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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Dark Knight <ddr4@*******.EDU>
Subject: Matrix copyright
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:14:33 -0400
Hi hi all!

This is my first mail for the list, hopefully I make a good entry move *grin*

I have a question regarding copyright, just out of my curiousity. Here it is:
How much does FASA have the copyright for the Matrix..? do they have it
only for the name, or do they also have the copyright for the Matrix
interface itself (such as.. icons, hosts, security programs, and its very
own 3-d world)?

Well, I think that's about it, hopefully this question doesn't show my
stupidity *grin*

Cheers!
Message no. 2
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 17:31:38 -0400
|> From: Dark Knight
|> Sent: May 10, 1998 12:15 PM
|> Subject: Matrix copyright

|> This is my first mail for the list, hopefully I make a good
|> entry move *grin*

Well, your entry was okay, though you were not in perfect form, so I'll
give you a 7 out of 10. Hi.


|> How much does FASA have the copyright for the Matrix..? do they have it
|> only for the name, or do they also have the copyright for the Matrix
|> interface itself (such as.. icons, hosts, security programs, and its very
|> own 3-d world)?

I will try and decipher your intent here, because it is not clear from
your words. First of all, FASA does not have the word Matrix copyrighted,
you cannot copyright a word. Nor can you copyright an interface. What you
can do is trademark a word, if it is the name of a product, such as
Shadowrun. Shadowrun is a trademark of FASA, but the word is not protected
by copyright.

I do not believe they have attempted to patent their interface, seeing as
it is not real, so the only thing they could do with that is copyright the
description of it. The same rules apply to all the terms used here, icons,
hosts, security programs, none of which are trademarked, but the
descriptions of these in Shadowrun are protected by copyright.

You can make use of any of these concepts in your own prose, but if you
use such terms that have been trademarked then you must make a notice of
such when you write the term. EG: Shadowrun(tm) is a great game by FASA.

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
http://www.dsuper.net/~katt
Message no. 3
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:08:13 +1000
> I will try and decipher your intent here, because it is not clear from
> your words. First of all, FASA does not have the word Matrix copyrighted,
> you cannot copyright a word. Nor can you copyright an interface. What you
> can do is trademark a word, if it is the name of a product, such as
> Shadowrun. Shadowrun is a trademark of FASA, but the word is not protected
> by copyright.

And I`m pretty sure that Matrix is one of the words FASA has
trademarked... I don`t have VR2.0 handy, but I think if you check the
back, it says so.

Lady Jestyr

- I'm in touch with my Inner Klingon... -
| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |
Message no. 4
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:05:39 -0400
|> From: Lady Jestyr
|> Sent: May 10, 1998 6:08 PM
|> Subject: Re: Matrix copyright

|> And I`m pretty sure that Matrix is one of the words FASA has
|> trademarked... I don`t have VR2.0 handy, but I think if you check the
|> back, it says so.

Yes, it is possible, which means that one cannot use that term when
refering to a computer net without acknowledging their trademark. That's
okay, I prefer using the term network anyways.

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
http://www.dsuper.net/~katt
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:06:41 +0100
Lady Jestyr said on 8:08/11 May 98...

> And I`m pretty sure that Matrix is one of the words FASA has
> trademarked... I don`t have VR2.0 handy, but I think if you check the
> back, it says so.

It says so in nearly every SR book, including on the back of VR 2.0 (I do
have it at hand, and just checked). Basically, the words "Shadowrun"
and "Matrix" are registered trademarks of FASA Corporation, and the other
book titles are claimed as trademarks by them. (Just like every other game
publisher does. I only wish I knew what they're hoping to achieve with
it...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
De ene ramp is de andere waard.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 6
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:44:07 -0400
At 11:06 AM 5/11/98 +0100, you wrote:

>It says so in nearly every SR book, including on the back of VR 2.0 (I do
>have it at hand, and just checked). Basically, the words "Shadowrun"
>and "Matrix" are registered trademarks of FASA Corporation, and the other
>book titles are claimed as trademarks by them. (Just like every other game
>publisher does. I only wish I knew what they're hoping to achieve with
>it...)

