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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Markus Widmer)
Subject: materializing inside things
Date: Tue Jun 25 03:15:02 2002
Hi everyone!

Let me first introduce myself, since I am new to the list. I'm a
28-year-old Swiss living in Vienna, Austria. I have played a rigger
in a lengthy shadowrun campaign and am now GMing my own campaign with
a very nice team, heading towards "Brainscan".

Now for my question. My players are a creative bunch. Once being
trailed by a Lone Star chopper, the team's mage had a water elemental
of hers materialize inside the helicopter's engine. I liked the idea
and had the pilot make a crash test. Ever since, however, the process
has been repeated, and my doubts are growing whether this was such a
great idea. I ask myself whether it is at all possible technically
for an astral being to materialize inside a dense technical
construction such as a motor, a computer or a drone. What do you
think?

Regards,
epcot
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Tommy Lindner)
Subject: materializing inside things
Date: Tue Jun 25 04:00:02 2002
Markus Widmer wrote:

> Once being trailed by a Lone Star chopper, the team's mage had a water
> elemental of hers materialize inside the helicopter's engine. I ask
> myself whether it is at all possible technically for an astral being to
> materialize inside a dense technical construction such as a motor, a
> computer or a drone. What do you
> think?

Let him do an object Resistence test, T# should be about 16 -> highly
manipulated tech, using the Force of the spirit. That should help in most
cases.

Greetings Tommy.
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: materializing inside things
Date: Tue Jun 25 04:20:02 2002
>From: Markus Widmer <markus.widmer@******.at>
<Snip>
>Now for my question. My players are a creative bunch. Once being
>trailed by a Lone Star chopper, the team's mage had a water elemental
>of hers materialize inside the helicopter's engine. I liked the idea
>and had the pilot make a crash test. Ever since, however, the process
>has been repeated, and my doubts are growing whether this was such a
>great idea. I ask myself whether it is at all possible technically
>for an astral being to materialize inside a dense technical
>construction such as a motor, a computer or a drone. What do you
>think?

I can't see any real problem with it, to a degree; (although I'm not totally
up to speed on the rules for spirits and elementals) however as it's
starting to get tedious I'd make one suggestion. Going through a gas turbine
involves blends of the elements fire, earth and air, the elemental (although
it isn't going to take any damage and is going to junk the engine) isn't
going to enjoy doing it. Perhaps an elemental rebellion is in order next
time they ask!
As to computers and drones I would suggest that you limit them by size, only
things that the elemental can get into and fit in.
Either that or have a Lone Star mage on board the chopper astrally
perceiving/projecting and banishing the thing before it can do anything,
then make them pay for not planning properly.

_________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Claus Thomsen)
Subject: materializing inside things
Date: Tue Jun 25 04:40:01 2002
Tommy Lindner wrote:
> Markus Widmer wrote:
>
>> Once being trailed by a Lone Star chopper, the team's mage had a
>> water elemental of hers materialize inside the helicopter's engine.
>> I ask myself whether it is at all possible technically for an
astral
>> being to materialize inside a dense technical construction such as
a
>> motor, a computer or a drone. What do you
>> think?
>
> Let him do an object Resistence test, T# should be about 16 ->
highly
> manipulated tech, using the Force of the spirit. That should help in
> most cases.
>
Or you could remind him that spirit have feelings too and as such
might object to being chopped up or electrocuted. Eventually the
spirits will find a way to make the player remember that his powers
should not be taken lightly.. fx. the next time it happens, the spirit
might time his materialization such that the helicopter will crash
within inches of the player;)

\cth
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: materializing inside things
Date: Tue Jun 25 05:00:04 2002
According to Markus Widmer, on Tue, 25 Jun 2002 the word on the street was...

> Now for my question. My players are a creative bunch. Once being
> trailed by a Lone Star chopper, the team's mage had a water elemental
> of hers materialize inside the helicopter's engine. I liked the idea
> and had the pilot make a crash test. Ever since, however, the process
> has been repeated, and my doubts are growing whether this was such a
> great idea. I ask myself whether it is at all possible technically
> for an astral being to materialize inside a dense technical
> construction such as a motor, a computer or a drone. What do you
> think?

From a GM perspective, I think this would count as engulfing the helicopter
(or its engine). As such, it's not something that will happen automatically
just by the spirit manifesting, but requires some dice rolling to see how
effective it is. I'd apply the engulf damage to the vehicle as a whole, and
when it reaches Serious, let the driver make a Crash Test (as normal).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Little ever changes, if anything at all
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Peter Kristiansen)
Subject: materializing inside things
Date: Tue Jun 25 05:55:01 2002
Claus Thomsen wrote:
> Or you could remind him that spirit have feelings too and as such
> might object to being chopped up or electrocuted. Eventually the

Actually this kind of behaviour is a very good reason to dig out Threats
(the first one) and look for tutor.

But for the actual effect I think I'll agree with Gurth on this one, and
just treat as an engulf attack.

