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Message no. 1
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:19:53 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 08, 2000 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: Martial Arts (Re:centering )


>On Tue, 7 Mar 2000 22:34:11 -0800 (PST) Rand
Ratinac?><docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
><SNIP>
>> *Doc' wonders whether Mime would take off as a
>> centering skill...
>>
>> Ares Internal Memo: New rule for security personnel.
>> Don't shoot the mage first - shoot the mime first.*
>
>From: Damien Knight
>Re: Mime Memo
>
>I just recieved notice of an internal memo instructing personel to shoot
>mimes before other intruders. I want to make it clear that I want every
>mime encountered to be taken alive. A mime is a terrible thing to waste.
> Damien Knight
> CEO, Ares
>
>--
From: Chief of Intelligence
Re: Mime Memo

With respect, Mr Knight, this may be a waste of time. You can never get them
to talk.
T. Quemada
Chief of Intelligence
Message no. 2
From: ROGER PERRY smithsguild@*******.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 22:09:47 GMT
Greetings, new to the list but heres my 2 cents worth...

Wasn't there a geas that allows use of somantic gestures? (kuji-kuri or
something similar sounding?)my book is currently unavailable.

These would seem perfect for use with centering for martial arts...

A ritualized hand flourish before use of killing hands seems quite in
keeping with the flavor and role play of a phys.ad.

-Lilblue-
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Message no. 3
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:54:06 -0800 (PST)
> Greetings, new to the list but heres my 2 cents
worth...
>
> Wasn't there a geas that allows use of somantic
gestures? (kuji-kuri or something similar sounding?)my
book is currently unavailable.
>
> These would seem perfect for use with centering for
martial arts...
>
> A ritualized hand flourish before use of killing
hands seems quite in keeping with the flavor and role
play of a phys.ad.
>
> -Lilblue-

Sure, that fits, but there are still problems. I don't
know about you, but I doubt most people would be able
to take the time in a middle of a fistfight
(especially at the speed they're supposed to go in SR)
to make a fancy gesture with his hands.

As a GM, I'd rule something along these lines - to use
kuji-kiri centering in melee, you need to a) disengage
(which entails winning a phase of unarmed combat - you
don't do any damage, you just get away from your
opponent) and b) making your centering test. That all
takes one complex action. If your test works, you can
use the benefits of it in the next phase of melee you
fight (whether you or your opponent is the attacker) -
if you lose THAT phase of combat, then you lose your
centering bonus and have to disengage again if you
want to centre again.

And don't forget, you need to have empty hands to do
this kind of gesture (the individual finger movements
are important, so there's no way you could do it while
holding a gun or a sword etc., which would be
troublesome if you wanted to centre for armed or
ranged combat...

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 4
From: Brian Moore airionis@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:07:54 -0800 (PST)
--- Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> wrote:
> > A ritualized hand flourish before use of killing
> > hands seems quite in keeping with the flavor and role
> > play of a phys.ad.
>
> Sure, that fits, but there are still problems. I don't
> know about you, but I doubt most people would be able
> to take the time in a middle of a fistfight
> (especially at the speed they're supposed to go in SR)
> to make a fancy gesture with his hands.

Each round of combat isn't supposed to be a single swing
IIRC, but more of a give and take, Ho!, Ha!, spin, parry,
thrust, BOING. But I agree. You have time to strike a
pose, but not contort your fingers into a puzzle and wiggle
three fingers.

> As a GM, I'd rule something along these lines - to use
> kuji-kiri centering in melee, you need to a) disengage
> (which entails winning a phase of unarmed combat - you
> don't do any damage, you just get away from your
> opponent) and b) making your centering test. That all
> takes one complex action. If your test works, you can
> use the benefits of it in the next phase of melee you
> fight (whether you or your opponent is the attacker) -
> if you lose THAT phase of combat, then you lose your
> centering bonus and have to disengage again if you
> want to centre again.

Being knocked back is just as good as disengaging. Good
guy is losing and gets knocked for a loop. He Centers
(against penalties from his wounds) and jumps back into
the fight.

> And don't forget, you need to have empty hands to do
> this kind of gesture (the individual finger movements
> are important, so there's no way you could do it while
> holding a gun or a sword etc., which would be
> troublesome if you wanted to centre for armed or
> ranged combat...

There are other skills which wouldn't have this restriction.
Perhaps the Kata skill could be used to Center by striking
a specific pose associated with that Kata. I'd call that
a simple action. People do this in movies ALL the time.

