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Message no. 1
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Martial Arts vs. Brawling
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 14:22:59 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Sprott <wasntka44@*********.net>
To: Shadowrun Post <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 2:38 PM
Subject: Martial Arts vs. Brawling


>I'm not sure how to approach this, but I just read something called,
>"Martial Arts System for Shadowrun 3rd edition by James v1.1" If anybody
>else has read this, I hope you will comment with me. However, if you haven
>'t read this piece, do so now... It's on the Shadowrun Archive page.
>http://shadowrun.html.com/archive/
>
>I hope this doesn't sound like I'm attacking the author of this system, but
>I really don't think that people understand what martial arts are and how
>these styles can be both incredibly deadly and almost totally ineffective
>depending on the situation and the opponent. To say, "Each Martial Art is
>harder to learn than normal brawling, and that's why improvement cost is
>higher than normal. But Martial Arts are also a way better and the fellow
>with for example 8 rating in brawling don't stand a chance with character
>having 8 rating in Martial Art.," is not only totally inaccurate, but also
>incredibly naive.
>
>incredible stamina, and the ability to take punches and deliver them back
>to you ten fold. Is this art? Or is this Brawling? (I know some boxing
>fans out there will disagree with this analysis as this debate has been
>going on for some time in the boxing community... but try to remember, I'm
>just making a point.)
>
>
I agree here. When I was a wee lad my foster brother was taken to karate by
my parents. For the new people, they decided to show how karate was so much
better than normal fighting, and so this young blackbelt volunteered to
knock my foster brother around a bit. He encouraged my foster brother to
come at him full on, but he didn't really want to. The blackbelt goaded him,
showing off and all that stuff, and then found himself unco and bleeding
profusely from the nose. My foster brother was nearly kicked out then and
there.
Anyway, the point is that my foster brother had no formal training, just a
rough childhood, and unless you are really really good at your chosen style,
against another practiced fighter you are only really good at countering
your own style, so martial arts training can actually be a hindrance in a
fight some times. IMO, of course.
Message no. 2
From: Glenn Sprott wasntka44@*********.net
Subject: Martial Arts vs. Brawling
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 22:39:42 -0500
I'm not sure how to approach this, but I just read something called,
"Martial Arts System for Shadowrun 3rd edition by James v1.1" If anybody
else has read this, I hope you will comment with me. However, if you haven
't read this piece, do so now... It's on the Shadowrun Archive page.
http://shadowrun.html.com/archive/

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm attacking the author of this system, but
I really don't think that people understand what martial arts are and how
these styles can be both incredibly deadly and almost totally ineffective
depending on the situation and the opponent. To say, "Each Martial Art is
harder to learn than normal brawling, and that's why improvement cost is
higher than normal. But Martial Arts are also a way better and the fellow
with for example 8 rating in brawling don't stand a chance with character
having 8 rating in Martial Art.," is not only totally inaccurate, but also
incredibly naive.

I'm not attacking the system that has been created. I have only read
through a small portion of the actual rule-set, and what I have seen seems
valid. However, it's the idea behind this system that is flawed.
Convincing me that a "brawler" is no match for a "martial artist"
seems
ludicrous. Believing in this myth almost got a friend of mine killed.

Anyone who has seen "The Ultimate Fighting Championships," (let alone
someone with actual training in martial arts) will tell you that certain
styles of fighting are almost worthless against certain other styles of
fighting. (I use this example because it's easier for everyone to
understand)... Watching these fights can be very surprising to some
people. Masters of soft and hard styles of fighting being taken down by a
style that they are unaccustomed to happens all too often during these
matches. Even boxing fans will tell you that when Mike Tyson first came to
the ring, his style was very brutal and without finesse... he simply beat
you to death. Many experts made fun of him calling his art "Street
Brawling in the ring." And yet, this young fighter managed to make it all
the way to the top (before he fell) using nothing but brute strength,
incredible stamina, and the ability to take punches and deliver them back
to you ten fold. Is this art? Or is this Brawling? (I know some boxing
fans out there will disagree with this analysis as this debate has been
going on for some time in the boxing community... but try to remember, I'm
just making a point.)

A character with an 8 in "brawling" versus a character with an 8 in
"martial arts" would not be such a one sided fight as many people might
think. Or then again, it could be. Like I said before, many styles of
fighting are really ineffective verses others and vice versa. The point is
that both characters have an 8 in a melee skill. How is it fair that one
would be "more skilled" than the other? Now, if you factor in that one is
an adept and one is not, then I can't argue with you... Adepts I feel
SHOULD have an advantage in combat being as they have special powers and
such. But which one is the adept? Does everyone assume that it is the
martial artist?