If this seems to happen on a regular basis that excessive amounts of
water seems is the single biggest reason for crashes of security
'copters just add Engine seal :-)

Peter
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: materializing inside things
Date: Tue Jun 25 10:20:01 2002
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Markus Widmer wrote:

> Let me first introduce myself, since I am new to the list.

Welcome to ShadowRN!

> Now for my question. My players are a creative bunch. Once being
> trailed by a Lone Star chopper, the team's mage had a water elemental
> of hers materialize inside the helicopter's engine. I liked the idea
> and had the pilot make a crash test. Ever since, however, the process
> has been repeated, and my doubts are growing whether this was such a
> great idea.

Okay, in addition to the inherent problems with manifesting inside
a dense object, there's another problem to consider. As of SR3, a spirit
using one of its powers out of line of sight of the mage is considered to
be on a remote service. Thus, as long as the manifestation is taking
place out of the mage's LOS (which the inside of an engine is presumed to
be), it would qualify as a remote service. Same thing with fire
elementals manifesting in fuel tanks (one of my favorites from my old days
of playing a combat mage).
I can't remember off the top of my head, but I *believe* that
remote service requires the summoning mage to specify said service at the
time of summoning. Since summoning an elemental takes hours, it's
unlikely that summoning an elemental for the express purposes of
destroying a pursuing chopper will be overly handy. And since nature
spirits are confined by domains and *can't* be sent on remote service,
they're of little help either.
Basically, I think that particular rules loophole has been closed.
I'll take a look at my source books tonight (don't have them with me) and
find you the pertinent page numbers and sections.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

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David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Markus Widmer)
Subject: AW: materializing inside things
Date: Tue Jun 25 10:50:01 2002
-----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
Von: Marc Renouf [SMTP:renouf@********.com]
Gesendet am: Dienstag, 25. Juni 2002 16:21
An: 'shadowrn@*********.com'
Betreff: Re: materializing inside things

I can't remember off the top of my head, but I *believe* that
remote service requires the summoning mage to specify said service at
the
time of summoning. Since summoning an elemental takes hours, it's
unlikely that summoning an elemental for the express purposes of
destroying a pursuing chopper will be overly handy. And since nature
spirits are confined by domains and *can't* be sent on remote
service,
they're of little help either.


I looked it up myself, SR3, page 187. Remote services can be
commanded the ordinary way, not only at the time of summoning. On the
other hand, ALL other services the elemental might owe the mage
vanish and it is free of its bond. That is definitely a turn-off for
the over-use of elementals materializing inside things.

Tommy suggested that object resistance should be taken into
consideration. Object restistance, however, is a normally used for
spellcasting, and the manifestation of an elemental is not quite a
spell, although critter powers can sometimes be treated like spells.

Treating the materialization as an attempt at engulfing, as suggested
by Gurth, is quite an elegant solution, although not entirely the
same thing. My players tend to be nitpicking with such details, so
I'll have a hard time arguing that one. Even more so, since I don't
like to bring up the point: "I am the GM and that makes me right."

I like Claus's idea that the elementals being electrocuted during
their remote service could be rather vengeful. I'll have the next
water elemental the mage summons vanish back to the astral planes,
shouting "oh no, it's the chopper girl!". *gggg*

Anyway, thanks for your responses. You made a newbie feel welcome.
:-)

Yours,
Markus 'epcot' Widmer
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: AW: materializing inside things
Date: Tue Jun 25 11:05:01 2002
At 04:50 PM 6/25/2002 +0200, Markus Widmer wrote:


>-----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
>Von: Marc Renouf [SMTP:renouf@********.com]
>Gesendet am: Dienstag, 25. Juni 2002 16:21
>An: 'shadowrn@*********.com'
>Betreff: Re: materializing inside things
>
>Treating the materialization as an attempt at engulfing, as suggested
>by Gurth, is quite an elegant solution, although not entirely the
>same thing. My players tend to be nitpicking with such details, so
>I'll have a hard time arguing that one. Even more so, since I don't
>like to bring up the point: "I am the GM and that makes me right."

If you have nitpicking players, then you have an easy way out. Nowhere in
the descriptions of elementals does it say they can materialize inside of
physical objects, or spaces smaller then themselves. Therefor, it can't be
done. Problem solved ;)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
--
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: materializing inside things
Date: Tue Jun 25 11:25:01 2002
On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:13:20 +0200
Markus Widmer <markus.widmer@******.at> wrote:

> Now for my question. My players are a creative bunch. Once being
> trailed by a Lone Star chopper, the team's mage had a water elemental
> of hers materialize inside the helicopter's engine. I liked the idea
> and had the pilot make a crash test. Ever since, however, the process
> has been repeated, and my doubts are growing whether this was such a
> great idea. I ask myself whether it is at all possible technically
> for an astral being to materialize inside a dense technical
> construction such as a motor, a computer or a drone. What do you
> think?

Well, if there is enough space for the being to form inside the engine
or computer, there's no reason why this shouldn't happen. Even if there
isn't enough space (as long as there is some), it could still manifest,
but would have a lot of water flowing out of that engine, and probably
bursting it with the pressure.

Spirits with solid forms (such as earth elementals) couldn't pull this
kind of stunt, because they need a lot of empty space to materialize,
and two bodies can occupy the same place :).