====Brian Moore
Gamer. I play everything.
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Message no. 5
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 22:34:11 -0800 (PST)
> > > A ritualized hand flourish before use of killing
hands seems quite in keeping with the flavor and role
play of a phys.ad.
> >
> > Sure, that fits, but there are still problems. I
don't know about you, but I doubt most people would be
able to take the time in a middle of a fistfight
especially at the speed they're supposed to go in SR)
to make a fancy gesture with his hands.
>
> Each round of combat isn't supposed to be a single
swing IIRC, but more of a give and take, Ho!, Ha!,
spin, parry, thrust, BOING. But I agree. You have
time to strike a pose, but not contort your fingers
into a puzzle and wiggle three fingers.

That's more of a D&D thing (with combat phases taking
three seconds, there ain't much time for a lot of
posing and Ho-ing and Ha-ing). :)

> > As a GM, I'd rule something along these lines - to
use kuji-kiri centering in melee, you need to
a)disengage (which entails winning a phase of unarmed
combat - you don't do any damage, you just get away
from your opponent) and b) making your centering test.
That all takes one complex action. If your test works,
you can use the benefits of it in the next phase of
melee you fight (whether you or your opponent is the
attacker) - if you lose THAT phase of combat, then you
lose your centering bonus and have to disengage again
if you want to centre again.
>
> Being knocked back is just as good as disengaging.
Good guy is losing and gets knocked for a loop. He
Centers (against penalties from his wounds) and jumps
back into the fight.

Sure - but I'd require an unopposed skill test (your
melee skill versus his). Remember, you're the one
who's reeling, so unless you're good, he'll be able to
follow up into you and keep pounding you - or you'll
just go down, rather than back.

> > And don't forget, you need to have empty hands to
do this kind of gesture (the individual finger
movements are important, so there's no way you could
do it while holding a gun or a sword etc., which would
be troublesome if you wanted to centre for armed or
ranged combat...
>
> There are other skills which wouldn't have this
restriction. Perhaps the Kata skill could be used to
Center by striking a specific pose associated with
that Kata. I'd call that a simple action. People do
this in movies ALL the time.
> Brian Moore

Confucious say, "Man who pose get kick in nose."

The movies are fine, but like I said, you still have
to keep in mind the time restrictions of a SR combat
round. Those guys in the movies aren't posing while
the other guy's laying into them.

The way you COULD do this is to do it BEFORE the first
combat round. That would represent the posturing that
goes on before a fight in martial arts movies - and if
the other guy isn't too quick, he'll think you're a
poser showing off rather than an adept getting ready
to kick his butt.

*Doc' wonders whether Mime would take off as a
centering skill...

Ares Internal Memo: New rule for security personnel.
Don't shoot the mage first - shoot the mime first.*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 6
From: Damian Robinson robinson_dg@*********.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 17:50:55 +1000
</Lurk>

Rand Ratinac wrote:
<Snip serious bit...>
>
> *Doc' wonders whether Mime would take off as a
> centering skill...
>
> Ares Internal Memo: New rule for security personnel.
> Don't shoot the mage first - shoot the mime first.*

"So, the robot body looks fairly human, but doesn't speak.
It's chest is filled with a unidirectional fragmentation
explosive. Lemme guess, you're going to call it a
'Claymore Mime' aren't you, you sick f*cker."

Jonathan Bastow, Rec.games.frp.cyber, at least a week ago...

<Lurk>
--
Cheers
Damian & Leigh-anne

Home Page:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dreamworld/4808/

ICQ?
His #14030875
Hers #37896626

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can
adequately be explained by stupidity.
Message no. 7
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:10:21 -0800 (PST)
> </Lurk>
>
> Rand Ratinac wrote:
> <Snip serious bit...>
> >
> > *Doc' wonders whether Mime would take off as a
centering skill...
> >
> > Ares Internal Memo: New rule for security
personnel. Don't shoot the mage first - shoot the mime
first.*
>
> "So, the robot body looks fairly human, but doesn't
speak. It's chest is filled with a unidirectional
fragmentation explosive. Lemme guess, you're going to
call it a 'Claymore Mime' aren't you, you sick
f*cker."
>
> Jonathan Bastow, Rec.games.frp.cyber, at least a
week ago...
>
> <Lurk>
> --
> Cheers
> Damian & Leigh-anne

*rotflol*

Ooooo, that's good...;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

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Message no. 8
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 02:06:29 -0800
On Tue, 7 Mar 2000 22:34:11 -0800 (PST) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> *Doc' wonders whether Mime would take off as a
> centering skill...
>
> Ares Internal Memo: New rule for security personnel.
> Don't shoot the mage first - shoot the mime first.*

From: Damien Knight
Re: Mime Memo

I just recieved notice of an internal memo instructing personel to shoot
mimes before other intruders. I want to make it clear that I want every
mime encountered to be taken alive. A mime is a terrible thing to waste.
Damien Knight
CEO, Ares