Well, the thought behind trademarking certain names and phrases and the
like is to attempt to prevent anyone else from making non-FASA approved
SR/BT/ED materials AND making money off of those materials.

So it's to protect the game and their cash flow.

I mean, you wouldn't be too happy if another Gurth suddenly showed up and
started acting like an idiot, now would you Gurth?

Erik J.


"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
Message no. 7
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:25:38 -0500
----------
> From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
>
> I mean, you wouldn't be too happy if another Gurth suddenly showed up
and
> started acting like an idiot, now would you Gurth?

How would we tell the difference?
Message no. 8
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:23:23 -0400
Lady Jestyr wrote:
>And I`m pretty sure that Matrix is one of the words FASA has
>trademarked.

That's correct. From what I remember, they trademarked it long ago for a
product that got killed (before seeing the light of day). They reused it
for SR.

Wordman
Message no. 9
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:44:46 -0600
At 15:25 11/05/98 -0500, Nexx wrote:

>> From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
>>
>> I mean, you wouldn't be too happy if another Gurth suddenly showed up
>>and
>> started acting like an idiot, now would you Gurth?
>
>How would we tell the difference?

Well, the Gurth that's my friend seems like a perfectly normal non-idiotic
person to me..

-Adam J
-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
Message no. 10
From: Wraith <wraith@************.COM>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:10:27 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>


>Lady Jestyr wrote:
>>And I`m pretty sure that Matrix is one of the words FASA has
>>trademarked.
>
>That's correct. From what I remember, they trademarked it long ago for a
>product that got killed (before seeing the light of day). They reused it
>for SR.
>

Just checked the back of a couple of Sourcebooks. Cybertechnology, The
Grimoire, Fields of Fire, Lone Star are all also trademarked. I assume they
trademark Sourcebook names (although maybe that type of trademark is for the
INFORMATION contained within the books...any lawyers out there?)

Wraith
Message no. 11
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:42:42 -0400
|> From: Adam J
|> Sent: May 11, 1998 8:45 PM
|> Subject: Re: Matrix copyright

|> Well, the Gurth that's my friend seems like a perfectly normal
|> non-idiotic
|> person to me..

Well, then you should have him start posting to this M.L. and that way we'd
know. <gdr>

-M
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
http://www.dsuper.net/~katt
Message no. 12
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 02:41:09 -0400
Once upon a time, Wraith wrote;

>Just checked the back of a couple of Sourcebooks. Cybertechnology, The
>Grimoire, Fields of Fire, Lone Star are all also trademarked. I assume they
>trademark Sourcebook names (although maybe that type of trademark is for the
>INFORMATION contained within the books...any lawyers out there?)

You would trademark a word or title.
Contents, images and the like would be copywrited.

Have fun, open up a White Wolf product (especially Vampire stuff) and
just look at their long line of trademarks. And I thought T$R was bad
copywriting Nazi in an Indiana Jones game.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:46:59 +0100
Erik Jameson said on 14:44/11 May 98...

> Well, the thought behind trademarking certain names and phrases and the
> like is to attempt to prevent anyone else from making non-FASA approved
> SR/BT/ED materials AND making money off of those materials.
>
> So it's to protect the game and their cash flow.

I understand that. However what I don't quite understand is the, well,
pre-emptive strike mentality used with these trademarks. Game books
_always_ seem to get "[book name] is a trademark of [game company]"
printed onto them, even when there is no reason to suspect somebody will
try to make some money off of [game company]'s product. Sure, if I were a
game company I most likely wouldn't want another company bringing out
books for my game without my permission, but I don't see what that has to
do with trademarking the names of sourcebooks. Trademarking the game's
name I can understand (to a degree), but each individual book...?

> I mean, you wouldn't be too happy if another Gurth suddenly showed up
> and started acting like an idiot, now would you Gurth?

That'd make things twice as bad for the rest of the list, wouldn't it? ;)
However I don't think that's a good comparison, really.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
De ene ramp is de andere waard.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:46:59 +0100
Nexx said on 15:25/11 May 98...

