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Message no. 1
From: lunatec@*****.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: Martial Arts and Myth
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:49:07 -0500
> My original assertion that ninjutsu is an art borrowed
> from many others, and is by no means a single,
> cohesive style, still stands.
>
> ======> Korishinzo
> --I am a Geek, code or no code.

I am a student of Judo and Kenpo, or more precisely, Okinawan Shotokan. All
martial arts, according to myth, stem from a single art, that being Shaolin
Kung-Fu. Now in reality, they probably DID start from different styles, but
all forms of fighting are essentially the same thing (dons asbestos suit
awaiting napalm strikes), use the force the opponents body against itself.
Ninjitsu IS a bastard art, and not nearly as effective as Hollywood makes it
out to be. Steven Segal isn't as effective either...this comes from personal
experience (no, not me, but some of the troops that he taught). Most martial
arts weapons are simply farm implements that have been modified somewhat, or
not at all. The reason for that is that the Chinese and Japanese governments
banned serf classes from having any weapons, that is why martial arts became
so popular. Kenpo was originally taught to the Okinawans by the Chinese to
help them fight the Japanese. Then the Japanese brought their own styles to
Okinawa to help them fight the Chinese. The same went for the Koreans.

Lunatec
Message no. 2
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Martial Arts and Myth
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:58:09 -0700 (PDT)
> I am a student of Judo and Kenpo, or more precisely,
> Okinawan Shotokan.

Really? You, then, will understand the style of
martial art I practice better than most, I think. :)

www.karate-institute.com

> All
> martial arts, according to myth, stem from a single
> art, that being Shaolin
> Kung-Fu. Now in reality, they probably DID start
> from different styles, but
> all forms of fighting are essentially the same thing
> (dons asbestos suit
> awaiting napalm strikes), use the force the
> opponents body against itself.
> Ninjitsu IS a bastard art, and not nearly as
> effective as Hollywood makes it
> out to be. Steven Segal isn't as effective
> either...this comes from personal
> experience (no, not me, but some of the troops that
> he taught). Most martial
> arts weapons are simply farm implements that have
> been modified somewhat, or
> not at all. The reason for that is that the Chinese
> and Japanese governments
> banned serf classes from having any weapons, that is
> why martial arts became
> so popular. Kenpo was originally taught to the
> Okinawans by the Chinese to
> help them fight the Japanese. Then the Japanese
> brought their own styles to
> Okinawa to help them fight the Chinese. The same
> went for the Koreans.

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. No arguments on any count.
Well, one. Steven Segal in the movies is not the
Steven Segal of the dojo. Nothing he does in the
movies is martial arts. Like Bruce Lee before him, he
is performing. The performance is very athletic, and
derived from his martial arts experience. In the end,
it is all showmanship. The human eye is not fast
enough for the brain to record, digest, and be
entertained by real self-defense techniques. It would
all be an indistinct blur of motion, over far too
quickly more the average movie goer to enjoy.
However, at one time, Steven Segal was in Japan
training with real martial artists and practicing real
techniques. Hence, he is, at least to some degree, a
capable martial artist. Now, he may not be a capable
teacher, which would explain the difficulty other
students found in learning from him. Movie ninjas,
OTOH, are nothing but Hollywood fantasy. :)

======Korishinzo
--Query: If the American government banned personal
weapons, would a John Deer tractor really be all that
effective for a peasant uprising? :p

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Message no. 3
From: lunatec@*****.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: Martial Arts and Myth
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 15:20:30 -0500
> Really? You, then, will understand the style of
> martial art I practice better than most, I think. :)
>
> www.karate-institute.com
>

So it is more circular in it's movements? More sweeping styled, less linear?
How does that deal with the circular judo? I would love to see this in
action, sounds really fluid!

I still hate Segal.