I had the unlucky chance of witnessing a fight on the street here in my
city a few years ago between two of my friends... One is a student of Wing
Chung (a form of Kung Fu), and the other was just a "street fighter." The
brutality of the fight and the quickness of it were astounding. The
martial artist swung and connected with the other's jaw, then swung again,
scoring a hit in the stomach.... then it turned ugly. The street fighter
pulled the other one in. Apparently not feeling either blow, he pulled the
right arm of the martial artist with his right hand, drawing the first
off-balance and forward into the left fist of the street fighter. He would
tug hard on his wrist, and hit with his left over and over, drawing both
combatants around in a circle, always keeping the martial artist off
balance. The fight continued this way, until the martial artist could
escape his grasp. At this point however, the man was exhausted, hurting,
and bleeding into his eyes... The street fighter showed no remorse, as he
circled behind the martial artist, lifting him over his shoulder, and
slamming him (a la WWF) onto the concrete. If it weren't for other friends
of mine helping me pull them apart, I think permanent damage would have
been incurred on my friend... all because he underestimated a man he
assumed had "no classical training."

I will remind you that this man's fists were huge and callused due to his
fighting almost every day... his pain tolerance was unreal, and his
reflexes were even faster than I had ever seen on anyone in person. He was
a religious power-lifter, able to bench over 400 pounds and weighing just
under 200 pounds (quick and very strong). He learned to fight on the
street where he grew up with his alcoholic and extremely abusive father.
On a side note, this man later entered into martial arts (Karate and Kung
Fu) where he learned to "fight with discipline," (his words). On several
occasions, his master would demonstrate a move on my friend (usually a hold
or takedown) to prove that size and strength didn't matter... I was there
when he was proved wrong. I watched his teacher, a very talented and
experienced martial arts master, struggle to take down a "street brawler"
with no prior martial arts experience.

The point is that saying someone with martial arts will always win over
someone without is insane. I'm a bartender, and I've seen men who seem to
know how to fight, get tossed out of the bar with ease because they couldn'
t fight a man who just walked toward them, using their body as a ram and a
shield. Alcohol was a factor in most cases, but some were completely
sober... And what about a person who studies pressure points? Is this a
form of martial arts? I know some forms study pressure points, but I have
dropped a 300 pound man with a lighter on the back of his ear (a trick a
cop showed me... very effective... very painful). I'm no martial artist...

Just my opinion. Ignore me if I'm ranting...

Wasntka (Wolf)
Message no. 3
From: . s t e f a n stefan@*****.org
Subject: Martial Arts vs. Brawling
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 05:21:22 +0100
> >I'm not sure how to approach this, but I just read something called,
> >"Martial Arts System for Shadowrun 3rd edition by James v1.1" If
anybody
> >else has read this, I hope you will comment with me. However, if you haven
> >'t read this piece, do so now... It's on the Shadowrun Archive page.
> >http://shadowrun.html.com/archive/
> >
> >I hope this doesn't sound like I'm attacking the author of this system, but
> >I really don't think that people understand what martial arts are and how
> >these styles can be both incredibly deadly and almost totally ineffective
> >depending on the situation and the opponent. To say, "Each Martial Art is
> >harder to learn than normal brawling, and that's why improvement cost is
> >higher than normal. But Martial Arts are also a way better and the fellow
> >with for example 8 rating in brawling don't stand a chance with character
> >having 8 rating in Martial Art.," is not only totally inaccurate, but also
> >incredibly naive.

A rating 8 Martial artist would be just as good as a rating 8 street
fighter. that is what the rating system is for people!

But back to life here and the arts what people fail to see here is
something that I can realte to myself. I am quite good as fighting other
people involved in the same martial arts as myself but i'm somewhat
crappier if you could say that in fighting people practicing other martial
arts just as they are usually worse of fighting me compared to fighting
people of the same style. Why ? Quite simply cause that other style is
somewhat alien to you and you can't really predict what is going to
happend. So there for the martial artist doesn't become superior to "normal
bar brawlers".

This sort of reminds me of a scene in Indy : temple of Doom. The sword
fighter steps out of the crowd and starts showing off, he is really good,
probably. But Indy does the unexpected and just pulls out his six shooter
and blows him away.

