punches because most attacks come in approximately the same way.


Diamond
Message no. 36
From: Jason Hyatt <jhyatt@****.WINCOM.NET>
Subject: martial arts
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:31:40 -0400
In my campaign Martial arts is no longer a sub skill of unarmed but
is a skill in itself this skill is used like a pool on a special
table to adjust just about every thing that the character can do when
the character chooses a style it doesn't add anything new only gives
modifiers to the target numbers and removes one or more of the
options this balances out the lower cost of using a concentration. A
specialization would be in only one of the options on the table.



Jason Hyatt
Box 1285
Blenheim, Ont.
N0P-1A0
(519) 676-6529

jhyatt@********.com
darkclaw@*********.com

HomePage : http://www.ciaccess.com/~jhyatt
Shadowrun : http://www.ciaccess.com/~jhyatt/sr.html
Earth Dawn : http://www.ciaccess.com/~jhyatt/ed.html

ICQ UIN : 192654

>>>>>[ The only thing that all fear is Knowledge ]<<<<<
-Falin "Dark-Claw" <00:00:00/01-21-57>
Message no. 37
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:42:53 -0600
Kevin White wrote:
|
| [ Rolling out the MA soap box and stepping up with sheaf of paper and
| finger poised for action... :)]
|
| David Buehrer said on 17:25/18 May 97...
|
| > Here's an idea. Complete martial styles are more complete and can deal
| > with a variety of situations/attacks. Concentrated and Specialized martial
| > styles focus on a fewer number of maneuvers, sacrificing defensive
| > capability for a higher skill. So, if a character concentrates or
| > specialize they get that number of dice for offense, but only as many dice
| > as they have in their general skill for defense. If a PC takes Martial
| > Arts (Specialized) 8 they also have Martial Arts 4. If they attack they
| > get 8 dice. If they are attacked they get 4 dice to defend.
|
| Unfortuately this falls on it's face when you start talking about the
| likes of Aikido. This style is, in the main, not taught as a
| confrontational style (i.e. no, or very few, offensive manouvers).

Okay. Then if a person concentrates in Aikido 5, they have Unarmed
Combat 3. They get to use 3 dice for offense and 5 dice for
defense. If the same character were to further specialize in the
defensive aspects of Aikido they would have 6 dice for defense and 2
dice for offense.

Likewise if a character concentrated in an offensive style like Tai
Kwon Do 5, they would get 5 dice for offense, 3 for defense. If they
further specialized in TK's attacks they would have a 6 offense and a
2 defense.

If the specialized TK person later decided they wanted to have a
better defense they could raise their Unarmed Combat 2 by spending
karma (as a general skill).

So, as I see it you can learn all the aspects of an unarmed combat
style, or you can focus on the defensive or offensive aspects. If
you spend all your time practicing strikes, and only a token ammount
practicing blocks, then you'll increase your attacking skill faster
(less karma) but you'll have poor defensive skills. And from my
limited experience I have seen people do this. There's usually at
least one person in the dojo who nobody can lay a hand on (not
counting the teacher :), and then there's the guy (or gal) who's a
flury of attacks.

Okay, now will all the people with extensive RL experience please
tell me where the holes in this are? Thanks :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 38
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:46:51 -0600
David Buehrer wrote:
|
| Kevin White wrote:
| |
| | [ Rolling out the MA soap box and stepping up with sheaf of paper and
| | finger poised for action... :)]
| |
| | David Buehrer said on 17:25/18 May 97...
| |
| | > Here's an idea. Complete martial styles are more complete and can deal
| | > with a variety of situations/attacks. Concentrated and Specialized martial
| | > styles focus on a fewer number of maneuvers, sacrificing defensive
| | > capability for a higher skill. So, if a character concentrates or
| | > specialize they get that number of dice for offense, but only as many dice
| | > as they have in their general skill for defense. If a PC takes Martial
| | > Arts (Specialized) 8 they also have Martial Arts 4. If they attack they
| | > get 8 dice. If they are attacked they get 4 dice to defend.
| |
| | Unfortuately this falls on it's face when you start talking about the
| | likes of Aikido. This style is, in the main, not taught as a
| | confrontational style (i.e. no, or very few, offensive manouvers).
|
| Okay. Then if a person concentrates in Aikido 5, they have Unarmed
| Combat 3. They get to use 3 dice for offense and 5 dice for
| defense. If the same character were to further specialize in the
| defensive aspects of Aikido they would have 6 dice for defense and 2
| dice for offense.

One more note, GMs could decide that certain styles such as Aikido
require concentration. Or maybe have +1 dice for offense and -1 dice
for defense (heck, if it works for totems, why not martial arts :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 39
From: tom Cone <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:52:17 -1000
>heck, if it works for totems, why not martial >arts?
You wander into Physad turf. Incidentally, I think the system works fine
without modification. Then again, I know nothing of martial arts.

Brother-1. Decker for hire.
"Black IC!! You eeediot!! You bloated code!!
You sick little program!! I will DELETE YOU!!!!"
Message no. 40
From: Kevin White <kevw@*****.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:06:40 +0100
David Buehrer wrote:
>
> [8<.. MA Concentraiotn examples]
>
Unfortunately, the flaw which I see in this is that if you concentrate
more in offensive manouvers your skill in defense does not diminish.
That is like saying if you concentrate in shooting rifles your skill
with pistols diminishes.

> So, as I see it you can learn all the aspects of an unarmed combat
> style, or you can focus on the defensive or offensive aspects. If
> you spend all your time practicing strikes, and only a token ammount
> practicing blocks, then you'll increase your attacking skill faster
> (less karma) but you'll have poor defensive skills.

This is very true but I would suggest that in SR terms this was
specializing in the offensive components of a particular style
(concentration). In the main martial arts are taught as a balance
between offense and defence. I admit that some styles ephasise one or
the other but this does not mean that they neglect to teach students how
to defend against attacks. Indeed I would suggest that any teacher who
didn't teach his students how to defend themselves from the attacks they
are learning would be negligent since what would the student do during
kumite.

> And from my
> limited experience I have seen people do this. There's usually at
> least one person in the dojo who nobody can lay a hand on (not
> counting the teacher :), and then there's the guy (or gal) who's a
> flury of attacks.
>
Again this has some truth to it but I would suggest that this does not
arise as a result off the style but as a consequence of the individual.

> Okay, now will all the people with extensive RL experience please
> tell me where the holes in this are? Thanks :)
>
Just to clarify I have extensive RL experiense with quite a wide variety
of martial arts over the last 10 or so years.

Diamond
Message no. 41
From: Kevin White <kevw@*****.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:17:43 +0100
David Buehrer wrote:
> One more note, GMs could decide that certain styles such as Aikido
> require concentration. Or maybe have +1 dice for offense and -1 dice
> for defense (heck, if it works for totems, why not martial arts :)
>
I haven't thought this one through but this would provide a happy
balance between realism and complexity whilst still reflecting the
differences between styles. Mind you to keep it on this level it may be
difficult since martial arts like Jeet Kune Do (I think thats the name
of the one Bruce Lee taught) are better with hand movements and Tae Kwon
Do like to do flashy kicks so how do you reflect this in dice and target
number modifications. Yes, you could take it down to the move level as I
have seen many systems do. But the problem I have with this is it
introduces anothter level of rules, and I am anti-rules at the best of
times :)

What I tend to try and do is encourage the players to describe what they
are attempting to do. If it is interesting or well thought out (or makes
me laugh!) and I, as GM, feel the character is up to it I may reward the
player with extra dice.

Diamond
Message no. 42
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:39:15 -0600
Kevin White wrote:
|
| David Buehrer wrote:
| >
| > [8<.. MA Concentraiotn examples]
| >
| Unfortunately, the flaw which I see in this is that if you concentrate
| more in offensive manouvers your skill in defense does not diminish.
| That is like saying if you concentrate in shooting rifles your skill
| with pistols diminishes.

While shooting rifles is somewhat analagous to shooting pistols, I
feel that offensive martial art maneuvers are not analagous to
defensive maneuvers. Like tennis and pistol. Both involve
projectiles but neither equates with the other. If you play tennis
and shoot pistols, but spend twice as much energy on shooting
pistols, your going to be better at pistol then you will be at tennis
(all things being equal).

| > So, as I see it you can learn all the aspects of an unarmed combat
| > style, or you can focus on the defensive or offensive aspects. If
| > you spend all your time practicing strikes, and only a token ammount
| > practicing blocks, then you'll increase your attacking skill faster
| > (less karma) but you'll have poor defensive skills.
|
| This is very true but I would suggest that in SR terms this was
| specializing in the offensive components of a particular style
| (concentration).

But then you start running into problems with rule mechanics. My
main gripe is that if a character specializes in martial arts he
doesn't lose anything and gains unarmed combat at half the karma
cost. I also want something simple (no offense to Digital Mage and Ms
Naughton).

| In the main martial arts are taught as a balance
| between offense and defence. I admit that some styles ephasise one or
| the other but this does not mean that they neglect to teach students how
| to defend against attacks. Indeed I would suggest that any teacher who
| didn't teach his students how to defend themselves from the attacks they
| are learning would be negligent since what would the student do during
| kumite.

I agree 100%. When I was taking karate the forms I was taught were a
very nice balance of defensive and offensive maneuvers. And teachers
should teach their students both. But the choice to concentrate or
specialize is just that, the choice of the character. I personally
would spend time on all aspects of the martial art I was being
taught. But I can make a character that feels, "Frag blocking. I
wanna take the other guy down fast."

| > And from my
| > limited experience I have seen people do this. There's usually at
| > least one person in the dojo who nobody can lay a hand on (not
| > counting the teacher :), and then there's the guy (or gal) who's a
| > flury of attacks.
| >
| Again this has some truth to it but I would suggest that this does not
| arise as a result off the style but as a consequence of the individual.

Right. I'm advocating defining styles as general skills, with +/-
offensive/defensive dice depending on the style. Then if a player
decides that his character is the offensive type (no pun intended :)
he can concentrate/specialize as he sees fit.

| > Okay, now will all the people with extensive RL experience please
| > tell me where the holes in this are? Thanks :)
| >
| Just to clarify I have extensive RL experiense with quite a wide variety
| of martial arts over the last 10 or so years.

The feedback is greatly appreciated. This response to your post is
meant to make it clear what my feelings (at the moment) are. I felt
you didn't quite understand what I was saying. What I'm trying to do
is adjust the rules for both realism *and* playability. From this
point on feel free to rip it to shreds :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 43
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: martial arts
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 03:48:48 +0200
To Jason Hyatt <jhyatt@****.WINCOM.NET>

Your keyboard must be damaged. Perhaps you can paste some of this in
your mail:
..................,,,,,,,,,;;;;:::!!!!!!

Sorry, it's late, and you really should punctuate your mail ...

--
Arno
*********************************************************************
Be careful when replying to this mail - check the address !!!
(And send me a note when you notice that
the reply-to-address points to the list!)
*********************************************************************
Message no. 44
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:47:46 -0500
I was spending some time making Martial Arts styles from the system in
TSS-02 (Thanks Adam) and I got RMSS' Martial Arts Companion (It's got
nifty descriptions of different styles including theeir focus :) and got
to thinking ... Since the system TSS makes the cost of a martial arts
system *AT LEAST* 100% and usually more (For example, I tried to write up
Cha Yon Ryu, the style I study, and the complexity rating [see TSS-02]
came out to 3.1 so learning this style would cost 310% of normal.), why
not do what the MA Companion in RMSS did and divide the skills into the
Martial Arts Skill (a concentration of Unarmed Combat) and a Martial Arts
Style (concetrate in type of maneuvers like strikes, kicks, etc ...
specialize in maneuvers like elbow strike, snap kick, etc ...) and when
attacking using the Martial Arts Style, use the lesser of the two skill
ratings. The cost where this gets wierd ...

You could say that the each skill (the martial arts concentration of the
unarmed combat skill and the Martial Arts Style skill) cost
(complexity/2*100)% of normal.

You could also say that the Martial Arts concentration of the Unarmed
Combat skill costs the normal amount while the cost for the Martial Arts
Style skill is ([complexity -1]*100)%.

IMO, both have serious drawbacks and since you can design a Martial Arts
sytem with a complexity of 1, it can muck things up ... However the
second option is much more conducive to designing chars who study Martial
Arts at char creation (Whether this is good or bad I don't know :). Note
that either option will actually result in increased costs ...

The Martial Arts System I refer to is TSS-02 available TSS Productions,
the addy is: http://www.interware.it/users/adamj/
Interware is currently having server problems so if you have trouble
accessing the page, just try again later :)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 45
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:00:35 -0500
On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:47:46 -0500 Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
writes:
<SNIP>
>The cost where this gets
>wierd ...
>
>You could say that the each skill (the martial arts concentration of
>the unarmed combat skill and the Martial Arts Style skill) cost
>(complexity/2*100)% of normal.
>
>You could also say that the Martial Arts concentration of the Unarmed
>Combat skill costs the normal amount while the cost for the Martial
>Arts Style skill is ([complexity -1]*100)%.
>
<SNIP>
<SNIP My Own Sig :) >

One thing I forgot to mention ... The Martial Arts Style Skill would be a
knowledge skill and depending on how exactly the SR3 system skill
purchase system works, may or may not be purchased with the knowledge
skill points ...

1) If the SR3 has a set of skill points that can only be used to buy
knowledge skills and a set that can only be used to buy active skills
then, yes you can use the knowledge skill points to buy it.

2) If the SR3 system has a set of points for Knowledge, a set for active,
and a set for both then, you must buy this skill with the set for both
...

NOTE1: If version 1 is true, then one of the first house rules I may make
might be a ratio for converting skill points from active to knowledge
skills ...

NOTE2: It would seem that SR3's removal of the skill web will facilitate
the addition of new skills and defaulting to odd skills as well :)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 46
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:17:29 -0500
I've been thinking and here are some possible optional rules fro Martial
Arts:

1) Power of attack is equal to higher of skill or strength.

2) Power of attack is equal to lesser of skill or strength.

3) Instead of making new mechanics for Martial Arts Styles, use
specializations. (Ie, instead of saying Tae Kwon Do-ists get +1 Power
with their kicks or something, they have a specialization in kicking.)

4) Perhaps make a few special Martial Arts skills (like Hardening.)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid

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Message no. 47
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:25:12 -0400
Quoting D. Ghost (dghost@****.COM):
> I've been thinking and here are some possible optional rules fro Martial
> Arts:
> 1) Power of attack is equal to higher of skill or strength.
>
> 2) Power of attack is equal to lesser of skill or strength.

I don't think these are necessary. As it currently stands, skill
factors into damage for melee combat quite nicely. And as a physically
weak martial artist, let me tell you - strength DOES matter. Skill matters
too (you can be as strong as you want, and if you don't hit me, or you hit
me in the wrong place, it doesn't help you), but anyone who tells you
that 'with martial arts, it doesn't matter how strong you are!' is feeding
you a line of bull. Strength ALWAYS helps. It's not enough to have technique,
you have to have the resolve to execute it, and the strength to pull it
off.

> 3) Instead of making new mechanics for Martial Arts Styles, use
> specializations. (Ie, instead of saying Tae Kwon Do-ists get +1 Power
> with their kicks or something, they have a specialization in kicking.)

Now, this I like. But I'd make some broad categories for techniques
(say, Hand Strikes, Kicks, and Grappling), and give each some special rules
(+1 Reach for kicks, bonus power for hand strikes (I know, they're not really
stronger than kicks, but they ARE harder to avoid, and you can throw them
faster), and some sort of pin/choke for grappling that does increasing
damage each round until the victim breaks free). Then let people specialize
in one of the three if they choose. Kicks for TKD practicioners, Grappling
for Judoka, hand strikes for boxers, etc.

> 4) Perhaps make a few special Martial Arts skills (like Hardening.)

Hmm. MAYBE, but you'd have to be careful not to get off into
movie-fantasy land.


--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 48
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:13:21 -0400
At 10:25 PM 10-14-98 -0400, you wrote:
>Quoting D. Ghost (dghost@****.COM):
>
>> 4) Perhaps make a few special Martial Arts skills (like Hardening.)
>
> Hmm. MAYBE, but you'd have to be careful not to get off into
>movie-fantasy land.
>
>Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking

Sure, cinematic martial arts abilities exist; they're called adept powers...

The real problem is how to make martial arts abilities that DON'T involve
adept powers.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 49
From: Anakin <anakin@**.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:06:15 +1000
Sean McCrohan wrote:

> I don't think these are necessary. As it currently stands, skill
> factors into damage for melee combat quite nicely. And as a physically
> weak martial artist, let me tell you - strength DOES matter. Skill matters
> too (you can be as strong as you want, and if you don't hit me, or you hit
> me in the wrong place, it doesn't help you), but anyone who tells you
> that 'with martial arts, it doesn't matter how strong you are!' is feeding
> you a line of bull. Strength ALWAYS helps. It's not enough to have technique,
> you have to have the resolve to execute it, and the strength to pull it
> off.

hmmmm actually I can tell you that strength is not necessary. It may
help but you do not need to be stronger than a person to win hand to hand.
Strength will only really help if you can actually land a hit or grab the person
you are attacking. It is not a load of bull that strength does not matter you
can build your strength as much as you want and still be as vulnerable as anyone
else to someone with superior skill and less strength.


anakin
Message no. 50
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 22:24:37 +1000
>> me in the wrong place, it doesn't help you), but anyone who tells you
>> that 'with martial arts, it doesn't matter how strong you are!' is feeding
>> you a line of bull. Strength ALWAYS helps. It's not enough to have
technique,

> hmmmm actually I can tell you that strength is not necessary.
It may
>help but you do not need to be stronger than a person to win hand to hand.
>Strength will only really help if you can actually land a hit or grab the
person
>you are attacking. It is not a load of bull that strength does not matter
you
>can build your strength as much as you want and still be as vulnerable as
anyone
>else to someone with superior skill and less strength.

Oh, absolutely - but that wasn't what Sean was saying. If I understood him
correctly, he was saying that Strength is _always_ a factor.

In other words, in the case of two opposing martial artists - both using
the same style, both equally skilled, and equally fast - the one who's
stronger, has the advantage of the other.

Lady Jestyr

- In the force if Yoda's so strong, then construct a sentence -
- with words in the proper order why can't he? -
- jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr -
Message no. 51
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:02:36 -0400
Quoting Lady Jestyr (jestyr@*******.COM.AU):
> Oh, absolutely - but that wasn't what Sean was saying. If I understood him
> correctly, he was saying that Strength is _always_ a factor.
>
> In other words, in the case of two opposing martial artists - both using
> the same style, both equally skilled, and equally fast - the one who's
> stronger, has the advantage of the other.

Precisely. Anyone who thinks that strength has NO effect on hand
to hand combat is living in a fantasy world. Unfortunately, there are a lot of
unrealistic statements that get made about the martial arts, even by some
(bad) instructors, that promote that sort of thing.
I certainly wasn't saying that a weaker MA couldn't beat a stronger
one. But they need to have a compensating advantage (greater skill, or
speed, or reach, or some situational advantage), and they're probably going
to have to land several more strikes (assuming a hard style) than the stronger
person would. Skill multiplies the effectiveness of your strength, but
100 * 0 is still 0. You have to have somewhere to start from.
Some other popular martial-arts myths: there exists a martial art
that is superior to all others (okay, I suppose there may, but you can't
prove it...some arts may just be bad, but among the decent ones, there are
situations where each of them has an advantage over the others. Trying to
say one is the best is a useless religious argument, but one people never seem
to tire of), martial arts are thousands of years old (sure, as a class of
knowledge, but just about every Asian martial art you've ever heard of was
probably developed in the 1800s...that's AD, by the way), and a 'black
belt' is the pinacle of achievement (ranks vary by art, but usually, getting
your black belt just means you now know enough to start playing by the REAL
rules. You finished high school, welcome to college.)
I like the martial arts. I enjoy mine...at least enough to tolerate
the bruises and keep going back :) But there are a lot of misunderstandings
about what they are and aren't - or so it seems from my own rather humble
perspective on them.