--
Bira -- homem saído das entranhas da Terra para mudar o destino da humanidade,
usando apenas um filhote de urubu e um rolo de "silver tape"...
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: materializing inside things
Date: Tue Jun 25 12:00:02 2002
>Well, if there is enough space for the being to form inside the engine
>or computer, there's no reason why this shouldn't happen. Even if there
>isn't enough space (as long as there is some), it could still manifest,
>but would have a lot of water flowing out of that engine, and probably
>bursting it with the pressure.

I'd have to say I'd go with the engine seal idea, a helicopter is (normally)
powered by a gas turbine engine which has problems if it starts to ingest
water, they've tried the idea enough times (by the sound of it) for air
accident investigators to conclude that the current designs are flawed, (It
rains a lot in Seattle (if you're not playing there then bear with me) so
the choppers are likely to have a degree of water sealing anyway) obviously
the current engines are ingesting water, either from rain or vapour, more
frequently than could be described as a freak accident. So all helicopters
bought legally and still in the system (which rules out the 'runners finding
out without looking) get a visit from a technician who retrofits the intakes
with a higher level of water seal.

Still with me?

Next time your mage tries to summon a water elemental they get the subtle
hint of "Oh No, you're the chopper girl!"
If they still try the same trick the elemental tries to perform the remote
service, fails because of the new seals, vanishes back home and leaves the
runners with an unperturbed helo still following them and trying for a
missile lock and a whole lot less in the way of magical support.
End the session there, just for half an hour if you don't want to go longer,
make the coffee, have a smoke (if you do) and let the players stew on the
problem; if yours are anything like mine they'll try to badger you with
questions, try not to answer any relating to why, or if you have to - answer
them enigmatically. By the time you start to play again they (if they're
anything like mine) will be panicing a little, Plan A didn't work and
they've not come up with a plan B, Let them get out of it, fudge some dice
rolls if nessecary (not something I normally say but sometimes it really
helps) so that they come out by the skin of their teeth, hospitallise a
couple of them if you can and force them to shell out for repairs to their
vehicle(s) but let them just make it through...
Give them a little extra Karma if they do come up with a decent way out but
leave them stinging from the beatings their characters just took.
Sometimes it's best to learn from your mistakes, especially the really big
ones like being predictable.

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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: materializing inside things
Date: Tue Jun 25 13:15:01 2002
According to Peter Kristiansen, on Tue, 25 Jun 2002 the word on the street was...

> If this seems to happen on a regular basis that excessive amounts of
> water seems is the single biggest reason for crashes of security
> 'copters just add Engine seal :-)

Another way to teach players not to rely on tricks like this too much is to put
a security magician in the helicopter, using astral perception. Or maybe even
better, astrally projecting along with it. This should give the magician the
chance to attack (or start banishing) the elemental before it can manifest in
(engulf) the engine. It's my experience that if this sort of thing happens once,
the players will remember it next time and think twice before trying the same
trick again as a matter of course.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Little ever changes, if anything at all
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: AW: materializing inside things
Date: Tue Jun 25 13:15:03 2002
According to Markus Widmer, on Tue, 25 Jun 2002 the word on the street was...

> Treating the materialization as an attempt at engulfing, as suggested
> by Gurth, is quite an elegant solution, although not entirely the
> same thing.

That's what I figured as well, but OTOH it can be argued that they're two
sides of the same coin. Not to mention that engulfing the engine would be an
easier way of crashing a helicopter than manifesting inside the engine, IMHO
-- engulfing it would cut off the air supply, after all, forcing the pilot
to autorotate to the ground. (The snag here, from a game rules perspective,
is that damage to the engine wouldn't matter in that case.)

> Anyway, thanks for your responses. You made a newbie feel welcome.

Just one request: could you please differentiate a bit more clearly between
quoted text and your reply? Thanks :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Little ever changes, if anything at all
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steven Hadfield)
Subject: materializing inside things
Date: Tue Jun 25 16:20:01 2002
--- Markus Widmer <markus.widmer@******.at> wrote: >
Hi everyone!
>
> Let me first introduce myself, since I am new to the
> list. I'm a
> 28-year-old Swiss living in Vienna, Austria. I have
> played a rigger
> in a lengthy shadowrun campaign and am now GMing my
> own campaign with
> a very nice team, heading towards "Brainscan".
>
> Now for my question. My players are a creative
> bunch. Once being
> trailed by a Lone Star chopper, the team's mage had
> a water elemental
> of hers materialize inside the helicopter's engine.
> I liked the idea
> and had the pilot make a crash test. Ever since,
> however, the process
> has been repeated, and my doubts are growing whether
> this was such a
> great idea. I ask myself whether it is at all
> possible technically
> for an astral being to materialize inside a dense
> technical
> construction such as a motor, a computer or a drone.
> What do you
> think?
>
> Regards,
> epcot

As far as I can tell it is perfectly feasible
technically speaking. However police are very good at
patterns and it's very easy for an astrally projecting
Lone Star mage to keep up with a chopper - make them
suffer ;).

Steve


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