--
D. Ghost
A Mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems
--Paul Erdos

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Message no. 9
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 17:02:48 -0800 (PST)
> > *Doc' wonders whether Mime would take off as a
centering skill...
> >
> > Ares Internal Memo: New rule for security
personnel. Don't shoot the mage first - shoot the mime
first.*
>
> From: Damien Knight
> Re: Mime Memo
>
> I just recieved notice of an internal memo
instructing personel to shoot mimes before other
intruders. I want to make it clear that I want every
mime encountered to be taken alive. A mime is a
terrible thing to waste.
> Damien Knight
> CEO, Ares

*lol*

Oh, you're a bad man, Al. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

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Message no. 10
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 17:08:54 -0800 (PST)
> >> *Doc' wonders whether Mime would take off as a
centering skill...
> >>
> >> Ares Internal Memo: New rule for security
personnel. Don't shoot the mage first - shoot the mime
first.*
> >
> >From: Damien Knight
> >Re: Mime Memo
> >
> >I just recieved notice of an internal memo
instructing personel to shoot mimes before other
intruders. I want to make it clear that I want every
>mime encountered to be taken alive. A mime is a
terrible thing to waste.
> > Damien
Knight
> > CEO, Ares
> >
> >--
> From: Chief of Intelligence
> Re: Mime Memo
>
> With respect, Mr Knight, this may be a waste of
time. You can never get them to talk.
> T. Quemada
> Chief of
Intelligence

*Doc' howls and slaps the ground helplessly*

Stop it! Please, stop! Mercy! You're killing me!

:)

Let me guess...Mr. Quemada, first name Tor? ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

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Message no. 11
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 19:08:36 -0500 (EST)
Excerpts from ShadowRN: 7-Mar-100 Re: Martial Arts (Re:center.. by
Rand=@***
> Sure, that fits, but there are still problems. I don't
> know about you, but I doubt most people would be able
> to take the time in a middle of a fistfight
> (especially at the speed they're supposed to go in SR)
> to make a fancy gesture with his hands.

IMHO, two of the more common skills for Centering in Melee would be
Gesture and kiai (Not sure how to spell that, my style was Korean).
Gesturing as part of Centering in Melee might not necessarily involve
fancy movements during combat, but perhaps a ritualistic entering of a
fighting stance before combat begins. (In other words, don't get taken
by surprise!) It's taught in many styles that a kiai as you strike
helps you focus and do more damage, as well as having a chance of
distracting your opponent.
Other centering skills seen might be meditation (to represent
looking for "the zone" described by many athletes. A downside to this
is that you might lose the zone if you take damage or are knocked on
your ass.), and litany, represented by a language skill (either trash
talking or what you see from the sniper from "Saving Private Ryan".)
Hmm. It occurs to me that the Centering skills I'm describing would
also work as Geasa, but I assure you I'm not mistaking the two.

As a part the rules [don't cut me off for that line! :)], and
reading into the intent of the rules, I've always felt that Physads
Centering was given mainly for the ability to take Centering vs. Stealth
and Centering vs. Melee. If you're going to allow Centering vs. Melee,
these seem like valid and probably Centering options to me.

Mark
Message no. 12
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 21:26:23 -0800 (PST)
> IMHO, two of the more common skills for
Centering in Melee would be Gesture and kiai (Not sure
how to spell that, my style was Korean). Gesturing as
part of Centering in Melee might not necessarily
involve fancy movements during combat, but perhaps a
ritualistic entering of a fighting stance before
combat begins. (In other words, don't get taken by
surprise!)

I believe I already suggested that. Centering,
however, is only effective for a single action (or
phase). So that pose before a fight is nice, but it
won't help you unless you take the goon down with your
first hit.

> It's taught in many styles that a kiai as you strike
helps you focus and do more damage, as well as having
a chance of distracting your opponent.

Again, which is fine, but noisy. As I said, I've never
encountered it either as a player or a GM, because the
adepts I've played/GMed have all been more concerned
with stealth.

> Other centering skills seen might be meditation
(to represent looking for "the zone" described by many
athletes. A downside to this is that you might lose
the zone if you take damage or are knocked on your
ass.)

Like I said, you lose it after your first strike.
Centering is not an ongoing thing unless you continue
the centering action.