<ObSR>
Unrelated to that rant, but still on the topic of martial arts:
IMHO, the single most important skill or attribute to put points into to
adequately represent an experienced martial artist is Willpower. Strength,
Quickness, and Body are all important. Unarmed Combat is important. But
there are plenty of weak, slow, or frail martial artists. What there AREN'T,
outside of the beginner levels, are martial artists who GIVE UP.
That's the #1 lesson that the martial arts teach. Everybody knows
that if you're stronger & faster, or smarter & more skilled, you can win.
But the third component, the one people forget, is that if you don't have either
of those, but you're willing to keep on going after everyone else has quit
and gone home, you win. Sheer, bloody-minded determination - will to win,
will to survive, whatever you care to call it - is a major factor in the
martial arts. The next time you're statting a highly experienced martial
artist NPC, someone up in the Unarmed Combat 7 range, consider Willpower...oh, 7
or 8. Sure, it doesn't actually help them much as far as the combat rules go,
but it's probably realistic.
</ObSR>


--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 52
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:07:09 -0500
Honest, there's some SR material in here, I promise. If you don't want
to sit through the more philosophical discussion of Martial Arts,
Fast-Forward to the End.

On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:02:36 -0400 Sean McCrohan
<mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU> writes:
>Quoting Lady Jestyr (jestyr@*******.COM.AU):
>> Oh, absolutely - but that wasn't what Sean was saying. If I understood
him
>> correctly, he was saying that Strength is _always_ a factor.
>>
>> In other words, in the case of two opposing martial artists - both
using
>> the same style, both equally skilled, and equally fast - the one who's
>> stronger, has the advantage of the other.

> Precisely. Anyone who thinks that strength has NO effect on hand
>to hand combat is living in a fantasy world. Unfortunately, there are a
lot of
>unrealistic statements that get made about the martial arts, even by
some
>(bad) instructors, that promote that sort of thing.
> I certainly wasn't saying that a weaker MA couldn't beat a
stronger
>one. But they need to have a compensating advantage (greater skill, or
>speed, or reach, or some situational advantage), and they're probably
going
>to have to land several more strikes (assuming a hard style) than the
stronger
>person would. Skill multiplies the effectiveness of your strength, but
>100 * 0 is still 0. You have to have somewhere to start from.

My instructor repeatedly says "Everyone here has enough strength to break
a brick"

> Some other popular martial-arts myths: there exists a martial
art
>that is superior to all others (okay, I suppose there may, but you can't
>prove it...some arts may just be bad, but among the decent ones, there
are
>situations where each of them has an advantage over the others. Trying
to
>say one is the best is a useless religious argument, but one people
never seem
>to tire of),

What I get from my instructor is that there not "bad martial arts styles"
only "bad martial teaching methods".

>martial arts are thousands of years old (sure, as a class of
>knowledge, but just about every Asian martial art you've ever heard of
was
>probably developed in the 1800s...that's AD, by the way),

The Martial Arts style I study was founded in 1970, but I wouldn't say
that it is about 30 year's old. I think the "myth" stems from the
misconception that every style is the same (ie, some people will refer to
any martial arts style as Karate. [My Cha-Yon Ryu {Korean meaning
"Natural Way"} class at UofH is called Karate in order to draw more
students.]) I, however, believe there is some validity to this myth.
Every martial arts style in existence currently did not spring out of
thin air. Many, if not most, are evolutions (or perhaps de-evolutions in
some cases. ;) from a handful of "original" styles. For example, Cha-Yon
Ryu draws from Chung-Fa Kung-Fu, Shotokan Karate, Hapkido/Aikido,
Judo/Jujitsu, Tae Kwon Do (My instructor was 7th Dan in Tae Kwon Do
around when he founded Cha-Yon Ryu), and Bong-Sul. Thus, it could be
argued that Cha-Yon Ryu is as old as all of those styles. It is my
personal belief that Martial Styles should not be rated by age as that
(IMO) is an extremely superficial assessment.

By the way, in *theory*, when you achieve any belt in Cha-Yon Ryu, you
should be qualified as the equivelent belt in any of its elements.

>and a 'black
>belt' is the pinacle of achievement (ranks vary by art, but usually,
getting
>your black belt just means you now know enough to start playing by the
REAL
>rules. You finished high school, welcome to college.)

The basic training (10th Gup [sp?] through 1rst Gup, ie, color belts), is
(as I understand it) a combination of unlearning everything we know that
is wrong (returning the mind to a sort clean slate) and building a
foundation of the correct basics (You learn to walk THEN you learn to
run.).

By the way, your comparison of black belts to college is an interesting
one since in the Cha-Yon Ryu system, you are required to write a thesis
for each black belt.

Also, it should be noted that you NEVER achieve any "pinacle" Martial
Arts knowledge/ability. My instructor recently (ie, a few years ago.
3?) achieved 10th Dan (Usually an honor bestowed to actively training 9th
Dans when they die.) and he still considers himself to be learning.

> I like the martial arts. I enjoy mine...at least enough to
tolerate
>the bruises and keep going back :) But there are a lot of
misunderstandings
>about what they are and aren't - or so it seems from my own rather
humble
>perspective on them.

I like mine too. Part of that, I would say is the environment. This is
not a class where you go and pummel each other sensless, maintain
excutiating stances for half an hour, or otherwise abuse your body and
hope it will eventually adapt. The training is as much of the mind as
the body and the physical training is non-abusive (I wouldn't say it's
gentle ;). The training, as indicated in the name of the style (Cha-Yon
Ryu = "Natural Way"), focuses on natural body movements and the way your
body is supposed to act. While this may not have the razzle-dazzle
impressive appearance of cinematic martial arts, it does promote health &
fitness, as well as reducing the likelyhood of injury.

><ObSR>
> Unrelated to that rant, but still on the topic of martial arts:
>IMHO, the single most important skill or attribute to put points into to
>adequately represent an experienced martial artist is Willpower.
Strength,
>Quickness, and Body are all important. Unarmed Combat is important. But
>there are plenty of weak, slow, or frail martial artists. What there
AREN'T,
>outside of the beginner levels, are martial artists who GIVE UP.
> That's the #1 lesson that the martial arts teach. Everybody
knows
>that if you're stronger & faster, or smarter & more skilled, you can
win.
>But the third component, the one people forget, is that if you don't
have
>either
>of those, but you're willing to keep on going after everyone else has
quit
>and gone home, you win. Sheer, bloody-minded determination - will to
win,
>will to survive, whatever you care to call it - is a major factor in the
>martial arts. The next time you're statting a highly experienced martial
>artist NPC, someone up in the Unarmed Combat 7 range, consider
Willpower...oh,
>7
>or 8. Sure, it doesn't actually help them much as far as the combat
rules go,
>but it's probably realistic.
></ObSR>

Okay, my take on things in a SR context:

Power of unarmed attacks should be based on Strength then increased by
Martial Arts skill. However, for play balance, I reccomend using the
higher of Strength or Martial Arts skill level.

Timing and proper breathing is extremely important in combat. A highly
skill Martial Artist should tire less rapidly. Timing theoreticly should
already be taken into account in the normal skill roll. I don't recall
any exaustion rate rules in SR, but a properly trained Martial Artist
should tire (MA skill level) times more slowly than your untrained Joe.

I see no reason why devolping your Martial Arts training to the fullest
shouldn't take a huge portion of you skill points. (As a side note, in
Rolemaster, whenever I made a Martial Artist character, I spent more than
half (something more like 2/3rds, IIRC) of the available skill points on
Martial Arts skills.

Another way to handle Martial Arts is to make Martial Arts a seperate
skill from Unarmed Combat which can not exceed your unarmed combat skill
level. This is a bit of an oversimplified method for representing the
difference between MA basics (Unarmed Combat) and MA style specific
training/Black Belt Training (The new MA skill). Unfortunately, this
brings up a question of how many dice to roll while using the Martial
Arts skill. Just the Unarmed Combat or MA Skill Dice seems to few.
Unarmed Combat+MA Skill, Unarmed Combat+(1/2 MA Skill), and MA Skill+(1/2
Unarmed Combat) all seem to be too many.

On your comment:
Perhaps a Willpower test with a target number of (10-(MA Skill /2)),
round up, where every success counters 1 point of wound penalties.
(works similarly to Pain Resistance except with pain resistance, to
offset a Light Stun and A Light Physical, you need 1 level, but with this
test, you need 2 successes.)

Note: I made several references to MA skill (Martial Arts skill). Yes
this means I intend these rules to be only available to Martial Artists,
not just to any shmuck with Unarmed Combat.

Ick, this go long really fast. I'll shut up now. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid

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Message no. 53
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:50:20 -0700
:The next time you're statting a highly experienced martial
:artist NPC, someone up in the Unarmed Combat 7 range, consider
Willpower...oh, 7
:or 8. Sure, it doesn't actually help them much as far as the combat rules
go,
:but it's probably realistic.


Au contrare- willpower helps plenty- it raises combat pool. With a 7
skill, your second attack in a turn will tap out almost any combat pool.
All 1 on 1 melee can easily have 2 exchanges a turn- each person attacks
once. So, given equal skill, the person with more combat pool will be
rolling more dice in the second exchange. My "pitfighter" archetype, a
human mundane, has a good willpower for just that reason.
Also, you need willpower to stand up if you get knocked down; it's a
will or body test (the lower?) vs. 2 plus wounds, iirc.
With all that, plus magical resistance, willpower is one of the most
broadly useful attributes in SR.
Mongoose
Message no. 54
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:02:40 -0400
On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, Anakin wrote:

->Sean McCrohan wrote:
->
->> I don't think these are necessary. As it currently stands, skill
->> factors into damage for melee combat quite nicely. And as a physically
->> weak martial artist, let me tell you - strength DOES matter. Skill matters
->> too (you can be as strong as you want, and if you don't hit me, or you hit
->> me in the wrong place, it doesn't help you), but anyone who tells you
->> that 'with martial arts, it doesn't matter how strong you are!' is feeding
->> you a line of bull. Strength ALWAYS helps. It's not enough to have technique,
->> you have to have the resolve to execute it, and the strength to pull it
->> off.
->
-> hmmmm actually I can tell you that strength is not
->necessary. It may help but you do not need to be stronger than a person
->to win hand to hand.

Which is portrayed in SR3 rules perfectly by stating you roll
skill vs. skill. Strength only applies when damage is dealt to the losing
party.

->Strength will only really help if you can actually land a hit or grab
->the person you are attacking. It is not a load of bull that strength
->does not matter you can build your strength as much as you want and
->still be as vulnerable as anyone else to someone with superior skill and
->less strength.

See above. I believe his argument was to not allow the combat
skill in the place of the Strength Rating to determine the power of the
damage. His reasoning for this is the same as yours: You require skill
to hit (successes indicate the level of precision) but still only hit with
as much Strength as you can put into it. If you roll five more successes
than your opponent in unarmed, unless your opponent is a troll, your
opponent is very likely to take damage, regardless of your Strength, which
is the point both of you are trying to make.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 55
From: Anakin <anakin@**.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:17:10 +1000
Sean McCrohan wrote:

> Precisely. Anyone who thinks that strength has NO effect on hand
> to hand combat is living in a fantasy world. Unfortunately, there are a lot of
> unrealistic statements that get made about the martial arts, even by some
> (bad) instructors, that promote that sort of thing.
> I certainly wasn't saying that a weaker MA couldn't beat a stronger
> one. But they need to have a compensating advantage (greater skill, or
> speed, or reach, or some situational advantage), and they're probably going
> to have to land several more strikes (assuming a hard style) than the stronger
> person would. Skill multiplies the effectiveness of your strength, but
> 100 * 0 is still 0. You have to have somewhere to start from.

ahhhh now I see what you are getting at. I guess I am too used to the opinion being
spouted that that guy over there that is 6'4" and looks like a building can always
beet the weedy guy sitting in the corner no matter what each knows.

> Some other popular martial-arts myths: there exists a martial art
> that is superior to all others (okay, I suppose there may, but you can't
> prove it...some arts may just be bad, but among the decent ones, there are
> situations where each of them has an advantage over the others. Trying to
> say one is the best is a useless religious argument, but one people never seem
> to tire of), martial arts are thousands of years old (sure, as a class of
> knowledge, but just about every Asian martial art you've ever heard of was
> probably developed in the 1800s...that's AD, by the way), and a 'black
> belt' is the pinacle of achievement (ranks vary by art, but usually, getting
> your black belt just means you now know enough to start playing by the REAL
> rules. You finished high school, welcome to college.)

well put, although from the what I have seen from the teachers I have met I think it
may be like welcome out of kindergarten with the amount of knowledge and skill there
is to acquire.

> I like the martial arts. I enjoy mine...at least enough to tolerate
> the bruises and keep going back :) But there are a lot of misunderstandings
> about what they are and aren't - or so it seems from my own rather humble
> perspective on them.

Indeed from my experience the second someone finds out that you have experience
in X art they want to see you do something really cool. There are very few people I
have met who actually take the arts seriously and actually know what they are about.

Anakin
Message no. 56
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:39:39 -0400
On Sun, 18 Oct 1998, D. Ghost wrote:

<monster snip>
->My instructor repeatedly says "Everyone here has enough strength to break
->a brick"

Lessee.... for every success you achieve over Deadly damage, Power
is raised by 2..... so, technically, within SR3 rules, this is correct.

<another monster Snip>
->Power of unarmed attacks should be based on Strength then increased by
->Martial Arts skill. However, for play balance, I reccomend using the
->higher of Strength or Martial Arts skill level.

And I disagree stating that increasing the power level of an
attack is already within the rules and replacing Strength with Skill
Rating would make increased skills doubly powerful. If we allow as you
say, we'll have a busload of physads with 12 Skill Dice and 1 Strengths
doing 12S Killing Hands and rolling 12 attack dice (plus Combat Pool).

->Timing and proper breathing is extremely important in combat. A highly
->skill Martial Artist should tire less rapidly. Timing theoreticly should
->already be taken into account in the normal skill roll. I don't recall
->any exaustion rate rules in SR, but a properly trained Martial Artist
->should tire (MA skill level) times more slowly than your untrained Joe.

One of the reason (IMO) there isn't an exhaustion rate in SR is
because few combats (at least in my campaign) last longer than 30 seconds.
And the Martial Artist would probably take Athletics, which would account
for their improved resistance to exhaustion.

->I see no reason why devolping your Martial Arts training to the fullest
->shouldn't take a huge portion of you skill points. (As a side note, in
->Rolemaster, whenever I made a Martial Artist character, I spent more than
->half (something more like 2/3rds, IIRC) of the available skill points on
->Martial Arts skills.

I agree totally. }:-)

->Another way to handle Martial Arts is to make Martial Arts a seperate
->skill from Unarmed Combat which can not exceed your unarmed combat skill
->level. This is a bit of an oversimplified method for representing the
->difference between MA basics (Unarmed Combat) and MA style specific
->training/Black Belt Training (The new MA skill). Unfortunately, this
->brings up a question of how many dice to roll while using the Martial
->Arts skill. Just the Unarmed Combat or MA Skill Dice seems to few.
->Unarmed Combat+MA Skill, Unarmed Combat+(1/2 MA Skill), and MA Skill+(1/2
->Unarmed Combat) all seem to be too many.

Icky Icky Poo Poo... }:-) You can do this, I don't think I'll go
this far with it.

->On your comment:
->Perhaps a Willpower test with a target number of (10-(MA Skill /2)),
->round up, where every success counters 1 point of wound penalties.
->(works similarly to Pain Resistance except with pain resistance, to
->offset a Light Stun and A Light Physical, you need 1 level, but with this
->test, you need 2 successes.)

Let them get a special Skill of (Pain Tolerance) with a normal TN
of 4 (modified by wound modifiers, because if they resist it they won't
have any until they get hurt again). Possibly Pain Tolernace would be a
Specialization of Athletics? Anyway, for each success, reduce the penalty
of the Wound Modifiers (until they get wounded again) by one.

<snip rest>
Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 57
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:36:00 -0400
Quoting D. Ghost (dghost@****.COM):
>
> Power of unarmed attacks should be based on Strength then increased by
> Martial Arts skill. However, for play balance, I reccomend using the
> higher of Strength or Martial Arts skill level.

I think Fixer already addressed this, but I'll say it too. Both
strength and skill are already factored into damage in the SR melee system
in a reasonably decent fashion, in my opinion.

> Timing and proper breathing is extremely important in combat. A highly
> skill Martial Artist should tire less rapidly. Timing theoreticly should
> already be taken into account in the normal skill roll. I don't recall
> any exaustion rate rules in SR, but a properly trained Martial Artist
> should tire (MA skill level) times more slowly than your untrained Joe.
>
> I see no reason why devolping your Martial Arts training to the fullest
> shouldn't take a huge portion of you skill points. (As a side note, in
> Rolemaster, whenever I made a Martial Artist character, I spent more than
> half (something more like 2/3rds, IIRC) of the available skill points on
> Martial Arts skills.

Hmm. Okay, I think I see our problem. I think you and I have
fairly different ideas about skills. In my view, a martial artist doesn't
tire more slowly because he or she knows martial arts, but because the MA
is a trained athlete and very physically fit. They got that way through
the study of martial arts, but the end result is the same.
*In my opinion* (which can often be wrong) you're making an error
when you say 'martial artists have these qualities, therefore those
qualities should be confered by the martial arts skill'. Instead, I think
you should be asking, 'what other attributes and skills in addition to
Unarmed Combat are martial artists learning during their training that
could represent these qualities?'
Sure, anyone who has devoted most of their life to some pursuit should
have lots of skill points tied up in it. BUt they don't all have to be tied
up in skills labeled 'martial arts'. Some suggestions:

*All of the attributes, with the possible exception of Charisma
(Remember: Mind, Body, Spirit)
*Unarmed Combat
*Edged Weapons, for some styles
*Clubs, for some styles
*Athletics (balance, rolls, falls, endurance)
*Stealth (follows naturally from balance and grace in movement)
*Meditation
*Appropriate philosophy skill
*Etiquette(Martial Arts)
*Appropriate language skill
*Tactics

If I gave it lots of thought, I could probably come up with more,
but that's a good start. All of those skills are, IMHO, valid consequences
of devoted martial-arts training. A dedicated MA should have many of them
at some non-0 level, and some of them represent the sorts of things you're
talking about better than a new skill would, I feel.

> Note: I made several references to MA skill (Martial Arts skill). Yes
> this means I intend these rules to be only available to Martial Artists,
> not just to any shmuck with Unarmed Combat.

I shouldn't ask this, but...how do you define 'martial artist',
personally?

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 58
From: Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:10:25 -0500
Sean McCrohan wrote:

<MEGA HUGE SNIP>

> I shouldn't ask this, but...how do you define 'martial artist',
> personally?
>
> --Sean
>
> --
> Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
> Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
> Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
> http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4

Ummm personally when I make a martial artist that is zen and all of that I make
an phys ad. That way they can get the pain tolerance extra dice for stuff super
fast and whatnot. In my openion Fasa in the gener of SR has given us to tools to
make what we are all discussing withen the rules system. I think that this thread
is just looking down the wrong channel.

