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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Sun Jun 9 02:25:00 2002
How does one rationalize the descrepancy between SR3 memory costs (20nY/Mp)
and Matrix memory costs (6nY/Mp or 7.5nY/Mp)? To me it doesn't make sense
that the memory for lap-top sized computers is cheaper than the stuff for
table top computers.

What is with all the junk on page 63 of Matrix? Does anyone actually make
their deckers buy 150nY power cords and 100nY casings (that it takes a test
to add/remove) and remember how much fiberoptic cabling they have for their
Matrix interface? Also, WTF does "add 10 percent to the cost" (p 67 and
170) mean?

IMO, Adding the trace modifiers when chaining matrix connections doesn't
make a lot of sense. Could anyone explain the rationale to me. It makes
more sense to me that a trace would only get the modifier last one
(farthest from the decker). From there, the connection would be dedicated
(and therefore trivial) to trace, but I don't think it would make the
first-tier easier to find.

In general, there doesn't seem like anything interesting on the matrix is
even approachable by someone whose spend less than 150KnY on a deck plus
more on programs. This fails the logic test for me. If there's no way you
can make money with a 30KnY deck, there's not going to be any deckers
around that HAVE 150KnY decks. Could someone paint a scenario in which a
ganger (or any person without Megacorporate funding) becomes a decker?

The stats for the low-end cyberterminals seem to be wrong. I'm pretty sure
there's a rule about not having a persona program higher than your MPCP.
But, low and behold, joe-blow can get a cyber terminal that's 3/5/4/0/0
from any store that sells Sony. Even assuming that the terminal was
"stuck" in Bod/Sensor mode (that is, assuming you use the optional
cyberdeck mode rules...), you'd still only get a 3/4/4/0/0 because you
round down. Plus, there are NO persona stats for the stock cyberdecks
(which, of course, aren't really stock since masking is 2-S illegal, and
without masking they aren't really 'decks). What can you just choose
whatever you want?

How much damage does black hammer do? Is it really based on the security
rating of the host you are on (like black IC) that doesn't seem right,
since it seems like most utilities don't depend on the server. Maybe it
should have multiple multipliers based on damage, like Attack does.

Wizkids has GOT to make rules for running your own host from the shadows.
It would really open up the decker archetype. Small businesses have/rent
them, so they should definately be within the monetary reach of some
shadowrunners. This is quite a bit more complex than it costs X nY for Y
rating, because of bandwidth/usage/load issues (you can't tell be a
100ny/month host could actually handle the same number of users as the
arcology PLTG). The rules certaintly don't have to go into owning an
RTG/LTG or even PLTG, rules for owning a single host would be really nice.

Also, the matrix searching times and modifiers need to be better
normalized. Response Increase 2 shouldn't be the standard for the time
reqs because > 90% of the computers that get used for searching don't have
it. Using the custom cyberterm rules you'll probably end up spending
500KnY for an MPCP 8 deck, the minimum that can run response increase 2.
Also, they shouldn't use "if using response increase 1 or lower"; that's
not a good measure of how fast someone moves in the 'trix. No response
increase + Hot ASIST + DNI + Reality filter is just as fast as Response
increase 2 + Hot ASIST + Datajack.

The rule that teams can only program a utility/IC of rating equal to the
highest Computer (Programming) skill of all the members is stupid. How on
earth do rating 12 and 15 IC get made? From the descriptions of skill
levels in SR3, no one on earth should have a computer skill above 10 and
most programmers aren't going to have one above 8. Teams should be able to
write programs with rating eqals to the highest Computer (Programming)
skill of the group plus one for each member that has at least half (round
up) that skill or SOMETHING believable.

Is there any uppoer limit on the amount of hardening a terminal can have?

>From various rules in the Matrix book, it looks like all firmware code is
automatically adaptive. It often mentions running persona programs at
lower ratings if the MPCP is damaged. I think it even mentions something
like that for response increase. Doesn't it make sense then that the
firmware for stuff like response-increase, ASIST, etc. would work for any
MPCP, or at least any MPCP up to a certain rating and that an MPCP above
that rating could be "turned-down" to work with the old parts. The
mismatched components rule just seems to make it to hard to guadually
upgrade a deck, which is mandatory for a low-/fixed-income decker. There
aren't a lot of runs that net you 500KnY (Enough for a decent 8 MPCP deck,
think much higher for a 10 or 12 [the minimum to get 6d6 matrix
initiative]).

Thinking about the above, couldn't a decker make his firmware
on-adaptive? -2 Rating as an option?