By this I'd like to say that when I fight I sort of expect people to fight
in a somewhat similar fashion to me and then to meat someone that fights
without rules, style, honour or whatever will become more unpredictable and
there for a larger threat to you. Alot of fighting has to do with being
able to predict what will happend and take counter meassures before they do
but if you can't predict then it sort of becomes a whole lot harder.

ahh well .. rambling mode off ..

.stefan


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"frag you and the datastream you came on!" - sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... email ....................................... stefan@*****.org ...
... homepage .................................. http://litbo.org/ ...
... icq ................................................... 793828 ...
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Message no. 4
From: Daniel Duque dduque@******.net.ve
Subject: Martial Arts vs. Brawling
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:16:03 -0600
----- Mensaje original -----
De: "Simon Fuller" <sfuller@******.com.au>
Para: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Enviado: Lunes, 14 de Febrero de 2000 09:22 p.m.
Asunto: Re: Martial Arts vs. Brawling


>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glenn Sprott <wasntka44@*********.net>
> To: Shadowrun Post <shadowrn@*********.com>
> Date: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 2:38 PM
> Subject: Martial Arts vs. Brawling
>
>

> ... so martial arts training can actually be a hindrance in a
> fight some times. IMO, of course.
>
>

Wich is why Bruce Lee developed Jeet Kun Do, it's a style without a style,
it pretty much consists of learning how to counter any attack and at the
same time incorporate it into your repertoire, so you're not just a karate
fighter or a kung fu fighter, you are simply a combination of every style
you have seen in your fighting life, there are very few masters of this art,
but they are almost impossible to beat.



Daniel Duque
dduque@******.net.ve
afnetworks@*******.net

"Ego non sum insanus, meas vertitas est altera"
"I am not insane, my reality is another"
Message no. 5
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Martial Arts vs. Brawling
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:09:10 -0500
Daniel Duque wrote:

> <SNIP>
> > ... so martial arts training can actually be a hindrance in a
> > fight some times. IMO, of course.
>
> Wich is why Bruce Lee developed Jeet Kun Do, it's a style without a style,
> it pretty much consists of learning how to counter any attack and at the
> same time incorporate it into your repertoire, so you're not just a karate
> fighter or a kung fu fighter, you are simply a combination of every style
> you have seen in your fighting life, there are very few masters of this art,
> but they are almost impossible to beat.
>

Ah, so that's what Jeek Kun Do is all about. I knew it didn't have the stylistic
things, but I didn't realize that you can also add things to your repertoire.
Interesting. But back to Shadowrun, how would you show this? I mean, this seems
perfect for AD&D's system (note: this is just my opinion, and just in this
situation. I don't think AD&D is better, and I don't want to start a thread
about that). You get in a fight, you gain experience. Enough experience, your
skill is raised. And just so no one says it, I know that Karma is kinda supposed
to influence this. However, I think that some measure of raising skills without
Karma would be needed for this style, just because it's not just learning from
past mistakes (another thing Karma is supposed to reflect), but learning
something totally new. I'll have to think about this. Anyone have any ideas?
<SNIP>

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder,
bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance.
In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The
cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 6
From: Glenn Sprott wasntka44@*********.net
Subject: Martial Arts vs. Brawling
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 02:07:40 -0500
>>>Ah, so that's what Jeek Kun Do is all about. I knew it didn't have
the stylistic things, but I didn't realize that you can also add things to
your repertoire. Interesting. But back to Shadowrun, how would you show
this? I mean, this seems perfect for AD&D's system (note: this is just my
opinion, and just in this situation. I don't think AD&D is better, and I
don't want to start a thread about that). You get in a fight, you gain
experience. Enough experience, your skill is raised. And just so no one
says it, I know that Karma is kinda supposed to influence this. However, I
think that some measure of raising skills without Karma would be needed for
this style, just because it's not just learning from past mistakes (another
thing Karma is supposed to reflect), but learning something totally new.
I'll have to think about this. Anyone have any ideas? <SNIP> <<<


I really don't think that Shadowrun could show this. Jeet Kun Do is an art
gained after one has learned several other styles. As Bruce said, you have
to learn it and then unlearn it. Jeet Kun Do is taking everything that you
have learned, and then forgetting it; letting the art come out of all of
the different styles you have learned to come together and form a new art.