Grimlakin
Message no. 59
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:32:41 -0700
:->Power of unarmed attacks should be based on Strength then increased by
:->Martial Arts skill. However, for play balance, I reccomend using the
:->higher of Strength or Martial Arts skill level.
:
: And I disagree stating that increasing the power level of an
:attack is already within the rules and replacing Strength with Skill
:Rating would make increased skills doubly powerful. If we allow as you
:say, we'll have a busload of physads with 12 Skill Dice and 1 Strengths
:doing 12S Killing Hands and rolling 12 attack dice (plus Combat Pool).

You can't start with 12 skill dice. "Increased ability" adds dice to
the TEST, not to the skill level. Good thing, or raising affected skills
with karma would be a bitch...
With the proposals I've seen, adding DICE to "martial arts" would do
little good, if it were a skill the power aplied to, since it is not
rolled in tests.


Mongoose
Message no. 60
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:42:49 -0700
>Quoting Lady Jestyr (jestyr@*******.COM.AU):
>> In other words, in the case of two opposing martial artists - both using
>> the same style, both equally skilled, and equally fast - the one who's
>> stronger, has the advantage of the other.
>
> Precisely. Anyone who thinks that strength has NO effect on hand
>to hand combat is living in a fantasy world. Unfortunately, there are a lot of
>unrealistic statements that get made about the martial arts, even by some
>(bad) instructors, that promote that sort of thing.

I agree with your sentiments in general. I don't think, however, that
strength is a particularly important characteristic. Certainly strength is
an advantage, but not an overwhelming one. There are just too many factors
in combat such as footing, distance, situation, placement, adrenaline,
fear, will, weather, angles, sweat, skill, speed, reaction to think that
strength alone is critical.

Actually, I would substitute "size" for "strength" for a more
compelling
argument.

> I certainly wasn't saying that a weaker MA couldn't beat a stronger
>one. But they need to have a compensating advantage (greater skill, or
>speed, or reach, or some situational advantage), and they're probably going
>to have to land several more strikes (assuming a hard style) than the stronger
>person would. Skill multiplies the effectiveness of your strength, but
>100 * 0 is still 0. You have to have somewhere to start from.

I disagree. Judo, or Hapkido, for example, does not require strength so
much as timing. Look around the Judo nationals some time and you will find
athletes that are fit, a few that are quite strong, but mostly very fast.
And there's no bigger fist than the ground. ;-)

And as far as having somewhere to start from (strength-wise), one of the
top judo champions in Japan (which obviously has one of the best teams in
the world) was a 12 year old girl. So clearly the required strength does
not have to be large. When I went to Korea and was lucky enough to work out
with the Yongin University Judo team, their resident gold-medalist judoka
was a petite woman. Breathtakingly fast and smooth.

(Yes, I know Judo has weight classes. It did not used to, and she could
still throw some monstrously sized men. Some Koreans are big! Definitely a
troll/ork population in SR.)

Not that strength isn't a good thing, and yes, it gives you some options.
However, I have seen (and been in) contests where someone quite intent on
using superior strength has lost. I could say the same for speed or skill.

Even as far as striking goes, it isn't necessarily strength that determines
damage. The hardest kicks I've been on the receiving end of were delivered
by people with superb timing, not muscular legs. Again, look around a TKD
tournament (UC Open and Collegiate Nationals, e.g.) and you will see lots
of skinny, fast people.

>belt' is the pinacle of achievement (ranks vary by art, but usually, getting
>your black belt just means you now know enough to start playing by the REAL
>rules. You finished high school, welcome to college.)

All very true.

>of those, but you're willing to keep on going after everyone else has quit
>and gone home, you win. Sheer, bloody-minded determination - will to win,
>will to survive, whatever you care to call it - is a major factor in the

Yes! When I teach self-defense or martial arts classes, I remind the
students that the will to win is more important than the skill to win. I
keep this in mind myself -- if you think that X years of training
automatically entitles you to win a fight, you will be proven wrong very
quickly. If you're lucky, you may survive the encounter to learn your
folly. ;-)


>Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 61
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:42:54 -0400
Quoting Adam Getchell (acgetchell@*******.EDU):
> Actually, I would substitute "size" for "strength" for a more
compelling
> argument.

Good point. Mass can also be important, sometimes.

And you're right, there are lots of factors in who'll win a fight
and in whether a blow will land. But in terms of how hard an individual
blow will hit, given that it's going to land, I think there are really
two factors: strength and skill. Skill determines, first, whether you hit
in a useful spot, and second, how well you use your strength (what percentage
of your maximum possible force you actually achieve).
I saw your other post, regarding kinetic energy, btw. Agreed,
speed is a primary component of kinetic energy (along with mass). However,
we're not talking (in this context) about reaction speed, but the velocity
of the blow. And all of that movement comes from your muscles.

> I disagree. Judo, or Hapkido, for example, does not require strength so
> much as timing. Look around the Judo nationals some time and you will find
> athletes that are fit, a few that are quite strong, but mostly very fast.
> And there's no bigger fist than the ground. ;-)

Actually, hapkido is the art I practice :) Or at least, try to.

Judo techniques I find frustrating for several reasons. One of
them is probably a lack of skill on my part, but it's also that I'm
6'2" and almost 150 lbs. As you pointed out, it's possible to be light
and still be very good at judo...but you're a lot better off light and
SHORT than light and TALL. It's a major effort for me to get my hips
low enough to get the leverage I need to execute a throw without relying
on the strength I don't have :) My girlfriend, on the other hand, LOVES
the judo techniques we practice in our hapkido class. She's built for
them. (I get my revenge when we do kicks or joint-locks, where my
flexibility becomes an advantage).
Anyway, dragging this back to the original topic, speed is very
important when it comes to actually making contact with your opponent,
or keeping them from making contact with you. If you're a half second
ahead of them, you can really ruin their day. And ultimately, if your
opponent never manages to touch you, it doesn't matter much how strong
they were (except for influencing how well they suck up your attacks).
So sure, if I had to choose one or the other, I'd rather be fast than
strong.

But given the choice, I'd rather be BOTH :) I'm still of the
opinion that, assuming equal skill, the stronger combatant will land
harder, more damaging blows, WHEN AND IF he hits. The quicker opponent
will land lighter blows, faster and more often. Probably, the quicker
person will eventually win.
But {ObSR} that doesn't mean they were doing more damage, it
just means they hit more often. The power of the attacks should still,
IMHO, be based on Strength. (Accuracy and effective use of your body
are factored in via damage scaling from your successes).

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 62
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:54:38 -0400
At 12:42 PM 10/19/98 -0700, you wrote:

>I agree with your sentiments in general. I don't think, however, that
>strength is a particularly important characteristic. Certainly strength is
>an advantage, but not an overwhelming one. There are just too many factors
>in combat such as footing, distance, situation, placement, adrenaline,
>fear, will, weather, angles, sweat, skill, speed, reaction to think that
>strength alone is critical.

I'm somewhat suprised to find you taking this stance Adam. Clearly, no one
factor is overwhelmingly more important than another. But strength is very
important.

Or perhaps more precisely, the ability to utilize your strength and power.

I can only speak with any sort of authority (and limited as it is) about
boxing, so I'll limit my commentary to that subsection of martial arts with
the implication that most of what I'm saying carries over to other forms of
melee.

I've sparred with faster opponents. There's a small asian women with very
fast hands. But she doesn't scare me in the slightest, because regardless
of how quick she can deliver a blow, there's very little behind it.
There's no strength, no power, despite her excellent hand speed and overall
solid technique. She's caught me napping a few times and cracked me upside
the head once or twice; didn't do anything more than embarrass me and wake
me up.

Conversely, I've sparred with a number of guys that can clearly bench press
more than I can. Their technique isn't that bad. They had two sorts of
punchs; fast but without much power, and a slow but powerful punch. I
didn't really fear them either because either I could avoid the power punch
or ignore their jabs.

My former instructor (I'm currently looking for another one, unfortunately)
is even faster than her. And he's got loads of power. I used to fear him
because he was not only lightning fast, but had hands like bricks. He
knows how to apply his strength. And that's the key that most of my
classmates didn't have (one or two, I'd like to include myself, had figured
it out and had a decent mix of speed and power), they didn't know how to
apply their strength and power.

In amatuer boxing, speed is king because all that you need to do is to land
scoring blows (a bit like fencing really). But if you don't have power in
professional boxing, you ain't squat. If you can't deliver powerful,
punishing blows, it's very hard to win.

Look at Tyson, at Holyfield, Lennox Lewis. The top heavyweights right now
(I'm including Tyson simply because *everyone* knows him). They are all
big powerful men. 200+ pounds. But they also have fairly quick hands and
more importantly, they know how to deliver their strength.

So strength is clearly, to me anyway, a very important part of martial
arts. But what is even more important is the ability to utilize that
strength to your advantage. And to me, that's where skill and experience
come in.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 63
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:01:26 -0700
>I'm somewhat suprised to find you taking this stance Adam. Clearly, no one
>factor is overwhelmingly more important than another. But strength is very
>important.
>
>Or perhaps more precisely, the ability to utilize your strength and power.

I think we are saying the same sorts of things, but in different terms.

In Hapkido I like to teach and apply wrist locks that use a minimum of
strength possible, with most of it coming from the attacker, towards an
audience that I assume will be weaker than their attackers (i.e.
self-defense, etc.).

Therefore, I use techniques that do not require size and strength. For
example, certain wrist locks are very good against larger opponents due to
placement. For someone with strong wrists, there are good precursor
pressure points that will "release" the joint, regardless of their
strength. In some cases, a good, strong, committed attack provides
everything one might wish for. In others, a good sequence of pressure point
hits (which require proper angle and speed, but not a lot of power) buckles
their knees to drop them into the next technique.

As far as striking goes, I like Taekwondo.

Strong attackers can be slow and they usually overcommit. When they miss,
any number of openings present themselves. My preference is to counterkick
"strong" attackers.

Fast people can be dealt with ... use a good stop hit (back kick,eg), break
their rhythm (changeup attack sequence, gauge their timing and preempt it,
etc.)

The worst person to deal with is someone with good timing. Good timing
causes knockouts. Someone with good timing will roundhouse under your
counterkick, or spin hook kick just as you attack, or axe kick you as you
hesitate and/or retreat. That is someone you have to play games with
rhythm, timing, and feint, which is, I'm sure, not too different from
boxing. This is where the psychology of the encounter comes into play, as
well.

Taekwondo is often called "kinetic chess". I say this so I don't give the
impression that there's an answer to everything -- there isn't. Often the
best answers are made up on the spot.

I could repeat the same examples for Judo, with a couple of differences.
Strong people in Judo usually favor ne-waza (matwork). It is ironic that
strength actually plays less of a role on the mat than it does during
standing Judo (less effective leverage, for one). In any event, I routinely
see (and randori with) rather strong individuals on serious lifting
regimes. Actually, mass is more important here -- do not get underneath
them! Heavy people can make this mistake, lighter people have less margin
of error (there are no weight classes in practice randori).

However, the role of strength in bouts varies inversely as skill increases,
up to the best players being able to throw heavily with a fraction of their
power. Watch Judo and you'll see what I mean.

With regards to Sean's comments about martial artists not being exhausted
due to conditioning, let me give an example.

I was playing Judo with a student who is very, very strong and very fit. I
was not in his class in either catagory. I tired this person out to utter
exhaustion in matwork in about 8 minutes, and I didn't even choke or arm
bar him. ;-) The next weekend Doug swam Lake Tahoe for a fund-raiser, which
is a 14 hour swim.

So where am I going with this? Even in boxing there is the difference
between a fast hitter and a heavy hitter. In boxing there are boxers and
sluggers, and Mike Tyson is a slugger. This is an age-old debate.

But if you want to talk about transfer of energy, you are looking at either
change in momentum or kinetic energy. Change in momentum is governed by
impulse, which is force times the interaction time. Strength (force) and
speed (delta T) both play a role here.

Kinetic energy, on the other hand, being 1/2 mass times velocity squared
(in the Newtonian formulation) is strongly dependent upon velocity.

The arm can be modelled as a four-bar linkage between hip and wrist
(leaving out finger joints), with input torques at all joints (hip,
shoulder, elbow, wrist). The final velocity of the fist depends upon the
angular velocity of the various joints/linkages. If you define strength in
terms of power and weight lifted, you a talking slow-twitch muscle which
does not aid greatly in angular velocity, but does aid in torque (which
translates into force). If you define speed in terms of reactions, you are
referring to fast twitch muscles with does govern angular velocity, and
hence, impulse. The exact details of course depend on biomechanical
parameters such as muscle attachment points, motion path, length of various
limbs, etc. (Or you could approximate it with the above 4-bar linkage model
and plug numbers into a program.)

So, define your terms, plug away, and you'll get results that are not
outside our experiences if you use a force meter and motion tracking.

>So strength is clearly, to me anyway, a very important part of martial
>arts. But what is even more important is the ability to utilize that
>strength to your advantage. And to me, that's where skill and experience
>come in.

I agree. But, (and there's always one, isn't there? ;-) it does not take a
lot of strength to do a pressure point tap, finger/wrist/elbow/joint lock,
or throw (uchimata comes to mind). When I "intake" someone's punch and
counter, I'm usually getting them to hit themselves on my fist, rather than
the reverse. I have seen/felt Aikido and Hapkido that is so good it looks
fake because the motions involved were so slight and had such little power
(as long as you aren't the person getting thrown!).

There are techniques where strength is good (such as propping sleeve
throw). At the same time, I can do a shoulder wheel with some pretty big
people, and I do not use strength that much to get them there.

>Erik J.
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 64
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:13:49 +1000
Adam Getchell writes:
> Therefore, I use techniques that do not require size and strength. For
> example, certain wrist locks are very good against larger opponents due to
> placement. For someone with strong wrists, there are good precursor
> pressure points that will "release" the joint, regardless of their
> strength. In some cases, a good, strong, committed attack provides
> everything one might wish for. In others, a good sequence of
> pressure point
> hits (which require proper angle and speed, but not a lot of
> power) buckles
> their knees to drop them into the next technique.

Relying on pressure points seems a tad overrated to me, Adam...

RL example: My brother is a black belt (gets his second dan next year, I
think) in Tang Soo Tao karate. They teach various pressure points, hold and
throws in addition to the standard kicks and punches. When he was being
taught them, he found that the pressure points were not very effective on
him: he could feel them a bit, but not to the extent he should have. He then
tried them on me, and again I couldn't feel them. But he knew how to do
them, because he could do it correctly on the other members of his class. It
turns out that both my brother and I have the main pressure points deeper
under the skin and slightly shifted, and that this is a moderately common
thing (about 1% of the population, I think... it's been about 5 years).

My brother personally feels that it's better to rely on speed rather than
anything else...

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 65
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:57:23 -0400
At 04:01 PM 10/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>I'm somewhat suprised to find you taking this stance Adam. Clearly, no one
>>factor is overwhelmingly more important than another. But strength is very
>>important.
>>
>>Or perhaps more precisely, the ability to utilize your strength and power.
>
>I think we are saying the same sorts of things, but in different terms.

I'm not so sure; you seem to talking a lot more about the importance of
technique and downplaying the importance of strength and power. I contend
that it is technique that allows the full benefits of strength to be
realized, and perhaps I'm reading right past you, but I don't see you
arguing the same point.

>In Hapkido I like to teach and apply wrist locks that use a minimum of
>strength possible, with most of it coming from the attacker, towards an
>audience that I assume will be weaker than their attackers (i.e.
>self-defense, etc.).

Locks and pressure points, I don't know much about, I'll admit. But they
strike me as being singularly in-effective against an opponent with any
real skill in any martial art. Highly effective against brawlers and
non-fighters though. But that's just my impression.

>Strong attackers can be slow and they usually overcommit. When they miss,
>any number of openings present themselves. My preference is to counterkick
>"strong" attackers.

Key word in the this paragraph is "can." Yes, it's even a stereotype, that
the big strong fighters are also rather slow and that small wirey fighters
are the ones with lighting quick hands and/or feet.

Clearly not true. I've seen some 200+ pound fighters with hands that are
nothing but blurs they're so bloody fast, and they've got the technique
that allows them to deliver all the power their 200+ pound bodies can
provide. These guys are just utterly punishing.

Against the slow but strong stereotype, clearly the option is to
counterattack as you suggest. But big and strong does not always indicate
slow.

>Fast people can be dealt with ... use a good stop hit (back kick,eg), break
>their rhythm (changeup attack sequence, gauge their timing and preempt it,
>etc.)

Agreed. My own favorite personal trick against a quicker boxer is to
switch to a southpaw stance; it tends to throw them off and inject some
doubt into their heads. 9 out of 10 boxers simply aren't able to switch
stances. This also works some against flat out better boxers sometimes; I
personally like to come out southpaw, work for a bit, then switch to a
normal stance and really go to work.

>The worst person to deal with is someone with good timing. Good timing
>causes knockouts. Someone with good timing will roundhouse under your
>counterkick, or spin hook kick just as you attack, or axe kick you as you
>hesitate and/or retreat. That is someone you have to play games with
>rhythm, timing, and feint, which is, I'm sure, not too different from
>boxing. This is where the psychology of the encounter comes into play, as
>well.

Agreed; good timing is most often seen in counterattacks, because
countering requires seeing the attack, reacting to it and launching the
counter before their attack is even finished.

>However, the role of strength in bouts varies inversely as skill increases,
>up to the best players being able to throw heavily with a fraction of their
>power. Watch Judo and you'll see what I mean.

Perhaps with a throw, that may be true, where technique becomes all
important. But from my boxing perspective, and I imagine it holds true for
all punches and kicks, strength is very important. I don't give a damn how
fast you can punch or kick me, if you aren't doing any damage, I'm going to
wade into your flurry and crack you upside the head.

And if you don't have sufficient strength (which may be minimal), your
perfect technique on your throw ain't going to mean much.

>I was playing Judo with a student who is very, very strong and very fit. I
>was not in his class in either catagory. I tired this person out to utter
>exhaustion in matwork in about 8 minutes, and I didn't even choke or arm
>bar him. ;-) The next weekend Doug swam Lake Tahoe for a fund-raiser, which
>is a 14 hour swim.

It's all about cross-training. Your body will adjust to it's workload. I
would expect a basketball player, who runs miles playing a full 48 minute
game and is in excellent shape, to not be able to handle swimming major
distance or to even run a marathon well. It's a different set of stresses
than the body has been trained to handle. So that's not terribly
surpising. One of the basic tenets of weightlifting is that the mind and
the muscle adapts to your workload, but only to the minimum it has to. So
in order to keep getting bigger and/or stronger (*not* always the same
thing), you have to switch up your workouts.

>So where am I going with this? Even in boxing there is the difference
>between a fast hitter and a heavy hitter. In boxing there are boxers and
>sluggers, and Mike Tyson is a slugger. This is an age-old debate.

Actually in boxing it's more about being a boxer versus a brawler. A boxer
is someone that likes to use technique and maintain some range, while a
brawler likes the clutches and getting in close.

Oscar de la Hoya and Roy Jones Jr. are excellent boxers who can also brawl.
Tyson was a ferocious brawler who could also do some boxing. You can see
it in how they fought. Myself, I'm not a big brawler and I hate clutches,
but it's something I work on anyway and seem to have some proficiency in.
Let me practice the sweet science that is boxing thank you.