Also, I have a few errata for Matrix, but I guess FanPro isn't reprinting
it yet...

Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr.
bss03@****.edu
ICQ# 514984
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Sun Jun 9 05:40:01 2002
According to Da Twink Daddy, on Sun, 09 Jun 2002 the word on the street was...

> How does one rationalize the descrepancy between SR3 memory costs
> (20nY/Mp) and Matrix memory costs (6nY/Mp or 7.5nY/Mp)? To me it doesn't
> make sense that the memory for lap-top sized computers is cheaper than
> the stuff for table top computers.

Blah blah interfaces blah blah buffers blah blah wiring blah blah... :)

IOW: I agree with you that this just doesn't fit together. Which is why, in
my current campaign, I've made PCs equivalent to cyberdecks in the way
they're constructed and their costs are calculated. It's just that a PC has a
lot less stuff in it than a cyberdeck does: no persona programs, no ASIST,
and so on.

> What is with all the junk on page 63 of Matrix? Does anyone actually
> make their deckers buy 150nY power cords and 100nY casings (that it takes
> a test to add/remove) and remember how much fiberoptic cabling they have
> for their Matrix interface?

These are prime examples of how Matrix prices have been made to fit what
deckers are paid, instead of the other way around. We had a big row^H^H^H
thread about that a few months ago :)

> Also, WTF does "add 10 percent to the cost" (p 67 and 170) mean?

It probably means that if you want things hardwired, it costs 10% extra, per
the rules on page 62. The strange thing, though, is that those rules say
hardwiring is _cheaper_...

> In general, there doesn't seem like anything interesting on the matrix is
> even approachable by someone whose spend less than 150KnY on a deck plus
> more on programs. This fails the logic test for me. If there's no way
> you can make money with a 30KnY deck, there's not going to be any deckers
> around that HAVE 150KnY decks. Could someone paint a scenario in which a
> ganger (or any person without Megacorporate funding) becomes a decker?

Not me. Which is one of the reasons why I've decided to divide all cyberdeck
prices by 25, and all software prices by 10: it makes the decks affordable to
people who haven't already made a couple hundred thousand nuyen.

> The stats for the low-end cyberterminals seem to be wrong. I'm pretty
> sure there's a rule about not having a persona program higher than your
> MPCP.

There is.

> But, low and behold, joe-blow can get a cyber terminal that's
> 3/5/4/0/0 from any store that sells Sony.

That is strange, yes... I hadn't noticed it, but then I haven't looked at the
cyberterminals for more than about a second.

> Wizkids has GOT to make rules for running your own host from the shadows.

Host construction rules were written up for Matrix, but weren't in the actual
book :(

> Is there any uppoer limit on the amount of hardening a terminal can have?

The amount of money you're willing to spend, and/or how well you can roll.

--
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Little ever changes, if anything at all
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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Tue Jun 11 04:35:00 2002
>From: "Da Twink Daddy" <datwinkdaddy@*******.com>
>How does one rationalize the descrepancy between SR3 memory costs (20nY/Mp)
>and Matrix memory costs (6nY/Mp or 7.5nY/Mp)? To me it doesn't make sense
>that the memory for lap-top sized computers is cheaper than the stuff for
>table top computers.

Call it the bulk buy discount if you want (although I'm pretty sure that
you're getting a little confused on that one) IIRC pocket computer memory is
5¥ / Mp (and that includes processor, casing...etc.)

>In general, there doesn't seem like anything interesting on the matrix is
>even approachable by someone whose spend less than 150KnY on a deck plus
>more on programs. This fails the logic test for me. If there's no way you
>can make money with a 30KnY deck, there's not going to be any deckers
>around that HAVE 150KnY decks. Could someone paint a scenario in which a
>ganger (or any person without Megacorporate funding) becomes a decker?

My character recently made a sequence of scores on his Allegiance Sigma
(14k¥ deck) which were big enough together for him to pay another decker
50k¥ for his assistance and buy a brand new, "still got the factory sticker
on it!" Kraftwerk - 8 (400k¥ deck).
It matters less what you're running, more how determined you are to make it
work.

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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Tue Jun 11 17:05:04 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lone Eagle" <loneeagle2061@*******.com>


> >How does one rationalize the descrepancy between SR3 memory costs
(20nY/Mp)
> >and Matrix memory costs (6nY/Mp or 7.5nY/Mp)? To me it doesn't make
sense
> >that the memory for lap-top sized computers is cheaper than the stuff for
> >table top computers.

