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Message no. 1
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Masking Adept
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:55:07 -0500
> From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
> Date: Monday, December 29, 1997 9:16 PM

> On 27 Dec 97 at 11:10, Gurth wrote:

> OK (damn, the guy started as a cheap solution to a dumb problem, and now
> I'm doing metaphysics...). How about this. The masking is (as I said
> earlier, IIRC) somekind of shapechange/invisebility-spell transformed to
> the aura. Read: The aura does not change, other people's perception of
the
> aura does.

While the mechanics may be different, the result is the same. No matter
what mechanics you use to achieve it, you get a result that isn't allowed
in the canon SR universe.

<Snip>

> > That's a very good example of not _really_ fitting in with the existing
> > magical logic, IMHO. Invisibility spells don't work on the astral
plane,
> > so the only things that comes close is metamagical masking -- and even
> > that can't _hide_ an aura, only alter it slightly: you can still be
> > recognized as you, only you're not giving away that you're an initiate
or
> > even a magician. Total "aural invisibility" is quite a big step
forward
> > from that, if you ask me.

> It's not. Same song, different verse. If I make someone on the physical
> plane think I'm not there, or if I make someone on the astral plane think
> I'm not there...there isn't much difference. I'm tweaking peoples (and
> spirit's/critter's) minds, not my aura.

How can I put this? Okay. You are, in effect, making yourself invisible
on the astral plane. This is expressly forbidden in the canon rules - and
with good reason. The reprocussions of allowing astral invisibility (no
matter how you work the mechanics) reach far and wide. The Disregard spell
does the same thing you wish to do, but only on the physical plane - it
makes others believe you are not there. It doesn't make you physically
invisible to the eye. However, the end result is basically the same - they
pay no attention to you, nor will they attack you (unless they defeat the
spell, of course).

Thus, if you do what you wish to do on the astral plane, you are creating a
way to make yourself not visible on the astral plane. The astral plane is
the most difficult place to work an illusion. Why? It's VERY difficult to
hide the truth on the astral plane. This is why eveyone shows their true
form on the astral plane, except for powerful spirits and the Metamagical
ability of Masking which simply alters ONE piece of information in the
magician's aura. An Initiate can't come close to what you wish them to
achieve according to the canon rules.

IMO, it's not a good idea to allow what you desire. However, that's what
house rules are for. :)

> Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther
physad.

Justin :)
Message no. 2
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Masking Adept
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:29:14 EST
In a message dated 97-12-29 21:52:32 EST, vanyel@*******.NET writes:

>
> How can I put this? Okay. You are, in effect, making yourself invisible
> on the astral plane. This is expressly forbidden in the canon rules - and
> with good reason. The reprocussions of allowing astral invisibility (no
> matter how you work the mechanics) reach far and wide. The Disregard spell
> does the same thing you wish to do, but only on the physical plane - it
> makes others believe you are not there. It doesn't make you physically
> invisible to the eye. However, the end result is basically the same - they
> pay no attention to you, nor will they attack you (unless they defeat the
> spell, of course).
>
Okay, time to step back in just a bit...reconsider Disregard my dear
friend...it's a more "mental" thing, and thus has effects that can go beyond
the "physical world."

-K
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Masking Adept
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:42:59 +0100
Ereskanti said on 23:29/29 Dec 97...

> Okay, time to step back in just a bit...reconsider Disregard my dear
> friend...it's a more "mental" thing, and thus has effects that can go
beyond
> the "physical world."

Unfortunately, the description doesn't say whether it works on the astral
plane or not, but since, as you say, it's more of a mental effect than
anything else, I've ruled that in my game it doesn't matter what plane the
subject of the spell is on.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There are two things you can do...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 4
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Masking Adept
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:11:47 -0500
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Date: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 4:42 AM

> Ereskanti said on 23:29/29 Dec 97...

> > Okay, time to step back in just a bit...reconsider Disregard my dear
> > friend...it's a more "mental" thing, and thus has effects that can go
beyond
> > the "physical world."

> Unfortunately, the description doesn't say whether it works on the astral
> plane or not, but since, as you say, it's more of a mental effect than
> anything else, I've ruled that in my game it doesn't matter what plane
the
> subject of the spell is on.

IMO, that's a bit unbalancing. In canon SR, no mortal (meta)human has the
ability to hide themself on the astral plane - unless you allow this spell
to do so. And with a measly drain code of Force/2 M, it obviously
shouldn't be that powerful.