>>So strength is clearly, to me anyway, a very important part of martial
>>arts. But what is even more important is the ability to utilize that
>>strength to your advantage. And to me, that's where skill and experience
>>come in.
>
>I agree. But, (and there's always one, isn't there? ;-) it does not take a
>lot of strength to do a pressure point tap, finger/wrist/elbow/joint lock,
>or throw (uchimata comes to mind). When I "intake" someone's punch and
>counter, I'm usually getting them to hit themselves on my fist, rather than
>the reverse. I have seen/felt Aikido and Hapkido that is so good it looks
>fake because the motions involved were so slight and had such little power
>(as long as you aren't the person getting thrown!).

But even those seemingly effortless surely are an example of proper and
precise application of power? To me, again, I don't care how good you are
technically or how quick you are, if you little to no power to back it up,
you can't do dick to me.

But perhaps this is simply the difference in mindset between a boxer and a
more traditional martial artist. My goal as a boxer is to hurt my
opponent, to punish them, to knock them out. The martial artist? I'm not
sure, but the attitude doesn't seem to be about inflicting pain as it is to
disable the opponent. What is your mindset while fighting Adam? I'm
trying to hurt my opponent, to break their nose, et al. I don't see that
as a martial artist's attitude, and perhaps that explains the conflict we
have over the importance of strength. It takes a lot more power to KO
someone than is required to simply throw someone.

>There are techniques where strength is good (such as propping sleeve
>throw). At the same time, I can do a shoulder wheel with some pretty big
>people, and I do not use strength that much to get them there.

Ah, but I would say that you probably do. I'll bet that technique being
the same, some tiny frail woman, regardless of her age, could not
successfully pull the same moves that you could, because you have more
strength to apply to the endeavor.

How does this apply to SR? To go back to David B's idea, I would contend
that Strength is still the proper attribute from which to calculate damage
inflicted.

Erik J.
Message no. 66
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:36:44 -0500
On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 17:07:09 -0500 "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM> writes:
<SNIP>
Rather than reply to any specific post, I'm going to post a re-take on MA
in SR. I hope no one minds. :)

This isn't perfect but hopefully it's at least a good foundantion ...

>Okay, my take on things in a SR context:

Common MA skills as they stand now:
ACTIVE SKILLS (Modified from Sean's post):
-Unarmed Combat: Represents basic movements.
Specializations: Subduing Combat, or by Attack Type (See Below).
-Edged Weapons, Clubs, Cyber Implant Weaponry, Throwing Weapons, Pole
Arms, Projectiles, Whips: For those styles with weapon katas
-Martial Arts (Willpower): Advanced techniques.
Specializations*: Hardening, Flowing Water, Zen or by Attack Type (See
Below).
If the Martial Arts style includes weapons, each weapon type (Edged,
Clubs,
Cyber Implant, throwing, etc ...) is also available as a sperate
specialization.
*Only those specializations approriate for the specific style are
available.
Hardening & Flowing Water merely act as rationales for improving Body &
Quickness above the standard max (Ie, not the x1.5 max). For every 3
levels of the specialization (or general skill if no specialization), the
character is allowed to pay normal karma cost (ie, 3x new stat level) to
raise the stat one point past the normal racial max (6 for a human), upto
1.5 times the normal max (9 for a human). I have no idea what to do with
Zen so for now at least, it remains unchanged.
-Athletics: Martial Artists just tend to be fit. :)
-Stealth
-Ettiquette (Specialization in Martial Arts)
-Instruction
Would Meditation be an active skill? I would say yes and put it under
Willpower.

KNOWLEDGE SKILLS:
-MA Philosphy (Intelligence) Ya know, the spirtual stuff. ;) Must
specify Style; Determines which Specializations are available for
characters. No Specialization may exceed the MA Philosphy skill*.
*Yes, I know this isn't realistic. This a game macjanic to facilitate
this next section.
Also, sometimes a language related to the style is learned to some degree
(For example, in my class we say "Attention", "Bow", "On
Guard", etc, in
Korean)

learning a second (or third, or fourth ..) MA Style:
To keep things simple:
-Unarmed Combat, Athletics & Martial Arts are purchased once and shared
by all MA style.
-MA Philosophy is purchased seperately and paid for in full for each MA
style.
-When using a Specialization, use the highest MA Philosphy Skill that
allows that technique to determine max rating.

>Power of unarmed attacks should be based on Strength then increased by
>Martial Arts skill. However, for play balance, I reccomend using the
>higher of Strength or Martial Arts skill level.

Let's divide this into types of Attacks:
Strikes (Using the Upper body... Fists, elbows, etc...)
Kicks
Holds
Throws (includes all throws & sweeps.)

Power level for the attacks are (Based on David B.'s Post):
Strikes: (Q+S)/2
Kicks: S
Holds: (B+S)/2
Throws: Q (If you don't think Quick would be appropriate, what about your
*opponent's* body stat?)

Then, You roll two skills:
One: Unarmed Combat behaves as normally.
Two: MA Style (Or appropriate specialization). Combat pool (or any other
pool) Cannot be added to this roll. Every two successes against a target
number equal the target number for the Unarmed Combat test raises the
Power of the attack by 1.

(Yes, this means I still maintain that MA skill is not adequetely
represented in the SR Combat system.)

>Timing and proper breathing is extremely important in combat. A
>highly skill Martial Artist should tire less rapidly. Timing
>theoreticly should already be taken into account in the normal skill
>roll. I don't recall any exaustion rate rules in SR, but a properly
>trained Martial Artist should tire (MA skill level) times more slowly
>than your untrained Joe.

As Sean(?) suggested, repalce MA skill level in the above paragraph with

>I see no reason why devolping your Martial Arts training to the
>fullest shouldn't take a huge portion of you skill points. (As a side
>note, in Rolemaster, whenever I made a Martial Artist character, I
>spent more than half (something more like 2/3rds, IIRC) of the
>available skill points on Martial Arts skills.

<SNIP>

>Note: I made several references to MA skill (Martial Arts skill). Yes
>this means I intend these rules to be only available to Martial
>Artists, not just to any shmuck with Unarmed Combat.

Sean: I define "martial artist" as someone who goes above and beyond
normal combat training. This could be a student of Kung-Fu, a Fencer, a
Marine, etc...

Note: I also consider the distinction between a Martial Artist and Joe
Schmoe to be a matter of dedication and training, not a matter of genetic
chance. This is why I don't want to leave exceptional martial arts
ability to the realm of PhysAds.

On that note, I guess it should be stated that I wouldn't reccomend
allowing PhysAd Improved ability dice to be purchased for MA Style.

Lastly, I hope I gave everybody credit when I based something off their
posts ... IF not, Ooops, sorry. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 67
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:18:21 -0700
>Relying on pressure points seems a tad overrated to me, Adam...

When you've seen and felt a 3 point knockout you will probably change your
mind. I don't think I can explain it any better, and it's not something
people tend to believe until the ground comes up and hits them.

Yes, I was skeptical about it, but I'm personally confident in the efficacy
of pressure points. No, I don't go for them specifically -- there are
plenty of other techniques. But if it's there (and it usually is), it is
another player to the game to add. That's why I study Judo, Taekwondo, and
Hapkido specifically, and any other martial arts I can find. I like to have
an arsenal of techniques. But, those techniques have to be polished until
they really work, or they are worse than useless.

>.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 68
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:41:34 -0700
>Locks and pressure points, I don't know much about, I'll admit. But they
>strike me as being singularly in-effective against an opponent with any
>real skill in any martial art. Highly effective against brawlers and
>non-fighters though. But that's just my impression.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then, because that's not my experience. If
you have a chance, attend one of Wally Jay's seminars. It may be an
eye-opener.

>Against the slow but strong stereotype, clearly the option is to
>counterattack as you suggest. But big and strong does not always indicate
>slow.

Agreed. I have been thrown by too many large, fast people to ever have this
illusion.

>Perhaps with a throw, that may be true, where technique becomes all
>important. But from my boxing perspective, and I imagine it holds true for
>all punches and kicks, strength is very important. I don't give a damn how
>fast you can punch or kick me, if you aren't doing any damage, I'm going to
>wade into your flurry and crack you upside the head.

Yes, Taekwondo has "trembling shock" to score a point. A kick must cause
body displacement to count. But I have met and sparred with a lot of people
with extremely hard kicks that are not weight lifters, and do not have
particularly muscular legs. You cannot just wade into their kicks and
remain conscious.

>And if you don't have sufficient strength (which may be minimal), your
>perfect technique on your throw ain't going to mean much.

I beg to differ. There are several throws, uki-otoshi, sasae
tskurikomiashi, deashi barai, okuriashi barai, just to name a few, that
require very little to no strength, but all timing. There is a very nice
counterthrow modified from seoinage where the opponent literally throws
themselves by grabbing onto your lapel as you throw them (and it is
embarrassing to be thrown by your own grip).

>But even those seemingly effortless surely are an example of proper and
>precise application of power? To me, again, I don't care how good you are
>technically or how quick you are, if you little to no power to back it up,
>you can't do dick to me.

I'll have to disagree here, too. Experience judo and aikido before you make
this statement.

>But perhaps this is simply the difference in mindset between a boxer and a
>more traditional martial artist. My goal as a boxer is to hurt my
>opponent, to punish them, to knock them out. The martial artist? I'm not
>sure, but the attitude doesn't seem to be about inflicting pain as it is to
>disable the opponent. What is your mindset while fighting Adam? I'm

If they come at me, I am going to put them down so they will not get back
up. Hapkido has many "finishing" techniques to ensure this. If, heaven
forbid, I have to use violence, I intend to be unequivocal about it.

And pain is a wonderful tool to lead an opponent into your technique.
Again, Wally Jay's seminars are most instructive. You can set someone up
for a very nasty technique if you *almost* break their finger. If you break
it, it loses that usefulness.

>trying to hurt my opponent, to break their nose, et al. I don't see that
>as a martial artist's attitude, and perhaps that explains the conflict we
>have over the importance of strength. It takes a lot more power to KO
>someone than is required to simply throw someone.

Matches in judo are decided on the basis of ippon (full point), wazari
(half point), plus kokas and yukos. A match ends at ippon or two wazaris.
Ippon represents symbolic death. Symbolic, because it takes very little
modification to turn the throw into a lethal technique. Judo has a firm
foundation in jujutsu, and jujutsu was a warrior art.

>Ah, but I would say that you probably do. I'll bet that technique being
>the same, some tiny frail woman, regardless of her age, could not
>successfully pull the same moves that you could, because you have more
>strength to apply to the endeavor.

I guess you haven't met Dr. Susan Link, 100 lbs, does some very nasty
throws all the time. Actually, she isn't what you call frail, either, but
certainly doesn't have the strength of your average weightlifter.

>Erik J.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 69
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:40:43 -0400
I have been trying to avoid the martial arts debate since it
started, but in game terms I believe I have a 'grey area' solution that
should satisfy all parties. Strength, as described in SR3, is 'what the
character's muscles can do.' It doesn't say this is pure applied force or
if this is speed. In my interpretation, strength is the ability to apply
force where you need it, when you need it. Whether this is done by speed
or pure outright brute force is merely personal style.
Examples: Two characters, both with Strength 3. One is lean and
fast, the other is slow but heavily built. Who's stronger? Neither. Do
they fight the same? Hell no. The lean character uses speed to do his
damage while the heavy character relies on 'power punches'. What might
set these two individuals apart is their Athletics skill, which can be
used to augment Strength in most situations.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 70
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:23:59 -0600
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Erik Jameson wrote:
/
/ >In Hapkido I like to teach and apply wrist locks that use a minimum of
/ >strength possible, with most of it coming from the attacker, towards an
/ >audience that I assume will be weaker than their attackers (i.e.
/ >self-defense, etc.).
/
/ Locks and pressure points, I don't know much about, I'll admit. But they
/ strike me as being singularly in-effective against an opponent with any
/ real skill in any martial art. Highly effective against brawlers and
/ non-fighters though. But that's just my impression.

Pressure points are as effective as the skill of the person applying
them :) True, your average martial artist will save them for the
unskilled brawler, but 4th or 5th degree martial artist can use them
very effectively regardless of the skill of his/her opponent.

And joint locks are very useful, even against a skilled opponent. My
teacher teaches us how to use joint locks vs just about every attack.
They attack, you catch the strike, you apply the lock and open them up,
and then you go shopping. Most of the locks are wrist locks because
you're catching your opponents fist.

And then there's nerve pinches. They're pretty much only useful
against your grappler, unless you're very, very skilled. (I hate
working on nerve pinches with my wife, because she is so good at
applying them :)

My point is, never discount a technique. If you do, you're going to
find yourself in a lot of pain if someone uses that technique on you.

/ How does this apply to SR? To go back to David B's idea, I would contend
/ that Strength is still the proper attribute from which to calculate damage
/ inflicted.

Agreed. The idea failed the litmus test miserably. Back to the
drawing board :)

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 71
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:48:53 -0400
At 11:41 PM 10/19/98 -0700, you wrote:

>Yes, Taekwondo has "trembling shock" to score a point.

I'll get back to this in a moment...

<SNIPPEROO!>
>If they come at me, I am going to put them down so they will not get back
>up. Hapkido has many "finishing" techniques to ensure this. If, heaven
>forbid, I have to use violence, I intend to be unequivocal about it.
<SNIPPERAGE!>
>Matches in judo are decided on the basis of ippon (full point), wazari
>(half point), plus kokas and yukos. A match ends at ippon or two wazaris.
>Ippon represents symbolic death. Symbolic, because it takes very little
>modification to turn the throw into a lethal technique. Judo has a firm
>foundation in jujutsu, and jujutsu was a warrior art.

I think herein lies our fundamental difference, at least between Adam and
myself.

Score a point? What's that? Okay, I'm being pedantic, but boxing isn't
about scoring points, it's about punishing your opponent, inflicting
maximum damage.

Even in amateur boxing, where scoring is tantamount and the headgear and
limitation to 4 rounds makes KO's and TKO's unlikely, the goal isn't to
score points, it's to land scoring blows, a huge difference in attitude.
You'll see lots of non-scoring blows thrown and landed, many of which are
for the dual purpose of setting up scoring blows *and* for punishing the
opponent. I imagine it is similar in full-contact TKD and such, but think
about how you phrased your sentence; it betrays the subtle difference in
attitude I think.

And "if I have to use violence" is a mindset sort of alien to the boxer;
what we do in the ring *is* violence! It's not an art or a philosophy,
it's all about combat, about violence. The boxer is like the brawler in
this aspect, we aren't out there to score points, we're out there to hurt
someone, because that's how we win.

That all said, let me try to relate this back to Shadowrun...okay, I'm
failing at the moment...other than to say having engaged in unarmed combat,
and the complex dance that it is, I no longer have a problem with the
absraction of melee that is the rule for Shadowrun (which I did have before
I began boxing).

I'm not a game geek so I'm not familiar with lots of other systems
(although I used to be), but all of the other systems that have attempted
to model different martial arts have generally been too complicated and/or
take too long to execute (too many die, too many charts). To me, a
sparring match is a complex dance of movement, jabs, ducks and slips,
crosses and head bobs. Sometimes nothing happens for long seconds as my
opponent and I will move around each other and size each other up;
sometimes only a few jabs will be thrown, somtimes it's an all out
offensive flurry.

In other words, a real fight is far too complex to be accurately modeled in
any game system because far too much is happening; a realistic model would
be too complex and take far too much time. About the only thing I could
think of would be a game that is nothing but unarmed combat, a bit like
those fantasy baseball games which attempt via statistics printed on cars
to model real baseball. Fantasy Combat would be like that; pick a style,
pick an arsenal of moves, then roll the dice and follow the rules to have a
match.

But in the course of a RPG, that would be far too much.

Erik J.

Who will be sending his unsubscribe notice within hours...
Message no. 72
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:11:35 -0700
>And "if I have to use violence" is a mindset sort of alien to the boxer;
>what we do in the ring *is* violence! It's not an art or a philosophy,
>it's all about combat, about violence. The boxer is like the brawler in
>this aspect, we aren't out there to score points, we're out there to hurt
>someone, because that's how we win.

This point is well taken. I have always had healthy respect for boxers,
because they train to both dish out and take pain at a level far higher
than many martial artists are comfortable with. Hapkido can be a "not nice"
martial art, but we try to avoid confrontation when possible. We have to
specifically find ways to train hard with high intensity. Boxing just does
it, that's what it's about. But Hapkido does have preemptive striking.

The will to win is more important than the skill to win, and boxing (and
other contact sports such as hard tournament judo) teach this more
effectively than the average martial art. Hard fought matches in Judo and
Taekwondo is often the most valuable training time. This is a
generalization ... of course ... many instructors do teach handling pain.

As far as Shadowrun goes, the comment about high willpower is spot on. If I
really wanted to make some game suggestions, I would say Athletics
(Endurance) goes well as a complementary skill in martial arts if a fight
lasts longer than 15 seconds. Yet another advantage to boxers who train to
go for 10-15 rounds ...
>
>That all said, let me try to relate this back to Shadowrun...okay, I'm
>failing at the moment...other than to say having engaged in unarmed combat,
>and the complex dance that it is, I no longer have a problem with the
>absraction of melee that is the rule for Shadowrun (which I did have before
>I began boxing).

I tried hard to make martial arts rules, but they got too complicated.

>But in the course of a RPG, that would be far too much.

Probably. But one can always try.

>Erik J.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 73
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:34:50 -0400
At 01:11 PM 10/20/98 , you wrote:

>>That all said, let me try to relate this back to Shadowrun...okay, I'm
>>failing at the moment...other than to say having engaged in unarmed combat,
>>and the complex dance that it is, I no longer have a problem with the
>>absraction of melee that is the rule for Shadowrun (which I did have before
>>I began boxing).
>
>I tried hard to make martial arts rules, but they got too complicated.

As I'm sure that a lot of people on the list have at one point or another,
I'm working on my own set of rules. It must be the biggest section of SR
that House Rules were ever made for! But I'm not getting deterred from the
comlpications thing. The only problem is that if its printed out, I'm up to
about 80-90 pages right now. It'll make a pretty good sourcebook.

But the nice thing is that I've kept the rules as simple as I could.
They're only about 5 pages, plus another 5 for creating different styles.
The rest is just examples of different stuff that you can do. Now when I
finally get it done, I will of course let the list know. Also like al ot of
other people on the list. :)

Sommers
Homepage comming soon!
Message no. 74
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:04:45 -0400
At 10:11 AM 10/20/98 -0700, you wrote:

>This point is well taken. I have always had healthy respect for boxers,
>because they train to both dish out and take pain at a level far higher
>than many martial artists are comfortable with.

Sometimes I wonder if that's because there's something wrong with boxers
mentally (myself included). But considering I'm not otherwise a masochist,
perhaps not.

>The will to win is more important than the skill to win, and boxing (and
>other contact sports such as hard tournament judo) teach this more
>effectively than the average martial art.

Teaches it, yes. But that will to win, to survive is something that has to
exist in the first place. Not every fighter or athlete has the "heart" to
win. Look at any pro athlete regardless of sport. Some are immensely
talented, but lack the will to win. Others lack in talent, but have the
fire and desire to overcome all odds.

>As far as Shadowrun goes, the comment about high willpower is spot on. If I
>really wanted to make some game suggestions, I would say Athletics
>(Endurance) goes well as a complementary skill in martial arts if a fight
>lasts longer than 15 seconds.

Something to that affect would make sense. In Shadowrun, it would be rare
to find a fight lasting five Combat Turns or more, but in those cases, I'd
agree with you that Endurance *and* Willpower would come into affect in the
fight.

>Yet another advantage to boxers who train to
>go for 10-15 rounds ...