> As a part the rules [don't cut me off for that
line! :)], and reading into the intent of the rules,
I've always felt that Physads Centering was given
mainly for the ability to take Centering vs. Stealth
and Centering vs. Melee. If you're going to allow
Centering vs. Melee, these seem like valid and
probably Centering options to me.
> Mark

Perhaps (for me, centering versus stealth, athletics
and ranged have been the big ones) - and I WOULD allow
them. There would just be appropriate drawbacks (you
can't strike a pose or make a funny hand gesture in
the middle of a fight, singing or chanting distracts
you, at least until it becomes second nature etc.).
I'm not trying to overly penalise them, but I've got a
mental block against allowing things that are TOO
unrealistic. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 13
From: shadowdork@****.com shadowdork@****.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 6:52:17 GMT
My coyote shaman has a howling skill. in which he gets a bonus for howling like he was
baying at the moon, you could use any vocalization for this like grunting or roaring or
wailing, it makes it fun to roleplay, and adds excitment to typical encounters.


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Message no. 14
From: ROGER PERRY smithsguild@*******.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 20:48:26 GMT
> IMHO, two of the more common skills for
Centering in Melee would be Gesture and kiai (Not sure
how to spell that, my style was Korean). Gesturing as
part of Centering in Melee might not necessarily
involve fancy movements during combat, but perhaps a
ritualistic entering of a fighting stance before
combat begins. (In other words, don't get taken by
surprise!)

This is more in line with my thought as well...
Running thru a simple kata before (or during a break in)
the combat.

>I believe I already suggested that. Centering,
however, is only effective for a single action (or
phase). So that pose before a fight is nice, but it
won't help you unless you take the goon down with your
first hit.

If 'good' enough one hit is all the edge one needs.

>It's taught in many styles that a kiai as you strike
helps you focus and do more damage, as well as having
a chance of distracting your opponent.

>Again, which is fine, but noisy. As I said, I've never
encountered it either as a player or a GM, because the
adepts I've played/GMed have all been more concerned
with stealth.

Agreed... but no more noisy than some weapons characters choose
to carry. If it comes to a fight oftentimes stealth goes
out the window to ensure survivability. If a firefight breaks
out you can bet more often than not the Corp-Sec aren't using
silencers or supressers because they 'want' everyone to know something has
gone wrong.

> Other centering skills seen might be meditation
(to represent looking for "the zone" described by many
athletes. A downside to this is that you might lose
the zone if you take damage or are knocked on your
ass.)

>Like I said, you lose it after your first strike.
Centering is not an ongoing thing unless you continue
the centering action.

Working katas as you fight is not as uncommon as you
would think... the trick is changing from one to another
to suit changes in your opponents tactics.

> As a part the rules [don't cut me off for that
line! :)], and reading into the intent of the rules,
I've always felt that Physads Centering was given
mainly for the ability to take Centering vs. Stealth
and Centering vs. Melee. If you're going to allow
Centering vs. Melee, these seem like valid and
probably Centering options to me.
>Mark

>Perhaps (for me, centering versus stealth, athletics
and ranged have been the big ones) - and I WOULD allow
them. There would just be appropriate drawbacks (you
can't strike a pose or make a funny hand gesture in
the middle of a fight, singing or chanting distracts
you, at least until it becomes second nature etc.).
I'm not trying to overly penalise them, but I've got a
mental block against allowing things that are TOO
unrealistic. :)

Thats the great thing about RP, don't always have to agree
on specifics just our right to disagree...
What makes sense in MY campaign only has to work in MY campaign
(*G*)
Lilblue
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Message no. 15
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 17:20:31 -0800 (PST)
> This is more in line with my thought as well...
Running thru a simple kata before (or during a break
in) the combat.

Personally, I don't think you're GOING to get a
sufficient break in most SR combat, unless you a) make
time (by disengaging, running away etc.), or b) you're
in a fight with a real traditionalist or a gang who're
into posturing.

> >Again, which is fine, but noisy. As I said, I've
never encountered it either as a player or a GM,
because the adepts I've played/GMed have all been more
concerned with stealth.
>
> Agreed... but no more noisy than some weapons
characters choose to carry. If it comes to a fight
oftentimes stealth goes out the window to ensure
survivability. If a firefight breaks out you can bet
more often than not the Corp-Sec aren't using
silencers or supressers because they 'want' everyone
to know something has gone wrong.

Errr...that's not what I'm talking about. Sure, a
shout in a fight is no big deal - but a shout when
trying to sneak past a guard? Remember, you use the
same centering skill whether you're punching or
slinking...

> Working katas as you fight is not as uncommon as you
would think... the trick is changing from one to
another to suit changes in your opponents tactics.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. (See my
previous comment about time limitations in SR combat.)