I don't think you can "learn" this style in the traditional sense.
(Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this)

Your character would have to learn several styles of martial arts and have
them all at higher ratings before he could start into Jeet Kun Do. And I
think by that time, if your character is still alive and the GM can find
suitable challenges for a character of that kind of power, then it would
all be a judgment call between the GM and the player. Sort of like taking
the average of all the other martial arts skills, but giving it some kind
of special adept power like... I don't know... Martial Adaption: A power
that would give the character more and more extra dice as melee combat goes
on to reflect how the character adapts and adjusts his Jeet Kun Do style to
better fit his opponent... Or something like that.

Just a guess...

Wastnka (Wolf)
Message no. 7
From: Guru gburus@***.univ.szczecin.pl
Subject: Martial Arts vs. Brawling
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:47:12 +0100 (MET)
Hiya folks,

The following message is written by my friend, who is mainly 'resposible
for "Martial Arts System for Shadowrun 3rd edition by James 1.1". I did
most of the description. I post it because he is not subscribed and I
sent him first post to read and this is his response.



------------------- James' post ---------------------------

Hi Wasntka (Wolf)!

I've created the MA rules you've criticised

> I'm not sure how to approach this, but I just read something called,
> "Martial Arts System for Shadowrun 3rd edition by James v1.1" If anybody
> else has read this, I hope you will comment with me. However, if you
haven
> 't read this piece, do so now... It's on the Shadowrun Archive page.
> http://shadowrun.html.com/archive/
>
> I hope this doesn't sound like I'm attacking the author of this system,
but
> I really don't think that people understand what martial arts are and how
> these styles can be both incredibly deadly and almost totally ineffective
> depending on the situation and the opponent. To say, "Each Martial Art is
> harder to learn than normal brawling, and that's why improvement cost is
> higher than normal. But Martial Arts are also a way better and the fellow
> with for example 8 rating in brawling don't stand a chance with character
> having 8 rating in Martial Art.," is not only totally inaccurate, but also
> incredibly naive.
First, the cost is higher also for the game balance. Secondly: do you
learn any martial art? Or you study anything connected with martial arts
that you know that it is innacurate and naive? Well, I study Aikido for some
time now, and I think of myself as about a student who still have to learn a
lot, but I know many people im my Aikido school who are really advanced
and have black belts and hakama.
So I sew MA in reality couple of times. Call it luck, but there was no
situation where someone could be a danger to Aikidoka after 7 years of
training.
I've also read many books about MA and I don't think they lie. I don't
really think that it is totally naive. Take for example two guys: one
have learned brawling on the streets for many years and the other was 5-6 years
in marine corpses. Who do you think will win? Sure, there are many factors,
but I wouldn't bet on the streetfighter.

> I'm not attacking the system that has been created. I have only read
> through a small portion of the actual rule-set, and what I have seen seems
> valid. However, it's the idea behind this system that is flawed.
> Convincing me that a "brawler" is no match for a "martial artist"
seems
> ludicrous. Believing in this myth almost got a friend of mine killed.
And beliving in dwarves and elves is ok? hehehe Sorry, little of the topic.
Normally, martial artist, learns a lot more than a street fighter. His moves
are trained, and he knows where to aim the best hit without thinking. It
takes a years of training. His knowlege of fight is, well 'academical'. On
the other side is brawler, who learned his fighting skills on the streets
and he have some of his own tricks... The real diffrence is that often
martial artists have little experience of fighting with opponents who don't
use 'resonable' techniques. Brawlers attack with fury and pure strength.
Martial artist is simply not prepared for such a furious and 'stupid'
attacks. And he gets hit. But if martial artis have used his skill on the
streets, he knows what can happen, he knows how to fight back this raw
force. And I think that in the world of shadowrun, every single martial
artist already have tested himself od the streets battleground. I bet that
he have been beaten couple of times, by even weaker opponents but with
knowledge and experience it propably won't happen fast again.

> Anyone who has seen "The Ultimate Fighting Championships," (let alone
> someone with actual training in martial arts) will tell you that certain
> styles of fighting are almost worthless against certain other styles of
> fighting. (I use this example because it's easier for everyone to
> understand)... Watching these fights can be very surprising to some
> people. Masters of soft and hard styles of fighting being taken down by a
> style that they are unaccustomed to happens all too often during these
> matches. Even boxing fans will tell you that when Mike Tyson first
> came to
> the ring, his style was very brutal and without finesse... he simply beat
> you to death. Many experts made fun of him calling his art "Street
> Brawling in the ring." And yet, this young fighter managed to make it all
> the way to the top (before he fell) using nothing but brute strength,
> incredible stamina, and the ability to take punches and deliver them back
> to you ten fold. Is this art? Or is this Brawling? (I know some boxing
> fans out there will disagree with this analysis as this debate has been
> going on for some time in the boxing community... but try to remember, I'm
> just making a point.)
As above...