To some anyway...not necessarily to all heavyweights, who seem afraid of
hard endurance training because it might cause them to lose muscle and
mass...but the lower weight classes, I'll go with you on that one.
Especially those psychopathic flyweights; hundreds of punches thrown round
after round...

>I tried hard to make martial arts rules, but they got too complicated.

Exactly. Accurate modeling of martial arts is just too complicated; far
better in my ever so humble opinion to try to abstract it, much as
Shadowrun has done. This isn't to say that SR combat couldn't benefit from
some added specificity and detail, but I think it would suffer from too
much detail.

>>But in the course of a RPG, that would be far too much.
>
>Probably. But one can always try.

Do or do not. There is no try.

Sorry, Yoda possessed me for a moment there...

But try, try away and see what turns up! I know David B. is playing with
all sorts of melee ideas right now...

Erik J.

After lunch, bye bye RN!
Message no. 75
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:50:22 -0600
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Erik Jameson wrote:
/
/ >Probably. But one can always try.
/
/ Do or do not. There is no try.
/
/ Sorry, Yoda possessed me for a moment there...
/
/ But try, try away and see what turns up! I know David B. is playing with
/ all sorts of melee ideas right now...

If nothing else the process of elimination will create something :)

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 76
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:08:17 +0000
Not to respond to anyone specifically, but why does this thread
/always/ turn into an off-topic rant about [fill in favourite martial
arts' name] vs [other martial arts] with loads of references to
specific moves called [insert (im)possible name here] being the best
to take someone out according to [insert M.A. guru's name]?

It's just like the ammo discussions, before you know more than half
the people are talking about real life guns and calibres, instead of
discussing rules.
And I'm not talking about those who use real-life examples to support
a suggestion for a rule BTW.

Like Feral said in Shadowtech: "Shop Talk!"

To anyone out there still trying to make something workable for SR,
good luck. I personally tried incorporating rules from Rolemaster and
Runequest, but for some reason it didn't work out. Except for the
skill vs. skill tests in Runequest nothing really worked.
It will be interesting to see this 90 page supplement though.


Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 77
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:48:32 -0400
>Not to respond to anyone specifically, but why does this thread
>/always/ turn into an off-topic rant about [fill in favourite martial
>arts' name] vs [other martial arts] with loads of references to
>specific moves called [insert (im)possible name here] being the best
>to take someone out according to [insert M.A. guru's name]?
>
>It's just like the ammo discussions, before you know more than half
>the people are talking about real life guns and calibres, instead of
>discussing rules.
>And I'm not talking about those who use real-life examples to support
>a suggestion for a rule BTW.

More on this later.
>
>Like Feral said in Shadowtech: "Shop Talk!"
>
>To anyone out there still trying to make something workable for SR,
>good luck. I personally tried incorporating rules from Rolemaster and
>Runequest, but for some reason it didn't work out. Except for the
>skill vs. skill tests in Runequest nothing really worked.
>It will be interesting to see this 90 page supplement though.

Shadowrun cannot have a detailed martial arts system because of the lack
of a hit location system. While you may be able to incapacitate an arm
for a few seconds with a nerve pinch in real life how would you represent
this in the game, apply a wound that applies to the arm only? But then
you would have to apply those damage modifiers only to tests that used
that arm in some way. The game completely ignores the concept of pain as
someone pointed out earlier, there are many things you can do to an
opponent that cause pain but do no actual damage, and these are things
you would do to acquire a short term advantage and set up other moves. Sr
also ignores exhaustion eliminating the usefulness of working the body in
Boxing where the punches you throw cause little damage but over time
build up and make it difficult to breathe because your stomach muscles
are so badly bruised causing you to tire. Also combat takes long enough
anyway making it even more complicated wouldn't be much of a help, who
would want to spend whole gaming sessions resolving a barroom brawl?

So that brings us to the point, what is the problem with Sr's meele
combat system? Well it's the allowing a specialization that has no
apparent drawback. Right now you can specialize in Martial Arts but what
does that mean? The way the game is set up you can't make the
specialization a maneuver as there is little way to give bonuses and
penalties to maneuvers within the rules, you also can't make it a Style
as we can't even get the people here who study the same style to always
agree on what that style focuses on.

What can we do to correct the problem? Well, that's simple change the
specialization. Look at what you can do whith any meele skill, you can
make an attack, a counter attack, block, dodge, grapple, throw, and
disarm an armed opponent. Make each of those actions a specialization,
then you can call your style whatever you want and it only matters for
Role playing purposes. The effects of your specialization are obvious as
well as it's drawbacks. For a fully fleshed out version of this that also
includes a few other variations to the base rules to clear up a few other
problems with Sr3's Meele Combat system (such as the Speed vs Skill
problem that came up when 3rd Ed came out) look at Mike Chartiers web
Site at
http://www.mindspring.com/~mefron/sr3

Steve
Message no. 78
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:44:23 -0500
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:08:17 +0000 Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
writes:
>Not to respond to anyone specifically, but why does this thread
>/always/ turn into an off-topic rant about [fill in favourite martial
>arts' name] vs [other martial arts] with loads of references to
>specific moves called [insert (im)possible name here] being the best
>to take someone out according to [insert M.A. guru's name]?

For every move, there is a countermove. (And for every countermove,
there is a countercountermove... ;) I can't recall who said that, but
it's true (IMO/AFAIK). What it basicly comes down to (and what I saw in
the discusions) is:
1) Certain moves are more effective against certain types of opponents.
2) Certain moves are more effective against certain attacks.
3) Certain moves compliment a given individual's abilities better than
others.

For example, someone with low strength might study Judo/Jujitsu where
strength is less of a factor than Tae Kwon Do or Boxing.

Where as someone with a large body mass (but not so large that he/she is
encumbered by it) might be better suited for Sumo or Wrestling.

Then someone with raw strength might best pursue Tae Kwon Do or Boxing.

(Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that these characteristics
imply/require the corresponding Martial Art or vice versa. Rather, I am
saying that these would be some logical choices.)

<SNIP>
>I personally tried incorporating rules from Rolemaster and
>Runequest, but for some reason it didn't work out. Except for the
>skill vs. skill tests in Runequest nothing really worked.
>It will be interesting to see this 90 page supplement though.

I tried the same too. Do you mean the core Rolemaster rules or the ones
in the Martial Arts Companion for the Rolemaster Standard System (RMSS)?
The problem is that Rolemasters skill development system is heavily based
on certain skills be more difficult than others as well as certain skills
being easier for certain types of charcters to develop than others.

It probably wouldn't be /too/ difficult to port the RM system *BUT*, a
lot of the skills would infringe on PhysAd territory. For example, How
would you translate Adrenal Defense, Adrenal Toughness, Blind Fighting,
or any of the Chi skills? Most likely you wouldn't. I may try a direct
conversion and see what happens.

NOTE: Rolemaster does not have a particularly detailed hit location
system, however, their Martial Arts system is, in my personal opinion,
execelent without being cheesy.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 79
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:34:53 +0000
and thus did D. Ghost speak on 21 Oct 98 at 17:44:

[snip]
> For every move, there is a countermove. (And for every countermove,
> there is a countercountermove... ;) I can't recall who said that, but
> it's true (IMO/AFAIK). What it basicly comes down to (and what I saw in
> the discusions) is:
> 1) Certain moves are more effective against certain types of opponents.
> 2) Certain moves are more effective against certain attacks.
> 3) Certain moves compliment a given individual's abilities better than
> others.
> For example, someone with low strength might study Judo/Jujitsu where
> strength is less of a factor than Tae Kwon Do or Boxing.
> Where as someone with a large body mass (but not so large that he/she is
> encumbered by it) might be better suited for Sumo or Wrestling.
> Then someone with raw strength might best pursue Tae Kwon Do or Boxing.

Allright, well to be honest I don't know anything about martial arts,
but that didn't stop me reading the mails so far. What you suggest
above would be along the lines of making a list of martial arts (or
just styles of HtH combat) and a list of possible moves. Give each MA
a list of moves (highly simplified of course).

To differentiate between the different attack modes you could make a
list of moves vs moves and link certain bonuses and penalties to
each combination (e.g. move "leg sweep" gets +2 dice on attack when
defender tries a "head kick" move).
Alternatively you could simplify this by simply giving bonuses and
penalties for certain MA combination fights (e.g. karate vs. boxing
gives +1 to one of them and -1 to the other).
If I remember correctly there was an article with something similar
in a Best of Dragon Issue once with only karate moves. The year must
have been around 1979-80 (yeah, I'm that old :P ).

To link in attributes: assign one, two or three attributes to each
style of MA and give a starting character a skill based on
the average of his skill plus the relevant attributes with a maximum
of skillpoints assigned to that skill. I like the idea of willpower
being very important, but then again WP is important for learning
nearly everything at an above average level. You could say that
increases in skill above the character's WP cost 1.5 times karma, so
something similar.

> I tried the same too. Do you mean the core Rolemaster rules or the ones
> in the Martial Arts Companion for the Rolemaster Standard System (RMSS)?
> The problem is that Rolemasters skill development system is heavily based
> on certain skills be more difficult than others as well as certain skills
> being easier for certain types of charcters to develop than others.

The latter, shame that I sold those a few years ago...

> It probably wouldn't be /too/ difficult to port the RM system *BUT*, a
> lot of the skills would infringe on PhysAd territory. For example, How
> would you translate Adrenal Defense, Adrenal Toughness, Blind Fighting,
> or any of the Chi skills? Most likely you wouldn't. I may try a direct
> conversion and see what happens.

Indeed, I didn't, plus the end result slowed down game-play too
much. I don't remember exactly how I did it, but it was too
complicated.

> NOTE: Rolemaster does not have a particularly detailed hit location
> system, however, their Martial Arts system is, in my personal opinion,
> excellent without being cheesy.

I tend to agree with that statement, but I don't like RM too much for
lots of other reasons.


Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 80
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 09:12:47 +1100
An alternitive to the optional rule I thought up yesterday, what if you need
an equal or higher fighting skill in order to get the reach advantage?. In
other words, if the other guy's a better fighter, he'll just slip inside
your weapon swing, the reach modifier is negated. If the two skills are
equal or the troll with the axe is better, then reach advantages apply as
normal. This has the advantage that it is easy and requires less dice rolls
and rules lawyering.
Message no. 81
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:36:39 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: waylex1 <waylex1@**************.co.uk>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, March 02, 2000 5:54 AM
Subject: Re: insiders: cannon companion due?


>> > It's nice,...it discusses (among other things) a nice looking Martial
Arts
>> > system.
>>
>> Which, as we have the rules for it ourselves already, got HUGELY run
through
>> the extreme mechanics tonight. Some stuff even we wouldn't put into a
normal
>> game of ours. Oh yes, hell and brimstone having nothing to the fun the
>> players and GM's will have with this stuff.
>
>I am always suspect about MA in games, normally hand to hand is balanced
with
>everything else, you bring MA into it and everyone is running around like
monkey
>magic. Still if anyone is gonna keep it real it'll be SR.
>
I hope so. I agree that introducing martial arts into a system unbalances
the combat. People tend to think that asian martial arts are better than
other fighting methods. I think that if you spend time practicing and
everything, it doesn't really matter what style you use, just how good at it
you are. So someone with street fighting (6) is just as good as someone with
jiu jitsu (sp?) (6) or boxing (6). As long as they keep whichever martial
art as a normal, specialised fighting skill and not a physad without the ad
superhuman ninja turtle ability I'll be happy.
Message no. 82
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:03:55 -0800
On Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:36:39 +1100 "Simon Fuller" <sfuller@******.com.au>
writes:
<SNIP>
> I hope so. I agree that introducing martial arts into a system
> unbalances
> the combat. People tend to think that asian martial arts are better
> than
> other fighting methods. I think that if you spend time practicing
> and
> everything, it doesn't really matter what style you use, just how
> good at it
> you are. So someone with street fighting (6) is just as good as
> someone with
> jiu jitsu (sp?) (6) or boxing (6). As long as they keep whichever

jujitsu

> martial
> art as a normal, specialised fighting skill and not a physad without
> the ad
> superhuman ninja turtle ability I'll be happy.

/me blinks at lasts sentence ... "hunh?"

The thing to keep in mind with martial arts is not which style kicks more
hiney. It's what are the strategic strengths and weaknesses? If a
character has a low Strength/Body, boxing may not be the best choice in
fightning styles. Likewise, someone with a busy schedule might have a
hard time finding the time to master jujitsu.

If you want further examples of what I mean by "strategic strengths and
weaknesses", watch Ultimate Fighting Championships. I hear (I've never
seen any.) wrestlers have a hard time with an opponent until they get in
close, at which point they tear the opposition apart.

Training and special ability can overcome these weaknesses. For example,
an axe kick is devastating, but it is slow and you can't do it when you
are in close with your foe. However, I had a teacher (2nd degree
blackbelt) who was limber enough that she could pull it off. I've never
seen it, but I can imagine seeing her foot suddenly appear in front of
your face would be a little disturbing. :)

--
D. Ghost
A Mathmatician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
--Paul Erdos
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Message no. 83
From: . s t e f a n stefan@*****.org
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 03:47:32 +0100
> > you are. So someone with street fighting (6) is just as good as
> > someone with
> > jiu jitsu (sp?) (6) or boxing (6). As long as they keep whichever
>
>jujitsu

jujutsu, atleast that is what all my books says and my sensei.

.stefan


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Message no. 84
From: Timothy McKeever ceifeiro@****.net
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:41:06 -0600
<html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail, free
email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications, internet, software,
advertising banners, e-mail, free software'></head><body ><div
align='left'><font ><blockquote><blockquote><TT>&gt; I
hope so. I agree that introducing martial arts into a system <BR>
&gt; unbalances the combat. People tend to think that asian martial arts <BR>
&gt; are better than other fighting methods. I think that if you spend
&nbsp;<BR>
&gt; time practicing and everything, it doesn't really matter what style <BR>
&gt; you use, just how good at it you are. So someone with street <BR>
&gt; fighting (6) is just as good as someone with jiu jitsu (sp?) (6) or <BR>
&gt; boxing (6). As long as they keep whichever martial art as a normal, <BR>
&gt; specialised fighting skill and not a physad without the ad <BR>
&gt; superhuman ninja turtle ability I'll be happy.<BR>
<BR>
You're absolutely right (and being a martial artist myself, I should <BR>
know). &nbsp;I've come into contact with all sorts of fighting styles, and <BR>
as far as I can tell in a fight it doesn't make a difference what <BR>
fighting style you're using, only how far you are towards mastery of <BR>
that style. &nbsp;Some of the styles are radically different from each <BR>
other, but as to who hits who and who falls over, there's not a whole <BR>
lot of difference other than the individual skill levels of the <BR>
combatants.<BR>
<BR>
You shouldn't just totally ignore different styles and simply choose <BR>
a neat sounding one for cheap karma costs. &nbsp;Even though eastern <BR>
martial arts shouldn't do gobs more damage than other styles of <BR>
unarmed combat, each has a specific feel to it and you should <BR>
definately research the ideals and mentality behind a style before <BR>
choosing it as a skill. &nbsp;As an example, I study Wado Ryu karate, <BR>
which is a fairly defensive style, and it teaches its students to <BR>
live in peace. &nbsp;If I got into a fight, it would be because I had no <BR>
other choice and them I would only try to disable my opponent and <BR>
escape.<BR>
<BR>
I think that each of the martial arts in shadowrun should have the <BR>
same basic effect as unarmed combat, but should also have a <BR>
philosophy (sorta like the various stuff about totems) that would <BR>
help the player role-play an actual martial artist.<BR>
<BR>
Ceifeiro,<BR>
Servant of the Masses<BR>
<BR>
</TT><br><br><br><br><br><br><font><p
align=left><TT>Sent by EMUX.Net</TT><br>
________________________________________________________<br>
This email was sent from the free webbased email service EMUX.Net.
Get a free email account + web directory + calendar/scheduler
at http://www.EMUX.Net
</blockquote></blockquote></div></font></body></html>
Message no. 85
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 22:07:52 -0800
On Thu, 02 Mar 2000 03:47:32 +0100 ". s t e f a n" <stefan@*****.org>
writes:
<SNIP>
> >jujitsu

> jujutsu, atleast that is what all my books says and my sensei.

Actually, to the best of my knowledge, both are correct. I have no idea
what the difference is, but if I had to guess, I'd say it's merely a
regional difference in spelling. It could also stem from changes in the
English approximations of Chinese words (were there any other languages
that underwent revisions of their English approximations?)

--
D. Ghost
A Mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
--Paul Erdos

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Message no. 86
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:43:09 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, March 02, 2000 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: Martial Arts


>On Thu, 02 Mar 2000 03:47:32 +0100 ". s t e f a n" <stefan@*****.org>
>writes:
><SNIP>
>> >jujitsu
>
>> jujutsu, atleast that is what all my books says and my sensei.
>
>Actually, to the best of my knowledge, both are correct. I have no idea
>what the difference is, but if I had to guess, I'd say it's merely a
>regional difference in spelling. It could also stem from changes in the
>English approximations of Chinese words (were there any other languages
>that underwent revisions of their English approximations?)
>


Because the two languages share no common root, English spelling had to be
done phonetically, as I think you were getting at. Local (english speaking)
accents would account for variations of spelling even after the official
spelling is nailed down, I suppose.
It is a big thing lately to spell Aborigine words with lots of silent T's,
D's and J's just to make them look more exotic or something. It isn't a
total revision, more a new, politically correct midset since other than
place names, nobody really bothered much writing down the plethora of
aboriginal dialects and languages until most of them were long dead. Please
note that I am not making judgements here of anyone but the PC lobby, and I
have no interest in entering any racial debates.
Message no. 87
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:55:29 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, March 02, 2000 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Martial Arts


>On Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:36:39 +1100 "Simon Fuller"
<sfuller@******.com.au>
>writes:
><SNIP>
>> I hope so. I agree that introducing martial arts into a system
>> unbalances
>> the combat. People tend to think that asian martial arts are better
>> than
>> other fighting methods. I think that if you spend time practicing
>> and
>> everything, it doesn't really matter what style you use, just how
>> good at it
>> you are. So someone with street fighting (6) is just as good as
>> someone with
>> jiu jitsu (sp?) (6) or boxing (6). As long as they keep whichever
>
>jujitsu
>
>> martial
>> art as a normal, specialised fighting skill and not a physad without
>> the ad
>> superhuman ninja turtle ability I'll be happy.
>
>/me blinks at lasts sentence ... "hunh?"

A lot of games systems, I can't think of any examples right now, I've played
hundreds, introduce martial arts into their fighting systems after all the
rules have been nailed down. It usually means that the martial artist can
cause far more damage more quickly and more easily than someone using the
conventional fighting system. I tend to assume that the normal unarmed
combat skill above a certain level -is- a martial art of some sort, by
necessity. Giving it a name just means you've pinned down the style, it
shouldn't confer extra abilities. Physads have special abilities attributed
to the martial arts in other systems, so they're physads without the 'ad'ept
part.
>
>The thing to keep in mind with martial arts is not which style kicks more
>hiney. It's what are the strategic strengths and weaknesses? If a
>character has a low Strength/Body, boxing may not be the best choice in
>fightning styles. Likewise, someone with a busy schedule might have a
>hard time finding the time to master jujitsu.
>
>If you want further examples of what I mean by "strategic strengths and
>weaknesses", watch Ultimate Fighting Championships. I hear (I've never
>seen any.) wrestlers have a hard time with an opponent until they get in
>close, at which point they tear the opposition apart.
>
>Training and special ability can overcome these weaknesses. For example,
>an axe kick is devastating, but it is slow and you can't do it when you
>are in close with your foe. However, I had a teacher (2nd degree
>blackbelt) who was limber enough that she could pull it off. I've never
>seen it, but I can imagine seeing her foot suddenly appear in front of
>your face would be a little disturbing. :)
>
>--
>D. Ghost


Yes, so why not have unarmed combat, specialising in the above martial art
(jujitsu, is it?) and concentrating in kicks, instead of introducing a new
combat system. Of course, maybe FASA is just doing that but giving examples
of different styles and their strengths and weaknesses for us non-martial
artists. That would be cool but not strictly necessary IMHO.
Message no. 88
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:14:19 -0800 (PST)
> > > you are. So someone with street fighting (6) is
> just as good as
> > > someone with
> > > jiu jitsu (sp?) (6) or boxing (6). As long as
> they keep whichever
> >
> >jujitsu
>
> jujutsu, atleast that is what all my books says and
> my sensei.
>
> .stefan

Don't argue.