> Thats the great thing about RP, don't always have to
agree on specifics just our right to disagree... What
makes sense in MY campaign only has to work in MY
campaign (*G*)
> Lilblue

Quite right.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 16
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:39:51 -0500 (EST)
Excerpts from ShadowRN: 9-Mar-100 Re: Martial Arts (Re:center.. by
Rand=@***
> I believe I already suggested that. Centering,
> however, is only effective for a single action (or
> phase). So that pose before a fight is nice, but it
> won't help you unless you take the goon down with your
> first hit.

I thought that Centering was something that was considered
continuous as long as you expend the free action during each of your
active phases on Centering... ?

> > Other centering skills seen might be meditation
> (to represent looking for "the zone" described by many
> athletes. A downside to this is that you might lose
> the zone if you take damage or are knocked on your
> ass.)
>
> Like I said, you lose it after your first strike.
> Centering is not an ongoing thing unless you continue
> the centering action.

I don't understand. You may have to roll each action for the exact
benefits of your centering, but it's definitely an ongoing thing. One
free action per active phase, IIRC.

> There would just be appropriate drawbacks (you
> can't strike a pose or make a funny hand gesture in
> the middle of a fight, singing or chanting distracts
> you, at least until it becomes second nature etc.).

I'm not exactly talking about striking a pose, but I'll try to
describe some personal experiences, since you seem to doubt the realism
of some of these techniques.

There are certain stances that most people start to favor after
they've been training for a while, and certain 1 or 3 step kata that I
use a lot when sparring. I'd actually be mildly offended if you
described this as "striking a pose or a funny hand gesture". I can
accept an argument where you would consider this to be an inherent part
of raising your Unarmed Combat skill, but it's definitely something that
I've both used and seen used.

I think we agree on the kiai. Anyone who's trained in a style
involving it can tell you how often their instructor will make sure
you're doing it.

When I'm playing volleyball, the discussion I have with my teammates
that is overheard by the opposing team is definitely an important part
of my game, if I think that they're going to fall for it. Frat boys,
for example, almost always fall for it. There's nothing like trash talk
to keep someone in the tank, and the ref won't call you on it if it's
directed at your teammate. There's something else I've seen a lot that
I can only describe as "mouthing off in order to distract attention from
a recent injury and playing on anyway".

I believe the last skill I suggested was the use of meditation to
represent being able to consistently find the zone. I find this
difficult to describe, but being in the zone is somewhat like an altered
state of consciousness. I've only really managed to do this for martial
arts and volleyball, I haven't trained hard enough in anything else to
really end up there... maybe video games. ;)

> I'm not trying to overly penalise them, but I've got a
> mental block against allowing things that are TOO
> unrealistic. :)

Unrealistic? I think we're thinking of different centering
techniques here. Most of the things I listed I've done personally,
though not consistently. I'm speaking as a player here, not a PC, and
I'm not exactly a physad...

Mark
Message no. 17
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:05:14 -0800 (PST)
> I thought that Centering was something that was
considered continuous as long as you expend the free
action during each of your active phases on
Centering... ?
>
> I don't understand. You may have to roll each
action for the exact benefits of your centering, but
it's definitely an ongoing thing. One free action per
active phase, IIRC.

Okay, you may be right with the rules there. I don't
remember exactly. But it still gets back to realism.
As a GM, I won't allow continuous centering by
spending free actions if you're trying to centre from
melee combat and your centering skill is a kata,
kuji-kiri or kiai. For the first two, c'mon, you're
FIGHTING - how can you be using your hands and/or body
to carry out those movements while you're busy
punching the other guy in the head? For the third, a
kiai is an instantaneous thing. It's a shout. Bang.
Done. That's it. You want to do it again, you gonna
psyche yourself up and shout again. You try to keep it
going throughout combat by using free actions, I'm
going to rule that you go hoarse after 5 to 10 combat
rounds and you can't keep doing it.

Perhaps the rules allow what you said. Common sense
doesn't. At least, not with all centering skills.

> I'm not exactly talking about striking a pose,
but I'll try to describe some personal experiences,
since you seem to doubt the realism of some of these
techniques.
>
> There are certain stances that most people start
to favor after they've been training for a while, and
certain 1 or 3 step kata that I use a lot when
sparring. I'd actually be mildly offended if you
described this as "striking a pose or a funny hand
gesture". I can accept an argument where you would
consider this to be an inherent part of raising your
Unarmed Combat skill, but it's definitely something
that I've both used and seen used.

No, I'm sure you can do them, but I don't consider
such stances sufficient for centering. I see kata and
kuji-kiri centering as a series of involved movements,
not something you can just do in a fraction of a
second in the middle of a combat. The active portions
of centering skills are a way to focus your mind (even
when using centering for combat - it's a mind over
matter thing). There's no way a single quick gesture
or stance would be enough to focus you - not to the
extent required for the purposes of centering.