> > I mean, you wouldn't be too happy if another Gurth suddenly showed up and
> > started acting like an idiot, now would you Gurth?
>
> How would we tell the difference?

By the message headers?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
De ene ramp is de andere waard.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
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Message no. 15
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:28:17 -0500
----------
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Nexx said on 15:25/11 May 98...
>
> > > I mean, you wouldn't be too happy if another Gurth suddenly showed
up and
> > > started acting like an idiot, now would you Gurth?
> >
> > How would we tell the difference?
>
> By the message headers?

Oh, come on Garth, you can come up with something better than that...
Message no. 16
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:36:15 -0700
----------
> From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
> Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 11:41 PM
>
> Once upon a time, Wraith wrote;
>
> >Just checked the back of a couple of Sourcebooks. Cybertechnology, The
> >Grimoire, Fields of Fire, Lone Star are all also trademarked. I assume
they
> >trademark Sourcebook names (although maybe that type of trademark is for
the
> >INFORMATION contained within the books...any lawyers out there?)
>
> You would trademark a word or title.
> Contents, images and the like would be copywrited.
>
> Have fun, open up a White Wolf product (especially Vampire stuff) and
> just look at their long line of trademarks. And I thought T$R was bad
> copywriting Nazi in an Indiana Jones game.
>

*spit take!*

Hmmm... I wonder if Vampire copyrighted the word "goth". =)
Message no. 17
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:48:20 -0400
Once upon a time, Gurth wrote;

>I understand that. However what I don't quite understand is the, well,
>pre-emptive strike mentality used with these trademarks. Game books
>_always_ seem to get "[book name] is a trademark of [game company]"
>printed onto them, even when there is no reason to suspect somebody will
>try to make some money off of [game company]'s product. Sure, if I were a
>game company I most likely wouldn't want another company bringing out
>books for my game without my permission, but I don't see what that has to
>do with trademarking the names of sourcebooks. Trademarking the game's
>name I can understand (to a degree), but each individual book...?

Because if you don't, I will then you would have to pay me for using my
trademark on your book. Corp law, you gotta luv it.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 18
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:52:04 -0400
|> From: Nexx Sent: May 12, 1998 11:28 AM
|> Subject: Re: Matrix copyright

|> > By the message headers?
|>
|> Oh, come on Garth, you can come up with something better than that...

Yes, the _real_ Gurth could, but this Garth(sic) guy obviously could not.
See you discovered him already. Gurth should sue this imposter for Trademark
violation.

-M
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
http://www.dsuper.net/~katt
Message no. 19
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:26:39 -0400
Once upon a time, Jeremy "Bolthy" Zimmerman wrote;

>> You would trademark a word or title.
>> Contents, images and the like would be copywrited.
>>
>> Have fun, open up a White Wolf product (especially Vampire stuff) and
>> just look at their long line of trademarks. And I thought T$R was bad
>> copywriting Nazi in an Indiana Jones game.
>>
>
>*spit take!*
>
>Hmmm... I wonder if Vampire copyrighted the word "goth". =)

They trademarked Gothic-Punk<tm>. I've got the trademark for goth.

-MC23, who is now trying to look spooky-
B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"If I was born in the 17th century, I wouldn't have to turtle wax the
van."
-Azreal Abyss, Goth Talk (SNL)

I am MC23
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:46:34 +0100
MC23 said on 12:48/12 May 98...

> Because if you don't, I will then you would have to pay me for using my
> trademark on your book. Corp law, you gotta luv it.

Ah, now it becomes sort of clear to me... And once more I'm glad I live in
Europe :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
De ene ramp is de andere waard.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 21
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:38:45 -0400
At 09:46 PM 5/12/98 +0100, you wrote:
>MC23 said on 12:48/12 May 98...
>
>> Because if you don't, I will then you would have to pay me for using my
>> trademark on your book. Corp law, you gotta luv it.
>
>Ah, now it becomes sort of clear to me... And once more I'm glad I live in
>Europe :)

Actually Gurth, being in Europe might not help you there. Intellectual
property laws (which is what this is about) are somewhat similar between
the US and Europe. There are also a number of treaties that essentially
draw these laws across national borders.