I've seen so many different spelling over the years,
it's not funny.

I don't think there IS really a correct spelling - I
mean, it's an adaptation of a Japanese word, which, if
I'm not mistaken, would have originally been a picture
- of sorts. Jiu-jitsu, jujutsu, jujitsu - whatever.
Close enough.

At least the sport form doesn't involve much debate.
Judo. Kendo. Etc. etc. :)

Personally, I'm a jujitsu and ninjitsu man, but apart
from that I go for the -jutsu form. Comes from my
particular reading habits, I guess.

*Doc' reads...

"See Spot.

See Spot run.

See Spot kick the postman's ass with a jujitsu
throw..."

Doc' gets thwapped by the -jutsu crowd...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 89
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:19:30 -0800 (PST)
<BigSnip(TM)>
> Training and special ability can overcome these
weaknesses. For example, an axe kick is devastating,
but it is slow and you can't do it when you are in
close with your foe. However, I had a teacher (2nd
degree blackbelt) who was limber enough that she could
pull it off. I've never seen it, but I can imagine
seeing her foot suddenly appear in front of your face
would be a little disturbing. :)
> D. Ghost

Well, that particular move is most useful if your
target's already on the ground.

Al, if you ever see her, ask her if she can do a leg
sweep/axe-kick combo. You'd have to be fast to pull it
off (more or less so depending on how low you get with
the sweep), but man would that ever hurt!

*Doc' crawls around picking up all the teeth that were
knocked loose in sheer, sympathetic reaction to the thought...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 90
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:27:22 -0800 (PST)
> > martial
> > art as a normal, specialised fighting skill and
> not a physad without
> > the ad
> > superhuman ninja turtle ability I'll be happy.
>
> /me blinks at lasts sentence ... "hunh?"
> D. Ghost

Btw, Al, methinks what our good Simon means is he
doesn't want martial arts to become something that
non-adepts ("physad without the ad") can take and
become superhuman gods of melee.

Which is fine - but personally, I'd like to see
something that LETS my unarmed combat adept become a
dangerous critter without having to make him a troll.
I dunno about you, but when I see a human, elf, dwarf
or ork adept whose entire LIFE is about becoming the
best damned unarmed combatant he can be turned into
pasty bits by a dumb troll ganger with a combat axe
and a +3 reach advantage, it makes me cry.

*Doc' sobs over the crumpled ruins of another
character sheet..."And he was so young! Only an hour old!"*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 91
From: Celtic Prince of Lies moa1@*******.edu
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 02:37:34 -0500
At 11:27 PM 03/01/00 -0800, you wrote:
>Which is fine - but personally, I'd like to see
>something that LETS my unarmed combat adept become a
>dangerous critter without having to make him a troll.
>I dunno about you, but when I see a human, elf, dwarf
>or ork adept whose entire LIFE is about becoming the
>best damned unarmed combatant he can be turned into
>pasty bits by a dumb troll ganger with a combat axe
>and a +3 reach advantage, it makes me cry.

This has always been the bane of unnarmed vs. armed combat. You should be
moving faster than them, but if not, you lose all around.

And apparently spending your entire life training in martial combat
precludes from you the common sense to not try to kick the troll ganger
with the combat axe and +3 reach advantage... =P
Message no. 92
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:55:11 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: Martial Arts


>> > martial
>> > art as a normal, specialised fighting skill and
>> not a physad without
>> > the ad
>> > superhuman ninja turtle ability I'll be happy.
>>
>> /me blinks at lasts sentence ... "hunh?"
>> D. Ghost
>
>Btw, Al, methinks what our good Simon means is he
>doesn't want martial arts to become something that
>non-adepts ("physad without the ad") can take and
>become superhuman gods of melee.
>
>Which is fine - but personally, I'd like to see
>something that LETS my unarmed combat adept become a
>dangerous critter without having to make him a troll.
>I dunno about you, but when I see a human, elf, dwarf
>or ork adept whose entire LIFE is about becoming the
>best damned unarmed combatant he can be turned into
>pasty bits by a dumb troll ganger with a combat axe
>and a +3 reach advantage, it makes me cry.
>
>*Doc' sobs over the crumpled ruins of another
>character sheet..."And he was so young! Only an hour old!"*
>
>====>Doc'


I'm a comic book fan, OK? Now there was a cool one I read where Captain
America (a peak physical condition but otherwise normal man) knocked the
Incredible Hulk (super strong, super tough) on his arse by use of pressure
points and nerve clusters. A bit of a backflip here, but that would be cool
to do in SR, if there were techniques that countered extra reach and
superior strength. Now if there were also negatives involved, and it made
you less good at just stand up fighting with an equal opponent, that would
be OK, because you would have to buy about 6 different styles to be a well
rounded combatant. And if there were styles that were only good against
opponents using different styles, even better. And if you had to have at
least 6 in the skill before it wasn't a risky proposition to use (like that
reverse scissor axe kick thingy) even better yet, It is anti-munchkin, but
with a lot of karma spent, you would be extremely formiddable and have a
cool specialist character to boot. I just don't want to see sammy with all
sorts of gun skills, armed combat skills AND he can break besser bricks with
his groin.
Message no. 93
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:12:47 +0100
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
> If you want further examples of what I mean by "strategic strengths and
> weaknesses", watch Ultimate Fighting Championships. I hear (I've never
> seen any.) wrestlers have a hard time with an opponent until they get in
> close, at which point they tear the opposition apart.

80% of those matches gets decided on the floor where wrestlers have an
obvious advantage.

> Training and special ability can overcome these weaknesses. For example,
> an axe kick is devastating, but it is slow and you can't do it when you
> are in close with your foe. However, I had a teacher (2nd degree
> blackbelt) who was limber enough that she could pull it off. I've never
> seen it, but I can imagine seeing her foot suddenly appear in front of
> your face would be a little disturbing. :)

I've been practicing Kung Fu (Choy Lee Fat and Siu Lam Kung Fu) for over 14
years now. During that time I've done a lot of cross-martial art tournaments
where any martial art could enroll to compete against different other
martial arts. One thing I've noticed is that the more versatile the martial
art, the more chance it has of beating the opponent.

For instance wrestlers often give way to drop kicks and back spinning heel
kicks because it requires such a radically different way of thinking during
battle. Tae Kwon Do almost always loses against Kiokushinkai (sp?) Karate
because the come up close and tear you apart. As soon as you find a martial
art that uses both (Free Fighting, Kung Fu, Jeet Kuun Do, Muai Thay) it
often wins out against other, less dynamic martial arts.

DV8

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 94
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 02:27:09 -0800
On Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:27:22 -0800 (PST) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
> > > martial
> > > art as a normal, specialised fighting skill and
> > not a physad without
> > > the ad
> > > superhuman ninja turtle ability I'll be happy.
> >
> > /me blinks at lasts sentence ... "hunh?"
> > D. Ghost
>
> Btw, Al, methinks what our good Simon means is he
> doesn't want martial arts to become something that
> non-adepts ("physad without the ad") can take and
> become superhuman gods of melee.
<SNIP>

Okay, it was the transition from "physad without the ad" to "superhuman
ninja turtle" that was throwing me ...

(I know English isn't everyone's native language [It's not mine, but I
don't count.], but could you /please/ try your best to use proper
grammer? In the above sentence, a few commas would have made a /world/ of
difference.)

--
D. Ghost
A Mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
--Paul Erdos
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Message no. 95
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 02:49:25 -0800
On Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:19:30 -0800 (PST) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
> <BigSnip(TM)>
> > Training and special ability can overcome these
> weaknesses. For example, an axe kick is devastating,
> but it is slow and you can't do it when you are in
> close with your foe. However, I had a teacher (2nd
> degree blackbelt) who was limber enough that she could
> pull it off. I've never seen it, but I can imagine
> seeing her foot suddenly appear in front of your face
> would be a little disturbing. :)
> > D. Ghost

> Well, that particular move is most useful if your
> target's already on the ground.
>
> Al, if you ever see her, ask her if she can do a leg
> sweep/axe-kick combo. You'd have to be fast to pull it
> off (more or less so depending on how low you get with
> the sweep), but man would that ever hurt!

If anyone can, she can. I've seen her spar. She's a dervish! (And this
was AFTER she calmed down ... She used to be aggressive...)

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Message no. 96
From: waylex1 waylex1@**************.co.uk
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 13:02:59 +0000
Celtic Prince of Lies wrote:

> At 11:27 PM 03/01/00 -0800, you wrote:
> >Which is fine - but personally, I'd like to see
> >something that LETS my unarmed combat adept become a
> >dangerous critter without having to make him a troll.
> >I dunno about you, but when I see a human, elf, dwarf
> >or ork adept whose entire LIFE is about becoming the
> >best damned unarmed combatant he can be turned into
> >pasty bits by a dumb troll ganger with a combat axe
> >and a +3 reach advantage, it makes me cry.
>
> This has always been the bane of unnarmed vs. armed combat. You should be
> moving faster than them, but if not, you lose all around.
>
> And apparently spending your entire life training in martial combat
> precludes from you the common sense to not try to kick the troll ganger
> with the combat axe and +3 reach advantage... =P

If you go up against someone with a weapon you will get hurt if you don't have
a weapon too. I was a brown and white belt at shotokan (1 off black) and I
would not go up against a knife man if he asked for my wallet, why? A my life
is worth more than the contents of my wallet and B even if I take him down I
am going to get cut. Weapons are always superior, I bet I could cut bruce lee
at least once before he snapped my spine in two. And with the arteries in the
arms, one lucky cut is sometimes what it takes.

This is going back to the realism thread too much, but I do agree it nice to
have a ninja of a character.
Message no. 97
From: waylex1 waylex1@**************.co.uk
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 13:03:00 +0000
> I'm a comic book fan, OK? Now there was a cool one I read where Captain
> America (a peak physical condition but otherwise normal man) knocked the
> Incredible Hulk (super strong, super tough) on his arse by use of pressure
> points and nerve clusters.

He would never have done that against the grey hulk with banners smarts ;)
Message no. 98
From: waylex1 waylex1@**************.co.uk
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 13:03:05 +0000
> <BigSnip(TM)>
> > Training and special ability can overcome these
> weaknesses. For example, an axe kick is devastating,
> but it is slow and you can't do it when you are in
> close with your foe. However, I had a teacher (2nd
> degree blackbelt) who was limber enough that she could
> pull it off. I've never seen it, but I can imagine
> seeing her foot suddenly appear in front of your face
> would be a little disturbing. :)
> > D. Ghost
>
> Well, that particular move is most useful if your
> target's already on the ground.

Even better when they're trying to get up. BUT ONLY DO IT IF YOU ARE NEXT
GOING TO RUN!!!, I am not agreeing with beating on guys when they are on
the floor. MA is about self defense and the best defense is not being in a
fight in the first place.
Message no. 99
From: waylex1 waylex1@**************.co.uk
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 13:03:09 +0000
> A lot of games systems, I can't think of any examples right now, I've played
> hundreds, introduce martial arts into their fighting systems after all the
> rules have been nailed down. It usually means that the martial artist can
> cause far more damage more quickly and more easily than someone using the
> conventional fighting system. I tend to assume that the normal unarmed
> combat skill above a certain level -is- a martial art of some sort, by
> necessity. Giving it a name just means you've pinned down the style, it
> shouldn't confer extra abilities. Physads have special abilities attributed
> to the martial arts in other systems, so they're physads without the 'ad'ept
> part.

I completely agree in one sense high unarmed should equate to some martial art.
But I am slightly apprehensive about the fact it will confer unbalancing
additional abilities.
Message no. 100
From: waylex1 waylex1@**************.co.uk
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 13:03:14 +0000
> Training and special ability can overcome these weaknesses. For example,
> an axe kick is devastating, but it is slow and you can't do it when you
> are in close with your foe. However, I had a teacher (2nd degree
> blackbelt) who was limber enough that she could pull it off. I've never
> seen it, but I can imagine seeing her foot suddenly appear in front of
> your face would be a little disturbing. :)

Trust me dude it is, thats why I gave up.

But lets face it any MA rules always give PCs more than they lose and as the
hand to hand system is balanced at present, FASA have to be very careful not
to unbalance it. As I said previously I am always suspect of MA in games, but
FASA I believe can pull it off.
Message no. 101
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:06:42 +0100
From: waylex1 <waylex1@**************.co.uk>
> MA is about self defense and the best defense is not being in a
> fight in the first place.

I disagree. Most Martial Arts, even though some advocate being a "self
defense" art, are to master the art of fighting. MA is about fighting in
whatever way possible.

DV8

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 102
From: Wildfire@*************.com Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 15:09:06 GMT
On Wed, 1 Mar 2000 21:41:06 -0600 shadowrn@*********.com wrote:
> <html><head><meta Name='keywords' Content='commtouch, pronto, mail,
free
> email, free, branded, web based, free web based email, communications,
> internet, software, advertising banners, e-mail, free
> software'></head><body ><div align='left'><font
> ><blockquote><blockquote><TT>> I hope so. I agree that
introducing
> martial arts into a system <BR> > unbalances the combat. People tend to
>
ACK!
I'm sure someone has mailed this person, or will, but incase this gets to the list first,
please no html :-)

Wildfire (sometimes with a DC)
Terminally Behind SOTA
Message no. 103
From: Wildfire@*************.com Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 15:40:47 GMT
On Wed, 1 Mar 2000 23:14:19 -0800 (PST) shadowrn@*********.com wrote:
> > > > you are. So someone with street fighting (6) is
> > just as good as
> > > > someone with
> > > > jiu jitsu (sp?) (6) or boxing (6). As long as
> > they keep whichever
> > >
> > >jujitsu
> >
> > jujutsu, atleast that is what all my books says and
> > my sensei.
> >
> > .stefan
>
> Don't argue.
>
> I've seen so many different spelling over the years,
> it's not funny.
>

Hai.

> I don't think there IS really a correct spelling - I
> mean, it's an adaptation of a Japanese word, which, if
> I'm not mistaken, would have originally been a picture
> - of sorts. Jiu-jitsu, jujutsu, jujitsu - whatever.
> Close enough.

Japanese is/was based off of the Chinese kanji system. When western civilizations tried
to write down things they invented romanji, romanized spelling of kanji. A lot of the
rules of romanji have changed. Examples: Mt. Fuji. The sound was originally notated as
"fu" but now "hu" is used, as its closer.
The thing is that most people want to pronounce the word "ju-jit-tsoo" There is
no short i sound like in "it" in Japanese. ji is pronounced "jee",
and je is "jay", so technically, there is no Japanese spelling for the word :-)

>
> At least the sport form doesn't involve much debate.
> Judo. Kendo. Etc. etc. :)
>
No that an entirely different debate. :-)

"So, swords, they're Kendo?"
"No, they're shinai."
"Shinai are wooden swords?"
"No, shinai are bamboo swords"
"So kendos are swords?"
"NO. Swords are bokken."
"I thought you said they were shinai."
"No! Bokken are wooden swords, Shinai are bamboo swords!"
"So what are kendos?"
"Argh! "Kendos" aren't a thing. Kendo's what you practice WITH the
sword."
"Which sword?"
"I give up!"

(I swear, the conversation, really did go on like this)

Wildfire (sometimes with a DC)
Terminally Behind SOTA
Message no. 104
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:50:38 EST
In a message dated 3/2/00 2:37:06 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
moa1@*******.edu writes:

>
> And apparently spending your entire life training in martial combat
> precludes from you the common sense to not try to kick the troll ganger
> with the combat axe and +3 reach advantage... =P

I suppose it depends on the kick, neh?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 105
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 12:06:15 -0500
waylex1 wrote:

> > A lot of games systems, I can't think of any examples right now, I've played
> > hundreds, introduce martial arts into their fighting systems after all the
> > rules have been nailed down. It usually means that the martial artist can
> > cause far more damage more quickly and more easily than someone using the
> > conventional fighting system.

<SNIP>
Well, in the Oriental Sourcebook for AD&D (that most munchie of all sourcebooks),
they do. They take the brawling system in place in the Second Edition (which made
sense to me) and turned it into something else so that the people with those weapon
proficiencies (which I think cost one, IIRC) became deadlier than a fighter with a
broad sword! Not to mention the shuriken... *bitter*

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder,
bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In
Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The
cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 106
From: waylex1 waylex1@**************.co.uk
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 18:11:07 +0000
> I disagree. Most Martial Arts, even though some advocate being a "self
> defense" art, are to master the art of fighting. MA is about fighting in
> whatever way possible.

My previous statement was more geared towards the general perception of the
"sport". Estentially MA are taught "to pass on knowledge" be it for
sport,
self defense or the sakeof violence. I think the its the reasons for
learning may differ from one person to another.
Message no. 107
From: Mike Buckalew mike_buckalew@*********.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:09:08 -0800
> Personally, I'm a jujitsu and ninjitsu man, but apart
> from that I go for the -jutsu form. Comes from my
> particular reading habits, I guess.

This thread reminded me of one of the funniest things I ever saw on this
list, back in '95. There were two separate threads at the time, both long
and drawn out, borderline flame and so on. One involved the difference
between -do and -jutsu forms and the other involved the lethality of common
household items in the hand of an expert.

Old timers on the list may recognize the following posters, who were once
significant contributors to the list.

I give you, dredged up from my ancient SR archives, drum roll please,

TOILETPAPERJUTSU!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 12:22:42 -0400
From: Terry Amburgey <xanth@****.UKY.EDU>
Subject: toiletpaperjutsu

Rat wrote:
>It goes with the previous statement, which go with the previous
>statement about boken being lethal weapons. It's amazing how often
>people forget that a chair, a towel, even a roll of toilet paper can be
>used with lethal effect.