I mean, really, centering is crap. It's supposed to
resemble the mystical ability that martial artists and
such have of focusing their minds to allow themselves
to do the impossible. There's no WAY you could do that
kind of thing in a few seconds. Now, Shadowrun allows
that, because for centering to be useful it has to be
able to be carried out in a second or two. But there
are limits to how far I'll allow the idiocy to go.

> When I'm playing volleyball, the discussion I
have with my teammates that is overheard by the
opposing team is definitely an important part of my
game, if I think that they're going to fall for it.
Frat boys, for example, almost always fall for it.
There's nothing like trash talk to keep someone in the
tank, and the ref won't call you on it if it's
directed at your teammate. There's something else
I've seen a lot that I can only describe as "mouthing
off in order to distract attention from a recent
injury and playing on anyway".

That's nice, but I don't see your point here - just
how is this applicable to centering?

> I believe the last skill I suggested was the use
of meditation to represent being able to consistently
find the zone. I find this difficult to describe, but
being in the zone is somewhat like an altered state of
consciousness. I've only really managed to do this
for martial arts and volleyball, I haven't trained
hard enough in anything else to really end up there...
maybe video games. ;)

Which is well and good, but it's certainly not how I
see meditation. Hell, K would likely freak if I told
him this is how I envision Void's meditation centering
technique. Do you have any idea how nasty an adept
sniper can be if he consistently uses centering in
combat? :)

> Unrealistic? I think we're thinking of
different centering techniques here. Most of the
things I listed I've done personally, though not
consistently. I'm speaking as a player here, not a
PC, and I'm not exactly a physad...
> Mark

I'm sure we are. I don't think what you're talking
about is sufficient to meet the requirements of
centering. They certainly aren't in my games.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 18
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:40:33 EST
In a message dated 3/13/00 12:05:58 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> > I thought that Centering was something that was
> considered continuous as long as you expend the free
> action during each of your active phases on
> Centering... ?

Centering is a Free Action, unless the GM is nitpicky, and argues that some
"skill sets" require more time to pull off than this. For instance, many
artistic and technically based centering skills are things that require not
only time, but accompanying equipment setup as well.

> > I don't understand. You may have to roll each
> action for the exact benefits of your centering, but
> it's definitely an ongoing thing. One free action per
> active phase, IIRC.

Actually, if you are playing SR3, I would suggest you read the section on
Free Actions again VERY carefully. Free Actions are a thing to be feared if
used intelligently now.

> Okay, you may be right with the rules there. I don't
> remember exactly. But it still gets back to realism.
> As a GM, I won't allow continuous centering by
> spending free actions if you're trying to centre from
> melee combat and your centering skill is a kata,
> kuji-kiri or kiai. For the first two, c'mon, you're
> FIGHTING - how can you be using your hands and/or body
> to carry out those movements while you're busy
> punching the other guy in the head? For the third, a
> kiai is an instantaneous thing. It's a shout. Bang.
> Done. That's it. You want to do it again, you gonna
> psyche yourself up and shout again. You try to keep it
> going throughout combat by using free actions, I'm
> going to rule that you go hoarse after 5 to 10 combat
> rounds and you can't keep doing it.

And although Doc' may be correct, I just have to slap him around for this for
a variety of reasons.

"Kata", as a form of centering is going to mean a lot in the days to come.
"Kata" usage is always going on during a combat, as long as the combatants
are using official styles of things and not using any kind of "personal
adaptation". This in my opinion is basically if the skill is being used, but
*NOT* combat pool is being applied. Form is a thing of second nature if
performed correctly.

> Perhaps the rules allow what you said. Common sense
> doesn't. At least, not with all centering skills.

Agreed, not with all.

> > I'm not exactly talking about striking a pose,
> but I'll try to describe some personal experiences,
> since you seem to doubt the realism of some of these
> techniques.
> >
> > There are certain stances that most people start
> to favor after they've been training for a while, and
> certain 1 or 3 step kata that I use a lot when
> sparring. I'd actually be mildly offended if you
> described this as "striking a pose or a funny hand
> gesture". I can accept an argument where you would
> consider this to be an inherent part of raising your
> Unarmed Combat skill, but it's definitely something
> that I've both used and seen used.

This is where the fine line of "Kata as a Combat Form" enters into the
situation. Again, as long as the combatant(s) are not trying to adapt their
fighting styles too much, this should be just fine.