> Call it the bulk buy discount if you want (although I'm pretty sure that
> you're getting a little confused on that one) IIRC pocket computer memory
is
> 5¥ / Mp (and that includes processor, casing...etc.)

>From SR#:
Table Top computer costs "Memory Cost"
Pocket computer costs "5x Memory Cost"
Wrist Computer costs "20x Memory Cost"
Computer Memory (non-Cyber) costs "20nY / Mp"

Also, when I play a decker I want my Table-top computer to have MORE memory
than by 'deck because I want to store all my programs on it (off-line)
including firmware and have it available for developing. (Sometimes, it
really depends on the decker.) So, shouldn't I get a "bulk discount" on the
computer rather than on the deck?

> >In general, there doesn't seem like anything interesting on the matrix is
> >even approachable by someone whose spend less than 150KnY on a deck plus
> >more on programs.

> My character recently made a sequence of scores on his Allegiance Sigma
> (14k¥ deck) which were big enough together for him to
> buy a brand new, "still got the factory sticker
> on it!" Kraftwerk - 8 (400k¥ deck).

Wow! Could I get some more details, I'd like to know how much you got paid
for what. Just to see if it fits with my flavor of SR.

--
Da Twink Daddy (still not on his computer)
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Wed Jun 12 04:45:01 2002
>From: "Da Twink Daddy" <datwinkdaddy@*******.com>
<Snip>
>From SR#:
>Table Top computer costs "Memory Cost"
>Pocket computer costs "5x Memory Cost"
>Wrist Computer costs "20x Memory Cost"
>Computer Memory (non-Cyber) costs "20nY / Mp"
>Also, when I play a decker I want my Table-top computer to have MORE memory
>than by 'deck because I want to store all my programs on it (off-line)
>including firmware and have it available for developing. (Sometimes, it
>really depends on the decker.) So, shouldn't I get a "bulk discount" on
>the
>computer rather than on the deck?

Well if your deck memory is 7¥/Mp then you are.
I might suggest however that in the same way as in this world people who
sell computers will be very careful to max out everything, that might
explain why it's more expensive to buy as a seperate thing. It's all very
well going out and buying a set of DIMs but if you've go no slots free on
your motherboard...


> > My character recently made a sequence of scores on his Allegiance Sigma
> > (14k¥ deck) which were big enough together for him to
> > buy a brand new, "still got the factory sticker
> > on it!" Kraftwerk - 8 (400k¥ deck).
>
>Wow! Could I get some more details, I'd like to know how much you got paid
>for what. Just to see if it fits with my flavor of SR.

I paid over half a mill for it in total, armoured deck casing, RCD Emulator,
every bolt on... And of course my fixer's ten percent. It all went together
quite neatly, I bought the Sigma from a decker my character's fixer ran who
was upgrading, for 10 k¥, no utilities.
I ran it through a bunch of runs, just using it as another avenue for
legwork; it did alright but not well. Eventually I was offered a wetwork job
for the Yakuza, to be carried out within 24 hours, noone else (the
character's fixer and me only) is to hear anything about this. the score was
100k¥ but in carrying out the legwork for the op the character stumbled
through hosts he wouldn't normally have gone near let alone hit, his entire
hacking pool yammed into his detection factor. While in there he stumbled
across a small quantity of paydata, planning permission enquiries... that
got handed to the fixer but led to something bigger...
To put it simply, he stumbled (in the real world) across a disk and a chip,
both containing a spell formula, one a manabolt 8 and the other an
incomplete draconic one which would finish up at about 10-12, The character
then did the job, which went a little pear shaped and only paid 75k¥. He
then payed an electronics expert to open the box, a decker contact to help
cut the IC and a mage contact a percentage to get an idea of what they were
worth. Total score just under 1,000,000¥.

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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Wed Jun 12 13:35:04 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lone Eagle" <loneeagle2061@*******.com>

> >So, shouldn't I get a "bulk discount" on
> >the
> >computer rather than on the deck?

> Well if your deck memory is 7¥/Mp then you are.


No, I'm not. If I buy a Table Top computer with 1000Mp of memory I pay
20nY (= Memory Cost = 20nY / Mp x 1000Mp). If I buy the same amount of
memory for a cyberdeck (bigger than a pocket comp, smaller that a table
top) I pay 7500nY (active memory) and/or 6000nY (storage memory). The
cyberdeck memory is cheaper.