Lunatec
Message no. 4
From: renouf@********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: Martial Arts and Myth
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:42:06 -0400 (EDT)
Korishinzo wrote:

> > My original assertion that ninjutsu is an art borrowed
> > from many others, and is by no means a single,
> > cohesive style, still stands.

Perhaps, but that assertion is based on a few assumptions, chief
of which is that "ninjutsu" is a single art. It is not. True
"ninjutsu"
is much different from the misconception that most people have (thanks to
Hollywood). Historically speaking, the body of knowledge commonly known
as "ninjutsu" was loosely organized into 18 concepts, jointly called the
ninpo bugei jyuhappan. Which particular 18 skills went into this mix
varied by region, by time period, and by school. Typically, the ninpo
bugei jyuhappan involved skills that run from the mundane like tenmon
(meteorology) and chimon (geography) to the generally useful like bajutsu
(horse arts) to the sneaky like hensojutsu (disguise) or shurikenjutsu
(thrown weapons) to the downright rude like kajutsu (the gentle art of
arson).
Further, many traditional (koryu or kobudo) schools of budo
contained elements of ninjutsu. It is said that even Tenshin Shoden
Katori Shinto Ryu (the oldest documented martial art extant in Japan) has
an entire section in its scrolls that deals with "ninjutsu" principles.
And herein lies the rub: what you or I would think of as
"ninjutsu" is not what a Warring States period daimyo would think of as
ninjutsu. Put simply, ninjutsu pertains to virtually any unorthodox skill
which has uses in warfare. Tenmon is a perfect example: knowing that it's
going to rain (or not rain) all day may give you an edge over your enemies
because it may let you move or not move your army depending on the
impending weather. Knowing that weather conditions are ripe for fog the
following morning could allow you to outflank your enemy unseen.
As a result, the "ninja" is not necessarily the sneaky,
superhumanly skilled assassination machine, but might be a quiet old man
who has a keen eye for taking in environmental details (temperature,
wind speed and direction, cloud type, altitude of flying birds, etc). He
may not be a death-dealing badass, but his skills will still be of
tremendous use on the battlefield.

On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Danyeal De La Luna wrote:

> Ninjitsu IS a bastard art, and not nearly as effective as Hollywood
> makes it out to be.

I assert that you actually have no idea what ninjutsu really *is*,
and thus have little basis for which to judge its efficacy.
That said, there are a lot of "ninja-flakes" around the country
purporting to teach you the "secrets of the ninja" or "how to be a
death-dealing badass in 3 easy steps." Virtually all of this *is*
bastardized crap. I've lost count of the number of Kung Fu and Tae Kwon
Do instructors I've seen just making shit up and passing it off as
ninjutsu. Most of them have no clue, but the consuming public has even
less clue, so they can get away with it.
That's not to say that there isn't authentic budo training out
there that addresses ninjutsu topics. The Bujinkan, Genbukan, and
Jinenkan all teach skills from various ninjutsu ryuha. They also teach a
number of Sengoku Jidai and Edo-era samurai bugei ryuha. These arts are
most certainly *not* bastardized, and are *quite* effective for what they
are designed to do (namely kill people on the battlefield).
Unfortunately, a lot of the instructors in said organizations also fall
into the "ninja-flake" bin. It's an unfortunate ramification of the '80's
ninja boom.
Still, the real information is out there if you're willing to dig
hard enough and separate the wheat from the chaff. Most of it is out of
date (being instructed in the fine art of impersonating a travelling
kabuki player or the knack of making tools to break Sengoku Jidai era
locks doesn't do me a whole lot of good), but it is interesting in a
historical context. If you're interested, look up the Ninpiden, the
Shoninki, and (most importantly) the Bansenshukai. You may have some
trouble procuring translations of them, but they are fascinating from a
historical perspective.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

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Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> Assistant List Administrator
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David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://hlair.dumpshock.com/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 5
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Martial Arts and Myth
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:57:26 -0700 (PDT)
> > www.karate-institute.com

> So it is more circular in it's movements? More
> sweeping styled, less linear?
> How does that deal with the circular judo? I would
> love to see this in
> action, sounds really fluid!