> A character with an 8 in "brawling" versus a character with an 8 in
> "martial arts" would not be such a one sided fight as many people might
> think. Or then again, it could be. Like I said before, many styles of
> fighting are really ineffective verses others and vice versa. The point
> is
> that both characters have an 8 in a melee skill. How is it fair that one
> would be "more skilled" than the other? Now, if you factor in that one is
> an adept and one is not, then I can't argue with you... Adepts I feel
> SHOULD have an advantage in combat being as they have special powers and
> such. But which one is the adept? Does everyone assume that it is the
> martial artist?
Even using my MA rules, character with MA of 8 against the character with
brawling of 8 is not a one sided fight. But the advantage goes to martial
artist. As long he is not going to do stupid moves or have bad luck he
will probably win. But he still easly can loose. There are many other
factors like size, strength and so on...
Martial artist can be really lucky and hit with every single attack, but it
is nothing if opponent have 6 body and not even notices this blows.


> I had the unlucky chance of witnessing a fight on the street here in my
> city a few years ago between two of my friends... One is a student of
> Wing
> Chung (a form of Kung Fu), and the other was just a "street fighter." The
> brutality of the fight and the quickness of it were astounding. The
> martial artist swung and connected with the other's jaw, then swung again,
> scoring a hit in the stomach.... then it turned ugly. The street fighter
> pulled the other one in. Apparently not feeling either blow, he pulled
> the
> right arm of the martial artist with his right hand, drawing the first
> off-balance and forward into the left fist of the street fighter. He
> would
> tug hard on his wrist, and hit with his left over and over, drawing both
> combatants around in a circle, always keeping the martial artist off
> balance. The fight continued this way, until the martial artist could
> escape his grasp. At this point however, the man was exhausted, hurting,
> and bleeding into his eyes... The street fighter showed no remorse, as he
> circled behind the martial artist, lifting him over his shoulder, and
> slamming him (a la WWF) onto the concrete. If it weren't for other
> friends
> of mine helping me pull them apart, I think permanent damage would have
> been incurred on my friend... all because he underestimated a man he
> assumed had "no classical training."
I'm not sure if the both have 'in game terms' the same level of the
skill. And there is no way to find it out. But that fight you saw only
confirm my fruther opinion. The streetfighter is bigger (or have high
'body') and have experience in fighting on the strrets. Martrial artist
probably havent fight too often with such a berserk opponents, till now
he had against him only sparing partners who were using 'systematical'
fight style, with nice and predictible moves.

> I will remind you that this man's fists were huge and callused due to his
> fighting almost every day... his pain tolerance was unreal, and his
> reflexes were even faster than I had ever seen on anyone in person. He
> was
> a religious power-lifter, able to bench over 400 pounds and weighing just
> under 200 pounds (quick and very strong). He learned to fight on the
> street where he grew up with his alcoholic and extremely abusive father.
> On a side note, this man later entered into martial arts (Karate and Kung
> Fu) where he learned to "fight with discipline," (his words). On several
> occasions, his master would demonstrate a move on my friend (usually a
> hold
> or takedown) to prove that size and strength didn't matter... I was there
> when he was proved wrong. I watched his teacher, a very talented and
> experienced martial arts master, struggle to take down a "street brawler"
> with no prior martial arts experience.
As I say, it have nothing to do with MA or brawling skill, it is body and
strength.

> The point is that saying someone with martial arts will always win over
> someone without is insane. I'm a bartender, and I've seen men who seem to
> know how to fight, get tossed out of the bar with ease because they
> couldn't fight a man who just walked toward them, using their body as a
> ram and a
> shield. Alcohol was a factor in most cases, but some were completely
> sober... And what about a person who studies pressure points? Is this a
> form of martial arts? I know some forms study pressure points, but I have
> dropped a 300 pound man with a lighter on the back of his ear (a trick a
> cop showed me... very effective... very painful). I'm no martial artist...
so your right about one, martial artist will not always win against brawler
but I wouldn't bet on browler if I knew their skills are on the same level

I saw documental black and white films on how creator of aikido Morihei
Ueshiba fought. When he was 60 years old he was able to fight with 5 armed
opponents and win. And this opponents were toughest and biggest of his
students. I don't think that any single brawler could beat him when he had
lived. Not after what I saw.
The real power of MA is philosophy. Learning martial art is learning
codified techniques and learning the way of thinking. Our Sensei tells us
very often, don't get scared in the fight because you will lose. It
sometimes happens that you will have take one or two hits before you win.
And finally the worlds of sensei "If you need more strength than drinking
a cup of tee to beat your opponent, than you have to learn more". You know
aikido is using strength of opponent against himself.