> I might suggest however that in the same way as in this world people who
> sell computers will be very careful to max out everything, that might
> explain why it's more expensive to buy as a seperate thing. It's all very
> well going out and buying a set of DIMs but if you've go no slots free on
> your motherboard...

Yes, I agree there are issues with upgrading a computer... it's not as easy
as just buying the memory, but that's how SR abstracts it. But besides,
I'm not talking about buying memory separately. I'm talking about buying a
single table top computer.

You seem to be reading the cost column for the table top computer as
"Memory Size" which is NOT what is says. It says "Memory Cost" which
is a
few lines down as "20nY x Mp"

> >Wow! Could I get some more details, I'd like to know how much you got
paid
> >for what. Just to see if it fits with my flavor of SR.

<Snip: Story>

Oh, sure, maybe a once in a lifetime score like that. But, that's just not
a standard occurance on my games.

Also IIRC, you can't add you hacking pool to your detection factor.

Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ# 514984
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Thu Jun 13 04:15:00 2002
>Oh, sure, maybe a once in a lifetime score like that. But, that's just not
>a standard occurance on my games.
>
>Also IIRC, you can't add you hacking pool to your detection factor.

Yes you can, IIRC it's in Matrix, every 2 dice of hacking pool increases
your detection factor by 1

The once in a lifetime score is by the way not the issue, I had been almost
ready to buy (through slightly less legitimate channels) the same deck minus
the extras, I'd worked myself up to having almost 100,000¥ cash by the time
I made that score. 100,000¥ in a briefcase to the foreman at the Renraku
goods forwarding dept and Oops someone has knocked over that crate, and four
decks are on the deck, quick pack them back up and get them shipped...
No there were definitely four when we sent it gov.

You can take on Red Eight Hosts on an MPCP 3 deck, (I've done it) you tend
to be in, out, don't bother looking for IC, if it does find you you're
screwed so get out fast.

It depends less what you're running, more how much you want to make it work
for you. You can do the legwork for a run on a sigma. you can make it pay.

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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shannon Buys)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Thu Jun 13 04:45:01 2002
Eagle wrote:

<snipt>
>You can take on Red Eight Hosts on an MPCP 3 deck, (I've done it) you tend
>to be in, out, don't bother looking for IC, if it does find you you're
>screwed so get out fast.

HUH!?! How? What don't I know here?
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Peter Kristiansen)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Thu Jun 13 04:50:01 2002
From: "Lone Eagle"

> >Also IIRC, you can't add you hacking pool to your detection factor.
> Yes you can, IIRC it's in Matrix, every 2 dice of hacking pool
increases
> your detection factor by 1
It's an optional rule listed on page 26 of Matrix.

Peter
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Thu Jun 13 10:55:01 2002
>From: "Shannon Buys" <shannon@******.com>
><snipt>
> >You can take on Red Eight Hosts on an MPCP 3 deck, (I've done it) you
>tend
> >to be in, out, don't bother looking for IC, if it does find you you're
> >screwed so get out fast.
>
>HUH!?! How? What don't I know here?

Allegiance Sigma, Deception 3, Sleaze 3, Mirrors 3, nothing else worth
having.
Int 5, Computer 4, no other applicable skills,
No MathSPU, No Encephelon, No Applicable cyberware bar datajack and memory.
I was after some data in a govt military d'base, managed to get in grab the
data and get out without being crashed. A lot of luck was involved but I did
it.

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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Thu Jun 13 11:05:00 2002
>Allegiance Sigma, Deception 3, Sleaze 3, Mirrors 3, nothing else worth
>having.
>Int 5, Computer 4, no other applicable skills,
>No MathSPU, No Encephelon, No Applicable cyberware bar datajack and memory.
>I was after some data in a govt military d'base, managed to get in grab the
>data and get out without being crashed. A lot of luck was involved but I
>did it.

Smeggin hell! We had an otaku character with stats way bigger than that, and
an attack sprite along for good measure, get completely whopped by an Orange
8 system.

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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Thu Jun 13 12:45:01 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Kristiansen" <psk@*****.stofanet.dk>

> > >Also IIRC, you can't add you hacking pool to your detection factor.
> > Yes you can, IIRC it's in Matrix, every 2 dice of hacking pool
> increases
> > your detection factor by 1
> It's an optional rule listed on page 26 of Matrix.

Yep, my bad. I just remembered the Hacking Pool and IC Suppression rule
and thought you group had messed that one up or something.

Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ# 514984
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Thu Jun 13 12:45:05 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shannon Buys" <shannon@******.com>


> >You can take on Red Eight Hosts on an MPCP 3 deck, (I've done it) you
tend
> >to be in, out, don't bother looking for IC, if it does find you you're
> >screwed so get out fast.