The style has a fairly even balance between linear and
circular. The kenpo, jujitsu, and judo all bring a
circular influence, while the Japanese karate is very
linear. The linear techniques are learned early, as a
foundation, largely because of their simplicity. As a
karateka progresses, they are exposed to more and more
of the circular techniques, until they move back and
forth between the two smoothly. For example: last
night in class we started with a simple evasion and
hard shuto uke (knife hand block) to deflect the
attack. We stepped to the outside of the attackers
centerline, so our block pushed their attack across
their torso to prevent the other hand from delivering
a second attack easily. A fairly simple defense.
However, because you have not secured any hold on your
attacker, they are free to retreat, regroup, and
attack again. This means that to counterattack, you
still have to deliver a technique with appreciable
reach, like a kick. So, we took the initial defense a
step further. Executing the same block, we altered
the focus a bit. Rather than a hard snapping block to
the wrist or forearm, we turned it into a softer
redirect that kept our hand in contact with their arm.
As soon as we had achieved our primary goal of not
getting hit, we moved to a secondary goal of
maintaining control. With the fingers of our blocking
hand, we grabbed the attackers wrist, while
simultaniously bringing our other hand across our body
to grab their elbow and pullit toward us. This
created a 90 degreee angle at their elbow. Keeping
their hand stationary, we rolled the elbow up and
forward, creating pressure on the shoulder joint. Our
opponent fell neatly forward to their face in attempt
to alleviate the pressure on their shoulder. As they
hit the floor, we brought their wrist into their side
and pinned them there, face down. The entire
technique was very fluid and circular, with not a
single hard strike. The entire style progresses like
that, from basic, fast, linear defenses into very
fluid, advanced techniques that place ever increasing
emphasis on the jujitsu and judo.

> I still hate Segal.

LOL...you are not alone in that.

> Lunatec

======Korishinzo
--maybe you should fly in for class some time...we
have a nice airport :)

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Message no. 6
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Martial Arts and Myth
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:46:51 -0700 (PDT)
--- Marc Renouf <renouf@********.com> wrote:
> Korishinzo wrote:

> > > My original assertion that ninjutsu is an art
> > > borrowed from many others, and is by no means a
> > > single, cohesive style, still stands.

> Perhaps, but that assertion is based on a few
> assumptions, chief of which is that "ninjutsu" is a
> single art. It is not. True "ninjutsu"
> is much different from the misconception that most
> people have (thanks to
> Hollywood). Historically speaking, the body of
> knowledge commonly known
> as "ninjutsu" was loosely organized into 18
> concepts, jointly called the
> ninpo bugei jyuhappan. Which particular 18 skills
> went into this mix
> varied by region, by time period, and by school.
> Typically, the ninpo
> bugei jyuhappan involved skills that run from the
> mundane like tenmon
> (meteorology) and chimon (geography) to the
> generally useful like bajutsu
> (horse arts) to the sneaky like hensojutsu
> (disguise) or shurikenjutsu
> (thrown weapons) to the downright rude like kajutsu
> (the gentle art of
> arson).
> Further, many traditional (koryu or kobudo) schools
> of budo contained elements of ninjutsu. It is said
> that even Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (the
> oldest documented martial art extant in Japan) has
> an entire section in its scrolls that deals with
> "ninjutsu" principles.
> And herein lies the rub: what you or I would think
> of as "ninjutsu" is not what a Warring States period
> daimyo would think of as
> ninjutsu. Put simply, ninjutsu pertains to
> virtually any unorthodox skill
> which has uses in warfare. Tenmon is a perfect
> example: knowing that it's
> going to rain (or not rain) all day may give you an
> edge over your enemies
> because it may let you move or not move your army
> depending on the
> impending weather. Knowing that weather conditions
> are ripe for fog the
> following morning could allow you to outflank your
> enemy unseen.
> As a result, the "ninja" is not necessarily the
> sneaky,
> superhumanly skilled assassination machine, but
> might be a quiet old man
> who has a keen eye for taking in environmental
> details (temperature,
> wind speed and direction, cloud type, altitude of
> flying birds, etc). He
> may not be a death-dealing badass, but his skills
> will still be of
> tremendous use on the battlefield.