I guess it's enough for a defence speech :)

James
Message no. 8
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Martial Arts vs. Brawling
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 14:24:49 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 14 Mar 2000, Glenn Sprott wrote:

> I hope this doesn't sound like I'm attacking the author of this system, but
> I really don't think that people understand what martial arts are and how
> these styles can be both incredibly deadly and almost totally ineffective
> depending on the situation and the opponent. To say, "Each Martial Art is
> harder to learn than normal brawling, and that's why improvement cost is
> higher than normal. But Martial Arts are also a way better and the fellow
> with for example 8 rating in brawling don't stand a chance with character
> having 8 rating in Martial Art.," is not only totally inaccurate, but also
> incredibly naive.

Exactly so. This is something that a lot of people forget: each
style has its strengths and weaknesses. If you fight by someone else's
rules, you get beat. Being able to do a text-book perfect flying
side-kick does you exactly zero good when you've been brought to the
ground in a grappling situation. It is because of this that I am always
very careful about the situation that a combat takes place in.
This is how the specialization rules for martial arts should work.
All the GM needs to do is ask him or herself, "is the character attempting
to do something the martial art teaches and/or is good at?" If the
answer is "yes," then use the full specialization skill level. If the
answer is "no," then use the base skill. The difference in dice will
reflect the fact that some people are in an alien situation. also
remember that this difference is effectively doubled once combat pool is
figured in (because you can only add as many dice as your skill level).
So if a fighter with an Unarmed Combat/Tae Kwon Do skill of 2/5
gets involved in a wrestling match, he's only rolling 2 dice. If he can
regain his footing and open the distance to the point where his kicks are
effective, he's back to using 5 dice. Similarly, a fighter with an
Unarmed Combat/Judo skill of 2/5 is at home rolling around on the ground.
He rolls 5 dice (and can add up to 5 combat pool) for such situations. In
a stand-up slugfest where he's trying to trade punches or kicks with the
other guy, however, he's out of his element, and only rolling 2 dice (and
only adding 2 combat pool to his attacks or counters).
So how do you determine what kind of situation the fight is?
Well, that depends. Most fights start out as stand-up affairs, but
quickly degenerate to down-and-dirty wrestling matches. I use two easy
concepts to allow combatants to dictate how a fight goes, namely aiming in
melee, and melee called-shots. I could explain them here, but to save
bandwidth, I'll just point you to my house rules at:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jormung/shadowrun/rules.html

These rules were originally written for SR2 (so they still use the
base/concentration/specialization progression) but you'll get the idea.
The updated rules for SR3 will be available soon (yes, I know I've been
saying that for like six months now, but this time I mean it). Anyway,
they've been in playtest for well over three years, and we've found they
work extremely well, and cover most situations. You may want to check out
the section on grappling as well, as I've added rules that cover this kind
of situation since FASA's were so poorly defined.
Check them out, try them, and let me know how it goes.

Marc
Message no. 9
From: Wavy Davy ctysmd@***.leeds.ac.uk
Subject: Martial Arts vs. Brawling
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:07:53 +0000 (GMT)
On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, . s t e f a n wrote:

> A rating 8 Martial artist would be just as good as a rating 8 street
> fighter. that is what the rating system is for people!
>
> But back to life here and the arts what people fail to see here is
> something that I can realte to myself. I am quite good as fighting other
> people involved in the same martial arts as myself but i'm somewhat
> crappier if you could say that in fighting people practicing other martial
> arts just as they are usually worse of fighting me compared to fighting
> people of the same style. Why ? Quite simply cause that other style is
> somewhat alien to you and you can't really predict what is going to
> happend. So there for the martial artist doesn't become superior to "normal
> bar brawlers".

Question: Surely therefore, two combatants equally skilled in different
martial arts would both find each others style 'somewhat alien' to and
equal extent, and therefore still be evenly matched?

I think folks are forgetting that martial arts is a specialization of
the general skill, unarmed combat. Specialization (in SR terms) is to
gain advantages in a narrow area at the cost of lesser skill
generally. We don't often see people specialising in Pistols, for
example, because they want to be able to use any pistol, anywhere at any
time (a useful skill for a runner). However, nearly everyone
specialises in an Unarmed Combat, cos under the current rules, it's
free dice.