Re the 'lethal toilet paper'. Does it have to be the industrial strength
sandpaper my employer puts in the stalls or can it be the fluffy kind my
wife buys for home use? Can it be dikoted? If the tube is made of orichalcum
instead of cardboard can it be enchanted into a weapon focus? How many dots
on the skill web separate toiletpaperdo from toiletpaperjutsu? Sheesh,
you've opened a real can of worms vis-a-vis the game mechanics of lethal
toilet paper. Terry
Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506
------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 10:09:57 -0700
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: toiletpaperjutsu

>>>>>Re the 'lethal toilet paper'. Does it have to be the industrial
strength
sandpaper my employer puts in the stalls or can it be the fluffy kind my
wife buys for home use? Can it be dikoted? If the tube is made of orichalcum
instead of cardboard can it be enchanted into a weapon focus? How many dots
on the skill web separate toiletpaperdo from toiletpaperjutsu? Sheesh,
you've opened a real can of worms vis-a-vis the game mechanics of lethal
toilet paper.<<<<<

He stalks down the alleyway, a lean figure in a black longcoat.
Alone. Head down, musing. Alone... and vulnerable.
As if from the shadows, figures step into view, five of them,
surrounding. They do not speak. The set of their stance and the gleam
of the leader's smirk, mirroring the flash of his pistol's steel, speak
all that needs to be said about the situation. The lone man halts. The
figures draw closer.
In a move too fast to see, he whips something from beneath his
longcoat. Something white. There is a faint, baby-fresh smell.
Whiteness rips through the air with a sound like tearing sails.
Two of the attackers scream as their legs are sheared off by the
monofilament edge. The leader brings up his pistol, but the round roll
darts out, imapacting into his chest with a flash of eldritch light. He
gives an anguished wail and falls. Another punk slashes out with a knife,
but again the whirring whiteness interceeds; the blade is wrapped in
squeezable softness, and only thumps uselessly against the longcoated
figure, who uses his attacker's forward momentum to slam him facefirst
into the brick wall.
The last man turns, tries to run. Whiteness flashes. In a whirring
instant the binding sheets of his paper shroud enfold him, head to toe,
around eyes and mouth and nose, python-tight. He struggles a long moment,
then falls still.
The lone figure tears off a few sheets, and dabs gently at a few
spots of blood on his longcoat. Then, returning his weapon to its
rack inside he coat, he spares a glance for the fallen. Such violence
and death, so much a part of life here... but he must be philosophical
about things.
"When ya gotta go, ya gotta go," he mumbles under his breath, and
resumes his walk... slow, musing. Alone.

-Eve

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Buck (Mike Buckalew)
buck@*********.com
Test Manager
FileMaker, Inc.
Message no. 108
From: waylex1 waylex1@**************.co.uk
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 19:48:22 +0000
> He stalks down the alleyway, a lean figure in a black longcoat.
> Alone. Head down, musing. Alone... and vulnerable.
> As if from the shadows, figures step into view, five of them,
> surrounding. They do not speak. The set of their stance and the gleam
> of the leader's smirk, mirroring the flash of his pistol's steel, speak
> all that needs to be said about the situation. The lone man halts. The
> figures draw closer.
> In a move too fast to see, he whips something from beneath his
> longcoat. Something white. There is a faint, baby-fresh smell.
> Whiteness rips through the air with a sound like tearing sails.
> Two of the attackers scream as their legs are sheared off by the
> monofilament edge. The leader brings up his pistol, but the round roll
> darts out, imapacting into his chest with a flash of eldritch light. He
> gives an anguished wail and falls. Another punk slashes out with a knife,
> but again the whirring whiteness interceeds; the blade is wrapped in
> squeezable softness, and only thumps uselessly against the longcoated
> figure, who uses his attacker's forward momentum to slam him facefirst
> into the brick wall.
> The last man turns, tries to run. Whiteness flashes. In a whirring
> instant the binding sheets of his paper shroud enfold him, head to toe,
> around eyes and mouth and nose, python-tight. He struggles a long moment,
> then falls still.
> The lone figure tears off a few sheets, and dabs gently at a few
> spots of blood on his longcoat. Then, returning his weapon to its
> rack inside he coat, he spares a glance for the fallen. Such violence
> and death, so much a part of life here... but he must be philosophical
> about things.
> "When ya gotta go, ya gotta go," he mumbles under his breath, and
> resumes his walk... slow, musing. Alone.

RFLOL, what talent!!! have they published any books yet? if not why? if so
where?
Message no. 109
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 08:52:06 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: waylex1 <waylex1@**************.co.uk>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, March 03, 2000 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: Martial Arts


>> I'm a comic book fan, OK? Now there was a cool one I read where Captain
>> America (a peak physical condition but otherwise normal man) knocked the
>> Incredible Hulk (super strong, super tough) on his arse by use of
pressure
>> points and nerve clusters.
>
>He would never have done that against the grey hulk with banners smarts ;)
>
I REALLY shouldn't go into this, I know, but I rush in where angels fear to
tread...
At the time, The hulk was green AND had banner's mind, personality and
intellect.
For those not in the know, the hulk has gone through very many changes since
the 60's, including being grey and dumb, being green and dumb, being green
and dumb and changing to human at will, being grey, not so strong, fairly
smart and mean, being permanantly big and green, smart etc, turning from the
big green smart guy to the weedy doctor body but the 'hulk smash' intellect
(no seriously) and now I think he's green and dumb again. There may be more,
I don't often read comics any more. And you all bitch about the SR3
editions, think what Hulk readers have to go through :)
Message no. 110
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:40:21 -0800
On Thu, 02 Mar 2000 15:40:47 GMT Wildfire@*************.com writes:
<SNIP>
> "So, swords, they're Kendo?"
> "No, they're shinai."
> "Shinai are wooden swords?"
> "No, shinai are bamboo swords"
> "So kendos are swords?"
> "NO. Swords are bokken."
> "I thought you said they were shinai."
> "No! Bokken are wooden swords, Shinai are bamboo swords!"
> "So what are kendos?"
> "Argh! "Kendos" aren't a thing. Kendo's what you practice WITH the
> sword."
> "Which sword?"
> "I give up!"
>
> (I swear, the conversation, really did go on like this)

LOL! I tried Kendo once, it's great ... Men! Men! Men! ;) (I hope that's
the correct spelling ...)

--
D. Ghost
A Mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
--Paul Erdos

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Message no. 111
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 09:14:48 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, March 03, 2000 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Martial Arts


>
>LOL! I tried Kendo once, it's great ... Men! Men! Men! ;) (I hope that's
>the correct spelling ...)
>
>--
>D. Ghost


I dunno, sound like a Villiage People song to me...
Message no. 112
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:08:40 -0500
Doc' said:
> Al, if you ever see her, ask her if she can do a leg
> sweep/axe-kick combo. You'd have to be fast to pull it
> off (more or less so depending on how low you get with
> the sweep), but man would that ever hurt!

It's fancy, but I'd trust a mean low knee kick any day, that or a liver
punch (just where it hangs below the ribs). For most an axe kick is just an
invitation to get charged and dropped (like you said you've got to be fast
and flexible).

;)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 113
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:32:30 -0500 (EST)
Excerpts from ShadowRN: 2-Mar-100 RE: Martial Arts by Mike & L. Frankl@***.com
> It's fancy, but I'd trust a mean low knee kick any day, that or a liver
> punch (just where it hangs below the ribs). For most an axe kick is just an
> invitation to get charged and dropped (like you said you've got to be fast
> and flexible).

Sounds like a good plan to me.

I've scored points using an axe kick (it was right after a high
roundhouse kick left me in an ideal position to do so), but in a fight,
I'd have to file it under the large list of moves that require the
target to sit still for a minute, and you do to intimidate *everyone
else* you might have to fight. A little bit of flash can go pretty far
psychologically, but you generally can't afford to do risky maneuvers
until you've got the opponent reeling and it's basically over anyway.
Then again, my psychology skills fail me periodically, and I'm not
nearly as quick as I was when I was training hard. :)

Mark
Message no. 114
From: waylex1 waylex1@**************.co.uk
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 00:23:59 +0000
> I REALLY shouldn't go into this, I know, but I rush in where angels fear to
> tread...
> At the time, The hulk was green AND had banner's mind, personality and
> intellect.
> For those not in the know, the hulk has gone through very many changes since
> the 60's, including being grey and dumb, being green and dumb, being green
> and dumb and changing to human at will, being grey, not so strong, fairly
> smart and mean, being permanantly big and green, smart etc, turning from the
> big green smart guy to the weedy doctor body but the 'hulk smash' intellect
> (no seriously) and now I think he's green and dumb again. There may be more,
> I don't often read comics any more. And you all bitch about the SR3
> editions, think what Hulk readers have to go through :)

He took him out intelligent and green, he was far harder when he was green.
Message no. 115
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:35:04 EST
In a message dated 3/2/00 5:50:43 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.com writes:

<snip> > (I swear, the conversation, really did go on like this)
>
> LOL! I tried Kendo once, it's great ... Men! Men! Men! ;) (I hope that's
> the correct spelling ...)

I have no idea Alfredo, but this sentence *does* make me think of you in a
whole new way!!! <EWG> ;-P

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 116
From: Jyster Cap jyster007@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:44:58 -0800 (PST)
--- Celtic Prince of Lies <moa1@*******.edu> wrote:

> And apparently spending your entire life training in
> martial combat
> precludes from you the common sense to not try to
> kick the troll ganger
> with the combat axe and +3 reach advantage... =P

Thats when you start using your traingin ing Gun Fu
and shoot him full of lead.
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Message no. 117
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:59:18 -0800
On Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:35:04 EST HHackerH@***.com writes:
> In a message dated 3/2/00 5:50:43 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> dghost@****.com writes:
>
> <snip> > (I swear, the conversation, really did go on like this)
> >
> > LOL! I tried Kendo once, it's great ... Men! Men! Men! ;) (I hope
that's
> > the correct spelling ...)

> I have no idea Alfredo, but this sentence *does* make me think of
> you in a
> whole new way!!! <EWG> ;-P

In Kendo, you shout out the part of what you intend to strike as you
swing. "Men" is the name word for head (in Japanese?). :P~

--
D. Ghost
A Mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
--Paul Erdos

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Message no. 118
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:38:29 -0800 (PST)
> This has always been the bane of unnarmed vs. armed
combat. You should be moving faster than them, but if
not, you lose all around.
>
> And apparently spending your entire life training in
martial combat precludes from you the common sense to
not try to kick the troll ganger with the combat axe
and +3 reach advantage... =P

Sure, but a) a "lifelong martial artist" SHOULD be
able to kick that troll heinie (strength isn't
everything in combat, and though reach is a big thing,
again it's not everything - get inside his reach and
he SHOULD be in trouble, which is why I have rules for
getting inside someone's reach) and b) what happens
when you CAN'T run and you HAVE to fight?

Don't say "pull a gun". There are always situations
where that isn't an option either.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 119
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:45:02 -0800 (PST)
> > Well, that particular move is most useful if your
target's already on the ground.
> >
> > Al, if you ever see her, ask her if she can do a
leg sweep/axe-kick combo. You'd have to be fast to
pull it off (more or less so depending on how low you
get with the sweep), but man would that ever hurt!
>
> If anyone can, she can. I've seen her spar. She's a
dervish! (And this was AFTER she calmed down ... She
used to be aggressive...)

Hoo, uh...

*Doc' chases away the bedroom mental images..."Mmmm...derrrrvish..."*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

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Message no. 120
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:13:21 -0800 (PST)
> >Which is fine - but personally, I'd like to see
> >something that LETS my unarmed combat adept become
> a
> >dangerous critter without having to make him a
> troll.
> >I dunno about you, but when I see a human, elf,
> dwarf
> >or ork adept whose entire LIFE is about becoming
> the
> >best damned unarmed combatant he can be turned into
> >pasty bits by a dumb troll ganger with a combat axe
> >and a +3 reach advantage, it makes me cry.
> >
> >*Doc' sobs over the crumpled ruins of another
> >character sheet..."And he was so young! Only an
> hour old!"*
>
> I'm a comic book fan, OK? Now there was a cool one I
read where Captain America (a peak physical condition
but otherwise normal man) knocked the Incredible Hulk
(super strong, super tough) on his arse by use of
pressure points and nerve clusters. A bit of a
backflip here, but that would be cool to do in SR, if
there were techniques that countered extra reach and
superior strength. Now if there were also negatives
involved, and it made you less good at just stand up
fighting with an equal opponent, that would be OK,
because you would have to buy about 6 different styles
to be a well rounded combatant. And if there were
styles that were only good against opponents using
different styles, even better. And if you had to have
at least 6 in the skill before it wasn't a risky
proposition to use (like that reverse scissor axe kick
thingy) even better yet, It is anti-munchkin, but with
a lot of karma spent, you would be extremely
formiddable and have a cool specialist character to
boot. I just don't want to see sammy with all sorts of
gun skills, armed combat skills AND he can break
besser bricks with his groin.

Well, sure, but what I'm saying is right now there
ISN'T anything like that. A troll ganger with Edged
weapons 6 and a combat axe can stand up to an unarmed
combat adept with skills up the yin-yang because of
that +3 reach advantage.

I don't want to see super characters who can do
everything either, but I'd like to see a system in SR
where it CAN BE worthwhile to specialise in unarmed
combat (and not have to be a troll).

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 121
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 23:08:17 -0500 (EST)
Excerpts from ShadowRN: 2-Mar-100 Re: Martial Arts by Rand=@***
> Well, sure, but what I'm saying is right now there
> ISN'T anything like that. A troll ganger with Edged
> weapons 6 and a combat axe can stand up to an unarmed
> combat adept with skills up the yin-yang because of
> that +3 reach advantage.

It's a troll with a combat axe and a skill of 6! This isn't some
average troll here, this is about as good as an unenhanced, nonmagical
starting character can get. (well, the troll could specialize in axes,
but moving on...) Drop the troll's skill down to 4 (still very
respectable), give the adept Centering vs. TN penalties, and you've got
a reasonably close match. (I'd give the adept about even odds) Give
the adept Distance Strike to negate the reach penalty on the adept's own
attacks and the edge swings heavily to the adept.

The troll gets his deserved bonuses for bringing +1 reach and an axe
to a fistfight.

Mark
Message no. 122
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:45:34 +0100
According to Mike Buckalew, at 11:09 on 2 Mar 00, the word on the street
was...

> TOILETPAPERJUTSU!

Aaargh! That brings back memories... I've even still got Eve's post up on
my web site somewhere! Those were the days :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Because there are no stories about romance, no fairy-tale endings. Before
you run out and change the world, ask yourself, what do you really want?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 123
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 10:45:34 +0100
According to waylex1, at 19:48 on 2 Mar 00, the word on the street was...

> RFLOL, what talent!!! have they published any books yet? if not why? if so
> where?

Unless I'm mistaken, Eve wrote some episodes of -- what was it again --
Samurai Pizza Cats, or Biker Mice From Mars, or some similar cartoon. Adam
Getchell might know, because as I recall she played in his group, but he's
not on the list anymore either :/

As for Terry, well... I don't think you want game books written by him, as
he was almost as bad as Ivy when it came to championing by-the-book play.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Because there are no stories about romance, no fairy-tale endings. Before
you run out and change the world, ask yourself, what do you really want?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 124
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 06:34:20 -0800 (PST)
> Doc' said:
> > Al, if you ever see her, ask her if she can do a
leg sweep/axe-kick combo. You'd have to be fast to
pull it off (more or less so depending on how low you
get with the sweep), but man would that ever hurt!
>
> It's fancy, but I'd trust a mean low knee kick any
day, that or a liver punch (just where it hangs below
the ribs).

Oh, sure, but can we say BOR-ING!?

;)

> For most an axe kick is just an invitation to get
charged and dropped (like you said you've got to be
fast and flexible).
> Smilin' Jack

Which is why I said sweep/axe kick combo. If your
opponent is lying on the ground, admiring the pretty
stars and trying to get his breath back, he ain't
gonna be looking for that heel coming down at his
face/sternum/stomach/groin...;)

This time, Jack, can we say OUCH!?

*Doc' looks at the corpse of his sparring partner
apologetically. "Oh, you meant axe KICK?"*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 125
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 07:03:08 -0800 (PST)
> It's a troll with a combat axe and a skill of 6!
This isn't some average troll here, this is about as
good as an unenhanced, nonmagical starting character
can get. (well, the troll could specialize in axes,
but moving on...)

Fine, but I think I was thinking of higher skill
levels for the adept than you are.

> Drop the troll's skill down to 4 (still very
respectable), give the adept Centering vs. TN
penalties, and you've got a reasonably close match.

What, you let an adept centre away reach penalties?
Being troll-boy, I suddenly start using all my reach
advantage to modify my target number down, throw in as
many combat pool dice as possible, beat you handily
and bury my axe in your skull.

> (I'd give the adept about even odds) Give the adept
Distance Strike to negate the reach penalty on the
adept's own attacks and the edge swings heavily to the
adept.

Sure, but how many adepts are going to get Distance
Strike? That thing costs.

And still, you're looking at a starting character or a
meat ganger (the troll), holding a commonly available
item, versus an extremely powerful, dedicated adept,
and he's still only got even odds. Not good at all.

> The troll gets his deserved bonuses for bringing
+1 reach and an axe to a fistfight.
> Mark

Well, sure. This is why I never play a close-combat
adept. Because it's suicide. The closest I've come is
a guy named Void who has killing hands and unarmed
combat - and he's a sniper, so he'll be pulling out
that rifle and potting the troll through the head
before he can get close.

That's not the point. I'm saying, I would LIKE to be
able to play a close combat adept who is a) not a
troll and/or b) not armed with a combat axe or other
huge weapon and still have a better than average
chance of surviving a combat because he's good at what
he does.

Maybe not realistic, but not every SR game HAS to be
realistic, and so far there hasn't been ANYTHING -
even optional rules - to let you do this.

I'm sorry, but I'd LOVE to do a kung-fu movie version
of SR...

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 126
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 15:50:39 -0500 (EST)
Excerpts from ShadowRN: 3-Mar-100 Re: Martial Arts by Rand=@***
> > Drop the troll's skill down to 4 (still very
> respectable), give the adept Centering vs. TN
> penalties, and you've got a reasonably close match.
>
> What, you let an adept centre away reach penalties?

It's a TN penalty, or a TN bonus to the wielder. I'd certainly let
them center away the penalty, as I didn't see MITS qualify "Centering
vs. TN penalties" with any special cases.

> Being troll-boy, I suddenly start using all my reach
> advantage to modify my target number down, throw in as
> many combat pool dice as possible, beat you handily
> and bury my axe in your skull.

That's TN2 vs. TN4, advantage still probably goes to the adept with
12+pool skill dice against a troll with 4+pool dice.

> > (I'd give the adept about even odds) Give the adept
> Distance Strike to negate the reach penalty on the
> adept's own attacks and the edge swings heavily to the
> adept.
>
> Sure, but how many adepts are going to get Distance
> Strike? That thing costs.

Are you going to specialize in unarmed combat, or not? ;)
(Contrary to popular opinion, you don't need Killing Hands to specialize
in Unarmed Combat, it just lets you do lethal damage and pound on
low-to-medium sized spirits.)

IIRC, you can fit in 6 points of unarmed combat, Distance Strike,
and Wired 2 (what's it really called, Increased Reflexes 2?) all on a
starting character if you geasa all of it. If you don't, you'll have to
give up the speed boost, and have a point to spend on improved senses,
stealth, or a point of Strength or something.

> And still, you're looking at a starting character or a
> meat ganger (the troll), holding a commonly available
> item, versus an extremely powerful, dedicated adept,
> and he's still only got even odds. Not good at all.

You've got the same problem if you put an adept on one end of a
football field, and a merc with an assault rifle at the other. <shrug>

I've found that the solution to allowing HK movie style fighting
involves not arming trolls with reach 2 weaponry, and not having all
that many trolls anyway. They tend to get shot up. My low-grade
adversary is just a skilled human, who has an Essence of 6, so that if
there's anything left of him when the PCs leave, my NPC healing brigade
can pick up the pieces more easily. As soon as they take that deadly,
my PCs seem to ignore them, and are usually trying to exit as quickly as
possible at the time. (It helps that any NPC more than lightly wounded
wants to leave anyway.)