*beams* I KNEW we would pry a response out of you
eventually. You owe me email mister! ;)

I am well aware of the depth and scope of "ninjutsu".
Not as well as you are, granted. :) My use of
ninjutsu was strictly in reference to combat style,
which differed in the early days of the ninja from
clan to clan, and even from individual to individual.
My esteemed partner in that debate/thread (one GZ) was
only referring to the hand to hand fighting techniques
of ninjutsu. I was taking issue with his statements
regarding those. Meteorology never came up. However,
the secondary objective of keeping that thread alive
succeeeded nicely. Welcome back, hope this means
you'll be posting a bit. ;)

> On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Danyeal De La Luna wrote:
>
> > Ninjitsu IS a bastard art, and not nearly as
> effective as Hollywood
> > makes it out to be.
>
> I assert that you actually have no idea what
> ninjutsu really *is*,
> and thus have little basis for which to judge its
> efficacy.
> That said, there are a lot of "ninja-flakes" around
> the country
> purporting to teach you the "secrets of the ninja"
> or "how to be a
> death-dealing badass in 3 easy steps." Virtually
> all of this *is*
> bastardized crap. I've lost count of the number of
> Kung Fu and Tae Kwon
> Do instructors I've seen just making shit up and
> passing it off as
> ninjutsu. Most of them have no clue, but the
> consuming public has even
> less clue, so they can get away with it.
> That's not to say that there isn't authentic budo
> training out
> there that addresses ninjutsu topics. The Bujinkan,
> Genbukan, and
> Jinenkan all teach skills from various ninjutsu
> ryuha. They also teach a
> number of Sengoku Jidai and Edo-era samurai bugei
> ryuha. These arts are
> most certainly *not* bastardized, and are *quite*
> effective for what they
> are designed to do (namely kill people on the
> battlefield).
> Unfortunately, a lot of the instructors in said
> organizations also fall
> into the "ninja-flake" bin. It's an unfortunate
> ramification of the '80's
> ninja boom.
> Still, the real information is out there if you're
> willing to dig
> hard enough and separate the wheat from the chaff.
> Most of it is out of
> date (being instructed in the fine art of
> impersonating a travelling
> kabuki player or the knack of making tools to break
> Sengoku Jidai era
> locks doesn't do me a whole lot of good), but it is
> interesting in a
> historical context. If you're interested, look up
> the Ninpiden, the
> Shoninki, and (most importantly) the Bansenshukai.
> You may have some
> trouble procuring translations of them, but they are
> fascinating from a
> historical perspective.

Ahem...yea. And stuff. Anyone want to bet that Marc
may or may not have studied this topic? ;p

> Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

======Korishinzo
--*uses "ninja-stealth" to hide from
counter-attack*....no, really, I got these cute litte
jammies with 1's and 0's all over 'em...I can hide
among the data ;p

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Message no. 7
From: john@*****.net (John Constable)
Subject: Martial Arts and Myth
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:26:24 +0100 (BST)
On Fri, 18 Oct 2002, Ice Heart wrote:

some snipping, apologies!