Remember, the astral plane is the hardest place to conceal the truth. I
mean, your aura ALWAYS shows its true form on the astral, with only 2
exceptions - Masking (and there's only ONE aspect you can change with
that), or being a powerful spirit.

To me, it would be logical that there shouldn't be a spell that ANY
magician can learn with a low drain code that would allow you to hide
yourself on the astral plane. That's just absurd. It also follows that if
the only way to alter one's aura is via a metamagical ability, you
shouldn't be able to work other feats of Illusion on the astral plane
without the need for metamagic as well (although I don't see allowing this
as a good thing anyway).

Sure, the spell doens't specifically state that it doesn't work on the
astral plane, but with a bit of comparison and logic, it would make sense
that it wouldn't. Remember, it's not the letter, but the spirit of the
rules that matter most.

> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116

Justin :)
Message no. 5
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Masking Adept
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:33:34 +0100
>> > Okay, time to step back in just a bit...reconsider Disregard my dear
>> > friend...it's a more "mental" thing, and thus has effects that can
go
>beyond
>> > the "physical world."
>
>> Unfortunately, the description doesn't say whether it works on the astral
>> plane or not, but since, as you say, it's more of a mental effect than
>> anything else, I've ruled that in my game it doesn't matter what plane
>the
>> subject of the spell is on.
>Sure, the spell doens't specifically state that it doesn't work on the
>astral plane, but with a bit of comparison and logic, it would make sense
>that it wouldn't. Remember, it's not the letter, but the spirit of the
>rules that matter most.

I see two reasons why this spell doesn't work.
- The first is the way I see astral plane. IMHO when you cast a spell in
astral plane, it's pure energy and nothing else. The reason is that (again
IMO :) magical energy creates its effect (i.e. the spell effect) when it
crosses from one plane (astral) to the other (physical). I think this
interpretation (because nothing states it's not like this in the SR
background) is in accordance to the fact that astral plane is the realm of
reality (i.e. True forms). Oh, now I think about a way to cast a spell in
astral plane. You would have to cast the spell with the use of pure
metaplanar magical energy (IMO this energy is beyong another *gate*)...
- The second is that I remember (perhaps I'm wrong - Gurth or Sascha surely
could state if I'm right or not) that you cannot use area effect spells in
astral plane (must something like there is only melee combat in astral,
even if you cast a spell). So, your spell would only work (if you assume
the first reason isn't fine) on a target. To affect multiple targets, you
would have to cast your spell in a multitarget mode or cast it multiple
times. I think that with such a limitation, it's reasonnably powerful
because you would have to win against the willpower or the intelligence of
the victim and would still be noticeable by other beings. This would change
a bit the way corporations (and so lonestar) would use astral patrols.
These would be made by two beings (when it worked with one) or three (when
it worked with one) : The first two to notice the mage and the (optionnal)
third to come back to give alert.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 6
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Masking Adept
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:58:35 -0500
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:11:47 -0500 Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
writes:
>
>> Unfortunately, the description doesn't say whether it works on the
astral
>> plane or not, but since, as you say, it's more of a mental effect than
>> anything else, I've ruled that in my game it doesn't matter what plane
the
>> subject of the spell is on.
>
>IMO, that's a bit unbalancing. In canon SR, no mortal (meta)human has
the
>ability to hide themself on the astral plane - unless you allow this
spell
>to do so. And with a measly drain code of Force/2 M, it obviously
>shouldn't be that powerful.

Last time I heard - and don't quote me on this - the Dragon Heart Saga
is being considered canon. In it, Ryan Mercury manages to meld into the
background of the astral by leaning against a tree and modifying his
aura. Now, if Mercury turns into an IE in the next book, I'll stand
corrected. Until then, though....

>Sure, the spell doens't specifically state that it doesn't work on the
>astral plane, but with a bit of comparison and logic, it would make
sense
>that it wouldn't. Remember, it's not the letter, but the spirit of the
>rules that matter most.

With a little bit of common sense, he says. We're discussing the magic
rules for a game set 61 years into the future, and you're talking about
common sense. =) I would have to say, though, that any spirit with a
force of more than 1.5 times the force of the spell could see through it.
To me, that's the spirit of the rules. With magic, anything is possible.

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page Under Construction!