IMHO, it makes sense (and good game balance) to apply specialisation
restrictions a bit more stringently to unarmed combat than this.

Any suggestions? I have a few :) (in no particular order and often
contradictory!)


(1) - There was a significant breakdown of skills from SR2 to SR3
(Firearms and Armed Combat, for example), which I think was a good
thing, the skills being a bit general for my tastes. But Unarmed
Combat remained the same. I think this is unrealistic as I am of
the persausion that there is no such thing as a 'general' fighter,
everyone has there own style and emphasis and techniques. One more
realistic version might possibly be to break down the Unmarmed
combat skill, into various Martial Arts and other 'disciplines'.
This is quite tricky as the SR melee combat system is (IMO)
somewhat lacking (as this lengthy thread possibly proves?),
and I'm not sure how to work out the details of this. But then
that's what groups like this are for, I guess.

(2) - Another way would be to make players roll general unarmed skill
against anything that lies outside their discipline. But again
this has its drawbacks, as you then get into a move by move system,
which is not what SR does, and indeed, nor is a good idea, IMHO.

(3) - Takeing a leaf from SR2's book, and give what I said in (1),
another method of doing this would be to insist that players took an
Unarmed specialisation if they took the skill, similar to etiquette in
SR2. This is probably my prefered option as it also forces players to
think harder about where and how their character learned to fight.
And you can still use the lower, general skill for unsusual test
situations.

(4) - Yet another approach would be to ignore the specific details of
melee moves and such and let the SR mechanism represent the fight more
abstractly, and allow more roleplaying in combat than thinking about
some specific moves.

I realise I've wandered a little, but these are some of my thoughts
that I've been meaning to post but not got round to yet.

On a final note, I would like to ask what people think of Mongoose's
melee style rules in The Shadowrun Suplemental #11
(http://shadowrun.html.com/tss/tss-11/art11-b.htm)

I think they are superb. I've not been fully happy with any of the
alternative rules that I have seen, and I think Mongoose's ideas are
the best yet, for many reasons.

1) They stay general, and don't get into blow-by-blow.
2) They allow players to express the style in which their character
fights, and generally increase the roleplaying level
3) They allow those who want to be superb hand to hand folks to spend
karma on more than just increasing their skill, but to become more
versatile and flexable
4) They don't just add extra dice, they modifiy target numbers and
provide unseen before abilities to increase the fun of the tactical
side of melee combat, which before was a case of simply slugging it
out
5) It provides a use for the general skill unarmed combat and resolves
(for me) some of the issues I suggested earlier.

Anyway that's my first $0.02 to this group. Sorrey it's a bit
lengthy!

--
Wavy Davy (who shares wins)
...If I had a nickname, I think I would want it to be "Prince of Weasels",
because then I could go up and bite people and they would turn around and go,
"What the-?" And then they would recognize me, and go, "Oh, it's you, the
Prince of Weasels."
Message no. 10
From: Jill Menning jinx@*******.Com
Subject: Martial Arts vs. Brawling
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 12:01:25 -0500
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Wavy Davy <ctysmd@***.leeds.ac.uk>
Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 15:07:53 +0000 (GMT)

> (1) - There was a significant breakdown of skills from SR2 to SR3
> (Firearms and Armed Combat, for example), which I think was a good
> thing, the skills being a bit general for my tastes. But Unarmed
> Combat remained the same. I think this is unrealistic as I am of
> the persausion that there is no such thing as a 'general' fighter,
> everyone has there own style and emphasis and techniques. One more
> realistic version might possibly be to break down the Unmarmed
> combat skill, into various Martial Arts and other 'disciplines'.
> This is quite tricky as the SR melee combat system is (IMO)
> somewhat lacking (as this lengthy thread possibly proves?),
> and I'm not sure how to work out the details of this. But then
> that's what groups like this are for, I guess.

Breaking up a firearms skill works well because you can purchase weapons by the same
categories as you learn the skills. All that you, as a player, need to know about your
weaponry is the stats in the books and a little common sense. Unarmed combat is more
complicated, and if you don't know anything about fighting outside of the movies, you'll
have problems figuring out what falls under each category. What would you break unarmed
combat up into?

>
> (2) - Another way would be to make players roll general unarmed skill
> against anything that lies outside their discipline. But again
> this has its drawbacks, as you then get into a move by move system,
> which is not what SR does, and indeed, nor is a good idea, IMHO.