> forth between the two smoothly. For example: last
> night in class we started with a simple evasion and
> hard shuto uke (knife hand block) to deflect the
> attack. We stepped to the outside of the attackers
> centerline, so our block pushed their attack across
> their torso to prevent the other hand from delivering
> a second attack easily. A fairly simple defense.
> However, because you have not secured any hold on your
> attacker, they are free to retreat, regroup, and
> attack again. This means that to counterattack, you
> still have to deliver a technique with appreciable
> reach, like a kick. So, we took the initial defense a
> step further. Executing the same block, we altered
> the focus a bit. Rather than a hard snapping block to
> the wrist or forearm, we turned it into a softer
> redirect that kept our hand in contact with their arm.
> As soon as we had achieved our primary goal of not
> getting hit, we moved to a secondary goal of
> maintaining control. With the fingers of our blocking
> hand, we grabbed the attackers wrist, while
> simultaniously bringing our other hand across our body
> to grab their elbow and pullit toward us. This
> created a 90 degreee angle at their elbow. Keeping
> their hand stationary, we rolled the elbow up and
> forward, creating pressure on the shoulder joint. Our
> opponent fell neatly forward to their face in attempt
> to alleviate the pressure on their shoulder. As they
> hit the floor, we brought their wrist into their side
> and pinned them there, face down. The entire
> technique was very fluid and circular, with not a
> single hard strike. The entire style progresses like
> that, from basic, fast, linear defenses into very
> fluid, advanced techniques that place ever increasing
> emphasis on the jujitsu and judo.
>

I know this is getting massively off-topic, but the technique is also a
pretty good version (at least, as I envisage it from the description
:-) of "Lieh", or split, turning into "Lu" or roll-back from yang
style
Tai Chi Chuan. Which just goes to show that theres only so many ways to
bend, twist, contort and mangle the human body optimally, "The Best
Martial Art" flamewars (sorry, debates ;-) notwithstanding (which I *DO
NOT* want to start here <grin>)...

--
john@*****.net
Chaos reigns within.
Reflect, repent, and reboot.
Order shall return
Message no. 8
From: robertennew@*****.com.au (Robert Ennew)
Subject: Martial Arts and Myth
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:30:03 +1000 (EST)
--- Danyeal De La Luna <lunatec@*****.com> wrote: > >
Really? You, then, will understand the style of
> > martial art I practice better than most, I think.
> :)
> >
> > www.karate-institute.com
> >
>
> So it is more circular in it's movements? More
> sweeping styled, less linear?
> How does that deal with the circular judo? I would
> love to see this in
> action, sounds really fluid!
>
> I still hate Segal.
>
> Lunatec
>
I hate Slick Segal too,he's a fat bastard & I think
he's a f$#ken' f$g%t. The word on the street though
was that he was ex CIA wanting to leave. everyone
knows you can't just leave ,you know about state
secrets, He was smart though making him self public
via a acting career so the nasty fraggin' CIA couldn't
bump him off without repercussions. I've got to give
him credit for that. (GZ)


http://careers.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Careers
- 1,000's of jobs waiting online for you!
Message no. 9
From: Christian@********.org (Christian Casavant)
Subject: Martial Arts and Myth
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 07:33:08 +0000 (GMT)
> I hate Slick Segal too,he's a fat bastard & I think
> he's a f$#ken' f$g%t. The word on the street though
> was that he was ex CIA wanting to leave. everyone
> knows you can't just leave ,you know about state
> secrets, He was smart though making him self public
> via a acting career so the nasty fraggin' CIA couldn't
> bump him off without repercussions. I've got to give
> him credit for that. (GZ)

Oh, come on! Tell us what you really think!

I believe the rumours of his association with the CIA are false. In 1968
he moved to Japan where I believe he lived until 1986. He taught Aikido to
celebrities including Michael Ovitz, who was certain he could turn anyone
into a celebrity thus Steven Seagal was born.

It's possible he taught defense and restraint tactics to agents of the
CIA, but that's most likely the extent of his affiliation.

I don't like or respect him much either. He certainly doesnt practice
what he preaches but I believe one thing. He used to taunt Yaks into
attacking him when he lived in Japan. He has probably used his Aikido in
anger and thus knows what it's like to fight.

Xian.

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