Some people simply are a waste of space on the buttocks of humanity.
-- Avenger

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Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Masking Adept
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:28:40 +0100
Justin Pinnow said on 8:11/30 Dec 97...

> > Unfortunately, the description doesn't say whether it works on the astral
> > plane or not, but since, as you say, it's more of a mental effect than
> > anything else, I've ruled that in my game it doesn't matter what plane the
> > subject of the spell is on.
>
> IMO, that's a bit unbalancing. In canon SR, no mortal (meta)human has the
> ability to hide themself on the astral plane - unless you allow this spell
> to do so. And with a measly drain code of Force/2 M, it obviously
> shouldn't be that powerful.
>
> Remember, the astral plane is the hardest place to conceal the truth. I
> mean, your aura ALWAYS shows its true form on the astral, with only 2
> exceptions - Masking (and there's only ONE aspect you can change with
> that), or being a powerful spirit.

The reason I've ruled Disregard works on the astral plane is because of
the way it works: you don't become invisible, hide yourself or your aura,
or anything like that. Quite the contrary; you can be standing out in the
open without any cover for kilometers around, but the people with you
pretend you're simply not there, and don't know they're doing it.

Disregard is a spell that works on the mind, and since IMHO you take your
mind with you onto the astral plane, I allow Disregard to work there as
well as on the physical plane.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There are two things you can do...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 8
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Masking Adept
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:41:52 +0100
>The reason I've ruled Disregard works on the astral plane is because of
>the way it works: you don't become invisible, hide yourself or your aura,
>or anything like that. Quite the contrary; you can be standing out in the
>open without any cover for kilometers around, but the people with you
>pretend you're simply not there, and don't know they're doing it.
>
>Disregard is a spell that works on the mind, and since IMHO you take your
>mind with you onto the astral plane, I allow Disregard to work there as
>well as on the physical plane.

Yep. I agree but the TN should be the intelligence or the willpower of the
victim and not a simple 4. I haven't read this spell for some time so if
the target isn't 4, tell me. I remember that when I saw the spell for the
first time I said it was the same mechanics.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 9
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Masking Adept
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:28:57 +0000
On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:58:35 -0500 George H Metz pondered

> Last time I heard - and don't quote me on this - the Dragon Heart Saga
> is being considered canon. In it, Ryan Mercury manages to meld into the
> background of the astral by leaning against a tree and modifying his
> aura. Now, if Mercury turns into an IE in the next book, I'll stand
> corrected. Until then, though....

Two things :
1.) If asking FASA for clarifications they do admit that the fiction
books don't necessarily adhere to the rules. Otherwise It's time for
shamans to have multiple spirits (1+ Initiate Grade maybe ?) since
there is a shaman in there who blatantly has multiple spirits.
Unless of course they are multiple ally spirits.

2.) As stated in that book, Ryan Mercury was trained by Dunkelzahn
himself, and has phenomenal powers to boot. If other people can
boast the same (and I can't see other dragons allowing mortals as
close to themselves as Dunk) they might be comparable.
Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
Message no. 10
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Masking Adept
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 02:55:14 EST
In a message dated 97-12-31 13:30:42 EST, A.Gardner@******.COM writes:

> > Last time I heard - and don't quote me on this - the Dragon Heart Saga
> > is being considered canon. In it, Ryan Mercury manages to meld into the
> > background of the astral by leaning against a tree and modifying his
> > aura. Now, if Mercury turns into an IE in the next book, I'll stand
> > corrected. Until then, though....

Even if he is, that doesn't really matter. And besides, if I understand what
is upcoming, he's not immortal...just recycled (chuckle).

> Two things :
> 1.) If asking FASA for clarifications they do admit that the fiction
> books don't necessarily adhere to the rules. Otherwise It's time for
> shamans to have multiple spirits (1+ Initiate Grade maybe ?) since
> there is a shaman in there who blatantly has multiple spirits.
> Unless of course they are multiple ally spirits.

I think the "Saga Canon" thing is due because of how Jak is working directly
with Mike and others to make sure the "Saga" follows through with what is
planned for SR.

> 2.) As stated in that book, Ryan Mercury was trained by Dunkelzahn
> himself, and has phenomenal powers to boot. If other people can
> boast the same (and I can't see other dragons allowing mortals as
> close to themselves as Dunk) they might be comparable.
> Fox on the Net

OH come on

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Masking Adept, you may also be interested in:

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