So just because you are in the Netherlands doesn't mean you can escape from
US copyright law entirely. Just as I, technically, am not automatically
free from European copyright laws. If there's an intellectual property
treaty between the nations, you're screwed. Technically it's your own
government that doing the screwing, but the other nation/aggrieved parties
usually put a lot of pressure on.

> De ene ramp is de andere waard.

Okay, I'll bite. What's this bit of Dutch mean?

BTW, I think Grolsch made several million special cans for Queen's Day
consumption. I heard they were supposed to have the first six verses of
the national anthem on them. I'm mildly suprised you hadn't heard that.

Erik J.


"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
Message no. 22
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:06:50 -0500
> |> Oh, come on Garth, you can come up with something better than that...
>
> Yes, the _real_ Gurth could, but this Garth(sic) guy obviously
could not.
> See you discovered him already. Gurth should sue this imposter for
Trademark
> violation.

Wondered if someone would catch that... that "Garth" is what happens when
you accidentally hit Enter while your mailer is spellchecking.
Message no. 23
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:47:59 -0500
On Tue, 12 May 1998 20:06:50 -0500 Nexx <nexx@********.NET> writes:
>> |> Oh, come on Garth, you can come up with something better than
that...

>> Yes, the _real_ Gurth could, but this Garth(sic) guy obviously
>> could not.

>> See you discovered him already. Gurth should sue this imposter for
Trademark
>> violation.

>Wondered if someone would catch that... that "Garth" is what happens
>when
>you accidentally hit Enter while your mailer is spellchecking.

At least you didn't accidentally change the subject of a thread from
Cyberware: where do you put the bateries? to Where do you put the
bakeries? ...

I thought you intentionally changed the name for an evil-twin effect ...

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum)

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Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:49:34 +0100
Erik Jameson said on 17:38/12 May 98...

> >Ah, now it becomes sort of clear to me... And once more I'm glad I live in
> >Europe :)
>
> Actually Gurth, being in Europe might not help you there. Intellectual
> property laws (which is what this is about) are somewhat similar between
> the US and Europe. There are also a number of treaties that essentially
> draw these laws across national borders.

What I mean is that that kind of thing (trademarking someone else's
property and then sueing them) isn't done here; AFAIK the judge would
likely put the party that owned the thing first in the right, especially
if they'd owned it for a long time.

The only company I can think of to which this probably doesn't apply is
the Dutch postal services -- they've trademarked just about everything
they do or own, like the Dutch word for "post office"...

> > De ene ramp is de andere waard.
>
> Okay, I'll bite. What's this bit of Dutch mean?

"One disaster is worth another." A slightly changed version of the saying
"one service is worth another."

> BTW, I think Grolsch made several million special cans for Queen's Day
> consumption. I heard they were supposed to have the first six verses of
> the national anthem on them. I'm mildly suprised you hadn't heard that.

I had heard of it, but I'm not very interesting in drinking beer so I
haven't seen them myself; I expect they were orange in color, though.
BTW, I somehow don't think there were six verses on a single can... it'd
have to be in very small print :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
There was radiation. Garbage. Pestidices, toxic waste, and free enterprise.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 25
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:00:13 -0400
|> From: Alfredo B Alves
|> Sent: May 12, 1998 9:48 PM
|> Subject: Re: Matrix copyright

|> I thought you intentionally changed the name for an evil-twin effect ...

Yeah, Nexx, had you kept quiet about your goof, you would have been
thought brilliant, but no...

-M
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
http://www.dsuper.net/~katt
Message no. 26
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Matrix copyright
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:49:09 -0500
----------
> From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>

> |> I thought you intentionally changed the name for an evil-twin effect
..
>
> Yeah, Nexx, had you kept quiet about your goof, you would have been
> thought brilliant, but no...

Weird habit I have. When I fuck up, I admit it.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Matrix copyright, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!