Also it creates problems when the players have no personal experience with any particular
style of unarmed combat, outside of Jackie Chan movies, or the like. If you don't know
what is "outside their discipline", you can't tell whether or not to apply such
a modifier. Along the same lines as (1) breaking up the unarmed combat skill.

> (3) - Takeing a leaf from SR2's book, and give what I said in (1),
> another method of doing this would be to insist that players took an
> Unarmed specialisation if they took the skill, similar to etiquette in
> SR2. This is probably my prefered option as it also forces players to
> think harder about where and how their character learned to fight.
> And you can still use the lower, general skill for unsusual test
> situations.

Forcing a specialization is a good idea, and one my GM insists on, even if it doesn't play
a huge role in the melee combat itself - it's more of a roleplaying thing.

> (4) - Yet another approach would be to ignore the specific details of
> melee moves and such and let the SR mechanism represent the fight more
> abstractly, and allow more roleplaying in combat than thinking about
> some specific moves.

This, along with (3) are the ideas I personally like best. Even if SR did officially move
to more complex unarmed combat rules, I have a feeling that my group would fall back on
the abstractions, because we are not, ourselves, fighters of any kind.

My point, in case it was not clear from my comments above, is that more specific unarmed
combat rules may be great for those who actually know something about it in the first
place :o) but for the rest of us, there would be significant headaches if it gets broken
up and complicated.

> 1) They stay general, and don't get into blow-by-blow.
> 2) They allow players to express the style in which their character
> fights, and generally increase the roleplaying level
> 3) They allow those who want to be superb hand to hand folks to spend
> karma on more than just increasing their skill, but to become more
> versatile and flexable
> 4) They don't just add extra dice, they modifiy target numbers and
> provide unseen before abilities to increase the fun of the tactical
> side of melee combat, which before was a case of simply slugging it
> out
> 5) It provides a use for the general skill unarmed combat and resolves
> (for me) some of the issues I suggested earlier.

I agree :o) Even non-combatants such as myself could use this system. Actually, I think
the system is pretty slick, and I'm looking forward to convincing my GM to let me try it
:o) Thanks for pointing it out.

Jinx
Message no. 11
From: Wavy Davy ctysmd@***.leeds.ac.uk
Subject: Martial Arts vs. Brawling
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 11:31:48 +0000 (GMT)
On Thu, 16 Mar 2000, Jill Menning wrote:


>>> Breaking up a firearms skill works well because you can purchase weapons by
the same categories as you learn the skills. All that you, as a player, need to know about
your weaponry is the stats in the books and a little common sense. Unarmed combat is more
complicated, and if you don't know anything about fighting outside of the movies, you'll
have problems figuring out what falls under each category. What would you break unarmed
combat up into?

I don't know, but thats kinda wahy I asked :) I agree it's not a good
system, but maybe more suitable to players who can actually kick ass
IRL

> Forcing a specialization is a good idea, and one my GM insists on, even if it doesn't
play a huge role in the melee combat itself - it's more of a roleplaying thing.

Exactly my point (honest!)

> > (4) - Yet another approach would be to ignore the specific details of
> > melee moves and such and let the SR mechanism represent the fight more
> > abstractly, and allow more roleplaying in combat than thinking about
> > some specific moves.

> This, along with (3) are the ideas I personally like best. Even if SR did officially
move to more complex unarmed combat rules, I have a feeling that my group would fall back
on the abstractions, because we are not, ourselves, fighters of any kind.

I could kick my little brothers butt when he was 6. Does that count? :)

> My point, in case it was not clear from my comments above, is that more specific
unarmed combat rules may be great for those who actually know something about it in the
first place :o) but for the rest of us, there would be significant headaches if it gets
broken up and complicated.

This was kinda the point I was trying to make (all be it not as well)

> >[snip comments on Mongoose's sty;e rules]

> I agree :o) Even non-combatants such as myself could use this system. Actually, I
think the system is pretty slick, and I'm looking forward to convincing my GM to let me
try it :o) Thanks for pointing it out.

My pleasure. I have tested them some what and found them very
playable, although I have gone a bit crazy and created some styles of
my own and altered some of the original ones :)

--
Wavy Davy (who shares wins)
...Many people do not realize that the snowshoe can be used for a great many
things besides walking on snow. For instance, it can be used to carry pancakes
from the stove to the breakfast table. Also, it can be used to carry uneaten
pancakes from the table to the garbage. Finally, it can be used as a kind of
stainer, where you force pancakes through the strings to see if a piece of
gold got in a pancake somehow.

Further Reading

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