Red-8 hmm.
Let's say we max out the character's int to 9 and give him masking 3 and
sleaze 3 (the best he can run on that MPCP) and put him in masking mode
(masking goes to 4). That gives us a DF of 4 and a Hacking Pool of 4.

If we dump the hacking pool into DF we get 6. With 8 dice against a TN of
6, we get an average of 1.33 successes. The aforementioned super-hacker
with a crappy deck will get 6 dice (computer skill; no hacking pool left)
against a TN of depends on the system test and utilities but somewhere in
the range 8 and 15. Let assume all he does is easy tests. He get an
average of .84 successes against a TN of 8. He and the host are closly
matched, but he'll probably start encountering IC (Proactive White) around
the 3rd test he has to make.

No, doesn't look good for our decker.

Maybe we can do better...
We'll also give him 6 additional hacking dice from a Math-SPU and a
Encephalon. Now we can get the DF up to 7, but that's no harder than a 6,
so we'll just take those 6 extra dice and use them on our tests. Okay, now
we get an averge of 1.68 successes for our easy tests. IC still start
coming out in force around test 3, but maybe we can take them. (Although
our bod/evasion/sensor max out at 3 and at least one of them is at 1.)

Sure, it's possible but, not likely. The Math-SPUs and encephalon probably
cost more than the deck.

No lets take a standard decker int 5, MPCP 5, Masking and Sleaze 5, no
boosting 'ware. ~rating 5 utilities. We'll still use masking mode. to give
us a DF of 6. Our hacking pool in only 3. The system is going to score
about the same, but we get 9 dice against TN of 6 to 14 (again, we'll be
assuming TN 6) that gives us about 1.5 successes. We're no better off
than our second scenario, or are we? Our bod/evasion/sensor and utilities
are higher, so dealing with the IC that start hanging around after 3 turns
is going to be easier.

Trying to hack a Red-8 host in any of these scenarios is sketchy at best.
You probably won't have the time to find any paydata, and you sure has heck
aren't gonna be able to jigger security systems for your pals or hack the
accounting system to get free stuff.

Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ# 514984
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Fri Jun 14 05:15:01 2002
>From: "Da Twink Daddy" <datwinkdaddy@*******.com>
> > >You can take on Red Eight Hosts on an MPCP 3 deck, (I've done it) you
>tend
> > >to be in, out, don't bother looking for IC, if it does find you you're
> > >screwed so get out fast.
>
>Red-8 hmm.
>Let's say we max out the character's int to 9 and give him masking 3 <Snip>
>Trying to hack a Red-8 host in any of these scenarios is sketchy at best.
>You probably won't have the time to find any paydata, and you sure has heck
>aren't gonna be able to jigger security systems for your pals or hack the
>accounting system to get free stuff.

Definitely not, spending time in there was not an option, I went for one
peice of paydata and I was lucky! When I logged off I had IC all over me
along with a decker and another one en route. things were very warm indeed.
but never the less I decked the system and picked up the information I
needed to survive the 'run I was doing.

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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Fri Jun 14 14:45:01 2002
> >From: "Da Twink Daddy" <datwinkdaddy@*******.com>
> > > >You can take on Red Eight Hosts on an MPCP 3 deck, (I've done it) you
>tend to be in, out, don't bother looking for IC, if it does find you you're
>screwed so get out fast.
> >You probably won't have the time to find any paydata

>From: "Lone Eagle" <loneeagle2061@*******.com>
>Definitely not, spending time in there was not an option, I went for one
>peice of paydata and I was lucky!

With karma almost anything is possible, and with inside info and a system
map given to you its much easier. Did you do any small low-paying hack jobs
previous? A small run can pay from 100 to 10,000 nY
(though closer to 1k in my game) and they do add up.

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Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Matirx Gear Questions and Gripes
Date: Mon Jun 17 04:00:01 2002
>From: "Dan Turek" <danturek@*******.com>
>>From: "Lone Eagle" <loneeagle2061@*******.com>
>>Definitely not, spending time in there was not an option, I went for one
>>peice of paydata and I was lucky!
>
>With karma almost anything is possible, and with inside info and a system
>map given to you its much easier. Did you do any small low-paying hack jobs
>previous? A small run can pay from 100 to 10,000 nY
>(though closer to 1k in my game) and they do add up.

Used it for legwork more than anything else, got paid for shooting people
and stealing stuff.

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