> No, I'm sure you can do them, but I don't consider
> such stances sufficient for centering. I see kata and
> kuji-kiri centering as a series of involved movements,
> not something you can just do in a fraction of a
> second in the middle of a combat. The active portions
> of centering skills are a way to focus your mind (even
> when using centering for combat - it's a mind over
> matter thing). There's no way a single quick gesture
> or stance would be enough to focus you - not to the
> extent required for the purposes of centering.

Doc', coming from you this doesn't feel like it means much. Such things as
single gestures, simple ones in fact, are at the very core of "Chi/Ki/Chaia"
conformity of mind, body and spirit. But I really don't want to go into this
here, as this "forum" isn't the best place for such.

> I mean, really, centering is crap. It's supposed to
> resemble the mystical ability that martial artists and
> such have of focusing their minds to allow themselves
> to do the impossible. There's no WAY you could do that
> kind of thing in a few seconds. Now, Shadowrun allows
> that, because for centering to be useful it has to be
> able to be carried out in a second or two. But there
> are limits to how far I'll allow the idiocy to go.

Think what you will, just pray you would not have to run into someone like
myself, or worse ... someone like Erik Jameson (remember Erik?) who does
martial arts (of any kind) as a way of second or first life. These things
become part of whom you are, and they are a measure of dedication on the part
of the user. Again, as I said, it's a place where "Form as an Art" comes
into play.

> > When I'm playing volleyball, the discussion I
> have with my teammates that is overheard by the
> opposing team is definitely an important part of my
> game, if I think that they're going to fall for it.
> Frat boys, for example, almost always fall for it.
> There's nothing like trash talk to keep someone in the
> tank, and the ref won't call you on it if it's
> directed at your teammate. There's something else
> I've seen a lot that I can only describe as "mouthing
> off in order to distract attention from a recent
> injury and playing on anyway".
>
> That's nice, but I don't see your point here - just
> how is this applicable to centering?

I have to agree with Doc' on this one. Your example isn't in any way
supporting your stance on the issue of Centering IMO either. Perhaps if you
could explain this a bit further.

> > I believe the last skill I suggested was the use
> of meditation to represent being able to consistently
> find the zone. I find this difficult to describe, but
> being in the zone is somewhat like an altered state of
> consciousness. I've only really managed to do this
> for martial arts and volleyball, I haven't trained
> hard enough in anything else to really end up there...
> maybe video games. ;)

Ah, this isn't "meditation" in the mechanics sense, it is more a kind of
"focus of moments". In this case, Focus on the Goal, put into a more direct,
limited sense. "Meditation" is most likely (note the qualifier of terms I
used here) a form of directed, instilled, focus. A sense of focus whereby
the moment is transcended by the individual who seeks to find a sense of
awareness of the whole being/ones self and anchor/perpetuate that sensation
into all situations ... not just a given, singular, flashing instance.

> Which is well and good, but it's certainly not how I
> see meditation. Hell, K would likely freak if I told
> him this is how I envision Void's meditation centering
> technique. Do you have any idea how nasty an adept
> sniper can be if he consistently uses centering in
> combat? :)


Yes Doc', and in fact, I have a feeling I've got a *BETTER* sense of this
than you. As I said, what is to come ...

> > Unrealistic? I think we're thinking of
> different centering techniques here. Most of the
> things I listed I've done personally, though not
> consistently. I'm speaking as a player here, not a
> PC, and I'm not exactly a physad...
> > Mark

I agree, there is definitely a sense of need of common terminology and
understanding in order to have this all make more sense.

> I'm sure we are. I don't think what you're talking
> about is sufficient to meet the requirements of
> centering. They certainly aren't in my games.

Which is all well and good, but that is where the GM's part comes into play
for us all. ;-P

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 19
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:51:02 -0800 (PST)
<Snipples(TM)>
> Centering is a Free Action, unless the GM is
nitpicky, and argues that some "skill sets" require
more time to pull off than this. For instance, many
artistic and technically based centering skills are
things that require not only time, but accompanying
equipment setup as well.
<BigSnip(TM)>

Really, guys, this is the core of the matter. I may be
"nitpicky", K, but IMO Centering can be a terribly
powerful ability, especially when used by adepts in
combat. I'm not about to make it easy to be used.

K, Mark - I'm sure you guys can do katas quickly and
kuji-kiri and all that, even in the middle of a fight.
However, the way you do it and using them as
techniques to centre yourself are entirely different
things - at least, that's how I see it. In SR, you're
bringing another element into play here - the focusing
of magical energy. Obviously, that can't be
quantified, but I don't think what you're talking
about would be sufficient to do that. You're talking
about things you can do as second nature, things that
you don't even have to think about. To me, centering
involves a deliberate focusing of your mind and
magical energy - you HAVE to think about it - and that
means you have to take some time over it.