Mark
Message no. 127
From: Jett zmjett@*********.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 21:44:33 -0500
HHackerH@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 3/2/00 2:37:06 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> moa1@*******.edu writes:
>
> >
> > And apparently spending your entire life training in martial combat
> > precludes from you the common sense to not try to kick the troll ganger
> > with the combat axe and +3 reach advantage... =P
>
> I suppose it depends on the kick, neh?

True. A cross-behind side kick can cover a lot of distance pretty damn
fast...very good for getting inside those long arms...

--Jett
<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"This is the worst place in the world. You shouldn't have come here. You'll
die here."
"Stay in the best place in the world, darling, and you'll die there, too."
-Lord Fanny, to Quimper, The Invisibles


"I'll make this clear, I'm only here for backup. And to offer the occasional
advice or insult."
--Jett, undead bounty hunter
Message no. 128
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 22:48:47 -0500
Doc asked:
> This time, Jack, can we say OUCH!?

Yeah' I'll give you that it is showy and entertaining to watch (and easier
to get shot). I lean towards the scenario where the guy is incapacitated on
the ground and no one knows who did it (especially with today's lawyers).
Trust me hearing a knee snap does get you the "ouch" factor (plus they go
down whether they like it or not). Hits to the organs and solar plexus make
your opponent feel like they are going to die (sometimes they're right too).
The color drains out of their face and they get that really terrified "oh my
god" look.

That reminds me of the scene in Rising Sun where Sean Connery poked the
muscle guy at the door in the throat with a couple of fingers. Anyone
remember that one? Hmmmmm... subtlety.
:)

*Jack says to Doc, "no, do it like this..." :)

;)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 129
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 08:41:42 +0000
In article <NDBBJOAGGLDFDOBODKKBIEENCKAA.mlfrankl@***.com>, Mike
& Linda Frankl <mlfrankl@***.com> writes
>That reminds me of the scene in Rising Sun where Sean Connery poked the
>muscle guy at the door in the throat with a couple of fingers. Anyone
>remember that one? Hmmmmm... subtlety.

"They say that if you must resort to violence, then you've already lost.
What do you think, Jeff?"

"I think I'll go get Mr Sakamura."

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 130
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 05:45:25 -0800 (PST)
> > > Drop the troll's skill down to 4 (still very
respectable), give the adept Centering vs. TN
penalties, and you've got a reasonably close match.
> >
> > What, you let an adept centre away reach
penalties?
>
> It's a TN penalty, or a TN bonus to the wielder.
I'd certainly let them center away the penalty, as I
didn't see MITS qualify "Centering vs. TN penalties"
with any special cases.

Good point. That one's never actually come up for me
(playing or GMing). Personally, I think centering in a
fight is crap - fits the rules, but not the spirit.
The only time I think it ever fits is if you have a
bit of time on your hands (for instance, a sniper).

> > Being troll-boy, I suddenly start using all my
reach advantage to modify my target number down, throw
in as many combat pool dice as possible, beat you
handily and bury my axe in your skull.
>
> That's TN2 vs. TN4, advantage still probably
goes to the adept with 12+pool skill dice against a
troll with 4+pool dice.

Sure, but...maybe you were thinking bigger than I was
after all. An adept who'd come up against a "meat"
troll like that would be unlikely to have more that 8
skill - otherwise that troll would have to be tougher
to be a challenge. :)

> > Sure, but how many adepts are going to get
Distance Strike? That thing costs.
>
> Are you going to specialize in unarmed combat,
or not? ;) (Contrary to popular opinion, you don't
need Killing Hands to specialize in Unarmed Combat, it
just lets you do lethal damage and pound on
low-to-medium sized spirits.)

Hey, I know that. I'm hanging out for when FASA
introduces Stunning Hands (or whatever you want to
call it) and lets an adept increase his basic stun
damage - I'd LOVE to have that for Void...

> IIRC, you can fit in 6 points of unarmed combat,
Distance Strike, and Wired 2 (what's it really called,
Increased Reflexes 2?) all on a starting character if
you geasa all of it. If you don't, you'll have to
give up the speed boost, and have a point to spend on
improved senses, stealth, or a point of Strength or
something.

Yeesh! Get it away from me!

Sure, you can do that, but what sane player would (who
isn't playing in a campaign that revolves around
gladiatorial combat)?

> > And still, you're looking at a starting character
or a meat ganger (the troll), holding a commonly
available item, versus an extremely powerful,
dedicated adept, and he's still only got even odds.
Not good at all.
>
> You've got the same problem if you put an adept
on one end of a football field, and a merc with an
assault rifle at the other. <shrug>

No, you have the same result. Different problem,
though.

To keep things comparable, that merc wouldn't be up
against an unarmed combat specialist, he'd be up
against an adept with a big gun. A second after that
fight started, my sniper, Void, would be scratching
his head, wondering what he's supposed to do for the
rest of the battle.

See the difference?

> I've found that the solution to allowing HK
movie style fighting involves not arming trolls with
reach 2 weaponry, and not having all that many trolls
anyway. They tend to get shot up. My low-grade
adversary is just a skilled human, who has an Essence
of 6, so that if there's anything left of him when the
PCs leave, my NPC healing brigade can pick up the
pieces more easily. As soon as they take that deadly,
my PCs seem to ignore them, and are usually trying to
exit as quickly as possible at the time. (It helps
that any NPC more than lightly wounded wants to leave
anyway.)
> Mark

Definitely one way to do it.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 131
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 06:37:08 -0800 (PST)
> > This time, Jack, can we say OUCH!?
>
> Yeah' I'll give you that it is showy and
entertaining to watch (and easier to get shot). I lean
towards the scenario where the guy is incapacitated on
the ground and no one knows who did it (especially
with today's lawyers). Trust me hearing a knee snap
does get you the "ouch" factor (plus they go down
whether they like it or not). Hits to the organs and
solar plexus make your opponent feel like they are
going to die (sometimes they're right too). The color
drains out of their face and they get that really
terrified "oh my god" look.

Which is always nice, but it all depends on the effect
you're trying to achieve - and whether the other guy's
armed or not. :)

> That reminds me of the scene in Rising Sun where
Sean Connery poked the muscle guy at the door in the
throat with a couple of fingers. Anyone remember that
one? Hmmmmm... subtlety.
> :)
>
> *Jack says to Doc, "no, do it like this..." :)

Subtlety?

Loser.

;)

Flash is EVERYTHING, man. :) Where would Zorro have
been if he'd tried to be subtle? :)

*Doc' kicks Jack in the gut and moves him around to
make him puke in a 'Z'. "Now THAT'S classy!"*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 132
From: baburabi baburabi@********.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 11:13:51 -0500
> > It's a TN penalty, or a TN bonus to the wielder.
> I'd certainly let them center away the penalty, as I
> didn't see MITS qualify "Centering vs. TN penalties"
> with any special cases.
>
> Good point. That one's never actually come up for me
> (playing or GMing). Personally, I think centering in a
> fight is crap - fits the rules, but not the spirit.
> The only time I think it ever fits is if you have a
> bit of time on your hands (for instance, a sniper).

actually i always seen it as depends on your centering skill choice, for
example if you use Kai (a standard in most martial arts) why not be able
able to use in any portion of the fight you want, but if you got something
like meditation most styles wouldnt let you do that in a close up fight

baburabi
Message no. 133
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 09:45:50 +1000
OPTIONAL RULE:
Here's another middle of the night after pizza inspiration. Bare hands
should be faster than big axes, right? There is already a reach modifier, so
what I propose is a speed modifier, that works in exactly the same way. Bare
hands, some short knives, finger spurs all get +1 speed modifier. Regular
swords, long knives, stun batons get no modifier (the same people who
misbalance fight mechanics with unfair martial arts rules also see the
katana and its friends as far superior to European swords, but that isn't
really true, so no speed modifier there). Large weapons like clubs, axes and
bigarse swords get -1 speed modifier. This would negate their reach modifier
unless they are used with a comparible weapon, but there you go.

A -1 speed modifier would be effective if using unconventional melee
weapons such as an assault rifle or a bar stool, or if other situations
would dictate.

Furthermore, every 8 points of specialised skill in a certain fighting
style or melee weapon confer a bonus point of speed. It is pointed out that
until you get 8 in a skill you aren't really considered that good. Besides,
only a physad would have 16 points in knee strikes. This also means that the
troll with the big axe can still have his reach modifiers if he is good with
his axe.

I would justify this speed modifier by saying that it should be
possible, if you are fast enough, to get inside a larger opponent's reach,
especially if you know what you are doing. I would also say that speed
modifiers are seperate from quickness or initiative/reaction. An olympic
sprinter that is always first off the blocks will still lose a fight with a
boxer. Perhaps a better name than speed modifiers would stop confusion. A
simmilar modifier might come into play if a dwarf and a troll were in a
fight. If the troll were the better, he could keep the dwarf away so that
they couldn't actually hit the troll, if the dwarf were the better, he could
slip in where the troll cant defend himself and do serious damage.

One more thing, I think the monowhip should have +1 speed, because it is a
fast weapon. Added to its reach modifier, it would become a truly feared
weapon.

I await your comments.
Message no. 134
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 12:54:19 -0500
Doc zinged:
> Which is always nice, but it all depends on the effect
> you're trying to achieve - and whether the other guy's
> armed or not. :)

I think the effect most runners are trying to achieve is not getting caught.
Higher profile is easier to identify. Though I concur that weapons do change
the equation.

> Loser.
>
> ;)

Jack pinches Doc's nose (using both hands to compensate for Troll factors).

;)

> Flash is EVERYTHING, man. :) Where would Zorro have
> been if he'd tried to be subtle? :)

Flash is great until it becomes gunflash. Doc, have you ever played Feng
Shui? That sounds more like your bag. Hell, if you haven't go get a copy and
read through it. The future junctions in that realm are very much like
Shadowrun. Any game where there is a target number listed for disarming a
nuclear missile while riding it can't be all bad.

> *Doc' kicks Jack in the gut and moves him around to
> make him puke in a 'Z'. "Now THAT'S classy!"*

*Jack flexes and Ki shouts, taking it like a man. Jack waits for Doc to stop
dancing and says, "want to get something to eat, my treat."

;)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 135
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 14:25:49 -0800 (PST)
> > > It's a TN penalty, or a TN bonus to the
wielder. I'd certainly let them center away the
penalty, as I didn't see MITS qualify "Centering vs.
TN penalties" with any special cases.
> >
> > Good point. That one's never actually come up for
me (playing or GMing). Personally, I think centering
in a fight is crap - fits the rules, but not the
spirit. The only time I think it ever fits is if you
have a bit of time on your hands (for instance, a
sniper).
>
> actually i always seen it as depends on your
centering skill choice, for example if you use Kai (a
standard in most martial arts) why not be able able to
use in any portion of the fight you want, but if you
got something like meditation most styles wouldnt let
you do that in a close up fight
>
> baburabi

Good point - and that would actually fit with a
martial artist-type adept. As I said though, the
situation's never come up for me in a game - I've
never encountered or played a character who used an
"instantaneous" centering technique (because
invariably they consist of loud screams) and kiais
tend to make the rest of your job a little harder
(letting out a loud shout just before you try to sneak
past the guard?). The only other centering skill that
I would deem appropriate for use in combat would be
singing and chanting, and I'd think that could be
seriously distracting - you have to pay SOME attention
to your song/chant, because if you bumble it, you
stuff your centering. As a GM, I'd do something like
giving the character an ADDITIONAL target number
penalty (+3 or +4 perhaps, maybe even more depending
on the level of the game), reduced by the level of
their skill (so once you got Singing/Chanting at
rating 3 or 4, you're considered experienced enough to
be able to sing/chant and fight at the same time).
This is just off the top of my head, though.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 136
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 16:19:06 -0800 (PST)
> I think the effect most runners are trying to
achieve is not getting caught. Higher profile is
easier to identify. Though I concur that weapons do
change the equation.

True - but I wasn't talking in runner terms. Oops. OT
again. :)

> Jack pinches Doc's nose (using both hands to
compensate for Troll factors).

*Doc's nose twitches and he sneezes...*

> Flash is great until it becomes gunflash. Doc, have
you ever played Feng Shui? That sounds more like your
bag. Hell, if you haven't go get a copy and read
through it. The future junctions in that realm are
very much like Shadowrun. Any game where there is a
target number listed for disarming a nuclear missile
while riding it can't be all bad.

Can't say I have. Looked at it, but the books are too
expensive (they only have hardcovers, which is good,
but I'm not going to pay $60 or more for a system that
I've never even tried out). Anyway, a) I was being
silly, b) I wasn't even THINKING in Shadowrun terms
when I made the comment and c) even if I was, this
would only be for a HK kung-fu movie-type game. I'm as
sneaky as the next guy when it comes to playing SR.

> > *Doc' kicks Jack in the gut and moves him around
to make him puke in a 'Z'. "Now THAT'S classy!"*
>
> *Jack flexes and Ki shouts, taking it like a man.
Jack waits for Doc to stop dancing and says, "want to
get something to eat, my treat."

*Doc' smiles down at Jack evilly and licks his lips.
"Did I mention I'm a lapsed Catholic?

"Oh, did I also mention I'm a practising cannibal?"*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 137
From: waylex1 waylex1@**************.co.uk
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 00:34:56 +0000
> An alternitive to the optional rule I thought up yesterday, what if you need
> an equal or higher fighting skill in order to get the reach advantage?. In
> other words, if the other guy's a better fighter, he'll just slip inside
> your weapon swing, the reach modifier is negated. If the two skills are
> equal or the troll with the axe is better, then reach advantages apply as
> normal. This has the advantage that it is easy and requires less dice rolls
> and rules lawyering.

I personally am a fan of the current rules, fighting an armed opponent is very
difficult when you are unarmed, thus reach seems to account for that well. If
you were to be more accurate it should be next to impossible to strike someone
with a superior skill to your if they have a weapon and you do not.

If its not broken don't fix it, and for me the system works, both quasi
realistically and mechanically.
Message no. 138
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 17:22:36 -0800 (PST)
> OPTIONAL RULE:
< BigSnip(TM) of speed modifiers rule...>
> I await your comments.

Hey, Simon, I like! Same with your "experience" rule.
Maybe not for a standard Shadowrun game, but it'd
certainly make a "kung-fu movie" game a possibility
now.

*Doc' pulls out a whetstone and starts sharpening up
his hands. "Lethal weapon, my ass!"

Doc' pauses.

"Now there's a thought..."

Doc' starts sharpening his butt...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 139
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 20:44:32 -0500
Doc sent:
> > *Jack flexes and Ki shouts, taking it like a man.
> Jack waits for Doc to stop dancing and says, "want to
> get something to eat, my treat."
>
> *Doc' smiles down at Jack evilly and licks his lips.
> "Did I mention I'm a lapsed Catholic?
>
> "Oh, did I also mention I'm a practising cannibal?"*

*Jack smiles, "That's ok, I can't touch bibles anymore, fire hazard and all.
Cannibal, huh, I thought they stopped selling Troll burgers six months after
the night of rage. But if you're in touch with a dealer I'm willing to
spring for it. You must not be too popular in the barrens though, but no
one's perfect."

:)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 140
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 07:07:08 EST
In a message dated 3/5/00 6:01:38 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
sfuller@******.com.au writes:

> An alternitive to the optional rule I thought up yesterday, what if you need
> an equal or higher fighting skill in order to get the reach advantage?. In
> other words, if the other guy's a better fighter, he'll just slip inside
> your weapon swing, the reach modifier is negated. If the two skills are
> equal or the troll with the axe is better, then reach advantages apply as
> normal. This has the advantage that it is easy and requires less dice rolls
> and rules lawyering.

Though it could work, IMO it would lend itself FAR faster towards "power
level munchkinism". Literally, you wind up with an escalation of
skills/power within a character, without consideration to the effects of the
game. Though it can work in some games, it doesn't work for all.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 141
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 20:48:17 -0800 (PST)
> > *Doc' smiles down at Jack evilly and licks his
lips. "Did I mention I'm a lapsed Catholic?
> >
> > "Oh, did I also mention I'm a practising
cannibal?"*
>
> *Jack smiles, "That's ok, I can't touch bibles
anymore, fire hazard and all. Cannibal, huh, I thought
they stopped selling Troll burgers six months after
the night of rage. But if you're in touch with a
dealer I'm willing to spring for it. You must not be
too popular in the barrens though, but no one's
perfect."

*Doc' laughs and gives in...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 142
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:35:58 -0500
I just looked at the evasion maneuver. What a load of crap! the point of
evading (as I was tought) isn't to run like hell. It's something like you
side-step your opponent's attack and move in to attack at the same time.
This sounds more like the herding maneuver or maybe zoning but it's not
quite the same. Maybe it should be a new maneuver?

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 143
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:25:14 EDT
In a message dated 4/18/00 12:18:35 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.com writes:

>
> I just looked at the evasion maneuver. What a load of crap! the point of
> evading (as I was tought) isn't to run like hell. It's something like you
> side-step your opponent's attack and move in to attack at the same time.
> This sounds more like the herding maneuver or maybe zoning but it's not
> quite the same. Maybe it should be a new maneuver?

Evading and FEINTING are not the same thing Alfredo.

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Message no. 144
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:30:08 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Alfredo B Alves wrote:

> I just looked at the evasion maneuver. What a load of crap! the point of
> evading (as I was tought) isn't to run like hell.

No, actually, the point of evading *is* to run like hell.

> It's something like you side-step your opponent's attack and move in to
> attack at the same time.

Actually, that's pretty much what I think of as a counterattack.

> This sounds more like the herding maneuver or maybe zoning but it's not
> quite the same. Maybe it should be a new maneuver?

It already is a maneuver, and has been since the very dawn of SR
time. If you want to slip past an opponent's attack to score a hit of
your own, that's pretty much the definition of a counterattack. If you
want to just get the hell out of the way, that's the definition of dodge.
If you want to run like hell, that's pretty much the definition of evade.
I don't really see a problem here.
In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Marc
Message no. 145
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:18:58 -0500
On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:25:14 EDT HHackerH@***.com writes:
<SNIP>
> Evading and FEINTING are not the same thing Alfredo.

I wasn't talking about feinting. Feinting is a faked attack to draw your
opponent's guard away from your real attack.

An evade-counterstrike is something else. You can evade in several
directions when you attack. If you evade toward the attack and to the
side, you are in a favorable position to attack.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 146
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 17:41:26 -0400 (EDT)
Marc Renouf <renouf@********.com> writes:
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, Alfredo B Alves wrote:
> > I just looked at the evasion maneuver. What a load of crap! the point of
> > evading (as I was tought) isn't to run like hell.
>
> No, actually, the point of evading *is* to run like hell.

I have to side with Marc here. Rename it what you want, but
the technique itself seems good enough. Your problem seems to be
centered around the word choice of the author vs. the word choice of
your instructor, not the technique.

Mark
Message no. 147
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Martial Arts
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 02:48:26 -0500
I was thinking about it and here's some preliminary ideas for a martial
arts system:

Take the maneuvers from CC and assign a Martial Arts Skill Level at which
they are acquired if the style includes them.

Make a list of which maneuvers are included in each style (if you
disagree with CC's list)

Create a set of advantages and disadvantages (such as learning a maneuver
a lower/higher skill level, extra dice, extra maneuvers, T# mods, etc)

Each Martial Art Style is represented by a seperate knowledge skill. When
using the Martial Art, the lower of the user's Unarmed Combat skill and
Martial Art Style Skill is used. The learned maneuvers are determined
from the knowledge skill.

Just some thoughts. i think this system doesn't really reduce the cost of
martial arts signifcantly (except at chargen) ... I'm sure I forgot
something as I was typing this while checking out Ken's link :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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