Feel free to disagree, but that's my view on the matter.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 20
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:07:18 EST
In a message dated 3/13/00 7:51:27 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> <Snipples(TM)>

Snipples??? Now I'm earning "snipples"??? Sounds like a really disgusting
variation on a certain drink I know of.... ;-P

> > Centering is a Free Action, unless the GM is
> nitpicky, and argues that some "skill sets" require
> more time to pull off than this. For instance, many
> artistic and technically based centering skills are
> things that require not only time, but accompanying
> equipment setup as well.
> <BigSnip(TM)>
>
> Really, guys, this is the core of the matter. I may be
> "nitpicky", K, but IMO Centering can be a terribly
> powerful ability, especially when used by adepts in
> combat. I'm not about to make it easy to be used.

Hey now, don't take it wrong. I'm not being "nitpicky" towards you in any
way, I'm just saying that as with all things, it comes down to what the GM
feels comfortable with having in his/her games.

> K, Mark - I'm sure you guys can do katas quickly and
> kuji-kiri and all that, even in the middle of a fight.
> However, the way you do it and using them as
> techniques to centre yourself are entirely different
> things - at least, that's how I see it. In SR, you're
> bringing another element into play here - the focusing
> of magical energy. Obviously, that can't be
> quantified, but I don't think what you're talking
> about would be sufficient to do that. You're talking
> about things you can do as second nature, things that
> you don't even have to think about. To me, centering
> involves a deliberate focusing of your mind and
> magical energy - you HAVE to think about it - and that
> means you have to take some time over it.

Yes, you're right. But as you also said, this is hard to quantify. What *I*
am saying is that a lot of the "instinctual" maneuvers are also developed
into "instinctual focusing techniques" (I just *KNOW* this came across wrong).

> Feel free to disagree, but that's my view on the matter.

<bad brooklyn voice> Yeah yeah yeah ... so you wanna make sumthing of
it???</bad brooklyn voice> ;-P

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 21
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 15:10:14 -0800 (PST)
> > <Snipples(TM)>
>
> Snipples??? Now I'm earning "snipples"??? Sounds
like a really disgusting variation on a certain drink
I know of.... ;-P

*lol*

Snipples(TM) being the opposite to BigSnip(TM). Get a
grip, K.

Errr...not on that...

> > Really, guys, this is the core of the matter. I
may be "nitpicky", K, but IMO Centering can be a
terribly powerful ability, especially when used by
adepts in combat. I'm not about to make it easy to be
used.
>
> Hey now, don't take it wrong. I'm not being
"nitpicky" towards you in any way, I'm just saying
that as with all things, it comes down to what the GM
feels comfortable with having in his/her games.

Quite right.

> Yes, you're right. But as you also said, this is
hard to quantify. What *I* am saying is that a lot of
the "instinctual" maneuvers are also developed into
"instinctual focusing techniques" (I just *KNOW* this
came across wrong).

That I'll take your word for - as I said, however, my
view is that "instinctual focusing techniques" are not
sufficient to focus the magical component of
centering.

I hope you understood THAT. :)

> > Feel free to disagree, but that's my view on the
matter.
>
> <bad brooklyn voice> Yeah yeah yeah ... so you wanna
make sumthing of it???</bad brooklyn voice> ;-P
> -K

Not really. We're just circling around on this one. I
don't think any of us is going to be able to land a
knockout blow here - it's a little difficult to say
what's right and what's wrong with an (almost) totally
fictional mechanic. You go your way, I'll go mine.
Yes. Indeed. Feel free to let Void centre his heart
away in combat. I don't mind...;)

*Doc' wonders if hillbilly shamans can take
"nose-picking" and "cousin-marrying" as centering skills...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 22
From: Yiannakos Yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:16:12 -0500
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>

> *Doc' wonders if hillbilly shamans can take
> "nose-picking" and "cousin-marrying" as centering skills...*
>
> ====> Doc'

Don't forget the ever-important cleaning-ears-with-truck-keys skill...

;-)

---Dave ('s not here man)
Message no. 23
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Martial Arts (Re:centering )
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 18:07:00 -0800 (PST)
> > *Doc' wonders if hillbilly shamans can take
"nose-picking" and "cousin-marrying" as centering
skills...*
> >
> > ====> > Doc'
>
> Don't forget the ever-important
cleaning-ears-with-truck-keys skill...
> ;-)
> ---Dave ('s not here man)

Nah, man.

Those are redneck shamans (of the Budweiser totem).

They're the ones who enchant their pickup trucks as
weapon foci (+6 dice to run someone down) and they
also know the Sculling Beer and Scratching Gut
centering techniques...

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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